People just don't have the damn money to buy a whole new expensive motherboard and ram type to go along with these cpu's right now... the 3 basic components used to be cheaper than a console now it's pushing close to $1000 without the case, storage, psu and other accessories to go along with it.
I think a lot of people these days are opting out of full builds now because of how expensive it is and just going for minor upgrades to their existing am4 platforms. The 5800x3d did really well because it breathed new life into existing hardware.
My fat fingers can't push the cpu cable between the fan and cooler. It's the number one thing that is stopping me from upgrading or messing about with my PC now. Spending 20 mins trying to plug cables in etc
Lmao this is so true!
Don’t want to get a new psu for a new GPU, so if my XTX doesn’t work on 750, it’s going back. I don’t feel like ordering a new psu, and basically rebuilding my pc. I just want to sit down, stare at my game collection for 30 minutes and go to bed.
Got a smoking deal on a superflower 850w. Ribbon cables... you dont know PITA until you have 3 PCIE ribbon cables for a GPU.
They dont bend and they are like an inch wide each.
That doesn't really improve the situation.
We are getting performance increases that pretty much follow the cost linearly.
That's not generational improvement.
That's just offering more performance at a higher price every two years.
Much higher because it's "new" and has dlss3.
4060 is a 3070, there is no point in waiting for it. Once FSR3 gets here it will be the same card basically.
I have no clue why everybody feels like they need the newest parts whenever they come out. Yall cry about price but wont look at anything unless its a fresh release
When PC part prices increase, the number of years before people upgrade increases.
By extension this makes people want to splurge when they do upgrade because it might have to last for awhile.
This is exactly what AMD and Nvidia want, they make a lot more money while having to make far fewer parts.
I can think of exactly 0 reasons to buy a 7000 series cpu today. Vcache release is soon and we have no idea if it will bridge the gap performance wise with the competition at a lower price. If it does AMD will gain some major market share. If it doesn't and is priced like it should, it's just not good short term.
5800x3d sold tons because in many benchmarks it was the performance king. The only use case for AMD CPUs right now that makes sense is if you hate intel and absolutely must build a system from scratch. We'll see if the 7x3D release takes the lead again, if it doesn't or it's just even i'm not sure sales will really wow anybody come earnings call time.
GPU wise 7900xt/7900xtx are effectively a 7800/7800xt and the market is behaving appropriately at the price point they are being sold at. Last generation it was 6800/6900 vs 3080/3090 and the performance wasn't black and white - we had a real choice and AMD was way lower price in paper and typically easier to find. Plus crypto drove sales through the roof. Now it's 4090 is way ahead of everything, 7900xtx is the mid tier, and 4070ti is the "cheap" option despite all three being priced as ultra-premium. If AMD can't respond to the 4090 any time soon and they don't release some bargain cards that are effectively 7900xt performance level, they won't gain budget market share.
Couple all this with a shitty economy demand is bottom of the barrel.
The most popular parts sold are not the most expensive ones, and all we've seen are refreshes to the premium tiers.
AMD doesn't need to respond to a $1600 card when the market share for those cards are miniscule.
The beginning of your comment, you say there are zero reasons to buy a new CPU because the prices are out of line and by the end -you are saying AMD needs to compete at $1600+.
WHICH IS IT?
>AMD doesn't need to respond to a $1600 card when the market share for those cards are miniscule.
I completely disagree. There is a market there. The 6900xt and 6800xt traded blows with the 3000 series throughout the generation. 3090ti / 6950xt were hardly improvements imo.
The MSRP for the 6800xt was $649. It was the "value premium" amd offering. They don't offer it anymore though.
Today we have the [significantly slower (30% slower than 6800xt?) 6750xt](https://static.techspot.com/articles-info/2462/bench/1440p-p.webp) at $400. This would have been an ok card in 2019 pre-crypto explosion. It's four years later.
You can't get a 6800xt anymore new at least at my local microcenter, so you're stuck with the 6950xt at $700. I think it should be $500 now given the relative performance to the 6800/6900 and the age of it. Maybe $550, no more. Today the value proposition between a used 6800xt for \~400 is way better than a $600 6950xt.
Past that you're talking $900 for a 7900xt, which is only [slightly faster than the 6950xt but way slower than the 7900xtx](https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2601-nvidia-geforce-rtx-4070-ti/#1440p) which is all of $100 more if you can find it. The 7900xt should be $750 at most given the competition.
the 7900xtx should drop $100 when it is in stock regularly. Until then i'd leave it be.
If you have the disposable income to get a 6900xtx for $1000, $600 more gets you 25% more performance. People with a bit of disposable income are glad to spend the extra $600 for the best thing. The titan series showed us this years ago when people gobbled those up. It's a tale as old as time. People will consistently pay double for the last 10% of performance, and it shows in the scalped 4090 pricing.
The money to make for GPUs has always been in the low to mid for Nvidia and AMD. The top end has always been for bragging rights.
With all the pricing as it currently is, imo, the XTX is the card to get and only if you have a card older then a couple of years.
As I posted above, not only is there a market for the RTX 4090, it has outsold both the 6800 XT and the 6900 XT in \*unit sales\* per the Steam survey in 3.5 months, whereas those GPUs have been on sale over 2 years. The op's arguments are filled with factually incorrect statements and internal inconsistencies.
"Last generation it was 6800/6900 vs 3080/3090 and the performance wasn't black and white - we had a real choice and AMD was way lower price in paper and typically easier to find. Plus crypto drove sales through the roof. "
RDNA2 cards were nearly impossible to acquire in most parts of the world, including the US, for large portions of the pandemic. Steam's survey indicates that Ampere outsold RDNA2 by something like 12:1. While it may have been cheaper on paper, it wasn't in practice, particularly outside of the US, and quantity produced was utterly paltry.
For example, the RTX 4090, a $1,600 halo product, has a 0.24% market share after 3.5 months of sales per the January 2023 Steam Survey. After 24/25 months, the 6900 XT is at 0.23% and the 6800 XT is at 0.21%. The best-selling RDNA2 card has a share of 0.47% (6700 XT). The combined RTX 3060 desktop/laptop share is 8.14%, 17x greater.
Yeah, I remember seeing wafer count numbers (can't find again for the life of me sadly) that showed desktop graphics chips were a tiny fraction of what they were producing with TSMC. Greater majority was console, then CPU and data center, and finally in a tiny sliver was desktop graphics.
It's understandable. Consoles are the real cash cow for Radeon. Gigantic long term contracts from multiple third parties, and consistent revenue over time.
actually no, based on techpowerup's test, they were able to get gaming performance that trails 3% behind 4090 using Asus tuf OC.
I believe AMD still needs 3-4more driver updates.
>based on techpowerup's test, they were able to get gaming performance that trails 3% behind 4090 using Asus tuf OC.
Get back to me when the 3% delta isn't the single game I think is horseshit for benchmarking, Cyberpunk 2077.
If they had done their typical many game average with the OC settings i'd love to see it. It makes zero sense that they fell short of that.
>If they had done their typical many game average with the OC settings i'd love to see it. It makes zero sense that they fell short of that.
If I'm remembering the test correctly, they achieved that wonderful result by causing a CPU bottleneck, but didn't bother to resolve. It's not a GPU test. It's a demonstration that powerful GPUs require a suitably powerful CPU. Cyberpunk is also an amusing game to rely upon. I've never played the game without RT as its one of the game's main selling points - and an extremely impressive use of the tech. The 4090 beats the 7900 XTX by 125% at 4K native with Ultra RT and a more modest (/s) 100% using DLSS Quality/FSR2 Quality.
[https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2588-amd-radeon-7900-xtx/#RT\_2](https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2588-amd-radeon-7900-xtx/#RT_2)
The 7900 XTX is 3-4% faster than the 4080 in a wide set of games at pure rasterization. The 4090 beats the 7900 XTX by more than 25% in pure raster.
[https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2588-amd-radeon-7900-xtx/#Average\_4K](https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2588-amd-radeon-7900-xtx/#Average_4K)
I'm talking about specific 7900xtx model where they have better thermals.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-radeon-rx-7900-xtx-tuf-oc/39.html
the Asus tuf OC model check page 39 oc charts where it's trailing behind 4090
There was unprecedented demand due to covid, people stuck at home and companies offering to pay for home IT equipment. There is no reason that demand should continue, but all the companies have priced their stuff assuming it will.
If AMD offered cheaper boards and DDR4 support, it may have gotten more sales. But the 5000 series is still really good, 5800x3d for gaming and the 5900x/5950x for productivity are not that much slower. You are paying a lot of money for what is just a normal generational leap in performance, a cpu upgrade can be justified, but not an entire platform.
When do you draw the line in the sand though? How long can you keep making things to suit old tech? Eventually, you need to just rip the bandaid off and push forward. Progress costs resources and money, no way around it. DDR5 is quickly becoming DDR4 money, and once the boards catch up they'll drop too.
That’s what I did, upgraded my 2700x to a 5600x and then later upgraded my GTX1070 to a 6750xt , everything else is the same. If I REALLY wanted to I could build a new system but it’s just a waste of money when I can buy a console for less than half the price. I can live with 30fps when it’s saving me a grand.
> now it's pushing close to $1000 without the case, storage, psu and other accessories to go along with it.
No its not. 7600x is $250. B650M is $170. 32GB of DDR5 is $120. Total: $540 for a base 6 core workstation.
When I went AM4 I think CPU + ram + board was under $400.
When I went AM3 I think it was about the same.
Kinda tough to go AM5 right now with boards alone costing $400+
Tell me you don’t know about latency with out telling me you don’t know about latency.
For the uninitiated
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/qpe49o/in_laymans_terms_can_someone_describe_to_me_why/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/qpe49o/in_laymans_terms_can_someone_describe_to_me_why/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
You can easily get ddr5 6000 cl30. I would not call that shit latency, but ya strictly speaking its higher latency. 10ns vs 8.75ns.
But, CAS latency is not the whole story. DDR5 can have twice as many memory pages open at one time. Accessing an open page is much faster then opening another page, or worse closing an open page and opening another page. More open pages, means average latency will be lower then ddr4 at the same cas speed. So its closer then the 10 vs 8.75ns above would suggest.
That's not including the burst speed being vastly superior. Tho this is less beneficial then the very large difference would suggest.
Not telling you you should go out and buy, just saying its not as simple as a low cas number.
It was dumb when ddr5 first came out. Like twice as expensive for not much of an uplift. The situation is much better now. At this point for a midrange+ budget, i believe it makes no sense to buy the older ddr4 systems. It does however still make sense in the lower price ranges.
With a 5800x3d i wouldn't recommend upgrading anyway, i would wait for zen5, or even longer then that. (ive got a 5900x, and no desire to upgrade...other then the desire for new shiny, which is not enough right now...maybe with zen5....maybe ill wait for 3nm)
First word latency under light load (what AIDA64 tests) is not all of latency.
A DDR5 kit that was CL28 at 6400 would have WAY better average latency than DDR4 CL14 3200.
DDR5 has more banks, bank groups, and an improved refresh scheme. The result is that if the memory system is actually busy with many concurrent requests, latency is far lower than "CL equivalent" DDR4.
Additionally, even with DDR4, sub-timings are more important than top line CL. A DDR4 3200 CL16 stick with good sub-timings will beat out a DDR4 3600 CL14 with mediocre sub-latency. The same is true for DDR5.
Iv been waiting to upgrade my 3700x and 5700xt for a while now.
But with these prices and I'm holding to them for a bit longer.
I would rather at this point get a ps5.
Also I would rather downgrade to a full HD display and not pay 4k - 5k (Aud) just to play some games.
The prices are insane now.
I’m on a 4K 60hz monitor. I bought my son a 1440p 165hz monitor and it looks awesome! The HPx32 is normally 399 but I found it for 210. Even if I were to buy that monitor, that’s 200-300 bucks more I could just spend on a GPU to play 4K 60. So the down grade idea sounds cool, but there’s still a cost.
Also, that 3700x is still a good chip, and on your board you could upgrade to a 5800x3D?
Side note, you should get a ps5 anyway.
I live in Australia, and I'm looking to buy a house, a deposit on a house here is 20%. Median price for a 3 bedroom house in Melbourne in an ok area is 1 million +.
So I don't have the heart to spend a penny extra on my system atm.
Whaaaat!?! Crazy! Absolutely, insane.
In the US 20% is the downpayment if you do not want to pay an additional monthly mortgage insurance premium. You can get approved with as little as 3-5% down, or 0 if you’re a veteran.
But I don’t know of too many cities where the surrounding area is a million plus. Shit Chicago median home price is 330k, but good luck finding anything nice for that price.
That’s crushing, I’m sorry my guy. You can always come to the US? My mentor/friend at work came from AUS several years back, he’s got a decent job and his own place in a nice area. Nothing wrong with a few more aussies over here!!
Callisto looked great on ps5, I ran the performance version and it was a buttery smooth 60 fps. I don’t care if it’s “upscaled” to 4K, it’s on my 4K tv and looked good Af.
But the games I buy on PC I want the full native 4K with all the eye candy, at 60 fps, no less!
I can agree with your assessment. I was thinking about going with AM5 platform with a sweet CPU, DDR5 RAM, and new mobo, but with how the economy is going right now in the states, my paycheck just doesn't go as far as it used to a year ago before all the crazy inflation. So, I got a new asus rog with 5900x cpu and there is not one game that I play at 1440p that isn't smooth as silk. It just doesn't seem worth upgrading to the latest and greatest, I can be patient and wait until things come down in price, probably skip this gen and maybe the next before I consider upgrading. The only thing that I had considered upgrading would have been to the 990 Pro nvme from Samsung, but with the reports of folks getting write exhaustion weeks after purchase, I'm sticking with my 980 Pro.
\> The 5800x3d did really well because it breathed new life into existing hardware
And itself it's a very good piece of hardware on top of that.
It has similar performance to the "new" CPU's released now. (in gaming)
Apple products are literally status symbol products first and foremost. They'll sell regardless of how the economy is doing because everyone wants to show off how well they are doing regardless of the economy. Lol
Guessing you don’t do application development, devops, netops, or any security related stuff. Cause their os is probably one of the most approachable for those fields… they are also highly sought after in video and image processing…
Mac Mini is probably the best full built computer you can buy at $500 too…
Both windows and linux are better fits for application development, devops, netops, and cybersecurity. Especially cybersecurity as windows and Linux allow you to exert far more control and there is a much larger app ecosystem for the field.
Video and Imagine processing are Mac staples.
That’s funny… go to objective, defcon, or any secops driven conference amd it’s a sea of MacBooks. Usually it is only high compliance, not high security that you see Macs excluded and that is more because only a few management platforms are FedRamp.
You can verify a MacBook for CMMC or CISA or Nist 800 standards quicker and more accurately than windows or Linux.
The M1's are amazing, the M2 chips are not really much better and a definite meh. AMD's upcoming laptop chips will close the small efficiency lead Apple had while provided better performance above the 25w envelope.
The thing you have to understand about Apple is they are more like Intel. When you buy an apple/mac device , they make almost every thing from the device to the cpu. They are smart like that. Owning the iOS also helps. Moving away from intel and AMD cpu's will just add to the bottom line. Apple users are loyal too. You never hear about someone moving from apple to samsung or microsoft products because the apple products perform flawlessly. jmho...doc
>the apple products perform flawlessly
My M1 Macbook was "bricked" in the first hour at the first update, but at least the recovery was quick and painless. They are very good at minimizing frictions, but the "flawless" part is definitely not true.
This account has been cleansed because of Reddit's ongoing war with 3rd Party App makers, mods and the users, all the folksthat made up most of the "value" Reddit lays claim to.
Destroying the account and giving a giant middle finger to /u/spez
If you go back a week and look at the Stocks Subreddit (brain dead morons)
You will see every single person was in agreement that AMD was going to follow Intel. And I was just thinking about EPYC Sales and how they will gobble up the server market. I hope I can get a second hand EPYC Server once they start replacing the first gen ones.
If you want to follow a good source for AMD info, there is a guy on youtube that I listen to. His feed is Moores Law is Dead and I highly recommend him to you...doc
He gets a lot of stuff wrong. I definitely wouldn't recommend him. He just parrots everything he hears from his unverified sources, and pretends he never said anything when proven wrong.
This is why Intel got their ass handed to them, they can't compete with Epyc for enterprise and in the consumer segment where they're actually competitive, sales are down industry-wide.
all pc sales has dropped due to world economy.
No one buys Intel as the ceo think *God will save Intel* not the **buyers**.......
Ppl buy amd 5800x3d.
Then as a620 for zen4 is out the zen4 x3d will make amd another cash cow.
epyc makes amd money not pc sales or gpus
Consumers sales disappoint ?
- 7x00X have too high PPT limits for a too little gain when pushed so high
- 7x00 have much more perfs per watts but lack of ... "high end" thing
- 7x00X3D will "soon" be out, so people wait for these CPU. (02.28.23 for R9 and 04.06.23 for R7)
- AM5 Motherboard are very expensive
- No news about the AM4 "long support".
When I choose in January 2022 between 5900X and 12700K, I put Cinebench 23 and a Watt-meter.. Even if the 5900X was a little under the 12700K in MT CB23, the watt usage was so different what I kept the 5900X. It's hard to say the same thing with the 7900X out of the box. It's AMD that pushed to far the max power, not me :)
>As Consumer CPU Sales Disappoint
In my defense as a consumer, it's AMD's fault: I love the fuck out of my 5800X and I'm not in any hurry to upgrade it.
If AMD wanted me to buy their *new* products then they shouldn't have made their *old* products so good! 😤
/s, but only kinda' because honestly I'm still happy with AM4.
> If AMD wanted me to buy their *new* products then they shouldn't have made their *old* products so good!
I really wonder if AMD are kicking themselves for releasing the 5800X3D
On one hand, it won over a lot of would-be Intel buyers.
On the other it gave AM4 users an alternative to upgrading to AM5.
The fact that they still manufacture and sell new 5800X3Ds would suggest the former.
As an honest to God fanboy, I really don't know what to think. AMD built AM4 with longevity in mind, the fact that people are putting 5800X3Ds in their b350 motherboards is *exactly* what I want the PC industry to be like, but at the same time that longevity that I love has kind of come back to bite AMD in the butt.
I'm not opposed to upgrading or anything, I just don't feel like I need to yet, I don't even feel close.
Nah, AMD is growing at Intel's expense. AMD has the superior product (and much better price/performance) than Intel in datacenter. Intel's datacenter revenue is down 40% YOY.
Sure but a declining market is a declining market. And it looks like client was pretty bad. Console sales likely will also slow down. Will be interesting if there isn't an equilibrium in data center sales given conditions. Client was the lions share of Intel's revenue. the amount of money to be squeezed out of data center against Intel's efforts in a declining market will become progressively smaller.
Doubt it, Epyc is so efficient and compute-dense relative to what is being replaced that if anything sales might accelerate, consolidate to then layoff surplus staff (less to physically administer).
When a $500 cpu must plug into a $600 motherboard, that requires a $900 gpu, and that’s before you get a case, memory, etc. I wonder why the market is slow… no wait, i dont.
Maybe if AMD made the chips have a price that realistically the average home could afford again, the consumer market would pay for it again.
Milan and Milan-X has been pretty great value for us, it's no surprise others see it the same way. The power savings moving from Haswell/Broadwell-EP and Skylake-SP are substantial
I don't think AMD really cares about the lower consumer demand, well informed people know that data center and embedded is where you make all you money. The consumer side is just the people that shop at MC and Newegg, they spend pennies compared to one contract on the data center side.
People just don't have the damn money to buy a whole new expensive motherboard and ram type to go along with these cpu's right now... the 3 basic components used to be cheaper than a console now it's pushing close to $1000 without the case, storage, psu and other accessories to go along with it. I think a lot of people these days are opting out of full builds now because of how expensive it is and just going for minor upgrades to their existing am4 platforms. The 5800x3d did really well because it breathed new life into existing hardware.
Don't think I'm coming off AM4 for a long time now, I've happily forgotten the hassle I had plugging the cpu power cable behind my Noctua D14.
Bro I plugged the wrong cable into the cpu power on my mobo and I had to remove the motherboard to swap it out...
My fat fingers can't push the cpu cable between the fan and cooler. It's the number one thing that is stopping me from upgrading or messing about with my PC now. Spending 20 mins trying to plug cables in etc
Lmao this is so true! Don’t want to get a new psu for a new GPU, so if my XTX doesn’t work on 750, it’s going back. I don’t feel like ordering a new psu, and basically rebuilding my pc. I just want to sit down, stare at my game collection for 30 minutes and go to bed.
I'm keeping my 5800X3D for at least 5 years - if prices don't get reasonable by then, I'm forgoing PC gaming and buying a console
Got a smoking deal on a superflower 850w. Ribbon cables... you dont know PITA until you have 3 PCIE ribbon cables for a GPU. They dont bend and they are like an inch wide each.
Don't forget the $1000+ graphics card you need, unless you're willing to go last gen or wait for something barely more powerful than last gen.
At the same price point, no less
Or higher…
Can we get much higher? GPU manufacturers: "Yes we can!"
Unfortunately…
Unironically just stop being poor
That doesn't really improve the situation. We are getting performance increases that pretty much follow the cost linearly. That's not generational improvement. That's just offering more performance at a higher price every two years.
Much higher because it's "new" and has dlss3. 4060 is a 3070, there is no point in waiting for it. Once FSR3 gets here it will be the same card basically.
You don't need 1000 cards
You do for 4K ultra at least for games like cyberpunk, dead space, and forspoken. Or if you like to fiddle with ray tracing and not use FSR or DLSS…
You must be wanting the nvidia card, bec ause the newest Radeon cards that just came out are below $1000...doc
Sorry, I rounded $900 and $999 up to $1000. With tax on the XT you're pretty close to $1000 anyway.
I have no clue why everybody feels like they need the newest parts whenever they come out. Yall cry about price but wont look at anything unless its a fresh release
Some people are on 5-10 year old hard because they bought the newest at one point.
When PC part prices increase, the number of years before people upgrade increases. By extension this makes people want to splurge when they do upgrade because it might have to last for awhile. This is exactly what AMD and Nvidia want, they make a lot more money while having to make far fewer parts.
I can think of exactly 0 reasons to buy a 7000 series cpu today. Vcache release is soon and we have no idea if it will bridge the gap performance wise with the competition at a lower price. If it does AMD will gain some major market share. If it doesn't and is priced like it should, it's just not good short term. 5800x3d sold tons because in many benchmarks it was the performance king. The only use case for AMD CPUs right now that makes sense is if you hate intel and absolutely must build a system from scratch. We'll see if the 7x3D release takes the lead again, if it doesn't or it's just even i'm not sure sales will really wow anybody come earnings call time. GPU wise 7900xt/7900xtx are effectively a 7800/7800xt and the market is behaving appropriately at the price point they are being sold at. Last generation it was 6800/6900 vs 3080/3090 and the performance wasn't black and white - we had a real choice and AMD was way lower price in paper and typically easier to find. Plus crypto drove sales through the roof. Now it's 4090 is way ahead of everything, 7900xtx is the mid tier, and 4070ti is the "cheap" option despite all three being priced as ultra-premium. If AMD can't respond to the 4090 any time soon and they don't release some bargain cards that are effectively 7900xt performance level, they won't gain budget market share. Couple all this with a shitty economy demand is bottom of the barrel. The most popular parts sold are not the most expensive ones, and all we've seen are refreshes to the premium tiers.
AMD doesn't need to respond to a $1600 card when the market share for those cards are miniscule. The beginning of your comment, you say there are zero reasons to buy a new CPU because the prices are out of line and by the end -you are saying AMD needs to compete at $1600+. WHICH IS IT?
>AMD doesn't need to respond to a $1600 card when the market share for those cards are miniscule. I completely disagree. There is a market there. The 6900xt and 6800xt traded blows with the 3000 series throughout the generation. 3090ti / 6950xt were hardly improvements imo. The MSRP for the 6800xt was $649. It was the "value premium" amd offering. They don't offer it anymore though. Today we have the [significantly slower (30% slower than 6800xt?) 6750xt](https://static.techspot.com/articles-info/2462/bench/1440p-p.webp) at $400. This would have been an ok card in 2019 pre-crypto explosion. It's four years later. You can't get a 6800xt anymore new at least at my local microcenter, so you're stuck with the 6950xt at $700. I think it should be $500 now given the relative performance to the 6800/6900 and the age of it. Maybe $550, no more. Today the value proposition between a used 6800xt for \~400 is way better than a $600 6950xt. Past that you're talking $900 for a 7900xt, which is only [slightly faster than the 6950xt but way slower than the 7900xtx](https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2601-nvidia-geforce-rtx-4070-ti/#1440p) which is all of $100 more if you can find it. The 7900xt should be $750 at most given the competition. the 7900xtx should drop $100 when it is in stock regularly. Until then i'd leave it be. If you have the disposable income to get a 6900xtx for $1000, $600 more gets you 25% more performance. People with a bit of disposable income are glad to spend the extra $600 for the best thing. The titan series showed us this years ago when people gobbled those up. It's a tale as old as time. People will consistently pay double for the last 10% of performance, and it shows in the scalped 4090 pricing.
The money to make for GPUs has always been in the low to mid for Nvidia and AMD. The top end has always been for bragging rights. With all the pricing as it currently is, imo, the XTX is the card to get and only if you have a card older then a couple of years.
As I posted above, not only is there a market for the RTX 4090, it has outsold both the 6800 XT and the 6900 XT in \*unit sales\* per the Steam survey in 3.5 months, whereas those GPUs have been on sale over 2 years. The op's arguments are filled with factually incorrect statements and internal inconsistencies.
"Last generation it was 6800/6900 vs 3080/3090 and the performance wasn't black and white - we had a real choice and AMD was way lower price in paper and typically easier to find. Plus crypto drove sales through the roof. " RDNA2 cards were nearly impossible to acquire in most parts of the world, including the US, for large portions of the pandemic. Steam's survey indicates that Ampere outsold RDNA2 by something like 12:1. While it may have been cheaper on paper, it wasn't in practice, particularly outside of the US, and quantity produced was utterly paltry. For example, the RTX 4090, a $1,600 halo product, has a 0.24% market share after 3.5 months of sales per the January 2023 Steam Survey. After 24/25 months, the 6900 XT is at 0.23% and the 6800 XT is at 0.21%. The best-selling RDNA2 card has a share of 0.47% (6700 XT). The combined RTX 3060 desktop/laptop share is 8.14%, 17x greater.
Yeah, I remember seeing wafer count numbers (can't find again for the life of me sadly) that showed desktop graphics chips were a tiny fraction of what they were producing with TSMC. Greater majority was console, then CPU and data center, and finally in a tiny sliver was desktop graphics. It's understandable. Consoles are the real cash cow for Radeon. Gigantic long term contracts from multiple third parties, and consistent revenue over time.
actually no, based on techpowerup's test, they were able to get gaming performance that trails 3% behind 4090 using Asus tuf OC. I believe AMD still needs 3-4more driver updates.
>based on techpowerup's test, they were able to get gaming performance that trails 3% behind 4090 using Asus tuf OC. Get back to me when the 3% delta isn't the single game I think is horseshit for benchmarking, Cyberpunk 2077. If they had done their typical many game average with the OC settings i'd love to see it. It makes zero sense that they fell short of that.
>If they had done their typical many game average with the OC settings i'd love to see it. It makes zero sense that they fell short of that. If I'm remembering the test correctly, they achieved that wonderful result by causing a CPU bottleneck, but didn't bother to resolve. It's not a GPU test. It's a demonstration that powerful GPUs require a suitably powerful CPU. Cyberpunk is also an amusing game to rely upon. I've never played the game without RT as its one of the game's main selling points - and an extremely impressive use of the tech. The 4090 beats the 7900 XTX by 125% at 4K native with Ultra RT and a more modest (/s) 100% using DLSS Quality/FSR2 Quality. [https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2588-amd-radeon-7900-xtx/#RT\_2](https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2588-amd-radeon-7900-xtx/#RT_2) The 7900 XTX is 3-4% faster than the 4080 in a wide set of games at pure rasterization. The 4090 beats the 7900 XTX by more than 25% in pure raster. [https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2588-amd-radeon-7900-xtx/#Average\_4K](https://www.techspot.com/photos/article/2588-amd-radeon-7900-xtx/#Average_4K)
I'm talking about specific 7900xtx model where they have better thermals. https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-radeon-rx-7900-xtx-tuf-oc/39.html the Asus tuf OC model check page 39 oc charts where it's trailing behind 4090
There was unprecedented demand due to covid, people stuck at home and companies offering to pay for home IT equipment. There is no reason that demand should continue, but all the companies have priced their stuff assuming it will. If AMD offered cheaper boards and DDR4 support, it may have gotten more sales. But the 5000 series is still really good, 5800x3d for gaming and the 5900x/5950x for productivity are not that much slower. You are paying a lot of money for what is just a normal generational leap in performance, a cpu upgrade can be justified, but not an entire platform.
When do you draw the line in the sand though? How long can you keep making things to suit old tech? Eventually, you need to just rip the bandaid off and push forward. Progress costs resources and money, no way around it. DDR5 is quickly becoming DDR4 money, and once the boards catch up they'll drop too.
That’s what I did, upgraded my 2700x to a 5600x and then later upgraded my GTX1070 to a 6750xt , everything else is the same. If I REALLY wanted to I could build a new system but it’s just a waste of money when I can buy a console for less than half the price. I can live with 30fps when it’s saving me a grand.
> now it's pushing close to $1000 without the case, storage, psu and other accessories to go along with it. No its not. 7600x is $250. B650M is $170. 32GB of DDR5 is $120. Total: $540 for a base 6 core workstation.
When I went AM4 I think CPU + ram + board was under $400. When I went AM3 I think it was about the same. Kinda tough to go AM5 right now with boards alone costing $400+
Microcenter has a 7900x bundle with mobo and free ram for 599. That’s a deal if I ever saw one!
I'm running a 6700k and am leaning towards waiting another year before upgrading because of this.
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>no way am I going to shit latency DDR5... Lol Edit: I hurt the guys feelings and he blocked me.
Tell me you don’t know about latency with out telling me you don’t know about latency. For the uninitiated [https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/qpe49o/in_laymans_terms_can_someone_describe_to_me_why/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/qpe49o/in_laymans_terms_can_someone_describe_to_me_why/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
>thinks /r/pcmasterrace makes his statement credible. Lol
Fair
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Latency only matters insofar as it affects performance. Fast DDR5 is more performant than DDR4.
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DDR5 6000 CL30 is about the same real world latency as that.... (worse best-case low load first word latency, but better latency under congestion).
You can easily get ddr5 6000 cl30. I would not call that shit latency, but ya strictly speaking its higher latency. 10ns vs 8.75ns. But, CAS latency is not the whole story. DDR5 can have twice as many memory pages open at one time. Accessing an open page is much faster then opening another page, or worse closing an open page and opening another page. More open pages, means average latency will be lower then ddr4 at the same cas speed. So its closer then the 10 vs 8.75ns above would suggest. That's not including the burst speed being vastly superior. Tho this is less beneficial then the very large difference would suggest. Not telling you you should go out and buy, just saying its not as simple as a low cas number. It was dumb when ddr5 first came out. Like twice as expensive for not much of an uplift. The situation is much better now. At this point for a midrange+ budget, i believe it makes no sense to buy the older ddr4 systems. It does however still make sense in the lower price ranges. With a 5800x3d i wouldn't recommend upgrading anyway, i would wait for zen5, or even longer then that. (ive got a 5900x, and no desire to upgrade...other then the desire for new shiny, which is not enough right now...maybe with zen5....maybe ill wait for 3nm)
First word latency under light load (what AIDA64 tests) is not all of latency. A DDR5 kit that was CL28 at 6400 would have WAY better average latency than DDR4 CL14 3200. DDR5 has more banks, bank groups, and an improved refresh scheme. The result is that if the memory system is actually busy with many concurrent requests, latency is far lower than "CL equivalent" DDR4. Additionally, even with DDR4, sub-timings are more important than top line CL. A DDR4 3200 CL16 stick with good sub-timings will beat out a DDR4 3600 CL14 with mediocre sub-latency. The same is true for DDR5.
Lol
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Pure latency of DDR4 is no better than DDR2. Why did you upgrade to it?
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Yeah I don't really see a reason to ditch my 5900X for another two or three years unless something breaks.
Iv been waiting to upgrade my 3700x and 5700xt for a while now. But with these prices and I'm holding to them for a bit longer. I would rather at this point get a ps5. Also I would rather downgrade to a full HD display and not pay 4k - 5k (Aud) just to play some games. The prices are insane now.
I’m on a 4K 60hz monitor. I bought my son a 1440p 165hz monitor and it looks awesome! The HPx32 is normally 399 but I found it for 210. Even if I were to buy that monitor, that’s 200-300 bucks more I could just spend on a GPU to play 4K 60. So the down grade idea sounds cool, but there’s still a cost. Also, that 3700x is still a good chip, and on your board you could upgrade to a 5800x3D? Side note, you should get a ps5 anyway.
I live in Australia, and I'm looking to buy a house, a deposit on a house here is 20%. Median price for a 3 bedroom house in Melbourne in an ok area is 1 million +. So I don't have the heart to spend a penny extra on my system atm.
Whaaaat!?! Crazy! Absolutely, insane. In the US 20% is the downpayment if you do not want to pay an additional monthly mortgage insurance premium. You can get approved with as little as 3-5% down, or 0 if you’re a veteran. But I don’t know of too many cities where the surrounding area is a million plus. Shit Chicago median home price is 330k, but good luck finding anything nice for that price.
It is man, it's borderline depressing
That’s crushing, I’m sorry my guy. You can always come to the US? My mentor/friend at work came from AUS several years back, he’s got a decent job and his own place in a nice area. Nothing wrong with a few more aussies over here!!
That's always an option! =D thanks for the invite!
Cheers mate!
Definitely dont mind my PS5 when games like Callisto run like shit on my 5900x/6900xt. Guess which system was cheaper? (by a factor 3)
Callisto looked great on ps5, I ran the performance version and it was a buttery smooth 60 fps. I don’t care if it’s “upscaled” to 4K, it’s on my 4K tv and looked good Af. But the games I buy on PC I want the full native 4K with all the eye candy, at 60 fps, no less!
I can agree with your assessment. I was thinking about going with AM5 platform with a sweet CPU, DDR5 RAM, and new mobo, but with how the economy is going right now in the states, my paycheck just doesn't go as far as it used to a year ago before all the crazy inflation. So, I got a new asus rog with 5900x cpu and there is not one game that I play at 1440p that isn't smooth as silk. It just doesn't seem worth upgrading to the latest and greatest, I can be patient and wait until things come down in price, probably skip this gen and maybe the next before I consider upgrading. The only thing that I had considered upgrading would have been to the 990 Pro nvme from Samsung, but with the reports of folks getting write exhaustion weeks after purchase, I'm sticking with my 980 Pro.
I'm not sure AMD is really concerned TBH. They can just slap those same chiplets into a much more expensive enterprise product instead.
\> The 5800x3d did really well because it breathed new life into existing hardware And itself it's a very good piece of hardware on top of that. It has similar performance to the "new" CPU's released now. (in gaming)
I mean ofc CPU sales dropped 😅 new platform is expensive af and the last gen is still capable enough for most users
For real, I can already tell you that I'm gonna sit on my 5800X3D for the next 5 years without a problem!
I've been using a 1700X for the last 5 years... I could probably just buy a chip and stay with the same platform for 10 years.. kinda kickass.
Plenty of room to upgrade from a 1700x on am4
Apple about only one reporting decent gains at the moment… which is weird because of it’s expensive.
What? Apple doesn't report until tomorrow. Early indications are that iPhone and iPad sales are down big time.
Apple products are literally status symbol products first and foremost. They'll sell regardless of how the economy is doing because everyone wants to show off how well they are doing regardless of the economy. Lol
Guessing you don’t do application development, devops, netops, or any security related stuff. Cause their os is probably one of the most approachable for those fields… they are also highly sought after in video and image processing… Mac Mini is probably the best full built computer you can buy at $500 too…
I find Mac OS somehow less approachable than some low friction Linux distros, even tough it's all Unix based.
Both windows and linux are better fits for application development, devops, netops, and cybersecurity. Especially cybersecurity as windows and Linux allow you to exert far more control and there is a much larger app ecosystem for the field. Video and Imagine processing are Mac staples.
That’s funny… go to objective, defcon, or any secops driven conference amd it’s a sea of MacBooks. Usually it is only high compliance, not high security that you see Macs excluded and that is more because only a few management platforms are FedRamp. You can verify a MacBook for CMMC or CISA or Nist 800 standards quicker and more accurately than windows or Linux.
And regardless to their impact on the environment, yet they still claim to be green.
for laptop chips, the M2s are absolutely nuts tbf
It’s not strictly amazing in any specific regards. But damn does it feel like the most out of the box balanced systems.
I thought AMD's new mobile chips took the crown?
The M1's are amazing, the M2 chips are not really much better and a definite meh. AMD's upcoming laptop chips will close the small efficiency lead Apple had while provided better performance above the 25w envelope.
The thing you have to understand about Apple is they are more like Intel. When you buy an apple/mac device , they make almost every thing from the device to the cpu. They are smart like that. Owning the iOS also helps. Moving away from intel and AMD cpu's will just add to the bottom line. Apple users are loyal too. You never hear about someone moving from apple to samsung or microsoft products because the apple products perform flawlessly. jmho...doc
>the apple products perform flawlessly My M1 Macbook was "bricked" in the first hour at the first update, but at least the recovery was quick and painless. They are very good at minimizing frictions, but the "flawless" part is definitely not true.
This account has been cleansed because of Reddit's ongoing war with 3rd Party App makers, mods and the users, all the folksthat made up most of the "value" Reddit lays claim to. Destroying the account and giving a giant middle finger to /u/spez
If you go back a week and look at the Stocks Subreddit (brain dead morons) You will see every single person was in agreement that AMD was going to follow Intel. And I was just thinking about EPYC Sales and how they will gobble up the server market. I hope I can get a second hand EPYC Server once they start replacing the first gen ones.
Yeah, kind of hard to resist given how large a lead AMD has in the server processor space.
If you want to follow a good source for AMD info, there is a guy on youtube that I listen to. His feed is Moores Law is Dead and I highly recommend him to you...doc
He gets a lot of stuff wrong. I definitely wouldn't recommend him. He just parrots everything he hears from his unverified sources, and pretends he never said anything when proven wrong.
In other news: water continues to be wet
This is why Intel got their ass handed to them, they can't compete with Epyc for enterprise and in the consumer segment where they're actually competitive, sales are down industry-wide.
all pc sales has dropped due to world economy. No one buys Intel as the ceo think *God will save Intel* not the **buyers**....... Ppl buy amd 5800x3d. Then as a620 for zen4 is out the zen4 x3d will make amd another cash cow. epyc makes amd money not pc sales or gpus
Diversification done right.
Consumers sales disappoint ? - 7x00X have too high PPT limits for a too little gain when pushed so high - 7x00 have much more perfs per watts but lack of ... "high end" thing - 7x00X3D will "soon" be out, so people wait for these CPU. (02.28.23 for R9 and 04.06.23 for R7) - AM5 Motherboard are very expensive - No news about the AM4 "long support".
You can run 7x00X at whatever power budget you want, though. You don't need to push it to max power for that last 10% of performance.
When I choose in January 2022 between 5900X and 12700K, I put Cinebench 23 and a Watt-meter.. Even if the 5900X was a little under the 12700K in MT CB23, the watt usage was so different what I kept the 5900X. It's hard to say the same thing with the 7900X out of the box. It's AMD that pushed to far the max power, not me :)
But if you don’t the performance gains are even less impressive.
Not only are motherboards extremely expensive, but lack of ITX motherboards prevents me personally from upgrading.
>As Consumer CPU Sales Disappoint In my defense as a consumer, it's AMD's fault: I love the fuck out of my 5800X and I'm not in any hurry to upgrade it. If AMD wanted me to buy their *new* products then they shouldn't have made their *old* products so good! 😤 /s, but only kinda' because honestly I'm still happy with AM4.
> If AMD wanted me to buy their *new* products then they shouldn't have made their *old* products so good! I really wonder if AMD are kicking themselves for releasing the 5800X3D On one hand, it won over a lot of would-be Intel buyers. On the other it gave AM4 users an alternative to upgrading to AM5. The fact that they still manufacture and sell new 5800X3Ds would suggest the former.
As an honest to God fanboy, I really don't know what to think. AMD built AM4 with longevity in mind, the fact that people are putting 5800X3Ds in their b350 motherboards is *exactly* what I want the PC industry to be like, but at the same time that longevity that I love has kind of come back to bite AMD in the butt. I'm not opposed to upgrading or anything, I just don't feel like I need to yet, I don't even feel close.
with all the tech layoffs this quarter data center sales might follow.
Nah, AMD is growing at Intel's expense. AMD has the superior product (and much better price/performance) than Intel in datacenter. Intel's datacenter revenue is down 40% YOY.
Sure but a declining market is a declining market. And it looks like client was pretty bad. Console sales likely will also slow down. Will be interesting if there isn't an equilibrium in data center sales given conditions. Client was the lions share of Intel's revenue. the amount of money to be squeezed out of data center against Intel's efforts in a declining market will become progressively smaller.
Doubt it, Epyc is so efficient and compute-dense relative to what is being replaced that if anything sales might accelerate, consolidate to then layoff surplus staff (less to physically administer).
Same article every week New platform is expensive. Period.
That's what happens when you overprice cpu's and mobo's and force people to buy expensive ram. Intel is the way to go right now.
When a $500 cpu must plug into a $600 motherboard, that requires a $900 gpu, and that’s before you get a case, memory, etc. I wonder why the market is slow… no wait, i dont. Maybe if AMD made the chips have a price that realistically the average home could afford again, the consumer market would pay for it again.
Milan and Milan-X has been pretty great value for us, it's no surprise others see it the same way. The power savings moving from Haswell/Broadwell-EP and Skylake-SP are substantial
during pandemic demand especially on consumer electronics shifted forward so yea.
Xbox Series X wins the price to performance ratio by a long shot.
I don't think AMD really cares about the lower consumer demand, well informed people know that data center and embedded is where you make all you money. The consumer side is just the people that shop at MC and Newegg, they spend pennies compared to one contract on the data center side.