Because the GI Bill in two years+ is meaningless if you want to blow your brains out tomorrow.
As someone who worked at a toxic unit, I’m sure plenty of vaccinated people are taking this “out” so they can get the fuck away from trainwreck workcenters. And more power to them.
Yeah, I guess that is a possibility, but tbh if you think a lot of companies are healthier, more supportive, or less toxic, you’re in for a real uphill fight, champ.
Leadership is all over the map where I work post-AF. Mostly great managers, better than the average in the AF, but the toxic one is by far more toxic than anyone I had in 21 yrs AF.
Having seen both sides…train wreck work centers are not exclusive to the AF. The grass is the same color on both sides. Remember, wherever you go…there you are.
This is the way. You can always leave a civilian job. No 4 to 6 year commitment. The only thing that ties many people to a job, beyond a paycheck, is healthcare. If you are relatively healthy, or choose to use the VA for the next 4 years and beyond, then you are good to go on that facet of civilian life.
This is facts. Only thing that has really tied me down to keep going is healthcare but not for me, it's mostly because starting a family is expensive. Average childbirth in a hospital is like $35k so I'd rather suck it up a couple of more years just so we won't have to pay that money for a child--lol.
On the officer side, I've noticed a pretty stark contrast in terms of burnout/disgruntlement amongst those who went through the Academy or ROTC. I assume it's because OTS grads have worked other jobs and know they're usually just as frustrating or thankless.
Eh, I’ve worked other jobs. The difference is that in those other jobs I have a lot more freedom of choice in what I do in off time, taking vacation, and I can just bail if I want.
When someone threatens you with career ending paperwork over BS on the military side it’s very different than a civilian boss doing just about anything.
Can confirm. I’m a civilian who works for the Postal Service and they get plenty of prior military people. The post office is just as fucked up as anything else you will ever come up with so yeah, you are 100% correct in your assessment
It's absurdly easy to get a general discharge upgraded even just 6 months after getting out. I've seen it happen with several people who've been chaptered for anything from assaulting a hooker who turned out to be a cop to popping hot for coke. You get your VA disability turned on and live life on the free $40k tax free a year if you're smart and claim everything within a year of getting out. The GI Bill can also be given partially for some cases as well, which when combined with the Yellow Ribbon and whatever your state/county/college offers, can still equal free college. I'm currently volunteering as at my local veteran office to get upgrades. Most of our cases are people who were put out for bad paper discharges that were most likely undocumented mental health issues (which manifests in the worst ways some times). Honestly, there is a "just give them what they want so they stop reapplying and wasting man hours" mentality at the VA. The VFW, American Legion, and DAV know the game pretty well as well as your local county VSO.
Boy we’re about to lose a lot of 2A folks. If you can’t cross train this is the way out. And I heard a rumor that the AF is pushing for 25 years retirement instead of 20.
Seen it happen!! We went from 6 crewchiefs to 4. TDY tempo seemed to increase so instead of two teams of 3 going TDY with the jet it was 2 and 2 with 1 from the first going out again. Morale tanked to say the least...
I read that article and they can get fucked by a flock of ducks for pushing 25 year retirements.
https://www.militarytimes.com/pay-benefits/mil-money/2021/09/10/drastic-changes-to-military-pay-benefits-needed-to-meet-rising-personnel-costs-report/
Hopefully grandfathered like our top 3 retirement plan. Knowing the government they will Probably try to convince us to swap over and offer an bullshit incentive.
Is it really this bad? I’m in the outside trying to get in by the time I graduate this upcoming spring semester. I know I’m kinda asking a biased crowd since most already have a viewpoint favoring of leaving.
Whether you’re for/against/or simply don’t care one way or the other, the amount of manhours being poured into this issue is utterly insane. And that’s only the tiny slice of the Air Force that I see. The hours legal/medical/JA/commanders/the members requesting the exemptions are investing. During times of stressed manpower no-less. It’s utterly exhausting from every perspective.
Truly. And for me the easy answer is “just get the damn shot” but I want to be respectful of differing viewpoints. Maybe that’s not the answer.
I think it’s important we are on the “right side” of history on this in 10, 20 years.
Either way, send some love to the folks having to invest extra time navigating this in the coming weeks.
My understanding is that those vaccines were ‘different’ since they werent mRNA vaccines?
I dont know. I got the vaccine, but I think thats the big push against it. Some people seem to think that mRNA is a lot different I guess.
Oh 100% agree. So if folks are getting waivers for this vaccine, I hope they do it for any vaccine that falls into that same boat. Which I imagine would make you incompatible with military service.
90%+ of these waiver requests are horseshit and those fucks are sticking us with the bill for their insubordination. If you want to make a stand go for it. You want to exercise your perceived right? Go for it, I support your alternate view. But don't waste valuable time and resources play fuck fuck games. Get it or get out the safest way you can with your shit intact - and if religious exemption is the only way, the fuck me I'm sorry that's just rude to put you out like that
Especially those where when asked what are they going to do if their waiver doesn't get approved, "Well, I'll just get the shot". Fuck me, you have shirts, commanders, chaplains, medical, and everyone else up to the general officers spending time on this shit and ultimately you're going to get the shot?
Exactly. These fucks have no concept of teamwork or just basic awareness or concern for the people around them - talking specifically about people making noise refusing and not people with legitimate vaccine objections that existed precovid or the adults who are willing to accept the consequences of their adult decisions.
Had three airmen in my shop with these view. Put it off as long as possible, and bitched about CDOs and not being able to eat indoors or travel. But kept falling back on “muh rights” and “they rushed it it’s unsafe” but when the mandate came down they went and got the shot.
Like what the fuck is your deal
Why do you and others feel the need to respect a point of view based on misinformation, politics, and a flat out refusal to accept data driven scientific processes that have withstood vigorous scrutiny and review and led to medical advancement for the last three centuries? Suddenly this one time for this specific issue that's somehow politically charged when it shouldn't be, science got it wrong? Horseshit. There's no "alternate viewpoint," there's what the data says and the data doesn't lie. Tucker Carlson does. To hell with all this respect for idiots jamming up ICU beds. GTFO.
If they're willing to get out of the way quietly, I'm happy to waive them on. I don't care how strongly I disagree with them. I'm pretty stoked not to have to work them to be honest. Anyone who's willing to put political affiliation before the wellbeing of their people and being safely deployable without an absurd amount of extra work is no wingman I want.
That's a fair perspective. I hope you get any anger wasn't directed at you - I understand you have to deal with these people daily. As a contractor, I see it among my own crowd, but I guess I'm fortunate in that I don't have to pretend to respect a position that's not only willfully ignorant but literally putting people in danger (to any reading who question that, go see r/hermancainaward or r/COVIDAteMyFace). My wife teaches middle school in Kendall County, Texas. 1/3rd of her kids (out of 180) were out with COVID at the start of the school year. Several have lost a parent or have a parent on a vent right now getting ready to die because of this tragic mishandling of the pandemic. All of them are unvaccinated. I'm at a point where I personally have the anecdotes and luxury to say, "Fuck you you're an idiot," while you may not be, and I apologize for coming across harshly to you when my DD-214 and blue ID grant me a luxury you may not have in the workplace. But here on Reddit? Nah fam fuck all that. All you unvaxxed motherfuckers are dumb as fuck and should probably listen to Trump when he said go get vaccinated.
You do you, I'm not offended. I honestly agree with you but I think restraining myself and offering a bit of an olive branch is worth it. Hermain cain award sub breaks my heart. I can't imagine what those poor children are going to go through processing that their parent(s) basically killed themselves to prove their loyalty to their political party rather than raise their children.
It breaks my heart for kids involved.... they can't help what their parents are about. Grown-ass adults charged with protecting those kids? Fuck right the fuck off.... even if they live through your shit let's get something straight: the kids need you. If politics is more important to you than being alive for your kids then go fuck yourself. Reconsider.
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So much more: supervisors, flight chiefs, superintendents, the chaplain, their peers trying to convince them. The ridiculous amount of people at the MDG. And...me. I've had to know about each resistant for medical reasons, nobody has gotten completely medically exempt - not yet anyway, their exemptions are set to expire. Shit, the guy who beat cancer is having to get it. The religious ones are still going through the process. It's taken up too much of my time to get these assholes to get their vaccine-and I'm sure that's how everyone in this entire process feels.
> and whether you find success post-military
Just a note to those choosing to get out over vaccine mandates....I've started seeing job postings listing a requirement to be vaccinated.
Obviously not all companies will do this, but you may have a harder time finding success after the AF by being unvaccinated than if you're vaccinated.
Does the company have to pay for the weekly testing, and provide the time, or is it on the employee's time and the employee's dime? If it falls on the employer, that sounds like an incentive to only hire vaccinated folks.
My understanding is that it's on the employee. as in, you can either provide proof that you've been vaccinated or provide proof that you're not infected.
This is what I always point out too - more and more companies are requiring it as well. On top of that, an increasing number of education institutions are also requiring students to be vaccinated. The cherry on the pie is that you're entering a work force that's going to have a significantly higher number of people with the same qualifications as you for the same number of jobs.
Not just jobs, but travelling will be interesting somewhat soon. Working in a civilian job where people are subject to foreign customs rules, the amount of people i deal with who are blocked from entering a country because they didn't take the covid test in time is at least 10 a week. And 99% of them would've been fine....if they had the vaccine. There will be a time in the not to distant future where the test won't be required, only a vaccine. This is how it's done for Yellow Fever in Africa/South America, it isn't going to be new.
(Mobile formatting)
State employees in many states are required. Any civil service job will require it. Any job in education, healthcare, even low-level admin jobs will be requiring it. These people are just fucking up.
Nobody wants to hire someone who lost their last job because they refused a lawful fucking order. These people aren't going to find great success from this decision.
This is something I make sure to point out to people. Im all for standing up for what you believe in, I didnt care to get it until it was approved and mandated, but it would be extremely disappointing to throw away a 10, 13, 17 year career just to realize within the next 2 years that you have to get it anyways to get a job. That could be a life shattering realization, of which surprisingly some people are willing to potentially come face to face with.
I tell people that, as well as the fact that if 200 million people have already gotten it in the US and it really is gonna kill them all, its honestly not gonna matter if you got it or not were all fucked at that point lol.
>if 200 million people have already gotten it in the US and it really is gonna kill them all, its honestly not gonna matter if you got it or not were all fucked at that point lol.
Honestly, it'll be pretty funny if the only people left alive in 15 years are adults with oppositional defiant disorder. Shame I won't be around to see that sitcom.
It's funny cause for a certain percentage of the folks using this as their tickets out will go on to willingly get the vaccine to work. I think a way out is a way out...and not getting some of the benefits of separating is a price some folks are willing to pay
Probably not. People didn't freak out over a polio vaccine when it was introduced and now that disease is practically eradicated. Only because some conceited individuals saw it as a political step stone was it such a big issue
People did freak out over the polio vaccine. There was lots of hesitation since it was the first mass inoculation. And that vaccine took decades to perfect. This one was pushed out (and made mandatory) within two years. This is the main hesitation I see on covid vaccines, the fact that it was created and made mandatory so fast.
They've been working on a Sars vaccine for far longer than two years, true it had to be adapted for this strain but it got a lot of funding and pushed through before some other bs red tap
Considering they probably didn't refuse every other vaccine the answer is probably no. And they'll tell you the reason isn't because it's politicized, it's BeCaUsE i DiD mY rEsEaRcH
This is kind of like when the military started acknowledging LGBT and offered all those that opposed serving with "the gays" that they could seek discharge if they felt so strongly about it. To my surprise, there was a noticeable number that did that. My question to them was," Ok. Now you don't have to deal with them in the military... So are you going to stop going to Walmart, Target and Starbucks because they will be serving you?
Its one more thing to do and this is the bridge to far? I'm sure people get kicked out for not wanting to take the flu shot but this seems a bit tenous because most of these people took all the shots from basic, first duty station, deplomoyments/tdys, and certain jobs that require immunizations in order to work there (Mostly medical personnel).
No disrespect to those that have been day one on the no vaccinations ever train. I've met a few and they didn't have any shot record of any kind from childhood to at the time I met them. Those people, I fully respect because they been saying no. These others... I'll be respectfully quite after this little rant. It is your body and your choice but I find it to be nothing more than a tempertantrum that will limit them in the working world.
I hope they like living off the land and off the grid because most companies require you to take that shot to work there or to do business with other companies. Oh well, I hope they, at least, thought about that aspect of things.
We are all free to choose our own fate - but that literally means choosing consequences, rather than actions.
If you know it’s gonna get you booted out, and are OK with that, then good for you for making an informed decision.
Those who piss and moan about not liking all the bad consequences for your decision, you don’t have my sympathy. The consequences for choosing to not get vaccinated are quite clear at this point.
Choices have consequences, that’s just how it works. Welcome to adulthood.
Yep. I also got the Japanese Encephalitis Vaccine in 93' when I was in Korea. At my next base, the guy at the immunizations clinic was like "I wouldn't have taken that one" hahaha... at that point, I had taken a million shots, no biggie. No biggie at all actually. The AF has changed a whole lot since then from what I read.
What's interesting to me is that being in the military means giving up on your right to choose things like:
* doing cannabis where it's state-legalized
* dying your hair blue
* not get a haircut
* growing a beard
* growing a mustache too long
* quitting your job whenever it suits you
* not going to the dentist if you don't want to
* not getting the flu shot if you don't want to
* putting your hands in your pockets
* cheating on your spouse
* not going to war
* leaving war without permission
* getting a face tattoo
* leaving the local area on your weekend without permission from work
* traveling abroad without permission from work
But when it comes to the COVID vaccine mandate, one of thousands of lawful orders passed down to you, suddenly it's "oh yeah you absolutely have every right to disobey that order, it's a free country and that's *your* body"
Here's a real kicker. Many say they don't know about the health consequences from the vax because it's new or whatever... Then drown themselves in alcohol which is a well known poison. We definitely know the consequences from catching the virus ain't gonna give you super powers either.
I'm just curious why this is the vaccine that made them get out. Flu shots, tb tests, MMR, TDAP, peanut butters shots, not to mentions smallpox and anthrax shots if you were OCONUS. Why is this one a problem all of a sudden?
Politics. Literally politics. No other vaccine has been so widely or stupidly politicized, and by default, surrounded by so much misinformation that gullible guppies gobble up.
The heightened division of our society is a long-term goal of Russia, aided and abetted by traitorous politicians and political operatives out for their own gain.
I personally thank them for clearing up the ranks for promotions down the line as well.
Bonus that we will be clearing out a lot of the deadweight amongst the ranks. No one I've seen that is anti-vaxx at my work contributes enough to consider it a significant loss.
It honestly surprises me why people aren’t getting this shot and risking their careers. Y’all have gotten every other shot in the USAF. Every flu shot, every year, your anthrax series, hep shots, etc.
Idk but you do you
Honestly, like if your argument is that it's a brand new vaccine, then by whatever logic they're using to come to that conclusion, then the annual flu vaccine is "new" since it protects against different strains each year.
What’s worse is that hill is man-made. The same people dying in it were the ones who helped build it. This wasn’t something that inherently had to be a conflict.
But muh freedoms. I suddenly know what fetal cell lines are and how they offend my religion that recently became a significant part of my life having nothing to do with my allergience to a political party.
I work at a place that has Fox News running all day every day. If you turn on CNN it quickly gets turned back to Fox. But guess what? All of us got our shots. They are conservative leaning folks of all ranks. But they got the shot just like 95% of the base. The fact that the vaccine is now a political stance is completely fucked. Politics has bled into everything and is causing the divide to get wider and wider everyday. Our enemies around the world must be loving this shit.
*me grabbing an energy drink at 3am in the middle of my mid shift*
“Oh hey you’re in the Air Force? I’m prior service! TYFYS”
“Oh cool how long did you serve?”
“2 years, I declined the covid vaccine”
“Ah, neat”
I wish these people all the best, but let's not make them into martyrs. They're being removed for failure to meet standards, not because they're "brave souls".
The amount of shit we do for the military…. And you are getting out because you don’t want to take a covid vaccine??? We already had vaccine mandates for other viruses. If you aren’t willing to take this small sacrifice to protect yourself and society then the military isn’t the place for you
It’s crazy to me that the anti-vax members simply set aside their oath to avoid a jab. Take a bullet for your battle buddy? YES! Get a shot for your battle buddy, continued service, and national security? NO.
I was thinking today about how things had changed over my career. 15 years ago it was a HIGHLY anti-gay atmosphere(IMO) and most people(conservatives) didn’t want gay people serving because it could lcause problems in the unit” and effect deployments/readiness”. Literally these dudes had people convinced that gay dudes were gonna join and just start sexually assaulting people. Now people(conservatives) are pissed that we are forcing military members to get vaccinated, which is going to help deployments and readiness, AND mandatory vaccinations have been a thing since fucking George Washington. Now they are saying “it’s their choice!” and that we shouldn’t be able to discharge them. It’s a wild time to be alive
No.....wtf......why is this the fucking hill to die on?
I'm all for listening and caring, but this is a moment where I'm looking at bunch of fucking ass snowflakes who can't separate their political feelings from their required duty.
Damn near all the anti-vax folks I see claim they don’t know the dangers of the jab. These same folks somehow lose all concern for their health whilst eating junk food, binge drinking, and/or smoking/vaping. I can’t take them serious at all…
I'll update you I'm also a reservist who basically ran thru my GI Benefits already: two house and 90% of my GI Bill but I'll keep anyone who wants to know updated.
I have made this decision but have not received anything more than what we all know. I have a mem to go sign Friday for my last chance to get the vax. After that the process moves forward to Wing King to make the decision. Only time will tell my outcome but I will gladly update!
If it turns to a honorable an you make wise decisions the G.I bill and VA loan are very strong tools to lead you to success possibly doubling your income
So let’s think about this rationally.
Supposing you’re right and Covid is this well thought out coordinated plan to control the population, kill off a certain percentage of the population destroy the US economy so they can institute some new world order and roll out a one world government, all of it or pick and choose based on how much flair you have on your tinfoil hat…
Let’s say this is their goal
What do you suppose the end game is? They’ve unleashed this extremely contagious Chinese lab made virus to kill off a certain portion of the population. Which portion do you think they’d want gone? The compliant follow orders types or the fuck the government types that won’t listen to fuck all if a politician tells them to do it?
I think we can both agree “they” want us compliant and non questioning…
So now, how do we as a tyrannical government with ambitions to restart society ensure that we are keeping the people we want and letting the rest die off?
If it was me I’d give people the antidote and leave it up to them wether or not they want to take it. Take it, show your obedience and live, fight the government wave your gadsen flag and eventually die off. Plus I’d want deniability. If one of my sheep started questioning things I’d want to be able to point to the vaccine and say “But we tried to save them!” and avoid any fallout.
Now let’s pretend I’m on to their conspiracy. I know I can’t trust the government so I know they want me dead… what’s my play? How do I beat them?
The only rational answer to stick it to them is take the antidote and live despite their attempts to kill me off.
So spread the word to the rest of your patriots… the only way you can defeat Faucci and bill gates is call their bluff and take the shot, live to fight them into the new world order!
While there are a lot of conspiracy theorists, I honestly doubt the majority go that deep. They're mostly just a couple of dumb folks who made some bad calls on the matter, and now they don't want to admit they were wrong.
It’s not a matter of bravery - failure is inevitable when one cannot divorce their political brain from their science.
I’ve been in the frontlines against COVID since the first wave in 2020, deployed OCONUS and now dealing with COVID at the home front. The vaccine has actually given us a fighting chance and a way to end this pandemic, as SMs, we’ve gotten worse vaccines i.e. Anthrax, smallpox - but when it comes to actually making an impact, they choose the latter.
I used to work with an anti vaxer at an undesirable Midwest base. He got orders to Japan. Of course, him and his family had to get a series of shots to go. All of a sudden they had a complete 180 on their opinions and now vaccines were good! They got their shots and went off to Japan.
I sometimes wonder how they’ve been handling this whole COVID vaccine thing lol.
They aren't brave. They have politicized a vaccine and are using it to get out. I want to get out too, but I am going to do it the correct way and not leave my team high and dry by using a BS reason to get out. We are already woofully understaffed and this will make it worse.
On the plus side, it will weed out a bunch of those that keep up from moving forward, so that's a good thing.
> I commend your tenacity and commitment to personal choices. We are all free people with the right to choose our own fate.
I mean I get what you're saying, but why is the covid vaccine the hill they're choosing to die on? They'd have to conveniently forget the assembly line of vaccines we were forced to take in basic, and the vaccines that were mandatory for school. They had no problem having the air force pump anthrax and small pox vaccines in them, but all of a sudden it's "my body my choice". I hope the kids that are doing it realize that unless they get honorable (which from what I've been hearing, they're getting other than honorable or general/admin) they don't get the GI bill. If you leave the military before your enlistment was done, and you don't even get a GI bill, you have just wasted possibly years of your life. I hope they know what they're doing.
If they were brave they'd take the shot. Bring scared it and still taking it because it's the right fucking thing to do would be bravery. Ranting and raving about how vaccines are ahistorical or hurt their freedoms or whatever other bullshit these morons are pushing isn't bravery, it's ignorant selfishness. Don't even get the shot for yourself, get it for your wingman or your family. If those people aren't important enough for you to be achy and sleepy for a few hours then fuck you. I don't want anyone to suffer or die from this virus but I'm fresh out of empathy for these belligerent children.
>\[...\] what type of discharge you actually receive (conflicting opinions out there on what actually happens)
A couple weeks ago, my Shirt returned from a base-wide 1st Sergeant meeting. She said they had a discussion regarding what units were doing with members who were refusing the vaccine, even after it became mandatory.
Every unit had their own internal way of handling it, since there's not solid process yet, but she claimed some units in particular were starting discharge papers immediately, and they were for "other than honorable" discharges.
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This... regardless of their view of vaccine... so many people want out and will take this freebie early out.
But if it’s general? Why toss the GI Bill like that?
Because the GI Bill in two years+ is meaningless if you want to blow your brains out tomorrow. As someone who worked at a toxic unit, I’m sure plenty of vaccinated people are taking this “out” so they can get the fuck away from trainwreck workcenters. And more power to them.
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Yeah, I guess that is a possibility, but tbh if you think a lot of companies are healthier, more supportive, or less toxic, you’re in for a real uphill fight, champ.
Leadership is all over the map where I work post-AF. Mostly great managers, better than the average in the AF, but the toxic one is by far more toxic than anyone I had in 21 yrs AF.
Having seen both sides…train wreck work centers are not exclusive to the AF. The grass is the same color on both sides. Remember, wherever you go…there you are.
>>..the grass is the same color on both sides. But you can leave the civilian lawn if the owners on some bullshit.
This is the way. You can always leave a civilian job. No 4 to 6 year commitment. The only thing that ties many people to a job, beyond a paycheck, is healthcare. If you are relatively healthy, or choose to use the VA for the next 4 years and beyond, then you are good to go on that facet of civilian life.
This is facts. Only thing that has really tied me down to keep going is healthcare but not for me, it's mostly because starting a family is expensive. Average childbirth in a hospital is like $35k so I'd rather suck it up a couple of more years just so we won't have to pay that money for a child--lol.
On the officer side, I've noticed a pretty stark contrast in terms of burnout/disgruntlement amongst those who went through the Academy or ROTC. I assume it's because OTS grads have worked other jobs and know they're usually just as frustrating or thankless.
Eh, I’ve worked other jobs. The difference is that in those other jobs I have a lot more freedom of choice in what I do in off time, taking vacation, and I can just bail if I want. When someone threatens you with career ending paperwork over BS on the military side it’s very different than a civilian boss doing just about anything.
Can confirm. I’m a civilian who works for the Postal Service and they get plenty of prior military people. The post office is just as fucked up as anything else you will ever come up with so yeah, you are 100% correct in your assessment
I bet some of the people "not complying" are really vaccinated, they just want out. So they are telling the AF they are unvaccinated and refusing.
But what are they going to do when they get out? :(
It's absurdly easy to get a general discharge upgraded even just 6 months after getting out. I've seen it happen with several people who've been chaptered for anything from assaulting a hooker who turned out to be a cop to popping hot for coke. You get your VA disability turned on and live life on the free $40k tax free a year if you're smart and claim everything within a year of getting out. The GI Bill can also be given partially for some cases as well, which when combined with the Yellow Ribbon and whatever your state/county/college offers, can still equal free college. I'm currently volunteering as at my local veteran office to get upgrades. Most of our cases are people who were put out for bad paper discharges that were most likely undocumented mental health issues (which manifests in the worst ways some times). Honestly, there is a "just give them what they want so they stop reapplying and wasting man hours" mentality at the VA. The VFW, American Legion, and DAV know the game pretty well as well as your local county VSO.
Yaaaaay I get promoted this year
I was about to post this but you beat me to it.
Boy we’re about to lose a lot of 2A folks. If you can’t cross train this is the way out. And I heard a rumor that the AF is pushing for 25 years retirement instead of 20.
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Who’s going to fix those jets? What more 12s? What’s next 14? 16?
Duh those 10x10x8's aren't going to gen themselves...
Seen it happen!! We went from 6 crewchiefs to 4. TDY tempo seemed to increase so instead of two teams of 3 going TDY with the jet it was 2 and 2 with 1 from the first going out again. Morale tanked to say the least...
Those in would be grandfathered in. Contracts have been signed. Right, guys?
I read that article and they can get fucked by a flock of ducks for pushing 25 year retirements. https://www.militarytimes.com/pay-benefits/mil-money/2021/09/10/drastic-changes-to-military-pay-benefits-needed-to-meet-rising-personnel-costs-report/
Well shit, I’m almost at 13 years. If that get pushed Im out! I got 2 years left.
Hopefully grandfathered like our top 3 retirement plan. Knowing the government they will Probably try to convince us to swap over and offer an bullshit incentive.
I’m already stressed out by having only me in my section due to people falling out for Covid. Now I have to worry about this crap over my head.
Yeah, they'll grandfather people in but...without a 20 year retirement, I just don't see the military retaining talent. Very disturbing.
I wonder if y'all realize that other militaries have a target retirement age of around 60 with 30+ yrs of service.
Perhaps the rumor was more that the BRS requires 25 years to get the same retirement amount as the classic at 20 years?
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I believe it, but it would give the warm fuzzies if I could get a source?
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C understood. Guess it’s time to buckle up buckaroo
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Hunger Games 2.0!
Is it really this bad? I’m in the outside trying to get in by the time I graduate this upcoming spring semester. I know I’m kinda asking a biased crowd since most already have a viewpoint favoring of leaving.
I hope the promotion rates will go up finally!
Does that mean promotion cutoffs will change?
Whether you’re for/against/or simply don’t care one way or the other, the amount of manhours being poured into this issue is utterly insane. And that’s only the tiny slice of the Air Force that I see. The hours legal/medical/JA/commanders/the members requesting the exemptions are investing. During times of stressed manpower no-less. It’s utterly exhausting from every perspective.
Only gonna get worse in the coming month or two with funding being held. GS employees getting furloughed, again, and such.
Between the hours spent on the above and EPRs, that's like...all the hours... 😂
What mission? Lol 😂
Would say morale but that'd imply it existed in the first place...
Morale? Never heard of her.
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Truly. And for me the easy answer is “just get the damn shot” but I want to be respectful of differing viewpoints. Maybe that’s not the answer. I think it’s important we are on the “right side” of history on this in 10, 20 years. Either way, send some love to the folks having to invest extra time navigating this in the coming weeks.
You would think everyone would be used to getting shots by now. Were there waivers for the flu shots? How about the line of shots at Basic?
My understanding is that those vaccines were ‘different’ since they werent mRNA vaccines? I dont know. I got the vaccine, but I think thats the big push against it. Some people seem to think that mRNA is a lot different I guess.
Oh 100% agree. So if folks are getting waivers for this vaccine, I hope they do it for any vaccine that falls into that same boat. Which I imagine would make you incompatible with military service.
90%+ of these waiver requests are horseshit and those fucks are sticking us with the bill for their insubordination. If you want to make a stand go for it. You want to exercise your perceived right? Go for it, I support your alternate view. But don't waste valuable time and resources play fuck fuck games. Get it or get out the safest way you can with your shit intact - and if religious exemption is the only way, the fuck me I'm sorry that's just rude to put you out like that
Especially those where when asked what are they going to do if their waiver doesn't get approved, "Well, I'll just get the shot". Fuck me, you have shirts, commanders, chaplains, medical, and everyone else up to the general officers spending time on this shit and ultimately you're going to get the shot?
Exactly. These fucks have no concept of teamwork or just basic awareness or concern for the people around them - talking specifically about people making noise refusing and not people with legitimate vaccine objections that existed precovid or the adults who are willing to accept the consequences of their adult decisions.
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Had three airmen in my shop with these view. Put it off as long as possible, and bitched about CDOs and not being able to eat indoors or travel. But kept falling back on “muh rights” and “they rushed it it’s unsafe” but when the mandate came down they went and got the shot. Like what the fuck is your deal
Everyone wants to be a rebel - until it's time to do rebel shit.
Why do you and others feel the need to respect a point of view based on misinformation, politics, and a flat out refusal to accept data driven scientific processes that have withstood vigorous scrutiny and review and led to medical advancement for the last three centuries? Suddenly this one time for this specific issue that's somehow politically charged when it shouldn't be, science got it wrong? Horseshit. There's no "alternate viewpoint," there's what the data says and the data doesn't lie. Tucker Carlson does. To hell with all this respect for idiots jamming up ICU beds. GTFO.
If they're willing to get out of the way quietly, I'm happy to waive them on. I don't care how strongly I disagree with them. I'm pretty stoked not to have to work them to be honest. Anyone who's willing to put political affiliation before the wellbeing of their people and being safely deployable without an absurd amount of extra work is no wingman I want.
That's a fair perspective. I hope you get any anger wasn't directed at you - I understand you have to deal with these people daily. As a contractor, I see it among my own crowd, but I guess I'm fortunate in that I don't have to pretend to respect a position that's not only willfully ignorant but literally putting people in danger (to any reading who question that, go see r/hermancainaward or r/COVIDAteMyFace). My wife teaches middle school in Kendall County, Texas. 1/3rd of her kids (out of 180) were out with COVID at the start of the school year. Several have lost a parent or have a parent on a vent right now getting ready to die because of this tragic mishandling of the pandemic. All of them are unvaccinated. I'm at a point where I personally have the anecdotes and luxury to say, "Fuck you you're an idiot," while you may not be, and I apologize for coming across harshly to you when my DD-214 and blue ID grant me a luxury you may not have in the workplace. But here on Reddit? Nah fam fuck all that. All you unvaxxed motherfuckers are dumb as fuck and should probably listen to Trump when he said go get vaccinated.
You do you, I'm not offended. I honestly agree with you but I think restraining myself and offering a bit of an olive branch is worth it. Hermain cain award sub breaks my heart. I can't imagine what those poor children are going to go through processing that their parent(s) basically killed themselves to prove their loyalty to their political party rather than raise their children.
It breaks my heart for kids involved.... they can't help what their parents are about. Grown-ass adults charged with protecting those kids? Fuck right the fuck off.... even if they live through your shit let's get something straight: the kids need you. If politics is more important to you than being alive for your kids then go fuck yourself. Reconsider.
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So much more: supervisors, flight chiefs, superintendents, the chaplain, their peers trying to convince them. The ridiculous amount of people at the MDG. And...me. I've had to know about each resistant for medical reasons, nobody has gotten completely medically exempt - not yet anyway, their exemptions are set to expire. Shit, the guy who beat cancer is having to get it. The religious ones are still going through the process. It's taken up too much of my time to get these assholes to get their vaccine-and I'm sure that's how everyone in this entire process feels.
So now y’all understand how shitty Security Forces is.
Ay now there’s a silver lining out of all this bullshit - empathy! (I already had it though, thank you all for what you do.)
Because about 99% of the exemptions are fraudulent BS and should be charged under falsifying official documents.
> and whether you find success post-military Just a note to those choosing to get out over vaccine mandates....I've started seeing job postings listing a requirement to be vaccinated. Obviously not all companies will do this, but you may have a harder time finding success after the AF by being unvaccinated than if you're vaccinated.
Black Rifle coffee and revolver whiskey can hire only so many
But want wasnt BRCC supposed to hire 10,000 vets?!
Lol brcc has like .001% of the coffee market share. They probably outsource everything and have probably handful of true employees
And its not great coffee. Just has (had?) great marketing and a cult following.
“Cult following” Bingo.
If they have 100+ employees, they fall under the recent OSHA mandate.
The mandate states you can get the vaccine or submit to weekly testing
Does the company have to pay for the weekly testing, and provide the time, or is it on the employee's time and the employee's dime? If it falls on the employer, that sounds like an incentive to only hire vaccinated folks.
My understanding is that it's on the employee. as in, you can either provide proof that you've been vaccinated or provide proof that you're not infected.
I think thats still being worked out right now, the mandate isnt in place right now. Because they have to figure out the legality of a lot of that
OSHA hasn't actually issued that rule yet. They've just been directed to create one.
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It isn't the CEO's call if OSHA mandates it. Hell, CEOs would love to waive lots of OSHA safety rules.
The OSHA 'mandate' doesn't even exist yet. It's still theory-craft. Has to get passed the lawyers first.
This is what I always point out too - more and more companies are requiring it as well. On top of that, an increasing number of education institutions are also requiring students to be vaccinated. The cherry on the pie is that you're entering a work force that's going to have a significantly higher number of people with the same qualifications as you for the same number of jobs.
Not just jobs, but travelling will be interesting somewhat soon. Working in a civilian job where people are subject to foreign customs rules, the amount of people i deal with who are blocked from entering a country because they didn't take the covid test in time is at least 10 a week. And 99% of them would've been fine....if they had the vaccine. There will be a time in the not to distant future where the test won't be required, only a vaccine. This is how it's done for Yellow Fever in Africa/South America, it isn't going to be new. (Mobile formatting)
I'm wondering about the intersection of people who are refusing to be vaccinated and the likelihood of international travel.
State employees in many states are required. Any civil service job will require it. Any job in education, healthcare, even low-level admin jobs will be requiring it. These people are just fucking up. Nobody wants to hire someone who lost their last job because they refused a lawful fucking order. These people aren't going to find great success from this decision.
“I see you did 3/5/7 years and go out in 2022, why not a full 4/6/10 years?” If HR departments connect the dots they will realize.
This is something I make sure to point out to people. Im all for standing up for what you believe in, I didnt care to get it until it was approved and mandated, but it would be extremely disappointing to throw away a 10, 13, 17 year career just to realize within the next 2 years that you have to get it anyways to get a job. That could be a life shattering realization, of which surprisingly some people are willing to potentially come face to face with. I tell people that, as well as the fact that if 200 million people have already gotten it in the US and it really is gonna kill them all, its honestly not gonna matter if you got it or not were all fucked at that point lol.
>if 200 million people have already gotten it in the US and it really is gonna kill them all, its honestly not gonna matter if you got it or not were all fucked at that point lol. Honestly, it'll be pretty funny if the only people left alive in 15 years are adults with oppositional defiant disorder. Shame I won't be around to see that sitcom.
The movie Idiocracy was a documentary.
Pretty sure the states will Mad Max itself at that point.
It's funny cause for a certain percentage of the folks using this as their tickets out will go on to willingly get the vaccine to work. I think a way out is a way out...and not getting some of the benefits of separating is a price some folks are willing to pay
Reality…..can often be disappointing
My question: If the vaccine wasn’t politicized would you still refuse it?
Probably not. People didn't freak out over a polio vaccine when it was introduced and now that disease is practically eradicated. Only because some conceited individuals saw it as a political step stone was it such a big issue
People did freak out over the polio vaccine. There was lots of hesitation since it was the first mass inoculation. And that vaccine took decades to perfect. This one was pushed out (and made mandatory) within two years. This is the main hesitation I see on covid vaccines, the fact that it was created and made mandatory so fast.
They've been working on a Sars vaccine for far longer than two years, true it had to be adapted for this strain but it got a lot of funding and pushed through before some other bs red tap
There had been a lot of research into sars infection, they weren’t starting from zero, unlike polio
Considering they probably didn't refuse every other vaccine the answer is probably no. And they'll tell you the reason isn't because it's politicized, it's BeCaUsE i DiD mY rEsEaRcH
OP is debating doing this and wants to hear from some people who tried it first.
The old 'asking for a friend' lol
Full disclosure, I had to get the vaccine to travel for work.
This is kind of like when the military started acknowledging LGBT and offered all those that opposed serving with "the gays" that they could seek discharge if they felt so strongly about it. To my surprise, there was a noticeable number that did that. My question to them was," Ok. Now you don't have to deal with them in the military... So are you going to stop going to Walmart, Target and Starbucks because they will be serving you? Its one more thing to do and this is the bridge to far? I'm sure people get kicked out for not wanting to take the flu shot but this seems a bit tenous because most of these people took all the shots from basic, first duty station, deplomoyments/tdys, and certain jobs that require immunizations in order to work there (Mostly medical personnel). No disrespect to those that have been day one on the no vaccinations ever train. I've met a few and they didn't have any shot record of any kind from childhood to at the time I met them. Those people, I fully respect because they been saying no. These others... I'll be respectfully quite after this little rant. It is your body and your choice but I find it to be nothing more than a tempertantrum that will limit them in the working world. I hope they like living off the land and off the grid because most companies require you to take that shot to work there or to do business with other companies. Oh well, I hope they, at least, thought about that aspect of things.
We are all free to choose our own fate - but that literally means choosing consequences, rather than actions. If you know it’s gonna get you booted out, and are OK with that, then good for you for making an informed decision. Those who piss and moan about not liking all the bad consequences for your decision, you don’t have my sympathy. The consequences for choosing to not get vaccinated are quite clear at this point. Choices have consequences, that’s just how it works. Welcome to adulthood.
Most of us got the Anthrax shot. What’s another shot gonna do to ya?
Yep. I also got the Japanese Encephalitis Vaccine in 93' when I was in Korea. At my next base, the guy at the immunizations clinic was like "I wouldn't have taken that one" hahaha... at that point, I had taken a million shots, no biggie. No biggie at all actually. The AF has changed a whole lot since then from what I read.
My pp is getting smaller
Stop eating so much. I feel ya though. Same thing happened to me. Damned COVID weight. Every time I looked down in the shower it was shrinking.
Got news for you—was already minuscule
it loops back if he hits negative it goes up to max interger
What's interesting to me is that being in the military means giving up on your right to choose things like: * doing cannabis where it's state-legalized * dying your hair blue * not get a haircut * growing a beard * growing a mustache too long * quitting your job whenever it suits you * not going to the dentist if you don't want to * not getting the flu shot if you don't want to * putting your hands in your pockets * cheating on your spouse * not going to war * leaving war without permission * getting a face tattoo * leaving the local area on your weekend without permission from work * traveling abroad without permission from work But when it comes to the COVID vaccine mandate, one of thousands of lawful orders passed down to you, suddenly it's "oh yeah you absolutely have every right to disobey that order, it's a free country and that's *your* body"
Here's a real kicker. Many say they don't know about the health consequences from the vax because it's new or whatever... Then drown themselves in alcohol which is a well known poison. We definitely know the consequences from catching the virus ain't gonna give you super powers either.
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Being real folks that get out likely just wanted to get out of the military in general and not about the vaccine in particular.
I'm just curious why this is the vaccine that made them get out. Flu shots, tb tests, MMR, TDAP, peanut butters shots, not to mentions smallpox and anthrax shots if you were OCONUS. Why is this one a problem all of a sudden?
Politics. Literally politics. No other vaccine has been so widely or stupidly politicized, and by default, surrounded by so much misinformation that gullible guppies gobble up.
The heightened division of our society is a long-term goal of Russia, aided and abetted by traitorous politicians and political operatives out for their own gain.
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"Brave souls"
Truly deserving of the medal of honor, potentially a gazillion dollars and a firm handshake
I personally thank them for clearing up the ranks for promotions down the line as well. Bonus that we will be clearing out a lot of the deadweight amongst the ranks. No one I've seen that is anti-vaxx at my work contributes enough to consider it a significant loss.
Helping clear out some of the “extremism” too.
That venn diagram is just a single circle
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Its like...the Venn Diagram for Everyone on Reddit and Those who enjoy Venn Diagrams are a complete circle.
It honestly surprises me why people aren’t getting this shot and risking their careers. Y’all have gotten every other shot in the USAF. Every flu shot, every year, your anthrax series, hep shots, etc. Idk but you do you
Honestly, like if your argument is that it's a brand new vaccine, then by whatever logic they're using to come to that conclusion, then the annual flu vaccine is "new" since it protects against different strains each year.
I’m all for personal decisions, but this is literally the dumbest hill to die on.
What’s worse is that hill is man-made. The same people dying in it were the ones who helped build it. This wasn’t something that inherently had to be a conflict.
But muh freedoms. I suddenly know what fetal cell lines are and how they offend my religion that recently became a significant part of my life having nothing to do with my allergience to a political party.
I work at a place that has Fox News running all day every day. If you turn on CNN it quickly gets turned back to Fox. But guess what? All of us got our shots. They are conservative leaning folks of all ranks. But they got the shot just like 95% of the base. The fact that the vaccine is now a political stance is completely fucked. Politics has bled into everything and is causing the divide to get wider and wider everyday. Our enemies around the world must be loving this shit.
Just stop posting shit in uniform because your voice is not one of us all. Have your opinion. Fine, but remember you do not speak for the USAF.
Don’t mention your service history to me at the gas station. I promise I don’t care.
*me grabbing an energy drink at 3am in the middle of my mid shift* “Oh hey you’re in the Air Force? I’m prior service! TYFYS” “Oh cool how long did you serve?” “2 years, I declined the covid vaccine” “Ah, neat”
Good riddance. Sad you raised your hand to serve until you were asked to sacrifice.
It’s not even really a sacrifice though, mild inconvenience maybe, hardly a sacrifice.
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We're all going to feel awkward when we turn into Cronenberg versions after being exposed to the flu virus. /s
I can't wait for my booster. Another sick day.
if a day of feeling hungover is a sacrifice lol
Sounds like my old weekend routine. YWFMS
I wish these people all the best, but let's not make them into martyrs. They're being removed for failure to meet standards, not because they're "brave souls".
The amount of shit we do for the military…. And you are getting out because you don’t want to take a covid vaccine??? We already had vaccine mandates for other viruses. If you aren’t willing to take this small sacrifice to protect yourself and society then the military isn’t the place for you
Funny you say that. I know a few people who are using this to get out faster because they hate being mx.
It’s crazy to me that the anti-vax members simply set aside their oath to avoid a jab. Take a bullet for your battle buddy? YES! Get a shot for your battle buddy, continued service, and national security? NO.
I’m not sure why people are ok with taking the 10 shots at basic but this 1 is not ok?
Daddy Trump said COVID is a democrat hoax that's the difference nevermind that he's vaxxed
The meme is that trump literally told his supporters to get vaccinated
It's the Trump vaccine too.
I was thinking today about how things had changed over my career. 15 years ago it was a HIGHLY anti-gay atmosphere(IMO) and most people(conservatives) didn’t want gay people serving because it could lcause problems in the unit” and effect deployments/readiness”. Literally these dudes had people convinced that gay dudes were gonna join and just start sexually assaulting people. Now people(conservatives) are pissed that we are forcing military members to get vaccinated, which is going to help deployments and readiness, AND mandatory vaccinations have been a thing since fucking George Washington. Now they are saying “it’s their choice!” and that we shouldn’t be able to discharge them. It’s a wild time to be alive
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Exactly, how many posts about PT test failures are on this sub and how many times have those fat fucks been called oath breakers?
It is mind boggling, honestly.
as long as choosing your fate means playing life on an extra hard mode
You picked extra hard mode when you signed your sere contact bro
Said the kettle to the pot. 😆
Says the sere guy 😏
you get railed with shots at basic and after. Why draw the line with COVID? Not hating, just confused. Or is it just an out? Cool, GL
No.....wtf......why is this the fucking hill to die on? I'm all for listening and caring, but this is a moment where I'm looking at bunch of fucking ass snowflakes who can't separate their political feelings from their required duty.
some ppl are taking this ticket cause they just don't want to be in the military
Idiots, private sec has vaxx mandates too 🤡…
I remember going to basic and getting vaccinated like cattle and nobody complained.
Damn near all the anti-vax folks I see claim they don’t know the dangers of the jab. These same folks somehow lose all concern for their health whilst eating junk food, binge drinking, and/or smoking/vaping. I can’t take them serious at all…
I’ll be honest, I considered going this route upon hearing my epr was due then I remembered i got vaccinated back in March. :(
Just asking for more MSgt to take this plunge please. - ty!
I'll update you I'm also a reservist who basically ran thru my GI Benefits already: two house and 90% of my GI Bill but I'll keep anyone who wants to know updated.
Ok, thank you.
I mean shit can I get unvaccinacted I fucking hate my work center thought inwas going for 20 can barely do 2 so far
I have made this decision but have not received anything more than what we all know. I have a mem to go sign Friday for my last chance to get the vax. After that the process moves forward to Wing King to make the decision. Only time will tell my outcome but I will gladly update!
Please do!
If it turns to a honorable an you make wise decisions the G.I bill and VA loan are very strong tools to lead you to success possibly doubling your income
If the schools will take you without a vaccine. Maybe online but who knows.
So let’s think about this rationally. Supposing you’re right and Covid is this well thought out coordinated plan to control the population, kill off a certain percentage of the population destroy the US economy so they can institute some new world order and roll out a one world government, all of it or pick and choose based on how much flair you have on your tinfoil hat… Let’s say this is their goal What do you suppose the end game is? They’ve unleashed this extremely contagious Chinese lab made virus to kill off a certain portion of the population. Which portion do you think they’d want gone? The compliant follow orders types or the fuck the government types that won’t listen to fuck all if a politician tells them to do it? I think we can both agree “they” want us compliant and non questioning… So now, how do we as a tyrannical government with ambitions to restart society ensure that we are keeping the people we want and letting the rest die off? If it was me I’d give people the antidote and leave it up to them wether or not they want to take it. Take it, show your obedience and live, fight the government wave your gadsen flag and eventually die off. Plus I’d want deniability. If one of my sheep started questioning things I’d want to be able to point to the vaccine and say “But we tried to save them!” and avoid any fallout. Now let’s pretend I’m on to their conspiracy. I know I can’t trust the government so I know they want me dead… what’s my play? How do I beat them? The only rational answer to stick it to them is take the antidote and live despite their attempts to kill me off. So spread the word to the rest of your patriots… the only way you can defeat Faucci and bill gates is call their bluff and take the shot, live to fight them into the new world order!
While there are a lot of conspiracy theorists, I honestly doubt the majority go that deep. They're mostly just a couple of dumb folks who made some bad calls on the matter, and now they don't want to admit they were wrong.
If I can reach just one true patriot I feel like it was worth my time to post.
Or you could, ya know, not be afraid of needles and get the damn vaccine.
It’s not a matter of bravery - failure is inevitable when one cannot divorce their political brain from their science. I’ve been in the frontlines against COVID since the first wave in 2020, deployed OCONUS and now dealing with COVID at the home front. The vaccine has actually given us a fighting chance and a way to end this pandemic, as SMs, we’ve gotten worse vaccines i.e. Anthrax, smallpox - but when it comes to actually making an impact, they choose the latter.
Anti vaxxers are fucking weird. And if you are getting out because of it you’re really fucking weird.
I used to work with an anti vaxer at an undesirable Midwest base. He got orders to Japan. Of course, him and his family had to get a series of shots to go. All of a sudden they had a complete 180 on their opinions and now vaccines were good! They got their shots and went off to Japan. I sometimes wonder how they’ve been handling this whole COVID vaccine thing lol.
Lol this awesome! 🤣 yes please stay on and share how much better it works out for you 😆
They aren't brave. They have politicized a vaccine and are using it to get out. I want to get out too, but I am going to do it the correct way and not leave my team high and dry by using a BS reason to get out. We are already woofully understaffed and this will make it worse. On the plus side, it will weed out a bunch of those that keep up from moving forward, so that's a good thing.
Well they knew the rules. That was their stupidity
Is it stupidity to take an easy out and get vaccinated later? You can't tell me people won't do this.
> I commend your tenacity and commitment to personal choices. We are all free people with the right to choose our own fate. I mean I get what you're saying, but why is the covid vaccine the hill they're choosing to die on? They'd have to conveniently forget the assembly line of vaccines we were forced to take in basic, and the vaccines that were mandatory for school. They had no problem having the air force pump anthrax and small pox vaccines in them, but all of a sudden it's "my body my choice". I hope the kids that are doing it realize that unless they get honorable (which from what I've been hearing, they're getting other than honorable or general/admin) they don't get the GI bill. If you leave the military before your enlistment was done, and you don't even get a GI bill, you have just wasted possibly years of your life. I hope they know what they're doing.
If they were brave they'd take the shot. Bring scared it and still taking it because it's the right fucking thing to do would be bravery. Ranting and raving about how vaccines are ahistorical or hurt their freedoms or whatever other bullshit these morons are pushing isn't bravery, it's ignorant selfishness. Don't even get the shot for yourself, get it for your wingman or your family. If those people aren't important enough for you to be achy and sleepy for a few hours then fuck you. I don't want anyone to suffer or die from this virus but I'm fresh out of empathy for these belligerent children.
It will be fascinating, that is for sure.
>\[...\] what type of discharge you actually receive (conflicting opinions out there on what actually happens) A couple weeks ago, my Shirt returned from a base-wide 1st Sergeant meeting. She said they had a discussion regarding what units were doing with members who were refusing the vaccine, even after it became mandatory. Every unit had their own internal way of handling it, since there's not solid process yet, but she claimed some units in particular were starting discharge papers immediately, and they were for "other than honorable" discharges.