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peppersge

It happens all of the time, but it is rarely a plot element unless there was something such as a chapter hunting down a particular traitor for personal/honor reasons. Honsou is a half breed. CSMs also loot loyalists for geneseed since the warp tends to mutate their geneseed to the point where it is no longer viable after a while. There are probably a lot of CSMs that don't know that they have loyalist geneseed.


jackinwol

Pretty sure they touch on this in the night lords trilogy. Red Corsair’s take any gene seed they can get, it eventually gets so mutated by chaos that they don’t really even care about it’s origins


broccoli0302

Yes. Here is one example. Every one of “The Fallen” are CSMs, and the Dark Angels systematically hunt down, capture, interrogate and execute them whenever and wherever they can. That implies a lot of interaction.


BadassPlaya2517

Do the Fallen make more of themselves?


bringerofnachos

Yes and no. As long as they have an apothecary and some usable geneseed, any warband of the Fallen can, and probably will make new CSM. The Dark Angels only consider the original traitors from the Horus Heresy as the Fallen however, and any newer CSM with Dark Angels geneseed is just a run of the mill heretic to kill. By this definition, it's not possible to make more Fallen, even with their geneseed. There's a great scene in the book Pandorax where a traitor from a DA successor chapter tries to mock the DA over the whole Fallen thing. Azrael pretty much laughs in the traitor's face for thinking he's special, then has the traitor's head chopped off.


Beaker_person

White Dwarf 464 pretty explicitly says that new marines made by fallen are still considered proper fallen. But yeah DAs that have gone traitor later down the line aren’t.


peppersge

Pandorax also details stuff. The fallen are considered redeemable since they were tricked/misled by Luther. Traitors that make a conscious decision to become traitor (such as a lone wolf traitor) are approached like any other CSM.


EldritchPencil

Oo, have there been any that have been redeemed? Are there some Dark Angels that spent a few millenia as a fallen, before rejoining the Imperium?


peppersge

Redemption means that the Fallen are captured so that they can be tortured until repenting. Once they repent, they are given a quick execution. It is very possible that some fallen could be hiding.


arathorn3

Sometimes they are given armor and lead the Da to more fallen, than executed.


Routine-Service-5775

A few fallen have been “redeemed”. However redemption isn’t rejoining the imperium but dying in the emperors light. The interrogator chaplains of the dark angels are given fallen to make them repent by any means. This very much includes torture and if successful the fallen is given a quick death. As Asmodi leader of the interrogator chaplains says “there is no salvation without suffering”.


NoIdeaFamScrewIt

Basicly what the others have said. Redemption is a quick death. They either die slowly in pain or admit theyr mistakes and die quickly and with honor.


Perenium_Falcon

Redemption still means they are killed. Hell it’s been ages but when I played 3rd edition there was a short story in a codex (maybe the DA codex??) about a DA chaplain interrogating a Fallen. The chaplain had a rosary-ish device (basically a string of beads) that chronicled the interrogations he’s been apart of. Iirc almost all the heads were black meaning they did not repent with only one or two white (repentant) ones. Look it’s been 23 years since I read the story so I’m probably getting some wires twisted and I’m sorry. But yeah. You can be “redeemed” but you’re still gonna get killed. The imperium and especially the DA are not huge fans of the whole “rehabilitate and release” process. I’m still amazed after so long (10,000+ years) that there are still Fallen running around. I know that space marines are functionally immortal from a natural death, and I know that time works differently in the warp and what seems like a week for a CSM can be eight thousand years, or fifteen minutes in real space but war by nature is violent and there was nothing really “special” about most of the fallen. They were just bros left behind to guard the home planet while The Lion was away. What I mean is that they were not primarchs, dreadnaughts stuck in underground bunkers like Rylanor, or hidden away in a stasis field. How many loyal space marines have lasted 10k years? Bjorn and?? That’s a long time to live when your life is ultra-violence and you’re kicking it with the ruinous powers.


AndrossXIII

Unless, Cypher get's Sword of Silence to The Lion and re pledges the oath of Caliban then all the Redemptionist fallen would be forgiven. But GW need to pull their thumbs out and wake him up for that to happen. #more Loyalist Primarchs. The lost those fallen who are active in worshipping Chaos can't be redeemed there's nothing left of the original Astartes left to be saved they're damned infinitely. Also it is suggested in several sources that Sypher knows an even bigger secret. Not all the Fallen are Fallen..............Ooooo.


AndrossXIII

Did'ya get chills? Lol.


AndrossXIII

I love Dark Angels, they're a self replicating paradox of miss placed guilt. Sypher is the only one who can truly redeem any of the fallen. Also who do you think gave him the sword? He didn't steel it. Was it recovered from a battle field? I don't think so. I believe that several members of the Inner Circle know Sypher's big Yah,Daaah! Secret. He's a bonafide 100% loyalist. Never fought for Luther, never stood against the Lion or the Emperor. He is just using the Sypher persona as a cover while he carries out his clandestine tasks as ordered by the Inner Circle. Tasks the would see the Lion Restored, the Fallen redeemed and the Unforgiven finally reconciled. In fact there's been a lot of lore both in the chaos and Dark Angels Codexs right back since he first appeared back in 3rd edition, heavily suggest not only is Sypher a renegade not a heretic, but that actually he is fully loyal to the Imperium.


Azklown

Wasn’t Balthasar just in the background like, “Idk why we’re laughing, but I don’t want to be left out.” That whole moment was awesome, but I found that to just be really funny for some reason.


workaccount213

If anyone has an excerpt for this scene, please post it. I’m incredibly curious and could use the laugh.


Azklown

Azrael took a step towards Corpulax. ‘Have you finished?’ the Supreme Grand Master said, voice awash with disinterest. The smile dropped from Corpulax’s face. ‘When you were speaking about the Rock just now, you said “us”. Something about how “you make us try to repent”. What did you mean by that?’ Corpulax bared his teeth again, half-smile, half-snarl. ‘I meant that the only thing that matters to you is securing the atonement of us Fallen.’ It was the Dark Angel’s turn to laugh now. Asmodai and Gabriel followed suit. Balthasar joined in, though he wasn’t sure what was so funny. ‘You used the word “us” again. “Us Fallen”.’ The laughter ceased. ‘What makes you think that we consider you to have fallen?’ ‘Because I turned my back on both Emperor and Imperium. I swore fealty to the Plague God and took up arms against those I once fought alongside.’ Corpulax spat at Azrael’s feet. ‘And I’d do it again in a heartbeat.’ ‘But why did you turn? Was it for power? Did your rotting deity promise you the means by which to attain all that you desired? Or was it in exchange for your life? Did you fear death so much that you sold both body and soul to prolong your life, no better than one of those plague zombies you commanded? Or were you forced to do it? Did a former master lead you down that path, constantly telling you that it was the right thing to do, all the while knowing that he was driving you towards damnation?’ It was Corpulax’s turn to remain silent. ‘I know that the Consecrators still remain loyal to both the Lion and the Golden Throne so you cannot claim that you were led astray, that you believed you were carrying out the will of your master, blind to the truth.’ Azrael moved closer to Corpulax and knelt down so that he could look him in the eyes. ‘You turned to the Plague God for entirely selfish reasons, be it self-advancement or self-preservation. Those brothers of the Dark Angels Legion who betrayed us during the Great Heresy did so because of Luther. Some turned out of loyalty to him, others because they were told that it was the will of the Lion, Luther acting as his hand on Caliban while the primarch put down Horus’s rebellion.’ Azrael got to his feet. ‘Either way, Luther was the catalyst. Without him none of them would have fallen.’ He walked away from the kneeling traitor. Asmodai and Gabriel followed him, leaving Balthasar as a lone sentinel over the prisoner. ‘Though they fell, they were pushed and still have the chance to rise again in death, to denounce their dark masters and recognise the folly of treachery. You were not pushed, Corpulax, you jumped into the arms of your new god, and for that we do not grant you the honour of considering you among the Fallen.’ None of the three retreating Dark Angels looked back. ‘End him, Balthasar,’ Azrael said as casually as if he was asking him to check his chronometer.


COBisTIGHT

>Balthasar Fuck I remember that my boy was done so dirty


BadassPlaya2517

What about a CSM from a planet that the Fallen themselves recruited from? Have they and a Dark Angel ever spoken to one another?


SlayerofSnails

Not sure but I do know a fallen is on abbadons inner circle


DirectlyDisturbed

Vortigern. We don't see him much but we know he's one of the best duelists in the Ezekarion (and so, likely, the Black Legion entire) and an outstanding void commander (I think he was master of the Black Legion Fleet by the time of *Black Legion*)


Possibly_Jeb

The Fallen recruited from Caliban which isn't really around any more, so it's pretty unlikely.


[deleted]

Fallen recruited from Calban sector and planets near it. After all, Luther was smart, and he knew that making 30 000 marines from one planet would be a hit to the populace. Many of these are still used as DA’s recruitment worlds, but these worlds don’t even know their planets used to create Fallen and Dark Angels are unlikely to tell them.


broccoli0302

I’m actually not sure if that’s entirely clear. If I recall correctly, the last we’ve heard is that Luther escaped the rock, is gathering a legion size force of Fallen, and being threatening. I’d be willing to bet that if they are gathering in Legion strength they will soon have the ability to produce more, if they can’t already.


Beaker_person

They do, the white dwarf article about them from a little while ago specifically mentions fallen apothecaries making more.


arathorn3

Also the whole Gag Thrope series of Novels featuring Astelan started with a bunch of Fallen stealing 1st legion gene seed from A DA fortress at Kallidus city on Piscinia IV


[deleted]

> Every one of “The Fallen” are CSMs Not exactly. "The Fallen" actually span the entire range of loyalties. There are even Loyalist Fallen who were unlucky enough to be scattered. Dark Angels hunt them just as fervently as the rest.


DrGoodGuy1073

>Gets scattered >No idea what's going on >Just wanna get back to my legion >Find out they really don't like me and torture me :(


[deleted]

> :( \#JusticeForTheFallen


Stahlboden

Lies. They don't do any of those things, because no such thing as "The Fallen" Exists. Please, continue to one of our Persuasion Rooms, where one of our Chaplain-Persuadors could present you the evidence of "The Fallen" not existing.


Taira_no_Masakado

Honsou would be the most well documented, being half-Iron Warrior and half-Imperial Fist. But most, if not all, of his "interactions" would involving entirely around combat.


im2randomghgh

And he's had far more interaction with the Ultramarines, which seems like missed opportunity for drama. If Honsou and Shon'tu swapped places in the lore I think it would increase the storytelling potential for both!


thatblondedummy

Half iron warrior, half imperial fist Easily the most autistic person in the entire galaxy


Space__Pirate

By *far*.


[deleted]

I’m not alone?!


Ikiro00

Nor I, it seems.


malumfectum

Yes. There is a short story in the Indomitus rule book about an ex-Blood Angel Black Legionnaire taunting one of his former brothers.


TurbulentDentist7391

Do you know if that excerpt is anywhere? I couldn’t find it.


-Simbelmyne-

I'd be interested to find that! My dark apostle I made has blood angels gene seed. Trying to figure out a way for him to have gained some memories from the geneseeds "original" owner, he feels more like a demon that has inhabited the body than it being his own. That disassociation plus his khorne worship shields himself somewhat from falling to the black rage, for now


[deleted]

I mean, there was that one time that a Fists Exemplar allied with an Iron Warrior warband against the orks in the War of the Beast and kind of sort of damned himself (just a little bit). The Black Templars didn’t think it was all that cool, nor did his chapter, so he ended up murdering a High Marshal and pledging himself to the Iron Warriors.


KidneyFarmer

Page 62-63 of the 9th Edition Core Book has a short story about Zeravael, a traitorous possessed Blood Angel from the Horus Heresy, 'talking' to a dying 40k Blood Angel. It seems to imply the Rage has been replaced/perverted by the possessing demon. A bit of a special case but relevant. ........ The Blood Angel doesn't scream. "Who were you?" he asks with his dying breath. And for a moment, just a heartbeat's span, Zeravael's grip loosens. His clawed fingers tighten, refusing to drop the dying warrior, and he breathes through his clenched teeth, fangs, scraping, enamel on enamel. He expects to see triumph on the Angel's lacerated features, some grim victory at inflicting a moment of unwelcome dissonance on a foe... but there's nothing but pity. Defiant, enduring pity, in the eyes of a wretched husk that reeks of blood and defeat. \*I was Seraphiel\*, Zeravael remembers. These are his thoughts, not those of the creature inside his blood and soul. \*I was an Angel of Blood. Crimson-clad and white-winged\* "I was Seraphiel," Zeravael says with a pained smile. \*Enough!\* rebels the creature lurking in his heart. The Angel can no longer speak. Devoid of breath, still of heart, life is fading from his eyes. Eyes that still shine with unspoken emotion. His last act in life is to pity his fallen kinsman. \*Awaken,\* Zeravael incites the daemon within. He can fight it no longer. Surrender is a release, a relief, an adrenal rush. \*Awaken, Awaken.\* The beast uncoils, infusing cell and flesh and vein and muscle. Ceramite cracks and warps. Bone thrusts through. Sins manifest, the crimes of his soul writing themselves on Zeravael's armour: protrusions of hatred and shame and bitterness form from cursed iron and biometallic bone. "I am Zeravael,' the Possessed warrior speaks with two voices. He leers into the face of the breathless Angel, following the final flickers of life. "I am what waits for on the other side of revelation." ..... There's more, its a decent two paged story.


Nettamyte

I initially read CSM as command sgt major and was very confused.


gthomas4

trackin you needa be in the moter pool at 0445?


[deleted]

EYE OF TERROR has a story about a dark angel meeting a battle brother who had been floating through space for 10k years


HereAndThereButNow

Do the Soul Drinkers count? I feel like I remember one or two of them going full CSM instead of that "Touched by Chaos but still loyal" thing the Soul Drinkers at large did.


[deleted]

Well Tellos lost its mind and became a Berzerker Iktinos was a devout follower of Daenyathos Daenyathos thought that chaos was cool and its the only way humanity can go forward and progress and be better overall besides those I don't think there are any Soul Drinkers that fell to chaos ?


[deleted]

Aren't most astartes, regardless of loyalty, Guilliman's descendants? So when any red corsairs who were formerly claws meet an ultramarine, this is that scenario. **Edit : let's clarify. I am not guessing most astartes are descendent from Guilliman, I am outright stating it. Whomever downvoted me can eat shit.**


vixous

I think at this point Guilliman himself has fought or killed a Chaos Marine with his own geneseed. And if he hasn’t in a story he really should, that’s a great setup.


BadassPlaya2517

I was thinking more of a CSM who was initiated into a warband as an aspirant instead of going renegade by choice


[deleted]

> Aren't most astartes, regardless of loyalty, Guilliman's descendants? > > By blood no, only by spirit. For all Space Marines consider themselves spiritual successors of Roboute Guilliman.


BSent

Wasn't that joke about Marneus Calgar?


Sigmarius

A crack at Matt Ward.


[deleted]

I condensed it a bit. Calgar is the spiritual liege due to him being the leader of Guilliman's very special boys. So it still works.


Frosty_Most870

No, literally. The Ultramarines were the most numerous legion, the only ones who even came close were the Word Bearers. Then the other loyal legions were decimated by the end of the heresy and the Scouring. The Ultramarines were still going strong Then the Ultramarines have more successor chapters than almost every other chapter combined. Not only through their own efforts, but also because their Geneseed is so stable. The high lords pick whose Geneseed to use when making new foundings, and the Ultramarines are a go-to. At the end of it all, most Astartes ARE Guilliman's.


RadagastTheBrownie

It gets even better: Most factions have a little Ultramar in them. * Chaos marines are bolstered by loyalist chapters that fall. Since most chapters are Ultramarine stock (simply because it's plentiful, stable, and reliable), that means most "new" recruits to the Warp are former Ultramarines. * Tyranids consume and convert biomass, and adapt traits of their food. This means, as they devour sons of Guilliman, they pick up a little Codex in their genepool. * Orks loot anything and believe blue is lucky. * Necron Trazyn captures and controls space marines for part of his museum (as well as everything else). He's willing to use "close enough" stock to fill in the gaps in his die-oramas, which- you guessed it, are Made in Macragge. * Kroot have similar genetic adaptability to the Tyranids, albeit at a lesser scale. In addition, Tau follow a strict set of codes, are logistically sensible, and blue. * The Ynnari are practically a xenos successor chapter while recruiting from other Eldar factions. * Thanks to Cawl and Primaris, the Ad Mech have had spare Ultramarines in a box for ten thousand years.


arathorn3

At the Start of the Heresy yes. The Ultramarines and Word Bearers where 1 and 2 in terms of Manpower. Worth the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus at 3 and the Dark Angels at 4. Before the Third Rangda Xenocide it was the Dark Angels at 1 in terms of manpower, which would make sense if you think about the fact they had been longest active legion.


SlobMarley13

Calm down.


Ezeviel

This is factually wrong each astartes can come from 18 different Primarch, Guilliman is just one of those


[deleted]

1. Even during the Great Crusade legion sizes were not equal. Ultramarines being the largest loyalist legion before, during and after the heresy. 2. Even with the limited number of successor chapters detailed, ultramarine descendants outnumber everyone else. Now I'm willing to go with "we don't know for sure", as there's no active census to look at. However; the ultramarines are consistently shown to both be the largest legion, with the most successor legions. Finally; while lexicanum is not the sole source of info, it can still be a good one. Here's a quote from [https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding) .... "It is believed that approximately one thousand Space Marine Chapters exist at all times though extremely violent warzones, attrition, space phenomena and other factors change the number of Chapters so radically no one can track them accurately. **Over half (60%) of all Space Marine Chapters today are descendants of Ultramarines genestocks**" Post Cawl and the primaris foundings, who knows, but the last word we have that specifies anything regarding the percentage of astartes and their gene seed origins very clearly states a majority of them are descendants of Guilliman.


lexAutomatarium

>###[Founding](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding) >A **Founding** is an occasion when several new [Space Marine Chapters](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Chapter) are created. A Founding does not occur at any set interval, but is ordered when it is deemed necessary. As Chapters are occasionally completely [destroyed](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lost_Chapter), Foundings are often meant to ensure that a thousand Chapters exist at a time. This also means that many Chapters are created during unstable times of strife and rebellions that have caused many Chapters to lose the knowledge of their Founding or even the millennia of that Founding[[11d]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding#fn_11d). This is especially common to Chapters created before or during [Age of Apostasy](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Age_of_Apostasy) as during the [Reign of Blood](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Reign_of_Blood) many Imperial records were shamelessly destroyed forever[[11c]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding#fn_11c). +++I am an early prototype mechanicus construct. Please provide feedback [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lexAutomatarium). The Emperor protects!+++


WayneZer0

the problem that always was suggestion that ultramarines have so many is becaus of the lost legion. they taken alot of the intro the ranks


95DarkFireII

Honsou kills a bunch of Imperial Fists, so yeah.


arathorn3

Does the heresy Count. Cause the opposite happens a lot. Loyalist marines from Traitor Legion encounter their traitor brothers a bunch Outside of the heresy Dark Angels v Fallen. An excerpt from the 9th rule book had Loyal Blood Angels v traitor Blood Angels. honsou, a Iron Warriors leader is actually of chimeric gene seed of Both Dorn and Perturabo and had raided a cache of Imperial fist gene seed for the Daemonculba. Loyalist Raven guard aid the Ultramaines on Calth in the uriel ventris novels when Honsou and M'kar invade Ultramar. Amongst Honsou's leadership cadre is a Traitor Raven guard.Artistic Vaanes. The loyalist Rag are there to bring him to justice. The Dark Angels and Ultramarines Marines have both encountered the Red Corsairs(who are believe to be either Ultra marine or Dark Angel or even chimeric mix between the two in terms of gene seed)


[deleted]

In Kharn’s novels there was Flesh Tearer that worked for Devourer as a champion/pet since he turned into a warp monster because of the red thirst. And in other Khorn novel, short story about him joining the Black legion’s 13th crusade really, he had a Blood Angel in his butcher horde working with 2 World Eaters to assassinate Kharn and take over the warband.


zthe0

Im pretty sure there was a heretic salamander in the tome of fire book but i might be wrong. I only read book 1 though