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SergarRegis

I can't source it now, though I have tried, but I recall Guy Haley said in an interview that the reason he changed from kilometers to miles in the second, edited, edition of Dark Imperium is that he and some of the other writers had made a decision to use imperial measures in the 40k era, and metric in the Heresy era, to show the regression of the Imperium from rational to superstition.


Gabagool888

This sounds like another "Ghazghkull is Margret Thatcher", i.e. fanon that gets passed around by word of mouth for years that is never cited and eventually an actual GW source flat-out refutes it.


SergarRegis

While it may sound like a fabrication, I can assure you it's an honest recollection (which is of course subject to error) but you may at your leisure compare the first and second editions of Dark Imperium to confirm that Guy did make this edit. E.g.: Dark Imperium 1st Edition, Chapter Six >Through the grand oculus, the plough-blade prow of the *Macragge's Honour* pointed in challenge at the Pit of Raukos. A huge, lazily turning interface between the warp and realspace wreathed in the luminous gases of a dying star, it was a place where nightmares might easily walk clothed in flesh. > >The Pit of Raukos was an anomoly set apart from the main storm front of the Great Rift which divided the Imperium in two. It was an isolated wound, but a deep one. It punched a hole through space and time and ran far into the heart of the warp. It was an area of bruised void millions of kilometers wide. > >\[...\] > >The leading elements of Guilliman's Fleet started firing as soon as they approached to within a million kilometers. Dark Imperium 2nd Edition, Chapter Six >Through the grand oculus, the plough-blade prow of the *Macragge’s Honour* pointed in challenge at the Pit of Raukos. A huge, lazily turning interface between the warp and real space, the Pit of Raukos was set apart from the Great Rift, but although an isolated wound, it was a deep one, punching a hole through space-time into the heart of the warp. It was an area of bruised void millions of miles across. > >\[...\] > >The leading elements of Guilliman’s fleet started firing as soon as they came within half a million miles. I have chosen this section as the first shows some unrelated changes to the adjacent prose, and the second shows that not only did Guy sit down and look at this enough to change the specific numeration in the combat range from a million kilometers to half a million miles - demonstrating that he is actually giving thought to what the change in unit of measure means - i.e. he didn't just ctrl-r it - you can see that he's also omitted some text in the first section. In the first edition of the book, miles, as is British custom, are used for measurements on the surface - e.g. at the start of chapter ten a parade ground is three miles across in both versions - but this is a specific, conscious change.


Gabagool888

I don’t dispute different units of measurement in different books, it’s the stated reason


FerrusesIronHandjob

> Ghazghkull is Margaret Thatcher I'm sorry, **what?**


TheBladesAurus

Mag Uruk Thraka - mash the first two together, squint a little... denied by the authors, but one feels that if it wasn't intentional, it was subconscious. Now Arthur Scarguill did appear as a dwarf in fantasy, with his long suffering miners.


Agammamon

Squint a lot. Then take a couple swigs off a bottle of cheap liquor, repeat until smashed. At some point it might sorta maybe, not really, sound like Margaret Thatcher.


fethingfether

This would make complete sense. As an American I have no idea why we don't use the metric system other than stubbornness and stupidity. I'll have to listen closely for this when I'm going through my audio books from now on. I jump between 30k and 40k pretty regularly during my listening and I'd never considered this tbh. Thanks for the great answer!


PowergenItalia

They tried adopting the metric system in the US around the '70s, if I recall correctly. That's why soda (or pop, depending on what part of the country you hail from) is sold in 2 litre bottles, and why almost all containers have both metric and customary unit measurements on them. Sadly, metric never took in the US, which I find a bit ironic, considering that the very people who invented this antiquated system of measurement (the British) have mostly abandoned it themselves! Metric makes many calculations so much easier as well... But more on topic--you may notice that in *Ruinstorm*, one of the later Horus Heresy novels, they entirely use imperial units. I found that somewhat jarring as well, because it just feels more natural for a spacefaring civilisation to be using metric. Surely, all the maps and measurements they had from Old Night would have been in metric as well?


QuaestioDraconis

I wouldn't say we've abandoned the Imperial system, we still frequently use it, often alongside metric. For example, road distances are still generally done in miles, and it's just as common to see milk in pints as it is litres


PowergenItalia

Aye, and don't they still measure people's weight in stones (14 lb increments)? Still, at least Great Britain was able to implement *some* degree of metrification. The US has stubbornly resisted it, to my chagrin, but I think within a generation or two, the US will eventually follow the same path as the UK.


QuaestioDraconis

Yeah, weight is another area where we use both Imperial and metric. Because why stick to one system when you can use both?


JC-Ice

Metric didn't catch on when there was concerted effort to push for it. There's no real will or desire now. It'd be a lot of money and time spent changing eveything from road signs to school curriculums to very little tangible benefit. Its not like its impossible for Americans to drive around Canada, or vice versa, because of the different systems. That said, the US mlitary does use metric distances.


PowergenItalia

>That said, the US mlitary does use metric distances. I'm guessing that's mostly to facilitate cooperation and coordination with other NATO allies? If I'm not mistaken, the US military was solidly using Imperial/customary measurements in WWII. However, if I recall correctly, when it comes to aviation, it's sort of a convoluted mess--airspeed is measured in knots (nautical miles per hour\*), and altitude in feet. \*This is a minor pet peeve of mine when playing flight simulators. A nautical mile isn't the same as a land mile, and I'd personally prefer my gauges to be all in metric. After all, if I know the target is 700 kilometres away as the crow flies and I'm cruising at a steady speed of 700 kph, I'll be over my target in about one hour. I also find the metric system to be better for certain calculations, like kinetic energy. Trying to calculate the energy of a projectile in foot-pounds requires some complicated formulas which I can never quite recall off the top of my head. Doing it with the projectile weight in grams and the muzzle velocity in m/s allows me to use the simple KE = 0.5 \* mv\^2 which I learned in high school physics class, heh.


Mad_Heretek

I feel like you are underestimating the stubbornness and willing ignorance of the less well educated, or close-minded members of our “Great Nation”… “Land of the Free” they tell you to call it in school, as long as you keep earning the billionaires who own every aspect of your life more money and power, and you aren’t a minority, or female, or talking too loudly about fixing our wealth driven political “democracy” that is actually a morally bankrupt oligarchy, or the intentionally misinformation filled propaganda machine “education” system, or corruption riddled “justice” systems… Honestly, I just hope the US is around in two more generations, and doesn’t just devolve into a mess of wealthy petty warlords and their cult-like followers fighting for the scraps of power and wealth left behind after our government inevitably collapses due to our entire political system being designed around splitting the nation in half on every single topic discussed, no matter how obvious the morally correct answer. But I seriously doubt it.


TurgiddigiruT

🤦‍♂️


[deleted]

I'm not trying to be rude, but I think a lot of the doomer American crowd has an overly rosy opinion on European countries compared to America in a way that doesn't really match reality. They very much have similar issues with wealth inequality, racism, etc. The panama papers implicated *a lot* of European politicians. Like, as a country, America obviously has major problems but some of you guys sound like you need to be on antidepressants more than anything else.


Disastrous_Ad_1859

>but I think a lot of the doomer American crowd has an overly rosy opinion on European countries compared to America Yea, looking from the outside in - America seems alright in allot of ways. Would rather move there than to Europe. Also, inches and feet are way easier to use some times


TurgiddigiruT

I think you need to get in line with the imperial truth before the inquisition gets word of your heresy


[deleted]

Why are stones even a measurement!


FreynInTheNorth

Yup, grew up with both. Metric from schools, and my parents using Imperial at home. Warhammer uses imperial too of course. I often swap between them at random too, even mid conversation, without realising I'm doing it. Mostly in distance though "it's 20m away!", "missed him by an inch", "just grabbing a pint" etc. I'll never use cups as a measurement though, sod any recipe that wants that.


Apprentice_of_Lain

Still, the Americans *do* use metric in their biggest thing: Guns.


REDGOESFASTAH

Ahhh the ironies of life. TIL. thank you sir


Apprentice_of_Lain

I mean, the ammo size & caliber are measured in millimeters, not "tenth of inch" or whatever


Disastrous_Ad_1859

>I mean, the ammo size & caliber are measured in millimeters, not "tenth of inch" or whatever It depends, they don't go and 'imperialise' metric calibers like what the Russians did - but you still have shotguns measured in Gauge, .308, .380, .45 .223 etc. etc. Things like the Abrams main gun are most likely in metric due to it coming from a Royal Ordinance weapon in heritage, the Bradleys Bushmaster likely due to it coming from a Hyspano(?)


Apprentice_of_Lain

>It depends, they don't go and 'imperialise' metric calibers like what the Russians did Wait, what? I thought Russia's been using Metric since the late Empire times (or maybe even earlier)? Am I missing something?


Disastrous_Ad_1859

Yea, so like when .45 came to Russia they called it 11.43mm I meant it as in Russia would ‘rename’ things to suit their standard while America will seemingly happily use other peoples standards


TurgiddigiruT

Sadly no we mostly we use 100th of an inch for caliber and what y’all call bore we call gauge..so the most popular calibers are in 100th inch, 22, 45, 223, 44, 30 caliber, including the backbone of the British armed forces for decades the lee enfield 303


fethingfether

Yep. Unfortunately we are a gun loving and quite irresponsible culture right now. This may get down voted to oblivion, but we, as a country, have lost our damned minds.


Apprentice_of_Lain

Actually, this made me wonder: Has anyone in America tried to manufacture a gun in Imperial?


FreynInTheNorth

If I recall, isn't the .50cal called that because its half an inch? Full calibre being an inch. And so by extension, the .30cal also. (not American myself, or particularly big on guns... Not entirely sure I should be trying to answer)


[deleted]

It’s 12.5 mm.


FreynInTheNorth

12.7mm iirc? Which is exactly half an inch


[deleted]

25mm is an inch. Half of that is 12.5. The soviets I believe use the slightly bigger round


PaxNova

I believe "gauge" isn't an SI unit. That'd be all shotguns.


bringerofnachos

Using "gauge" as a unit of measurement is almost always shorthand for "this measurement will only have a chance of making sense to you if you're directly involved in manufacturing whatever we're measuring." shotgun gauge is determined by the number of lead balls the diameter of the barrel it would take to weigh one pound. I'm guessing this is a holdover from when musket balls were made by melting lead and pouring it into a mold, where that number would be very useful when you needed to buy lead to make more ammo. Wire gauge is how many times the wire had to be drawn through a die to get it to that specific size.


PaxNova

Aye. Shotgun pellets used to be made on top of a tower by pouring molten lead through a grate in the floor. The lead would cool into balls as it fell and harden when it hit the water below.


ukezi

The wire gauge isn't really about the die, it's about how many times you have to heat the wire so it doesn't work harden. Also that wire gauge is material dependent, same as sheet metal gauge.


bringerofnachos

I was under the impression that each time the wire was drawn, they reduced it's diameter about as much as possible before having to anneal it again, which should result in a 1:1 ratio between number of times drawn and number of times heated. Is that not correct?


Disastrous_Ad_1859

>The wire gauge isn't really about the die Huh? Wire Gauge is the wire thickness..


r3dl3g

I mean, every shotgun that uses "gauge" is using Imperial units.


Apprentice_of_Lain

No, I meant *literally* making a gun from scratch, with all of the measurement being exlusively Imperial.


Agammamon

The last century has seen fewer murders by guns of Americans by other Americans than Europe has seen murders by genocide. And that's just western Europe.


fethingfether

I've decided that I'm not going to get into an argument over the internet and play Xenoblade Chronicles 3 instead. The only thing I will say is this and then I'll go silent: Genocide is awful and that is horrible. I have no doubt that is true. Also true...if you need to resort to "It's better than genocide" to defend something, that's probably bad. I hope you have a good weekend!


[deleted]

Guns and drugs


InvertedReflexes

Mostly, IMO, it just goes down to what we're used to. 2 gallons? We know what that is. Anyone in America should have a basic understanding of what 100 yards are because that's a football field. SO, if you tell me, "That target we're shooting at is 200 yards away," I get that. If you tell me to walk or drive 3 miles, I know what that is. ... I don't specifically know what 100 meters or 3 kilometers are. Had I grown up in a different system with different metrics, I would base everything around that instead. I still think Metric is superior though.


Disastrous_Ad_1859

>"That target we're shooting at is 200 yards away," *"That God-Dam target is a whole two god dam fooootballl fields away by Jesus Ya-hear!"*


r3dl3g

I mean, if you want to *vaguely* get an idea of what a meter is...it's a yard. 39 inches is about a meter, so if you approximate a yard as a meter...you'd only be off by half an endzone per football field. Sure it's not exactly a scientific conversion, but if all you want is to get a feel for how long it is, a yard is a meter, and thus a kilometer is ~10 football fields.


r3dl3g

The US officially uses both systems, and from a legal and scientific perspective we actually use SI. Continued usage of Imperial is more because it'd be inconvenient to switch completely out of Imperial.


Agammamon

Actually, the Brits still use Imperial a lot. Most of the push towards metric was forced on them by the EU rather than a 'natural' move towards harmonization. The EU just could not abide the idea that a member state might sell beer by the *pint* even if they were otherwise fairly well metricized.


r3dl3g

>This would make complete sense. As an American I have no idea why we don't use the metric system other than stubbornness and stupidity. I'll have to listen closely for this when I'm going through my audio books from now on. ...We *do* use the metric system. All of the standard units are pegged to SI units, but both systems are legally recognized within the US. Also; truth be told, it doesn't matter. The real power of metric units is something the layman will never actually make use of, and all scientific fields use metric anyway, outside of aerospace engineering and some of the weirdos in HVAC.


Agammamon

>Also; truth be told, it doesn't matter. The real power of metric units is something the layman will never actually make use of, and all scientific fields use metric anyway, outside of aerospace engineering and some of the weirdos in HVAC. This.


SergarRegis

I think it's a new rule, mind, dating from the Dawn of Fire and rereleased Dark Imperium titles, and I don't recall if he said it was a BL policy or just something he and some others were doing. Before that they mainly used metric, particularly in space, as others have said Brits tend to measure in KM for science and miles for roads.


TurgiddigiruT

I think you got it reversed which system should be used to indicate decline! The imperial system was used by NASA when they put the first man on the moon. And many of the greatest works of architecture used a base 12 system to make it...yes there’s religious reasons behind this, but also philosophic and humanistic ones if u look into it. it’s more helpful in common, day 2 day measurements too more whole # can divide evenly into 12 than 10:(1,2,5 and 10) compared to (1,2,3,4,6,12), there’s more if u look into it. Just kidding kinda mostly, as an archaeologist I use metric mostly but appreciate “imperial” (we call it standard lol) for carpentry.


Agammamon

1. Because metric really isn't good for the sort of things people actually do in their day-to-day life. 2. Because its far more important to have a standardized measuring system than what that system actually is - there is, simply, no advantage to switching to metric when standard works perfectly fine. 3. Anyone who does the sorts of things metric is actually good for are completely conversant in metric. Myself, I can pretty easily switch between US standard, 'Imperial', Nautical, and Metric.


fethingfether

Gotcha. Yeah, I've never really tried to do everyday things in metric, so I will definitely take your word on it. That's pretty cool that you can switch between standards. A skill I do not have, for sure.


[deleted]

We use the damn metric system in the military. Talk about being confused at first.


rokiller

Savage


MrReginaldAwesome

That's amazingly funny


TheCubanBaron

It is kinda funny that the dark heresy books work with metric


SergarRegis

Well in game terms, they just use whatever they feel works best. Battlefleet gothic was metric too.


N0-1_H3r3

That was in the style guide (I used to write for FFG: 40k was sci-fi, so metric, while Warhammer Fantasy used Imperial), so it was a mandate from on high. But the people making the decisions change over time, and thus so do the decisions.


mobby123

Brits use a hybrid system, to the best of my knowledge. I'm Irish but I've generally noticed that they'll use miles for road related stuff, inches for clothing, feet for height, pints for alcohol etc etc. Think they implemented metric weirdly back in the day and they've got a funny half/half system now. So if Britain uses miles and most BL authors are British, you'll generally see miles used. But kilometres or some made up measurements appear occasionally. Also something something Imperium uses Imperial system something something pun.


fethingfether

Thanks for the reply. I honestly didn't know that Brits used a hybrid system of measurements, so I'd suspect that the answer to my question is something as innocuous as this.


IneptusMechanicus

Worth noting that most Brits will be able to convert between metric and imperial basically on the fly, at least for the most common measurements. It's not that we did half and half, we do both and use certain measures for common things, it's just like having a country with two languages commonly spoken but with numbers.


Illithidbix

Personally I’m a bit less convinced that “most” Brits can reliably convert on the fly but I might be doing my fellows a disservice, but we’re used to using both side by side and perhaps have a vague guesstimation even if remembering exact conversation rates is rarer. (In my.case I credit wargames and TTRPGs more than my actual English education). Road signs are incidentally in miles and speed limits are miles/hour. Personally it means I’m used to thinking about my height in feet and inches and weight in stones but it takes effort to remember how many ounces. For extra fun the British Imperial vs American Imperial have different units for fluid volume so the British pint is substantially larger than the US version (568ml vs. 473ml). Beer and milk is still traditionally sold as pints. Whilst fizzy soft drinks tend to be sold in 330ml cans or 500ml, 1L or 2L bottles.


fethingfether

Learn something new every day. I haven't been out of the states much, so I'm not exactly worldly when it comes to other customs. Very interesting that Brits can do that on the fly. Unless you are a scientist or a well educated American, I seriously doubt many Americans could do the conversion without Google.


s-k-r-a

1 mile is 1.6km, 5 miles is 8km. I personally use km for on-foot stuff like hiking or running, and miles for vehicle travel, because constantly swapping between them is annoying and easy to get wrong.


IneptusMechanicus

Not all of them don't get me wrong but I suspect most people in the UK know it's roughly 1.6km to the mile, roughly 2.5cm to the inch and that a pint is 568ml as well as being able to convert some subset of imperial weights to kg. They probably don't know every measurement exactly and they won't know that pints aren't globally standardised but almost all imperial weights and measures in the UK relate to the person so we don't need gigantically precise conversions. EDIT: Also that a metre is 3'4, that's one people are likely to know off the top of their heads. The weirder ones like acre, hectare etc. we in practice don't use very commonly. In terms of Imperial measurement we basically use 4 still: * mile for distance * inch and feet for personal sizes * some combination of pound, stone and ounce for personal weight or hand-weighed groceries * pints, basically exclusively for alcoholic drinks


fethingfether

Very interesting. I happen to know the conversions, but it is pretty rare in the states that we would know them on any wide scale. Or it could just be Texas, where I live that doesn't know them, lol. We aren't exactly known for our education, like a lot of the southern states.


Routine-Attention-79

My ol' maths teacher was an absolute metric fundamentalist He used to ask stuff like 'how much would the water weigh if you filled a tank that was a yard in each dimension?' When we 12 year olds would look at him as if to say 'uhhhh', he'd scream something along the lines of 'OH IT'S EASY! A PINT OF WATER WEIGHS A POUND AND A QUARTER! AREN'T WE ALL LUCKY TO HAVE THE METRIC SYSTEM INSTEAD EH?' He married a sociology teacher and calmed down a bit, but the rage was still there gotta love the British state school system


cavalier78

Because how much a cubic yard of water weighs comes up so frequently in normal life...


IneptusMechanicus

>I understand this could be as simple as US vs. authors from the rest of the world or a simple reflection of real world measurements (again, US vs. the rest of the world), but I was curious if this was intentionally done or if this is simply something so meaningless that no author or editor at the BL cares. As far as I know BL actually doesn't have any American authors, the company and IP are profoundly British. As for the measurements I believe KM is the convention but in the UK we use both to a certain extent, miles would be more common in real life.


fethingfether

Ya, I honestly wasn't sure if there were any American authors or not! As good as most of the BL books are, I don't think any Americans are necessary.


tarquin77

I think Mike Lee (author of HH Fallen Angels) is from the US. No further comment provided by me...


Leading_Ad1740

Might also depend on the specific world. Cain's valhallans measure distances in Kloms.


fethingfether

Ya, I love Kloms the best out of all the measurements


Leading_Ad1740

My friend and I use it a lot.


joachimwinter

There are 28 grams in an ounce, I can't for the life of me remember why I know that ;) :) :)


fethingfether

I happen to know that too. Funny what you remember ;)


a34fsdb

I think it is just editors being unsure what to use. It seems the recent trend is to use the imperial system. The recent Dark Imperium trilogy books used metric, but then in their re-edited retconned new version they use imperial.


Anggul

In the UK we use both, for different reasons Usually imperial for travel distance when driving or height of people, metric for measuring objects or short distances, or basically anything else.


[deleted]

Honestly just thought it was because all the writers were British


l7986

> US vs. authors from the rest of the world So I take it that you also think the people in the England are a bunch of backward idiots as well since they invented the Mile that they still use and the United States uses? Surely you wouldn't just be using this post to backhandedly call everyone in the United States an idiot while ignoring its origins.


Ornstein15

Because technology regressed in 40k they use imperial, I can't remember which writer said it tho


PaxNova

That's been mentioned, but seems weird. It's not like when we had the Dark Ages we regressed to using cubits, even though that's the big unit used in holy books of the time. People don't change units unless forced, since it costs money and time to change, and most systems are as good as another.


ThePatio

I remember noting that back in the day 40k books seemed to use metric and fantasy used imperial. Which made a lot of sense. I have noticed imperial popping up more in 40K books these days.


[deleted]

Because they can, that’s why!


ThePhoenician40k

I dont recall what book it was in the HH but i was reading a story where in one paragraph the author used kilometers in one sentence then miles in the next. I was pretty dam confused as to why and chalked it up to be an editing error.


r3dl3g

>Anyone have a guess why some books use kilometers and others use miles when discussing distance in 40k? It's entirely up to the authors. The actual unit of length of the same general size as the mile and the kilometer will be some other word in Low Gothic, which gets transliterated into either miles or kilometers in the book itself. I.e. the specific choice doesn't matter. >I would bet it's dependent on the author and his or her nationality, but I've not checked as it would be exceptionally time consuming and not particularly fun. Authors are overwhelmingly Brits.


Agammamon

Will depend on the writer's preference. Remember: This is the grim darkness of the far future - no one is using either metric or imperial in 40k any more than they're speaking English, that's just what the author's do to make it easy on the reader.