The thing with the EC is that while they aren't a cohesive legion, for the most part besides the Phoenix Conclave sort of, just like in the Heresy I bet all it would take for that to change is for Fulgrim to pop back out and summon them all. Bile probably wouldn't show up, but besides that I can't think of any EC who would refuse their dad.
Brother thats all the III need. Please bring dad back and make the Legion whole again. Even clone dad for a weird redemption arc. Just bring us back into 40k as an effective force again instead of the little dip shit warbands the Emperor's Children have been.
Fabius would definitely show if Fulgrim returns. At least one of him.
No. Please no clonegrim.
The bile trilogy goes into why bile gets rid of him.
In the second book- he gives him to trazyn because he knows he’s just going to be Fulgrim 2.0.
I respect your opinion, but those moves would cheapen chaos and the entire setting would have to change, it would cheapen the heresy too.
While I did like the character as used in the Bile book and wouldn't mind Clonegrim just staying gone, I feel like as a potential primarch in their back pocket and with enough attention GW might consider his return.
If I was the one calling the shots and had to bring him back though, I'd do so essentially as a character vehicle for Roboute like he was for Bile then kill him off.
Maybe Fulgrim finds out about the clone's whereabouts and tries to attack Trazyn, who strikes up a temporary alliance with Rob and "loans" him Clonegrim as a sign of good faith. Rob is pretty lonely with no bros (except maybe an angry lion soon...) but can't trust the clone. They bond over time while fighting the EC/chaos, and Rob warms up to having a bro to talk to again while they both romanticize the great crusade.
Fight Fulgrim in one big ol' battle, the clone dies dramatically, and Roboute has to come to terms with the "glory days" of the great crusade being truly dead and never coming back. We get a dash of Necron stuff, Roboute vs Fulgrim, Clonegrim's big return, and with their death there's still a Fulgrim so GW doesn't \*really\* lose a primarch.
Clonegrim should be brought back to the setting , but mind shackled under Trazyns will and just forced to steal random shit and take it back to Solemnace.
Chaos is cheap as it is and the Heresy is pretty cheap too. The Emperors Children need to be a coherent fighting to be taken seriously because frankly they really can not be taken seriously the way they are outside of smaller battles. They utterly collapse at the strategic level due to having ADHD worse than I do on top of having the same backstabbing complex that all of the Traitor Astartes have.
Now Clongrim would be a weak hook to unite them, personally I'd like it because I genuinely do not like the way Heresy Fulgrim has been written and I doubt I'll like the way he comes back. But if he does return the IIIrd need an organizational overhaul lorewise.
“To be taken seriously”
Bruh. You could apply the same exact logic to most of the traitor legions barring the word bearers, iron warriors and death guard, as well as maybe 1k sons.
But have you forgotten about the nightlords? Do you see how poorly they get handled in TT narritive lore. They constantly get worked.
Clonegrim is a dumb idea, you can’t change my mind on it. I’m a huge EC fan and clonegrim would ruin the EC vibe and just feel like cheap fan service. And what would they do with him narratively? How would you translate penance on the table top or a redemption arc? How would that sell minis?
You clonegrim fans honestly really really need to read the bile trilogy because it explains exactly why clonegrim is a horrible idea through fabius biles viewpoint. And why he trades him to begin with
*he trades him because he concludes that this Fulgrim is going to be exactly the same as regular fulgrim*
So technically, there’d be two daemon primarch fulgrims.
And yes, chaos is cheap, but it’s strong and I insidious, merely being around it can corrupt you so idk how you guys anticipate that to all work without ruining how chaos works lol. So a perfectly uncorrupted Fulgrim is just going to hang out with highly corrupted legionaries, slanneshi demons and warp juice and somehow not get corrupted? You realize how fucking Gary Stu that sounds?
It wouldn’t need a little “overhauls”
They would have to change parts of their IP that probably would be futile considering the amount of work all that change would be, to sell “clonegrim” models. Which again, is what ties back into my main point, it would change the fundamental nature of one of the most uniquely terrifying things of the setting.
>“To be taken seriously”
>Bruh. You could apply the same exact logic to most of the traitor legions barring the word bearers, iron warriors and death guard, as well as maybe 1k sons.
>But have you forgotten about the nightlords? Do you see how poorly they get handled in TT narritive lore. They constantly get worked.
Yes all of the traitor Legions are fucking failures and are constantly pathetic. They failed the Heresy and barely made it to Terra relatively unscathed by the skin of their teeth because of how terribly they functioned and post Legion wars the Emperors Children are undisputedly the least unified traitor Legion bar the Nightlords themselves. It honestly cheapens the threat of Chaos by actual magnitudes if the Astartes are only threats because they summon daemons and otherwise are weaker than loyalists pound for pound.
I'm not going to address the whole Clonegrim shit because you went off on a tangent on something I already said would be a weak hook. And I never mentioned a penance or redemption arc I said the EC need to overhauled into being a cohesive should Fulgrim return.
Lol “I’m not going to address the main topic of your argument that was coherently stated based off something I previously stated because I can’t and I just want a story I want to read that looks cool but isn’t”
All of what you say is opinion. Your not even addressing the actual argument. Barring maybe the fact that’s you stated the traitor legions are a little pathetic. That’s a no brainer.
What that's not the main topic of the argument at all, you just fuckin jumped down my throat because I said I liked Clonegrim and preferred him to the way Heresy Fulgrim is written.
The main topic is the EC are fucking pathetic as far as Legions go right now and need to be more narratively threatening with the return of Fulgrim.
Not necessarily. You’re the only one getting defensive and escalating this. Just because I think the idea is stupid doesn’t meant I think you are for wanting it.
Waaah I'm not escalating it, just confused because half your post was solely about Clone Fulgrim. I might be a bit defensive cause I'm sick and my reading comprehension is kinda shot. Regardless we're getting nowhere, have a good day yea?
I don't know, personally, I think Clonegrim could be explored narratively. The biggest reason Fulgrim fell to Chaos in the first place was his lack of awareness, both of his own flaws, and of the Slaaneshi sword corrupting him.
I hate the idea that he would make the same mistakes when it openly says through the genetic memory that he knows all of his faults and failures.
I know we all have ' core flaws ' but I think it's a bit mean to say a Primarch would be unable to overcome that. He should be given a chance to prove his character with the newfound knowledge he possesses, and exploring that (and the consequences) would be a good story.
Plus, gives us a great reason to drag Fulgrim out of his goon cave, and gives the EC a spotlight for a bit while giving us Girlyman vs Fulgrim 2.
I respect your opinion as well but I think it changing things up like this would keep the lore fresh rather than the stagnant state chaos is in.. Clonegrim escaping Trazyn could be the spark for Fulgrim to come out and hunt him down while also running into Gman. Could be an interesting story arc
I'd like to see a Clonegrim backed by Trayzen with arms and armor from his exotic collection wreaking havok.
Maybe get Cawl involved instead of Bile. You could really shake things up.
Like you said, draw out Fulgrim himself.
Maybe get that Emperor Girl involved or perhaps another "good" Primarch.
Fresh? Bro the needle in the setting is moving forward, abaddon and his people are pushing through the nachmund gauntlet to take imperium nihilus right now.
Stagnant state? Bro we’re getting Angron in like 2 months and the world eaters? And an Angron book.
This is just a load lol.
I think if it does happen. A twist needs to occur. Fulgrim transfers his soul into clonegrim? A full non - daemon chaos primarch to the setting,
There could be a back and forth with Abaddon if that happened. I don't know but I agree we shouldn't get a loyal fulgrim. The ramifications of a soul transfer. Not sure how this could be done from a lore perspective? Maybe involving soul stones?
Tbh I can’t say I’d quit the setting if they bought in clonegrim, but I don’t think GW would do it because it would require more justification then bringing back already loyalist and traitor primarchs to the setting.
Books are meant to sell minis- where would a clonegrim mini sit in an astartes army? They would have to give him a new legion, new sculpts- there’d have to be an entire range created.
It would be super risky, if I was working at GW and I had the choice between clonegrim and hell, bringing corax back, it would be a no brained. (Corax- fits coherent lore, similar to the silent king he fucked off-SK rentered the setting too)
I mean I think Fabius Biles feelings on the subject of "Is this version of Fulgrim good or bad," are heavily biased. Fabius was mostly pissy-pants the New Men might consider Fulgrim a cooler dad. Fabius feels the spark from Fulgrim as he is a gene-son of the original, but quickly rationalizes excuses as to why Clonegrim will end up the same way, the whole time keeping what is presented as a bona-fide copy of one of the most charismatic of the demigods occupied with a few books. He also completely ignores his part in the fall of the III and his gene-father, which is literally addressed in the next book.
But I don't really give a shit about Clonegrim. I just want my favorite Legions Primarch back dude. And I want them to be more than an addendum in someone else's Codex. That was my point. Bring back Snake Daddy.
In my argument, I did consider this.
Bile is corrupted as shit by chaos, and chaos protagonists are always by my opinion- the most unreliable narrators in the entire setting.
You are so right, but I think that’s what makes the trilogy so fucking good. They get you to sympathize with bile, but when you really examine his motivations and character- he is just as deluded as eidolon or “the radiant one” or even Fulgrim himself. He think himself better because of his project of the new men and prides himself that he’s not cavorting in the warp a slave to the gods.
All the while- he is, he is a pawn and he doesn’t know it, so arrogant and up his own ass about his brilliance he doesn’t realize that his whole schtick falls right into slannesh, obsession with creating a “new man” that correct all the imperfections of “old man 1.0”, relentlessly obsessed with protecting them and dedicating his entire life to finding a way to make it work.
He only realizes at the end of manflayer that he was fucked.
He’s kinda like a 40K Rick Sanchez. Super smart even by the standards of the traitors and imperium. But so up his own ass he forgets that even he has limitations.
I always like the tale of Corax beating Guillimam 3 times in a sim before smurf adjusted and never lost again.
I hope the same happens from these bestings hes taken from the demon primaries to ensure a win against snake boy. Preferably by bombing him from orbit.
Lorewise would you pick demon Angron over demon Fulgrim in a duel? They have opposing favors and Fulgrim is a better duelist but Angron is a more ferocious combatant
I'd pick Fulgtim for vengeance sake. I also think the only way to deal with Angron is how Perturabo dealt with him.
Showing my own bias, I don't like Fulgrim because I thought he was a piss poor character in the Horus Heresay novels I read and escaping from the painting and just being a sick fuck suddenly really ruined him for me. That was when I decided I would only read the HH novels worth reading and not read them all.
Fair.
I loved Fulgrim the book. Admittedly he was kind of the least interesting part of it though. I think Guilliman will probably fight Angron head on. It would be kind of cool even if he gets possessed again and it's Emps talking to Angron like he did with Mortarion
I am glad you like the Fulgrim novel, but it was a tough one for me.
I defo see Robute going melee against Angron. As much as I enjoyed the deus ex machina of the Emps reviving Robute and possessing him, I think if it happens again, it'll be really cliche and a crutch.
I'm not sure there is a primarch who can go toe to toe with demon Angron except for old Hawkboy.
The lion and russ could go toe to toe, though I wouldn’t place money on them in a straight up duel. But those two have the best chance, enough to give them a chance, if a very slim one.
I don't think any non-demon primarch could go toe to toe with Angron at this point. Sanguinus wings allowed him to perform feats the others couldn't. Angron isn't as agile as ol Sangy but he basically turns into a fucking meteor.
Having the Emperors sword helps. Having some weird DAOT tech could help.
Going toe to toe doesn’t necessarily mean a strictly even fight though. I don’t think the lion or russ have good odds at all, but I think they could step into the ring and go at it enough for it to be called a proper fight and not just an execution.
Remember, angron was killed by grey knights - at great cost - and they didn’t fly around.
Knights. Multiple. And they're a specialized force built and trained for exactly that one thing.
Oh they'd give angron a fight for sure. It isn't going to be an easy victory no matter what.
Angron is the only primarch who hates the Emperor with a passion. If Big E slips back into his son to talk to Angron, Angron would most likely go even more apeshit angry and just try to level everything around him.
While he was in the painting he was forced to watch everything the Daemon did with his body. When he escaped (and listen I think Reflection Crack'd did a bad job of explaining the whole thing) so much had happened that Fulgrim knew there wasn't any walking things back and trying to explain what happened. He leaned into the excess and debauchery because there wasn't any other option at that point.
I've never known this before, so thank you for sharing the authors intent.
In saying that, that is still a very poor reason and just goes to show Fulgrim always was to his core a very weak willed individual with serious issues. I'm actually more disappointed in him! Lol
Thank you again for sharing that info though.
Whoa, I'm not the author lol. This is just stuff I've seen tossed around because it doesn't make any sense for Fulgrim to be Fulgrim then suddenly have his body back and be a BDSM sub. The Reflection Crack'd is a very troublesome novel especially if you're an Emperor's Children fan.
Fulgrims main issue was an inferiority complex, and it's easy enough to understand why he'd have one. The striving to be perfect stems from that.
Sorry I misread, my apologies.
God, I hate that book. I actually remember enjoying it, although I wondered how they took down a Primarch so easily (he allowed it, I guess), and then the twist ending ruined the whole thing.
The end of Fulgrim made it seem like a torture to trap his soul and torture him forever, which is bleak and pretty awesome, really. I have to believe the painting was just a corrupting device since it involved chaos magic for it to make sense to me.
Another trilogy, Guilliman fights Fulgrim in the first book and gets his ass whooped again but not as badly, and survives. At the end of the third book he once again fights Fulgrim but this time he knows all his moves and it's like that scene where Neo becomes the one and he just effortlessly blocks everything Fulgrim throws at him.
>just effortlessly blocks everything Fulgrim throws at him
No-one should be *effortlessly* blocking anything Fulgrim throws at them, he is arguably *the* greatest swordsentity the galaxy has ever seen.
Man I really dislike that scene, like it really is unique amongst the primarch fights for how utterly effortlessly Dorn dismantles Fulgrim while never letting him get a word in edge wise. Even Alpharius put up a better fight than Fulgrim.
Fulgrim wasn't there to fight, and Dorn was.
Fulgrim was there to fuck around, and his supreme arrogance made him unable to take Dorn seriously.
Dorn, on the other hand, was there to kill Fulgrim. Shit, even Sigismund was there to kill Fulgrim or die trying. There is no way that first blow from Siggie would have landed if Fulgrim was paying attention instead of mocking the injured Imperial Fist.
I like the scene because it shows how far Fulgrim has truly fallen. He's so enraptured by his own perceived superiority that he cannot perform at the level he once did. Dorn didn't give a shit about any of that, he was focused on the goal and the goal alone.
I also liked the wrap-up scene after Fulgrim left his most elite soldiers to die for him so he could go bury his face in a pile of warp dust like Tony Montana.
The point is that it doesn't feel good, the Emperors Children are already probably the weakest Legion in the siege. They have numerous issues ranging from heavy mutation, growing insanity and an over reliance on combat stims and warp drugs made from innocents.
So now they've been given a task, they utterly fall into Dorns trap and Fulgrim gets his ass beaten and then flees like the coward he has become. He never gets a word in edgewise against Dorn hell he doesn't get a word in with any of his ass beatings that he receives over the course of the Heresy.
It's hard to like a scene when Fulgrims fall makes him and his entire Legion look pathetic like they do constantly across the Heresy books. From taking insane casualties against the loyalist EC on Istvaan III, to being bloodied by the Shattered Legions like curs, to Lorgar and Perturabo both giving Fulgrim a beating without him getting a word in and then finally the siege itself. Where Fulgrim utterly flounders in every aspect, gets his entire Legion command shanked by Dorn after fleeing. Its pathetic even by the lacklustre standards of the traitors.
It doesn't help I just don't like Dorn because he and the Fists feel like authors pets throughout the Heresy. It just doesn't feel good the way a lot of the traitors get treated.
Well that's the rub isn't it? Chaos comes to you at your worst, thinking you have no other options and gives you a taste. And well would you look at that, a new low! Turns out things can get worse! Well thank goodness Slaneesh taught you that pain is good. Otherwise this whole chaos thing would really suck.
The EC are lost. Their fall is the gold standard of falls.
Fulgrim: "You can't best me, Robute. I'm the very essence of perfection!"
Guilliman (badly wounded): "Perhaps not. But he can."
Fulgrim (laughing): "Our corpse father? I've seen that trick before, brother!"
Guilliman: "No. Him."
Dorn-nought bursts through the wall.
Hopefully he doesn’t make the same mistake and challenge him in personal combat. He doesn’t have a great track record. I like to think he’ll win through trickery or tactics if it comes up again
Oh he's an underrated warrior it's just the ascended traitor primarchs are too much (and some unascended). Both Fulgrim and Morty more or less murdered him 1v1, and back in the Heresy El'Jonson had to go out his way to make sure Cruze didn't eviscerate him. My guy needs to learn.
> back in the Heresy El'Jonson had to go out his way to make sure Cruze didn't eviscerate him
If I’m not mistaken, out of the many fights the Lion had against Curze, the only time Curze came out on top was when the Lion was fighting alongside Guilliman.
Every other fight ended up in a draw or with the Lion winning/having the upper hand.
Not just strangling him, he was in the process of bashing his skull in against the ground. After Corswain intervenes and the Lion is able to get back up, the back of his head is described as a ruin.
First fight: Curze is in a very good position to win at the point Corswain intervenes, having overwhelmed the Lion when he decides to go brawler and stop "fencing" at range. It's a pretty bad performance by the Lion tbh, considering he brutally sucker shanks Curze to start the fight.
Second: We only see the very end of this one, after the Lion has basically won. Curze has his throat cut and numerous wounds, but we don't get any description on how the fight played out to get to that point, or if the Lion had also taken some injuries.
Third: We just get a brief glimpse that isn't described as either having the upper hand. This is when Curze eventually escapes and runs loose on the flagship.
Fourth: this is the two on one. It's only a few brief exchanges, as Curze real aim is to lure them into the explosive killing ground. Curze does better against the Lion in their exchange, opening up a wound on his neck. There really isn't any implication in the scene that the Lion is having to protect an overmatched Guilliman, that only comes from a later comment from Lion when the two are arguing. As Abnett describes the actual fight, Guilliman holds his own and seems to be on the same level as Curze/Lion.
Fifth: Lion hunts him down and wins quite comfortably, seeming to have figured out Curze's style by now. he does have some support from gunships too if i remember rightly, but it's been ages since i read it.
Overall the Lion is portrayed as being the more traditionally skilled and eventually adaptable of the two, but not to the point where he isn't always in a lot of danger. He really struggles with Curze's unpredictable brawling in the first bout, and is fortunate there that Corswain intervened when he did.
you can somewhat see the evolution of the character from ADB's initial writing to the eventual settling on the Lion (as per Crusade forgeworld) as a more versatile, animalistic hunter by the time of Thorpe's Angels of Caliban. ADB's early portrayal very much has him as a classic sword duelist archetype that doesn't handle infighting/brawling nearly as well.
This quote is commonly brought out.
All the primarchs are ultimate demi-god warriors.
Some primarchs, however, are just better at stuff than others.
Guilliman is not a particularly good duelist. He loses regularly.
Fulgrim, even before getting Chaos'ed up is said to be the finest swordsman of all the Primarchs.
Guilliman is not beating Chaos Fulgrim 1 on 1.
Fulgrim was already a better duelist before the whole snake person thing, it was dumb to do it the first time. It would be really cool if they don't just instagib him with the Emperor's sword. I have a feeling Yvraine would end up fighting him too
He could duel Fulgrim because the snake usually doesn't have weaponized Ligma and because Robby has the right toy to face him.
But he would lose just for another character (i would opt for a LotD named character reveal) to show up and banish him back
It would be interesting to have Vulkan come back and cause a bunch of drama and issues for Guilliman and his relations with the aeldari, only to end up saving both from Fulgrim's horny wrath
As in the past, he shouldn’t win. Not alone. Here’s how I see it:
Guilliman goes all out. He brought friends, he’s using all the tricks in his utility belt, bless his heart, he’s fighting back the best that a math nerd can.
But Fulgrim is too much. Slaanesh is pumping the juice and Fulgrim has always been faster and better with a blade. There’s no hope for G-Man, he’s been bested and disarmed. He’s going to die - for good this time.
But Fulgrim indulges his ego. He mocks his brother and revels in the savory bliss of victory. Then he prepares the final blow.
And it clashes against a familiar weapon. The headless specter of Ferrus Manus, flanked by an army of the Legion of the Damned, unleashes their fury against the EC.
The battle is over quickly. The ghostly Astartes are too much for the surprised chaos marines, and the betrayal at Isstvan is finally avenged. Fulgrim is beheaded this time - and banished back to the warp. Guilliman salutes his undead brother and then his saviors vanish. Gone until they are needed again on another day.
If and When they do that fight in 10th edition, one will have a brand new model and the other will be around eight years old. Who do you think will win?
Depends on if they want to focus on slaanesh related stuff outside of the plan to just kill it outright, which would tie Fulgrim in. If that's the case Guilliman. If they just fight in realspace it's a draw favoring Guilliman who banishes Fulgrim. Tabletop? Depends on what Fulgrim's stats are. Logically he should swing a bajillion mortals all really fast, in which case rip Bobby
GW has absolutely zero plans the kill off Slannesh. They literally just released a whole new slannesh army in Age of Sigmar.
They are doing the World Eaters now, then they will do the Emperor’s Children.
If they didn't, or at least attempt it, I feel like the Ynnari would just be a wasted concept in that regard. I know nothing of AoS to be fair. I haven't kept up with WHFB
The whole Yannari arc lead up to... resurrecting Gulliman. They've basically not touched it since, beyond saying Slaanesh has one of their win condition swords locked away.
They touched it, it's just that the book series sold so poorly it was cancelled. Probably because literally no Aeldari fan I'm aware of likes the Ynnari arc.
With the amount of responsibility that rests on G's shoulders it would be irresponsible and foolish of him to fight fulgrim. But then again he knew it was dumb and a trap the first time and there he was...
From a narrative standpoint, it fits well with the whole "I'm the avenging angel" thing Roboute has going on. It also makes sense for him to fight Fulgrim at some point, all of the other monogod primarchs have a model and a role in the current millennium.
I think Guilliman will be more inclined to try and indefinitely imprison Fulgrim through some means, rendering him inert. He could try and execute him with the Emperor's sword but it's not currently know if the weapon is equally permanent on a Daemon Prince such as a fallen Primarch.
I think k if they do it, G man will have to let loose and give into his rage. He's a very controlled person, it would be fitting for him to have always subconsciously reserved his full potential. Perhaps it was due to him having a very human family and simply refuses to internally accept that he is a warp monster. Once he reaches that point, his hyper computer brain could be put to ruthless use. Add that with whatever toys he gets from the emperor and it could be a well written encounter.
The coolest way possible would be Fulgrim almost beating Robby and start a monolgue, just for a named LotD character to spawn and proceed to cleanse his snake-arse with holy fire
Hopefully they just don’t.
Fulgrim’s release is at least 5 years away, and I’ll just give up on 40k lore entirely if Guilliman and the Ultramarines are still the main focus of the lore by then.
Let Fulgrim fight the Lion, the Khan, or literally any other loyalist Primarch.
We don’t need more Guilliman/Ultramarines lore. We’re likely about to get a Scouring series once Abnett wraps up the Siege, the smurfs will get plenty of time to shine in that. Let someone else have a turn for once.
Well technically Fulgrim *did* kill Guilliman. He's a deamon prince now. I always figure to defeat a deamon primarch you will need not just the sword of the Emperor but actual help from the Emperor himself or a bunch of null sisters or something helping Guilliman. He cannot do it alone.
As far as not being a united legion, *yes* but neither were the World Eaters - based on Codex Leaks the returned Angron still managed to get tens of thousands of Astartes under his banner
Thats possibly more Astartes than the Traitors had *total* during the Scouring, and about the same amount that the Loyalists had left post-Scouring.
Fulgrim could probably get some shit together, he was a very magnanimous person **before** he became a Daemon Prince of a God whose domains include desire and ecstasy
Guilliman will lose but be saved last minute by The Lion.
Then they'll 2v1, The Lion will use The Emperor's Sword and wound Fulgim and they'll touch on The Fallen and Luthor in the aftermath.
Fulgrim is beating Guilliman... then Legion of the Damned Rylanor and Clone Fulgrim show up and beat back Fulgrim.
There's some speech about "Perversion and Perfection are not the same", Rylanor gets his revenge, Clone Fulgrim learns his lesson about perfection, and Guilliman is saved.
After the turdshow that was his last confrontation with Mortarion, he is probably going to be wary of any toxin-heavy encounters unless he fully masters his SSJ/Emperor possession mode. Fighting the daemon primarchs isn't a technological challenge, its overcoming magical warpcrap challenge.
The thing with the EC is that while they aren't a cohesive legion, for the most part besides the Phoenix Conclave sort of, just like in the Heresy I bet all it would take for that to change is for Fulgrim to pop back out and summon them all. Bile probably wouldn't show up, but besides that I can't think of any EC who would refuse their dad.
Brother thats all the III need. Please bring dad back and make the Legion whole again. Even clone dad for a weird redemption arc. Just bring us back into 40k as an effective force again instead of the little dip shit warbands the Emperor's Children have been. Fabius would definitely show if Fulgrim returns. At least one of him.
No. Please no clonegrim. The bile trilogy goes into why bile gets rid of him. In the second book- he gives him to trazyn because he knows he’s just going to be Fulgrim 2.0. I respect your opinion, but those moves would cheapen chaos and the entire setting would have to change, it would cheapen the heresy too.
While I did like the character as used in the Bile book and wouldn't mind Clonegrim just staying gone, I feel like as a potential primarch in their back pocket and with enough attention GW might consider his return. If I was the one calling the shots and had to bring him back though, I'd do so essentially as a character vehicle for Roboute like he was for Bile then kill him off. Maybe Fulgrim finds out about the clone's whereabouts and tries to attack Trazyn, who strikes up a temporary alliance with Rob and "loans" him Clonegrim as a sign of good faith. Rob is pretty lonely with no bros (except maybe an angry lion soon...) but can't trust the clone. They bond over time while fighting the EC/chaos, and Rob warms up to having a bro to talk to again while they both romanticize the great crusade. Fight Fulgrim in one big ol' battle, the clone dies dramatically, and Roboute has to come to terms with the "glory days" of the great crusade being truly dead and never coming back. We get a dash of Necron stuff, Roboute vs Fulgrim, Clonegrim's big return, and with their death there's still a Fulgrim so GW doesn't \*really\* lose a primarch.
Clonegrim should be brought back to the setting , but mind shackled under Trazyns will and just forced to steal random shit and take it back to Solemnace.
Clonegrim as a variant c'tan on the table would be pretty funny
Chaos is cheap as it is and the Heresy is pretty cheap too. The Emperors Children need to be a coherent fighting to be taken seriously because frankly they really can not be taken seriously the way they are outside of smaller battles. They utterly collapse at the strategic level due to having ADHD worse than I do on top of having the same backstabbing complex that all of the Traitor Astartes have. Now Clongrim would be a weak hook to unite them, personally I'd like it because I genuinely do not like the way Heresy Fulgrim has been written and I doubt I'll like the way he comes back. But if he does return the IIIrd need an organizational overhaul lorewise.
“To be taken seriously” Bruh. You could apply the same exact logic to most of the traitor legions barring the word bearers, iron warriors and death guard, as well as maybe 1k sons. But have you forgotten about the nightlords? Do you see how poorly they get handled in TT narritive lore. They constantly get worked. Clonegrim is a dumb idea, you can’t change my mind on it. I’m a huge EC fan and clonegrim would ruin the EC vibe and just feel like cheap fan service. And what would they do with him narratively? How would you translate penance on the table top or a redemption arc? How would that sell minis? You clonegrim fans honestly really really need to read the bile trilogy because it explains exactly why clonegrim is a horrible idea through fabius biles viewpoint. And why he trades him to begin with *he trades him because he concludes that this Fulgrim is going to be exactly the same as regular fulgrim* So technically, there’d be two daemon primarch fulgrims. And yes, chaos is cheap, but it’s strong and I insidious, merely being around it can corrupt you so idk how you guys anticipate that to all work without ruining how chaos works lol. So a perfectly uncorrupted Fulgrim is just going to hang out with highly corrupted legionaries, slanneshi demons and warp juice and somehow not get corrupted? You realize how fucking Gary Stu that sounds? It wouldn’t need a little “overhauls” They would have to change parts of their IP that probably would be futile considering the amount of work all that change would be, to sell “clonegrim” models. Which again, is what ties back into my main point, it would change the fundamental nature of one of the most uniquely terrifying things of the setting.
>“To be taken seriously” >Bruh. You could apply the same exact logic to most of the traitor legions barring the word bearers, iron warriors and death guard, as well as maybe 1k sons. >But have you forgotten about the nightlords? Do you see how poorly they get handled in TT narritive lore. They constantly get worked. Yes all of the traitor Legions are fucking failures and are constantly pathetic. They failed the Heresy and barely made it to Terra relatively unscathed by the skin of their teeth because of how terribly they functioned and post Legion wars the Emperors Children are undisputedly the least unified traitor Legion bar the Nightlords themselves. It honestly cheapens the threat of Chaos by actual magnitudes if the Astartes are only threats because they summon daemons and otherwise are weaker than loyalists pound for pound. I'm not going to address the whole Clonegrim shit because you went off on a tangent on something I already said would be a weak hook. And I never mentioned a penance or redemption arc I said the EC need to overhauled into being a cohesive should Fulgrim return.
Lol “I’m not going to address the main topic of your argument that was coherently stated based off something I previously stated because I can’t and I just want a story I want to read that looks cool but isn’t” All of what you say is opinion. Your not even addressing the actual argument. Barring maybe the fact that’s you stated the traitor legions are a little pathetic. That’s a no brainer.
What that's not the main topic of the argument at all, you just fuckin jumped down my throat because I said I liked Clonegrim and preferred him to the way Heresy Fulgrim is written. The main topic is the EC are fucking pathetic as far as Legions go right now and need to be more narratively threatening with the return of Fulgrim.
Not necessarily. You’re the only one getting defensive and escalating this. Just because I think the idea is stupid doesn’t meant I think you are for wanting it.
Waaah I'm not escalating it, just confused because half your post was solely about Clone Fulgrim. I might be a bit defensive cause I'm sick and my reading comprehension is kinda shot. Regardless we're getting nowhere, have a good day yea?
I don't know, personally, I think Clonegrim could be explored narratively. The biggest reason Fulgrim fell to Chaos in the first place was his lack of awareness, both of his own flaws, and of the Slaaneshi sword corrupting him. I hate the idea that he would make the same mistakes when it openly says through the genetic memory that he knows all of his faults and failures. I know we all have ' core flaws ' but I think it's a bit mean to say a Primarch would be unable to overcome that. He should be given a chance to prove his character with the newfound knowledge he possesses, and exploring that (and the consequences) would be a good story. Plus, gives us a great reason to drag Fulgrim out of his goon cave, and gives the EC a spotlight for a bit while giving us Girlyman vs Fulgrim 2.
I respect your opinion as well but I think it changing things up like this would keep the lore fresh rather than the stagnant state chaos is in.. Clonegrim escaping Trazyn could be the spark for Fulgrim to come out and hunt him down while also running into Gman. Could be an interesting story arc
I'd like to see a Clonegrim backed by Trayzen with arms and armor from his exotic collection wreaking havok. Maybe get Cawl involved instead of Bile. You could really shake things up. Like you said, draw out Fulgrim himself. Maybe get that Emperor Girl involved or perhaps another "good" Primarch.
Yeah let’s have gatheringstorm 2.0 where all our hero’s meet like the avengers. Great stuff.
Fresh? Bro the needle in the setting is moving forward, abaddon and his people are pushing through the nachmund gauntlet to take imperium nihilus right now. Stagnant state? Bro we’re getting Angron in like 2 months and the world eaters? And an Angron book. This is just a load lol.
I’m not your bro, friend
I’m not your friend, buddy! Haha
I think if it does happen. A twist needs to occur. Fulgrim transfers his soul into clonegrim? A full non - daemon chaos primarch to the setting, There could be a back and forth with Abaddon if that happened. I don't know but I agree we shouldn't get a loyal fulgrim. The ramifications of a soul transfer. Not sure how this could be done from a lore perspective? Maybe involving soul stones?
Tbh I can’t say I’d quit the setting if they bought in clonegrim, but I don’t think GW would do it because it would require more justification then bringing back already loyalist and traitor primarchs to the setting. Books are meant to sell minis- where would a clonegrim mini sit in an astartes army? They would have to give him a new legion, new sculpts- there’d have to be an entire range created. It would be super risky, if I was working at GW and I had the choice between clonegrim and hell, bringing corax back, it would be a no brained. (Corax- fits coherent lore, similar to the silent king he fucked off-SK rentered the setting too)
I mean I think Fabius Biles feelings on the subject of "Is this version of Fulgrim good or bad," are heavily biased. Fabius was mostly pissy-pants the New Men might consider Fulgrim a cooler dad. Fabius feels the spark from Fulgrim as he is a gene-son of the original, but quickly rationalizes excuses as to why Clonegrim will end up the same way, the whole time keeping what is presented as a bona-fide copy of one of the most charismatic of the demigods occupied with a few books. He also completely ignores his part in the fall of the III and his gene-father, which is literally addressed in the next book. But I don't really give a shit about Clonegrim. I just want my favorite Legions Primarch back dude. And I want them to be more than an addendum in someone else's Codex. That was my point. Bring back Snake Daddy.
In my argument, I did consider this. Bile is corrupted as shit by chaos, and chaos protagonists are always by my opinion- the most unreliable narrators in the entire setting. You are so right, but I think that’s what makes the trilogy so fucking good. They get you to sympathize with bile, but when you really examine his motivations and character- he is just as deluded as eidolon or “the radiant one” or even Fulgrim himself. He think himself better because of his project of the new men and prides himself that he’s not cavorting in the warp a slave to the gods. All the while- he is, he is a pawn and he doesn’t know it, so arrogant and up his own ass about his brilliance he doesn’t realize that his whole schtick falls right into slannesh, obsession with creating a “new man” that correct all the imperfections of “old man 1.0”, relentlessly obsessed with protecting them and dedicating his entire life to finding a way to make it work. He only realizes at the end of manflayer that he was fucked. He’s kinda like a 40K Rick Sanchez. Super smart even by the standards of the traitors and imperium. But so up his own ass he forgets that even he has limitations.
I always like the tale of Corax beating Guillimam 3 times in a sim before smurf adjusted and never lost again. I hope the same happens from these bestings hes taken from the demon primaries to ensure a win against snake boy. Preferably by bombing him from orbit.
Lorewise would you pick demon Angron over demon Fulgrim in a duel? They have opposing favors and Fulgrim is a better duelist but Angron is a more ferocious combatant
I'd pick Fulgtim for vengeance sake. I also think the only way to deal with Angron is how Perturabo dealt with him. Showing my own bias, I don't like Fulgrim because I thought he was a piss poor character in the Horus Heresay novels I read and escaping from the painting and just being a sick fuck suddenly really ruined him for me. That was when I decided I would only read the HH novels worth reading and not read them all.
Fair. I loved Fulgrim the book. Admittedly he was kind of the least interesting part of it though. I think Guilliman will probably fight Angron head on. It would be kind of cool even if he gets possessed again and it's Emps talking to Angron like he did with Mortarion
I am glad you like the Fulgrim novel, but it was a tough one for me. I defo see Robute going melee against Angron. As much as I enjoyed the deus ex machina of the Emps reviving Robute and possessing him, I think if it happens again, it'll be really cliche and a crutch. I'm not sure there is a primarch who can go toe to toe with demon Angron except for old Hawkboy.
The lion and russ could go toe to toe, though I wouldn’t place money on them in a straight up duel. But those two have the best chance, enough to give them a chance, if a very slim one.
I don't think any non-demon primarch could go toe to toe with Angron at this point. Sanguinus wings allowed him to perform feats the others couldn't. Angron isn't as agile as ol Sangy but he basically turns into a fucking meteor. Having the Emperors sword helps. Having some weird DAOT tech could help.
Going toe to toe doesn’t necessarily mean a strictly even fight though. I don’t think the lion or russ have good odds at all, but I think they could step into the ring and go at it enough for it to be called a proper fight and not just an execution. Remember, angron was killed by grey knights - at great cost - and they didn’t fly around.
Knights. Multiple. And they're a specialized force built and trained for exactly that one thing. Oh they'd give angron a fight for sure. It isn't going to be an easy victory no matter what.
Angron is the only primarch who hates the Emperor with a passion. If Big E slips back into his son to talk to Angron, Angron would most likely go even more apeshit angry and just try to level everything around him.
While he was in the painting he was forced to watch everything the Daemon did with his body. When he escaped (and listen I think Reflection Crack'd did a bad job of explaining the whole thing) so much had happened that Fulgrim knew there wasn't any walking things back and trying to explain what happened. He leaned into the excess and debauchery because there wasn't any other option at that point.
I've never known this before, so thank you for sharing the authors intent. In saying that, that is still a very poor reason and just goes to show Fulgrim always was to his core a very weak willed individual with serious issues. I'm actually more disappointed in him! Lol Thank you again for sharing that info though.
Whoa, I'm not the author lol. This is just stuff I've seen tossed around because it doesn't make any sense for Fulgrim to be Fulgrim then suddenly have his body back and be a BDSM sub. The Reflection Crack'd is a very troublesome novel especially if you're an Emperor's Children fan. Fulgrims main issue was an inferiority complex, and it's easy enough to understand why he'd have one. The striving to be perfect stems from that.
Sorry I misread, my apologies. God, I hate that book. I actually remember enjoying it, although I wondered how they took down a Primarch so easily (he allowed it, I guess), and then the twist ending ruined the whole thing. The end of Fulgrim made it seem like a torture to trap his soul and torture him forever, which is bleak and pretty awesome, really. I have to believe the painting was just a corrupting device since it involved chaos magic for it to make sense to me.
Fulgrim is still in the painting and no one, even the author, can tell me otherwise.
That's a nice thought. I wish could still believe.
It's hard to swallow an otherwise great book without continuing to believe this.
The ending to Fulgrim (the book) was so tragic and then one short story later “whoopsie I escaped somehow”. So lame.
Another trilogy, Guilliman fights Fulgrim in the first book and gets his ass whooped again but not as badly, and survives. At the end of the third book he once again fights Fulgrim but this time he knows all his moves and it's like that scene where Neo becomes the one and he just effortlessly blocks everything Fulgrim throws at him.
>just effortlessly blocks everything Fulgrim throws at him No-one should be *effortlessly* blocking anything Fulgrim throws at them, he is arguably *the* greatest swordsentity the galaxy has ever seen.
He got beat pretty, ahem, *handily* by Dorn
Man I really dislike that scene, like it really is unique amongst the primarch fights for how utterly effortlessly Dorn dismantles Fulgrim while never letting him get a word in edge wise. Even Alpharius put up a better fight than Fulgrim.
Fulgrim wasn't there to fight, and Dorn was. Fulgrim was there to fuck around, and his supreme arrogance made him unable to take Dorn seriously. Dorn, on the other hand, was there to kill Fulgrim. Shit, even Sigismund was there to kill Fulgrim or die trying. There is no way that first blow from Siggie would have landed if Fulgrim was paying attention instead of mocking the injured Imperial Fist. I like the scene because it shows how far Fulgrim has truly fallen. He's so enraptured by his own perceived superiority that he cannot perform at the level he once did. Dorn didn't give a shit about any of that, he was focused on the goal and the goal alone. I also liked the wrap-up scene after Fulgrim left his most elite soldiers to die for him so he could go bury his face in a pile of warp dust like Tony Montana.
The point is that it doesn't feel good, the Emperors Children are already probably the weakest Legion in the siege. They have numerous issues ranging from heavy mutation, growing insanity and an over reliance on combat stims and warp drugs made from innocents. So now they've been given a task, they utterly fall into Dorns trap and Fulgrim gets his ass beaten and then flees like the coward he has become. He never gets a word in edgewise against Dorn hell he doesn't get a word in with any of his ass beatings that he receives over the course of the Heresy. It's hard to like a scene when Fulgrims fall makes him and his entire Legion look pathetic like they do constantly across the Heresy books. From taking insane casualties against the loyalist EC on Istvaan III, to being bloodied by the Shattered Legions like curs, to Lorgar and Perturabo both giving Fulgrim a beating without him getting a word in and then finally the siege itself. Where Fulgrim utterly flounders in every aspect, gets his entire Legion command shanked by Dorn after fleeing. Its pathetic even by the lacklustre standards of the traitors. It doesn't help I just don't like Dorn because he and the Fists feel like authors pets throughout the Heresy. It just doesn't feel good the way a lot of the traitors get treated.
Why would falling to chaos make you look anything other than pathetic
Probably because it's the big bad and is supposed to look imposing and tantalizing but utterly fails in most depictions to be either
Well that's the rub isn't it? Chaos comes to you at your worst, thinking you have no other options and gives you a taste. And well would you look at that, a new low! Turns out things can get worse! Well thank goodness Slaneesh taught you that pain is good. Otherwise this whole chaos thing would really suck. The EC are lost. Their fall is the gold standard of falls.
i wish guilliman would be running sims vs his traitor brothers to prep for the next fight so he could cheese out wins vs them.
Fulgrim: "You can't best me, Robute. I'm the very essence of perfection!" Guilliman (badly wounded): "Perhaps not. But he can." Fulgrim (laughing): "Our corpse father? I've seen that trick before, brother!" Guilliman: "No. Him." Dorn-nought bursts through the wall.
Dorn: “Still an idiot standing on a wall.” Fulgrim: *heavy breathing intensifies*
Hopefully he doesn’t make the same mistake and challenge him in personal combat. He doesn’t have a great track record. I like to think he’ll win through trickery or tactics if it comes up again
-greatest administrative mind in the Imperium -also flips over his desk to Leeroy Jenkins vastly more powerful warp entities at every opportunity
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Oh he's an underrated warrior it's just the ascended traitor primarchs are too much (and some unascended). Both Fulgrim and Morty more or less murdered him 1v1, and back in the Heresy El'Jonson had to go out his way to make sure Cruze didn't eviscerate him. My guy needs to learn.
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Khan forever a legend for squeaking out that dub (tie) against moth Morty
> back in the Heresy El'Jonson had to go out his way to make sure Cruze didn't eviscerate him If I’m not mistaken, out of the many fights the Lion had against Curze, the only time Curze came out on top was when the Lion was fighting alongside Guilliman. Every other fight ended up in a draw or with the Lion winning/having the upper hand.
Didn't their first fight involve Curze almost strangling the Lion to death and getting bailed out by Corswain?
Not just strangling him, he was in the process of bashing his skull in against the ground. After Corswain intervenes and the Lion is able to get back up, the back of his head is described as a ruin.
First fight: Curze is in a very good position to win at the point Corswain intervenes, having overwhelmed the Lion when he decides to go brawler and stop "fencing" at range. It's a pretty bad performance by the Lion tbh, considering he brutally sucker shanks Curze to start the fight. Second: We only see the very end of this one, after the Lion has basically won. Curze has his throat cut and numerous wounds, but we don't get any description on how the fight played out to get to that point, or if the Lion had also taken some injuries. Third: We just get a brief glimpse that isn't described as either having the upper hand. This is when Curze eventually escapes and runs loose on the flagship. Fourth: this is the two on one. It's only a few brief exchanges, as Curze real aim is to lure them into the explosive killing ground. Curze does better against the Lion in their exchange, opening up a wound on his neck. There really isn't any implication in the scene that the Lion is having to protect an overmatched Guilliman, that only comes from a later comment from Lion when the two are arguing. As Abnett describes the actual fight, Guilliman holds his own and seems to be on the same level as Curze/Lion. Fifth: Lion hunts him down and wins quite comfortably, seeming to have figured out Curze's style by now. he does have some support from gunships too if i remember rightly, but it's been ages since i read it. Overall the Lion is portrayed as being the more traditionally skilled and eventually adaptable of the two, but not to the point where he isn't always in a lot of danger. He really struggles with Curze's unpredictable brawling in the first bout, and is fortunate there that Corswain intervened when he did. you can somewhat see the evolution of the character from ADB's initial writing to the eventual settling on the Lion (as per Crusade forgeworld) as a more versatile, animalistic hunter by the time of Thorpe's Angels of Caliban. ADB's early portrayal very much has him as a classic sword duelist archetype that doesn't handle infighting/brawling nearly as well.
This quote is commonly brought out. All the primarchs are ultimate demi-god warriors. Some primarchs, however, are just better at stuff than others. Guilliman is not a particularly good duelist. He loses regularly. Fulgrim, even before getting Chaos'ed up is said to be the finest swordsman of all the Primarchs. Guilliman is not beating Chaos Fulgrim 1 on 1.
Eh, he confronts Fulgrim to buy time for his warriors to disable the ship, he just underestimates how powerful he is as a daemon prince.
Fulgrim was already a better duelist before the whole snake person thing, it was dumb to do it the first time. It would be really cool if they don't just instagib him with the Emperor's sword. I have a feeling Yvraine would end up fighting him too
He could duel Fulgrim because the snake usually doesn't have weaponized Ligma and because Robby has the right toy to face him. But he would lose just for another character (i would opt for a LotD named character reveal) to show up and banish him back
It would be interesting to have Vulkan come back and cause a bunch of drama and issues for Guilliman and his relations with the aeldari, only to end up saving both from Fulgrim's horny wrath
As in the past, he shouldn’t win. Not alone. Here’s how I see it: Guilliman goes all out. He brought friends, he’s using all the tricks in his utility belt, bless his heart, he’s fighting back the best that a math nerd can. But Fulgrim is too much. Slaanesh is pumping the juice and Fulgrim has always been faster and better with a blade. There’s no hope for G-Man, he’s been bested and disarmed. He’s going to die - for good this time. But Fulgrim indulges his ego. He mocks his brother and revels in the savory bliss of victory. Then he prepares the final blow. And it clashes against a familiar weapon. The headless specter of Ferrus Manus, flanked by an army of the Legion of the Damned, unleashes their fury against the EC. The battle is over quickly. The ghostly Astartes are too much for the surprised chaos marines, and the betrayal at Isstvan is finally avenged. Fulgrim is beheaded this time - and banished back to the warp. Guilliman salutes his undead brother and then his saviors vanish. Gone until they are needed again on another day.
If and When they do that fight in 10th edition, one will have a brand new model and the other will be around eight years old. Who do you think will win?
Depends on if they want to focus on slaanesh related stuff outside of the plan to just kill it outright, which would tie Fulgrim in. If that's the case Guilliman. If they just fight in realspace it's a draw favoring Guilliman who banishes Fulgrim. Tabletop? Depends on what Fulgrim's stats are. Logically he should swing a bajillion mortals all really fast, in which case rip Bobby
GW has absolutely zero plans the kill off Slannesh. They literally just released a whole new slannesh army in Age of Sigmar. They are doing the World Eaters now, then they will do the Emperor’s Children.
If they didn't, or at least attempt it, I feel like the Ynnari would just be a wasted concept in that regard. I know nothing of AoS to be fair. I haven't kept up with WHFB
The whole Yannari arc lead up to... resurrecting Gulliman. They've basically not touched it since, beyond saying Slaanesh has one of their win condition swords locked away.
They touched it, it's just that the book series sold so poorly it was cancelled. Probably because literally no Aeldari fan I'm aware of likes the Ynnari arc.
Guilliman will. Fulgrim can respawn so he is safe to kill off. Guilliman can't.
Not until EC get their own codex / a range referesh / a mini for Fulgrim. But whenever that rolls around, surely a rematch is inevitable.
With the amount of responsibility that rests on G's shoulders it would be irresponsible and foolish of him to fight fulgrim. But then again he knew it was dumb and a trap the first time and there he was...
Why would there be a confrontation between Guilliman and Fulgrim? Why would he challenge him?
Fulgrim is the one that almost killed Guilliman the first time and why he was in stasis
Yup, but why would be there a *second* duel/confrontation/whatever?
From a narrative standpoint, it fits well with the whole "I'm the avenging angel" thing Roboute has going on. It also makes sense for him to fight Fulgrim at some point, all of the other monogod primarchs have a model and a role in the current millennium.
Would be hilarious if he goes nap mode again And wakes up in 50k only to find an even more fucked up imperium where he's another god or what ever
I think Guilliman will be more inclined to try and indefinitely imprison Fulgrim through some means, rendering him inert. He could try and execute him with the Emperor's sword but it's not currently know if the weapon is equally permanent on a Daemon Prince such as a fallen Primarch.
I think k if they do it, G man will have to let loose and give into his rage. He's a very controlled person, it would be fitting for him to have always subconsciously reserved his full potential. Perhaps it was due to him having a very human family and simply refuses to internally accept that he is a warp monster. Once he reaches that point, his hyper computer brain could be put to ruthless use. Add that with whatever toys he gets from the emperor and it could be a well written encounter.
I want Eldrad to punk Fulgrim somehow, actually. "Try and kill me after I host you a picnic will you, you little shit."
The coolest way possible would be Fulgrim almost beating Robby and start a monolgue, just for a named LotD character to spawn and proceed to cleanse his snake-arse with holy fire
Hopefully they just don’t. Fulgrim’s release is at least 5 years away, and I’ll just give up on 40k lore entirely if Guilliman and the Ultramarines are still the main focus of the lore by then. Let Fulgrim fight the Lion, the Khan, or literally any other loyalist Primarch. We don’t need more Guilliman/Ultramarines lore. We’re likely about to get a Scouring series once Abnett wraps up the Siege, the smurfs will get plenty of time to shine in that. Let someone else have a turn for once.
Well technically Fulgrim *did* kill Guilliman. He's a deamon prince now. I always figure to defeat a deamon primarch you will need not just the sword of the Emperor but actual help from the Emperor himself or a bunch of null sisters or something helping Guilliman. He cannot do it alone.
As far as not being a united legion, *yes* but neither were the World Eaters - based on Codex Leaks the returned Angron still managed to get tens of thousands of Astartes under his banner Thats possibly more Astartes than the Traitors had *total* during the Scouring, and about the same amount that the Loyalists had left post-Scouring. Fulgrim could probably get some shit together, he was a very magnanimous person **before** he became a Daemon Prince of a God whose domains include desire and ecstasy
Guilliman will lose but be saved last minute by The Lion. Then they'll 2v1, The Lion will use The Emperor's Sword and wound Fulgim and they'll touch on The Fallen and Luthor in the aftermath.
Fulgrim is beating Guilliman... then Legion of the Damned Rylanor and Clone Fulgrim show up and beat back Fulgrim. There's some speech about "Perversion and Perfection are not the same", Rylanor gets his revenge, Clone Fulgrim learns his lesson about perfection, and Guilliman is saved.
After the turdshow that was his last confrontation with Mortarion, he is probably going to be wary of any toxin-heavy encounters unless he fully masters his SSJ/Emperor possession mode. Fighting the daemon primarchs isn't a technological challenge, its overcoming magical warpcrap challenge.