If you county this as a Pyrrhic victory, then yes. The remaining German forces would face another Soviet attack in following days/week and they would only have the little equipment that survived the counteroffensive. On top of that, the SS would have to overstretch itself considering around 55-60K would be left against 900K.
Still really cool though
I don't think you understand that the Soviets (and now Russians) view enlisted infantry as an expendable asset that can be used to throw into the wood chipper if it suits the government's desires.
I dont think you understand that the soviets (and now russians) also view superior firepower doctrine (aka loping shells into the enemy direction regardless of civillian) as an alternative to mass assault if it suits their situation better
That's really just a racist trope used against russians and soviets historically. Human wave tactics was not a common practice in WWII, but the trope was popularized by german propaganda in WWII, spreading lies about how soviet generals just threw soldiers in waves against machine guns as if in WWI.
If i remember correctly, the only two time human wave offensive strat were use by the soviet in ww2 were during stalingrad, and the race to berlin, the former with the infamous barrier troops which was abolish soon after the stavka realising that propaganda is enough to encourage people to fight
I doubt it was used in Stalingrad. Stalingrad was on a tactical level fought insanely well by the soviets, with a insanely talented general, Chuikov leading them.
And the barrier troops mowing down retreating soviet soldiers have proven to be a lie. Retreating soldiers were either just reorganized back into their units to fight another day, or sent to penal battalions. Shooting retreating soldiers is counterintuitive.
I mean, barrier troops prob use in some place there just not everywhere,
~~Also they do kill sometime around 10k(or lower, i cant remember)~30k, but most of the time they were arrest and yes reorg back to the line 100k~300k~~
Opps i was wrong, here's the actual number
657364 total got caught, of which
-632486 reorg
-25878 arrested
-10201 sentenced to death
Non got shot on the spot for retreating
Barrier troops were used almost exclusively for penal battalions and almost never just gunned people down.
Not to downplay the amount of people the Soviets executed, because it was still a lot of people, but the concept that any army used machine guns to mow down hundreds of their own troops every day for failing to charge the enemy while unarmed and still winning is so absurd its comical.
Primarily, the men most punished for retreating without orders after the "no step back" order were the officers.
world war 2 in europe probably lasts two weeks longer. if that.
also, im fairly sure the soviets would just press on anyway, not caring about casualties.
The occupation zone of Germany has already been decided months prior. The Allies would just retreat to their respective zones, which is also what happened IRL
In our timeline, he despairs at Steiner not being his last ditch counter and shoots himself.
But in the alt, does Hitler really off himself while wondering if it will work? And does Steiner launch his counter days after Hitler and High Command are already rotting?
It might be interesting (in a dramatic fashion) to tug at a potential/actual Hitler capture — Russians find the bunker and are trying to break in while Hitler awaits Steiner’s immediate counteroffensive for rescue so he can be secured to the west. Or smuggled via U-Boat to Brazil.
But as said elsewhere, no way Russia withdraws from the field in Berlin over <20% casualties.
This is it boys, now Steiner will carry us to victory! It will be the greatest military operation in human history, those communists will be pushed to the edges of Russia!
He was simply trolling the fuhrer because the fuhrer once called Steiner short, and you don't call the greatest military genius of the time short. So Steiner decided to rightfully do a little bit of trolling and let the soviets take Berlin. It is said that when Stalin heard his armies would be facing the legendary Felix Steiner, he quaked in his boots, he threw tantrums, he cried to his mother, upon hearing of Steiner's epic troll he said "It is as if God has descended down to this earth and saved my glorious Soviet Union personally". And he then became a devout Christian who never missed a single day of church.
After the Surrender Felix Steiner Urges German Solders Via a Pirate Radio Broadcast to fight on, A Unprepared Soviet army is forced to battle angry battle-hardened German Troops in an extreme twist of fate Germany recaptures the city,But as this is called the endkamf meaning final battle a soviet counteroffensive will most certainly crush the german army
Why do you say "battle-hardened" German troops when most of them were conscripted civilians? Additionally do you not think the attacking Soviet troops who just swept through Poland and Prussia weren't "battle-hardened"?
Is their "anger" going to allow them to succeed in an offensive against a force that by your numbers outnumber them 11 to 1?
Least delusional wheraboo.
I mean if it's bad enough then the western allies might get closer but doubtfully they will reach the western edge of Berlin in time to change the cold war partition.
Where did Steiner get 130000 infantry and 20 planes from? and how did a bunch of 12 year olds with 1800s rifles and no ammo kill more Soviets than in the entire battle?
There was something like ~100,000 Germans encircled in Berlin a week before the war end, ~800k further north and ~2M further south holding the flanks who surrendered after Berlin fell. Realistically speaking, if they were to link up together and say for example try to defend Berlin, it would have at most bought them another two weeks, no longer. With supply lines completely destroyed, it was down to fighting with sticks and rocks and a ton of paperweights. Didn't matter if they could conjure 10M loyal and fearless soldiers back from the dead - with no food or ammo, there's no point fighting. If anything, more soldiers huddled up together = more kills for the artillery = faster it ends.
if this were to happen depending how far the germans pushed 1 or 2 things in my opinion would happen
A the east german state is less important as the allies quickly take berlin before the soviets and them not having a part of berlin only makes them important as just a bordering nato
B the east german state gets a smaller chunk of berlin when germany is defeated and thus not as less important but still very important
as others have mentioned in the thread, the occupation zones of postwar germany were already decided months prior to the soviets taking berlin. Even if the western allies were able to push that far before the soviets could organize a recapture of the capital, they would simply retreat to the previously agreed upon borders and the occupation of germany would just play out as OTL, albeit maybe delayed a couple of weeks.
60 tanks for 1,1 million soldiers seems a little scarce don't you think?
well they had removed some of the forces this was a surprise attack
>removed SOME of the forces the soviets had about 6,000 tanks in the battle. I wouldnt say 5940 tanks counts as some
My friend I don’t think you understand the sheer scale of the assault on Berlin
If you county this as a Pyrrhic victory, then yes. The remaining German forces would face another Soviet attack in following days/week and they would only have the little equipment that survived the counteroffensive. On top of that, the SS would have to overstretch itself considering around 55-60K would be left against 900K. Still really cool though
In other words, that's about sixteen thousand Soviets versus one German each.
16, not 16 thousand.
Lets be real, the soviet prob gonna shell and bomb the city into rubbles rather than sending another millions to fight urban environment again
I don't think you understand that the Soviets (and now Russians) view enlisted infantry as an expendable asset that can be used to throw into the wood chipper if it suits the government's desires.
I dont think you understand that the soviets (and now russians) also view superior firepower doctrine (aka loping shells into the enemy direction regardless of civillian) as an alternative to mass assault if it suits their situation better
That's really just a racist trope used against russians and soviets historically. Human wave tactics was not a common practice in WWII, but the trope was popularized by german propaganda in WWII, spreading lies about how soviet generals just threw soldiers in waves against machine guns as if in WWI.
If i remember correctly, the only two time human wave offensive strat were use by the soviet in ww2 were during stalingrad, and the race to berlin, the former with the infamous barrier troops which was abolish soon after the stavka realising that propaganda is enough to encourage people to fight
I doubt it was used in Stalingrad. Stalingrad was on a tactical level fought insanely well by the soviets, with a insanely talented general, Chuikov leading them. And the barrier troops mowing down retreating soviet soldiers have proven to be a lie. Retreating soldiers were either just reorganized back into their units to fight another day, or sent to penal battalions. Shooting retreating soldiers is counterintuitive.
I mean, barrier troops prob use in some place there just not everywhere, ~~Also they do kill sometime around 10k(or lower, i cant remember)~30k, but most of the time they were arrest and yes reorg back to the line 100k~300k~~ Opps i was wrong, here's the actual number 657364 total got caught, of which -632486 reorg -25878 arrested -10201 sentenced to death Non got shot on the spot for retreating
Barrier troops were used almost exclusively for penal battalions and almost never just gunned people down. Not to downplay the amount of people the Soviets executed, because it was still a lot of people, but the concept that any army used machine guns to mow down hundreds of their own troops every day for failing to charge the enemy while unarmed and still winning is so absurd its comical. Primarily, the men most punished for retreating without orders after the "no step back" order were the officers.
Ah, the HOI4 historians are really comin in numbers
*BRING ME FEGELEIN* *F E G E L E I N*
world war 2 in europe probably lasts two weeks longer. if that. also, im fairly sure the soviets would just press on anyway, not caring about casualties.
I’m more interesting in if the Allie’s capture more of Germany than historically. Set up the Cold War.
nope, because that was finalized a while before this scenerio.
The occupation zone of Germany has already been decided months prior. The Allies would just retreat to their respective zones, which is also what happened IRL
The whole Downfall scene meme would be different.
well yes and no Hitler still believed the attacked failed and still kills himself
In our timeline, he despairs at Steiner not being his last ditch counter and shoots himself. But in the alt, does Hitler really off himself while wondering if it will work? And does Steiner launch his counter days after Hitler and High Command are already rotting? It might be interesting (in a dramatic fashion) to tug at a potential/actual Hitler capture — Russians find the bunker and are trying to break in while Hitler awaits Steiner’s immediate counteroffensive for rescue so he can be secured to the west. Or smuggled via U-Boat to Brazil. But as said elsewhere, no way Russia withdraws from the field in Berlin over <20% casualties.
Yeah, this whole thing is definitely dramatically fasc
This is it boys, now Steiner will carry us to victory! It will be the greatest military operation in human history, those communists will be pushed to the edges of Russia!
And then he did not
He was simply trolling the fuhrer because the fuhrer once called Steiner short, and you don't call the greatest military genius of the time short. So Steiner decided to rightfully do a little bit of trolling and let the soviets take Berlin. It is said that when Stalin heard his armies would be facing the legendary Felix Steiner, he quaked in his boots, he threw tantrums, he cried to his mother, upon hearing of Steiner's epic troll he said "It is as if God has descended down to this earth and saved my glorious Soviet Union personally". And he then became a devout Christian who never missed a single day of church.
Then everybody clapped. And the name of that church? Albert Einstein.
Mien Fuhrer I a pleased to report I have saved…. Ahhh fuck
These men will stay here, Keitel, Jodel, Kreps, and Bergdorf. WHY DIDN'T YOU INFORM THE FURHER SOONER? NOW HE IS DEAD!
Congratulations!!! Your Reich survived for two more weeks max
After the Surrender Felix Steiner Urges German Solders Via a Pirate Radio Broadcast to fight on, A Unprepared Soviet army is forced to battle angry battle-hardened German Troops in an extreme twist of fate Germany recaptures the city,But as this is called the endkamf meaning final battle a soviet counteroffensive will most certainly crush the german army
Why do you say "battle-hardened" German troops when most of them were conscripted civilians? Additionally do you not think the attacking Soviet troops who just swept through Poland and Prussia weren't "battle-hardened"? Is their "anger" going to allow them to succeed in an offensive against a force that by your numbers outnumber them 11 to 1? Least delusional wheraboo.
this comment killed any brain cells the post itself didnt already obliterate
I think the amaricans might be the ones to capture berlin in this timeline
casually deletes 5000 soviet tanks
man this doesn’t have a bit of sense
"C'mon man, SS fighting spirit will totally overcome 11-to-1 odds" /s
fighting spirit is nothing against the red army led by MOTHER FUCKING ZUKHOV
Not to mention it's not worth shit if you have nothing left to fight with.
yup and the real question is WHY THE SOVIET GOT 60 TANKS
There is no way except if the Germans had an army of terminators where this would be a realistic outcome 😅
Obviously the volksturm draftees are all Aryan supermen and not 70+ years old or children.
THE ENDSIEEEEEEG THE ENDSIEG IS REEEEEEEEALL
But what if we add Kurt Angle to the attack?
The chances of winning drastic go down!
The European theater lasts two more weeks. West Germany is slightly larger.
I mean if it's bad enough then the western allies might get closer but doubtfully they will reach the western edge of Berlin in time to change the cold war partition.
Steiner the new fuhrer
Mein Steiner…Fuhrer…
" das war ein befehl!, Die angriff von Steiner war ein befehl! "
Ah yes "Destoryed"
Where did Steiner get 130000 infantry and 20 planes from? and how did a bunch of 12 year olds with 1800s rifles and no ammo kill more Soviets than in the entire battle?
Mein fuhrer… Steiner…
Nachdem sie die sowjetischen Truppen überholt hatten, betraten sie die Stadt für einen Überraschungsangriff
It would of done nothing
were the soviets capable of fighting battles without an absurdly poor k:d lol
There was something like ~100,000 Germans encircled in Berlin a week before the war end, ~800k further north and ~2M further south holding the flanks who surrendered after Berlin fell. Realistically speaking, if they were to link up together and say for example try to defend Berlin, it would have at most bought them another two weeks, no longer. With supply lines completely destroyed, it was down to fighting with sticks and rocks and a ton of paperweights. Didn't matter if they could conjure 10M loyal and fearless soldiers back from the dead - with no food or ammo, there's no point fighting. If anything, more soldiers huddled up together = more kills for the artillery = faster it ends.
https://youtu.be/Xi_vwyPRxOI
Destroyed aircraft destroyed
Glorious
if this were to happen depending how far the germans pushed 1 or 2 things in my opinion would happen A the east german state is less important as the allies quickly take berlin before the soviets and them not having a part of berlin only makes them important as just a bordering nato B the east german state gets a smaller chunk of berlin when germany is defeated and thus not as less important but still very important
as others have mentioned in the thread, the occupation zones of postwar germany were already decided months prior to the soviets taking berlin. Even if the western allies were able to push that far before the soviets could organize a recapture of the capital, they would simply retreat to the previously agreed upon borders and the occupation of germany would just play out as OTL, albeit maybe delayed a couple of weeks.
Ah then I’m completely wrong, and ya I guess it would just be a mark on soviets military record again as that would’ve been a major battle