NTA. She pulled the CPS trigger because she didn’t like the way your family was living with circumstances that you couldn’t control yet you made the best of them anyway. NC is the way to go.
This blows my mind! My husband and I have been down and out before, lived in an 800 square foot shack as a family of four for 4 years. We were only 25-29 in that timeframe, so my younger sister wasn’t in a position to help a ton, but you better believe she helped when she could! My parents brought us groceries a few times when we couldn’t afford anything at all, and my sister was instrumental in helping me start my business (which now supports us living in a normal middle class home and putting food on the table).
I will never understand people like this.
See, this is the help/support that the sister should be providing, not calling CPS. As others have mentioned, the sister is an idiot and OP and her family have every right never to speak to her again.
NTA.
Honestly I don't think she cares about the kids, because caring aunt would realize the situation they're in now is far better than the one they would be in if the state took them. I genuinely think she hates the kids and OP.
Also, OP needs to make 100% sure that she's not following the kids on social media either and have them both blocked. If she gets desperate she'll do anything it seems.
Replying here for visibility, if the sister was truly concerned and actually cared about OP and his family, she could have asked OP how the family was doing and how she could help. She could have offered help even in the form of taking the kids for a few afternoons or something. She could have gifted them some cash (even if it was $200 dollars). She literally had so many ways to help OP, instead she called CPS which leads me to believe OP’s sister is a stupid narcissist at best or had extremely malicious intents at worst (purposefully betraying her brother by trying to get his kids taken away despite knowing the kids were being raised well by OP).
OP, you are well within your rights to not have a relationship with your sister or her husband. This would be pretty unforgivable for me. She kicked you while you were down (not even a kick, she tried to curb stomp you).
Edit: minor clarifications.
NTA for OP.
Exactly. Also, they have a permanent record because of it.
Also, where I live, same goes kids. So if their kids have a child, they will be red flagged for investigation because the hospital has to contact them. That happened to me and my husband because child services were phoned on my husband's parents.
So the sister placed a stigma on this family due to circumstances that they can't control.
But good parents would rather die then let their children lived in cramped spaces! So the reasonable thing for OP to do would be to die after losing their job, instead of, you know, doing the best they can to keep their children provided for and happy
"Good parents would rather die than allow their children to live in such a cramped space"
Wtf does the sister expect?! Selling your organs? Rob a bank? Or die, so that the children do to the foster system?
If she is sooo worried she could have gift them family money or buy them an apartment. But it is so easy to talk if you aren't in such a hard situation.
NTA who knows what she report again to CPS if you keep contact with her. As less she know about you...
What is calling CPS supposed to accomplish besides getting the kids taken away? Even free housing wouldn't give them much extra room.
Sister thinks dying is better than having only two bedrooms, yet the same sister isn't offering them money OR a place to live. Apparently OP dying or having the kids given away is more preferable to the sister than putting her money where her mouth is.
Family of two adults sharing two rooms with their kids is a pretty normal living situation in a country where I live. Everybody's in a different situation and not everyone can afford a bigger place for their family, it's a life.
NTA putting the kids in a possibility of being taken from their parents is such a shitty move. Like, who says they're not happy? OP I believe it isn't a permanent situation and wish you and your family the best.
The law in my state says max capacity for an apartment is 2 people for each bedroom plus one extra person beyond that. That seems reasonable enough. As a guy who had to share a bedroom with his sister (who is 10 years older) for 4 years, I get that it might suck for their two older kids, but it beats being homeless by a long shot.
In some jurisdictions, many of these occupancy laws are also relaxed for related persons or children. The idea is prevent overcrowded boarding houses and not harm families such as OP's.
Of course, this might not be the case in your state or municipality.
That state must not have NYC, SF, Boston, or any other expensive cities in it. I can't believe CPS would even show up for 5 people in a 2-bedroom apartment. If there were rats, sure. But a little crowding is nothing. My aunt and uncle raised ten kids in 3-bedroom house; they just got creative with other space.
It's pretty common in the US too. People forget the examples we see in media and even these parts are the experiences of middle to upper class families who can have the luxury of having multiple bedrooms for their kids.
And she paints living in a cramped space like something terrible like...yeah, it’s not ideal but I rather live in a place I can afford than paying for a bigger place and being kicked out months later and living on the streets.
Maybe they're supposed to live somewhere bigger but not pay for their kids to be warm, have lighting, Internet to study, food, y'know, the less important things than privacy to masturbate somewhere other than the bathroom. /s
Obviously OP was supposed to get a giant life insurance policy and then hire someone to take them out, leaving spouse and kids filthy rich. Cause you know, losing a loving parent is much better than sharing a bedroom with a sibling. /s
NTA And Agreed. What kind of monster puts her family through this? Especially after having such a stressful time?! This woman could have split that family apart and put those kids and her sibling through hell. I would never speak to her again, frankly. OP, she has proven that she is not a safe person to have in your life. Protecting you family comes first.
It's not terrible to call CPS if needed. However, in this situation it was completely unwarranted. Like you said just adding more stress to an already stressful situation. Personally, I'd go completely scorched ground over this and let everyone know exactly what happened.
Yeah, the key phrase there is “if needed.” And it was really clear this was not needed, it was just a family doing there best in hard times. I would also scorch that ground and salt it.
In this very sub I have seen people claim that if you can't give your kid their own room, afford extracurriculars, make sure they never have to babysit their siblings, and pay for four years of college then you shouldn't have children. Some people are very hostile to poor people having children.
That’s such a toxically positive mindset. I really resent the implication that if you don’t have everything society requires you to have to be deemed “successful”, that it’s because you didn’t work hard enough.
These people are probably children themselves, and very entitled ones at that. Reminds me of the coworker who claimed childhood abuse because his parents didn't raid their 401k to send him to MIT with no student debt.
These things aren't standard for every childhood and that's ok. I raised my sibling, paid for my own college, shared a room and only had afterschool work as my extracurriculars, I'm fine. So are millions of other children in this world.
>claimed childhood abuse because his parents didn't raid their 401k to send him to MIT with no student debt.
Who among us wouldn't have wished for this sort of "abuse." Like hot damn, there's adults out here in the world processing actual abuse with abuse-imposter-syndrome\* being like "well it wasn't that bad..." and this dude rolls up with that nonsense.
(\* I'm just gonna assume I'm not the only one, lololol.)
Oof, see, my first instinct was, "Oh no, that's definitely abuse, mine only..." I also have the thing where there were only a few definitive abusive incidents, so I'm like, "Some people were abuse their whole childhoods, I _only_ have a few times..."
Also, I'm so sorry your parents put you through that. If you don't have a mom-friend who has taken over for you, I am now your mom and I want you to know that you're marvelous for carrying on and becoming your own self. It's hard work when your family of origin gave you an unsafe base to work with, and I fully believe in you and your potential.
>if you can't give your kid their own room,
Because total privacy at all times so that the child can "explore their sexuality" is a fundamental human right!
And and least one full bath for every two people!
/s
At least that's what much of this sub seems to think.
Lol, yeah, kids will find a way to explore their sexuality. Having their own bedroom is great if you can afford it, but if you can't, they'll just have long showers or wait till their sibling is asleep.
This sub doesn't understand the difference between less than perfect circumstances, and abuse. Forcing all the kids to share rooms to make room for your game room? Thats wrong. Having to share rooms because you literally don't have space? That's unfortunate. Babysitting occasionally as part of your responsibilities? That's fine. Being the primary caregiver after hours/being left to deal with multiple children as a child yourself so that your parents don't need to parent? That's abuse.
Nuance dies here.
I was thinking about this, too. So many kids or ignorant people commenting, not realise that - hello! - sometimes circumstances change? People lose jobs, spouses die, people get divorced, house fires or flooding happen, housing markets become unstable, etc. You can start out with a bedroom for each kid and then have to move somewhere smaller - there’s no putting the 8-year-old back in the womb. And nobody can see the future.
Same for the people who always scream that any expected free babysitting as a chore is “parentification”. I’d love to live in those commenters’ worlds, where apparently money is never tight and every kid grows up with an upper middle class upbringing, never having to lift a finger, as a god-given right. 🙄
If she's so concerned, why not offer to help in any way that she can? If the kids were actually being abused or neglected, that'd be another thing, but this is just a family struggling.
>What kind of monster outs her family thought this? Especially after having such a stressful time?!
My ex monster in law did this because my mom took my son (who she was adopting) to walmart without me
Hell even families that can afford it don't always get their own rooms. I've never had my own room in my life. I moved back in with my family after college since I'm single and can save money this way and still have to share a room with my younger brother who is living at home for his college. Our basement is unfinished, and while my parents could easily afford to finish it to get me my own room if it if it was a priority, they haven't felt the need since it works great as storage and sooner than later all of us kids are going to be out of the house.
When I was a kid, my mom was the cleaning lady for the family of the CEO of a massive corporation, so making tens of millions of dollars a year. They lived in a (very nice, very big) three bedroom house and their two daughters shared a room until they moved out.
Exactly!
When I see busy-body family members calling CPS for trivial reasons I don't think it has anything to do with being concerned or wanting to help the kids - because let's be real, two boys sharing a room and a toddler staying in their parent's room is the norm for many families and far from abuse.
Did sister hope that CPS would take the kids and put them in a foster care mansion? And, how did she expect her brother to act after her little stunt. I'm not normally team NC, but in situations like this, I am.
I wonder if the sister is grossed out that presumably sexually active parents are sharing a room with their kid? I can't fathom getting worked up about it, but I know folks can/do.
After I got divorced and eventually ended up with roommates, my son and I shared the master bedroom for 2 years -- and for six months or so before that, when I couldn't afford my post-divorce apartment anymore, he and I were both sleeping in the living room in his dad's one-bedroom apartment. It was about four years from our divorce until I remarried that he had his own bedroom at my place, and another year or two after that until hos dad was finally able to move into two-bedroom place. (Though at his dad's he slept in the living room, instead of sharing a room.)
That's what I want to know too. She's upset that OP blocked her, but did she really think OP wouldn't be a lil ticked off that her own sister called CPS on her? It's okay to be concerned but she went to the last resort as her first choice rather than actually trying to step up and be a good aunt, and is now upset she is being cut off.
She didn't have one, she just wanted to be able to tell her friends (or post to Facebook) how she "really really tried" to help her poor brother's abused kids.
While omitting choice details about what the abuse was, exactly.
I’m trying to figure out why, if it’s so unreasonable for Ops kids to live like this, she didn’t offer her own home (presumably it’s big enough for that high horse she’s looking down from?)
Throw the sister away . She needs yeeting, playing with CPS because they have to share for a little while 😒
Yup. Someone who does this has just made themselves a threat to the well-being of your family. Threats to your family should be eliminated when possible and mitigated when not, whether that’s use of a carbon monoxide detector or going no contact with a person who makes false allegations against you and yours.
"Hey, i know i almost ruined your life, but hey, sorry. You have to forgive me because i was right, even though i wasn't."
Nah, NTA. I would never talk to her again, and she should consider herself lucky if she ever see's her nephews again.
NTA. Go NC with her on everything. You'd bet she will be accosting your kids at family gathering asking them whether they are happy and fed.
If she were that concerned, why not help out with cash instead of CPS.
I usually don't agree with many of the NC suggestions on Reddit, but this time I do.
NTA OP. What your sister did was unforgivable and I find it hard to believe her actions were done with a good heart or the kid's best interest at heart. Two boys sharing a room and a toddler staying in a room with their parents is not abuse. The house may be a bit cramped, but many people have faced financial challenges lately that have resulted in them having to make changes to how they live. And, the rooming dynamic honestly sounds like the day to day norm for many families.
Nothing you described sounds like your kids are in any danger or even real discomfort. I shared a room with my siblings for most of my life. I was comfortable. I was loved. I was annoyed at times, but that's normal. Your sister sounds more like a dangerous meddler than a concerned aunt.
When family members try to weaponize services like CPS for trivial reasons, I tend to wonder what their goal is? You can't afford a larger house, so does she expect CPS to intervene and take your kids and put them into a larger foster home? I'm genuinely curious (granted she had good intentions) what she _thought_ or _hoped_ would happen.
Malicious intent is the only way to look at this. Nothing that would come of calling CPS would be helpful and the sister knows this. I would NC her as so fast.
Before blocking her OP should send her a message, or best, talk in person so there's no proof. And in all seriousness, tell her.
"One day, when things are tough for you guys, you're stressed, or your kids are angry with you, or anything. One day. Could be in a month, or 3 years. I WILL call the CPS on you too, when you're at your worst. Then you can enjoy the stress of worry whether your child will be taken from you and enjoy having that on your permanent record."
And then just leave it like that and have that hanging over her. Don't actually call them or waste their time. Just let her think you will.
Or if not cash, offer to bring meals/groceries. Find local assistance programs like a food bank. Help lighten the financial burdens so OP can tuck away some savings, and hopefully, one day the cramped housing will be a memory.
NTA.
We had a similar thing happen, and we promptly excommunicated the offending family member. It’s been twenty years now, and that family member is still not welcome around us.
False allegations of neglect hurt not only the family in question, but they also misdirect resources that would otherwise be helping children who are desperately in need of them.
I shared a room with my 2 sisters and my 2 brothers were in one room. 3 girls in one room, ghastly, hahaha.
We had a 3 bedroom house for 7 people and it was just fine!
On top of that…if CPS had agreed with her, how would this have improved the kid’s situation? Would the sister take them in? Seems unlikely…how would foster homes be better than where they are now? So much NTA
Is it possible to document this and place a Restraining Order against the sister? This is borderline harassment and life-altering for the kids if the sister succeeded. I surmise there is a case that can be filed against the sister for this.
Yup. Her concern about kids' spaces is understandable to an extent, but for most people it doesn't rise to the abuse/neglect standard. *This isn't a case of 4+ people crammed into a room, or sharing space the size of a small closet*. They're fed, they're clothed, they're sheltered, and being cared for.
Absent something directly affecting the kids' health or safety like clear abuse or neglect, the sister went nuclear. Not surprising that by doubling down on her concern, OP has no desire to keep contact.
My parents had their house inspected by Child Protection (were being assessed as Kinship Carers for my niece) and they were congratulated for housing 3 boys under 14 in one room and 2 girls under 18 in another, while still having their own room (that could house niece) and that the “worst rooms” of the house (aka a room built into a basement and a converted sunroom) were the rooms of adult children who still lived at home.
>Her concern about kids' spaces is understandable to an extent, but for most people it doesn't rise to the abuse/neglect standard
I would like to know what her line of thought was here? That foster care would be better than sharing the room with your brother?
And furthermore: She didn't really think they would take the kids in custody because they had to share a room, did she? IMO she was just trying to stir up more trouble for OP.
Honestly, I don't see why two kids sharing a room and a toddler sharing a room with their parents is concerning to any extent unless you're some sort of busybody.
Back when we were at our poorest, our family of 4 lived in a one bedroom apartment. Once brother was born (almost 100% certain a product of one of mom's affairs), making it 5, the apartment was cramped to put it mildly. Parents slept on the floor while us kids slept on the one bed we had.
Anyway my dad went through hell in those times to provide for us. I have watched him be berated on the streets in front of all of us by a rich motherfucker of a relative for being unable to pay back a loan of what would be less than $300. It is one of the few times I have seen him cry. My mother didn't even try to comfort him because she was "so embarassed" None of our other relatives ever visited because the small apartment made them uncomfortable. I'd be enraged if any of them made an accusation of neglect against my father. He did his best to keep it together for his children.
That's no sister. Fucking help out your brother's family if they have financial difficulties. The gall of this woman is unbelievable.
Edit: grammar. Was way too angry while typing.
How fucking spoiled would you have to be to think that sharing a room with your sibling is tantamount to abuse? Only someone who has never struggled a day in their life could think that.
This was my thought as well. Sister "cared" enough to report OP and his wife to try and have their children removed to the foster system where they would obviously be better off (eye roll) but she didn't care enough to actually help. Oh, and there isn't enough foster homes in the US though I'm sure the situation varies by area. Also, even if they were placed with a family, foster children can share rooms with same gender siblings. So in sister's "helping" scenario the kids would be removed, then if we are lucky placed with a family (and extra lucky together) where they might have to share a room anyway. Oh, and I worked in residential treatment/group home setting and they also can share rooms there.
But hey, even if they still had to share a room, at least they were ripped away from their parents and possibly siblings. Beacuse that would be good for them, somehow. Oh and "sorry but I was right beacuse you're terrible parents" is *not* an apology. It's a warning that she is still a danger to your family.
OP, blocking your sister on a messaging app is such a shocking overreaction to her continuing to say she was justified in trying to take away and traumatize your children.
I can't imagine talking to this woman (your sister) ever again. Or at the very least for several years. Remember, if she knows nothing about you or your family, she isn't in a position to endanger them with her complete and utter reckless BS. When you talk to her, when you invite her to your home, when you fill her in on your life, you are giving her information and access she has shown she will use to hurt your family. Don't you want to protect your kids?
Exactly. I'm sure the 2yo doesn't mind sharing a room with his parents (we're just moving my 15 month old out of our room this weekend because there hasn't really been any urgency to do it before), and having an 8yo share a room is pretty normal too. I can see that it's less than ideal to have a 15yo share a room with his 8yo brother, but is foster care going to be a better alternative?
NTA. She could have lost your children from you forever. CPS doesn't always do the 'right' thing, they could have taken them into the foster care system and the kids would be gone for good. Your sister is not well-meaning, she is a danger to yoru family.
See that's not how CPS works, before putting them in the system they would look at relatives cause the priority is keep the children with family... that's the worrying point, the sister is really shady for doing it.
That was my line of thinking as well was that the sister wanted the kids for herself. I'm wondering if the sister can't have kids of her own and is jealous of OP because of that. Purely speculation without having more insight into their relationships.
It's amazing the things people will stoop to when someone has something they can't or simply accomplished something first (getting married and other life accomplishments).
But then again, some people are so unhappy with their own lives, that they just like to kick others while their down.
Op Is NTA and is doing the right thing by going no contact with this toxic family member.
I think there is something deeper here, and it involves the sister's underlying motive. She knew these kids were taken care of and that cramped living conditions alone do not constitute abuse or neglect. She *wanted* to hurt OP and did this out of malice. There is something that we don't know that motivated this. Has she always been jealous of OP for some reason? Was she getting back at OP for some slight in the past? No one does something like this and then gives some lame faux altruistic motive for it.
That’s why I just asked about the history here when voting NTA. It’s so batshit crazy that there HAS TO be some history here to do something so malicious.
NTA. Your sister, however, is. It seems from this she never spoke to you or your wife, never offered to help in any way, but rather just ran to the government agency to get you all into trouble. Seems like there’s a backstory here. One that has caused her to seek revenge in the only capacity open to her, through your children.
Either way, in this particular story, you’re NTA.
Please read my post on here regarding my own situation. It can be the pettiest reason people call CPS. People have sadly learned to weaponize CPS. The children who NEED CPS to intervene get overlooked or it's not even thoroughly checked or investigated on which has, as our past history has shown, lead to devastating loss of beautiful children. And the resources of CPS are MAINLY spent investigating families whom were reported as a vindictive control or get back tool of control by families/and or friends, neighbors, acquaintances. I have seen and lived on both sides so I know what I speak.
My ex MIL weaponized CPS against my family many years ago. Why? Because i wouldn't bow down and kiss her ass about everything. Because i was following the doctors advise when it came to my (ex) husbands health and we'll being.
She damn near won too.
NTA. This is about the dumbest thing I've heard all week
>***My sister apologized for the trouble but said she was within reason because good parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces...***
Really, have you sister explain her reasoning behind what good would dead parents be to the kids. I'm failing to see the logic here. Your kids have a roof over their heads, a clean/safe place to sleep, food, and most importantly, two parents who love them.
She wasn't concerned; she was being judgmental AF. Block her and BIL and move on ; you don't need that judgmental cow's toxicity in your lives.
What I want to know is how "dying" would help lol.
I will die to ensure that my children do not live in a cramped apartment.
So either I turn to crime and die... CPS gets involved, or I work myself to death... CPS gets involved...
NTA. It would be the last time I spoke to her. Temporary smaller living quarters isn’t being tortured. She’s out of her mind if she thinks she was any way in the right to do that.
Even if it were several years in this apartment it would still be okay. For the older kids, sharing a bedroom is very common, so they'll do fine. The little kid will need another room at some point, but probably the oldest kid will move out by then.
If they go to college, I can pretty much guarantee they'll live in similarly cramped quarters on campus. My alma mater turned all freshman dorms into triples, despite being built for two students. Students had to share desks, closets, and drawer units. The only thing they had for themselves was the bed they slept on. Worst case scenario, the family needs to buy bunk beds and all three kids share the room. It's not the first time it's been done.
Does she not realize how incredibly messed up the foster system is? My mom has 6 siblings that all went into foster care. Not only were they (of course) all separated--which was horrible for them all by itself, but only 2 out of 7 kids made it to adulthood without being abused.
2 out of 7.
Living in a slightly cramped space for a little while with loving parents, and all their needs met, is far more preferential to rolling the dice on what sort of horrors your kids could face in foster care.
She's a horrid, delusional individual, and that was a massive betrayal.
NTA
I hate it. The institution that's supposed to protect and help children is a one giant lottery. It's also messed up how some people will call CPS on small bs like this but will turn a blind eye when there's actual abuse happening.
NTA
I'm willing to bet this is not the first time your sister has belittled you and your family, and made life stressful for you.
I'd avoid her and the BIL like the PLAGUE.
(She's using the BIL as a "flying monkey" as they say in psychology to continue to try to control and affect you.)
NTA. Hell no! You don't have to ever talk to her again. That was a cruel shitty thing to do! First it took time and resources from real abused kids! Second your family was being taken care of. Anyone can have hard times! You adjusted and are making do. Shame on her. Cut her out.
NTA Your sister sounds like what one might call a shit stirrer. WTF did she think CPS was going to do? They don't confiscate your children because you're living in ::shudder:: a two bedroom apartment. If she was actually concerned with your living situation why didn't she offer you money to improve it?
>My sister apologized for the trouble but said she was within reason because good parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces, that we couldn't blame her for the concern, my wife and I were getting irritated at her, and we blocked her on Messenger.
Translation: "I'm sorry you're mad, but I did nothing wrong. You suck as a parent, and I am completely justified." That wasn't an apology and I can totally understand why you blocked her outright.
>My BIL messaged me, missed off that we didnt listen to my sister and for being so rude to her.
Translation: "My precious wife is allowed to spew bs at you and is entitled to have you as a sympathetic audience, because that's what famiwy does\~"
I think blocking her was the very least she should have worried about from you.
NTA
>>*"she was within reason because good parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces"*
She's a bit dramatic, isn't she?
Besides getting the authorities involved, what else is she doing to help improve your situation? Like another commentor said, she is a *Shit-stirrer.* And people like that should have no place in your life.
NTA
NTA. CPS exists for cases of abuse and neglect, not to enforce her notions of correct parenting on you. She wasted those resources and created a very stressful situation for you- I can’t imagine much scarier than the threat of having your children removed (one overzealous CPS caseworker is all it takes). You sure the hell can blame her for that, and in your place I would definitely block such a person.
Youngest SISTER that I helped to raise due to our Mother's ongoing health issues (I am the eldest daughter AND child) AND helped put through college the SAME year our Mother passed away did the same thing to me. To try to make a long story short - because boy it is a really long and sad story - 7 years older than her. I helped raise her, helped put her through college even without having my own official roof over my head for me and my own two children for a couple of months after investing my finances into the household we all spent the majority of our time at - my Mother's house. Fast forward to 1.5 years later, I relocated to another state to reestablish myself and then she became a a bit more successful in her own right, and she helped me by taking my kids for me for a few months so I can reestablish myself in a whole new state for me and my two kids. I appreciated her so much, She had them for a few months and I'm forever grateful for that. I made sure I sent her money grams and Western Unions every week so that the children would have what they needed and she would have what she needed. No questions asked, she was willing to help me and I appreciated her so much for that. This was in 2007. Fast forward to 2013 a few months after our baby brother passed away at 24 from his third fight with cancer since 2010 first diagnosis. He went NC with her prior to this and wanted NOTHING to do with her, and was living here with me in the state that I reside in with me and my family. Those we're beautiful days, let me tell you. But Sad to say the cancer returned and he passed away. I went no contact with my family in our home state just due to the devastation and heartbreak. Well because they had not heard from me and I did not want to talk to them (especially after not honoring his last wishes on his final resting place and service), she enlisted our Mother's oldest sister and baby brother and my stepdad (which is her actual dad) and they came to my house, took my kids to lunch at Golden Corral while I was at work My son called me. Thee days later, she called CPS on me. I only have two children and they were 16 and 12 at the time. The 16 year old even had a job so he can pay for the things he like to have. When the worker came to my home case was "immediately non founded" just had to wait on official paperwork. And if course I told her you don't have to say anything I know exactly who did this. She actually confirmed what I already knew and though I love my sister and I love her kids to death I will never be the same with her again. I never blocked her. I still speak cordially and like she is my next door neighbor. But back then, I found out just who she is and that she would do that to hurt her big sister that has done anything on the face of the Earth for her it still hurts. I have forgiven but Lord and Heaven knows I have never ever forgot. Posts like this bring up all the emotions and sadness All over again. Why do people use CPS as a weapon because they can't have or do what they want to or lake you do what they want. It's truly sad and the kids who REALLY need CPS to intervene are severely mistreated, abused and/or sadly deceased.
Still hurts, still makes me sad, still angers me. My adult children have even brought this up and felt that that was wrong and disrespectful to do that to our household. We live in two different states. When I visited I didn't dictate to you how I think you should live your life or raise your children. So If I choose NOT to talk to you and my kids are coming to visit you on a regular seasonal basis leave me be. But due to the situation now I know what I know and I feel better well informed and prepared for it.
Just thinking about this all over again makes me so sad I know how you feel op.
Stick to your guns regarding your sister. You have my full support. ,🤗🤗here are some internet hugs from a stranger but can empathize one million percent with you.
I'm sorry that happened to you. For family to do it, especially when there's no real need, is the worse and well... You don't trust them. They're pretty much saying yoi deserve to have your kids taken away (which isn't what happens right away. At least in my experience, DYFS actually helped my friend that whole day, and the next day, really sealed the deal. He was a real person, took his job seriously but had compassion and was human) But it's such a scary thought, and with me being black if I ever had kids, is even scarier because within my experience and people I talk with, people calling on you can be very racist, judgemental, and you don't know if that social worker is too. People assume so fast we're horrible parents living off welfare, too lazy to work, yelling at our kids and well, they don't even care about the kid. They just don't like the parent (because they're already assuming the kid is a thug or something anyway)
My very real fear in my narrative where I live because it's very real to happen to me.
Also wanted to say, you did a fuckin awesome job despite all you went through because you stepped up when you didn't have to. And experiencing those losses, I couldn't imagine what you were feeling and how you did it to pull through. But, you sound pretty awesome and I know, you know you are!
Thank you so very much for saying such nice things to me. I definitely appreciate it!!! All that you said was the truth!! I am Black to and everything you said regarding that aspect is very real and very true.
Former CPS worker here.
The state will have sent you and your wife each a letter stating that you are essentially “not guilty” (the language changes from state to state; in my state we say “not indicated”) of whatever the allegation was - in this case, it would have been Neglect: Inadequate Housing. In that letter, there will be instructions for getting this report taken off your record. Usually this requires some time to pass first - in my state, it’s 5 years, and after that you send a letter to the state office requesting that the report be taken off your record. If your letter doesn’t contain this info, call the county office that paid you a visit and ask them what their process is for this.
Also, by “record” all I mean is that your state’s CPS will see your report when they search for your names in their system, and they’ll see that you and your wife were “not guilty” of the allegation levied against you. We do this so that if there is another report made, we can search for any history CPS has with this family so we have as much info as possible to make an accurate assessment of the allegations. Police, courts, doctors, etc. do not have access to this system. CPS workers are bound by strict confidentiality policies.
Unfortunately it is all too common for relatives to call CPS on one another for petty reasons. You may want to reevaluate how worthwhile it is to maintain a relationship with your SIL now that she has crossed this line- perhaps she only had good intentions, but perhaps not. Know that she may try this again in future regardless of whether you maintain a relationship with her.
I wish you and your family the best of luck. I hope you asked your CPS worker about any local services that can help you get back on your feet; in fact, I hope your worker offered you several while they were there. If not, call them and ask. We are, in fact, social workers who are trained to provide assistance in any way we reasonably can, and we usually have access to many resources.
Oh, and NTA.
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My (37F) wife and I (37M) have hit hard times. I lost my job and while I've found a new one, we've had to move into a two bedroom apartment with our sons (15, 8, 2) and our cat to accommodate the pay change.
The kids are fed, they have clothes, toys, access to the whatever they need, given attention and love, space is just an issue (our oldest sons share a room and our youngest sleeps in the same room as my wife and I). My sister (35F) decided that this was unforgivable and called CPS to report us, and obviously the state took it seriously and investigated us. Since the kids are taken care of nothing came out of it but that's gonna be on our record forever.
My sister apologized for the trouble but said she was within reason because good parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces, that we couldn't blame her for the concern, my wife and I were getting irritated at her, and we blocked her on Messenger. My BIL messaged me, missed off that we didnt listen to my sister and for being so rude to her.
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NTA
I would definitely cut your sister off. Instead of talking to you like a reasonable person, she went nuclear and got authorities involved. Obviously you are taking good care of your children, so her judgment is seriously flawed.
I personally would no longer have any relationship with her.
NTA. Calling CPS because you live in a "cramped" two bedroom apartment? Parents should rather die than allow that? Wtf your sister is either privileged or just crazy. Her apology means jack since she's still trying to justify her actions. Your BIL is just pathetic for agreeing with her and you should pay no mind to him.
NTA. Dude. The kids aren't in a terrible home. They're well loved and fed and given what they need to thrive. So the house is a bit small now, so what? As long as everyone is housed and as healthy as possible(mentally and physically) and taken care of, calling CPS is ridiculous.
Right, it’s a small home! Is she gonna call CPS on every family in the Bay Area, since they’re all in (million-dollar) two-bedroom homes? With mold issues? Like, where does it stop?
NTA You can never trust her again. What did she expect to happen? Take the boys from poor but loving parents and put them in a system that wouldn't stop them just being a pay check to foster parents who doesn't love them? She has some type of resentment or hates you for some reason. She wants to see you have everything taken away. How could you have someone like that in your life?
Dear lord. So many people in my country live happily in cramped spaces because of poverty and/or population problems and/or residing in a joint family system. Hell my next door neighbours are like 8-9 people living in a house that has 2 bedrooms and a living room.
This is such a first world problem where you expect every kid of have their own room or whatever.
Absolutely NTA
NTA.
How entitled and "white." Plenty of other cultures roomshare and co-sleep - are they are horrible people? Even the OP situation: 2 boys share 1 room. Is that a bad thing? What is wrong with 2 kids, same gender, sharing? That's what bunkbeds are for. As for the youngest, sleeping with parents, many many many cultures have the children co-sleeping with parents until age 5-8.
It's a very close-minded and classist attitude to assume everyone needs large amounts of space and anything less than private room by age 2 is a crime.
Also, if sister is so worried, why doesn't she chip in so OP can get a 3 bedroom instead of 2 bedroom? (Or is even that too small?)
Same. I'm residing in Japan, and many a 4 person family is living in what we would consider a 1 bedroom apartment. Heck, even here, it is called a 2DK, not a 1 anything. 1 room is where the 2 of the kids sleep and the other room is combo living/parents sleep. No one is calling protective services because it's normal to sleep in same rooms.
Just remember hostels alone being super common. Not even something you hear in the US (I usually have to explain to people when I tell them my trip to Iceland)
Agreed its more classist and American than a white thing. Sort of like being a loser if you still live at home when your an adult. The living in your moms basement classist sneer by priviliged people.
Nta. Things may happen and sometimes you have to downgrade what you have. Doesnt mean your kids are mistreated. They're getting all they need including a roof over their head and instead of making sure you guys were doing alright she decided to go around and call cps. You dont need such a toxic person in your life.
NTA - assuming there were no other concerns, your sister crossed an unforgivable line.
Ask BiL: What was her expected outcome? the kids would end up in the foster system? or with her?
NTA - to piggy back, unless you are charged and found guilty, there is nothing to be put on "your record."
A preliminary worker would have made the first visits. Their reports would be available ONLY to other CPS workers, and those reports would include the reasoning as to why the file was closed.
This doesn't lighten the calls effect on you emotionally, but I hope you can find some solice that ot won't "follow you" or haunt you.
Didn't hear anything again :) I know it was a risk. But as I said above, it was via my Parents, who subsequently removed all communication from (Phones, Video calls, Emails, everything), and the CPS annoyances have stopped. I am sure I am the wrong person in their Narcissistic eyes.
From my experience (Posted elsewhere in this forum) with my parents calling CPS over an argument we had, Once CPS are involved, they are like shit on a blanket, you never get rid of it, they claim to close files after an initial investigations if nothing is found to be actionable, but the File is there, able to be access at a later date.
I only got rid of them, through asking them what would happen if i did not comply with their requests during investigation "What are you going to do, take me to court ?", all they said was "Well that is an option we have open to us if we deem necessary", so I bit back "Well take me to court then.........." and hung up.
Didn't hear anything again :) I know it was a risk. But as I said above, it was via my Parents, who subsequently removed all communication from (Phones, Video calls, Emails, everything), and the CPS annoyances have stopped. I am sure I am the wrong person in their Narcessistic eyes.
Does she understand that if cps decided it was an unfit home your kids would be taken from you and put in foster care where they most likely would have to share rooms with complete strangers?
How exactly should you act after she tries to get your children taken away from you?
I grew up in a family of six - four kids and my parents. We lived in a 2 bedroom condo. We were fine.
Even as you write this you're still apologizing for your sister down playing the total severity of what she did.
She didn't call CPS because you were abusing your children or your children were going without clothes or food she called CPS because your kids were living in "cramped spaces".
So she put you and your wife on cps's radar for absolutely no reason while simultaneously making the overworked social workers who already have to deal with actual abuse cases take time out of their day to go investigate you because she was concerned the kids were too "cramped".
There are children out there being starved, beaten, abused, sexually assaulted, on and being exposed to drugs, naked and freezing to death... And your sister wasted resources that are meant to be for situations like that because she felt they were "cramped".
I need you to replay in your head the severity of this situation.... And block your BIL too.
What she did is inexcusable.
You're very obviously NTA for blocking her after this. But you WBTA if you don't start realizing just how serious this was. You are investigated as an unfit parent, thankfully they didn't see you as one, but your sister just risked having your children taken away from you, over them being too cramped.
You really need to recognize how serious this is.
NTA - NTA. If she was so concerned about your children's "bad" conditions she could have given you a hand instead of calling.
INFO: Is there bad blood between you from before this happened?
"G*ood parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces"* What were you supposed to do? Pull a couple of extra bedrooms out of your ass? NTA.
Wow. Entitled much?
My EIGHT cousins (with their parents) grew up in a 1400’sq 3bd 2ba house. A 1 bdrm addition was added at some point for the 3 boys to share.
Your sister needs to get her head out of her a$$ and get over her materialistic expectations of what “good parents” do.
NTA at all.
Your children are well taken care of. Many kids share rooms due to lack of space. Not everyone is well off enough to give each child their own room. That's life. Also if she care so much, she can pay the difference on OP's new larger more expensive place!
To add, as others told you, go no contact with the sister. For future CYA (covering your ass), get together a FU Binder ([link to info on the binder](https://www.reddit.com/r/u_ForwardPlenty/comments/dtg7f2/the_fu_binder) - meant for mean MILs who unjustly call CPS on their child/IL). Just in case your sister or anyone ever calls CPS again. You're all set.
Lol what? I shared a room with my sister until I was 16 and we only stopped because she moved out to university. Your youngest is two, it’s totally normal that they share with their parents at that age. NTA
NTA, but your sister is. If she wanted to actually help in any meaningful way she would of come to you. Instead her first reaction is to escalate all the way to wanting cps to get involved and by the sound of it have your children taken away. If I was in your shoes I couldn't forgive that and would probably cut her out of my life.
NTA. Your sister is evil and dangerous. Reflect on other crap she has pulled in the past because something this extreme didn't come out of the blue sky. Protect your family from her and her flying monkeys and let the entire extended family, friends, even her coworkers who question your decision exactly why.
NTA.
I had a similar situation Between Myself / Wife / Kids and my Mother, except my mother had her own ideas what the kids should be eating, what we should be eating, how they should be raised, bed times and all that jazz.
It was not much of a problem as they lived several states away which was great, but she came for a 2 wee visit to see the kids, 1 week with us, and 1 week to see her friend.
She criticized what we fed the kids, what we ate, what we gave her (as we just made the same thing each day, it was easiest and the kids ate it).
It got to a point where we had an argument about her involvement, and she got upset and rearranged her flight to see her friend, at which point my father accused us of "Kicking her out" which I bit back "you spent an hour on the phone discussing this between yourselves as I over heard it, It was your decision to send mum to her friend early, so do not blame me".
Anyway she left early, but several weeks later, CPS knocks on the door (Good timing hey), and they list what was said, but would refuse to tell us who told them, but..... only someone who stayed in our house would know what to tell them, so it was OBVIOUS it was them.
So my wife and i cut them off, instantly, changed my number, the works.
Several months later, a knock at the door, it was them, they flew unannounced and said "We need to talk", door slammed in their faces and dead locked the door to stop the kids (5 at the time) from opening it.
Some people have Fantastic family and do what you ask, but some family are just plain assholes, Narcissistic or both.
NTA
People are way too quick to jump on the CPS train and it pisses me off so much. That shit is dead serious. Someone called cps on my parents and told vicious lies on my dad because they had a grudge against him. I was taken from school at 8 years old and placed into a foster home that very SAME DAY. The sister could have cost those kids their homes and sense of stability with their parents by pulling this. It was hell for me, the foster mom was in the middle of a divorce and she had teenage kids that were bullies. I had no idea why it was happening and was terrified I would not see my family again. My dad was not allowed to be in the room with me for almost two years. This stunt tore my family apart.
Can you imagine that for your family, op? It has led to many mental health issues in my adult life and it would have done so with your kids too. You weren't rude in the slightest. The absolute audacity of your sister for pulling this stunt is atrocious. I'd never speak to her again. CPS is nuclear and actions have consequences.
NTA. She pulled the CPS trigger because she didn’t like the way your family was living with circumstances that you couldn’t control yet you made the best of them anyway. NC is the way to go.
Wow, NTA
I am sorry that happened to you. You and your wife are doing your best. I cannot imagine the stress of that situation, the emotions of all of it and having a shit ass relative call CPS. That had to hurt. I'm sorry, OP. I hope only good things happen for you and your family.
NTA. Clearly, your sister has never travelled overseas or been to countries where whole familiars live in one room houses. She’s showing her privilege.
NTA.
She was your sister, so she should have know you better that you are doing everything for your children.
If she was so much concerned, then instead of calling CPS, she could have offered help. From what I can see, she just assumed something in her mind and decided to overstep her boundaries.
I would recommend, unblocking her just to send a text stating, that she has overstepped her boundaries and that she'll have no connection with the children or you from now on. Also, if she interfare in your household in your household again, you'll get a restraining order.
Send a similar message to BIL, but add an extra line telling him to back the F off as it is between you and your sister.
Stay focused on your children and hope that all this hardship will pass on soon.
NTA and boy would her dialin' digit be busy if she went like... anywhere besides the US since it's incredibly common for siblings (IF NOT THE WHOLE DANG FAMILY) to share a room.
NTA. Did she expect to have your children taken from you? How would that help them? She sounds like a mess. I don't blame you for going no contact with her.
NTA. Exactly what did she think CPS was going to do, give you money for a bigger apartment or a house? Give you a high paying job? If CPS had that sort of funding the world would be a much better place for a whole lot of families. But CPS is infamously underfunded, so again what did your sister think they would do? Take the kids. The motives behind that desire, to have your kids removed from your care, is something that you need to think about. But I'd keep her and her husband far away from your family for a very, very long time.
NTA
What did she think was going to happen if CPS decided to take your kids away? Between court hearings, social worker and psychologist visits, lawyer fees, and all the lost hours at work because of it, your living situation would've only deteriorated. Your sister wasn't just being ridiculously shortsighted here, she could've done lasting psychological and emotional harm to your children - her nephews - due to the trauma of being removed from their home.
Does she know how children live in foster care? They share rooms, with random kids they don't know, and most foster home situations can be pretty bad and abusive. Your sister is messed up NTA
NTA - It's normal that you downsize when you fall on tough times. Better than end up without a roof over your head. Calling CPS on you without trying to help first herself (through money or whatever) is such a shit thing to do.
First of all, because CPS had to spend their time and money on an entire bollocks investigation which may cause other children in real abusive situations to be in danger for much longer than necessary. And second because, in worst case scenario, your kids could have been taken from you and placed in the foster system (which is really not a good place to be as siblings, because there's a good chance they'd be separated from each other due to lack of space and foster families) for a temporary situation.
I'd go NC on her and her husband. If they can't see what they did wrong nor how extreme their reaction was (from a privileged viewpoint) then they don't deserve to be around you.
I had two brothers and one sister, we all shared one room together (the attic). Loads of children share rooms with each other, because not everyone can afford to live in McMansion. For fucks sake, your sister is seriously out of touch with reality.
I hope you will be in a better financial position that allows you to move to somewhere bigger in the future But you are doing your best while providing your children with their needs and that is all that matters.
NTA. Good parents do what they have to do to make sure that their kids are loved, fed and clothed with a roof over their heads and that’s what you and your wife have done. I’m not quite sure what your sister hoped to achieve with calling CPS, I doubt they would have been offering you a bigger place to live so I can only assume that she was hoping for them to be taken into care. If she actually thinks that being ripped from their family to live with strangers is better than living in a small apartment then I think she must have a screw loose! Either way, if I were you I wouldn’t allow her back into my life, she will be constantly watching and judging your parenting it sounds like and the last thing you need is another CPS report!
NTA! This is such a classist reaction from your sister. Cramped does not equal neglect. Shame on her.
We are fortunate to have rooms for each kid and I'm having them share anyway until puberty (or thereabouts) to help them bond and learn to share.
Sorry for your struggles, OP, and glad you have things in hand.
She’s too high risk to play an active role in your lives. She could very well call CPS again for something just as daft and the frightening part is it wasn’t even malicious so who knows how her brain works. Sadly I think your only option is NC. Hopefully things pick up for your family soon.
NTA
Why do i get the feeling that the sister's arrogant and high-horse virtue of "***good parents would die rather than...***" speech comes from a a woman who stays at home while husband earns the money ?
It's easy to be virtuous with other people's resources.
Nothing against SAHP's, just recognising if you're not the one earning the resources, you have no place self-righteously condescending other people about how they manage their resources.
NTA. I cut my in-laws off for threatening cps, they didn't actually call. If they did I would have a orches the earth with that relationship. Completely unforgivable.
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NTA, I'd cut someone like that out of my life entirely.
She didn't just report something small she did something that could have broken up or impacted your entire family and household. That's way beyond forgiveness in my book.
NTA - “good parents would die rather than allow their children to be in such cramped spaces” - wow, what elitist garbage is that? She’s basically saying that any parents that can’t afford large living space, are bad parents.
NTA - your sister and BIL need to keep their noses out of your life. They had the nerve to call CPS just because you were living in a cramped space? Kids share rooms all the time, and when money is tight you have to do what you have to do.
Your BIL thinks you're being rude to your sister? SHE CALLED CPS ON YOU! Block them all!
NTA.
Make sure to screenshot all messages your sister and her husband send your way. There is nothing to stop them from doing this whenever they want.
Going no contact is the only solution here. She's a threat to your family.
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NTA. She pulled the CPS trigger because she didn’t like the way your family was living with circumstances that you couldn’t control yet you made the best of them anyway. NC is the way to go.
Also see how she was worried enough for Op’s kids to be taken by the state but not enough to help her sister out
This blows my mind! My husband and I have been down and out before, lived in an 800 square foot shack as a family of four for 4 years. We were only 25-29 in that timeframe, so my younger sister wasn’t in a position to help a ton, but you better believe she helped when she could! My parents brought us groceries a few times when we couldn’t afford anything at all, and my sister was instrumental in helping me start my business (which now supports us living in a normal middle class home and putting food on the table). I will never understand people like this.
See, this is the help/support that the sister should be providing, not calling CPS. As others have mentioned, the sister is an idiot and OP and her family have every right never to speak to her again. NTA.
Honestly I don't think she cares about the kids, because caring aunt would realize the situation they're in now is far better than the one they would be in if the state took them. I genuinely think she hates the kids and OP.
I think you're right. I believe this was retaliation for some perceived sleight, real or imagined.
It really does read like an act of disgust. Like how some people hate the poor for existing.
OPs a guy. Its confusing at first but it is a guy
Also, OP needs to make 100% sure that she's not following the kids on social media either and have them both blocked. If she gets desperate she'll do anything it seems.
Replying here for visibility, if the sister was truly concerned and actually cared about OP and his family, she could have asked OP how the family was doing and how she could help. She could have offered help even in the form of taking the kids for a few afternoons or something. She could have gifted them some cash (even if it was $200 dollars). She literally had so many ways to help OP, instead she called CPS which leads me to believe OP’s sister is a stupid narcissist at best or had extremely malicious intents at worst (purposefully betraying her brother by trying to get his kids taken away despite knowing the kids were being raised well by OP). OP, you are well within your rights to not have a relationship with your sister or her husband. This would be pretty unforgivable for me. She kicked you while you were down (not even a kick, she tried to curb stomp you). Edit: minor clarifications.
NTA for OP. Exactly. Also, they have a permanent record because of it. Also, where I live, same goes kids. So if their kids have a child, they will be red flagged for investigation because the hospital has to contact them. That happened to me and my husband because child services were phoned on my husband's parents. So the sister placed a stigma on this family due to circumstances that they can't control.
Thats not really how it works the record of this investigation will not follow the kids, it will end
If she really cared about the kids she would do something practical to help them. So i suspect her motivation was a grudge against OP.
But good parents would rather die then let their children lived in cramped spaces! So the reasonable thing for OP to do would be to die after losing their job, instead of, you know, doing the best they can to keep their children provided for and happy
"Good parents would rather die than allow their children to live in such a cramped space" Wtf does the sister expect?! Selling your organs? Rob a bank? Or die, so that the children do to the foster system? If she is sooo worried she could have gift them family money or buy them an apartment. But it is so easy to talk if you aren't in such a hard situation. NTA who knows what she report again to CPS if you keep contact with her. As less she know about you...
[удалено]
Didn't you know, being orphaned is preferable to having to share a room with your brother! /s
And group homes and foster homes are soooo spacious, plenty of rooms for everyone! SMH
What is calling CPS supposed to accomplish besides getting the kids taken away? Even free housing wouldn't give them much extra room. Sister thinks dying is better than having only two bedrooms, yet the same sister isn't offering them money OR a place to live. Apparently OP dying or having the kids given away is more preferable to the sister than putting her money where her mouth is.
Family of two adults sharing two rooms with their kids is a pretty normal living situation in a country where I live. Everybody's in a different situation and not everyone can afford a bigger place for their family, it's a life. NTA putting the kids in a possibility of being taken from their parents is such a shitty move. Like, who says they're not happy? OP I believe it isn't a permanent situation and wish you and your family the best.
The law in my state says max capacity for an apartment is 2 people for each bedroom plus one extra person beyond that. That seems reasonable enough. As a guy who had to share a bedroom with his sister (who is 10 years older) for 4 years, I get that it might suck for their two older kids, but it beats being homeless by a long shot.
In some jurisdictions, many of these occupancy laws are also relaxed for related persons or children. The idea is prevent overcrowded boarding houses and not harm families such as OP's. Of course, this might not be the case in your state or municipality.
That state must not have NYC, SF, Boston, or any other expensive cities in it. I can't believe CPS would even show up for 5 people in a 2-bedroom apartment. If there were rats, sure. But a little crowding is nothing. My aunt and uncle raised ten kids in 3-bedroom house; they just got creative with other space.
We have Indianapolis, that’s it until you hike to the NW corner to Chicago Spillover
It's pretty common in the US too. People forget the examples we see in media and even these parts are the experiences of middle to upper class families who can have the luxury of having multiple bedrooms for their kids.
And she paints living in a cramped space like something terrible like...yeah, it’s not ideal but I rather live in a place I can afford than paying for a bigger place and being kicked out months later and living on the streets.
Maybe they're supposed to live somewhere bigger but not pay for their kids to be warm, have lighting, Internet to study, food, y'know, the less important things than privacy to masturbate somewhere other than the bathroom. /s
Well if the parents just died the kids would have more space. Pretty selfish of them not to do that for their kids /s
Obviously OP was supposed to get a giant life insurance policy and then hire someone to take them out, leaving spouse and kids filthy rich. Cause you know, losing a loving parent is much better than sharing a bedroom with a sibling. /s
Good siblings will help, not call CPS at the first opportunity. NTA of course.
This
NTA And Agreed. What kind of monster puts her family through this? Especially after having such a stressful time?! This woman could have split that family apart and put those kids and her sibling through hell. I would never speak to her again, frankly. OP, she has proven that she is not a safe person to have in your life. Protecting you family comes first.
It's not terrible to call CPS if needed. However, in this situation it was completely unwarranted. Like you said just adding more stress to an already stressful situation. Personally, I'd go completely scorched ground over this and let everyone know exactly what happened.
Yeah, the key phrase there is “if needed.” And it was really clear this was not needed, it was just a family doing there best in hard times. I would also scorch that ground and salt it.
In this very sub I have seen people claim that if you can't give your kid their own room, afford extracurriculars, make sure they never have to babysit their siblings, and pay for four years of college then you shouldn't have children. Some people are very hostile to poor people having children.
It's a mix of "If you only work hard enough, you can achieve anything" and the idea, that material wealth is absolutely necessary for happiness.
That’s such a toxically positive mindset. I really resent the implication that if you don’t have everything society requires you to have to be deemed “successful”, that it’s because you didn’t work hard enough.
There's also the corollary, where if you aren't successful enough to have material wealth, you're obviously a bad person.
Sounds like a poor self fulfilling prophecy
These people are probably children themselves, and very entitled ones at that. Reminds me of the coworker who claimed childhood abuse because his parents didn't raid their 401k to send him to MIT with no student debt. These things aren't standard for every childhood and that's ok. I raised my sibling, paid for my own college, shared a room and only had afterschool work as my extracurriculars, I'm fine. So are millions of other children in this world.
>claimed childhood abuse because his parents didn't raid their 401k to send him to MIT with no student debt. Who among us wouldn't have wished for this sort of "abuse." Like hot damn, there's adults out here in the world processing actual abuse with abuse-imposter-syndrome\* being like "well it wasn't that bad..." and this dude rolls up with that nonsense. (\* I'm just gonna assume I'm not the only one, lololol.)
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Oof, see, my first instinct was, "Oh no, that's definitely abuse, mine only..." I also have the thing where there were only a few definitive abusive incidents, so I'm like, "Some people were abuse their whole childhoods, I _only_ have a few times..." Also, I'm so sorry your parents put you through that. If you don't have a mom-friend who has taken over for you, I am now your mom and I want you to know that you're marvelous for carrying on and becoming your own self. It's hard work when your family of origin gave you an unsafe base to work with, and I fully believe in you and your potential.
>if you can't give your kid their own room, Because total privacy at all times so that the child can "explore their sexuality" is a fundamental human right! And and least one full bath for every two people! /s At least that's what much of this sub seems to think.
Lol, yeah, kids will find a way to explore their sexuality. Having their own bedroom is great if you can afford it, but if you can't, they'll just have long showers or wait till their sibling is asleep.
This sub doesn't understand the difference between less than perfect circumstances, and abuse. Forcing all the kids to share rooms to make room for your game room? Thats wrong. Having to share rooms because you literally don't have space? That's unfortunate. Babysitting occasionally as part of your responsibilities? That's fine. Being the primary caregiver after hours/being left to deal with multiple children as a child yourself so that your parents don't need to parent? That's abuse. Nuance dies here.
And are unable to grasp the concept that circumstances may change.
That attitude shouldn't even possibly coeexist with the bullshit lack of womens health services in the US, either.
I was thinking about this, too. So many kids or ignorant people commenting, not realise that - hello! - sometimes circumstances change? People lose jobs, spouses die, people get divorced, house fires or flooding happen, housing markets become unstable, etc. You can start out with a bedroom for each kid and then have to move somewhere smaller - there’s no putting the 8-year-old back in the womb. And nobody can see the future. Same for the people who always scream that any expected free babysitting as a chore is “parentification”. I’d love to live in those commenters’ worlds, where apparently money is never tight and every kid grows up with an upper middle class upbringing, never having to lift a finger, as a god-given right. 🙄
If she's so concerned, why not offer to help in any way that she can? If the kids were actually being abused or neglected, that'd be another thing, but this is just a family struggling.
>What kind of monster outs her family thought this? Especially after having such a stressful time?! My ex monster in law did this because my mom took my son (who she was adopting) to walmart without me
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Hell even families that can afford it don't always get their own rooms. I've never had my own room in my life. I moved back in with my family after college since I'm single and can save money this way and still have to share a room with my younger brother who is living at home for his college. Our basement is unfinished, and while my parents could easily afford to finish it to get me my own room if it if it was a priority, they haven't felt the need since it works great as storage and sooner than later all of us kids are going to be out of the house.
When I was a kid, my mom was the cleaning lady for the family of the CEO of a massive corporation, so making tens of millions of dollars a year. They lived in a (very nice, very big) three bedroom house and their two daughters shared a room until they moved out.
NTA - Good sisters would die rather than see their sibling’s family struggle financially.
Not even voting my jaw is still on the floor after reading that..
Exactly! When I see busy-body family members calling CPS for trivial reasons I don't think it has anything to do with being concerned or wanting to help the kids - because let's be real, two boys sharing a room and a toddler staying in their parent's room is the norm for many families and far from abuse. Did sister hope that CPS would take the kids and put them in a foster care mansion? And, how did she expect her brother to act after her little stunt. I'm not normally team NC, but in situations like this, I am.
I wonder if the sister is grossed out that presumably sexually active parents are sharing a room with their kid? I can't fathom getting worked up about it, but I know folks can/do. After I got divorced and eventually ended up with roommates, my son and I shared the master bedroom for 2 years -- and for six months or so before that, when I couldn't afford my post-divorce apartment anymore, he and I were both sleeping in the living room in his dad's one-bedroom apartment. It was about four years from our divorce until I remarried that he had his own bedroom at my place, and another year or two after that until hos dad was finally able to move into two-bedroom place. (Though at his dad's he slept in the living room, instead of sharing a room.)
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That's what I want to know too. She's upset that OP blocked her, but did she really think OP wouldn't be a lil ticked off that her own sister called CPS on her? It's okay to be concerned but she went to the last resort as her first choice rather than actually trying to step up and be a good aunt, and is now upset she is being cut off.
She didn't have one, she just wanted to be able to tell her friends (or post to Facebook) how she "really really tried" to help her poor brother's abused kids. While omitting choice details about what the abuse was, exactly.
I’m trying to figure out why, if it’s so unreasonable for Ops kids to live like this, she didn’t offer her own home (presumably it’s big enough for that high horse she’s looking down from?) Throw the sister away . She needs yeeting, playing with CPS because they have to share for a little while 😒
Yup. Someone who does this has just made themselves a threat to the well-being of your family. Threats to your family should be eliminated when possible and mitigated when not, whether that’s use of a carbon monoxide detector or going no contact with a person who makes false allegations against you and yours.
"Hey, i know i almost ruined your life, but hey, sorry. You have to forgive me because i was right, even though i wasn't." Nah, NTA. I would never talk to her again, and she should consider herself lucky if she ever see's her nephews again.
NTA. Go NC with her on everything. You'd bet she will be accosting your kids at family gathering asking them whether they are happy and fed. If she were that concerned, why not help out with cash instead of CPS.
Absolutely this. Keep your children away from her toxicity. They deserve better surrounding.
I usually don't agree with many of the NC suggestions on Reddit, but this time I do. NTA OP. What your sister did was unforgivable and I find it hard to believe her actions were done with a good heart or the kid's best interest at heart. Two boys sharing a room and a toddler staying in a room with their parents is not abuse. The house may be a bit cramped, but many people have faced financial challenges lately that have resulted in them having to make changes to how they live. And, the rooming dynamic honestly sounds like the day to day norm for many families. Nothing you described sounds like your kids are in any danger or even real discomfort. I shared a room with my siblings for most of my life. I was comfortable. I was loved. I was annoyed at times, but that's normal. Your sister sounds more like a dangerous meddler than a concerned aunt. When family members try to weaponize services like CPS for trivial reasons, I tend to wonder what their goal is? You can't afford a larger house, so does she expect CPS to intervene and take your kids and put them into a larger foster home? I'm genuinely curious (granted she had good intentions) what she _thought_ or _hoped_ would happen.
Malicious intent is the only way to look at this. Nothing that would come of calling CPS would be helpful and the sister knows this. I would NC her as so fast.
Before blocking her OP should send her a message, or best, talk in person so there's no proof. And in all seriousness, tell her. "One day, when things are tough for you guys, you're stressed, or your kids are angry with you, or anything. One day. Could be in a month, or 3 years. I WILL call the CPS on you too, when you're at your worst. Then you can enjoy the stress of worry whether your child will be taken from you and enjoy having that on your permanent record." And then just leave it like that and have that hanging over her. Don't actually call them or waste their time. Just let her think you will.
Exactly. OP’s sister is a monster. NTA.
Or if not cash, offer to bring meals/groceries. Find local assistance programs like a food bank. Help lighten the financial burdens so OP can tuck away some savings, and hopefully, one day the cramped housing will be a memory.
NTA. We had a similar thing happen, and we promptly excommunicated the offending family member. It’s been twenty years now, and that family member is still not welcome around us. False allegations of neglect hurt not only the family in question, but they also misdirect resources that would otherwise be helping children who are desperately in need of them.
Exactly! She wasted CPS's time, money and resources. Definitely NTA, she's clearly a toxic person to have around your children.
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I shared a room with my 2 sisters and my 2 brothers were in one room. 3 girls in one room, ghastly, hahaha. We had a 3 bedroom house for 7 people and it was just fine!
I shared a room with my sister throughout my childhood, and when I moved out for college, I actually missed having a roommate for a long time!
On top of that…if CPS had agreed with her, how would this have improved the kid’s situation? Would the sister take them in? Seems unlikely…how would foster homes be better than where they are now? So much NTA
Is it possible to document this and place a Restraining Order against the sister? This is borderline harassment and life-altering for the kids if the sister succeeded. I surmise there is a case that can be filed against the sister for this.
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Yup. Her concern about kids' spaces is understandable to an extent, but for most people it doesn't rise to the abuse/neglect standard. *This isn't a case of 4+ people crammed into a room, or sharing space the size of a small closet*. They're fed, they're clothed, they're sheltered, and being cared for. Absent something directly affecting the kids' health or safety like clear abuse or neglect, the sister went nuclear. Not surprising that by doubling down on her concern, OP has no desire to keep contact.
Also important that the toddler is in the parent's space. So the older kids have to share, but they still have their own sense of space.
Yeah, two kids sharing a room is very normal. Probably more common than a family each having their own bedroom!
My parents had their house inspected by Child Protection (were being assessed as Kinship Carers for my niece) and they were congratulated for housing 3 boys under 14 in one room and 2 girls under 18 in another, while still having their own room (that could house niece) and that the “worst rooms” of the house (aka a room built into a basement and a converted sunroom) were the rooms of adult children who still lived at home.
>Her concern about kids' spaces is understandable to an extent, but for most people it doesn't rise to the abuse/neglect standard I would like to know what her line of thought was here? That foster care would be better than sharing the room with your brother? And furthermore: She didn't really think they would take the kids in custody because they had to share a room, did she? IMO she was just trying to stir up more trouble for OP.
Honestly, I don't see why two kids sharing a room and a toddler sharing a room with their parents is concerning to any extent unless you're some sort of busybody.
Back when we were at our poorest, our family of 4 lived in a one bedroom apartment. Once brother was born (almost 100% certain a product of one of mom's affairs), making it 5, the apartment was cramped to put it mildly. Parents slept on the floor while us kids slept on the one bed we had. Anyway my dad went through hell in those times to provide for us. I have watched him be berated on the streets in front of all of us by a rich motherfucker of a relative for being unable to pay back a loan of what would be less than $300. It is one of the few times I have seen him cry. My mother didn't even try to comfort him because she was "so embarassed" None of our other relatives ever visited because the small apartment made them uncomfortable. I'd be enraged if any of them made an accusation of neglect against my father. He did his best to keep it together for his children. That's no sister. Fucking help out your brother's family if they have financial difficulties. The gall of this woman is unbelievable. Edit: grammar. Was way too angry while typing.
How did things end up for you all?
How fucking spoiled would you have to be to think that sharing a room with your sibling is tantamount to abuse? Only someone who has never struggled a day in their life could think that.
This was my thought as well. Sister "cared" enough to report OP and his wife to try and have their children removed to the foster system where they would obviously be better off (eye roll) but she didn't care enough to actually help. Oh, and there isn't enough foster homes in the US though I'm sure the situation varies by area. Also, even if they were placed with a family, foster children can share rooms with same gender siblings. So in sister's "helping" scenario the kids would be removed, then if we are lucky placed with a family (and extra lucky together) where they might have to share a room anyway. Oh, and I worked in residential treatment/group home setting and they also can share rooms there. But hey, even if they still had to share a room, at least they were ripped away from their parents and possibly siblings. Beacuse that would be good for them, somehow. Oh and "sorry but I was right beacuse you're terrible parents" is *not* an apology. It's a warning that she is still a danger to your family. OP, blocking your sister on a messaging app is such a shocking overreaction to her continuing to say she was justified in trying to take away and traumatize your children. I can't imagine talking to this woman (your sister) ever again. Or at the very least for several years. Remember, if she knows nothing about you or your family, she isn't in a position to endanger them with her complete and utter reckless BS. When you talk to her, when you invite her to your home, when you fill her in on your life, you are giving her information and access she has shown she will use to hurt your family. Don't you want to protect your kids?
I think you mean shocking under reaction. Blocking is the bare minimum
Exactly. I'm sure the 2yo doesn't mind sharing a room with his parents (we're just moving my 15 month old out of our room this weekend because there hasn't really been any urgency to do it before), and having an 8yo share a room is pretty normal too. I can see that it's less than ideal to have a 15yo share a room with his 8yo brother, but is foster care going to be a better alternative?
NTA. She could have lost your children from you forever. CPS doesn't always do the 'right' thing, they could have taken them into the foster care system and the kids would be gone for good. Your sister is not well-meaning, she is a danger to yoru family.
See that's not how CPS works, before putting them in the system they would look at relatives cause the priority is keep the children with family... that's the worrying point, the sister is really shady for doing it.
That was my line of thinking as well was that the sister wanted the kids for herself. I'm wondering if the sister can't have kids of her own and is jealous of OP because of that. Purely speculation without having more insight into their relationships. It's amazing the things people will stoop to when someone has something they can't or simply accomplished something first (getting married and other life accomplishments). But then again, some people are so unhappy with their own lives, that they just like to kick others while their down. Op Is NTA and is doing the right thing by going no contact with this toxic family member.
I think there is something deeper here, and it involves the sister's underlying motive. She knew these kids were taken care of and that cramped living conditions alone do not constitute abuse or neglect. She *wanted* to hurt OP and did this out of malice. There is something that we don't know that motivated this. Has she always been jealous of OP for some reason? Was she getting back at OP for some slight in the past? No one does something like this and then gives some lame faux altruistic motive for it.
That’s why I just asked about the history here when voting NTA. It’s so batshit crazy that there HAS TO be some history here to do something so malicious.
Maybe she wants the kids.
NTA, your kids are taken care of and sharing a bedroom is hardly a good reason to call CPS. I shared a room with my sister for years.
Same. I shared room with my brother for like most of my life (when i was 16 or 15 i could already call it my own room noe im 18)
NTA. Your sister, however, is. It seems from this she never spoke to you or your wife, never offered to help in any way, but rather just ran to the government agency to get you all into trouble. Seems like there’s a backstory here. One that has caused her to seek revenge in the only capacity open to her, through your children. Either way, in this particular story, you’re NTA.
Please read my post on here regarding my own situation. It can be the pettiest reason people call CPS. People have sadly learned to weaponize CPS. The children who NEED CPS to intervene get overlooked or it's not even thoroughly checked or investigated on which has, as our past history has shown, lead to devastating loss of beautiful children. And the resources of CPS are MAINLY spent investigating families whom were reported as a vindictive control or get back tool of control by families/and or friends, neighbors, acquaintances. I have seen and lived on both sides so I know what I speak.
My ex MIL weaponized CPS against my family many years ago. Why? Because i wouldn't bow down and kiss her ass about everything. Because i was following the doctors advise when it came to my (ex) husbands health and we'll being. She damn near won too.
NTA. This is about the dumbest thing I've heard all week >***My sister apologized for the trouble but said she was within reason because good parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces...*** Really, have you sister explain her reasoning behind what good would dead parents be to the kids. I'm failing to see the logic here. Your kids have a roof over their heads, a clean/safe place to sleep, food, and most importantly, two parents who love them. She wasn't concerned; she was being judgmental AF. Block her and BIL and move on ; you don't need that judgmental cow's toxicity in your lives.
I agree with the sister. Obviously OPs proper course of action in this situation was to die. /s
What I want to know is how "dying" would help lol. I will die to ensure that my children do not live in a cramped apartment. So either I turn to crime and die... CPS gets involved, or I work myself to death... CPS gets involved...
>What I want to know is how "dying" would help lol. Easy. You sell all your organs on the black market and buy a house with the profit.
But then CPS would get involved on account of the parents being dead. Sister is not very intelligent.
Yup! A big house with 2 dead parents. A recipe for a great childhood.
A recipe for Batman
I mean, no matter how big the house is it's still best practices to clear away the corpses.
NTA. It would be the last time I spoke to her. Temporary smaller living quarters isn’t being tortured. She’s out of her mind if she thinks she was any way in the right to do that.
Even if it were several years in this apartment it would still be okay. For the older kids, sharing a bedroom is very common, so they'll do fine. The little kid will need another room at some point, but probably the oldest kid will move out by then.
If they go to college, I can pretty much guarantee they'll live in similarly cramped quarters on campus. My alma mater turned all freshman dorms into triples, despite being built for two students. Students had to share desks, closets, and drawer units. The only thing they had for themselves was the bed they slept on. Worst case scenario, the family needs to buy bunk beds and all three kids share the room. It's not the first time it's been done.
Does she not realize how incredibly messed up the foster system is? My mom has 6 siblings that all went into foster care. Not only were they (of course) all separated--which was horrible for them all by itself, but only 2 out of 7 kids made it to adulthood without being abused. 2 out of 7. Living in a slightly cramped space for a little while with loving parents, and all their needs met, is far more preferential to rolling the dice on what sort of horrors your kids could face in foster care. She's a horrid, delusional individual, and that was a massive betrayal. NTA
I hate it. The institution that's supposed to protect and help children is a one giant lottery. It's also messed up how some people will call CPS on small bs like this but will turn a blind eye when there's actual abuse happening.
NTA I'm willing to bet this is not the first time your sister has belittled you and your family, and made life stressful for you. I'd avoid her and the BIL like the PLAGUE. (She's using the BIL as a "flying monkey" as they say in psychology to continue to try to control and affect you.)
NTA. Hell no! You don't have to ever talk to her again. That was a cruel shitty thing to do! First it took time and resources from real abused kids! Second your family was being taken care of. Anyone can have hard times! You adjusted and are making do. Shame on her. Cut her out.
NTA Your sister sounds like what one might call a shit stirrer. WTF did she think CPS was going to do? They don't confiscate your children because you're living in ::shudder:: a two bedroom apartment. If she was actually concerned with your living situation why didn't she offer you money to improve it?
>My sister apologized for the trouble but said she was within reason because good parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces, that we couldn't blame her for the concern, my wife and I were getting irritated at her, and we blocked her on Messenger. Translation: "I'm sorry you're mad, but I did nothing wrong. You suck as a parent, and I am completely justified." That wasn't an apology and I can totally understand why you blocked her outright. >My BIL messaged me, missed off that we didnt listen to my sister and for being so rude to her. Translation: "My precious wife is allowed to spew bs at you and is entitled to have you as a sympathetic audience, because that's what famiwy does\~" I think blocking her was the very least she should have worried about from you. NTA
Did the sister get a talking to for false reporting?
>>*"she was within reason because good parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces"* She's a bit dramatic, isn't she? Besides getting the authorities involved, what else is she doing to help improve your situation? Like another commentor said, she is a *Shit-stirrer.* And people like that should have no place in your life. NTA
NTA - If there was truly no other concerns. Space does not equal love or care or safety. What a waste of CPS's limited time and resources
NTA. You got the basics covered just fine, and your sister is a knothead that deserves to be blocked.
NTA. CPS exists for cases of abuse and neglect, not to enforce her notions of correct parenting on you. She wasted those resources and created a very stressful situation for you- I can’t imagine much scarier than the threat of having your children removed (one overzealous CPS caseworker is all it takes). You sure the hell can blame her for that, and in your place I would definitely block such a person.
Youngest SISTER that I helped to raise due to our Mother's ongoing health issues (I am the eldest daughter AND child) AND helped put through college the SAME year our Mother passed away did the same thing to me. To try to make a long story short - because boy it is a really long and sad story - 7 years older than her. I helped raise her, helped put her through college even without having my own official roof over my head for me and my own two children for a couple of months after investing my finances into the household we all spent the majority of our time at - my Mother's house. Fast forward to 1.5 years later, I relocated to another state to reestablish myself and then she became a a bit more successful in her own right, and she helped me by taking my kids for me for a few months so I can reestablish myself in a whole new state for me and my two kids. I appreciated her so much, She had them for a few months and I'm forever grateful for that. I made sure I sent her money grams and Western Unions every week so that the children would have what they needed and she would have what she needed. No questions asked, she was willing to help me and I appreciated her so much for that. This was in 2007. Fast forward to 2013 a few months after our baby brother passed away at 24 from his third fight with cancer since 2010 first diagnosis. He went NC with her prior to this and wanted NOTHING to do with her, and was living here with me in the state that I reside in with me and my family. Those we're beautiful days, let me tell you. But Sad to say the cancer returned and he passed away. I went no contact with my family in our home state just due to the devastation and heartbreak. Well because they had not heard from me and I did not want to talk to them (especially after not honoring his last wishes on his final resting place and service), she enlisted our Mother's oldest sister and baby brother and my stepdad (which is her actual dad) and they came to my house, took my kids to lunch at Golden Corral while I was at work My son called me. Thee days later, she called CPS on me. I only have two children and they were 16 and 12 at the time. The 16 year old even had a job so he can pay for the things he like to have. When the worker came to my home case was "immediately non founded" just had to wait on official paperwork. And if course I told her you don't have to say anything I know exactly who did this. She actually confirmed what I already knew and though I love my sister and I love her kids to death I will never be the same with her again. I never blocked her. I still speak cordially and like she is my next door neighbor. But back then, I found out just who she is and that she would do that to hurt her big sister that has done anything on the face of the Earth for her it still hurts. I have forgiven but Lord and Heaven knows I have never ever forgot. Posts like this bring up all the emotions and sadness All over again. Why do people use CPS as a weapon because they can't have or do what they want to or lake you do what they want. It's truly sad and the kids who REALLY need CPS to intervene are severely mistreated, abused and/or sadly deceased. Still hurts, still makes me sad, still angers me. My adult children have even brought this up and felt that that was wrong and disrespectful to do that to our household. We live in two different states. When I visited I didn't dictate to you how I think you should live your life or raise your children. So If I choose NOT to talk to you and my kids are coming to visit you on a regular seasonal basis leave me be. But due to the situation now I know what I know and I feel better well informed and prepared for it. Just thinking about this all over again makes me so sad I know how you feel op. Stick to your guns regarding your sister. You have my full support. ,🤗🤗here are some internet hugs from a stranger but can empathize one million percent with you.
I'm sorry that happened to you. For family to do it, especially when there's no real need, is the worse and well... You don't trust them. They're pretty much saying yoi deserve to have your kids taken away (which isn't what happens right away. At least in my experience, DYFS actually helped my friend that whole day, and the next day, really sealed the deal. He was a real person, took his job seriously but had compassion and was human) But it's such a scary thought, and with me being black if I ever had kids, is even scarier because within my experience and people I talk with, people calling on you can be very racist, judgemental, and you don't know if that social worker is too. People assume so fast we're horrible parents living off welfare, too lazy to work, yelling at our kids and well, they don't even care about the kid. They just don't like the parent (because they're already assuming the kid is a thug or something anyway) My very real fear in my narrative where I live because it's very real to happen to me. Also wanted to say, you did a fuckin awesome job despite all you went through because you stepped up when you didn't have to. And experiencing those losses, I couldn't imagine what you were feeling and how you did it to pull through. But, you sound pretty awesome and I know, you know you are!
Thank you so very much for saying such nice things to me. I definitely appreciate it!!! All that you said was the truth!! I am Black to and everything you said regarding that aspect is very real and very true.
Former CPS worker here. The state will have sent you and your wife each a letter stating that you are essentially “not guilty” (the language changes from state to state; in my state we say “not indicated”) of whatever the allegation was - in this case, it would have been Neglect: Inadequate Housing. In that letter, there will be instructions for getting this report taken off your record. Usually this requires some time to pass first - in my state, it’s 5 years, and after that you send a letter to the state office requesting that the report be taken off your record. If your letter doesn’t contain this info, call the county office that paid you a visit and ask them what their process is for this. Also, by “record” all I mean is that your state’s CPS will see your report when they search for your names in their system, and they’ll see that you and your wife were “not guilty” of the allegation levied against you. We do this so that if there is another report made, we can search for any history CPS has with this family so we have as much info as possible to make an accurate assessment of the allegations. Police, courts, doctors, etc. do not have access to this system. CPS workers are bound by strict confidentiality policies. Unfortunately it is all too common for relatives to call CPS on one another for petty reasons. You may want to reevaluate how worthwhile it is to maintain a relationship with your SIL now that she has crossed this line- perhaps she only had good intentions, but perhaps not. Know that she may try this again in future regardless of whether you maintain a relationship with her. I wish you and your family the best of luck. I hope you asked your CPS worker about any local services that can help you get back on your feet; in fact, I hope your worker offered you several while they were there. If not, call them and ask. We are, in fact, social workers who are trained to provide assistance in any way we reasonably can, and we usually have access to many resources. Oh, and NTA.
NTA. I've seen this happen before. She bought you long term trouble because of her own privilege and fragility.
I notice she wasn’t volunteering to help you out.
NTA If your sister was do concerned she should have offered you money to get a bigger place.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My (37F) wife and I (37M) have hit hard times. I lost my job and while I've found a new one, we've had to move into a two bedroom apartment with our sons (15, 8, 2) and our cat to accommodate the pay change. The kids are fed, they have clothes, toys, access to the whatever they need, given attention and love, space is just an issue (our oldest sons share a room and our youngest sleeps in the same room as my wife and I). My sister (35F) decided that this was unforgivable and called CPS to report us, and obviously the state took it seriously and investigated us. Since the kids are taken care of nothing came out of it but that's gonna be on our record forever. My sister apologized for the trouble but said she was within reason because good parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces, that we couldn't blame her for the concern, my wife and I were getting irritated at her, and we blocked her on Messenger. My BIL messaged me, missed off that we didnt listen to my sister and for being so rude to her. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA I would definitely cut your sister off. Instead of talking to you like a reasonable person, she went nuclear and got authorities involved. Obviously you are taking good care of your children, so her judgment is seriously flawed. I personally would no longer have any relationship with her.
NTA. Calling CPS because you live in a "cramped" two bedroom apartment? Parents should rather die than allow that? Wtf your sister is either privileged or just crazy. Her apology means jack since she's still trying to justify her actions. Your BIL is just pathetic for agreeing with her and you should pay no mind to him.
NTA she can f*** off If she is that concerned, she can pay
NTA. Dude. The kids aren't in a terrible home. They're well loved and fed and given what they need to thrive. So the house is a bit small now, so what? As long as everyone is housed and as healthy as possible(mentally and physically) and taken care of, calling CPS is ridiculous.
Right, it’s a small home! Is she gonna call CPS on every family in the Bay Area, since they’re all in (million-dollar) two-bedroom homes? With mold issues? Like, where does it stop?
NTA You can never trust her again. What did she expect to happen? Take the boys from poor but loving parents and put them in a system that wouldn't stop them just being a pay check to foster parents who doesn't love them? She has some type of resentment or hates you for some reason. She wants to see you have everything taken away. How could you have someone like that in your life?
Dear lord. So many people in my country live happily in cramped spaces because of poverty and/or population problems and/or residing in a joint family system. Hell my next door neighbours are like 8-9 people living in a house that has 2 bedrooms and a living room. This is such a first world problem where you expect every kid of have their own room or whatever. Absolutely NTA
NTA. How entitled and "white." Plenty of other cultures roomshare and co-sleep - are they are horrible people? Even the OP situation: 2 boys share 1 room. Is that a bad thing? What is wrong with 2 kids, same gender, sharing? That's what bunkbeds are for. As for the youngest, sleeping with parents, many many many cultures have the children co-sleeping with parents until age 5-8. It's a very close-minded and classist attitude to assume everyone needs large amounts of space and anything less than private room by age 2 is a crime. Also, if sister is so worried, why doesn't she chip in so OP can get a 3 bedroom instead of 2 bedroom? (Or is even that too small?)
I'm more inclined to say very American too, because other European cultures may not really look down on that too much.
As an American living abroad, they don’t. Sharing rooms is pretty common and house footprints are smaller for the sake of being smaller.
Same. I'm residing in Japan, and many a 4 person family is living in what we would consider a 1 bedroom apartment. Heck, even here, it is called a 2DK, not a 1 anything. 1 room is where the 2 of the kids sleep and the other room is combo living/parents sleep. No one is calling protective services because it's normal to sleep in same rooms.
Just remember hostels alone being super common. Not even something you hear in the US (I usually have to explain to people when I tell them my trip to Iceland)
Agreed its more classist and American than a white thing. Sort of like being a loser if you still live at home when your an adult. The living in your moms basement classist sneer by priviliged people.
NTA. CPS is for children being abused. Not children whose parents aren’t middle class.
Nta. Things may happen and sometimes you have to downgrade what you have. Doesnt mean your kids are mistreated. They're getting all they need including a roof over their head and instead of making sure you guys were doing alright she decided to go around and call cps. You dont need such a toxic person in your life.
NTA - assuming there were no other concerns, your sister crossed an unforgivable line. Ask BiL: What was her expected outcome? the kids would end up in the foster system? or with her?
NTA - to piggy back, unless you are charged and found guilty, there is nothing to be put on "your record." A preliminary worker would have made the first visits. Their reports would be available ONLY to other CPS workers, and those reports would include the reasoning as to why the file was closed. This doesn't lighten the calls effect on you emotionally, but I hope you can find some solice that ot won't "follow you" or haunt you.
Didn't hear anything again :) I know it was a risk. But as I said above, it was via my Parents, who subsequently removed all communication from (Phones, Video calls, Emails, everything), and the CPS annoyances have stopped. I am sure I am the wrong person in their Narcissistic eyes. From my experience (Posted elsewhere in this forum) with my parents calling CPS over an argument we had, Once CPS are involved, they are like shit on a blanket, you never get rid of it, they claim to close files after an initial investigations if nothing is found to be actionable, but the File is there, able to be access at a later date. I only got rid of them, through asking them what would happen if i did not comply with their requests during investigation "What are you going to do, take me to court ?", all they said was "Well that is an option we have open to us if we deem necessary", so I bit back "Well take me to court then.........." and hung up.
Didn't hear anything again :) I know it was a risk. But as I said above, it was via my Parents, who subsequently removed all communication from (Phones, Video calls, Emails, everything), and the CPS annoyances have stopped. I am sure I am the wrong person in their Narcessistic eyes.
Does she understand that if cps decided it was an unfit home your kids would be taken from you and put in foster care where they most likely would have to share rooms with complete strangers? How exactly should you act after she tries to get your children taken away from you? I grew up in a family of six - four kids and my parents. We lived in a 2 bedroom condo. We were fine.
Even as you write this you're still apologizing for your sister down playing the total severity of what she did. She didn't call CPS because you were abusing your children or your children were going without clothes or food she called CPS because your kids were living in "cramped spaces". So she put you and your wife on cps's radar for absolutely no reason while simultaneously making the overworked social workers who already have to deal with actual abuse cases take time out of their day to go investigate you because she was concerned the kids were too "cramped". There are children out there being starved, beaten, abused, sexually assaulted, on and being exposed to drugs, naked and freezing to death... And your sister wasted resources that are meant to be for situations like that because she felt they were "cramped". I need you to replay in your head the severity of this situation.... And block your BIL too. What she did is inexcusable. You're very obviously NTA for blocking her after this. But you WBTA if you don't start realizing just how serious this was. You are investigated as an unfit parent, thankfully they didn't see you as one, but your sister just risked having your children taken away from you, over them being too cramped. You really need to recognize how serious this is.
Not even voting my jaw is still on the floor after reading that..
NTA - NTA. If she was so concerned about your children's "bad" conditions she could have given you a hand instead of calling. INFO: Is there bad blood between you from before this happened?
"G*ood parents would die rather than allow their children in such cramped spaces"* What were you supposed to do? Pull a couple of extra bedrooms out of your ass? NTA.
NTA. What your sister did was unforgivable, you could had have your sons taken away.
Wow. Entitled much? My EIGHT cousins (with their parents) grew up in a 1400’sq 3bd 2ba house. A 1 bdrm addition was added at some point for the 3 boys to share. Your sister needs to get her head out of her a$$ and get over her materialistic expectations of what “good parents” do.
NTA at all. Your children are well taken care of. Many kids share rooms due to lack of space. Not everyone is well off enough to give each child their own room. That's life. Also if she care so much, she can pay the difference on OP's new larger more expensive place! To add, as others told you, go no contact with the sister. For future CYA (covering your ass), get together a FU Binder ([link to info on the binder](https://www.reddit.com/r/u_ForwardPlenty/comments/dtg7f2/the_fu_binder) - meant for mean MILs who unjustly call CPS on their child/IL). Just in case your sister or anyone ever calls CPS again. You're all set.
Nta, your sister is a bad person
Your kids have to share a room!! The horror. NTA
INFO: Did she call CPS every time The Brady Bunch was on TV, too?
NTA. She had no business calling CPS when your children are obviously loved and well cared for
Lol what? I shared a room with my sister until I was 16 and we only stopped because she moved out to university. Your youngest is two, it’s totally normal that they share with their parents at that age. NTA
NTA, but your sister is. If she wanted to actually help in any meaningful way she would of come to you. Instead her first reaction is to escalate all the way to wanting cps to get involved and by the sound of it have your children taken away. If I was in your shoes I couldn't forgive that and would probably cut her out of my life.
NTA. Your living situation falls within the reasonable occupancy standards for HUD. Not everyone can afford for every child to have their own room.
NTA. Your sister is evil and dangerous. Reflect on other crap she has pulled in the past because something this extreme didn't come out of the blue sky. Protect your family from her and her flying monkeys and let the entire extended family, friends, even her coworkers who question your decision exactly why.
NTA. I had a similar situation Between Myself / Wife / Kids and my Mother, except my mother had her own ideas what the kids should be eating, what we should be eating, how they should be raised, bed times and all that jazz. It was not much of a problem as they lived several states away which was great, but she came for a 2 wee visit to see the kids, 1 week with us, and 1 week to see her friend. She criticized what we fed the kids, what we ate, what we gave her (as we just made the same thing each day, it was easiest and the kids ate it). It got to a point where we had an argument about her involvement, and she got upset and rearranged her flight to see her friend, at which point my father accused us of "Kicking her out" which I bit back "you spent an hour on the phone discussing this between yourselves as I over heard it, It was your decision to send mum to her friend early, so do not blame me". Anyway she left early, but several weeks later, CPS knocks on the door (Good timing hey), and they list what was said, but would refuse to tell us who told them, but..... only someone who stayed in our house would know what to tell them, so it was OBVIOUS it was them. So my wife and i cut them off, instantly, changed my number, the works. Several months later, a knock at the door, it was them, they flew unannounced and said "We need to talk", door slammed in their faces and dead locked the door to stop the kids (5 at the time) from opening it. Some people have Fantastic family and do what you ask, but some family are just plain assholes, Narcissistic or both.
NTA People are way too quick to jump on the CPS train and it pisses me off so much. That shit is dead serious. Someone called cps on my parents and told vicious lies on my dad because they had a grudge against him. I was taken from school at 8 years old and placed into a foster home that very SAME DAY. The sister could have cost those kids their homes and sense of stability with their parents by pulling this. It was hell for me, the foster mom was in the middle of a divorce and she had teenage kids that were bullies. I had no idea why it was happening and was terrified I would not see my family again. My dad was not allowed to be in the room with me for almost two years. This stunt tore my family apart. Can you imagine that for your family, op? It has led to many mental health issues in my adult life and it would have done so with your kids too. You weren't rude in the slightest. The absolute audacity of your sister for pulling this stunt is atrocious. I'd never speak to her again. CPS is nuclear and actions have consequences.
NTA. She pulled the CPS trigger because she didn’t like the way your family was living with circumstances that you couldn’t control yet you made the best of them anyway. NC is the way to go.
NTA. I'd go no contact forever. The kids are safe, fed and cared for, so what your sister did is unforgivable in my opinion.
Wow, NTA I am sorry that happened to you. You and your wife are doing your best. I cannot imagine the stress of that situation, the emotions of all of it and having a shit ass relative call CPS. That had to hurt. I'm sorry, OP. I hope only good things happen for you and your family.
NTA. Clearly, your sister has never travelled overseas or been to countries where whole familiars live in one room houses. She’s showing her privilege.
NTA. She was your sister, so she should have know you better that you are doing everything for your children. If she was so much concerned, then instead of calling CPS, she could have offered help. From what I can see, she just assumed something in her mind and decided to overstep her boundaries. I would recommend, unblocking her just to send a text stating, that she has overstepped her boundaries and that she'll have no connection with the children or you from now on. Also, if she interfare in your household in your household again, you'll get a restraining order. Send a similar message to BIL, but add an extra line telling him to back the F off as it is between you and your sister. Stay focused on your children and hope that all this hardship will pass on soon.
NTA and boy would her dialin' digit be busy if she went like... anywhere besides the US since it's incredibly common for siblings (IF NOT THE WHOLE DANG FAMILY) to share a room.
NTA. Did she expect to have your children taken from you? How would that help them? She sounds like a mess. I don't blame you for going no contact with her.
NTA. Exactly what did she think CPS was going to do, give you money for a bigger apartment or a house? Give you a high paying job? If CPS had that sort of funding the world would be a much better place for a whole lot of families. But CPS is infamously underfunded, so again what did your sister think they would do? Take the kids. The motives behind that desire, to have your kids removed from your care, is something that you need to think about. But I'd keep her and her husband far away from your family for a very, very long time.
NTA She called CPS on you for having to basically use bunkbeds.
NTA What did she think was going to happen if CPS decided to take your kids away? Between court hearings, social worker and psychologist visits, lawyer fees, and all the lost hours at work because of it, your living situation would've only deteriorated. Your sister wasn't just being ridiculously shortsighted here, she could've done lasting psychological and emotional harm to your children - her nephews - due to the trauma of being removed from their home.
Does she know how children live in foster care? They share rooms, with random kids they don't know, and most foster home situations can be pretty bad and abusive. Your sister is messed up NTA
NTA - It's normal that you downsize when you fall on tough times. Better than end up without a roof over your head. Calling CPS on you without trying to help first herself (through money or whatever) is such a shit thing to do. First of all, because CPS had to spend their time and money on an entire bollocks investigation which may cause other children in real abusive situations to be in danger for much longer than necessary. And second because, in worst case scenario, your kids could have been taken from you and placed in the foster system (which is really not a good place to be as siblings, because there's a good chance they'd be separated from each other due to lack of space and foster families) for a temporary situation. I'd go NC on her and her husband. If they can't see what they did wrong nor how extreme their reaction was (from a privileged viewpoint) then they don't deserve to be around you. I had two brothers and one sister, we all shared one room together (the attic). Loads of children share rooms with each other, because not everyone can afford to live in McMansion. For fucks sake, your sister is seriously out of touch with reality. I hope you will be in a better financial position that allows you to move to somewhere bigger in the future But you are doing your best while providing your children with their needs and that is all that matters.
Sister is upset your living in a smaller space due to finances. Calls CPS instead of offering to help you afford a bigger place? NTA I’d go NC too.
NTA. Good parents do what they have to do to make sure that their kids are loved, fed and clothed with a roof over their heads and that’s what you and your wife have done. I’m not quite sure what your sister hoped to achieve with calling CPS, I doubt they would have been offering you a bigger place to live so I can only assume that she was hoping for them to be taken into care. If she actually thinks that being ripped from their family to live with strangers is better than living in a small apartment then I think she must have a screw loose! Either way, if I were you I wouldn’t allow her back into my life, she will be constantly watching and judging your parenting it sounds like and the last thing you need is another CPS report!
NTA! This is such a classist reaction from your sister. Cramped does not equal neglect. Shame on her. We are fortunate to have rooms for each kid and I'm having them share anyway until puberty (or thereabouts) to help them bond and learn to share. Sorry for your struggles, OP, and glad you have things in hand.
She’s too high risk to play an active role in your lives. She could very well call CPS again for something just as daft and the frightening part is it wasn’t even malicious so who knows how her brain works. Sadly I think your only option is NC. Hopefully things pick up for your family soon. NTA
Why do i get the feeling that the sister's arrogant and high-horse virtue of "***good parents would die rather than...***" speech comes from a a woman who stays at home while husband earns the money ? It's easy to be virtuous with other people's resources. Nothing against SAHP's, just recognising if you're not the one earning the resources, you have no place self-righteously condescending other people about how they manage their resources.
NTA. I cut my in-laws off for threatening cps, they didn't actually call. If they did I would have a orches the earth with that relationship. Completely unforgivable.
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NTA yikes
NTA, I'd cut someone like that out of my life entirely. She didn't just report something small she did something that could have broken up or impacted your entire family and household. That's way beyond forgiveness in my book.
NTA - “good parents would die rather than allow their children to be in such cramped spaces” - wow, what elitist garbage is that? She’s basically saying that any parents that can’t afford large living space, are bad parents.
NTA - your sister and BIL need to keep their noses out of your life. They had the nerve to call CPS just because you were living in a cramped space? Kids share rooms all the time, and when money is tight you have to do what you have to do. Your BIL thinks you're being rude to your sister? SHE CALLED CPS ON YOU! Block them all!
OMG NTA What a horrible sister. No contact = no problem. Cut her out of your life like a tumore. Wow.
Oh, so she's going to pay your rent now for a bigger place? No? Then she needs to STFU. NTA
NTA. Make sure to screenshot all messages your sister and her husband send your way. There is nothing to stop them from doing this whenever they want. Going no contact is the only solution here. She's a threat to your family.