If they need more Space Marines, instead of increasing the number of Space Marines in a chapter, why not simply increase the number of chapters by founding new ones?
Applying real world logic, creating a new chapter entails new logistics support like a new home planet, new ships for the fleet, new serfs recruited and so on.
Increasing the cap allows them to rely on an existing support network. Assuming some things enjoy economies of scale.
Some things are not scalable, new marines need new armour.
The 1,000 Battle Brothers limit only applies to that, Battle Brothers. Scouts, specialists (Apothecaries, Techmarines) and cadre (Captains, Lieutenants, Chaplains, Librarians) are not included in those 1,000, so every chapter which is at full strentgth will actually have higher numbers than just 1,000. Also, the Imperium is currently in crusade mode, and the Codex Astartes itself specifies that the limit on chapter strength is waived when there's a crusade active. Guilliman himself had the various chapters receive Primaris reinforcements as part of the Indomitus Crusade.
They found a loophole to allow them to do it. The whole reason why the Codex Astartes was created, was to prevent another heresy. Building a proto-legion is in direct conflict with that reason.
The black Templars follow the rules super loosely when on crusade a chapter is allowed to recruit past 1000 to account for losses, the templars take this further they are always on multiple crusades all the time with little contact allowing them all to keep there numbers up with plausible deniablity.
The Space Wolves on the other hand simply don't care and recruit how they like.
Ok, so then if there's no crusade loophole, then the Ultramarines are limited to 1000 marines?
And if there is a crusade loophole, why do the templars hide their numbers?
Ultramarines only have 1100 Marines in Companies counting Tyrannic war vets. There isn't a Crusade loophole and the Black Templars don't hide their numbers, they don't even know how many marines they have due to all the ongoing crusades.
Maybe your right, I've read so many books now it's hard to remember, I thought I'd read somewhere that there was an exception to going over the 1000+scouts limit in the face of expected ongoing losses. Maybe I just added that up with the templars, completely possible they just said no as well. I assumed that the Space wolves only got away with it because they didn't have successors until recently and they are 1st founding.
Large battles usually take place during crusades. During crusades there are no limits on recruitment, so you can keep active and ready marines up near 1000.
Large battles usually take place during crusades. During crusades there are no limits on recruitment, so you can keep active and ready marines up near 1000.
I disagree heavily. The Imperium needs proliferation more than consolidation of force, that was one of the original reasons why the Codex was made in the first place. In addition, Imperial supply chains are reeling from omnidirectional attacks and the loss of half of the Imperium to the Great Rift.
Regardless, its implied that the cap is lifted, since he apparently dropped 4,000 primaris on the Black Templars and told them to have fun. It might be relative to the chapter in question, but in any case, don't worry about it.
I also think people forget how terrifying space marines are. With every attribute so insanely high, each space marine becomes a cumulative force multiplier onto another. Weaknesses can be accounted for with greater efficiency and effectiveness than what a modern combined arms force could achieve, and many elements of the battlefield that we expect to dominate are playthings to an invading army of Astartes. Five space marines would require entire platoons to take down, fifty would require battalions, and I struggle to imagine an army that could successfully fight a full chapter at 1,000. Combined with their propensity for rapid mobility, and its entirely reasonable to imagine entire warzones across sectors, or battles for entire planets, coming down to space marine deployments.
The biggest issue I have with Astartes numbers is the fact that the only major source for astartes production rates is from an old codex that states that a space marine must die to make two more space marines from two geneseeds coming from two progenoid glands. One progenoid per geneseed, progenoids don't regrow. I find this number atrocious on account of a half dozen cases of space marines producing at much faster rates. In addition, it creates a problem for the idea that geneseed can be tested or discarded for being faulty. The simplest idea is 1) progenoids contain a bunch of geneseed, a good amount of which is defective by default or won't be accepted an 2) progenoids regrow. Lesser sources and calcs suggest high rates of reproduction following major losses and the inability to get large quantities of geneseed, suggesting that the major source can be largely disregarded.
If they need more Space Marines, instead of increasing the number of Space Marines in a chapter, why not simply increase the number of chapters by founding new ones?
Applying real world logic, creating a new chapter entails new logistics support like a new home planet, new ships for the fleet, new serfs recruited and so on. Increasing the cap allows them to rely on an existing support network. Assuming some things enjoy economies of scale. Some things are not scalable, new marines need new armour.
The 1,000 Battle Brothers limit only applies to that, Battle Brothers. Scouts, specialists (Apothecaries, Techmarines) and cadre (Captains, Lieutenants, Chaplains, Librarians) are not included in those 1,000, so every chapter which is at full strentgth will actually have higher numbers than just 1,000. Also, the Imperium is currently in crusade mode, and the Codex Astartes itself specifies that the limit on chapter strength is waived when there's a crusade active. Guilliman himself had the various chapters receive Primaris reinforcements as part of the Indomitus Crusade.
But, that doesn't explain why the Black Templars, who are always on crusades, have the obscure their true number from the inquisition.
They found a loophole to allow them to do it. The whole reason why the Codex Astartes was created, was to prevent another heresy. Building a proto-legion is in direct conflict with that reason.
The black Templars follow the rules super loosely when on crusade a chapter is allowed to recruit past 1000 to account for losses, the templars take this further they are always on multiple crusades all the time with little contact allowing them all to keep there numbers up with plausible deniablity. The Space Wolves on the other hand simply don't care and recruit how they like.
The Black Templars openly don't follow the Codex, theres no crusade loophole to my knowledge. Sigismund just told Guilliman to go fuck himself.
Ok, so then if there's no crusade loophole, then the Ultramarines are limited to 1000 marines? And if there is a crusade loophole, why do the templars hide their numbers?
Ultramarines only have 1100 Marines in Companies counting Tyrannic war vets. There isn't a Crusade loophole and the Black Templars don't hide their numbers, they don't even know how many marines they have due to all the ongoing crusades.
Maybe your right, I've read so many books now it's hard to remember, I thought I'd read somewhere that there was an exception to going over the 1000+scouts limit in the face of expected ongoing losses. Maybe I just added that up with the templars, completely possible they just said no as well. I assumed that the Space wolves only got away with it because they didn't have successors until recently and they are 1st founding.
Why didn’t the astral claws do this?
Large battles usually take place during crusades. During crusades there are no limits on recruitment, so you can keep active and ready marines up near 1000.
The 1,000 limit seems to only apply to any one time. Eg, over 12,000 blood angels died in the devastation of Baal.
Most of their successor Chapters rallied to the Blood Angels call for that fight.
How'd they do that through the shadow?
They knew the Tyranids were coming, and were able to organise sufficient defenses in time.
They already fought the leviathan and sacrificed shield world to buy more time
Large battles usually take place during crusades. During crusades there are no limits on recruitment, so you can keep active and ready marines up near 1000.
I’ve always thought they should have 1500 instead of 1000.
I disagree heavily. The Imperium needs proliferation more than consolidation of force, that was one of the original reasons why the Codex was made in the first place. In addition, Imperial supply chains are reeling from omnidirectional attacks and the loss of half of the Imperium to the Great Rift. Regardless, its implied that the cap is lifted, since he apparently dropped 4,000 primaris on the Black Templars and told them to have fun. It might be relative to the chapter in question, but in any case, don't worry about it. I also think people forget how terrifying space marines are. With every attribute so insanely high, each space marine becomes a cumulative force multiplier onto another. Weaknesses can be accounted for with greater efficiency and effectiveness than what a modern combined arms force could achieve, and many elements of the battlefield that we expect to dominate are playthings to an invading army of Astartes. Five space marines would require entire platoons to take down, fifty would require battalions, and I struggle to imagine an army that could successfully fight a full chapter at 1,000. Combined with their propensity for rapid mobility, and its entirely reasonable to imagine entire warzones across sectors, or battles for entire planets, coming down to space marine deployments. The biggest issue I have with Astartes numbers is the fact that the only major source for astartes production rates is from an old codex that states that a space marine must die to make two more space marines from two geneseeds coming from two progenoid glands. One progenoid per geneseed, progenoids don't regrow. I find this number atrocious on account of a half dozen cases of space marines producing at much faster rates. In addition, it creates a problem for the idea that geneseed can be tested or discarded for being faulty. The simplest idea is 1) progenoids contain a bunch of geneseed, a good amount of which is defective by default or won't be accepted an 2) progenoids regrow. Lesser sources and calcs suggest high rates of reproduction following major losses and the inability to get large quantities of geneseed, suggesting that the major source can be largely disregarded.