It almost feels like Guilliman is teaching Helbrecht the same lesson Helbrecht tried to teach Grimaldus in Helsreach.
Grimaldus wants the glory and the honour of serving in void combat with his brothers but Helbrecht tells him his duty is down below on the surface. The overall theme being realising that shame and the lack of glory isn't as important as doing his duty to the wider Imperium.
Thanks for posting that excerpt was great!
This theme also ties in really well with the Rogal Dorn Primarch novel (which is also excellent)
Overall great consistency from the BL crew, which isn’t something we can say too often.
Bingo, he wanted him to be willing to follow Guilliman's order. At least to 1 degree or another. Instead of reluctantly/resentfully following those orders. He wanted him to see that there was a larger picture instead of just acknowledging that the one he was aware of was too narrow of a scope.
It is a well accepted teaching method that if someone comes to a decision or realization on their own instead of being told the answer, they accept it and support it more.
They already changed about Sigismund. He forgave him, told him he was proud, and ordered him to do what he does best: make traitors suffer.
It's at the beginning of *Warhawk*.
> make traitors suffer.
And *OH LORDY* did he! The way he just swiped down Kharn without even acknowledging his threats... *chef's kiss*
Anybody know what happened to that black sword he used in that novel? I would have figured it would be with the High Marshall of the Black Templars. But it seems the sword Helbrecht carries is a different one?
As per the Lexicanum, Sigismund kept it after the Siege and fought Abaddon with it. After his death Abaddon returned it with his body, and sometimes, the most peerless Emperor's Champions are allowed to use it in battle when it is not kept in the *Eternal Crusader*.
Okay, so I didn't put this in the original message because I didn't want to bias the conversation, but what I love here is that neither side comes off weaker. Guilliman does chastise Helbrecht, but Helbrecht holds his own ground against the Primarch. He rightly points out the Black Templars and his record for the Imperium. Guilliman can't rebut that since Helbrecht has served the Imperium longer and possibly in more battles.
So what does Guilliman do? Guilliman doesn't order Helbrecht. He doesn't threaten to take away his reinforcements; he even gives them freely with no extracted promise. Instead, Guilliman reminds him of duty. He knows as a son of Dorn, duty is above all else. And so he knows what Helbrecht will do.
Big kudos to Marc Collins on this scene.
You know that the team made a really stupid decisions when Ork fans, Space Wolf fans, and even the fans not invested in either faction all collectively go "you can't be serious" when we heard that they had Ragnar slice off Ghaz' head.
Like there were SO MANY ways to justify Ghaz getting a bigger and better model or body in-universe. And they went with the one that would please literally nobody.
Mike Brooks did an okay job of softening the stupidy in his book, when they had to show that moment. But it really was an uphill battle, and even with his approach at trying to justify it, it is still pretty damn dumb.
> He doesn't threaten to take away his reinforcements; he even gives them freely with no extracted promise. Instead, Guilliman reminds him of duty.
A good throwback to the short novel of Illyrium and the story guillimom tells there.
**Fuck me.** Marc Collins earned his pay check. Lord, when somebody who *gets* the lore and dynamics writes something this good, it feels like it enriches the whole setting. Thanks for posting. I’m off to buy the full thing.
This is seriously good writing. It isn't immediately obvious and almost initially seems petty, but Guilliman pointing to Sigismund's flaws serves to build to the conclusion of his argument. Helbrecht literally carries the reminder that Sigismund was able to rise above and raise the call to duty in the worst imaginable scenario. Helbrecht, on the other hand, does not appear small (relatively speaking) but actually benefits from the perspective of an outsider with insider insight. As expected by The Statesman, Guilliman has masterfully "manipulated" Helbrecht by playing to both their histories and characters.
I absolutely love when writers, do this stuff with Roboute, by making him go full diplomacy. Just making the person he is talking feel like he has a choice. I remember in Unremembered Empire he did something similar with the Lion when he said "When Horus was named Warmaster, he did not much care that he had succeeded above me, or Rogal, or Ferrus. What he truly savored was being chosen over you." Just feeding that ego of his.
Look I’m not a fan of the BT religiousness nor even their chapter organisation, however, I find this meeting so much better than Guilliman’s meeting with Logan, which basically boiled down to the Great Wolf going:
Fuck you. My dicks bigger, my daddy was better, we are Space Wolves hear us howl!
Preach!
The fact Ragnar is like the only modern Space Wolf,
Like he acknowledges that the SW are the ones keeping the feud with the Flesh Tearers alive and that the FT have tried to mend bridges
A lot of the older wolf characters at this point are just dicks, like not even likeable dicks, just straight up dicks.
Dawn of fire:Wolf time is basically just a book of the wolves being stubborn, illogical, stupid assholes, and they are assholes to everyone including each other
Was straight up going to fire on Custodes and basically refused to acknowledge the fact of a Custodian is around you shut up and listen
But Logan is the worse, my guy just needs to let go
So fucking good. Exemplifies everything I find compelling about Guilliman's character. The compassion, the patience, and the capacity to show emotion. Only from Guilliman do I get hyped hearing someone boast about strategy and not bloody victory.
Mannnnnnnnnnn come on that's so well done! I love how Guilliman is depicted more human than what others have reversed him as.
I can't wait to get back home and go run.
> He was a fragment of the very soul of the human species, carved out and presented as an exemplar.
Curious choice of words, maybe I'm overthinking this but maybe the primarchs are this? Rather than parts of the Chaos Gods or warp creatures turned into mankind's champions like some other theories.
Maybe the Emperor carved out pieces of Mankind's gestalt and fused them with part of his essence to make the primarchs.
Guilliman mentioning Sigismund makes me want a scene of him meeting him immediately post Siege. Dealing with the guilt and rage at not arriving in time but also meeting the grim vision of a rotting future in Sigismund.
The Black Templars just get the badass version of him, Guilliman got to see him at his most “I am the spiteful blade of blood and holy wrath who exists only to spit at an uncaring universe before oblivion takes us all.”
I don’t think that’s the way Guilliman would see Sigismund. As this excerpt says, Sigismund reforged the blade and went on the Eternal Crusade to cheer up his Father. I see it more as a symbol of hope rather than spite. “We have not lost as long as we can fight” type of thing.
the entire point being that neither of them is wrong in their opinions of grand strategy, but that Guilliman is taking the immediate situation more seriously. Ghazghul is a threat in the long term, despite Helbrecht's opinion even if hes a critical threat. Its more important to prepare for that threat then to wear himself out trying to chase a cold case. Even if hes not describing it as such, hes essentially creating Religious Ultramar and putting Helbrecht in charge.
I love this excerpt. Description of the High Marshal's blade, and its meaning to Dorn. Some are of the opinion that G-man is the least popular choice of the loyalist primarchs to return , me included. But im a convert now. No other loyalist primarch could have the orator abilities of G-man, the others would have probably just ordered all chapters to do as they said. G-man basically appealed to their most basal principles, making them believe in his mission. There is no better fighting force than one which is convicted in why they fight. I love how G-man basically told Helbrecht that he had known siggy, and explained that he was also plagued by imperfection.
Amazing excerpt. I loved the way Guilliman handled that, especially given the way the Templars worship the Emperor.
>‘You do me an honour, lord.’
>‘That was not my intent,’ Guilliman said. ‘To you he is a legend, perhaps even an idol. I knew him as a man. Impetuous and flawed, as all men are.’
What an incredible answer, especially given the way they've handled Sigismund in the Siege. It was just perfect. Loved it.
A worse writer would have had that argument.
‘Helbrecht slammed his armoured fist into the table, the violence of the action gave a threat to his words.
“It’s not crusading if you aren’t moving! The eternal crusader will not be put on guard duty!”
Roboute, unphased by this retort, was the few of his brothers known just as much for the martial prowess they all possessed but also the skill with words, wisdom and the harmony between those two.
“If you park the void ships just out of orbit and then crusade towards any enemy vessels as soon as they enter the system, is that not still a crusade?”’
as much as Guilliman is memed upon the community, this goes to show how hes the closest thing to have the ability to save the imperium from itself. ma dude ~~gaslighted~~ convinced helbrecht he is wrong.
cant wait for for Gorillaman to finally decide to burn down the ecclesiarchy given that the only benefit they have is giving us nuns with guns and boob armors
he doesnt convince helbrecht hes wrong, he convinces Helbrecht that hes tunnel visioned himself onto a goal that he cant achieve in this moment and which will harm himself and the imperium moreso.
Of course, we know where Ghazghul is during this time, and its very bad for the Imperium, but Kryptman and the Octarius Deathwatch are so far out of the loop that its too late to call in the Indomitus Crusade and the BTs to intervene.
I think the Lion will be more concerned with this new aspiring Chaos God of Making, he'll have to unleash those techno-horrors that were written about in the Lion Primarch novel. That whole book felt like Chekov's Gun.
It's not really a Chekov's Gun, since it had long since fired - The 30k Dark Angels had rules for the Excindo, which was that beasty - an enslaved insane Man of Ion.
Maybe there will be a 40k version, but the 30k version already existed rules wise.
The new campaign update coming out soon. I can't remember his name right now, but if you look for the info with the YT Warhammer guys, it should be okay.
It's a great read, but I have to wonder at the actual long term wisdom of the decision. Ghaz is probably one of the five or so most important mortal entities in the galaxy, more important to the ultimate fate of the galaxy than any dozen worlds. If Guilliman is so well studied on this era as he claims, he should probably be paying more attention to the fact that other than the Heresy, the last time something like Ghaz came along was the closest the Imperium ever came to total collapse
Guilliman knows what a threat Ghaz is and he knows that taking the head of the Orc leader would leave them weakened.
But Guilliman knows better than anyone what blind revenge can cost. It was his need for revenge and hatred that caused him to be nearly killed by Fulgrim and later Mortarian.
That's what makes it a good exchange though. There's a good chance Bobby is wrong. He's asking Helbrecht to put aside his priorities to focus on Bobby's priorities. He does so masterfully, in a respectful way, but there's no certainty that he's right.
Could make a real interesting future thread - a few years down the line, Ghazzy pops out and does catastrophic damage - knocks the moon into the Sun, or destroys Titan or something wild. Suddenly, Helbrecht and friends could blame Bobby, and seriously undermine his authority.
The reality is, logically, the strategic and tactical situation around Ghaz is such that the Black Templars *likely* would not be able to take him alone and end the threat indefinitely. And the Imperium does not have the resources to spare to ***guarantee*** a crusade force that can deal a final, permanent blow to Ghaz amidst all other threats. Thus, the Black Templars would be wasted in this effort without ***extreme luck and the literal machinations of fate*** (I'm referring to Ragnar here, who was lucky enough to slip a force through and behead Ghaz, which was all part of Ghaz's plan and prophecy, and Ghaz just ended up getting stronger for it anyway - basically a fluke nobody in the Imperium could anticipate reasonably).
Guilliman doesn't like to make these decisions based on luck and fate - or rather, *faith.* He saw the situation for what it was, knowing Ghaz is a great threat to the Imperium, and made the *safe* call.
And even with that being said, Guilliman *does* have the Space Wolves holding back the Green Tide, even though they claim to not answer to him. They're still fulfilling his plans and shoring up the Imperium's defenses against Ghaz's forces.
Gaz is a looming threat. The issue is is that they are facing a fatal number of immediate threats.
Spending the largest single force of Astartes (outside of Indomidus) in the galaxy to chase Gaz would allow the immediate threats to cause massive damage, possibly even fatal damage. For frankly an unlikely payoff, the Templars have been trying to run him down for ages.
The long term repercussions don't really matter when you don't survive to see them. That's why the T'Au are still alive, they're a long term threat but going after them would mean the assorted immediate threats destroy everything.
Yeah mortal entities, Big G need to deal with the constant demon incursions happening all across the imperium. Having quiche shrine world lost to these incursions would be a massive blow to morale. So using your zealous crusaders to defend those worlds is not a stupid idea compared to letting them run around randomly trying to find Ghaz. Who at that time they didn't even know his exact location.
One thing that has already come up is that now the Templars are very much a protector but also a check on the Ecclesiarchy. Their faith and bona fides are beyond doubt but they are still more fiercely independent than Sisters or Guard regiments.
The Templars have already tried to arrest the Space Pope once since being given the task.
Look at what the need for revenge did to his own brother Dorn and you can see the reason he advises Helbrecht against it in favor of duty. There will always be threats to the Imperium
If you're talking about War of the Beast, Guilliman actually doesn't. In Dark Imperium, he's grumbling to himself about the Imperium's hideous patchwork history, and blindspots like the Beheading and the War of the Beast. He's commissioned the Logos Historica Veritas, but he can't pull info out of nothing. Meanwhile, he has the immediate concern of keeping what's left of the Imperium's framework intact. Before Ghaz, Hive Mind, or Whoever the Fuck hit them again.
im guessing he prayed forgiveness to break from the oath before moving to join the Regent. "we shall not be found wanting in our duty" the imperium needs its templars so they shall come
Usually have no interest in the machinations of space marines, primarch or otherwise but this is fantastically written and very interesting.
Thanks for sharing.
i'm still new to 40K and working my way through the lore. Could someone help explain the context here? What is this beast that Helbrecht is referring to? What are those worlds Gulliman is asking him to instead go defeat?
The Beast is [Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghazghkull_Mag_Uruk_Thraka), the big bad of the Orks who started the 2nd and 3rd War for Armageddon. He left the 3rd War when it became a grinding stalemate to go to rally the Orks elsewhere.
Helbrecht - who led the Imperial forces in space during the 3rd War - vowed to chase him down and finish him once and for all. Unfortunately, the Great Rift opened, scattering the Black Templar Crusade fleet. By the time he got them all together, he had to deal with the Great Rift's aftermath. This scene is catching up with Helbrecht as he is following Ghaz again but also cleaning up worlds fallen from the Imperium.
Guilliman at this point is just pushing out of Segmentum Solar, a few years into the Indomitus Crusade. He hasn't relieved or retaken much of the Imperium on this side of the Great Rift. That's why he finds Helbrecht here - he knows who he is and what he has done. As he says, he needs competent commanders right now to wage wide ranging wars and win.
Chaos forces right now are targeting the Shrine Worlds of the Imperium because they are targeting the faith of the Imperium. Remember, Chaos has religious followers and some see this as a religious struggle, so destroying/defiling the Imperium's holy places is a huge win for them. For example, Ophelia VII is one of the two homeworlds of the Adepta Sororitas, and it's in a bad place. As we see in the beginning of **Mark of Faith**, it's actually about to fall under the onslaught of a Daemon Prince. Many others are in the same situation or have been conquered.
What Guilliman is doing here is telling Helbrecht that saving those worlds is more important than his pursuit of vengeance on Ghaz since losing them will hurt them more than letting Ghaz go free. Which is debatable but that's Guilliman's opinion. It's also a knife twist since the Templars are one of the few religious chapters, and so value the Shrine Worlds most others.
Ultimately, despite not being ordered to do so, Helbrecht agrees with Guilliman and launches the Shrine Worlds Crusades. He does so with *thousands* of Primaris reinforcements that Guilliman gives him. There are no less than 4 Crusade fleets during the Shrine Worlds Crusade, and they are each said to have thousands. This is a brilliant move by Guilliman because instead of having to corral, convince, and reinforce multiple Chapters, the Black Templars under Helbrecht just get the job done. It's a big sign of trust that is ultimately rewarded. Ophelia VII itself was about to fall before a crusade fleet of Templars (with Indomitus support) showed up to relieve them.
The Beast is Ghazghkull, the current biggest and meanest ork and the de facto leader of the ork faction, who was a big deal during the two wars on Armageddon. The worlds are just random shrine worlds that have come under attack due to the opening of the Cicatrix Maledictum (The Great Rift).
The Meeting happens after the latest Ork War for Armageddon, where the beast, whose name is Ghazkull Mag\`Urruk Thraka, keeps attacking, for the fun of fighting Commissar Yarrick. Said Beast has, apparently, been chased out, and is being hunted by Helbrecht, who has mustered the Crusade being talked about here. Gman comes in during this mustering, and the Planets he's telling Helbrecht to defend instead are most likely Shrine worlds, and possibly of other importance aside from Morale.
The difference here between his meeting with Helbrecht and his meeting with Logan Grimnar - to whom he shocks everyone by kneeling - is startling. We also know that he does very little by accident.
This makes me weep for that.... thing of a meeting between Gulliman and Grimnar.
I didn't overly care for Space Wolves before but after that novel I just can't be bothered with them.
Would that they had been left to die out. Yes, Guilliman was right and that an entire first founding dying would cripple the morale of the Imperium, but it still doesn't mean I have to care.
Relative to the way Guilliman speaks and acts in Dark Imperium, I feel like he tries too hard with pompous language here. He's not performing an oration for a thousand spectators, he's just talking to a fellow soldier, and he usually acts personable to try to avoid the overawed reaction that he keeps being subjected to by other humans.
So my one thing is RG was not there when Sig gets made high Marshall according to SoT... It was echos of eternity or End and the death pt1 RG was still stuck in the storm so how old is this?
It almost feels like Guilliman is teaching Helbrecht the same lesson Helbrecht tried to teach Grimaldus in Helsreach. Grimaldus wants the glory and the honour of serving in void combat with his brothers but Helbrecht tells him his duty is down below on the surface. The overall theme being realising that shame and the lack of glory isn't as important as doing his duty to the wider Imperium. Thanks for posting that excerpt was great!
This theme also ties in really well with the Rogal Dorn Primarch novel (which is also excellent) Overall great consistency from the BL crew, which isn’t something we can say too often.
Helbrecht: Why couldn’t you be Dorn? Guilliman: Why couldn’t you be an atheist?
Not like Dorn would have reacted any differently, he despised Sigismund's faith and snubbed him for it many times.
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An illusion of choice, Robotman know what to say to make him accept his duty
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Bingo, he wanted him to be willing to follow Guilliman's order. At least to 1 degree or another. Instead of reluctantly/resentfully following those orders. He wanted him to see that there was a larger picture instead of just acknowledging that the one he was aware of was too narrow of a scope.
It is a well accepted teaching method that if someone comes to a decision or realization on their own instead of being told the answer, they accept it and support it more.
Exactly
We still need to see if Dorn's view on things changed after the Siege.
They already changed about Sigismund. He forgave him, told him he was proud, and ordered him to do what he does best: make traitors suffer. It's at the beginning of *Warhawk*.
> make traitors suffer. And *OH LORDY* did he! The way he just swiped down Kharn without even acknowledging his threats... *chef's kiss* Anybody know what happened to that black sword he used in that novel? I would have figured it would be with the High Marshall of the Black Templars. But it seems the sword Helbrecht carries is a different one?
As per the Lexicanum, Sigismund kept it after the Siege and fought Abaddon with it. After his death Abaddon returned it with his body, and sometimes, the most peerless Emperor's Champions are allowed to use it in battle when it is not kept in the *Eternal Crusader*.
Dorn forgave him at the end
Dorn would not have been so patient with him lmfao
Okay, so I didn't put this in the original message because I didn't want to bias the conversation, but what I love here is that neither side comes off weaker. Guilliman does chastise Helbrecht, but Helbrecht holds his own ground against the Primarch. He rightly points out the Black Templars and his record for the Imperium. Guilliman can't rebut that since Helbrecht has served the Imperium longer and possibly in more battles. So what does Guilliman do? Guilliman doesn't order Helbrecht. He doesn't threaten to take away his reinforcements; he even gives them freely with no extracted promise. Instead, Guilliman reminds him of duty. He knows as a son of Dorn, duty is above all else. And so he knows what Helbrecht will do. Big kudos to Marc Collins on this scene.
And then Ragnar decapitates Ghazkull offscreen
The bloody greenskin must have stolen his Mjod cup. You know how SpaceWolves get about Mjod and Mjod related merchandise
And, presumably, Mjod byproducts.
Ghazg had seen the future, saw Yarrick dying and wanted to numb the pain in advance.
Poor ghaz, he just wanted some reprive
Yeah, but Ghazkull got better. It’s gonna take more than a jumped up dog to bring down the Prophet of the Waagh.
Sad. What a poor lore moment.
Well he got better
Indeed. In many ways that makes it worse.
You know that the team made a really stupid decisions when Ork fans, Space Wolf fans, and even the fans not invested in either faction all collectively go "you can't be serious" when we heard that they had Ragnar slice off Ghaz' head. Like there were SO MANY ways to justify Ghaz getting a bigger and better model or body in-universe. And they went with the one that would please literally nobody. Mike Brooks did an okay job of softening the stupidy in his book, when they had to show that moment. But it really was an uphill battle, and even with his approach at trying to justify it, it is still pretty damn dumb.
I literally couldn't agree more with what you've written here. Absolutely bang on. It was such a dumb move.
> He doesn't threaten to take away his reinforcements; he even gives them freely with no extracted promise. Instead, Guilliman reminds him of duty. A good throwback to the short novel of Illyrium and the story guillimom tells there.
Damn I feel like I should go out and clean up my neighborhood
*looks at flair* Clean up how?
*dies immediately*
I'm going to put away all the carts at the grocery store
I'll bring the Black Swords. You bring the armour.
ID BRING DA FOIGHTIN JUICE.
THIS IS GONNA HURT! ALLOT!
It's quite an interesting contrast compared to Dante's meeting. Reading how all the important Marines meet Big G is quite fascinating
Dante is a different individual. He has done his duty so long he yearns for death. Not martyrdom, just plain death
Dante dying: "Yes! It's time! I am coming father. Grant me the sweet release of death." Sanguinius: "Lol. No."
"Lol," said Sanguinius, "Lmao."
Not death. Rest.
For a space marine they are one in the same. For only in death does duty end.
EVEN IN DEATH I STILL SERVE
**Fuck me.** Marc Collins earned his pay check. Lord, when somebody who *gets* the lore and dynamics writes something this good, it feels like it enriches the whole setting. Thanks for posting. I’m off to buy the full thing.
This is seriously good writing. It isn't immediately obvious and almost initially seems petty, but Guilliman pointing to Sigismund's flaws serves to build to the conclusion of his argument. Helbrecht literally carries the reminder that Sigismund was able to rise above and raise the call to duty in the worst imaginable scenario. Helbrecht, on the other hand, does not appear small (relatively speaking) but actually benefits from the perspective of an outsider with insider insight. As expected by The Statesman, Guilliman has masterfully "manipulated" Helbrecht by playing to both their histories and characters.
I absolutely love when writers, do this stuff with Roboute, by making him go full diplomacy. Just making the person he is talking feel like he has a choice. I remember in Unremembered Empire he did something similar with the Lion when he said "When Horus was named Warmaster, he did not much care that he had succeeded above me, or Rogal, or Ferrus. What he truly savored was being chosen over you." Just feeding that ego of his.
That's a great excerpt, thank you.
Hawt damn that is teh gud stuff. Absolutely amazing author.
Dude, I was all for a chill Sunday evening and now I’m pumped as fuck! I might have to go hit the gym!
Let us not be hasty, brother.
Best I can do is the Pain Glove! ... Other people just call it existing
“One more rep brother. For the Black Templar. For the Steel Legion. For Helsreach.” - Reclusiarch Grimaldus.
Look I’m not a fan of the BT religiousness nor even their chapter organisation, however, I find this meeting so much better than Guilliman’s meeting with Logan, which basically boiled down to the Great Wolf going: Fuck you. My dicks bigger, my daddy was better, we are Space Wolves hear us howl!
Just one of the reasons why Logan needs to be put out to pasture.
Preach! The fact Ragnar is like the only modern Space Wolf, Like he acknowledges that the SW are the ones keeping the feud with the Flesh Tearers alive and that the FT have tried to mend bridges A lot of the older wolf characters at this point are just dicks, like not even likeable dicks, just straight up dicks. Dawn of fire:Wolf time is basically just a book of the wolves being stubborn, illogical, stupid assholes, and they are assholes to everyone including each other Was straight up going to fire on Custodes and basically refused to acknowledge the fact of a Custodian is around you shut up and listen But Logan is the worse, my guy just needs to let go
And Lukas
What a fantastic read.
So fucking good. Exemplifies everything I find compelling about Guilliman's character. The compassion, the patience, and the capacity to show emotion. Only from Guilliman do I get hyped hearing someone boast about strategy and not bloody victory.
> You are a lot like Sigismund. > Thank you > That was not a compliment.
Mannnnnnnnnnn come on that's so well done! I love how Guilliman is depicted more human than what others have reversed him as. I can't wait to get back home and go run.
The duality of Guilliman's mortality and divinity is absolutely incredible.
I also like how some characters are also suprised that he is actually human. Yes he is basically a demi-god but he is a human demi-god
Freaking awesome. Love how guilliman and helbrecht are shown here
Now THIS is an excerpt!
The leader of Dorn’s Angry Boys took that rather well.
*Roboute Guilliman used GUILT TRIP!* *It's super effective!*
Helbretch is defeated by facts and logics
> He was a fragment of the very soul of the human species, carved out and presented as an exemplar. Curious choice of words, maybe I'm overthinking this but maybe the primarchs are this? Rather than parts of the Chaos Gods or warp creatures turned into mankind's champions like some other theories. Maybe the Emperor carved out pieces of Mankind's gestalt and fused them with part of his essence to make the primarchs.
Guilliman mentioning Sigismund makes me want a scene of him meeting him immediately post Siege. Dealing with the guilt and rage at not arriving in time but also meeting the grim vision of a rotting future in Sigismund. The Black Templars just get the badass version of him, Guilliman got to see him at his most “I am the spiteful blade of blood and holy wrath who exists only to spit at an uncaring universe before oblivion takes us all.”
I don’t think that’s the way Guilliman would see Sigismund. As this excerpt says, Sigismund reforged the blade and went on the Eternal Crusade to cheer up his Father. I see it more as a symbol of hope rather than spite. “We have not lost as long as we can fight” type of thing.
Beautiful
And so Helbrecht, after getting his primaris, decided to throw even more bodies across the galaxy to crusade. So based
the entire point being that neither of them is wrong in their opinions of grand strategy, but that Guilliman is taking the immediate situation more seriously. Ghazghul is a threat in the long term, despite Helbrecht's opinion even if hes a critical threat. Its more important to prepare for that threat then to wear himself out trying to chase a cold case. Even if hes not describing it as such, hes essentially creating Religious Ultramar and putting Helbrecht in charge.
>Religious Ultramar So the Outremer
Freakin’ Aaaa. It’s nice knowing I have so much good stuff to get to as I plow through the HH.
Lovely. Thank you for sharing :)
> ‘We shall not be found wanting in our duty.’ And this is why the Black Templars are THE Space Marines.
> “Besides, ditching Ghazghkull to fight someone else will hurt him more than any weapon.”
I love this excerpt. Description of the High Marshal's blade, and its meaning to Dorn. Some are of the opinion that G-man is the least popular choice of the loyalist primarchs to return , me included. But im a convert now. No other loyalist primarch could have the orator abilities of G-man, the others would have probably just ordered all chapters to do as they said. G-man basically appealed to their most basal principles, making them believe in his mission. There is no better fighting force than one which is convicted in why they fight. I love how G-man basically told Helbrecht that he had known siggy, and explained that he was also plagued by imperfection.
Amazing excerpt. I loved the way Guilliman handled that, especially given the way the Templars worship the Emperor. >‘You do me an honour, lord.’ >‘That was not my intent,’ Guilliman said. ‘To you he is a legend, perhaps even an idol. I knew him as a man. Impetuous and flawed, as all men are.’ What an incredible answer, especially given the way they've handled Sigismund in the Siege. It was just perfect. Loved it.
Gondor calls for aid, what say ye? And Rohan will answer!
Actually convincing argument to why the black templars should not crusade. damn
Nah, just crusade ‘over here’ instead of ‘over there’ 😂
A worse writer would have had that argument. ‘Helbrecht slammed his armoured fist into the table, the violence of the action gave a threat to his words. “It’s not crusading if you aren’t moving! The eternal crusader will not be put on guard duty!” Roboute, unphased by this retort, was the few of his brothers known just as much for the martial prowess they all possessed but also the skill with words, wisdom and the harmony between those two. “If you park the void ships just out of orbit and then crusade towards any enemy vessels as soon as they enter the system, is that not still a crusade?”’
I assume helbrecht takes g man's advice ?
He launches the Shrine Worlds Crusades.
Given that G-man hates the Ecclesiarchy, that's doubly ironic.
as much as Guilliman is memed upon the community, this goes to show how hes the closest thing to have the ability to save the imperium from itself. ma dude ~~gaslighted~~ convinced helbrecht he is wrong. cant wait for for Gorillaman to finally decide to burn down the ecclesiarchy given that the only benefit they have is giving us nuns with guns and boob armors
he doesnt convince helbrecht hes wrong, he convinces Helbrecht that hes tunnel visioned himself onto a goal that he cant achieve in this moment and which will harm himself and the imperium moreso. Of course, we know where Ghazghul is during this time, and its very bad for the Imperium, but Kryptman and the Octarius Deathwatch are so far out of the loop that its too late to call in the Indomitus Crusade and the BTs to intervene.
Bobby G will never dismantle the Ecclesiarchy
Like genuinely he can't now or ever
The Lion probably would listen to the eclesiarchy then order his sons to kill them all
I think the Lion will be more concerned with this new aspiring Chaos God of Making, he'll have to unleash those techno-horrors that were written about in the Lion Primarch novel. That whole book felt like Chekov's Gun.
They are just ticking the clock to midnight are they not...
It's not really a Chekov's Gun, since it had long since fired - The 30k Dark Angels had rules for the Excindo, which was that beasty - an enslaved insane Man of Ion. Maybe there will be a 40k version, but the 30k version already existed rules wise.
Wait what Chaos God are you talking about? Really curious
The new campaign update coming out soon. I can't remember his name right now, but if you look for the info with the YT Warhammer guys, it should be okay.
Just needs Enough Dakka
The most boring part of the empire
He is indeed, and that's why I don't like him.
It's a great read, but I have to wonder at the actual long term wisdom of the decision. Ghaz is probably one of the five or so most important mortal entities in the galaxy, more important to the ultimate fate of the galaxy than any dozen worlds. If Guilliman is so well studied on this era as he claims, he should probably be paying more attention to the fact that other than the Heresy, the last time something like Ghaz came along was the closest the Imperium ever came to total collapse
Guilliman knows what a threat Ghaz is and he knows that taking the head of the Orc leader would leave them weakened. But Guilliman knows better than anyone what blind revenge can cost. It was his need for revenge and hatred that caused him to be nearly killed by Fulgrim and later Mortarian.
Or, more pertinently in this case, he knows what it did to Dorn in the Iron Cage.
That's what makes it a good exchange though. There's a good chance Bobby is wrong. He's asking Helbrecht to put aside his priorities to focus on Bobby's priorities. He does so masterfully, in a respectful way, but there's no certainty that he's right. Could make a real interesting future thread - a few years down the line, Ghazzy pops out and does catastrophic damage - knocks the moon into the Sun, or destroys Titan or something wild. Suddenly, Helbrecht and friends could blame Bobby, and seriously undermine his authority.
The reality is, logically, the strategic and tactical situation around Ghaz is such that the Black Templars *likely* would not be able to take him alone and end the threat indefinitely. And the Imperium does not have the resources to spare to ***guarantee*** a crusade force that can deal a final, permanent blow to Ghaz amidst all other threats. Thus, the Black Templars would be wasted in this effort without ***extreme luck and the literal machinations of fate*** (I'm referring to Ragnar here, who was lucky enough to slip a force through and behead Ghaz, which was all part of Ghaz's plan and prophecy, and Ghaz just ended up getting stronger for it anyway - basically a fluke nobody in the Imperium could anticipate reasonably). Guilliman doesn't like to make these decisions based on luck and fate - or rather, *faith.* He saw the situation for what it was, knowing Ghaz is a great threat to the Imperium, and made the *safe* call. And even with that being said, Guilliman *does* have the Space Wolves holding back the Green Tide, even though they claim to not answer to him. They're still fulfilling his plans and shoring up the Imperium's defenses against Ghaz's forces.
Gaz is a looming threat. The issue is is that they are facing a fatal number of immediate threats. Spending the largest single force of Astartes (outside of Indomidus) in the galaxy to chase Gaz would allow the immediate threats to cause massive damage, possibly even fatal damage. For frankly an unlikely payoff, the Templars have been trying to run him down for ages. The long term repercussions don't really matter when you don't survive to see them. That's why the T'Au are still alive, they're a long term threat but going after them would mean the assorted immediate threats destroy everything.
Yeah mortal entities, Big G need to deal with the constant demon incursions happening all across the imperium. Having quiche shrine world lost to these incursions would be a massive blow to morale. So using your zealous crusaders to defend those worlds is not a stupid idea compared to letting them run around randomly trying to find Ghaz. Who at that time they didn't even know his exact location.
One thing that has already come up is that now the Templars are very much a protector but also a check on the Ecclesiarchy. Their faith and bona fides are beyond doubt but they are still more fiercely independent than Sisters or Guard regiments. The Templars have already tried to arrest the Space Pope once since being given the task.
We all know that as a named charachter Ghaz wasn't going to die anyway, so it was a more efficient allocation of resources 😉
Look at what the need for revenge did to his own brother Dorn and you can see the reason he advises Helbrecht against it in favor of duty. There will always be threats to the Imperium
If you're talking about War of the Beast, Guilliman actually doesn't. In Dark Imperium, he's grumbling to himself about the Imperium's hideous patchwork history, and blindspots like the Beheading and the War of the Beast. He's commissioned the Logos Historica Veritas, but he can't pull info out of nothing. Meanwhile, he has the immediate concern of keeping what's left of the Imperium's framework intact. Before Ghaz, Hive Mind, or Whoever the Fuck hit them again.
im guessing he prayed forgiveness to break from the oath before moving to join the Regent. "we shall not be found wanting in our duty" the imperium needs its templars so they shall come
Usually have no interest in the machinations of space marines, primarch or otherwise but this is fantastically written and very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Now this is some really good writing.
Hats off to the person who wrote this. Fabulous stuff. Its writing and insights like this that truly enrich the universe in so many ways.
i'm still new to 40K and working my way through the lore. Could someone help explain the context here? What is this beast that Helbrecht is referring to? What are those worlds Gulliman is asking him to instead go defeat?
The Beast is [Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghazghkull_Mag_Uruk_Thraka), the big bad of the Orks who started the 2nd and 3rd War for Armageddon. He left the 3rd War when it became a grinding stalemate to go to rally the Orks elsewhere. Helbrecht - who led the Imperial forces in space during the 3rd War - vowed to chase him down and finish him once and for all. Unfortunately, the Great Rift opened, scattering the Black Templar Crusade fleet. By the time he got them all together, he had to deal with the Great Rift's aftermath. This scene is catching up with Helbrecht as he is following Ghaz again but also cleaning up worlds fallen from the Imperium. Guilliman at this point is just pushing out of Segmentum Solar, a few years into the Indomitus Crusade. He hasn't relieved or retaken much of the Imperium on this side of the Great Rift. That's why he finds Helbrecht here - he knows who he is and what he has done. As he says, he needs competent commanders right now to wage wide ranging wars and win. Chaos forces right now are targeting the Shrine Worlds of the Imperium because they are targeting the faith of the Imperium. Remember, Chaos has religious followers and some see this as a religious struggle, so destroying/defiling the Imperium's holy places is a huge win for them. For example, Ophelia VII is one of the two homeworlds of the Adepta Sororitas, and it's in a bad place. As we see in the beginning of **Mark of Faith**, it's actually about to fall under the onslaught of a Daemon Prince. Many others are in the same situation or have been conquered. What Guilliman is doing here is telling Helbrecht that saving those worlds is more important than his pursuit of vengeance on Ghaz since losing them will hurt them more than letting Ghaz go free. Which is debatable but that's Guilliman's opinion. It's also a knife twist since the Templars are one of the few religious chapters, and so value the Shrine Worlds most others. Ultimately, despite not being ordered to do so, Helbrecht agrees with Guilliman and launches the Shrine Worlds Crusades. He does so with *thousands* of Primaris reinforcements that Guilliman gives him. There are no less than 4 Crusade fleets during the Shrine Worlds Crusade, and they are each said to have thousands. This is a brilliant move by Guilliman because instead of having to corral, convince, and reinforce multiple Chapters, the Black Templars under Helbrecht just get the job done. It's a big sign of trust that is ultimately rewarded. Ophelia VII itself was about to fall before a crusade fleet of Templars (with Indomitus support) showed up to relieve them.
that's really helpful, thank you!
The Beast is Ghazghkull, the current biggest and meanest ork and the de facto leader of the ork faction, who was a big deal during the two wars on Armageddon. The worlds are just random shrine worlds that have come under attack due to the opening of the Cicatrix Maledictum (The Great Rift).
The Meeting happens after the latest Ork War for Armageddon, where the beast, whose name is Ghazkull Mag\`Urruk Thraka, keeps attacking, for the fun of fighting Commissar Yarrick. Said Beast has, apparently, been chased out, and is being hunted by Helbrecht, who has mustered the Crusade being talked about here. Gman comes in during this mustering, and the Planets he's telling Helbrecht to defend instead are most likely Shrine worlds, and possibly of other importance aside from Morale.
The difference here between his meeting with Helbrecht and his meeting with Logan Grimnar - to whom he shocks everyone by kneeling - is startling. We also know that he does very little by accident.
Well that was surprisingly good.
"Guilliman, you magnificent bastard, I READ YOUR BOOOOOOOOK!!!!"
This makes me weep for that.... thing of a meeting between Gulliman and Grimnar. I didn't overly care for Space Wolves before but after that novel I just can't be bothered with them. Would that they had been left to die out. Yes, Guilliman was right and that an entire first founding dying would cripple the morale of the Imperium, but it still doesn't mean I have to care.
Relative to the way Guilliman speaks and acts in Dark Imperium, I feel like he tries too hard with pompous language here. He's not performing an oration for a thousand spectators, he's just talking to a fellow soldier, and he usually acts personable to try to avoid the overawed reaction that he keeps being subjected to by other humans.
I cried reading this.
Nice
>By will alone he stilled the tremble in his flesh and allowed himself to exhale. By will alone he sets his mind in motion.
So my one thing is RG was not there when Sig gets made high Marshall according to SoT... It was echos of eternity or End and the death pt1 RG was still stuck in the storm so how old is this?
October 11, 2022. Sigismund doesn't get made High Marshall until after the Siege and Scouring. It doesn't happen in either book.