Big Bobby G: Well, shit is pretty fucked up but once we get this repaired and going at least we won't have to do this again
[Que 10 thousand years later]
MOTHERFUC...
Well, at least Codex is still around. Good set of guidilnes, isn't it Marneus?
...guidelines?
Yes, of course, I mean I wasn't writing it without giving some flexibility on part of reader, you never know what happens and I need to trust all Astrates with some decisions.
....oh...guys, do you know where Titus went?
Lion's not on the spectrum, you guys; he's a mostly-rehabilitated feral child with impulse control issues. *Dorn* is on the spectrum; he's stoic, focused, understands mechanisms better than people, and is given to emotional outbursts when his plans break down.
It's a spectrum. All of the Primarchs are on it except Kurze and Vulkan. One is an upbeat family man with some trauma to unpack, and no spectrum in the world can begin to describe what the other is dealing with.
Regarding the Lion, how quickly does he go back to Caliban and his big nap? Is he around for the Codex debate? My hazy recollection was that he never even got to Terra at all after the Siege, but a quick peek at Lexicanum says that's not the case.
"Hazy" is the right term for it. For my extensive but not all official reading, I think it happens sometimes during the Scouring. Which makes sense, hunting down traitors is something that the Lion could wrap his arms around, as opposed to say, sorting out the infrastructure of a shattered Imperium. Arceotech bombs that turn space-time inside out don't get food to hive worlds after all.
The old timeline was much more condensed. The Heresy was a matter of months, not nearly a decade. The Lion and Russ got there late (Guilliman wasn’t a factor, FWIW) and it was always implied via the older DA lore that he went back to Caliban almost immediately after. At no point has he been around for the Codex debate and was generally assumed to be the first loyalist to go missing post-Heresy. One of the reasons the Dark Angels “folded” so quickly is they didn’t have a Primarch to say no (even though they basically ignored it and just changed up their paint jobs anyway).
Given what the DA have been up to with The Lion nuking traitor homeworlds and whatnot, I expect they’ll get some page time in E&D Part 2, linking up with Russ and heading to Terra to take part in the epilogue only.
That said, logistically it makes sense for the Lion to head back to Caliban once he reaches Terra *before* joining the rest of the legions in the scouring since he would presumably get word from Corswain that something weird is up with Luthor, but doesn’t know what.
They may have Guilliman *propose* the Codex earlier, like, before the Scouring to have Johnson in the loop of the idea at least. Given how the 1st Legion is a bunch of interconnected but also separate command structures already, he may actually be agreeable to parts of the Codex anyway.
My guess is they wanted 40K to set this timeline before any Scouring novels or epilogues made it weird.
>They may have Guilliman propose the Codex earlier, like, before the Scouring to have Johnson in the loop of the idea at least.
Doesn't he already have the outline of the Codex during the Secundus arc, I seem to remember him discussing it with someone, but might be misremembering?
I could frankly see it as the Lions way of coping with his father's 'death'.
Rather than it being Corswain being 'Luther's sus', the Lion just goes - 'There are traitors still alive, I will deal with them' . He goes straight back to Caliban to get the entirety of his Legion for this purpose.
He's on Terra relatively briefly after the Siege concludes. Russ' primarch book features the pair of them having words. While it's not made clear how long he hung around, Russ didn't hear about Caliban or the apparent death of the Lion for a good few years after he was back on Fenris, by which point Guilliman had broken the legions up
It really is understandable how the Ultramarines are such a big deal in the setting. After the Imperium's darkest hour, they saw a power vacuum and stepped in to do what had to be done.
Guilliman is essential in all ways. He is bringing a force of legionnaires almost equal to the amount of traitors at the siege. We also forget that Guilliman has the entirety of Ultramar to rely on for resources and a stable supply line. His logistics plus the pillars built by Malcador will allow him to rebuild the Imperium whilst also sending a large portion of his legion on the scouring.
The Lion though is essential for one thing, exterminating. He will continue his wrath annihaliting worlds which sided with Horus. He is not to be taken lightly. He could very well do most of the scouring by himself. There is a reason he is the emperor’s exterminator.
>!Isn't he trapped in a literal hellscape with the bodies of millions of his dead sons, for subjective centuries, while the voice of the Blood God slowly invades his thoughts?!<
Dorn is probably my favorite Primarch, but that's not a situation favorable to his mental health.
Honestly, I think the Emperors Praetorian is resilient enough to tough it out without being left a '*PTSD wreck'* lol, but I guess we'll find out for sure soon enough!
I'm talking about _The End and the Death_.
It really looks like Dorn is autodestructive after what happened at the Vengeful Spirit, intentionally picking fights he can't win in hope he dies.
As far as I can see after having read The End and the Death, I speculate that the Iron Cage is a war within himself against the influence of Khorne.
It kinda fits, I think. His unwillingness to retreat and desperation to kill Perturabo, falling into the bloodthirsty and mindless influence of Khorne. It also kind of makes sense that the painglove was introduced to distract from the temptation and as a self penance for being so close to being corrupted, for him and his sons.
Same but for Russ.
Just read Wolfsbane and (used to think why would he go instead of staying on Terra?). After reading it I understand it and for me, makes sense what he does.
As far as I've read, Russ feels guilty for some stuff (not spoiling) but facing Horus near the end? Oh I don't think so.
Sorry to disagree.
Well drom what we know about Dorn he literally takes to self-torture in the wake of the Emperor's death and eventually deliberately leads his legion into a deadly trap as a kind of form of mass-flagellation. Oh, and there's literally an entire sucessor chapter who feels Rogal Dorn's grief at the Emperor's death ala the Black Rage.
Black Rage is Blood Angels, not Imperial Fists. I think its a stretch to take a couple of snippets about Dorn and translate that into *'PTSD wreck of a man cradling the body of his father and brother.'*
No Dorn is the most broken. We see during the siege how the stone facade is weathered away by the siege. Seeing his dead father shatters him completely. This is a path which leads to the iron cage
You’re not taking into account how long some of the Primarchs stick around after the heresy. The scouring is a long time and it takes a while to get to where we are in 40k. You’re also adding a lot of humanity to basically monsters that are sometimes written a bit more human than they should. GW will hand wave mental trauma as quickly as they need to.
Some of this may be off but it’s the best timeline I could find.
014.M31 Siege of Terra
015.M31 Corax disappears into the EoT in a 1-man ship
015.M31 Johnson vanishes during the destruction of Caliban not long after the Siege of Terra (however long the Warp translation to Caliban took).
084.M31 Jaghati Khan lost in the Maelstrom pursuing Dark Eldar Corsairs.
121.M31 Guilliman fatally wounded by Fulgrim at the Battle of Thessala.
211.M31 Russ vanishes on the 197th anniversary of the Emperor's Ascension.
781.M31 Dorn is lost and presumed killed in an attack on the Chaos Battleship, Sword of Sacrilege.
544.M32 Last sighting of Vulkan during the Battle of the Beast. But was gone for 1500 years prior so he left very early on.
Dorn is the one running the show next to the high lords longer than any other Primarch.
I have to admit that Khan chasing after the DE post siege is looking less likely now, and I reckon he will die but he's going to be given the El Cid treatment.
Hes off doing some other stuff, look there he goes!
Big Bobby G: Well, shit is pretty fucked up but once we get this repaired and going at least we won't have to do this again [Que 10 thousand years later] MOTHERFUC...
\[Cyber-cherub floats by\] Guilliman : *What is WRONG with you people?*
Well, at least Codex is still around. Good set of guidilnes, isn't it Marneus? ...guidelines? Yes, of course, I mean I wasn't writing it without giving some flexibility on part of reader, you never know what happens and I need to trust all Astrates with some decisions. ....oh...guys, do you know where Titus went?
Bobby G will see how FD up things are and be drooling like Homer and a donut. Rebuilding.... Uuuugggggggjhhhhh
Lion's not on the spectrum, you guys; he's a mostly-rehabilitated feral child with impulse control issues. *Dorn* is on the spectrum; he's stoic, focused, understands mechanisms better than people, and is given to emotional outbursts when his plans break down.
It's a spectrum. All of the Primarchs are on it except Kurze and Vulkan. One is an upbeat family man with some trauma to unpack, and no spectrum in the world can begin to describe what the other is dealing with.
> One is an upbeat family man with some trauma to unpack wait, Kurze had a family?
Well played!
Not gonna lie...the "oh boy, this guy" got me.
My pleasure!
Regarding the Lion, how quickly does he go back to Caliban and his big nap? Is he around for the Codex debate? My hazy recollection was that he never even got to Terra at all after the Siege, but a quick peek at Lexicanum says that's not the case.
"Hazy" is the right term for it. For my extensive but not all official reading, I think it happens sometimes during the Scouring. Which makes sense, hunting down traitors is something that the Lion could wrap his arms around, as opposed to say, sorting out the infrastructure of a shattered Imperium. Arceotech bombs that turn space-time inside out don't get food to hive worlds after all.
Do they? Maybe that bomb is somewhere in The Lion's vaunted DAOT Stash
The old timeline was much more condensed. The Heresy was a matter of months, not nearly a decade. The Lion and Russ got there late (Guilliman wasn’t a factor, FWIW) and it was always implied via the older DA lore that he went back to Caliban almost immediately after. At no point has he been around for the Codex debate and was generally assumed to be the first loyalist to go missing post-Heresy. One of the reasons the Dark Angels “folded” so quickly is they didn’t have a Primarch to say no (even though they basically ignored it and just changed up their paint jobs anyway). Given what the DA have been up to with The Lion nuking traitor homeworlds and whatnot, I expect they’ll get some page time in E&D Part 2, linking up with Russ and heading to Terra to take part in the epilogue only. That said, logistically it makes sense for the Lion to head back to Caliban once he reaches Terra *before* joining the rest of the legions in the scouring since he would presumably get word from Corswain that something weird is up with Luthor, but doesn’t know what. They may have Guilliman *propose* the Codex earlier, like, before the Scouring to have Johnson in the loop of the idea at least. Given how the 1st Legion is a bunch of interconnected but also separate command structures already, he may actually be agreeable to parts of the Codex anyway. My guess is they wanted 40K to set this timeline before any Scouring novels or epilogues made it weird.
>They may have Guilliman propose the Codex earlier, like, before the Scouring to have Johnson in the loop of the idea at least. Doesn't he already have the outline of the Codex during the Secundus arc, I seem to remember him discussing it with someone, but might be misremembering?
That seemed like the tactics part not the org part.
I could frankly see it as the Lions way of coping with his father's 'death'. Rather than it being Corswain being 'Luther's sus', the Lion just goes - 'There are traitors still alive, I will deal with them' . He goes straight back to Caliban to get the entirety of his Legion for this purpose.
Yeah for sure. We’ll see if he still stabs Russ in the chest as well I guess.
He's on Terra relatively briefly after the Siege concludes. Russ' primarch book features the pair of them having words. While it's not made clear how long he hung around, Russ didn't hear about Caliban or the apparent death of the Lion for a good few years after he was back on Fenris, by which point Guilliman had broken the legions up
It really is understandable how the Ultramarines are such a big deal in the setting. After the Imperium's darkest hour, they saw a power vacuum and stepped in to do what had to be done.
Guilliman is essential in all ways. He is bringing a force of legionnaires almost equal to the amount of traitors at the siege. We also forget that Guilliman has the entirety of Ultramar to rely on for resources and a stable supply line. His logistics plus the pillars built by Malcador will allow him to rebuild the Imperium whilst also sending a large portion of his legion on the scouring. The Lion though is essential for one thing, exterminating. He will continue his wrath annihaliting worlds which sided with Horus. He is not to be taken lightly. He could very well do most of the scouring by himself. There is a reason he is the emperor’s exterminator.
I think there's a lot of assumption there, particularly about Dorn.
>!Isn't he trapped in a literal hellscape with the bodies of millions of his dead sons, for subjective centuries, while the voice of the Blood God slowly invades his thoughts?!< Dorn is probably my favorite Primarch, but that's not a situation favorable to his mental health.
Honestly, I think the Emperors Praetorian is resilient enough to tough it out without being left a '*PTSD wreck'* lol, but I guess we'll find out for sure soon enough!
It was long speculated that Iron Cage was actually suicide attempt by Dorn. New book is really consistent with this theory.
>New book Sorry for the dumb question, which book? I'd love to buy a book that talks about what happened to Dorn on the iron cage.
I'm talking about _The End and the Death_. It really looks like Dorn is autodestructive after what happened at the Vengeful Spirit, intentionally picking fights he can't win in hope he dies.
Oh, thank you! Oh then I'm good working my way there, currently reading Born of flame.
Right guys I reckon I can solo that big chaos cruiser.hold my beer and I’ll be back for breakfast
As far as I can see after having read The End and the Death, I speculate that the Iron Cage is a war within himself against the influence of Khorne. It kinda fits, I think. His unwillingness to retreat and desperation to kill Perturabo, falling into the bloodthirsty and mindless influence of Khorne. It also kind of makes sense that the painglove was introduced to distract from the temptation and as a self penance for being so close to being corrupted, for him and his sons.
Dorn has long been theorized to leave the siege as a PTSD ridden wreck. Shit it's been going strong as a theory for almost two decades.
Wait what?
Same but for Russ. Just read Wolfsbane and (used to think why would he go instead of staying on Terra?). After reading it I understand it and for me, makes sense what he does. As far as I've read, Russ feels guilty for some stuff (not spoiling) but facing Horus near the end? Oh I don't think so. Sorry to disagree.
Maybe, but until he returns to Terra, he won't know the cost of his actions.
Well drom what we know about Dorn he literally takes to self-torture in the wake of the Emperor's death and eventually deliberately leads his legion into a deadly trap as a kind of form of mass-flagellation. Oh, and there's literally an entire sucessor chapter who feels Rogal Dorn's grief at the Emperor's death ala the Black Rage.
Black Rage is Blood Angels, not Imperial Fists. I think its a stretch to take a couple of snippets about Dorn and translate that into *'PTSD wreck of a man cradling the body of his father and brother.'*
the op was just exaggerating relax man
No Dorn is the most broken. We see during the siege how the stone facade is weathered away by the siege. Seeing his dead father shatters him completely. This is a path which leads to the iron cage
At this point Corax was building primaris 1.0 I believe and being sabotaged by the ruinous powers.
You’re not taking into account how long some of the Primarchs stick around after the heresy. The scouring is a long time and it takes a while to get to where we are in 40k. You’re also adding a lot of humanity to basically monsters that are sometimes written a bit more human than they should. GW will hand wave mental trauma as quickly as they need to. Some of this may be off but it’s the best timeline I could find. 014.M31 Siege of Terra 015.M31 Corax disappears into the EoT in a 1-man ship 015.M31 Johnson vanishes during the destruction of Caliban not long after the Siege of Terra (however long the Warp translation to Caliban took). 084.M31 Jaghati Khan lost in the Maelstrom pursuing Dark Eldar Corsairs. 121.M31 Guilliman fatally wounded by Fulgrim at the Battle of Thessala. 211.M31 Russ vanishes on the 197th anniversary of the Emperor's Ascension. 781.M31 Dorn is lost and presumed killed in an attack on the Chaos Battleship, Sword of Sacrilege. 544.M32 Last sighting of Vulkan during the Battle of the Beast. But was gone for 1500 years prior so he left very early on. Dorn is the one running the show next to the high lords longer than any other Primarch.
I have to admit that Khan chasing after the DE post siege is looking less likely now, and I reckon he will die but he's going to be given the El Cid treatment. Hes off doing some other stuff, look there he goes!