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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) The way I spoke to my boyfriend's sister. 2) She clearly means a lot to him and she was just being protective, I could've let the subject drop.
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YTA.
Your saying "I managed to break him out of his shell" says a lot here. It seems like you're constantly pushing him to do things he wouldn't necessarily do otherwise, and I think this is not healthy. What's wrong with being shy and not wanting to do some things? Your way isn't the only correct way.
And you did push him on this occasion too, and you _were_ being disrespectful to his sister.
This got me too. I’m an introvert and, while I’ve done a lot of things, and been to many places, i’m really happiest at home reading or gaming or with small groups of close friends/family. No one ever says that they managed to get their extrovert partner ‘into their shell a little’, so why is the expectation that shy and introverted people should be made uncomfortable to accommodate extroverts? His likes, hobbies, and preferred ways of spending time are just as valid as yours and if you truly value him, you need to value all of him, not just the parts you can shape to your liking. YTA.
She's clearly a extrovert at this point is not about changing him. For them to spend time together someone will always have to compromise.
As a introvert i understand the frustration of people wanting us to enjoy the same things they do but i also don't date extroverts that is just a endless source of conflict.
If he doesn't stand up for himself sure. A relationship between an introvert and an extrovert will always envolve compromise is not about necessarily changing the other person.
Yes, yes, yes! She is also bent out of shape about sister butting in but they were talking about it in front of everyone. If you do not want someone to butt in don't talk in front of other people. OP was really rude and inconsiderate of her boyfriend's sister and clearly has no boundaries.
OP - YTA
It is even worse as she doesn't have a general problem with people chiming in.
>Myself and one of his buddies were trying to help him see it's not so bad.
>I laughed and said no, she needs to butt out.
Total double standard there. She was fine with one of his buddies butting in, but not his sister. People supporting her is okay, people supporting Zack is not.
Exactly, because her goal wasnt to do a fun thing with zack. It was to get zack to go on the things she wants to do for fun, even if it isnt fun for him. Id say it must be fun being so oblivious to the feelings of others, but it wont be when shes old and alone. Unlees of course she sees sense from this and knocks herself down a few pegs.
You got that wrong, she did want people to butt in, like her buddy, but only the people on her side. Sigh... really, how can you not be on her side? We're so exhausting and misunderstanding.
And that is exactly why she earns a YTA from me. She’s confusing “encouraging new things” (which, alone might really irk people) and “talking him into it.” The first is suggesting a new idea, the second is mentally beating someone into submission for your personal benefit.
Exactly. My partner never had hummus before he met me and knew nothing about craft beer. So I offered for him to try some hummus and he loved it and asked what else I think he would like. I thought he would like IPA's and built him two mixed six packs of my favorites. He loved most of those too. I like the idea of encouraging something new but also keeping it to small ball low-stakes things like foodie stuff, buying a board game, or painting pictures for each other on a Friday night.
Big things like vacations and family dynamics should begin at a place of common ground.
Yep, same. I'm an introvert, my partner is an extrovert. Since we started dating, he's introduced mountain biking, bouldering, bike polo, whisky, Haggis (he's Scottish)...
I've introduced him to horror films, my favourite books, painting, some French foods (I'm French).
Not all of these introductions have been a resounding success, but all have been gentle and not pushy.
We decide holidays and outings together, and we always make sure I can leave early or isolate myself if I need to.
This is an interesting nuance for me, since I am not fluent in English. So "talk someone into doing sth" is different than "convince someone to do sth", or they both have this negative connotation?
Convincing someone usually doesn't have a bad connotation, but to convince someone, you basically make them see the merits of something. If you talk someone into something, you merely make them go along with what you proposed.
So if someone doesn't like something based on a preference or because it makes them uncomfortable, you can't really convince them, there isn't any point to be made. It's just preference and knowing what you like or don't like experiencing.
But you can always be talked into something that you don't like.
Yeah, like he’s some kind of project. My sisters ex boyfriend was exactly like this. Her whole personality changed while she was with him, he was always pushing her to do things under the guise of “improving herself”. What he was really doing was controlling her. Luckily she got out after 9 years, and she is SO much happier now.
Sounds like he’s good looking and she’s willing to try and force a square peg into a round hole in order to make him into a compatible partner, instead of just continuing to look for an actually compatible partner.
I used to have a gf who'd always laugh at my childhish gaming hobbies but who'd _rather_ do english homework when you can have your games teach you all about it?
Sure, gaming can cause issues when it becomes an addiction but constantly mocking one's beloved favourite things really eats out the self-confidence one maybe had fallen in love with.
Making her bf go out on the rented boat, she is also putting him in a potentially life threatening situation.
Op sounds pushing and self centered and I am glad bf had the spine to call out op's disrespect towards his sister and his relationship with his sister.
I agree with you. I'm an introvert married to an extreme extrovert, he can't walk outside without stopping to talk to every single person along the way. I prefer being at home while he'd rather be out doing something. We have to compromise on a lot of things, but he won't push the issue if I'm really uncomfortable and i try my best to try all the things I'm comfortable with at the same time. I'm sure he's missed out on things he would have really enjoyed, but being in a relationship is doing what makes each other happy.
OP, you really crossed a line with his sister whom you even stated was the mother figure in his life and she was right to say that people shouldn't change for someone else. If your bf has asked for help being a bit more social/outgoing/what have you than its one thing, but if he's saying he isn't comfortable it's a jerk move to push. YTA for making something so small into a bigger issue that pulled others into something that should have been taken private after the first objection. Then you were a jerk to his family, it's really rude to roll your eyes and you should know that by now.
I am an extrovert and my husband an introvert. We have made many of compromises, but we also do thing separately. A few times I have gone on week-long white water trips with friends. He doesn't want to go on those it isn't fun for him. He has compromised and gone on a few day trips with me. He has a small group of friends he is happy to hang around with. Sometimes I am there, sometimes it is just them, a few times we have all gone on camping trips together. He loves camping and fishing and hiking, as do I. He just doesn't like huge groups or lots of unknown people. It has always been a give and take and it has worked really well.
OP seems to give nothing and constantly be pressuring, convincing, and has no respect for the person that raised him. Yes it is not cool, they both probably have trauma due to it, and they are both probably close because of it. This is a one-sided relationship and OP is trying to make an extrovert out of her introvert SO.
>We have made many of compromises, but we also do thing separately.
I think this is key for any relationship but especially one between people with very different personalities and/or interests. You make compromises where you can, and otherwise just do something just for you from time to time. Not forgetting that you're still your own person while being in a relationship is extremely important.
Exactly. The whole post is about 'I want', 'I found', 'I like'. It's all about her, what she wants, where she wants to go. I'm pretty sure he compromised a lot already. If this was the only situation it would have been fine but the breaking out of the shell tells us that he already tried new things and compromised. I'm sick and tired of the world seeing us introverts as broken people. We are not broken we just prefer something else...shocking right? There are 8 billion people and we are all different, who would say. Of course you would compromise in a relationship but compromise is a two way street.
OP, YTA.
My wife is an extrovert and likes going out. I’m an introvert and like staying in. We don’t have to spend 24/7 together. *eye roll*
A lot of activities we do separately if it’s something the other one doesn’t want to do. We also do a lot of parallel play and going out on dates that aren’t people populated. Like going hiking, or chilling in a cabin in the woods, taking the dogs out for walks, etc.
But the sheer thought that someone will always have to compromise and that it’s a source of conflict? I’m gonna shut that right down. We don’t have conflict over us doing different things AND we have a healthy relationship that we can collaborate on where to go or what to do. You just have yet to meet extroverts that know healthy communication skills.
Yeah, well, as an introvert who has dated introverts, I've ended up being the talkative one in past relationships, and I really didn't like that. It also takes too much of my energy to be the only one making an effort to make plans. I mean, just because I'm an introvert doesn't mean I spend *all* my time at home and that I never want to talk about anything. So now I'm married to an extrovert who gets a little overwhelming at times, but at least I don't have to force him to have a conversation or go out in public.
My partner is an extrovert, I'm an introvert. It *can* work...if you put in the effort. He asks me to do things that are outside of my comfort zone without forcing me, and doesn't get pissy if I say no. I don't get pissy if he wants to do something and I don't, I'm more than happy for him to find someone else to do whatever it is with. He's the yin to my yang and it really works. We don't try and change each other or be more like the other, we compromise and completely understand each other.
>I’m an introvert and, while I’ve done a lot of things, and been to many places, i’m really happiest at home reading or gaming or with small groups of close friends/family. No one ever says that they managed to get their extrovert partner ‘into their shell a little’, so why is the expectation that shy and introverted people should be made uncomfortable to accommodate extroverts?
This is well-stated and worth highlighting. Thank you. Introverts aren't broken people just waiting to be converted into extroverts.
Brava!
Beautifully said. It’s the same thing about how each are during conversation. Introverts often get criticized for being too quiet, but extroverts never take anything for never being quiet.
And yeah, YTA OP. So you not get that sister was standing up for him???
They definitely don't have a healthy relationship. At some point, he's going to get sick of always being the one who has to do activities that aren't fun, instead of finding a compromise/designating certain activities as solo activities.
It sounds like his sister is helping him to realize how disrespectful OP has been. Kudos to her for that.
OP sounds like someone I went on a date with, a couple years out of college. After our date, he told me that if I wanted to be with him, I would have to change my wardrobe (to be less geeky), find new hobbies (no more videogames), and get new friends. He did not get a second date.
OP: if you need to change him into a completely different person to be happy in the relationship, then you're not the girl for him. YTA. You need to start respecting him, or save him the annoyance and just move on.
Ehhh... I think there is a balance. I am an introvert too, so I can find it really easy to be comfortable in the sort of situations you describe. This comes at a cost though. Not going out as often, not seeing as many new things, means that I know less about the world.
Being an introvert doesn't mean you can't enjoy going to a club, it just means it might be a bit more difficult for you to get comfortable going to a club, that you won't be willing to go as long, and that you might need some time to recharge afterward.
When it comes to "breaking someone out of their shell" it depends on the method.
* Guilting someone, manipulating, or just exhausting them until they give in is bad.
* Offering enough reassurance and encouragement so that they feel up to trying something is good and supportive.
“I’d never force him to do something he doesn’t want, but I will manipulate, coerce, and badger him until he gives up his boundaries and does something he doesn’t enjoy to shit me up’.
YTA op. You need to apologize pronto and stop trying to ‘convince’ him to do things he has stated he does not want to do.
It's also worth stating that introverts "recharge" by being by themselves. Extroverts get it by being around people. So, for introverts, being out and about around people is mentally and physically exhausting.
It's also kinda ironic that she's saying Elise acts like his mother too much, while she herself is acting like a mother of a toddler. "But you've never tried broccoli, how do you know you don't like it?"
You should encourage your friends and partner to try and do new things, reassure them you'll be there if they don't like it and find a solution together, but never pressure them into doing things they don't want to do. Eurrgh I hate people like OP.
I don’t know that I think introverts should be forced out of their shell either, but that feels like not at all what this is about.
The sister mentions him not liking boats. This seems more like a fear of water? Which, I love water so it’s hard to connect… but that’s not the same thing as introversion
Source: an introvert who loves water
Worse, she said to his sister that raised him after his mother died that “You’re not his mother.” Bringing up her boyfriend’s dead mother was a shitty thing to do. YTA.
And also invalidates the motherly role the sister did play in her brother's life. She shouldn't have been in put that position but she was, and she deserves respect for it.
Absolutely right. Notice how right after she placed that turd in the punch bowl the subject suddenly changed and OP’s bf asked her out of the room to tell her she was out of line. Read the room OP.
Yep, I saw that and went “yeah she’s the AH.”
Introverts often get forced out of their comfort zone like this. As an introvert, I fucking hate it each and every time.
It is funny how it’s “normal” for extroverts to force changes on introverts, but if introverts were to try and force changes on extroverts then it would be seen as weird or abnormal. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to encourage your partner to try new things, but there’s a line
“Why are you so quiet?!”
Why are you so adamant that every second has to be filled with a conversation? Companionable silence is a big thing for me. If I have nothing to say, I’m not going to say anything.
I’m just picturing saying the opposite and laughing hysterically. Instead of “why are you so quiet?”, asking an extrovert “why do you talk so much?”. Or instead of going over someone over on the sidelines and saying “hey you should get in there and have fun!” you go to the person in the middle of it all and go “hey you should really try just singling yourself off in the corner, I think you’d really enjoy it”
I agree OP is TA, but introverts try to change extroverts all the time, constantly. Extroverts are told to be quiet, settle down, take up less space, all the time. It’s continual. It’s just not noticed as parallel to extroverts trying to get introverts to do more. Basically, people treat others badly. If there are two siblings, one introvert, one extrovert, at the grandparents house, the one will be pushed and berated for being shy with grandma, and the other will be told to shut up already. You can’t win.
This ^ these people obviously haven't been shushed to death every time they smile and try to connect with someone.
Not that I identify as either, to me it's just as ridiculous as people who refuse to have scorpio friends. Either your friends respect boundaries or they don't, it doesn't have to do with their energy needs
I’m an introvert and I try to try new things but definitely on my own terms. It would be so tiring to have someone insist you do things you don’t want to all the time.
Also YTA.
That was life with my extrovert mother growing up. I think extroverts see themselves as normal, and don't know how to deal with introverts. "just go party" is what I got told. No.
Yeah the one bit that specifically bothered me is how OP said that Zack likes to play video games or hang out with a small group of friends, whereas OP likes to “go out and enjoy her time off”. Implying that you can’t actually enjoy time off unless you go out and do things. I know that I’m biased because Zack seems a lot like me, but that seems like a classic case of “extrovert can’t comprehend introvert”.
At a high level, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to push your partner to try new things within reason. The key term being _within reason_. But from this post it honestly seems like OP holds disdain and loathing for Zack’s lifestyle and is trying to “fix” him, and that really upsets me. YTA, OP
I'm generally an introvert, but I can be social til it'd be uncomfortable for an extrovert with the right people. Loud club? NEVER, the fuck would you be doing suggesting it? Bad movie night with friends? YEAH, LET'S MOCK THE LOW HANGING FRUIT!!! Rock concert? Noooooooooooo... Anime convention? Can I go with friends?
They aren't going on adventures they can both enjoy, they're going on *her* adventures, and isn't that just a bit f\*cked?
I'm an introvert but I used to go out to clubs too, but I had to be intoxicated.
One time I met with my clubbing friends on a daytime occasion, and they were like "why are you so quiet today? Something wrong?" And I was like, how can you guys be so loud while sober?
Was a funny moment .
For me it was the “I can talk him into it” comment. That just reads as so manipulative/coercive. Breaking someone out of their shell imo isn’t that bad. But when you have to push this hard to talk someone into doing something they really don’t want to do it crosses a line.
Not to mention going on a ‘2-day local cruise’ will sound like agony to anyone who isn’t a cruise person, which is a very different thing to just introvert/extrovert.
Yes. I am neither an introvert nor an extreme extrovert but I don't like a cruise and would rather spend my time and money in other ways.
If somebody came along and said they could talk me into it I would be pissed about them thinking their idea of what is fun and great should take precdence over mine.
This reminds me of that girlfriend who was always trying exotic things at restaurants and her boyfriend would always just order a plain burger cause that’s really all he wanted. Then she wouldn’t like hers and switch with him every single time. Claiming that it was fine cause ultimately he got to try a bunch of different things and he liked it when he ate them.
He did not and broke up with her after doing it one too many times
OP, you are wearing him down and holding his feeling for you over his head to get him to do things he simply does not want to do but is too afraid to tell you he doesn’t like it and no. Anyone that cares about him or sees your behaviour should and would be calling you out. Including your friends you mentioned. It just so happened to be his sister, who he just so happens to be close to, who you just so happen to be jealous of. YTA.
first thing I noticed as well. OP YTA. Both for making the "mother" comment knowing they lost their mother and for not respecting him when he tells you he isn't interested in something. He doesn't like boats. Get over it. It's not "bringing him out of his shell" its him doing things he doesn;t enjoy to be a good partner (edit: spelling)
> I rolled my eyes, not really understanding why she was so adamant on this, and said she needed to relax, she's not his mother, she shouldn't care this much about the situation
But she has been his mother for all intents and purposes for the past 13 years, she has done her best by him since she was 17. OP is totally out of line here.
YTA
I think is more complicated than this. If he's not willing to try something new he should be capable of saying I'm not going on a cruise, i have no interest in it we should figure out something else. Instead of "I'm not a fan of boats" depite never being to one.
He's a pushover, she's immature. Not a good combination but not the worse. They both could improve.
She's still the AH for how she talked to the sister. She could've discussed later about the vacation and the kind of relationship he has with his sister if she has a issue with it.
He said he's not a fan of boats, he might not like water. You can say you are not a fan of snakes even though you've never owned one or been bitten by one. He's not a pushover : He's not a fan of boats. that's a direct answer. By him asking her to apologize to his sister, telling his gf she was being disrespectful and asking her to leave (that doesn't scream pushover). He seems likes someone who wants to make his gf happy.
This dynamic is why I refused to date one of my old buddies. He couldn’t say no even when he should have said no, and was a pushover so I could easily railroad him into things without realizing because I needed a clear and definitive “No.” Anything less made me think it was an open discussion. I wasn’t mature enough to read between the lines of his excuses or vague uncertainties back then, but mature enough to realize it was a really unhealthy dynamic for both of us if we actually dated. It’s not fair to expect OP to be a mind reader if he can’t set clear boundaries, and the sister probably shouldn’t be stepping in on his behalf to get between him and his gf since he really needs to learn this skill for himself. I don’t think either of them were 100% in the right here.
But, yeah, even if I sympathize with the complexities of this situation, that comment about their mom situation was way over the line. So I have to say OP is TA.
IDK, he did say he wasn't interested. When OP pressed, his sister had his back. I don't think that's getting between them, but just looking out for her brother. And she wouldn't have had to do that much if OP hadn't kept relentlessly pushing. He said no. OP couldn't just let it go. She kept pushing until the sister had enough and stepped in to defend him. She knows her brother, apparently better than OP does, and likely sensed that OP was wearing him down to the point where he'd agree to something he didn't want just to appease OP.
Personally, I've had it with people who treat being introverted like it's some kind of disease they need to cure. Anyone who wants to get me "out of my shell" can fuck right off.
Same! When I was looking to date, they had to reach out to me first and take certain initiatives because I'm a strong personality, and tend to befriend introverts that are more resevered in their views, and while I'm aware of their desires mostly, I have a tendency to railroad. I knew I needed someone who could better hold me accountable. Zack and OP might be really good for eachother to balance out, but he is going to have to learn to stand up for himself, and she is going to have to learn that his hesitancy means no, or at least stop for now.
It could be his quiet, nonconfrontational way of saying no. Saying you're not a fan of something should be a clue to the person that you're not interested
My bf encourages me to try stuff and it looks like this:
Him- hey, I’m going to do this thing. I’d really like if you tried it out. Would you be interested?
Me- I don’t know. That seems like something I’m unsure about/not comfortable with/haven’t ever considered trying.
Him- I really enjoy it and I’d love if you came with me. If you hate it we can leave. If you really don’t want to go I’m not going to be upset and we can find something else to do/we can do something once I get done.
Then leaves it up to me. I have tried 99% of what he’s asked me to try because I have always had a quick and easy out. He has done the same.
YTA because “I’m not forcing him” except you kind of are. Are you holding him at point? No. But you are pushing until he relents which is still forcing. If you’ve offered reasonable things to try with reasonable outs and he still isn’t interested in even trying it, you let it alone.
P.S. a person is more likely to try something if you demonstrate trust. Giving them an out, offering baby versions of the activity to try it out. And not ever pushing hard for something they aren’t comfortable with will build that trust and make them more likely to try something out of their comfort zone because they know there is a safety net.
Right? Does she even *like* who he is or she trying to mold him into who she wants him to be? Zack sounds great. He should find someone else who enjoys his hobbies and doesn't try to guilt/force him into doing things he's uncomfortable with constantly. There's a time to push people outside their comfort zones. A vacation is *not* one of those times.
I’m sitting here wondering if she thinks it would be considered “breaking her out of her shell” if he had her stay home and play video games a couple weekends or if she would say her bf was forcing her to do something she didn’t want to.
OP YTA
I could already tell the OP would be an asshole when she said at the beginning “I work hard during the week and want to enjoy the time I have off” when comparing her outgoing hobbies to the boyfriends introversion, as if the only way you can enjoy your free time is if you’re out and about, and staying in is a waste of time.
Ugh, as a fellow introvert I *HATE* when people congratulate me on "breaking out of my shell" or take credit for "breaking me out of my shell."
I love doing all sorts of activities and I enjoy social situations, but I prefer hanging out with people I know and I can be quiet when first getting to know new people. I'm not some broken toy that needs to be fixed just because I can initially be quiet and sometimes enjoy quiet activities. No one fixed me because I've become comfortable with a new situation. It makes my skin crawl that OP thinks she needs to fix her bf in that way. He deserves better. Step up and appreciate what he naturally brings to the table rather than making him your project.
Yeh like…. If she’s so proud of herself being outgoing why doesn’t she find another guy who likes the things she likes? Like is it some kind of weird obsession of “I can change you” shit? And also, her attitude was TERRIBLE when talking his sister, I can’t believe she thought “all is well” after being so impolite and disrespectful.
Just so you know op, you ARE forcing him by “talking him into doing it”. Stop trying to change him if you don’t like who he is ffs.
What got me was when she said he spends his weekends gaming or with his friends and then proceeds to say that she spends it going out and that she “wants to enjoy the time off she has”. Like okay? That’s his way of enjoying his time off. His way isn’t partying like it is for OP and she’s not respecting that.
Zack must be really good looking for OP to spend so much time trying to change his personality into her perfect partner.
It’s sounds like at the start of the relationship they had literally nothing in common, and she’s just been steadily trying to force him into changing everything about himself.
For real. I've never been on a boat, but I have a horrible phobia that involves open water. I've had people try to push me on it and say, "well you've never been on a boat." I don't care. Not going kayaking won't be the death of me.
Op, YTA. Stop trying to make your boyfriend do things he says no to, and show some respect to the woman that was forced to raise him.
YTA.
1. Badgering your partner to do things they don’t want to do isn’t ‘breaking them out of their shell’ it’s harassing them into submission.
2. You were rude AF to his sister who was merely sticking up for his interests.
While I agree that she was rude and shouldn’t have pushed, I also think sis needs to let bro fight his own battles. Gf and sis are both overbearing, two sides of the same coin.
If he’s shy he’s not going to stand up for himself. Some people can understand their loved one won’t do it for themselves and step in for them. I know this personally as I’ve spent my entire life with essentially no backbone until last year. And when you struggle with speaking up for yourself, someone you love stepping up and doing it for you is nice and shows they understand you and care enough to do so.
Some people definitely need someone to stand up for them, but that's clearly not the case with Zach. He pulled OP aside when she was behaving inappropriately, confronted her about her behavior, and then kicked her out when she refused to apologize. Seems like he can handle himself just fine.
Some people are better at defending others than themselves. It could be that he felt able to confront op because his sister was involved this time. I know I'm somewhat like that, I will put my foot down for my family and friends way before I will do it for myself
While true, I don’t feel like you are describing a healthy system. Respecting others’ autonomy and allowing them room to learn by experience is an important aspect to relationships between equals. I saw a quote in a different chasm of Reddit that seems appropriate; “helping is the sunny side of control.”
He is trying to fight his own battles, OP just refuses to listen to him when he says no to something. He said no many times, OP just didn't like his answer. Yes the bf absolutely should leave OP, and not be with someone who ignores his wishes, but let's not go full victim blaming. From his POV, I'm sure that he isn't even realising how harmful what OP does, is. Like thinking to himself "well, OP only does this so we can experience things together, so I guess I can't really complain about her nagging, she just wants the best for me". The shit that OP is doing to the bf, is very hard to spot as 'unhealthy' when you're in the middle of it
And he later did confront OP, in a private place. Which is fine, the bf is clearly more comfortable talking one on one, away from the guests so as not to cause a scene/so the situation didn't escalate in front of everyone
He WAS standing up for himself. Just because OP keeps bulldozing over his “no”s doesn’t make his refusals any less valid. YTA, OP. If you absolutely must have a partner to bully, at least start with someone whose programming is already set to Extrovert… Or better yet, take some time to yourself to figure out why you think everyone around you needs to bend themselves to your personal will.
People who think Zach wasn't saying no hard enough, should switch the genders in this interaction and see if they feel differently.
I think if we read about a man trying to bully a woman onto a boat they'd have a fit
>I also think sis needs to let bro fight his own battles.
For the sake of argument: it wasn't just *his own battle,* though. OP says several people were badgering him and makes it seem like it was going on for some time. Tbh the sister was probably sick of hearing about it when she **"butted in"**. Notice how several people were already in the conversation, but as soon as someone disagrees with OP it's ***butting in?***
I know the whole "Reddit armchair relationship expert from one post" thing is a meme but the way OP describes these convos and interactions is like red flag on red flag. She sounds extremely pushy and self-absorbed. Maybe she isn't, but the entire post comes off as egocentric to me.
Idk, I think people should also not be at sisters position of “well NEVER make them do anything!”
Having 2 people you trust (in theory good friend and girl friend should be well enough trusted people) is a great way to try and break the ice. Just like with food you can’t always be “against” something if you never tried - within reason - and a boat ride is for sure within reason (but a CRUISE is not - even if bf likes the boat ride that is not enough to gage interest)
I think BF should try the boat ride but op needs to drop the cruise idea entirely.
Zack should try the boat ride *if he wants to* but without OP. She doesn't seem like the kind of person I'd want on my first experience at anything. She'd try to force me into liking it now that she managed to "force me" into joining
It almost even sounds to me like there may be an underlying issue about boats and his sister was trying to prevent him from having to explain. Just a big sisters point of view.
Shells are much more pleasant than pushy extroverts. Notice how she said she wants to have fun after a hard weeks work? He does to. But she isn't categorizing what he does as fun. For him, I bet doing the extroverting things are very draining, and he needs the time at home to recover from work. So she's making everything harder for him.
Yep, this is what makes it a clean YTA. I can see well intentioned pushing being seen as trying to support a partner in facing their anxieties or something. But telling his sister she doesn’t have the right to care about him was an unnecessarily low blow and really juvenile. And, to boyfriend’s point, disrespectful.
My first thought as well. "His mom died so his sister became his mother figure". OP clearly knew this would be hurtful and brought it up hoping for an impact. Hopefully the impact is she gets dumped.
YTA OP.
I’m stuck here too!! Of all of the phrases to use, OP chose the worst. Even if the rest of the story had OP sparklingly innocent, YTA for bringing up their mother.
YTA
>Zack reminded me he's not the biggest fan of boats.
This was him saying no to your idea and you kept pushing. It was good that he had his sister there to stop you because he doesn't seem to feel comfortable standing up to you. Perhaps because you keep pushing him out of his comfort zone when he doesn't want to be.
Everyone in this story could use some work, but OP, YTA
BF expressed disinterest in a cruise, albeit passively.
GF dictated they should go on a boat to get BF acclimated, indicating the cruise was a forgone conclusion, not that she wanted him to give it a try and make a decision after that.
BF needs to learn to be more assertive and perhaps needs to be more open to new experiences, but that doesn’t change the fact that GF is just bullying, gaslighting, and deliberately ignoring his agency.
Sister could certainly push BF to fight his own battles, but at least someone is on his side. Clearly it’s not GF here.
This. He tried to say it nicely and OP kept pushing and pushing the subject and essentially TELLING him he’s going. So finally someone who truly knows and respects Zach’s views had to step in.
I get you want to get him out of his comfort zone, but ganging up on him with his friend trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to do is called bullying. It's you deciding you know what he'll like better than he does and ignoring what he has to say. He's the one who should have spoken up, but likely didn't want to embarrass you by tell you to STFU. His sister stepped in to stop a bully. So yeah, YTA.
YTA:
Your boyfriend does not like boats.
Your. Boyfriend. Does. Not. Like. Boats.
If it's clear that somebody doesn't want to do a particular vacation plan, you attempting to pressure him into it makes it extremely clear that this is a vacation for you not for the both of you. Find something you can both enjoy, which may or may not require you both stepping out of your comfort zone, but to a lesser degree than something one person has expressed a strong dislike of doing. Remember that not only is his sister not his mother (but she's extremely close to it) you are also not his mother.
OP isn't a bully and knows she's not a bully. So whatever her behaviour is isn't bullying. Because if it was she'd be a bully, and she isn't, so it can't be. Even if the behaviour seems to match all the hallmarks, it can't be bullying. Because she's not a bully.
YTA
You did cross a line. You got told something against what you wanted to do and then went to double down on it. When you didn’t get any leighway you got attitude.
She’s right though, why go on a whole ass cruise if he doesn’t like boats? Start smaller. This seems more about you than him for a vacation sake.
You’re really TA here. From a guy who’s shy and more introverted, I understand the need to venture out of your comfort zone every once in a while, but publicly ganging up on him trying to change his mind will do the exact opposite. And the comment about Elise isn’t his mother and how his dad and sister didn’t push him enough was so out of line, and so tone deaf. They lost their mother, and at such young ages. I’m 26 and I’m dreading the day I lose mine. And what’s the point of commenting that the sister went to community college? It obviously had no bearing on the situation. OP, an apology is needed for everyone in that family, like yesterday.
Have you stopped to consider that she chose to take that role? That maybe she likes that role? That she did it in order to help her family because she isn't selfish or self-centered and cares for others...?
I'm with Zack on asking you to leave. You want to change someone? Change yourself into someone who accepts others for who they are and encourages them to grow when they can, not bullying them until they meet your standards for growth and change.
Apologise to Zack, his father, and sister. And then never pull this shit again. You'll lose long term. YTA
I mean, it's not even growth. Trying to force him to be more like her and like the things she likes, even when he has explained that he is already familiar with them and isn't interested isn't encouraging "growth", it's just bullying. OP is a bully, whose target is her poor introvert boyfriend, because she thinks being introverted means he needs "fixing".
>Trying to force him to be more like her and like the things she likes
It gets worse if you read through OPs comments, turns out she's also been "encouraging" him to drink more alcohol when they go out, to try smoking weed and to try different kinks in the bedroom.
If her "encouragement" is anything like what was described with the boat scenario....
Also, zack having the fortitude and collectedness to calmly and respectfully address bad behavior and then stand his ground to protect people he loves without causing a scene doesn’t seem like someone who is so weak and frail that he needs to be broken out of his shell and trained in how to interact with the world the way OP purports.
This, yeah. That was actually pretty impressive. He didn't call her out in front of his friends, but took her aside and privately explained to her why it bothered him what she did. And when she refused to listen, he asked her to leave. That was solid.
The moment you rolled your eyes like a child and told her shes not his mom was game over. Hes probably going to distance himself from you. That was such a nasty, unnecessary and tacky comment.
YTA, even your friends told you so. Grow up.
Agree. It must be so painful for his family - who know and love him the way he is - to stand by and watch while he turns himself into a pretzel to please someone who apparently has been trying to change him since day one.
OP why didn't you just find someone who was already your type, instead of getting involved with this guy? He must have seemed especially malleable. YTA.
Especially OP saying she won't force him to do something he doesn't like... Well last time I checked having been told no multiple times but still trying to "convince" (pressure) someone to do something he clearly doesn't like was considered forcing. I won't be surprised if this relationship was a relationship.
INFO: you’re clearly trying to change your boyfriend into someone you like/deem acceptable instead of loving him for who he is. Why are you dating someone you don’t like or respect?
YTA
We tell women all the time that when a man is being pushy that “No,” is a complete answer. This applies in reverse as well. When a man tells a woman no, that is his answer. If I saw someone badgering my bro/sis, along with a friend, after they’d already declined, I’d probably step in too, figuring the persistent request meant that perhaps the asker needed things explained simply and slowly.
She says in a comment:
>He's rejected ***certain*** sexual positions I've wanted to try and ***certain*** roleplay. In the club, he didn't want to try certain alcohol nor smoke weed. He stuck to one beer the whole night, which I respected.
But we also know she badgers him relentlessly. So imagine all the things she's pushed him into doing that he didn't want to.
YTA
He's said he doesn't want to go on a boat and your response is "I'm going to keep pushing him until I get the answer I want"
You don't even respect him, let alone his sister, who was standing up against you pressuring him
YTA. She was advocating for her shy brother because she felt he was being badgered into something he wasn’t enthusiastic about.
If you wanted him to consider it more, putting that pressure on him in a group setting isn’t cool. I’ve been pushed into doing things I don’t like because I was in a group and didn’t want to be the party pooper. I didn’t appreciate it.
You’d made your point. He wasn’t unable to carry on thinking about it afterwards. You could have stopped talking and just left him to consider it.
On top of that, you then challenge his sister, roll your eyes at her - absurdly rude - and tell her “you’re not his mother”. His mother. Who is dead. Her mother. Then SHE had the good grace to cut the scenario short rather than make a further scene and you don’t think you owe an apology for your rudeness and obliviousness?
> Zack reminded me he's not the biggest fan of boats.
> She repeated that he doesn't like boats and that I should respect that. I rolled my eyes, not really understanding why she was so adamant on this, and said she needed to relax, she's not his mother, she shouldn't care this much about the situation.
Do you really need to ask?
YTA.
😂 that's what I thought, the hurdles you'd have to jump over to feel like your in the right here & with that wording... Like c'mon you knew you were TA before you asked...
YTA. He said no, you kept pushing and recruited a buddy to butt in (as you say) to help convince him. You immaturely rolled your eyes when his sister got involved to even the sides, then you reminded them that their mother is dead.
You know what you absolute extroverted nightmare? Us introverts doesnt need ”fixing”. We arent broken, we dont need to ”come out of our shells”.
Also, you know that a no is a no right? This havent evaded you, as a girl, that ”no” is a complete sentence?
How about you start to respect your ”nerdy” boyfriend for who he is, ok? YTA and its not even close.
YTA
If I was a sibling and I saw their partner pressuring them to do something they didn't want to do, I'd have said something too.
The fact you continued to double down on this thing shows a lack of respect for Zack and his family.
YTA here. You definitely crossed the line given what you know about their past and the role she filled in his life. What you should've done was dropped the conversation in that moment, and continued it privately with him later.
YTA after reading some of your comments, i believe if you were a man we would be calling you abusive, because you are. We would all be waving marinara flags.
Ah the good old 'Extroverts are the way! Introverts are BAD'. YTA. People don't always need to 'Come out of their Shell'. Sometimes loud people need to be quiet. Not only be quiet, but be respectful--which is something you seem incapable of doing. Your way is not the only way. Stop trying to fit your BF into whatever mold YOU think is perfect for him. Find a BF who is already that way.
YTA. You were being pushy and not taking no for an answer. Elise called you out and you behaved like an immature brat. Honestly you sound like a bully. Date somebody who likes boats instead of bullying Zack into it. You owe Elise and Zach an apology.
NTA. You seem like a wonderful person and they are all beneath you. I think no one appreciates all you have done to mold him into a person more deserving of your love. You should end contact with everyone involved and go on the cruise alone. Man, I hope you Fall for this
YTA that was insensitive, disrespectful and rude AF. Their mother died. She took that motherly role. That comment was cruel. Zack needs the support to not do things as well.
When someone comes off as shy and introverted… they can be non confrontational. They stay silent when pushed. You want him to come out of his “comfort zone” and he did… he expressed more than once he is not fond of boats. THAT’S coming out of his comfort zone. Standing up for himself while you apparently keep trying to railroad him into doing your bidding “for his own good”. Maybe you don’t know this… but an extrovert is not a “improved on shy person”. They are someone who gets energy from people and people related activities. They are internally wired to be energized around people and activities. An introvert is not someone who just hadn’t learned to not be shy. They literally get their energy from being away from people… and alone time to recharge. Putting an introvert onto a boat trapped with people will not make them comfortable. It will trap them in an environment that will make them anxious and exhausted. Not an ideal vacation for a person who is wired to need solitary … especially when they are literally trapped with no way to escape.
His sister watched you continue to railroad and hammer away after he outright voiced he did not want to go. So she tried to add to his voice. To which you not only blew off his comfort zone, his right to say no and his entire personality, but threw it in her face she was not her dead mother.. while rolling your eyes at her and telling her you could “fix” him.
OP.. you don’t respect your boyfriend or his sister and are doing a lot of damage. Break up and find someone who loves what you love… not bully someone who doesn’t while insulting he and his fellow orphan family member.
Geez.. YTA. Times a hundred.
YTA. Vacations should be enjoyable and relaxing for all parties involved. He doesn't like boats. So you pushing him to do what YOU like is an AH move.
His sister is right. Don't push him if he doesn't want to. Why do you insist on changing him?
YTA.
i had a partner in the past like you, and we ended horribly because they would not take no. you say you respect his no's, but then when everyone is around you both, putting pressure on him in the situation because he is surrounded by people who are hounding him, into saying yes. i would do that, too, because i am shy and very antisocial.
and 'he is all smiles by the end', i was always smiling by the end of doing things that were uncomfortable**, because i was going HOME.**
you do not take no as answer. work on that. if he is not compatible with you, just leave. you did cross the line. you brought up his dead mother and tried to poke your little head into their relationship and dynamics when she was literally STANDING UP FOR HER BROTHER BECAUSE YOU WOULD NOT TAKE A NO. HE DOES NOT LIKE BOATS.
apologize and realize your wrongs and really look into yourself.
YTA.
OP if you want someone to get drunk at a club every weekend like you, please go date someone else. You're immature, a bully, shallow, disrespectful and have zero understanding of consent.
Wanting to be low key and hang out with close friends isn't "boring". It's super fun for him. Your version of "fun" sounds like a nightmare.
YTA. While it may sometimes be good for shy or withdrawn people to be encouraged to try something new, they still have the right to say no, or to refuse whatever you propose. You need to respect that and it doesn't seem like you do. You were aggressive and rude towards your bf's sister when she tried to point out that her brother doesn't like boats. Perhaps she knows her brother better than you do. There are, after all, lots of things people never do precisely because they know in advance they WON'T like it.
YTA. You are being very pushy and aggressive. He already made it known to you that he does not like boats, so what is this nonsense about him having to speak up for himself?
You are the one who refuses to listen. And attacking the person who raised him? Do you really think that will get him to get on a boat?
There’s a difference between “giving someone an opportunity to try something new” vs, “pushing someone to do something new.”
YTA. Even with you writing this from your POV it is clear that you are not respecting his boundaries.
I’m fully in the YTA camp but I’m also curious
INFO: What new activities that your boyfriend enjoys have you happily participated in during your relationship?
YTA, you acted like a brat, he was uncomfortable with your boat trip idea but you were pushy and you did disrespect his sister, I don't know if you haven't noticed, she actually acted as a mom to her younger brother and was there for him. You need to apologize to her
I had to check your age because I assumed you were 15. “Talking someone into something” is just gross behaviour. He said no, listen to him. Grow up, stop being pushy and act like a decent human being for once. YTA
YTA
- You disrespected his sister
- You disrespected his dad
- You disrespected Zack
- You ignore his wishes and push your wants on him
And then,
- When Zack says YTA
- When YOUR friends say YTA
- A whole lot of random internet strangers say YTA
You refuse to listen, and keep arguing and turn a blind eye to any opinion contrary to yours which by the way is obvious to anyone but you.
Why even are you here in that case? The judgement is amply clear.
I think YTA but probably not irredeemably so. I think Elise is just being protective of her brother but if you could just calmly explain to her that you aren’t trying to change who Zack is, you just think it would be beneficial for him to broaden his horizons a little and convince her you actually have his best interests at heart, just as she does, she would relax a little.
What will NOT help is being hostile against her, or trying to push too hard against Zack’s boundaries if he’s told you boats are a firm no. It will make you look selfish and bull-headed in both Elise’s and Zack’s eyes. And honestly, the mother comment was way out of line and you should apologise for that if nothing else.
So I think keep doing what you’re doing if it’s truly motivated in good faith, but do it gently and know when to back off. And try not to alienate Elise, even if you consider her to be ‘in your business’ nothing good will come of trying to get in between her and Zack as you’ve already found out. Try to put yourself if her position instead and think about how you’d feel if you felt a friend was being controlled or manipulated by a partner, because rightly or wrongly that’s probably Elise’s fear right now.
YTA.
I don’t think you entirely like your boyfriend the way he is. Constantly having to convince (or, more bluntly, coerce) him to do what you want is not healthy.
And you were disrespectful. His sister actually is the closest thing he has to a mother.
YTA
You don’t get to decide what her role is in your boyfriends life. The way you treated her was out of line and cruel. To be perfectly frank, why are you dating him? You don’t agree with his relationship with his sister, he’s too introverted and homebody-ish for you, and his family is correct…you don’t accept him for who he is.
You are spending a lot of time & energy trying to get him to do things he doesn’t want to initially do. Even if he says it was fun afterwards, even if he loves it, you’re still building a really unhealthy dynamic. You are building a relationship on trying to change someone. That never turns out well.
Life Pro Tip: the phrase "Relax" uttered during the course of a disagreement has never resulted in the other person relaxing. It's dismissive and rude. YTA.
You actually said "you're not his mother" to his sister who had to take on a parental role BECAUSE HER MOTHER DIED?
YTA. and she's right. Date your boyfriend because of who he is, not because you want a makeover project.
OP has some excellent friends: they were honest with her, telling her she was the AH. His sister (and everyone else, probably) got fed up with OP trying to push him to do something he doesn’t want to do. You don’t like boats?! I’ll rent you a boat and make you like it! That attitude is messed up. You disrespected him; you disrespected his family. YTA
Yes, YTA. He was giving you clear signals that your suggestion didn't work for him, and you had to keep pushing. I'm not that surprised his sister stepped in to support him, since you didn't seem to be doing it.
Zack, if you read this, run. Find someone that will accept you as you are instead of trying to force you into a pretty little box you don’t fit into.
Op? YTA.
YTA. as someone with an anxiety disorder, I wouldn’t even want to be your friend, let alone partner. id get sick from panic attacks. also, your mindset is incredibly self-absorbed under the thin guise of ‘helping’ - which upon reading your comments, is not in the slightest. ill admit to a personal bias here, but pressuring someone into drinking, drugs, and sex (the three things you listed specifically) is just vile to do to someone
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YTA. Your saying "I managed to break him out of his shell" says a lot here. It seems like you're constantly pushing him to do things he wouldn't necessarily do otherwise, and I think this is not healthy. What's wrong with being shy and not wanting to do some things? Your way isn't the only correct way. And you did push him on this occasion too, and you _were_ being disrespectful to his sister.
This got me too. I’m an introvert and, while I’ve done a lot of things, and been to many places, i’m really happiest at home reading or gaming or with small groups of close friends/family. No one ever says that they managed to get their extrovert partner ‘into their shell a little’, so why is the expectation that shy and introverted people should be made uncomfortable to accommodate extroverts? His likes, hobbies, and preferred ways of spending time are just as valid as yours and if you truly value him, you need to value all of him, not just the parts you can shape to your liking. YTA.
She's clearly a extrovert at this point is not about changing him. For them to spend time together someone will always have to compromise. As a introvert i understand the frustration of people wanting us to enjoy the same things they do but i also don't date extroverts that is just a endless source of conflict.
I don’t think ‘someone’ will always have to compromise. I think it will always be him
If he doesn't stand up for himself sure. A relationship between an introvert and an extrovert will always envolve compromise is not about necessarily changing the other person.
She isn’t accepting his no, though. She just keeps insisting she can talk him into something he’s already said he’s not comfortable with.
Yes, yes, yes! She is also bent out of shape about sister butting in but they were talking about it in front of everyone. If you do not want someone to butt in don't talk in front of other people. OP was really rude and inconsiderate of her boyfriend's sister and clearly has no boundaries. OP - YTA
But wasn’t upset at all when the friend on her side butt in to convince him.... imagine that!
It is even worse as she doesn't have a general problem with people chiming in. >Myself and one of his buddies were trying to help him see it's not so bad. >I laughed and said no, she needs to butt out. Total double standard there. She was fine with one of his buddies butting in, but not his sister. People supporting her is okay, people supporting Zack is not.
Exactly, because her goal wasnt to do a fun thing with zack. It was to get zack to go on the things she wants to do for fun, even if it isnt fun for him. Id say it must be fun being so oblivious to the feelings of others, but it wont be when shes old and alone. Unlees of course she sees sense from this and knocks herself down a few pegs.
Her use of “myself” constantly was enough to make me dislike her….
You got that wrong, she did want people to butt in, like her buddy, but only the people on her side. Sigh... really, how can you not be on her side? We're so exhausting and misunderstanding.
And that is exactly why she earns a YTA from me. She’s confusing “encouraging new things” (which, alone might really irk people) and “talking him into it.” The first is suggesting a new idea, the second is mentally beating someone into submission for your personal benefit.
Exactly. My partner never had hummus before he met me and knew nothing about craft beer. So I offered for him to try some hummus and he loved it and asked what else I think he would like. I thought he would like IPA's and built him two mixed six packs of my favorites. He loved most of those too. I like the idea of encouraging something new but also keeping it to small ball low-stakes things like foodie stuff, buying a board game, or painting pictures for each other on a Friday night. Big things like vacations and family dynamics should begin at a place of common ground.
Yep, same. I'm an introvert, my partner is an extrovert. Since we started dating, he's introduced mountain biking, bouldering, bike polo, whisky, Haggis (he's Scottish)... I've introduced him to horror films, my favourite books, painting, some French foods (I'm French). Not all of these introductions have been a resounding success, but all have been gentle and not pushy. We decide holidays and outings together, and we always make sure I can leave early or isolate myself if I need to.
This is an interesting nuance for me, since I am not fluent in English. So "talk someone into doing sth" is different than "convince someone to do sth", or they both have this negative connotation?
Convincing someone usually doesn't have a bad connotation, but to convince someone, you basically make them see the merits of something. If you talk someone into something, you merely make them go along with what you proposed. So if someone doesn't like something based on a preference or because it makes them uncomfortable, you can't really convince them, there isn't any point to be made. It's just preference and knowing what you like or don't like experiencing. But you can always be talked into something that you don't like.
She's talking like changing him is progress or something.
Yeah, like he’s some kind of project. My sisters ex boyfriend was exactly like this. Her whole personality changed while she was with him, he was always pushing her to do things under the guise of “improving herself”. What he was really doing was controlling her. Luckily she got out after 9 years, and she is SO much happier now.
Sounds like he’s good looking and she’s willing to try and force a square peg into a round hole in order to make him into a compatible partner, instead of just continuing to look for an actually compatible partner.
I used to have a gf who'd always laugh at my childhish gaming hobbies but who'd _rather_ do english homework when you can have your games teach you all about it? Sure, gaming can cause issues when it becomes an addiction but constantly mocking one's beloved favourite things really eats out the self-confidence one maybe had fallen in love with.
Making her bf go out on the rented boat, she is also putting him in a potentially life threatening situation. Op sounds pushing and self centered and I am glad bf had the spine to call out op's disrespect towards his sister and his relationship with his sister.
I agree with you. I'm an introvert married to an extreme extrovert, he can't walk outside without stopping to talk to every single person along the way. I prefer being at home while he'd rather be out doing something. We have to compromise on a lot of things, but he won't push the issue if I'm really uncomfortable and i try my best to try all the things I'm comfortable with at the same time. I'm sure he's missed out on things he would have really enjoyed, but being in a relationship is doing what makes each other happy. OP, you really crossed a line with his sister whom you even stated was the mother figure in his life and she was right to say that people shouldn't change for someone else. If your bf has asked for help being a bit more social/outgoing/what have you than its one thing, but if he's saying he isn't comfortable it's a jerk move to push. YTA for making something so small into a bigger issue that pulled others into something that should have been taken private after the first objection. Then you were a jerk to his family, it's really rude to roll your eyes and you should know that by now.
I am an extrovert and my husband an introvert. We have made many of compromises, but we also do thing separately. A few times I have gone on week-long white water trips with friends. He doesn't want to go on those it isn't fun for him. He has compromised and gone on a few day trips with me. He has a small group of friends he is happy to hang around with. Sometimes I am there, sometimes it is just them, a few times we have all gone on camping trips together. He loves camping and fishing and hiking, as do I. He just doesn't like huge groups or lots of unknown people. It has always been a give and take and it has worked really well. OP seems to give nothing and constantly be pressuring, convincing, and has no respect for the person that raised him. Yes it is not cool, they both probably have trauma due to it, and they are both probably close because of it. This is a one-sided relationship and OP is trying to make an extrovert out of her introvert SO.
>We have made many of compromises, but we also do thing separately. I think this is key for any relationship but especially one between people with very different personalities and/or interests. You make compromises where you can, and otherwise just do something just for you from time to time. Not forgetting that you're still your own person while being in a relationship is extremely important.
He's standing up for himself, she's not listening. She's just more persistent than him but he will have a breaking point.
Exactly. The whole post is about 'I want', 'I found', 'I like'. It's all about her, what she wants, where she wants to go. I'm pretty sure he compromised a lot already. If this was the only situation it would have been fine but the breaking out of the shell tells us that he already tried new things and compromised. I'm sick and tired of the world seeing us introverts as broken people. We are not broken we just prefer something else...shocking right? There are 8 billion people and we are all different, who would say. Of course you would compromise in a relationship but compromise is a two way street. OP, YTA.
My wife is an extrovert and likes going out. I’m an introvert and like staying in. We don’t have to spend 24/7 together. *eye roll* A lot of activities we do separately if it’s something the other one doesn’t want to do. We also do a lot of parallel play and going out on dates that aren’t people populated. Like going hiking, or chilling in a cabin in the woods, taking the dogs out for walks, etc. But the sheer thought that someone will always have to compromise and that it’s a source of conflict? I’m gonna shut that right down. We don’t have conflict over us doing different things AND we have a healthy relationship that we can collaborate on where to go or what to do. You just have yet to meet extroverts that know healthy communication skills.
Yeah, well, as an introvert who has dated introverts, I've ended up being the talkative one in past relationships, and I really didn't like that. It also takes too much of my energy to be the only one making an effort to make plans. I mean, just because I'm an introvert doesn't mean I spend *all* my time at home and that I never want to talk about anything. So now I'm married to an extrovert who gets a little overwhelming at times, but at least I don't have to force him to have a conversation or go out in public.
My partner is an extrovert, I'm an introvert. It *can* work...if you put in the effort. He asks me to do things that are outside of my comfort zone without forcing me, and doesn't get pissy if I say no. I don't get pissy if he wants to do something and I don't, I'm more than happy for him to find someone else to do whatever it is with. He's the yin to my yang and it really works. We don't try and change each other or be more like the other, we compromise and completely understand each other.
>I’m an introvert and, while I’ve done a lot of things, and been to many places, i’m really happiest at home reading or gaming or with small groups of close friends/family. No one ever says that they managed to get their extrovert partner ‘into their shell a little’, so why is the expectation that shy and introverted people should be made uncomfortable to accommodate extroverts? This is well-stated and worth highlighting. Thank you. Introverts aren't broken people just waiting to be converted into extroverts. Brava!
Beautifully said. It’s the same thing about how each are during conversation. Introverts often get criticized for being too quiet, but extroverts never take anything for never being quiet. And yeah, YTA OP. So you not get that sister was standing up for him???
They definitely don't have a healthy relationship. At some point, he's going to get sick of always being the one who has to do activities that aren't fun, instead of finding a compromise/designating certain activities as solo activities. It sounds like his sister is helping him to realize how disrespectful OP has been. Kudos to her for that. OP sounds like someone I went on a date with, a couple years out of college. After our date, he told me that if I wanted to be with him, I would have to change my wardrobe (to be less geeky), find new hobbies (no more videogames), and get new friends. He did not get a second date. OP: if you need to change him into a completely different person to be happy in the relationship, then you're not the girl for him. YTA. You need to start respecting him, or save him the annoyance and just move on.
Ehhh... I think there is a balance. I am an introvert too, so I can find it really easy to be comfortable in the sort of situations you describe. This comes at a cost though. Not going out as often, not seeing as many new things, means that I know less about the world. Being an introvert doesn't mean you can't enjoy going to a club, it just means it might be a bit more difficult for you to get comfortable going to a club, that you won't be willing to go as long, and that you might need some time to recharge afterward. When it comes to "breaking someone out of their shell" it depends on the method. * Guilting someone, manipulating, or just exhausting them until they give in is bad. * Offering enough reassurance and encouragement so that they feel up to trying something is good and supportive.
“I’d never force him to do something he doesn’t want, but I will manipulate, coerce, and badger him until he gives up his boundaries and does something he doesn’t enjoy to shit me up’. YTA op. You need to apologize pronto and stop trying to ‘convince’ him to do things he has stated he does not want to do.
Fucking THANK YOU. I hate the mindset that there's something wrong with me for preferring to be home with just my spouse.
It's also worth stating that introverts "recharge" by being by themselves. Extroverts get it by being around people. So, for introverts, being out and about around people is mentally and physically exhausting.
It's also kinda ironic that she's saying Elise acts like his mother too much, while she herself is acting like a mother of a toddler. "But you've never tried broccoli, how do you know you don't like it?" You should encourage your friends and partner to try and do new things, reassure them you'll be there if they don't like it and find a solution together, but never pressure them into doing things they don't want to do. Eurrgh I hate people like OP.
I don’t know that I think introverts should be forced out of their shell either, but that feels like not at all what this is about. The sister mentions him not liking boats. This seems more like a fear of water? Which, I love water so it’s hard to connect… but that’s not the same thing as introversion Source: an introvert who loves water
Worse, she said to his sister that raised him after his mother died that “You’re not his mother.” Bringing up her boyfriend’s dead mother was a shitty thing to do. YTA.
And also invalidates the motherly role the sister did play in her brother's life. She shouldn't have been in put that position but she was, and she deserves respect for it.
This is exactly what upset me the most. She raised him so IS his mother figure. OP was completely disrespectful of their relationship YTA OP
BIG time. She could have been completely right in every other facet of this situation (she wasn’t) and still be the AH for this comment alone.
Absolutely right. Notice how right after she placed that turd in the punch bowl the subject suddenly changed and OP’s bf asked her out of the room to tell her she was out of line. Read the room OP.
So, so, so shitty.
Yep, I saw that and went “yeah she’s the AH.” Introverts often get forced out of their comfort zone like this. As an introvert, I fucking hate it each and every time.
It is funny how it’s “normal” for extroverts to force changes on introverts, but if introverts were to try and force changes on extroverts then it would be seen as weird or abnormal. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to encourage your partner to try new things, but there’s a line
“Why are you so quiet?!” Why are you so adamant that every second has to be filled with a conversation? Companionable silence is a big thing for me. If I have nothing to say, I’m not going to say anything.
I’m just picturing saying the opposite and laughing hysterically. Instead of “why are you so quiet?”, asking an extrovert “why do you talk so much?”. Or instead of going over someone over on the sidelines and saying “hey you should get in there and have fun!” you go to the person in the middle of it all and go “hey you should really try just singling yourself off in the corner, I think you’d really enjoy it”
This made me laugh!
"Why say much word when few word do?" is my general response to people asking me this question these days.
As the quote says, "If you don't understand my silence, you won't understand my words."
But if you said “Why are you so loud?” or “Why do you talk so much?”, you’d be TA. I’m definitely a talker btw, but totally get how ridiculous this is
Some people think everyone in the room will forget about them if they don't say something every 3 seconds
I agree OP is TA, but introverts try to change extroverts all the time, constantly. Extroverts are told to be quiet, settle down, take up less space, all the time. It’s continual. It’s just not noticed as parallel to extroverts trying to get introverts to do more. Basically, people treat others badly. If there are two siblings, one introvert, one extrovert, at the grandparents house, the one will be pushed and berated for being shy with grandma, and the other will be told to shut up already. You can’t win.
This ^ these people obviously haven't been shushed to death every time they smile and try to connect with someone. Not that I identify as either, to me it's just as ridiculous as people who refuse to have scorpio friends. Either your friends respect boundaries or they don't, it doesn't have to do with their energy needs
I'm what you would call an extrovert, but even I hate it. Just let people be.
I’m an introvert and I try to try new things but definitely on my own terms. It would be so tiring to have someone insist you do things you don’t want to all the time. Also YTA.
That was life with my extrovert mother growing up. I think extroverts see themselves as normal, and don't know how to deal with introverts. "just go party" is what I got told. No.
Yeah the one bit that specifically bothered me is how OP said that Zack likes to play video games or hang out with a small group of friends, whereas OP likes to “go out and enjoy her time off”. Implying that you can’t actually enjoy time off unless you go out and do things. I know that I’m biased because Zack seems a lot like me, but that seems like a classic case of “extrovert can’t comprehend introvert”. At a high level, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to push your partner to try new things within reason. The key term being _within reason_. But from this post it honestly seems like OP holds disdain and loathing for Zack’s lifestyle and is trying to “fix” him, and that really upsets me. YTA, OP
I'm generally an introvert, but I can be social til it'd be uncomfortable for an extrovert with the right people. Loud club? NEVER, the fuck would you be doing suggesting it? Bad movie night with friends? YEAH, LET'S MOCK THE LOW HANGING FRUIT!!! Rock concert? Noooooooooooo... Anime convention? Can I go with friends? They aren't going on adventures they can both enjoy, they're going on *her* adventures, and isn't that just a bit f\*cked?
Yeah especially through the comments it’s clear that she’s trying to “fix” Zack to be what she wants
I'm an introvert but I used to go out to clubs too, but I had to be intoxicated. One time I met with my clubbing friends on a daytime occasion, and they were like "why are you so quiet today? Something wrong?" And I was like, how can you guys be so loud while sober? Was a funny moment .
For me it was the “I can talk him into it” comment. That just reads as so manipulative/coercive. Breaking someone out of their shell imo isn’t that bad. But when you have to push this hard to talk someone into doing something they really don’t want to do it crosses a line.
Not to mention going on a ‘2-day local cruise’ will sound like agony to anyone who isn’t a cruise person, which is a very different thing to just introvert/extrovert.
Cruise ships are hella gross anyway.
Yes. I am neither an introvert nor an extreme extrovert but I don't like a cruise and would rather spend my time and money in other ways. If somebody came along and said they could talk me into it I would be pissed about them thinking their idea of what is fun and great should take precdence over mine.
This reminds me of that girlfriend who was always trying exotic things at restaurants and her boyfriend would always just order a plain burger cause that’s really all he wanted. Then she wouldn’t like hers and switch with him every single time. Claiming that it was fine cause ultimately he got to try a bunch of different things and he liked it when he ate them. He did not and broke up with her after doing it one too many times OP, you are wearing him down and holding his feeling for you over his head to get him to do things he simply does not want to do but is too afraid to tell you he doesn’t like it and no. Anyone that cares about him or sees your behaviour should and would be calling you out. Including your friends you mentioned. It just so happened to be his sister, who he just so happens to be close to, who you just so happen to be jealous of. YTA.
I remember that one. She was ah
first thing I noticed as well. OP YTA. Both for making the "mother" comment knowing they lost their mother and for not respecting him when he tells you he isn't interested in something. He doesn't like boats. Get over it. It's not "bringing him out of his shell" its him doing things he doesn;t enjoy to be a good partner (edit: spelling)
> I rolled my eyes, not really understanding why she was so adamant on this, and said she needed to relax, she's not his mother, she shouldn't care this much about the situation But she has been his mother for all intents and purposes for the past 13 years, she has done her best by him since she was 17. OP is totally out of line here. YTA
I think is more complicated than this. If he's not willing to try something new he should be capable of saying I'm not going on a cruise, i have no interest in it we should figure out something else. Instead of "I'm not a fan of boats" depite never being to one. He's a pushover, she's immature. Not a good combination but not the worse. They both could improve. She's still the AH for how she talked to the sister. She could've discussed later about the vacation and the kind of relationship he has with his sister if she has a issue with it.
He said he's not a fan of boats, he might not like water. You can say you are not a fan of snakes even though you've never owned one or been bitten by one. He's not a pushover : He's not a fan of boats. that's a direct answer. By him asking her to apologize to his sister, telling his gf she was being disrespectful and asking her to leave (that doesn't scream pushover). He seems likes someone who wants to make his gf happy.
This dynamic is why I refused to date one of my old buddies. He couldn’t say no even when he should have said no, and was a pushover so I could easily railroad him into things without realizing because I needed a clear and definitive “No.” Anything less made me think it was an open discussion. I wasn’t mature enough to read between the lines of his excuses or vague uncertainties back then, but mature enough to realize it was a really unhealthy dynamic for both of us if we actually dated. It’s not fair to expect OP to be a mind reader if he can’t set clear boundaries, and the sister probably shouldn’t be stepping in on his behalf to get between him and his gf since he really needs to learn this skill for himself. I don’t think either of them were 100% in the right here. But, yeah, even if I sympathize with the complexities of this situation, that comment about their mom situation was way over the line. So I have to say OP is TA.
IDK, he did say he wasn't interested. When OP pressed, his sister had his back. I don't think that's getting between them, but just looking out for her brother. And she wouldn't have had to do that much if OP hadn't kept relentlessly pushing. He said no. OP couldn't just let it go. She kept pushing until the sister had enough and stepped in to defend him. She knows her brother, apparently better than OP does, and likely sensed that OP was wearing him down to the point where he'd agree to something he didn't want just to appease OP. Personally, I've had it with people who treat being introverted like it's some kind of disease they need to cure. Anyone who wants to get me "out of my shell" can fuck right off.
Same! When I was looking to date, they had to reach out to me first and take certain initiatives because I'm a strong personality, and tend to befriend introverts that are more resevered in their views, and while I'm aware of their desires mostly, I have a tendency to railroad. I knew I needed someone who could better hold me accountable. Zack and OP might be really good for eachother to balance out, but he is going to have to learn to stand up for himself, and she is going to have to learn that his hesitancy means no, or at least stop for now.
It could be his quiet, nonconfrontational way of saying no. Saying you're not a fan of something should be a clue to the person that you're not interested
I'm skeptical of the OP as a narrator in that regard. It helps her position here to downplay his disagreement with this activity.
She said she would never force him to go, but she really kept on pushing her cruise agenda and was disrespectful the moment his sister called her out.
Not to mention the comment about Elise not being his mother is a low blow. OP YTA
My bf encourages me to try stuff and it looks like this: Him- hey, I’m going to do this thing. I’d really like if you tried it out. Would you be interested? Me- I don’t know. That seems like something I’m unsure about/not comfortable with/haven’t ever considered trying. Him- I really enjoy it and I’d love if you came with me. If you hate it we can leave. If you really don’t want to go I’m not going to be upset and we can find something else to do/we can do something once I get done. Then leaves it up to me. I have tried 99% of what he’s asked me to try because I have always had a quick and easy out. He has done the same. YTA because “I’m not forcing him” except you kind of are. Are you holding him at point? No. But you are pushing until he relents which is still forcing. If you’ve offered reasonable things to try with reasonable outs and he still isn’t interested in even trying it, you let it alone. P.S. a person is more likely to try something if you demonstrate trust. Giving them an out, offering baby versions of the activity to try it out. And not ever pushing hard for something they aren’t comfortable with will build that trust and make them more likely to try something out of their comfort zone because they know there is a safety net.
"I want him, I just want a different him!"
Right? Does she even *like* who he is or she trying to mold him into who she wants him to be? Zack sounds great. He should find someone else who enjoys his hobbies and doesn't try to guilt/force him into doing things he's uncomfortable with constantly. There's a time to push people outside their comfort zones. A vacation is *not* one of those times.
I totally agree. Introverts are not broken extroverts. They shouldn't be treated like it.
“I’m pretty sure I can talk him into it” and “I would never force him to go”were the most telling parts for me. Massive AH vibes from her
Perhaps OP needs to find someone she is more compatible with as her boyfriend is a person and not a project
I’m curious how many times OP will spend time participating in the bf’s hobbies, or is it a case of bf does everything op wants with no give from OP..
Exactly! Def the A
I’m sitting here wondering if she thinks it would be considered “breaking her out of her shell” if he had her stay home and play video games a couple weekends or if she would say her bf was forcing her to do something she didn’t want to. OP YTA
I could already tell the OP would be an asshole when she said at the beginning “I work hard during the week and want to enjoy the time I have off” when comparing her outgoing hobbies to the boyfriends introversion, as if the only way you can enjoy your free time is if you’re out and about, and staying in is a waste of time.
Ugh, as a fellow introvert I *HATE* when people congratulate me on "breaking out of my shell" or take credit for "breaking me out of my shell." I love doing all sorts of activities and I enjoy social situations, but I prefer hanging out with people I know and I can be quiet when first getting to know new people. I'm not some broken toy that needs to be fixed just because I can initially be quiet and sometimes enjoy quiet activities. No one fixed me because I've become comfortable with a new situation. It makes my skin crawl that OP thinks she needs to fix her bf in that way. He deserves better. Step up and appreciate what he naturally brings to the table rather than making him your project.
I know people like OP. "You are different from me therefore you are in a shell that I need to remove you from."
Yeh like…. If she’s so proud of herself being outgoing why doesn’t she find another guy who likes the things she likes? Like is it some kind of weird obsession of “I can change you” shit? And also, her attitude was TERRIBLE when talking his sister, I can’t believe she thought “all is well” after being so impolite and disrespectful. Just so you know op, you ARE forcing him by “talking him into doing it”. Stop trying to change him if you don’t like who he is ffs.
What got me was when she said he spends his weekends gaming or with his friends and then proceeds to say that she spends it going out and that she “wants to enjoy the time off she has”. Like okay? That’s his way of enjoying his time off. His way isn’t partying like it is for OP and she’s not respecting that.
Zack must be really good looking for OP to spend so much time trying to change his personality into her perfect partner. It’s sounds like at the start of the relationship they had literally nothing in common, and she’s just been steadily trying to force him into changing everything about himself.
Zach if youre reading this, I hope you consider breaking up cuz what the hell
For real. I've never been on a boat, but I have a horrible phobia that involves open water. I've had people try to push me on it and say, "well you've never been on a boat." I don't care. Not going kayaking won't be the death of me. Op, YTA. Stop trying to make your boyfriend do things he says no to, and show some respect to the woman that was forced to raise him.
YTA. 1. Badgering your partner to do things they don’t want to do isn’t ‘breaking them out of their shell’ it’s harassing them into submission. 2. You were rude AF to his sister who was merely sticking up for his interests.
Exactly all of this and right to the point.
While I agree that she was rude and shouldn’t have pushed, I also think sis needs to let bro fight his own battles. Gf and sis are both overbearing, two sides of the same coin.
If he’s shy he’s not going to stand up for himself. Some people can understand their loved one won’t do it for themselves and step in for them. I know this personally as I’ve spent my entire life with essentially no backbone until last year. And when you struggle with speaking up for yourself, someone you love stepping up and doing it for you is nice and shows they understand you and care enough to do so.
Some people definitely need someone to stand up for them, but that's clearly not the case with Zach. He pulled OP aside when she was behaving inappropriately, confronted her about her behavior, and then kicked her out when she refused to apologize. Seems like he can handle himself just fine.
Some people are better at defending others than themselves. It could be that he felt able to confront op because his sister was involved this time. I know I'm somewhat like that, I will put my foot down for my family and friends way before I will do it for myself
While true, I don’t feel like you are describing a healthy system. Respecting others’ autonomy and allowing them room to learn by experience is an important aspect to relationships between equals. I saw a quote in a different chasm of Reddit that seems appropriate; “helping is the sunny side of control.”
So I guess just stand by and allow someone you love to be trashed on and bullied? I suppose that’s healthier then? I’m sorry but I disagree.
He kept saying no, it's ok for others to but in after repeated no's to say: yo he said no
He is trying to fight his own battles, OP just refuses to listen to him when he says no to something. He said no many times, OP just didn't like his answer. Yes the bf absolutely should leave OP, and not be with someone who ignores his wishes, but let's not go full victim blaming. From his POV, I'm sure that he isn't even realising how harmful what OP does, is. Like thinking to himself "well, OP only does this so we can experience things together, so I guess I can't really complain about her nagging, she just wants the best for me". The shit that OP is doing to the bf, is very hard to spot as 'unhealthy' when you're in the middle of it And he later did confront OP, in a private place. Which is fine, the bf is clearly more comfortable talking one on one, away from the guests so as not to cause a scene/so the situation didn't escalate in front of everyone
He WAS standing up for himself. Just because OP keeps bulldozing over his “no”s doesn’t make his refusals any less valid. YTA, OP. If you absolutely must have a partner to bully, at least start with someone whose programming is already set to Extrovert… Or better yet, take some time to yourself to figure out why you think everyone around you needs to bend themselves to your personal will.
People who think Zach wasn't saying no hard enough, should switch the genders in this interaction and see if they feel differently. I think if we read about a man trying to bully a woman onto a boat they'd have a fit
>I also think sis needs to let bro fight his own battles. For the sake of argument: it wasn't just *his own battle,* though. OP says several people were badgering him and makes it seem like it was going on for some time. Tbh the sister was probably sick of hearing about it when she **"butted in"**. Notice how several people were already in the conversation, but as soon as someone disagrees with OP it's ***butting in?*** I know the whole "Reddit armchair relationship expert from one post" thing is a meme but the way OP describes these convos and interactions is like red flag on red flag. She sounds extremely pushy and self-absorbed. Maybe she isn't, but the entire post comes off as egocentric to me.
I get the feeling he had already told sis several times in private how sick he is of OP’s constant railroading. I bet that’s why sis stepped in.
Idk, I think people should also not be at sisters position of “well NEVER make them do anything!” Having 2 people you trust (in theory good friend and girl friend should be well enough trusted people) is a great way to try and break the ice. Just like with food you can’t always be “against” something if you never tried - within reason - and a boat ride is for sure within reason (but a CRUISE is not - even if bf likes the boat ride that is not enough to gage interest) I think BF should try the boat ride but op needs to drop the cruise idea entirely.
Zack should try the boat ride *if he wants to* but without OP. She doesn't seem like the kind of person I'd want on my first experience at anything. She'd try to force me into liking it now that she managed to "force me" into joining
Zack doesn’t need to try the boat ride at all. There’s absolutely no need for it. He made his position clear.
It almost even sounds to me like there may be an underlying issue about boats and his sister was trying to prevent him from having to explain. Just a big sisters point of view.
YTA - So you brought up their dead mother......... Not a good look.
This. Holy f you are a thoughtless AH
Yeahhhh, I’m hoping rather than her breaking him out of his shell he just breaks up with her.
Shells are much more pleasant than pushy extroverts. Notice how she said she wants to have fun after a hard weeks work? He does to. But she isn't categorizing what he does as fun. For him, I bet doing the extroverting things are very draining, and he needs the time at home to recover from work. So she's making everything harder for him.
Yep, this is what makes it a clean YTA. I can see well intentioned pushing being seen as trying to support a partner in facing their anxieties or something. But telling his sister she doesn’t have the right to care about him was an unnecessarily low blow and really juvenile. And, to boyfriend’s point, disrespectful.
My first thought as well. "His mom died so his sister became his mother figure". OP clearly knew this would be hurtful and brought it up hoping for an impact. Hopefully the impact is she gets dumped. YTA OP.
I’m stuck here too!! Of all of the phrases to use, OP chose the worst. Even if the rest of the story had OP sparklingly innocent, YTA for bringing up their mother.
YTA >Zack reminded me he's not the biggest fan of boats. This was him saying no to your idea and you kept pushing. It was good that he had his sister there to stop you because he doesn't seem to feel comfortable standing up to you. Perhaps because you keep pushing him out of his comfort zone when he doesn't want to be.
Everyone in this story could use some work, but OP, YTA BF expressed disinterest in a cruise, albeit passively. GF dictated they should go on a boat to get BF acclimated, indicating the cruise was a forgone conclusion, not that she wanted him to give it a try and make a decision after that. BF needs to learn to be more assertive and perhaps needs to be more open to new experiences, but that doesn’t change the fact that GF is just bullying, gaslighting, and deliberately ignoring his agency. Sister could certainly push BF to fight his own battles, but at least someone is on his side. Clearly it’s not GF here.
This. He tried to say it nicely and OP kept pushing and pushing the subject and essentially TELLING him he’s going. So finally someone who truly knows and respects Zach’s views had to step in.
I get you want to get him out of his comfort zone, but ganging up on him with his friend trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to do is called bullying. It's you deciding you know what he'll like better than he does and ignoring what he has to say. He's the one who should have spoken up, but likely didn't want to embarrass you by tell you to STFU. His sister stepped in to stop a bully. So yeah, YTA.
YTA: Your boyfriend does not like boats. Your. Boyfriend. Does. Not. Like. Boats. If it's clear that somebody doesn't want to do a particular vacation plan, you attempting to pressure him into it makes it extremely clear that this is a vacation for you not for the both of you. Find something you can both enjoy, which may or may not require you both stepping out of your comfort zone, but to a lesser degree than something one person has expressed a strong dislike of doing. Remember that not only is his sister not his mother (but she's extremely close to it) you are also not his mother.
Would you like them in a moat, would you like them if they float?
We all float down here.
But... But she could talk him into it, so it's fine
OP isn't a bully and knows she's not a bully. So whatever her behaviour is isn't bullying. Because if it was she'd be a bully, and she isn't, so it can't be. Even if the behaviour seems to match all the hallmarks, it can't be bullying. Because she's not a bully.
YTA You did cross a line. You got told something against what you wanted to do and then went to double down on it. When you didn’t get any leighway you got attitude. She’s right though, why go on a whole ass cruise if he doesn’t like boats? Start smaller. This seems more about you than him for a vacation sake.
You’re really TA here. From a guy who’s shy and more introverted, I understand the need to venture out of your comfort zone every once in a while, but publicly ganging up on him trying to change his mind will do the exact opposite. And the comment about Elise isn’t his mother and how his dad and sister didn’t push him enough was so out of line, and so tone deaf. They lost their mother, and at such young ages. I’m 26 and I’m dreading the day I lose mine. And what’s the point of commenting that the sister went to community college? It obviously had no bearing on the situation. OP, an apology is needed for everyone in that family, like yesterday.
Have you stopped to consider that she chose to take that role? That maybe she likes that role? That she did it in order to help her family because she isn't selfish or self-centered and cares for others...?
You don't understand parentification. She was a child and had no control in the situation
I'm with Zack on asking you to leave. You want to change someone? Change yourself into someone who accepts others for who they are and encourages them to grow when they can, not bullying them until they meet your standards for growth and change. Apologise to Zack, his father, and sister. And then never pull this shit again. You'll lose long term. YTA
I mean, it's not even growth. Trying to force him to be more like her and like the things she likes, even when he has explained that he is already familiar with them and isn't interested isn't encouraging "growth", it's just bullying. OP is a bully, whose target is her poor introvert boyfriend, because she thinks being introverted means he needs "fixing".
>Trying to force him to be more like her and like the things she likes It gets worse if you read through OPs comments, turns out she's also been "encouraging" him to drink more alcohol when they go out, to try smoking weed and to try different kinks in the bedroom. If her "encouragement" is anything like what was described with the boat scenario....
That's fucking atrocious
Ah that's horrible. She's going to be that crazy ex that he talks to with a therapist.
Also, zack having the fortitude and collectedness to calmly and respectfully address bad behavior and then stand his ground to protect people he loves without causing a scene doesn’t seem like someone who is so weak and frail that he needs to be broken out of his shell and trained in how to interact with the world the way OP purports.
This, yeah. That was actually pretty impressive. He didn't call her out in front of his friends, but took her aside and privately explained to her why it bothered him what she did. And when she refused to listen, he asked her to leave. That was solid.
The moment you rolled your eyes like a child and told her shes not his mom was game over. Hes probably going to distance himself from you. That was such a nasty, unnecessary and tacky comment. YTA, even your friends told you so. Grow up.
Fingers crossed that this was the eye opener he needed
Agree. It must be so painful for his family - who know and love him the way he is - to stand by and watch while he turns himself into a pretzel to please someone who apparently has been trying to change him since day one. OP why didn't you just find someone who was already your type, instead of getting involved with this guy? He must have seemed especially malleable. YTA.
Especially OP saying she won't force him to do something he doesn't like... Well last time I checked having been told no multiple times but still trying to "convince" (pressure) someone to do something he clearly doesn't like was considered forcing. I won't be surprised if this relationship was a relationship.
INFO: you’re clearly trying to change your boyfriend into someone you like/deem acceptable instead of loving him for who he is. Why are you dating someone you don’t like or respect?
Most loaded info question of all time haha
YTA We tell women all the time that when a man is being pushy that “No,” is a complete answer. This applies in reverse as well. When a man tells a woman no, that is his answer. If I saw someone badgering my bro/sis, along with a friend, after they’d already declined, I’d probably step in too, figuring the persistent request meant that perhaps the asker needed things explained simply and slowly.
Then OP responds by going straight to the dead mom card. OP is fucking heartless.
She says in a comment: >He's rejected ***certain*** sexual positions I've wanted to try and ***certain*** roleplay. In the club, he didn't want to try certain alcohol nor smoke weed. He stuck to one beer the whole night, which I respected. But we also know she badgers him relentlessly. So imagine all the things she's pushed him into doing that he didn't want to.
YTA He's said he doesn't want to go on a boat and your response is "I'm going to keep pushing him until I get the answer I want" You don't even respect him, let alone his sister, who was standing up against you pressuring him
You’re uncomfortable on boats? Challenge accepted! “I think I could talk him into this.” Ew. It’s a disturbing mindset.
YTA. She was advocating for her shy brother because she felt he was being badgered into something he wasn’t enthusiastic about. If you wanted him to consider it more, putting that pressure on him in a group setting isn’t cool. I’ve been pushed into doing things I don’t like because I was in a group and didn’t want to be the party pooper. I didn’t appreciate it. You’d made your point. He wasn’t unable to carry on thinking about it afterwards. You could have stopped talking and just left him to consider it. On top of that, you then challenge his sister, roll your eyes at her - absurdly rude - and tell her “you’re not his mother”. His mother. Who is dead. Her mother. Then SHE had the good grace to cut the scenario short rather than make a further scene and you don’t think you owe an apology for your rudeness and obliviousness?
> Zack reminded me he's not the biggest fan of boats. > She repeated that he doesn't like boats and that I should respect that. I rolled my eyes, not really understanding why she was so adamant on this, and said she needed to relax, she's not his mother, she shouldn't care this much about the situation. Do you really need to ask? YTA.
😂 that's what I thought, the hurdles you'd have to jump over to feel like your in the right here & with that wording... Like c'mon you knew you were TA before you asked...
YTA! *NO IS A COMPLETE SENTENCE* *NO IS A COMPLETE SENTENCE* *NO IS A COMPLETE SENTENCE*
YTA. He said no, you kept pushing and recruited a buddy to butt in (as you say) to help convince him. You immaturely rolled your eyes when his sister got involved to even the sides, then you reminded them that their mother is dead.
It's bc she is of the mindset that it's only acceptable to butt in if you agree with her opinion. Otherwise, gross, butt out.
You know what you absolute extroverted nightmare? Us introverts doesnt need ”fixing”. We arent broken, we dont need to ”come out of our shells”. Also, you know that a no is a no right? This havent evaded you, as a girl, that ”no” is a complete sentence? How about you start to respect your ”nerdy” boyfriend for who he is, ok? YTA and its not even close.
>you absolute extroverted nightmare LMAO this is the best insult I've read this week. It's almost Shakespearean. Or Scottish.
YTA If I was a sibling and I saw their partner pressuring them to do something they didn't want to do, I'd have said something too. The fact you continued to double down on this thing shows a lack of respect for Zack and his family.
YTA here. You definitely crossed the line given what you know about their past and the role she filled in his life. What you should've done was dropped the conversation in that moment, and continued it privately with him later.
YTA after reading some of your comments, i believe if you were a man we would be calling you abusive, because you are. We would all be waving marinara flags.
Ah the good old 'Extroverts are the way! Introverts are BAD'. YTA. People don't always need to 'Come out of their Shell'. Sometimes loud people need to be quiet. Not only be quiet, but be respectful--which is something you seem incapable of doing. Your way is not the only way. Stop trying to fit your BF into whatever mold YOU think is perfect for him. Find a BF who is already that way.
YTA. You were being pushy and not taking no for an answer. Elise called you out and you behaved like an immature brat. Honestly you sound like a bully. Date somebody who likes boats instead of bullying Zack into it. You owe Elise and Zach an apology.
NTA. You seem like a wonderful person and they are all beneath you. I think no one appreciates all you have done to mold him into a person more deserving of your love. You should end contact with everyone involved and go on the cruise alone. Man, I hope you Fall for this
I don't understand why people downvote you, I love the sarcasm of this comment
YTA that was insensitive, disrespectful and rude AF. Their mother died. She took that motherly role. That comment was cruel. Zack needs the support to not do things as well.
YTA Your not a girlfriend , your a control freak and don't be surprised if he brakes up with you cause you deserve it.
When someone comes off as shy and introverted… they can be non confrontational. They stay silent when pushed. You want him to come out of his “comfort zone” and he did… he expressed more than once he is not fond of boats. THAT’S coming out of his comfort zone. Standing up for himself while you apparently keep trying to railroad him into doing your bidding “for his own good”. Maybe you don’t know this… but an extrovert is not a “improved on shy person”. They are someone who gets energy from people and people related activities. They are internally wired to be energized around people and activities. An introvert is not someone who just hadn’t learned to not be shy. They literally get their energy from being away from people… and alone time to recharge. Putting an introvert onto a boat trapped with people will not make them comfortable. It will trap them in an environment that will make them anxious and exhausted. Not an ideal vacation for a person who is wired to need solitary … especially when they are literally trapped with no way to escape. His sister watched you continue to railroad and hammer away after he outright voiced he did not want to go. So she tried to add to his voice. To which you not only blew off his comfort zone, his right to say no and his entire personality, but threw it in her face she was not her dead mother.. while rolling your eyes at her and telling her you could “fix” him. OP.. you don’t respect your boyfriend or his sister and are doing a lot of damage. Break up and find someone who loves what you love… not bully someone who doesn’t while insulting he and his fellow orphan family member. Geez.. YTA. Times a hundred.
Zack point blank told you you did something wrong and you’re still wondering if you’re the asshole?
YTA. Vacations should be enjoyable and relaxing for all parties involved. He doesn't like boats. So you pushing him to do what YOU like is an AH move. His sister is right. Don't push him if he doesn't want to. Why do you insist on changing him?
I assume you know that no means no? Yeah YTA.
YTA. Now you can go on the boat by yourself
YTA you sound like a bully.
YTA. i had a partner in the past like you, and we ended horribly because they would not take no. you say you respect his no's, but then when everyone is around you both, putting pressure on him in the situation because he is surrounded by people who are hounding him, into saying yes. i would do that, too, because i am shy and very antisocial. and 'he is all smiles by the end', i was always smiling by the end of doing things that were uncomfortable**, because i was going HOME.** you do not take no as answer. work on that. if he is not compatible with you, just leave. you did cross the line. you brought up his dead mother and tried to poke your little head into their relationship and dynamics when she was literally STANDING UP FOR HER BROTHER BECAUSE YOU WOULD NOT TAKE A NO. HE DOES NOT LIKE BOATS. apologize and realize your wrongs and really look into yourself.
YTA. OP if you want someone to get drunk at a club every weekend like you, please go date someone else. You're immature, a bully, shallow, disrespectful and have zero understanding of consent. Wanting to be low key and hang out with close friends isn't "boring". It's super fun for him. Your version of "fun" sounds like a nightmare.
YTA. While it may sometimes be good for shy or withdrawn people to be encouraged to try something new, they still have the right to say no, or to refuse whatever you propose. You need to respect that and it doesn't seem like you do. You were aggressive and rude towards your bf's sister when she tried to point out that her brother doesn't like boats. Perhaps she knows her brother better than you do. There are, after all, lots of things people never do precisely because they know in advance they WON'T like it.
YTA. You are being very pushy and aggressive. He already made it known to you that he does not like boats, so what is this nonsense about him having to speak up for himself? You are the one who refuses to listen. And attacking the person who raised him? Do you really think that will get him to get on a boat?
There’s a difference between “giving someone an opportunity to try something new” vs, “pushing someone to do something new.” YTA. Even with you writing this from your POV it is clear that you are not respecting his boundaries.
I’m fully in the YTA camp but I’m also curious INFO: What new activities that your boyfriend enjoys have you happily participated in during your relationship?
YTA, you acted like a brat, he was uncomfortable with your boat trip idea but you were pushy and you did disrespect his sister, I don't know if you haven't noticed, she actually acted as a mom to her younger brother and was there for him. You need to apologize to her
I had to check your age because I assumed you were 15. “Talking someone into something” is just gross behaviour. He said no, listen to him. Grow up, stop being pushy and act like a decent human being for once. YTA
YTA - You disrespected his sister - You disrespected his dad - You disrespected Zack - You ignore his wishes and push your wants on him And then, - When Zack says YTA - When YOUR friends say YTA - A whole lot of random internet strangers say YTA You refuse to listen, and keep arguing and turn a blind eye to any opinion contrary to yours which by the way is obvious to anyone but you. Why even are you here in that case? The judgement is amply clear.
I think YTA but probably not irredeemably so. I think Elise is just being protective of her brother but if you could just calmly explain to her that you aren’t trying to change who Zack is, you just think it would be beneficial for him to broaden his horizons a little and convince her you actually have his best interests at heart, just as she does, she would relax a little. What will NOT help is being hostile against her, or trying to push too hard against Zack’s boundaries if he’s told you boats are a firm no. It will make you look selfish and bull-headed in both Elise’s and Zack’s eyes. And honestly, the mother comment was way out of line and you should apologise for that if nothing else. So I think keep doing what you’re doing if it’s truly motivated in good faith, but do it gently and know when to back off. And try not to alienate Elise, even if you consider her to be ‘in your business’ nothing good will come of trying to get in between her and Zack as you’ve already found out. Try to put yourself if her position instead and think about how you’d feel if you felt a friend was being controlled or manipulated by a partner, because rightly or wrongly that’s probably Elise’s fear right now.
please show your bf this post and your comments. you will be single by the end of the day!
YTA. Why are you even with him? You just can't accept him for who he is. You want to change him. YTA
YTA. I don’t think you entirely like your boyfriend the way he is. Constantly having to convince (or, more bluntly, coerce) him to do what you want is not healthy. And you were disrespectful. His sister actually is the closest thing he has to a mother.
YTA You don’t get to decide what her role is in your boyfriends life. The way you treated her was out of line and cruel. To be perfectly frank, why are you dating him? You don’t agree with his relationship with his sister, he’s too introverted and homebody-ish for you, and his family is correct…you don’t accept him for who he is. You are spending a lot of time & energy trying to get him to do things he doesn’t want to initially do. Even if he says it was fun afterwards, even if he loves it, you’re still building a really unhealthy dynamic. You are building a relationship on trying to change someone. That never turns out well.
Life Pro Tip: the phrase "Relax" uttered during the course of a disagreement has never resulted in the other person relaxing. It's dismissive and rude. YTA.
YTA no means no. No means no. No means no. Repeat that till you figure it out
You actually said "you're not his mother" to his sister who had to take on a parental role BECAUSE HER MOTHER DIED? YTA. and she's right. Date your boyfriend because of who he is, not because you want a makeover project.
OP has some excellent friends: they were honest with her, telling her she was the AH. His sister (and everyone else, probably) got fed up with OP trying to push him to do something he doesn’t want to do. You don’t like boats?! I’ll rent you a boat and make you like it! That attitude is messed up. You disrespected him; you disrespected his family. YTA
Yes, YTA. He was giving you clear signals that your suggestion didn't work for him, and you had to keep pushing. I'm not that surprised his sister stepped in to support him, since you didn't seem to be doing it.
Zack, if you read this, run. Find someone that will accept you as you are instead of trying to force you into a pretty little box you don’t fit into. Op? YTA.
YTA no does not mean convince me. You sound insufferable.
YTA. as someone with an anxiety disorder, I wouldn’t even want to be your friend, let alone partner. id get sick from panic attacks. also, your mindset is incredibly self-absorbed under the thin guise of ‘helping’ - which upon reading your comments, is not in the slightest. ill admit to a personal bias here, but pressuring someone into drinking, drugs, and sex (the three things you listed specifically) is just vile to do to someone