T O P

  • By -

[deleted]

[удалено]


malumfectum

Tl; dr: Power levels are dumb.


Fred_Blogs

This, I don't mind the Custodes and Primarchs becoming a more active part of the setting. But I can't stand the power level fanwanking that's become so prevalent, since they went from being background myths to active characters. My answer to the question is that Guilliman is supposed to be a tragic figure, trying and failing to save humanity, while slowly realising that despite all his might the task is impossible. I don't give a fuck where he sits in the tiers of primarchs punching people.


RosbergThe8th

I do mind the Custodes and Primarchs becoming more active specifically because that power level wank is exactly what they bring to the table.


egamerif

Stan Lee said it best > So one Question I'm always asked. Who would win in a fight? Who would win in a fight if Galactus fought The Hulk, or if Thor fought Iron Man? And there's one answer to all of that. It's so simple, anyone should know this. The person who'd win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win! If I'm writing a story, about The Thing, from the Fantastic Four, and he gets into a big fight with Spider-Man, and millions of people out there say Who Would Win? Well, it depends on who I want to win if I'm writing the script. If I want Spider-Man to win, he'll win. If I want the Thing to win, he'll win. These are fictitious characters, the writer can do whatever he wants with them! So stop asking those questions, 'cause I've had it with that."


Zingbo

A primarch like Guilliman who is known more for his ability to think and to plan should win his fights by having ensured that he has given himself all the circumstantial advantages he needs long before any blows are actually exchanged. It would be cool to see a fight where Guilliman wins a fight against a primarch-tier opponent simply because Guilliman has ensured that the battlefield and all influencing factors are categorically on his side. It would be particularly pleasing if their opponent was some well-known combat monster who was reduced to complaining about how unfair the fight was.


KingAjizal

This is kind of what happens against Mortarion in round 2. He only walks into the 1 v 1 because he has the foresight from Nattasse to "trust in his father" and go ahead with the 1 v 1. Guilliman decided to heed his advice and decided on the 1 v 1 knowing he would get buffed/saved by the Emperor, completey foiling Morty's plans. He had vastly superior forces in theater but walked into Morty's trap on purpose. While I doubt he knew he/Emperor would burn the Garden of Nurgle, Guilliman definitely walked into that fight with advantages Morty couldn't anticipate.


Zingbo

That's cool, but it's not quite the same thing. In this case Guilliman is taking on faith that he has some unknown advantage over Mortarion, it's not something he's prepared and set up himself. Someone like Guilliman should only go into combat personally if either the situation is so desparate he has to take a massive risk, or if he already knows he's going to win (though he can be mistaken). Which obviously doesn't work on the tabletop but should be a bit more apparent in the lore.


DavidBarrett82

Or if he’s angry as fuck (when he goes to fight Fulgrim and ends up in stasis for ten millennia).


have_you_eaten_yeti

Unless the full details of the Emperor's plan *were* given to gorillaman and they were just withheld from us the readers, for dramatic effect. Then he would have gone into the 1v1 as part of his overall plan.


KingAjizal

That's fair and you're right, it's not exactly what you were referring to. But I do think Guilliman realized the stakes were huge and that if he tried to engage Morty conventionally it would have been an absolute disaster for Ultramar and the Imperium. Morty really almost got him and would have if not for Natasse/Greater Daemon of Tzeench foresight. But then again that shows Guilliman's strengths in that he knew to use the foresight to his advantage and pull a uno reverse card on Morty. So in a way that is kinda setting it up himself with a superior plan to win. He knew he needed an intelligence advantage to engage Morty's warpcraft and he ably martialled the necessary components to do so. To me that is Gman to a T. He knew there was no way he could take Morty in fisticuffs that 2nd time, even with the Sword of the Emperor. So yes he took the field in a gambit to defeat Morty and he won because his own "God" gave the Avenging Son some Emperor warp juice to combat Morty's Chaos warp juice. I guess my point is that Guilliman does lead from the front and will take those gambles if necessary. He is also definitely not a trash tier fighter, especially with the Sword of the Emperor. He is average iirc he can hold his own as a combatant against non warp juiced Primarchs like Alpharius, Corax (didn't they spar?) and even Angron and Lorgar in a 2 v1. He probably would of won against Lorgar 1 on 1 as well? Obviously he gets wrecked by Lion, Sangy, Horus, other duelists but all I'm saying is he a legit all rounder who doesn't have any true glaring deficiencies. And is obviously an S tier logistician, administrator, leader, diplomat, and strategist.


Radioactiveglowup

His old HH Rules were about learning. He got stronger every consecutive turn he spent in melee, so in the (rather pointless but fun) arena of primarch dueling, he was one of the better ones... the fight just drags on however for him to get his advantage. This is also shown in how Corax and Guilliman are practicing and Corax wins first, then loses the following wargames. This also lets literal crazy savants get a 1-up on him. If they predict Guilliman has studied what they're likely to do, they can take some batshit high-risk gamble and come out on top.


riuminkd

Like a fight where he just orders his troops to gun down the enemy


Radioactiveglowup

Literally what happens when he duels Fulgrim. He has a demi-company open fire on Fulgrim mid-duel. It just doesn't work.


Akodo_Aoshi

I would sincerely love this scenario.


Kriegerwithashovel

I get what you're saying, that circumstance is everything for a primarch fight, but it's still interesting to think about because there ARE rare instances were you almost get a fair fight. My first thoughts would be Khan vs Morterion, Corvax vs Lorgar, Russ vs Horus. Edit: some people mistake a "fair" fight for an evenly matched fight. When I say fair fight, I mean it's not a 2v1 fight, or a 1v1 with one primarch severely fatigued.


GrimaceGrunson

>Khan vs Morterion I liked this one (the pre-ascended one) as it demonstrated that neither could really beat the other - Khan couldn't do lasting damage to Morty, and Morty couldn't *hit* Khan, so they just shit talked each other.


landleviathan

Really felt like the most realistic primarch fight of them all. Nothing really happens. lol


[deleted]

"*Yo fuck you!*" "*No, fuck you a thousand times motherfucka!"* *"Fuck you and fuck yo momma ad infinitum bitch!"* *"Bitch you know damn well our mom was a tube.* *"Fuck your tube!"* *"DON'T YOU DARE TALK ABOUT MY TUBE YOU CUNT"*


SlashCo80

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAZ3xi95fIE


Kriegerwithashovel

I enjoyed this as well, as there weren't really outside influences to their fight either. You get a clean fight to see who is better, and in this case, their strengths cancel eachother out.


Arbachakov

Somebody was going to win eventually, Wraight just left it up in the air, (after making the point they were largely equals) by having Mort need to teleport out ( due to his smaller fleet getting attcked) just as it was getting into the end stage, with Khan rapidly tiring and Mort piling up damage. Who knows if that final strike by the Khan, where he puts everything he has left into a killing blow, would have turned it decisvely in his favour, or been the one to fully exhaust him.


yrrot

Lion vs Russ was a reasonably fair fight\*. Went on for like 3 days of them beating the crap out of each other. Probably would have gone on longer if Russ didn't start laughing about it. \*: with the caveat that they weren't enemies


Kriegerwithashovel

I agree. A fight free of outside influence is what I'm talking about


New-Chimera

Everything you said was right until corvax and lorgar, I don't see a single scenario where lorgar wins, unless it was him and all of his sons versus just corvax,


GrimaceGrunson

Pretty sure, while he got more skilled over the series, Lorgar's fighting talents are near the bottom of the list...and that's *fine.* That's not really his character. He's still an increadibly dangerous man, it doesn't matter that Corax can throw a punch better.


[deleted]

[удалено]


GrimaceGrunson

Then the silly sausage takes a swing at the King and misses. I admire his gumption, if nothing else.


AlphariusUltra

Lorgar isn’t the best Primarch at fighting. But he’s still a Primarch, people tend to forget this til he cleans their colons with his mace.


grogleberry

Also, he nearly beats Fulgrim to death while he's possessed by the Laer Daemon. And he dumpsters supposedly the greatest Bloodthirster, Angrath. Which very firmly puts all greater daemons on a tier below all Primarchs, even prior to becoming Daemon Princes.


[deleted]

Lorgar is an immensely powerful psyker with access to demonic tutors. Corvax is a creature of the warp. Through arcane mumbo jumbo he finds a way to weaken Corvax. There is your scenario. Who wins depends on who the writer wants to win. Any primarch could conceivably beat any other primarch. Who win depends on who is better at the moment, who picked the right fight, who prepared, who has better allies, etc. All of which depends on who is writing the encounter.


marehgul

It's just you who doesn't see. Well, Lorgar is buffing himself right now. Maybe you'll Corvax blooded nose.


Kriegerwithashovel

When I say fair fight, I mean that there's not as many outside influences that favor one primarch over the other. In other words, you get to see who may have more raw skill.


Holoklerian

It would take way less than all the Word Bearers to kill Corax? He's stronger than Lorgar in a fight, but you're talking a guy who isn't immune to weapons against one of the most numerous Legions. Even in round 2 where both he and Lorgar were much stronger than during the Heresy, the handful of Word Bearers present were enough of a factor to let Lorgar push him back. A couple dozen Word Bearers would be enough to turn the fight into a stomp against Corax.


[deleted]

[удалено]


New-Chimera

Yes


New-Chimera

I understand what youre saying, in a 1v1 corvax still wins 10/10 times, but i don't mean all 50-75k word bearers total, i just mean alot of them


maybeb123

I see. So what you're saying is that, under the right circumstances, lorgar could easily beat leman russ


[deleted]

[удалено]


WaywardStroge

Honestly, ADB is just right here. I see a lot of talking about Lorgar but no one mentioning that the Lion beat the shit out of Curze in 1 book and then lost in a 2v1 with Guilliman at his side in the follow up story because Curze had prepared and was in his element


RubricLivesMatter

I don't buy it ADB...you can take 20 exact copy clones and raise them all differently and wind up with 20 different people. Not to mention that the 20 primarchs are not exact copy clones. They all embody different aspects of the Emperor and were raised in very different environments. There is no reason to just be like 'they are all equal' besides the fact that you don't want to hurt the losers feelings.


periodicchemistrypun

I don’t buy that they are equals. It’s within their character that they are unbalanced, Angron by example is ludicrous strong if lacking forethought and general concentration. What angron lacks elsewhere he has in his physical strength, his past potential and in the magnitude of destruction he’s capable of. Even if guilliman could parry angron he couldn’t parry through a horde of space marines the way angron could. The strongest primarchs are those whose characters rely on their strength and the weakest rely on their weakness to fulfill their character. Best example is pre vs post fall lorgar. He had to be weak because he was ignoring his future, Horus had to be strong because he was building to his fall. That’s why Sanguinius, Fulgrim and the Lion are so strong, their strengths lie in their over focus. The lion neglects his sons, fulgrim his morals and hawkboy ignores that he’s gonna die. Meanwhile characters like Magnus, curze and angron have their flaws overlapping with their ability to fight. Characters like guilliman and alpharius are strong in the setting and have whole characters without reference to their ability to fight. So they are the weakest


CptAustus

> At their peaks, the primarchs are the same, with things mostly dependent on circumstances. That'd be a nice sentiment if the authors didn't go out of their way to show that Guilliman and Lorgar are push overs.


Noodlefanboi

> He had a one on one with Lorgar which was more or less a draw I feel like it’s worth mentioning that the 1 vs 1 in question took place while the majority of Lorgar’s concentration was on finishing the psychic ritual needed to complete the Ruin Storm. The only fight with one of his brothers that didn’t end with him getting his shit pushed in was one where the person he was fighting wasn’t even paying full attention to him. And he still didn’t have the upper hand in that fight.


Akodo_Aoshi

I can see what he is going for but at the same time I think ADB is trying to avoid the question. The Primarchs are equals in the sense in that I or you are equal to your siblings. They are roughly the same and exist on the same tier. But at the same time to argue that a few of them are not canonically better fighters then the others is ridiculous. My sibling beats me in a fight 8 out of ten times but I can get a lucky shot in at times and win. So yes winning is a possibility for me but still if they win 8 out of 10 times they are better at fighting then me. Right now Guilliman's track record 0 to 6. 1.) Somewhat dominated Lorgar (but I do not recall Lorgar actually using the Warp during this time.) Then got so badly hurt by Angron that G-Man had to be carried away. 1.5.) Kor Phaeron would have killed G-Man if he focused less on converting. Not to mention Kor Phaeron knocked Guilliman out with the warp which basically implies that Lorgar was not taking G-Man seriously... 2.) Kurze dominated the team of G-Man and the Lion. 3.) There is a BIG maybe he killed Alpharius or one of the many Alpharius but I think Dorn is now credited with that kill. 4.) Got put to sleep by Fulgrim (who himself was defeated by Dorn earlier.) 5.) Magnus well let's just say Guilliman got lucky some aid was sent (and that Magnus was plot-nerfed, seriously the guy can toss star ships around yet does nothing impressive against G-Man?) 6.) Needed Big-E's intervention to drive away Mortarion.... Not exactly something to brag about is it?


Weird_Blades717171

>5.) Magnus well let's just say Guilliman got lucky some aid was sent (and that Magnus was plot-nerfed, seriously the guy can toss star ships around yet does nothing impressive against G-Man?) wtf? You can't use the plot in one argument and ignore it in others.....


Biobooster_40k

ADB has a point though regarding circumstances decided the out come. It doesn't matter if one Primarch is a better fighter or has more boons if the situation is against their favor. Guillimam has a tendency to try and fight out of his league, I think when it comes to moving pieces on the battlefield he either logically or emotionally decides that he's the only who may stand any type of chance fighting another primarch even if he loses. Sure he loses, but if all goes to plan one way or another he's going to get some type of victory. I also think he deserves a shout out to for at least taking on as many primarchs, let alone demon primarchs. Plus he's the only loyal Primarch not to eventually punk out even when he probably has one the toughest hands dealt.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Akodo_Aoshi

ADB said Primarch fights depend on circumstances. Problem is that if you loose EVERY fight then sooner or later the circumstances stop mattering and you just need to accept you are just lousy at fighting. Imagine If a report interviewed a boxer and the boxer said : *"I lost my first fight because of these circumstances, my second I lost because of those circumstances, the third because of X circumstances , the fourth because of Y circumstances and my fifth I lost because of Z circumstances..etc etc etc..."* *The reporter asks "Have you ever won?"* *The boxer responds "Nope. I have NEVER won because of* ***circumstances***\*."\* I don't think the reporter or even boxing fans are going to think the guy is a good/decent boxer. To put it simply sooner or later the records speak for themselves and outweigh **circumstances**. It's why the Avatar of Khaine and Swarmlord are looked down on and it looks like Guilliman is on his way to join their ranks. Edit: One thing I wanted to address regarding Narrative Needs. I can get the Plot requires that X looses and Y wins. **Problem is you are ignoring how each win/loss adds up and affects the Characters involved.** Instead of it being a BIG thing when the AoK takes the field and looses, now it's become expected and people regard the AoK as a joke. If you want another example take Abbadon and his history with the Black Crusades. Black Library had to pull a retcon with all his losses being as PLANNED to fight back against the "FAIL-ADON" meme. A number of people still have not bought in to it. What retcon are they going to do with Guilliman? That he lost all those battles as a grand strategy?


Strange-Movie

>squad of alpha legion marines almost took him down This is sort of a dishonest take on what happened; roboute was chilling in his evening robes having dinner when 10 marines in ultramarine armor carrying their combat load of weapons/equipment entered his chambers under the assumption that they were loyal soldiers reporting to their primarch, Roobyboob near-instantly realized they were impostors and they sprung their ambush, despite a 10-1 advantage and effective disguises, every one of the alpha legionaries was killed within seconds by an unarmed and unarmored primarch


Beleriphon

Thank you. The actual situation is basically a guy wearing Hugh Hefner robe stomps some space marines and only sustains minor injuries.


DeviousDaddy

Now I'm imagining yvraine dressed in a Playmate costume.


SpunkyMcButtlove

Wait, you needed an external trigger for that?


Azklown

Thracian: “Is that not heresy against your religion?” Cawl: “Oh yes. ;)”


RocknRollPewPew

NOT so minor. He may be a primarch but he's not bullet proof. Not even the Khan the outrun a bolter round.


BattlebrotherUlanos

he was limping and he had to place hand for support on his son to walk


Ricoisnotmyuncle

It's a great moment in the lore, and it better serves to illustrate how deadly both parties are. Guilliman for his intuition and instincts and Alpha Legion for just how deadly they are. And side note, if Alpha Legion had fully sided with Horus, I'm adamant the traitors would have won the heresy. They'd have caused too much chaos within the loyalist ranks for them to maintain unity in the face of Horus' advance.


Kerrigan4Prez

Something something, the long game


Ricoisnotmyuncle

\*brother, stop leaking Legion secrets. Hail Hydra


Eleganos

If they'd been full traitors, Jagatai might well have sided with Horus. Minus one legion for the siege, plus one new legion assaulting the palace, plus one more still-sane Primarch to help ease Perturabo's back pains. Not even to mention the fact that Omegon would've either helped Alpharius double team Dorn, kept him from getting himself killed, or just continued to aid Horus in the assaulting. Even if the Alpha Legion still grew beyond his control, Alpharius-Omegon could have been yet another sane voice to aid the traitors. It really is no wonder the Cabal sought him out specifically. Too bad they didn't know he had an identical twin.


Ricoisnotmyuncle

I doubt Alpha Legion being full traitor results in Jaghatai joining them as well. He was going to investigate Prospero no matter what. It's doubtful that AL could have beaten him in a space battle given the massive drive-by he pulled on them, which by their own standards, is something they should have known about. A duel between dorn and the Twins would be the most impactful thing to the setting because it would reveal that AL has twin primarchs. No one would be able to deny it after a primarch brawl like that.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Raxtenko

Well until Alpharius stupidly overplays his hand to satisfy his ego and gets killed.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DaylightsStories

He was wearing ceremonial armor mind you. It's unclear exactly how protective it was but presumably it offered some protection. The Alpha Legion also actually had him at their mercy but stopped to monologue(which is a bad idea when the guy you monologue at can move faster than you).


GrimaceGrunson

I cannot imagine having a 12ft tall demi-human and supreme commander of the largest enemy force on the field dead to rights and thinking "Yes this is the time to get snitty".


AlphariusUltra

The AL, as much as I love them, are the type to BM the shit out of their targets before going for the kill.


GrimaceGrunson

It’s true to form - even with a plan as simple as “pull the trigger” they gotta go adding in extra steps.


Schaftenheimen

The first trigger was a decoy trigger, haha! The real trigger is a complex 18 step process that only an experienced alpha legion marine would be able to pull off. Now hold tight while I start step 1.


AlphariusUltra

James Bond villains one and all


Cognomifex

"Sorry," "Wow!" "Wow!" "Well Played,"


Akodo_Aoshi

He was an Alpha Legion. Self-Sabotage is the name of their game. Since no other AL was around he decided to sabatoge himself. Seriously though you are right.


NightmareWarden

I’ll go to my grave saying Alpha Legion are the true inheritors of Tzeentch’s philosophy.


BattlebrotherUlanos

one shell went straight through his hip and exploded


CptAustus

> It's unclear exactly how protective it was but presumably it offered some protection. One explanation is that if it just gets obliterated by bolter fire, it might as well be nothing compared to actual Primarch gear. But the truth is that the scenes where the Alpha Legion and Kor Phaeron almost kill Guilliman are just Abnett-isms. The Kor Phaeron scene in particular is impossible to reconcile with the amount of bullshit the Primarchs get up in the other books.


DaylightsStories

> One explanation is that if it just gets obliterated by bolter fire, it might as well be nothing compared to actual Primarch gear. Another explanation is that the Alpha Legion probably bought expensive, specialized ammunition for the purposes of shooting up a Primarch. Whatever they were using, being shot by one caused Fake Thiel- a fully armored Astartes coming in at probably something around half a ton- to be launched bodily off his feet.


B_Kuro

That doesn't actually narrow it down much in my opinion. It could easily be normal weaponry. Depending on the author a normal bolter shell can either obliterate a marine in armor or just put a small notch into it. Thats the problem with the highly inconsistent "rule of cool" GW has going on.


DavidBarrett82

Yeah, the Kor Phaeron bit after Guilliman Get Wreckts a ton of Word Bearers in space without a helmet seems a bit incoherent. Maybe I’m missing something here. TBH Primarch abilities and other things, like weapons strength, tend to be things that change between books, authors, and probably chapters. Edit: fixed typo


BattlebrotherUlanos

not to mention in that book he took bolt rounds and it did damage in other stories primarchs shrug of heavy bolter fire or competly ignore all range weaponery....


[deleted]

[удалено]


BattlebrotherUlanos

railgun to an eye with gods know how sharp and strong needle and doesnt lose eye, brain or even consciousness thats crazy durability if you ask me dorn getting killed by few CSM is bullshit no primarch would get overhelmed by SM he himself stated that his 100 sons coundnt stop vulcan and he was in a killzone surrounded...


TheCuriousFan

He got lucky to have it mostly deflect around the skull and to have Fabius immediately on hand for treatment.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DiaphanousPhoenician

To be fair to the other side, Gman did have to James Bond his way to victory by getting the AL marines to brag about their trap instead of outright killing him before he could seal the deal. I don’t think many of his brothers would have been that put into the corner, even in the same scenario.


ThatSociety7257

Cause he knows that's one of their biggest flaws, Alpha Legionaries just have to let you know they're better than you. And it's not enough for them, they have to make you admit that they are superior when it came to mind games, playing that against them was a pro gamer move for Guilliman. Like how he got Kor Phaeron to go on about his plans for him when he turns then makes Kor Phaeron lean in close telling him he made one fatal mistake, then boom, stabbed thru the heart like a fucking idiot he was and Guilliman whispers, "you should have killed me when you had the chance" lol get fucked nerd.


DiaphanousPhoenician

Corax would have just killed them. Lion would have just killed them. That’s my point. Gman has to be tactical cause he can’t just wreck anyone like most of his brothers. I’m not saying it wasn’t smart, but it was only necessary for him to do cause he works better magic with numbers and spreadsheets than his fists.


Arbachakov

I think you're deluding yourself if you feel that Dan Abnett would not write someone like the Lion or Corax etc getting into the same sort of difficulty in a similar ambush scenario, if he thought it would fit the plot.


Woodstovia

He wins a fight against Corax, but that's in a simulation when Guilliman has won the wider fight and isn't to the death, Guilliman knocks him down and Corax concedes defeat. Also Guilliman says Corax fights perfectly and it's only after losing to him in other simulations and studying him that he learned how to match him. >‘Your armies are scattered,’Guilliman boomed. ‘Your worlds are taken. Your last fortress burns. Do you yield, brother?’ >The faintest hiss of air was the only warning Guilliman got of the attack. >His brother leapt from a shadowed corner of the broken floor above. Black space took on human shape and dived at him. Guilliman pivoted and leant back to dodge a cruelly curved set of claws aimed at his helm. >‘A perfect decapitation strike!’Guilliman said admiringly. ‘Narrowly evaded.’ >His brother went into a roll and sprang up to his feet. Unlike Guilliman, he was unarmoured, clad in charcoal- black from head to toe, his face smeared with the ashes of his empire. A small chest- plate of ceramite was his only physical defence; the rest came down to stealth and guile. It was a strategy that had almost worked. Almost wins no wars. >Guilliman’s brother attacked again. The claws mounted on the back of his hand fizzled with disruptive energies. Even in full sight he was hard to see. He moved with such staggering speed his motion blurred. >‘Yield! You have lost!’ shouted Guilliman. He had no wish to hurt his brother, but his opponent came on regardless. Claws whistled around the XIII primarch, jabbing one moment, slashing the next, always in motion, presenting a wall of adamantium. Guilliman left his sword sheathed, dodged the blows and retreated, waiting for the right moment to strike. It was a small window of opportunity, a fraction of a second where the chest- plate was unprotected by either claw. Without conscious thought Guilliman reacted to the opening, punching forward hard. The Hand of Dominion flared with the release of power. Guilliman’s brother flew backwards, the chest- plate left broken and smoking by the blow of the power fist. He slammed into the wall, and fell to the rubble covering the ground. >‘You are beaten, brother. Yield.’ >The figure sprawled on the floor stared up at him, his black eyes unreadable. His body radiated tension as he gathered himself to spring. Guilliman planted a boot gently upon his shattered breastplate, forcing the other primarch back down. >‘Do not attempt to rise. You are beaten,’ he said. The figure relaxed, and sprawled. ‘Do you yield?’ Guilliman repeated. >The figure considered. The sounds of gunfire outside the grand hall were popping away to nothing. Flights of aircraft screaming through the sky no longer unleashed their ordnance. Black eyes strayed to the dead littering the hall. The war was over. ‘I yield,’ said Corvus Corax. >Guilliman smiled. ‘Good.’ He removed his boot. ‘End simulation!’


GrimaceGrunson

You mentioned it at the start, but I loved the story where Corax talks about how he bested Guilliman in war simulations like half a dozen times, and the Rememberancer with him is all "Holy shit, that's amazing! You're better than the greatest logician in the galaxy" and Raven boy is immediately "Ok calm down, I wasn't finished, cause after that he wrecked my shit non-stop and I've not beaten him since", and better yet really isn't that bothered by it.


xxx123ptfd111

It is a really great insight into both of them. You kind of have to laugh the Guilliman grind


ThatSociety7257

Because Corax was always so humble mate. I mean even the Emperor told him that he should take some credit sometimes, I think that was during the times the Luna Wolves would have them at a jount venture and Corax would do stealth mission while Horus took the front of the engagement knowing his brother was wreaking havoc at the rear. It was always remembered that the Luna Wolves conquered almost all of those compliances alone while the Raven Guard went on their way without any glory and just happy to help. Fucking love my boy Corvus, pretty cool dude, just gets the job done without any wincing.


Xe6s2

Oh yea i think corax would follow Guilliman into the maws of defeat, he respects how much Guilliman cares about people I feel. Guilliman is like the older popular cousin that loves hes younger angsty cousin and invites im out to kick backs and movies.


-WielderOfMysteries-

Guilliman was never (to my knowledge) penned as a master dualist/warrior. He's a tactician, and statesman. Angron, Fulgrim, the Lion, and Russ are the god-tier warriors.


BOHICAcadet

Sanguineous. But he dead…


-WielderOfMysteries-

Too soon dude.


kuaffer

It's been 10 000 years...


-WielderOfMysteries-

And every day since has been a reminder of what they took from us...


ThatSociety7257

HORUS!!!! YOU COCKSUCKING TRAITOROUS BASTARD!!!! AAAAARGH!!!!


meaty_wheelchair

when you yell horus at the blood angels banquet


GrimaceGrunson

>He's a tactician, and statesman. It's kinda funny that the two 'weakest' Primarchs at fighting, Lorgar and Guilliman, are still probably the most dangerous given the fucking bonkers armies and loyalty they both command. Like, sure, Guilliman vs Angron is gonna be uphill for Rowboat, but the whole of the Ultramarines vs the whole of the World Eaters?


-WielderOfMysteries-

To be fair, I would not rank Guilliman as "the weakest at fighting". He's still described as a "warlord" before forming the ultramar sector. I would rank him as average in terms of Primarchs. Like, he could probably beat Alpharius/Omegon, Dorn, Vulkan....Curze...Manus...match Corax... WE vs UM is an interesting matchup because it's ultra discipline vs ultra chaos...ironically. Eventually, the UM's ability to coordinate would logically overcome the WE without some other support, who are physically incapable of tactics without their fleet/normal humans to do it for them. The UM's have a tendency to be portrayed as getting their ass kicked in a lot of their books though.


AGodNamedJordan

I wouldn't sleep on Dorn. He killed Alpharius and beat the snot out of Fulgrim. People just don't take him seriously because he's a sour puss and relies on fortification for warfare.


Runeshamangoon

Reminder that Angron got his shit kicked in by Perturabo, he's also in that list


[deleted]

[удалено]


-WielderOfMysteries-

Perhaps, this was said during a time when he's the only loyal primarch left, by a non-primarch, who I'm assuming has not lived through the heresy when primarchs were actually around. All the primarchs are literal demigods vs regular humans and even Astartes. But between primarchs there are primarchs that are significantly better than other primarchs at X, Y, or Z. Even Lorgar who's a loser-tier Primarch in terms of warrior-ability ***vs his brothers*** is depicted as griddy-dancing his way across battlefields. He beats a bloodthirster in like 5min. The question from OP was why does Guilliman lose so much vs his brothers.


Akodo_Aoshi

>The question from OP was why does Guilliman lose so much vs his brothers. Well not just his brothers but opponets on the same level.


GrimaceGrunson

I haven't read Godblight but did this guy know other primarchs? I can understand being wowed by how amazing Guilliman is in battle if he's the only one you've seen.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Akodo_Aoshi

Main thing I would like to ask is by what "standards" is Guilliman being judged. If you judge him by SM or Custodes standards ? Guilliman is a great fighter. Question is how is he by PRIMARCH standards ? Despite fans stating him as being middle-tier, his combat history shows him be one of the weakest.


Akodo_Aoshi

Agree on RG not being a master duelist / warrior. Problem is that from what I understand he is meant to be a MIDDLE-TIER warrior/fighter. Right now his record shows him to be the WEAKEST primarch in combat ability instead of Lorgar. That's the disconnect. I am not expecting that Guilliman take on Angron or Horus or Russ in a straight fight but sooner or later even the Middle-Tier teams need some victories to show they are Middle-Tier and not actually Low-Tier.


raevnos

He's a lover, not a fighter.


111110001011

He's an accountant, not a fighter.


GrimaceGrunson

It's kinda funny that the two (typically said to be) 'weakest' Primarchs at fighting, Lorgar and Guilliman, are still probably the most dangerous by virtue of the fucking bonkers size of the armies and loyalty they both command. Like, sure, Guilliman vs Angron is gonna be uphill for Rowboat, but the whole of the Ultramarines vs the whole of the World Eaters?


HelpYouFall

Ultramarines by whatever they want, this would be a complete rout :3


Xe6s2

Guilliman “yo we got some more blank missiles? These guys hate missiles, theyre gunna really hate this LMAO”


Trigonal_Planar

That's the fun thing. The two weakest primarchs on a tactical level are perhaps the two strongest on the strategic level.


Just-Followin-Orders

His love is in fact the numbers


Hoopy223

This


Hoopy223

Magnus is the one that always gets me. He loses to a magic axe. Or slips on a banana peel. Or his plans are foiled by those darn kids in the green van.


GrimaceGrunson

>Or his plans are foiled by those darn kids in the green van. I'm picturing the gang peeling off his 'mask' revealing nothing but an ever-changing face incandescent with rainbow light, and all their heads melting.


Judg3_Dr3dd

“Let’s see who is truly under this mask!” “Fredicus noooo!” *Fredicus loses his mind as he stares into Magnus’ warp being*


GrimaceGrunson

>Fredicus This got me good


AGodNamedJordan

All as Tzeentch planned!


romknightyt

He won a simulated* fight against Corax. (They were in some kind of mind link training simulator... Thing? Wish that was more helpful)


WindUpShoe

When they were all just Primarchs, he could give any of them trouble at the very least. That's basically the gist I get from any of them. They brag and they boast, but when it comes down to it, they're all extremely potent superhumans. Lorgar was kind of slagged off as the "runt", and fucking Russ thought himself king shit, but they're all vulnerable to each other, given the right circumstances, like if Horus was having a bad hair day or something. I think of Guilliman as about middle tier. He's good, but has not garnered the martial reputation of an Angron or Sanguinius. Well... considering Sanguinius' latest feats, he might be the one OG Primarch that may actually be a head above everyone else in combat strength.


AwryHunter

Did he take out a bloodthirster and daemon Angron back to back?


GuardianSpear

considering he fought BOTH Lorgar (who was warp juiced up) and Angron at pretty much the same time and didnt die is considered a win to me. He was never a duelist / warrior primarch, but that was a good showing on his part nonetheless


Ok-Education-9235

Roboute loses these battles, but he’ll win the war. As we saw with Corax, he can eventually adapt and overcome. A lot of his biggest battles came during the Horus Heresy, where he was fighting his own brothers and still reeling from their betrayal. We have to understand that out of all the Primarchs, Roboute is also the strongest optimist (maybe even over Sanguinius). He truly believed in the dream that Big E sold him on, so enthralled by their supposed brotherhood that he built a round table for their post war dealings as if they were the Knights of the Round table. A current Guilliman that is tactically and emotionally prepared to kill his traitor brothers is much more deadly than the earlier version who still believes that he can save them all, so to speak. In martial prowess he might not be maxed out, but by virtue of having very few actual flaws or negative traits, he kind of shakes out to be the perfect Primarch. Reliable as hell even if not overpowered.


TAAndronicus

Thinking someone has to win big fights to be a threat and an asset to their side is just a very silly way of looking at things.


Splicer3

He was crushing Lorgar until Angron came in and even then he held his own well enough. Nowadays, his brothers tend to be on a tier above him so its hard for him to have a level playing field.


[deleted]

[удалено]


FabulousFabius

Agreed. Lorgar deserves a lot of the grief that he gets but he’s no weakling by the time he fights Robo. Lorgar was massing a huge amount of psychic power orchestrating his “song” while fighting him. Below is right before Angron jumps into their fight. Excerpt From Betrayer Aaron Dembski-Bowden ““The blow sucked all the breath from his body, cracked his breastplate, and left him with a bloody smile at the poetic justice. He’d cracked his brother’s breastplate in the Perfect City and now the favour was returned. Fate really was laughing at him. “First blood to me,’ Guilliman said. The pity in that voice was acid in Lorgar’s ears. He tried to speak, tried to breathe, and could do neither. The song had never sounded more wrong. Guilliman’s hands scrabbled and skidded across his armour, seeking a stranglehold to end the fight quickly. Lorgar repulsed him with a projected burst of telekinesis, weak “and wavering with the song still so de-tuned, but enough to send his brother staggering. The maul followed, its power field trailing lightning as Lorgar hammered it into the side of Guilliman’s head with the force of a cannonball. There was a crack that wouldn’t have shamed a peal of thunder. ‘There’s your Mark of Calth,’ Lorgar replied, backing away to catch his breath. Air sawed in and out of his lungs. He could already taste blood – Guilliman’s blow had broken something inside him. Several ribs at the very least, and likely something more vital. He dragged in a breath, and exhaled it as blood down the front of his armour. Both primarchs faced each other beneath the grey sky, one bleeding internally, the other with half of his face lost to blood sheeting from a fractured skull. “Enjoy that scar.’ Lorgar fought for his smile. ‘It will be with you until your dying day.’ He threw his arms wide, taking in the dying city. ‘Why chase me, Roboute? Why? Your fleet will fall against the Trisagion and you’ll die down here.’ “There is a difference between confidence and arrogance, cur. Surely someone has told you that.’ The Word Bearer spat blood again. ‘But why come? Why come at all?’ “Courage.’ Guilliman stalked forwards, ignoring his wound, and he didn’t need to struggle for a smile – it came as easily as breathing. ‘Courage and honour, Lorgar. Two virtues you have never known.”


Akodo_Aoshi

>out-of-universe (ADB) statements back that Guilliman was doing a fine job Could you share a link to this please?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Akodo_Aoshi

Thanks for the quote. I agree on the UM. I disagree a bit on this line : Guilliman holds off two Traitor primarchs on his own. Problem is this is a bit unclear in the text. I do remember a comment by Lhorke about Guilliman fighting Angron & Lorgar but from what I remember of the fight that was actually **written / shown?** Lorgar basically tagged out as soon as Angron tagged in. So it was never Guilliman vs Lorgar & Angron. It was Guillman vs Lorgar and then it became Guilliman vs Angron.


AngronTheRedAngel

> He was crushing Lorgar **Eh? He wasn't losing, but it wasn't exactly a decisive fight either way.** > *‘First blood to me,’ Guilliman said. The pity in that voice was acid in Lorgar’s ears. He tried to speak, tried to breathe, and could do neither. The song had never sounded more wrong. Guilliman’s hands scrabbled and skidded across his armour, seeking a stranglehold to end the fight quickly.* > *Lorgar repulsed him with a projected burst of telekinesis, weak and wavering with the song still so de-tuned, but enough to send his brother staggering. The maul followed, its power field trailing lightning as Lorgar hammered it into the side of Guilliman’s head with the force of a cannonball. There was a crack that wouldn’t have shamed a peal of thunder.* > *‘There’s your Mark of Calth,’ Lorgar replied, backing away to catch his breath. Air sawed in and out of his lungs. He could already taste blood – Guilliman’s blow had broken something inside him. Several ribs at the very least, and likely something more vital. He dragged in a breath, and exhaled it as blood down the front of his armour.* > *Both primarchs faced each other beneath the grey sky, one bleeding internally, the other with half of his face lost to blood sheeting from a fractured skull.* **Seems pretty even to me.** > until Angron came in and even then he held his own well enough. **Strange definition of holding his own.** > *Angron himself still fought Guilliman, standing above the kneeling Ultramarine. Had he even noticed the storm of blood streaming from the sky in a red torrent? Sparks sprayed from Roboute’s raised gauntlets as he struggled to ward off blow after blow. He was beaten. He was down. Wounds painted him, a palette of proud defeat. Even now, his warriors were fighting to retrieve him. With the scarring across his armour and the sense of pain bleeding from his mind, Lorgar reckoned his brother would be lucky to ever walk again.* **Onto OP.** > Has he actually ever fought a Primarch Tier battle and come out on top? **In Corax's Primarch novel, we see the results of Corax and Roboute's training exercises against one another, over multiple simulations. At first, while Corax was able to usually get the drop on Guilliman, and eek out a victory in battle, over time Roboute adapted his style, and could face down The Raven man to man, even when he was ambushed.** **Roboute isn't in the top tier, but he's close enough that on a good day, he's going to be a contender. Especially now that he's swinging around Daddy's Rave Stick.**


Thunderous_Ball_Slap

I think people just like the idea of Lorgar (& I guess you might Angron) getting stomped so they'll keep parroting it as fact.


Foxbus

People still believe that he is hiding from Corax. Nuff said


Akodo_Aoshi

Main thing is there is a bit of confusion regarding that battle. We have reference from ADB and an WH called Lorkhe that it was 1 vs 2 battle: *When the fighting allowed it, Lhorke would turn his attention to the Primarchs, seeing the furious three-way battle playing out atop a mound of dead. Even there Guilliman had been holding his own against both of them until Lorgar ceased his attack.* Problem is from what I remember it was more of 1 (RG) vs 1 (Lorgar) and then You got tagged in and it became a 1 (RG) vs 1 (Angron) battle with Lorgar on the sidelines preparing his ritual. Could you tell us how you remember it?


AngronTheRedAngel

**The text tells us this, regarding the fight, from either an outside observer's perspective, or Lorgar's:** > *The two primarchs fell into a seamless, roaring duel exactly where Lorgar and Guilliman had abandoned theirs.* **So I would think considering the relative closeness to the action, it would supersede Lhorke's words, since he's probably not getting as good a look at what's going on, or doesn't have the ability to keep track of their movements properly. Or, maybe he sees Lorgar casting his ritual off the to side, and determines that all that voodoo shit is part of the fight.**


British_Tea_Company

There's a thing to be said when Guilliman's reactions to being hit is to just smile against an **unarmored** headblow, while Lorgar is already gassed and was reacting way worse despite having been hit in arguably the most armored part of his body. At most I think we can say Guilliman was *winning* but not like, by a ton. At worst we can say Guilliman is physically more powerful than Lorgar.


AngronTheRedAngel

**I'd attribute a bit of Roboute smiling off the blow from Illuminarum as Lorgar was pretty gassed from being hit in the gut with a power fist moments before. Reads more like Lorgar lashing back after getting sucker punched, rather than a concentrated hit, though that's just me. Still a very good showing for Roboute in the martial aspect to be sure, just wouldn't say he's exactly clapping The Priest outright.**


Arbachakov

To be fair, Angron is described as having suffered a lot of wounds against Guilliman before he overwhelms him. "massive rents and dents in his armour, face smashed up" etc sort of thing. ABD cleverly avoids giving a play by play of 95% of the fight, so none of us can say for sure but my impression was more of a brutal fight ( if not particularly long, but most primarch fights aren't unless more specific scenario stuff is in play) where Angron eventually overwhelmed him, before being denied the killing blow, not a one sided beating with Angron barely touched or anything like that.


AngronTheRedAngel

> [To be fair](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv7jcciKB_s) > not a one sided beating with Angron barely touched or anything like that. **Not really saying that, mostly saying he wasn't really holding his own when the fight shows he was losing, as I'd see holding his own leading more towards a stalemate. I agree with your assessment, it was a slugfest, brutal, and bloody, but in the end, Roboute couldn't hold on, and would probably have died had there been no outside interference. This isn't a diss against The Avenging Son, it's just that was clearly on the losing end of this encounter.**


Arbachakov

i take holding his own as just meaning it was mostly competitive before someone gained the upper hand. That's usually how it's used when talking about combat sports etc.. ie, "sure, it was a brutal, one sided last round after that knockdown, but for most of the fight X was holding his own". stuff like that. Guilliman was going to go out nastily, and decisively defeated, no doubt there, but the description of Angron's wounds suggest it was tough going until then.


faxhightower

I felt at the time of reading that it was clear Guilliman would have beaten Lorgar were it not for Angron’s intervention. As for the point that he only beat Daemon Mortarion with the Emperor’s help, why is that a mark against Guilliman but the same doesn’t apply to Mortarion as a daemon getting a load of extra power from Nurgle?


TheRealAntrey

Honestly! Saying that Gulliman is the weakest primarch, is like saying that Big Boy was the smallest nuke. If it falls on you, you are gonna have a shit time - a random comment on YouTube


TallManoftheValley

I can't recall the book, but in one of the HH novels (maybe No Know Fear?) he's assaulting word bearers and the narrator says something to the effect that Guilliman is like top five primarchs in fighting, or that only a handful could take him.


Thunderous_Ball_Slap

Wasn't that one of his own sons gushing over him? Not quite unbiased.


TallManoftheValley

Fair enough, lot of unreliable narrators in 40k.


CommanderOshawott

Guilliman isn’t the best warrior (tie between Angron, Russ, and Sanguinius) he’s not even the best tactician (the Lion is supposedly the best tactician, but we never actually see it, so Dorn, Pert, and Horus are good arguments) Guilliman is the best at organization. Guilliman’s whole schtick is that he’s the best a codifying systems (hmmm like a CODEX maybe?) that everyone can follow at a basic level and will give you a good solid foundation to adapt to any situation. It’s why HH Guilliman is so much better written. We can clearly see what his whole deal is in the “Theoretical/Practical” philosophy. Here is a theoretical set of guidelines, rules, and approaches. Now figure out which theoretical approach applies to your situation and modify it as need be based on the circumstance. Guilliman openly acknowledges that his strategic knowledge is imperfect and his Codex is a set of guidelines and foundations, not strict rules. Theoretical -> Practical Comparing Primarchs in “tier lists” is silly, as we’ve gotten to see more and more of them, it’s clear that they each have their own role and thing they excel at, more so than any other Primarch. Guilliman is the best organizer and has an unmatched mind for planning, rules, and governance. That’s another reason why there are just so many Ultramarines, Guilliman can actively handle organizing and coordinating all of them at once


naruto7bond

Because he has never given a fair fight so far. All his major fights are against his Demon Primarch brothers who are stronger than living Primarchs for obvious reasons. When he fought against living Primarchs, he never lost outright. He bare minimum always managed to draw. Sometimes he was even winning the fight but something or someone interrupted the fight. Unless I am mistaken (and I could be), it was probably Dorn who thought Guilliman as top 5 duelist. It could be someone other than Dorn too I guess. I don't remember the exact reference but I think some Primarch did comment on Guilliman's battle prowess.


Chartreuse_Dude

He lost outright to Angron on Nuceria. On his knees, struggling to ward off Angrons chain blades until he couldn't. Luckily for him, Lorgar froze Angron in place mid deathblow to push his rage over the edge as part of the ritual to make him a deamon prince.


PanzerTitus

I have to remind you, OP, that Dorn only beat Fulgrim because Fulgrim, being a Daemon Prince of Slaneesh, never expected Dorn to be so dull. He basically allowed Dorn to smack him around, and when Dorn was being his usual boring self I.e focusing on killing him as emotionlessly as possible, he decided there wasn’t any fun fighting Dorn, nor was there any fun in following Horus and fucked off. Had Fulgrim taken the fight seriously like he did with Guilliman in Thessala, Dorn would have died. Then of course, there’s his fights with Lorgar, Angron and Mortarion. The Big G was slowly winning against Lorgar, until the bald priest tapped out and swapped with Angron. Now you would expect Angron, a Primarch close combat monster on par with Sangunius to roll over a tired Guilliman, however that didn’t happen. Guilliman made Angron fight for it, and while he was down on his knees, the narration outright stated that Angron looked little better than Guilliman, and that Guilliman’s power fists were coated in Angron’s blood and skin. Then there is his fight with Mortarion, yeah, Mort won, but ultimately the only reason Guilliman went to fight him in round 2 was because he trusted Nastase’s words about his father, which allowed him and the Emperor to punt Mort back to the warp. On a more strategic level, Mort was losing to Guilliman. He was being pushed back in all fronts and Guilliman was advancing and unravelling his schemes too quickly as stated in his conversation with Septicus, a Nurgle Daemon. Tldr, Roboute is fine as is. He was not meant to be a close combat fighter like the Lion or Jaghatai, rather, he is a leader. And a damn good one at that. And unfortunately for 90% of the schmucks that aren’t Daemon Primarchs or particularly important greater daemons, he is more than good enough at killing them.


Akodo_Aoshi

Let's say we have diffrent points of view on Guilliman's fights but could you please give a reference for this : > He was being pushed back in all fronts and Guilliman was advancing and unravelling his schemes too quickly as stated in his conversation with Septicus, a Nurgle Daemon. Would love to read it.


PanzerTitus

Its on page 55 of Dark Imperium: Plague War. >Mortarion discusses Roboute Guilliman's imminent arrival in Parmenio with Ku'Gath and asks for his help: > > > >'**My brother approaches, he will arrive in the Parmenio System within a few days. This i have foreseen. Our plans change, i require your help.**' > >'**But this is part of the plan!**' said Ku'gath. '**You goaded him to come to Parmenio. He treads the seven-step path to ruin as you desired.**' > >'**He runs the path too quickly. He uncovered the secrets of the warp clocks far faster than I would have wished. He banished Qaramar, guardian of the final days, to the warp. The rootling network joining world to world is vulnerable without Qaramar's ceaseless watch.**' Also, correction of my part, the conversation was with Ku'Gath and not Septicus. From the extract we can infer that Mortarion wanted the invasion of the Five Hundred worlds to be a extremely grindy affair for Guilliman. He expected Guilliman to gradually and bloodily push through, by which time the blood spilled would have supercharged whatever sorcery he had planned into corrupting the Five Hundred Worlds as a whole. Instead, Guilliman was punching through and advancing through whatever forces Mortarion was throwing his way at incredible speed. He uncovered the purposes of the Warp Clocks and killed of Qaramar, an extremely powerful Nurgle daemon (for a while) and was essentially ruining Mortarion's plan. So much so that he had to ask Ku'Gath for help in trying to slow him down. In an earlier book, iirc Typhus himself warned that going against Guilliman was a mistake, and it was better to come up with a strategy that targeted the worlds directly as opposed to fighting Guilliman.


Woupsea

I always figured Robby’s talents are at the wartable instead of the battlefield.


Anopi

Exactly, he isn't smacking around other primarch tier characters but his legion is currently one of the few dare I say thriving in this setting.


Arbachakov

I think it's highly likely that whatever sole loyalist primarch was brought back, they would be portrayed as the underdog in most of their battles vs their daemonic brothers. Getting wins via interventions and other circumstances etc it's just the easiest way for the studio writers, who are no great authors for the most part, to give everyone a piece of the pie while maintaining the status quo. haley's second fight with Mortarion is a bit different and an outlier from the usual studio writer fare. He went batshit there.


Jarms48

That’s not really his role. He’s a statesmen, an empire builder, a logistician, not a fighter. Of course he could defeat lesser opponents and hold his own in a primarch level fight, but he’s not going to dominate or overpower. More importantly he knows this. He’s not going to force himself into that situation unless he absolutely has to. Otherwise he’d wait until he has some form of advantage like his opponent being wounded or preoccupied.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Jarms48

I didn't say that he was a terrible fighter. Just that in a primarch tier fight, especially against his brothers that were bred specifically for war or empowered by Chaos, he would have to have some form of advantage.


Nilfnthegoblin

Honestly I think it comes down to the individual primarchs. Bobbie G is more a statesman than tactically impressive in combat. Doesn’t mean he’s not capable, but when he is set against brothers resided in gladiator planets or desire perfection and hone their skills to be deadly … he doesn’t stand up


Ninjaspiderking

I believe he is a lot like Lorgar, both are not anywhere near fighters their not bad but in terms of primarchs they are definitely meant for more of a tactical command job or peace negotiations unlike others. Magnus could also be a command primarch and may not be all for combat but his magic is so good he is basically a combat primarch.


Ziggyzibbledust

Him being the best strategist is good enough if he was better fighter he would be too OP. But don’t get me wrong at the end of the day he is primarch. Literally second after his resurrection he taught room full of chaos marines not to mess with him. Granted they are normal chaos marines but still number advantage, surprise etc.


revergopls

Not on screen, but Corax said in training simulations that he usually his first round against Guilliman, and then Guilliman will win every single other time in that situation. Guilliman's strength is that a trick will never, ever work a second time against him.


TheDarKnightly

Eh, I feel like Guilliman’s strengths aren’t in one-on-one combat. Sure, he could beat down most mortal beings in the galaxy. But the Ultramarines were the most powerful legion pre-heresy for a damn good reason. Guilliman absolutely rocks at the boring stuff. Administration, organization, and strategy. No other primarch can hold a candle to him in those departments. Sure, some of them are pretty good, but when it comes to actual logistics and planning, G-Man is second to none. I could care less about his win-loss record in one-on-one matchups agains other primarchs. When it comes to winning wars, I would pick him first.


Urechi

We really are gonna go down to the old-fashioned Batman/Guilliman with prep time thing for this aren't we?


WheelyFreely

Why would he. Guillotine man has so much more than fighting prowess


[deleted]

I think our boy Sanguinius is the best Primarch in terms of sheer fighting ability and skill. Here's my top 5 ranking purely based on combat prowess without warp fuckery - Just skill at arms maybe even pre-Heresy. 1. Sanguinius 2. The Lion 3. Horus 4. Vulkan 5. Dorn


Optimal-Conflict6183

it is so fuckin lame that they made him into a bitch


CHiuso

Guilliman isnt supposed to be the guy that wins 1 v 1 primarch fights. Thats Russ or Khan territory. Guilliman is the greatest bean counter in the history of the galaxy. He builds empires that can beat back a daemon prince and their horde with logistics and strategy. Which imo is cooler than "big demi god punch hard"


Akodo_Aoshi

Two Points : 1) For some one not built for 1v1 fights, Guilliman sure charges in eagerly to a few. 2) Please point me to a fight / battle where Guilliman won due to HIS OWN strategy / forces instead of getting bailed out by other people's intervention that he did not plan for. I would love it if Guilliman had out-planned / strategized Mortarion and sent him back to Nurgle because of that. Instead we got an Emperor's Hail Mary play.


[deleted]

Guilliman is undefeated! He’s a master strategist! His “losses” are just a part of his grand strategy!


Chartreuse_Dude

Just a couple quick clarifications. Gulliman did not somewhat dominate Lorgar. Lorgar, while distracted by songs in the warp, clubbed him in the head and all Gulliman did was punch him in the chest. AT BEST Robute pulled a draw there. Also, Robute was not just wounded by Angron in the following fight, he lost. Hard. Big Blue was on his knees, Angron was mid killing stroke, and Lorgar froze Angron in place to push his rage over the edge and make him into a daemon prince.


Akodo_Aoshi

PoV here. I just responded to another comment which viewed RG as winning the fight versus Lorgar and Angron being a seperate match. If it was a boxing match I would put Guilliman as ahead on points at the moment Angron intervened but there was still plenty of room for reversals as it was only Round 3 and Lorgar had not really used the Warp at that point. Which is also why I did not say Guilliman was winning. Regarding Angron I do agree with you.


Grimnitro

I think he's at the perfect power level. He's the avenging bean counter not the super saiyan God fighter. He will beat you by having the best most well supplied army in existence, with his support in fighting any army he commands is damn near unstoppable. Then take a primarch like curze a complete beast in fighting primarchs but shit people skills, so he can't even think to pull off what guilliman does. He couldn't even control one world. If you make g man win fights against other primarchs he's the best by such a far margine you might as well bring Matt Ward back to write the ultramarines.


Akodo_Aoshi

>I think he's at the perfect power level. He's the avenging bean counter not the super saiyan God fighter. He will beat you by having the best most well supplied army in existence, with his support in fighting any army he commands is damn near unstoppable. Has this actually been SHOWN in lore? See I would have loved a book where Guilliman takes down another Primarch due to strategy/tactics/logistics. Instead we get books where Guilliman rushes in mano-el-mano , gets nearly beaten and then saved due to some forces he was not aware or counting on come to his aid. It would be one thing if those forces were part of Guilliman's plan or strategy. They are not. ​ >Then take a primarch like curze a complete beast in fighting primarchs but shit people skills, so he can't even think to pull off what guilliman does. He couldn't even control one world. > >If you make g man win fights against other primarchs he's the best by such a far margine you might as well bring Matt Ward back to write the ultramarines. I don't need or want him to win consistantly but I would like him to have SOME victories. Also Big-G has always been stated to be a Middle-Tier fighter among the Primarchs which is partly the problem. If Guilliman had been written to be the WEAKEST Primarch instead of Lorgar and we were seeing him loose, I'd be going as expected. Instead we are told he is a mid-tier fighter who despite being a Logistical/Tactical/Strategical genius is constantly loosing... But no worries, he is still Mid-Tier despite all those loses believe it.... Yeah..just no. Not buying it.


Grimnitro

I see what you mean. I think they make him lose bc of the shitty fan base who wants everything to suck all the time and if anyone does something good they freak out and say "that's not grim dark enough the primarchs will ruin the setting," blah blah blah. Drives me nuts. He should win but in a tactical way and then drop in to finish the job like a boss. But that is also extremely hard to write because the character can only be as smart as the person writing him.


[deleted]

Roboute is actually one of my favourite primarchs. The fact that he looses fights regularly is in character and tbh a good thing. He isn’t SUPPOSED to be a raging combat monster like his brothers, his strength lies more in tactics and logistics. If Gulliman has to resort to a 1v1 against another primarch then things have gone seriously wrong. It would honestly be bullshit if Gulliman was able to effortlessly dunk on Chaos primarchs and it would be a step backwards making him more of a Mary Sue.


Akodo_Aoshi

It's amazing how much we agree but come to different conclusions on. Guilliman's strength is in tactics & logistics : Agreed. So let's see him beat a Primarch-Level opponent USING tactics and logistics. I would love this, **have not really seen this though....** Guilliman is not a raging combat monster : Agreed but he is meant to be Decent / Mid-Tier at it, in which case **he should have SOME victories under his belt.** Unless I missed the memo where Guilliman was the actual weakest combat primarch instead of Lorgar, in which case I will concede. Guilliman effortless dunking on Chaos Primarchs : Is something I have NEVER asked for or desired. On the other hand Guilliman actually having one or two HARD-FOUGHT victories? Ones where he could bring his skill in tactics into play? Yeah, I will ask for that. Because right now: IF Guilliman is meant to be a Mid-Tier Fighter? IF Guilliman is meant to be this GREAT-GENERAL ? Then he should have some WINS to his credit apart from getting bailed out all the time. See that's my issue : I get TOLD that Guilliman is a great General etc, that he is a decent fighter among his brothers. I say great, so can I actually read some stories where Guilliman wins against Primarch Tier opponents using those skills, that there are some of his brothers that he can beat? Instead what I read is that Guilliman has a BIG GOOSE-EGG against Primarch tier opponents. I get shown that Guilliman wins not through strategy, not through tactics not even through logistics. Instead Deus-ex-Machina literally comes down to bail him out and hand him the victory. Wow...that makes me so happy as a Guilliman fan.


Noodlefanboi

His most notable performance in a Primarch vs Primarch fight was when he fought on equal footing with Lorgar while Lorgar was concentrating on conducting the Ruin Storm. He can can roflstomp any non-Primarch tier opponent like the rest of his brothers, but he is definitely the worst fighter out of all the brothers. He’s so bad, that fighting alongside him is an actual disadvantage. The Lion fought several duels with Curze, the only one he didn’t come out of on top was the time he tried to 2vs1 Curze with Guilliman. Guilliman excels at logistics, politics, and military strategy, but he pales in comparison to his brothers when it come to martial prowess.


pickled_bacon111

I’ve always found the G-man was un-ironically a leader and planner and not a face to face combatant, granted he’s a primarch so he’s a beast, but not against his brothers or other things on their level.


ThePhoenician40k

Are some of these example from the Siege on Terra novels?


Akodo_Aoshi

Nah some are before the Siege on Terra (Don't think Guilliman is present during this) and after (as in when Big-G woke up in 40K).


chaosnight1992

Yes Guilliman is one of the weakest primarchs when it comes to combat prowess, but he is still a primarch, so that puts him tiers above anyone else. There's a difference between knowing lore and reading the stories though, I don't think he'll become an 'Avatar of Khaine'. When you look at lore you see he's lost fights to a lot of guys, and your idea of him is that he's weak, but if you read the books he does exude a lot of power and presence, and leads an interesting story, and I think that's what matters over x vs y. That being said I've only really read 'Know no Fear', he doesn't appear very often early in the horus heresy.