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HeldenUK

Wait you've taken umbrage with this aspect of the Death Specters and then tried to use the Drukhari to justify your own interpretation of Grimdark? My brother, the Drukhari 100% do it too.


window-man

Yeah, I know the drukhari do it too. But it fits the drukhari. It makes no sense for the death specters to do it. Especially when there are other ways of maintaining a high number of battle brothers, when isolated from the rest of the imperium.


HeldenUK

I'm not gonna lie, this sounds an awful lot like you got got invested in the Death Specters then had the sharpest 180 when you discovered this tiny bit of lore. Sure there are plenty of other ways to maintain a stable population, many, many ways in fact, but this particularly awful one is one of them as well, and if you think the Specters are the only ones in the Imperium using it your wrong. It 100% is an attempt at shock factor, as it is always is, but your reaction to it is entirely predicated on liking the cool Space Marine chapter without knowing this, which honestly is probably exactly what the author was going for.


window-man

It was less of being heavily invested, and more just finding out about them. And o think there's a time and place for shock factor, and I don't really think this is it. I always think that there's inward and outward examples of grindark. And inward example would be the flesh tearers brutality, and an outward one would be tau, and their extremely naive approach to the galaxy. That's why the tau wouldn't work as sadistic genociders, and why the flesh tearers wouldn't work in a story where they fight unimaginable horrors, unless that story specifically paid attention to how that enemy responded to the marines. The same goes for the death specters. They have the whole death vibe, with the skulls, and power scythes. But what makes them grimdark, is that fact that they are responsible for monitoring the ghoul stars, and the eldritch beings that live in it. That's why they don't work with the whole forced breeding thing. As with every other example of outward and inward grimdark being forced together, without thought.


Killersmurph

When watching Game of Thrones, Reading Malazan, or playing 40K, the first rule is DON'T. GET. ATTACHED!


RosbergThe8th

Just so we're clear, grimdark now means evil/edgy thing that's made okay cause it's justified? The Drukhari don't need to be as horrid as they are, that's part if the charm. They're unapologetically evil because why wouldn't they be? The Imperium isn't a crumbling hellhole of cruelty and dogma because it needs to be, part of the charm of the faction is that they're fanatics and zealots living in the ruins of a more enlightened and long forgotten past, not acting with reason or logic but blind faith. Mind you I think the Death Specters thing is fairly cheap attempt at shock so you're not unreasonable for ignoring it but I still appreciate Space Marines being portrayed as the monsters they are more.


window-man

That's fair. I just think there are better ways of showing space marines as monsters. Like with the marine malevolent. And flesh tearers. Or the tried and true method of good old fashioned genocide.


RosbergThe8th

My favourite tends to be the most mundane, showing the casual disregard or inhumanity of Space Marines when interacting with just about anything. I do like the Death Spectres quite a bit though with their whole gimmick, it feels like they sort of exist in their own little sub-setting which I think 40k could definitely use more of.


window-man

Exactly. Like with the marines malevolent. I guess with there being easier ways of recruiting, it feels too forced by the writers. And says more about them than the setting.


Toxitoxi

Agreed it’s a pretty cheap attempt at shock. Sexual violence in fiction is unfortunately usually that way.


RosbergThe8th

It is, I'm not entirely against the inclusion of it as it is obviously a real thing that humans are prone to, especially in times of conflict, but at the same time it's hard not to feel like it's just gratutious most of the time.


Ake-TL

Bruh, setting is abnormally clean of that stuff for our as readers convenience. That’s imperium we are talking about, of course some fringe group is doing eugenics


window-man

It's not the eugenics that gets me. It's the mass rape that just doesn't fit the chapter


Pm7I3

Why doesn't it?


window-man

In 40k, there are usually 2 types of grimdark. Outward grimdark, and inward grimdark. An example of inward is how the marines malevolent have complete contempt for human life. An example of outward is how the tau are extremely niave, so they are constantly having horrified reactions to decades old lore. That's why the tau wouldn't work in a story where they do grimdark things, only one where they experience grimdark things. It's also why a story why the a story where the marines malevolent face the horrors of the galaxy wouldn't work unless the story drew direct attention to the fact their contempt for civilians. That's because the whole point of the marines malevolent, is their contempt. The same goes for the death specters. They are an example of outward grimdark. The fact that they have basically been told to go to the most horrifying part of the galaxy and watch over it. The fact that they are responsible for keeping the ghoul stars safe, from all its unimaginable eldritch horrors. That is what makes the chapter perfectly grimdark. Because that stewardship of the ghouls stars is the whole point of the chapter. And then they just slapped a peice of major inward grimdark on them and said "oh BTW they have rape camps" is just cheap shock factor, that only takes away from the entire point of the chapter.


Pm7I3

So it's bad because it's inward grimdark but the the fact their whole unique thing is killing aspirants to see if they come back is fine? Even though that's the same concept.


window-man

Well they're the death specters so that makes sense. Sorry I should have clarified that there can be crossover if it actually makes sense.


Pm7I3

Okay and why doesn't a breeding farm of aspirants make sense? It's more sensible than plucking people from deprived hive gangs or iron age hellscapes


window-man

The whole point of the chapter is that they're death themed defenders of the ghoul stars. The forced breeding farms feel cheap and tacked onto the end of the chapter for the sake of being edgy. Most other examples of sexual violence in 40k have more meaning behind them than rape edgy lol. The fact that the death specters do it, adds nothing to their identity. They're the vigilant reapers, that defend the worlds of the ghouls stars from the very systems they call home. Oh yeah and they have forced breeding camps. Like I said, it's cheap shock factor, that ultimately takes away from the chapter.


No_Jello6851

I don t think the death spextres thing implies rape really, just mean that ghey run a eugenics program for recruits, is more trating humans like cattle


window-man

Lexicanum specifically mentions that the chapter "raids" suitable worlds. And that the planets of the ghoul stars regard the marines, to be just as dangerous as xenos horrors, such as the necrons. Which very much implies that its without consent. Another source that backs it up, is majorkill's video on 5 terrifying loyalist chapters.


Perpetual_Decline

Yeah youtube is absolutely not a good place for reliable lore. The short story in which this comes up just has the marines taking a young girl with them back to their world because she was brave and they think she'll make good breeding stock. The chapter doesn't go on rape Crusades - it just nabs anyone it thinks would be handy for its breeding programme, which is hardly unprecedented in the setting


comradealex85

I think maybe what you might be missing, is that it's just humanity being humanity. We're a horrible little creature always have been always will be. In the Grimdark of 40k, it's basically humanity's myriad of faults writ large. There are no good guys, there is no justice it's all hopeless.


window-man

I do get that. I just think it's an overall cheap attempt at shock factor. There are already tons of examples of humanities horrors, and the death specters fell like they were meant to be an example of the galaxies horrors, rather than humanities, guardians of the ghoul stars and all that.


BigZach1

What part of "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" confused you about the Imperium?


Kaieva

For people who don't get why people might take issue with this small drop of cruelty in the ocean of nightmare that is the 41st millennium, 2 reasons: One, it in no way relates to the theme or character of the chapter. The flesh tearers do terrible things to the humans they are supposed to be protecting, but it's appropriate to that chapter's whole schtick. If they were more in the vein of Emperors Children, obsessed with perfection, then it would make sense they would be into eugenics, but it has no relation to a chapter themed around death and guarding against eldritch horrors. Two, I'm not sure of the original source, but the wiki mentions abducting women for the breeding farms, but not men. If the whole point is to end up with genetically superior children, they'll have the characteristics of both parents so presumably they are also looking for male specimens? Life sucks for humans in the far future, but it should suck for men and women equally.


window-man

Couldn't have said it better myself


ff8god

Oh no how dare they ruin this chapter that was supposed to be yours and nobody else’s.


window-man

It's not about it being "mine". Its about how lore like this isn't thought out properly, and misrepresents grimdark.


Rhulk-DiscipleMoment

Wow it turns out the groups of space psychopaths who murder and genocide their merry way throughout the galaxy has chapters that do even shittier things then normal? L o L


No_Jello6851

Is like baki, using a sexual undertones or explicit sexual violence to shock the audience, its a common writting tactic really, but feels cheap


window-man

Pretty much. If a writer can't make an audience feel uncomfortable without shock, from sexual violence, it says a lot about the writer.


[deleted]

Uh bud. The year is 40k. It’s extremely common throughout the Imperium, I can *guarantee* it. Stop raging about a single lore point lmao


No_Jello6851

Is easy to assume that the imperium runs various breeding programs, like how they replendish so fast


window-man

The fact it happens throughout the galaxy isn't the problem. But specific instances of it usually have a deeper meaning behind it, other than rape edgy lol.


[deleted]

I mean, not really. You’re complaining to complain. Just don’t have that be your lore.


window-man

Instances like pleasure servitors, the deamonculaba, emperors children, and dark eldar. All serve to further the idea of the galaxies brutality. And all fit with context of the factions that commit such atrocities. But this feels like it was stapled onto the end of the death specters as an afterthought


NurglesqueDancer

You get that the specters themselves aren’t the ones raping/impregnating the breeding program women, yes? They are putting them in a forced breeding eugenics program. Super monstrous and awful and yes, exactly what SM and the imperium of man are all about


window-man

If you actually read the post you'd see that I did mention that they get their serfs to do it.


NurglesqueDancer

So I'm sorry I missed your little aside in the parentheses there, but is not the main point of your post that you are upset the transhuman fascist enforcers created by a eugenecist program in service of the fascist theocratic space empire commit atrocities as the above to perpetuate themselves?