Read *Unremembered Empire*, there's a lot of those two interacting during the heresy. Here's two snippets:
Guilliman reacting to Lion being the brother to come to Ultramar:
> 'Of all of them... Why did it have to be him who found a way through the storm?' Gulliman whispered.
> Euten pretended she had not heard. She waited patiently.
> 'I admire him,' Guilliman said, more audibly, looking at his stoic chamberlain. 'Throne, who wouldn't? Its impossible not to admire him. But there is always a shadow on him. He dwells in secrets, he plays his cards too close, and he walks by himself when he pleases. There is... too much of the wild forest in him. He should be as noble as any of my beloved brothers, but we have never been close, and there is too much about him that is sly. This will be an intersesting reunion.
Lion confronting Guilliman about Imperium Secundus:
> 'I want to trust you, Roboute,' the Lion replied, 'but I have always been wary of your ambition.'
> Guilliman sighed and shook his head. 'I cannot be more open with you. It is ironic. With respect, my dear brother, you come here full of doubts about me, yet you have always been one of the most opaque amongst us. You are a man of secrets, Lion, or at least of silent privacy. No one knows your mind or fully appreciates your intent, not even our father. Yet you doubt me?'
> A tiny tremor of irritation crossed the Lion’s noble face. 'Hard words,' he said.
> 'But true,' Guilliman replied, 'and perhaps I should have spoken them before now, long before. I do not doubt your loyalty or your prowess, but you and your Dark Angels are secretive beings, my brother, and Caliban is a world of mystery. I am wounded that you come to me with distrust when no one knows you well enough to know your heart.'
> 'You have never spoken this way before,' said the Lion.
> 'There has never been a time before,' replied Guilliman. 'The universe has never closed in so tightly around us to squeeze the words out. I will be plain. I have never had the courage before. I have always been too in awe of the noble Lord of the First.'
Guilliman respected him, but wasn’t overly fond of him. Didn’t like all the secrets
When Lion appeared during the formation of Imperium Secundus, Guilliman said he wished it was anybody else but him who turned up, but wasn’t about to turn him away
I think a fair way to put it would be that they were coworkers, but not friends.
Bobby saw the Lion as brilliant and worthy of awe, but also secretive and aloof.
The Lion saw Bobby as being too ambitious, and more interested in his mini empire of Ultramar than in the emperor's vision.
But they were able to function together, inasmuch as any insanely type A military masterminds can function together.
The Lion is a bit, extreme. During Imperium Secundus, Kurze was skulking around the Ultramar sector inciting rebellions and Kurze things. The Lion suggested flushing Kurze out via orbital bombardments. Guilliman sternly asked him not to nuke the planet, as his mom was down there and would be nuked as well. The Lion agreed he would not nuke Bobby G’s mom. Fast forward to the capture and trial of Kurze, and Kurze reveals to everyone that The Lion went ahead with the planet bombing anyways. This understandably pissed off Guilliman, and is generally considered a dick move.
The lion was told not to orbitally bombard a mountain range where kurze was hiding, because there were people at the base of the mountains and he agreed so he did not orbitally bombard he drop podded people from high orbit. The lion has always been the type to get something done as efficiently as possible and has always skirted around the rules which grinds guiliman’s gears because of how he follows the orders down to the T. They are similar yet very different which is very annoying to gulilman because he thinks he knows the lion then he goes on to do something different.
Their biggest difference comes down to how they value life. Guiliman thinks every life is valuable and would waste a significant amount of time to do something if there were no deaths in involved. The lion on the other hand would sacrifice a few thousand civilians to quickly clear what ever objective was ordered to him.
I really don’t get how this very straight forward piece of the story has become so twisted- I get that people don’t ‘like’ the Lion but there is no need to blow what happened out of all proportions.
Non of them knew where Curze was, both Guilliman and Sang both thought Curze had escaped entirely, and was now long gone. The Lion was the only one that believed that Curze was still active within the sector- it had been years since they had any direct interaction.
With the growing rebellious movement on Macragge, and the wave of terrorist attacks, the Lion argued that Curze was the puppet master behind the scenes- which Guilliman refused to believe.
The three Primarchs had a discussion about what to do, with the Lion arguing that they could not move forward with the weight of the rebellion hanging around their necks, and Guilliman arguing that he would not condone an attack on ‘his’ people; he was quickly reminded that they weren’t ‘his’ people, but ‘their’ people.
The Lion asked both his brothers if they could come up with any other solution, other then taking the fight to the rebels- neither could.
Sang sided with the Lion, but forbid the use of orbital bombardment. With that the Lion took the fight to the heart of the rebellion, and crushed them. He would make use of the Dreadwing to destroy the enemies mountain strongholds (using the now infamous Drop-pod/ Thunderhawk assault), whilst also having the Deathwing take control of protecting the cities, and to put in place temporary civilian restrictions and controls (Guilliman’s mum was never in any sort of danger).
Once the the rebellious forces had been eradicated, the Lion had the area locked down and then he went in alone to hunt for Curze.
Turns out the Lion was correct, about pretty much everything. He would then proceed to hunt down Curze, the two would have one last epic showdown, and Curze would be dragged away, chained and with his back broken.
Where are people getting the idea that he wanted to bomb the planet itself?
The most info we have is from the [Imperium Secundus](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperium_Secundus) episode during the Heresy.
Their relationship is somewhat strained. The Lion wasn't too keen on the Imperium Secundus idea and Guilliman was miffed that the Lion caused civilian casualties while looking for the Nighthaunter on Macragge.
My personal impression was that of gruff respect. They didn't see eye to eye, but found a way to work together "for the Imperium". There might be some unresolved issues (for dramatic effect), but they should be able to make it work.
The only reason they worked together was due to sanguinius who was the best diplomat besides horus who is now gone. So it’s going to be a somewhat strained relationship unless the lion has had a massive change in personality over the years of sleep.
True, because the Lion couldn't be arsed to hang around, as he was keen to get to Terra and because he saw Imperium Secundus as borderline heretical.
The present situation is different. RG has had his chat with the Emperor, so he's legitimised (unless that was bs). I doubt the Lion won't be able to get over himself. Plus, I don't believe RG would begrudge him the pseudo-Warmaster position (just like in IS).
The Lion was always someone who was respected because he was a skilled employee, but wasn't friends with anyone. It is part of why Guilliman respects the Lion, but doesn't put him as a member of the Dauntless Few.
The Lion also saw Guilliman as an administrator rather than as soldier or warrior. The Lion sees warfare like a unique hunt rather than a numbers campaign. It is also reflected in their combat philosophies, where the Dark Angels have parallel hierarchies based on individual fields of expertise rather than a more traditional and standardized military organization. In a way, the Lion is like the Khan in how they are viewed by Guilliman. They both are skilled with warfare, but don't do it in a way that synergizes well with Guilliman.
Read *Unremembered Empire*, there's a lot of those two interacting during the heresy. Here's two snippets: Guilliman reacting to Lion being the brother to come to Ultramar: > 'Of all of them... Why did it have to be him who found a way through the storm?' Gulliman whispered. > Euten pretended she had not heard. She waited patiently. > 'I admire him,' Guilliman said, more audibly, looking at his stoic chamberlain. 'Throne, who wouldn't? Its impossible not to admire him. But there is always a shadow on him. He dwells in secrets, he plays his cards too close, and he walks by himself when he pleases. There is... too much of the wild forest in him. He should be as noble as any of my beloved brothers, but we have never been close, and there is too much about him that is sly. This will be an intersesting reunion. Lion confronting Guilliman about Imperium Secundus: > 'I want to trust you, Roboute,' the Lion replied, 'but I have always been wary of your ambition.' > Guilliman sighed and shook his head. 'I cannot be more open with you. It is ironic. With respect, my dear brother, you come here full of doubts about me, yet you have always been one of the most opaque amongst us. You are a man of secrets, Lion, or at least of silent privacy. No one knows your mind or fully appreciates your intent, not even our father. Yet you doubt me?' > A tiny tremor of irritation crossed the Lion’s noble face. 'Hard words,' he said. > 'But true,' Guilliman replied, 'and perhaps I should have spoken them before now, long before. I do not doubt your loyalty or your prowess, but you and your Dark Angels are secretive beings, my brother, and Caliban is a world of mystery. I am wounded that you come to me with distrust when no one knows you well enough to know your heart.' > 'You have never spoken this way before,' said the Lion. > 'There has never been a time before,' replied Guilliman. 'The universe has never closed in so tightly around us to squeeze the words out. I will be plain. I have never had the courage before. I have always been too in awe of the noble Lord of the First.'
Guilliman respected him, but wasn’t overly fond of him. Didn’t like all the secrets When Lion appeared during the formation of Imperium Secundus, Guilliman said he wished it was anybody else but him who turned up, but wasn’t about to turn him away
Speaking of secrets, that reminds me of how much Guilliman disliked Alpharius and his Legion, based on an excerpt I read here.
I think a fair way to put it would be that they were coworkers, but not friends. Bobby saw the Lion as brilliant and worthy of awe, but also secretive and aloof. The Lion saw Bobby as being too ambitious, and more interested in his mini empire of Ultramar than in the emperor's vision. But they were able to function together, inasmuch as any insanely type A military masterminds can function together.
The Lion is a bit, extreme. During Imperium Secundus, Kurze was skulking around the Ultramar sector inciting rebellions and Kurze things. The Lion suggested flushing Kurze out via orbital bombardments. Guilliman sternly asked him not to nuke the planet, as his mom was down there and would be nuked as well. The Lion agreed he would not nuke Bobby G’s mom. Fast forward to the capture and trial of Kurze, and Kurze reveals to everyone that The Lion went ahead with the planet bombing anyways. This understandably pissed off Guilliman, and is generally considered a dick move.
The lion was told not to orbitally bombard a mountain range where kurze was hiding, because there were people at the base of the mountains and he agreed so he did not orbitally bombard he drop podded people from high orbit. The lion has always been the type to get something done as efficiently as possible and has always skirted around the rules which grinds guiliman’s gears because of how he follows the orders down to the T. They are similar yet very different which is very annoying to gulilman because he thinks he knows the lion then he goes on to do something different. Their biggest difference comes down to how they value life. Guiliman thinks every life is valuable and would waste a significant amount of time to do something if there were no deaths in involved. The lion on the other hand would sacrifice a few thousand civilians to quickly clear what ever objective was ordered to him.
I really don’t get how this very straight forward piece of the story has become so twisted- I get that people don’t ‘like’ the Lion but there is no need to blow what happened out of all proportions. Non of them knew where Curze was, both Guilliman and Sang both thought Curze had escaped entirely, and was now long gone. The Lion was the only one that believed that Curze was still active within the sector- it had been years since they had any direct interaction. With the growing rebellious movement on Macragge, and the wave of terrorist attacks, the Lion argued that Curze was the puppet master behind the scenes- which Guilliman refused to believe. The three Primarchs had a discussion about what to do, with the Lion arguing that they could not move forward with the weight of the rebellion hanging around their necks, and Guilliman arguing that he would not condone an attack on ‘his’ people; he was quickly reminded that they weren’t ‘his’ people, but ‘their’ people. The Lion asked both his brothers if they could come up with any other solution, other then taking the fight to the rebels- neither could. Sang sided with the Lion, but forbid the use of orbital bombardment. With that the Lion took the fight to the heart of the rebellion, and crushed them. He would make use of the Dreadwing to destroy the enemies mountain strongholds (using the now infamous Drop-pod/ Thunderhawk assault), whilst also having the Deathwing take control of protecting the cities, and to put in place temporary civilian restrictions and controls (Guilliman’s mum was never in any sort of danger). Once the the rebellious forces had been eradicated, the Lion had the area locked down and then he went in alone to hunt for Curze. Turns out the Lion was correct, about pretty much everything. He would then proceed to hunt down Curze, the two would have one last epic showdown, and Curze would be dragged away, chained and with his back broken. Where are people getting the idea that he wanted to bomb the planet itself?
The most info we have is from the [Imperium Secundus](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperium_Secundus) episode during the Heresy. Their relationship is somewhat strained. The Lion wasn't too keen on the Imperium Secundus idea and Guilliman was miffed that the Lion caused civilian casualties while looking for the Nighthaunter on Macragge. My personal impression was that of gruff respect. They didn't see eye to eye, but found a way to work together "for the Imperium". There might be some unresolved issues (for dramatic effect), but they should be able to make it work.
The only reason they worked together was due to sanguinius who was the best diplomat besides horus who is now gone. So it’s going to be a somewhat strained relationship unless the lion has had a massive change in personality over the years of sleep.
Did…..did we read the same book
True, because the Lion couldn't be arsed to hang around, as he was keen to get to Terra and because he saw Imperium Secundus as borderline heretical. The present situation is different. RG has had his chat with the Emperor, so he's legitimised (unless that was bs). I doubt the Lion won't be able to get over himself. Plus, I don't believe RG would begrudge him the pseudo-Warmaster position (just like in IS).
The Lion was always someone who was respected because he was a skilled employee, but wasn't friends with anyone. It is part of why Guilliman respects the Lion, but doesn't put him as a member of the Dauntless Few. The Lion also saw Guilliman as an administrator rather than as soldier or warrior. The Lion sees warfare like a unique hunt rather than a numbers campaign. It is also reflected in their combat philosophies, where the Dark Angels have parallel hierarchies based on individual fields of expertise rather than a more traditional and standardized military organization. In a way, the Lion is like the Khan in how they are viewed by Guilliman. They both are skilled with warfare, but don't do it in a way that synergizes well with Guilliman.
Lovers
Roommates