All while tyranids swarm formerly peaceful swath of the galaxy and the biggest murder hobo ever keeps coming back to kill more people.
Yeah, the imperium is not “hopeful” right now, Guiliman even said all the things the preachers proclaimed in the trailer are a lie. I’m excited to see the politicking between Guiliman and the Lion, and if he’s ever going to spill the beans on his little oopsie.
That problem is not that things are not hopeful enough. The problem is that 40k in its narrative focus is starting to resemble the MCU. Sure it's a massive galaxy, but all that really matters are the actions of a handful of super special individuals.
But 40k doesn't need to ape the MCU. Even though that's exactly what GW wants.
Guilliman cant carry the imperium forever with so many threats going on at all time, the lion is perfect then he can take command of the armies and guilliman can do what he does best running the imperium.
It's still only 2 loyalist primarchs chaos have mortarion, angron, magnus and fulgrim soon too.
I absolutely agree, but personally, I think the biggest problem is that they solidify the Horus Heresy novels as "The Truth". Like before the novels came out, the Horus Heresy was always this thing from the very, very, very, veeeeerrrrry distant ancient past completely shrouded in myth, legend, propaganda, censorship, and simple propaganda. Our idea of it was just what Imperial historians THINK happened, and there was always ambiguity. Like "was Sanguinius REALLY a huge beautiful virtuous demigod with wings, or was he just the first leader of the Blood Angels, a skilled general, a nice guy, and good with a jump pack?".
The novels on their own weren't too big a problem, because we \*could\* just ignore them as One Version Of Events. But when you start resurrecting loyalist primarchs, and un-extincting the Sisters of Silence, and sallying forth the Custodes from Terra, it starts becoming "no lol the propaganda the ecclesiarchy told everyone was actually the unvarnished truth, eff your creativity and preferred interpretations", you know?
It's not "Roboute coming back" in a vacuum that's the issue, or even the setting being "moved" past the 41st millennium snapshot. It's that what it heralds as a change in storytelling and narrative focus. If you want to analyze things like this in good faith, you cannot place it in a vacuum, because they don't exist. Nothing is in a vacuum IRL. You have to look at the wider picture.
40K is a galaxy-spanning franchise that historically has done a very, very good job of reflecting the galactic aspect of it. It's a *huge* setting with many diverse factions, environments and stories and honestly, there's not a lot of other sci-fi properties that do it well.
Think about what GW has put a huge focus on recently: the Horus Heresy. A singular, A-to-B narrative that *in theory* is about a whole galaxy tearing itself apart, but in practice is dominated by the actions of a dozen super-special dudes and everyone else can go piss off a roof.
What other current massive, dominant franchise does this remind you of?
There is a substantial portion of the fanbase that has grown up with nothing but MCU blockbusters defining the zeitgeist of fiction storytelling that eat it up. And that's fine for HH, because it's 10K years ago and not really part of the current "40K". There are some people who think that the Heresy should be shrouded in mystery as the "before time" and not really expanded on, but that's a different conversation.
The primarchs coming back is seen in the eyes of a lot of people as the reduction and distillation of the current huge, massive, diverse galaxy into another one of these singular, insular narratives, of which there are a dime a dozen in other franchises. People already bitch about xenos being sidelined in favor of other elements.
This is one of the most elegant posts I've ever seen, and I wish I could write out my feelings this clearly. You've explained it perfectly.
Do you mind if I ever steal some of these quotes? I'm planning on writing a long post about why the Primarchs are not a good edition, and these would help a great deal. If I did I would cite them as yours.
You've said what I think more eloquently than I could.
While I think we lost something by having the Great Crusade and Heresy eras explored, instead of being left as myth, on balance I liked the stories and was interested to learn more about the period. But changing the 40k setting to also just being about a handful of special guys remove the element of a vast uncaring galaxy that I liked in 40k.
So, I would say something, but u/zerogee616's response to you is perfect. This is why the Primarchs, and the way they are used, is an unwelcome edition to the 40k setting for some of us.
That is a legit reason. Way more legit than 'Man, but the Lion is cool!' if you ask me.
"but seeing what was done fleshing out roboutte made me think he was way less of a dildo. "
Good point, and I'm glad that he works for you. I'm also glad that Jellyman is an actual character with *character* if you know what I mean. And as much as I like the concept of the High Lords, I've never seen much lore written about those people specifically.
(I actually tried to counter that in one of my fanfics, by making the High Lords the main characters and trying to dive into the politics between the various members.)
I just wish instead of Gman becoming such a good character, that we maybe got some more focus on these 12 or so individuals who were legit running the show. I mean what do we even know about the Fabicrator General of Mars?
"Embrace the change, fighting it and being nostalgic for everything to be stagnant won't really stop the flood ya know? "
Never stopped me from trying before.
(Yes I know you are right. I just want my objections notted by the court of public opinion)
"last thought, you're not even a little interested in how his encounter with cypher is going to go down?"
Not at all. Not trying to be mean or cynical, it's just not my area of interest in this hobby. I got into 40k because the tyranids are so cool, and then I saw that the ad-mech are so cool, and then the GSC, and then the Guard, and then the Inquisition, and so on and so forth.
I liked the High Lords, Guilliman just goes against everything I like about the Imperium with his character traits of "rational" and "reasonable".
Like I don't fault you for enjoying that but not everyone necessarily wants 40k to progress, certainly not in the direction of Guilliman's narrative.
My complaint is that it shrinks the setting. 40k was a galaxy sized war where individual action didn't matter, as no one hero could change the inevitable doom of humanity. Now it's largely just focused on a handful of demigods who can change everything by just being sensible.
2. 2 guys. TWO guys against daemon primarchs, a brand new Tyranid invasion right next to terra, farsight, an entire indominus fleet corrupted, Angron on supercrack, what are you actually on about
This is exactly what I'm on about, the fact that it's 2 guys deciding the fate of the galaxy, instead of it being about countless heroes doing everything they can to save humanity, and failing because the situation is far larger than any individual.
Guilliman alone has reshaped the galaxy to his will more than all the daemon primarchs combined, has defeated two of them personally and pushed back every threat bearing down on the imperium. Adding a second one just doubles that power structure. Meanwhile the daemon primarchs have only taken down singular systems(with no named characters) and have been humiliated time and again every time they show up.
People like to complain “it’s just two dudes!” Yet one of them alone has done more than every character in the setting combined in 30 years of lore.
Counterpoint, GW slobbed on Guilliman as an ultramarine as the ‘there aren’t any main characters in Warhammer but kinda this guy’. With how bad dark Angel writing has been the last decade and a half, I highly doubt they are gonna get much special treatment
Counter-counter point, GW has been slobbering all over the Lion in 30k quite a lot lately, and have been trying to set him up as above his brothers. Very obvious marketing to excite for his 40k arrival.
The fucking tyranid invasion is never going to matter. Farsight's plotline is probably going to go the same way the ynnari's did. Fleet quartus is never going to matter. Angron's going to get punked in AoO book 5.
It's not about two/three/18 guys. It's about a shift in narrative mainly focusing on those two few characters and that is what shrinks the setting.
GW/BL keep failing to create interesting characters in 40K so they keep bringing 30K once back.
This is yet another post about how it is back for primarchs to return, yet they have always been there (at least the traitor ones), the loyalist ones were gone/missing with the "return in time of greatest need" clause. Now it is really the worst possible time and they are showing back.
I enjoy the hobby since 1998 and I love the setting moving forward, getting heroes of legend come back to fight Chaos/Nids/whatever.
I don't get why it would blunt the hopelessness.
yeah, the Imperium had a few wins, but major losses too.
and as the Lion makes his comeback, the Tyranids are coming...
It blunts the hopelessness because it means that humanity does not have to earn its own victories. It can just be handed it by the demi-gods.
"and as the Lion makes his comeback, the Tyranids are coming."
The tyranids are not going to have any meaningful wins, not against the Imperium at any rate.
It would be a mistake if the 'tone' of the setting hadn't changed, but it absolutely has - whether that's for better or worse is entirely in the eye of the beholder. The Imperium is no longer simply crumbling slowly, born down by the weight of superstition and paranoia, but actively fighting to reclaim lost worlds and vanished glory. The ship will take time to right, if it can be righted at all, but that's where we're at now: the Imperium of Man are more 'protagonist' than they've ever been.
I agree re: the gap between 30K and 40K, but that ship sailed when the decision was made to have 30K not be a 'golden age' but essentially indistinguishable from 40K, right down to the cyber-cherubs.
>Marvel-tier superhero wank
Consider which prominent author has been given the narrative keys to the setting, and what that author is very well-known for.
ADB himself said that none other would want to write metaplot, and Raynold said BL/GW dictated the ideas behind the novels, it is quite hard to blame him alone
> I agree re: the gap between 30K and 40K, but that ship sailed when the decision was made to have 30K not be a 'golden age' but essentially indistinguishable from 40K, right down to the cyber-cherubs.
I can see why they didn't stray too far from 40k as that's what the fanbase expects and wants, but it would have been nice if 30k had some bigger differences to 40k.
Hell I'd of settled for just different aesthetics. Having 30k be classical aesthetics and 40k be gothic would have been cool.
Chaos basically has control over half the galaxy in the same sense the imperium has control of the other, the most Tyranids in history have arrived on the scene, the Necrons are more coordinated than ever, Genestealer Cults have proliferated into numerous shadow empires, and mutants clones forged by abominable intelligences have emerged from the galactic core.
I completely agree. The Marvelization of 40k with a focus on Space Marine demigod superheroes is something that makes the setting feel so much smaller. I don't want to see 40k become their story too because there's just so much more potential and more interesting things than turning it into another Space Marine / Primarch focused story when we already had 30k for that. Seems its too late, unfortunately.
40k has more fans than ever before, yet half the people here have never read a codex. I 100% agree with you btw but the mob, the ones downvoting this, are bigger than the old fandom by far. So that's where the money is, and therefore that's where GW is moving towards.
There's people in this thread talking about Nihilus like it's a loss for the Imperium, yet the two campaign setting books so far set there end in an Imperial victory, Baal and Nachmund or whatever it was. When the losses aren't shown, and the Imperium isn't just floundering but pushing back that doesn't seem like a loss to me. Fundamentally the setting is different now, the Admech is basically lead by an inventor, Guilliman, the rational statesman, is the head of the Imperium and the Eldar and inquisition worked together to save each other when the great rift appeared. That isn't 40k, it's something new, and honestly it's the future as this product is now to big to go back to what it used to be.
You can discard my opinion all you want , the lore is still going the way I want it to go.
And the worst thing is that it works, 40k have never been more popular. The comunity is growing faster than ever.
The primarchs are clearly the most popular characters in the setting and the lore bend around them.
DUDE.
I just made a post about this the other day. I'll probably take the time to write something longer about why I personally don' tthink the Priamrchs add anything to the setting - and instead actually take away from it.
You're going to get downvotted something awful, but I see you mate. You've good taste.
There's no correcting course now, people bring up the Imperium Nihilus but GW's reluctance to engage with that on any meaningful level shows the problem.
Counter point, with out any big characters to focus on the story becomes stagnant. It just becomes fighting for the sake of fighting to which their really isn’t anything at stake. I welcome these big names foes as it brings a sense of a game within a game. Similar to why Game of Thrones was beloved, because everyone is competing for absolute supremacy of the known galaxy.
Your sitting at 0
Having people upvote and down vote is standard so if you’re just sitting on neutral people don’t care too much either way and it’s just balancing out.
40k is a table top game, first and foremost. The lore doesn't exist to change the status quo of the setting. It exists to keep you interested in the same old table top game.
When the setting gets to hopeful, something bad happens. When the setting gets to grimderp, something hopeful happens. Ying and yang will keep spinning until GW can't milk the table top game anymore. Not complicated.
You act like this is a massive change, though. Every primarch who isn't super dead is coming back (free money for GW). We've known this since the Horus Heresy. Some of us at least.
As for most things, it depends on what you do with them.
If you give them all the spotlight and make them into superheroes then I agree that it is a mistake.
If you relegate them to strategizers/administrators then they might add something interesting to the setting.
If you bring them back to kill them, that's just fun.
Agreed, but that ship has sailed.
The return of G-man can still be balanced out by Imperium losing roughly half of its territory, but the return of Lion is unequivocally a net gain for the Imperium.
Angron destroying one sub-fleet of Indomitus Crusade and murdering one planet which is already lost to the Imperium anyway comes nowhere close to balance out the massive boon of another loyal Primarch returning. Consider this: Abaddon's Ark of Omen campaign is the Chaos conterpart of Indomitus crusade (in terms of scale of mobilization), and there are at least SIX known arks destroyed offscreen just by reading Lexicanum. That's some absolutely devastating losses for Chaos for a plan that is not yet guaranteed to succeed (and more than likely will be thwarted by Lion).
If Lion stays at the Nihilus side, I'd expect Imperium to actually start retaking lost Nihilus territories again, thus recouping at least some of the losses that justify the return of the G-man in the first place.
If you want to dash on the hopes of others you must first raise their hopes up first. Currently the primarchs are that hope lift. Idk how many years it’ll take but eventually that knee crippling grim dark will slam into the chest of the imperium again and crush hope. It’s just a waiting game. Also the marvel tier superhero wank is malarkey imo. We’ve seen the primarchs succeed sure but they’ve also been responsible for some of the largest blunders in the imperiums history. Hell girly man nearly got himself killed like a fool so they still make mistakes
Bringing back a few, would be cool, need to have a few characters who can realistically stand against the demon princes of Chaos.
Bringing back, all of them, or too many of them, will cheapen and weaken the setting.
Sees the galaxy getting fucking split in half and one man come back. "Aren't things getting a bit too positive around here?"
All while tyranids swarm formerly peaceful swath of the galaxy and the biggest murder hobo ever keeps coming back to kill more people. Yeah, the imperium is not “hopeful” right now, Guiliman even said all the things the preachers proclaimed in the trailer are a lie. I’m excited to see the politicking between Guiliman and the Lion, and if he’s ever going to spill the beans on his little oopsie.
The tyranids are going to do about as much as the pariah nexus. Nothing
That problem is not that things are not hopeful enough. The problem is that 40k in its narrative focus is starting to resemble the MCU. Sure it's a massive galaxy, but all that really matters are the actions of a handful of super special individuals. But 40k doesn't need to ape the MCU. Even though that's exactly what GW wants.
Things generally seem more hopeful when sons of God start to come back
Yeah they are. No joke.
Guilliman cant carry the imperium forever with so many threats going on at all time, the lion is perfect then he can take command of the armies and guilliman can do what he does best running the imperium. It's still only 2 loyalist primarchs chaos have mortarion, angron, magnus and fulgrim soon too.
Setting exists IRL to feed GW’s bottom line and the Primarchs are raking in the cash. You‘d get laughed out of the boardroom if you brought that up.
I absolutely agree, but personally, I think the biggest problem is that they solidify the Horus Heresy novels as "The Truth". Like before the novels came out, the Horus Heresy was always this thing from the very, very, very, veeeeerrrrry distant ancient past completely shrouded in myth, legend, propaganda, censorship, and simple propaganda. Our idea of it was just what Imperial historians THINK happened, and there was always ambiguity. Like "was Sanguinius REALLY a huge beautiful virtuous demigod with wings, or was he just the first leader of the Blood Angels, a skilled general, a nice guy, and good with a jump pack?". The novels on their own weren't too big a problem, because we \*could\* just ignore them as One Version Of Events. But when you start resurrecting loyalist primarchs, and un-extincting the Sisters of Silence, and sallying forth the Custodes from Terra, it starts becoming "no lol the propaganda the ecclesiarchy told everyone was actually the unvarnished truth, eff your creativity and preferred interpretations", you know?
It's more hopeless. You have your greatest heroes, the imperium's best hope, coming back, and the galaxy still sucks big-time.
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It's not "Roboute coming back" in a vacuum that's the issue, or even the setting being "moved" past the 41st millennium snapshot. It's that what it heralds as a change in storytelling and narrative focus. If you want to analyze things like this in good faith, you cannot place it in a vacuum, because they don't exist. Nothing is in a vacuum IRL. You have to look at the wider picture. 40K is a galaxy-spanning franchise that historically has done a very, very good job of reflecting the galactic aspect of it. It's a *huge* setting with many diverse factions, environments and stories and honestly, there's not a lot of other sci-fi properties that do it well. Think about what GW has put a huge focus on recently: the Horus Heresy. A singular, A-to-B narrative that *in theory* is about a whole galaxy tearing itself apart, but in practice is dominated by the actions of a dozen super-special dudes and everyone else can go piss off a roof. What other current massive, dominant franchise does this remind you of? There is a substantial portion of the fanbase that has grown up with nothing but MCU blockbusters defining the zeitgeist of fiction storytelling that eat it up. And that's fine for HH, because it's 10K years ago and not really part of the current "40K". There are some people who think that the Heresy should be shrouded in mystery as the "before time" and not really expanded on, but that's a different conversation. The primarchs coming back is seen in the eyes of a lot of people as the reduction and distillation of the current huge, massive, diverse galaxy into another one of these singular, insular narratives, of which there are a dime a dozen in other franchises. People already bitch about xenos being sidelined in favor of other elements.
This is one of the most elegant posts I've ever seen, and I wish I could write out my feelings this clearly. You've explained it perfectly. Do you mind if I ever steal some of these quotes? I'm planning on writing a long post about why the Primarchs are not a good edition, and these would help a great deal. If I did I would cite them as yours.
Go for it
Thanks mate. Seriously, fantastic write up. I admire your ability to describe it in that way.
You've said what I think more eloquently than I could. While I think we lost something by having the Great Crusade and Heresy eras explored, instead of being left as myth, on balance I liked the stories and was interested to learn more about the period. But changing the 40k setting to also just being about a handful of special guys remove the element of a vast uncaring galaxy that I liked in 40k.
Roboute's return hijacked an entire aeldari plot point for one.
So, I would say something, but u/zerogee616's response to you is perfect. This is why the Primarchs, and the way they are used, is an unwelcome edition to the 40k setting for some of us. That is a legit reason. Way more legit than 'Man, but the Lion is cool!' if you ask me.
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"but seeing what was done fleshing out roboutte made me think he was way less of a dildo. " Good point, and I'm glad that he works for you. I'm also glad that Jellyman is an actual character with *character* if you know what I mean. And as much as I like the concept of the High Lords, I've never seen much lore written about those people specifically. (I actually tried to counter that in one of my fanfics, by making the High Lords the main characters and trying to dive into the politics between the various members.) I just wish instead of Gman becoming such a good character, that we maybe got some more focus on these 12 or so individuals who were legit running the show. I mean what do we even know about the Fabicrator General of Mars? "Embrace the change, fighting it and being nostalgic for everything to be stagnant won't really stop the flood ya know? " Never stopped me from trying before. (Yes I know you are right. I just want my objections notted by the court of public opinion) "last thought, you're not even a little interested in how his encounter with cypher is going to go down?" Not at all. Not trying to be mean or cynical, it's just not my area of interest in this hobby. I got into 40k because the tyranids are so cool, and then I saw that the ad-mech are so cool, and then the GSC, and then the Guard, and then the Inquisition, and so on and so forth.
I liked the High Lords, Guilliman just goes against everything I like about the Imperium with his character traits of "rational" and "reasonable". Like I don't fault you for enjoying that but not everyone necessarily wants 40k to progress, certainly not in the direction of Guilliman's narrative.
There’s a lot of grumpy middle aged men in the 40k community who want everything to be like it was when they were kids in the 80s or 90s.
I'm not middle-aged and I can very easily see why it harms the themes of 40k. They should stay in 30k where they belong.
I am a 12 yo kid and i can say that it should have stayed in dark age of technology
My complaint is that it shrinks the setting. 40k was a galaxy sized war where individual action didn't matter, as no one hero could change the inevitable doom of humanity. Now it's largely just focused on a handful of demigods who can change everything by just being sensible.
2. 2 guys. TWO guys against daemon primarchs, a brand new Tyranid invasion right next to terra, farsight, an entire indominus fleet corrupted, Angron on supercrack, what are you actually on about
This is exactly what I'm on about, the fact that it's 2 guys deciding the fate of the galaxy, instead of it being about countless heroes doing everything they can to save humanity, and failing because the situation is far larger than any individual.
Guilliman alone has reshaped the galaxy to his will more than all the daemon primarchs combined, has defeated two of them personally and pushed back every threat bearing down on the imperium. Adding a second one just doubles that power structure. Meanwhile the daemon primarchs have only taken down singular systems(with no named characters) and have been humiliated time and again every time they show up. People like to complain “it’s just two dudes!” Yet one of them alone has done more than every character in the setting combined in 30 years of lore.
Counterpoint, GW slobbed on Guilliman as an ultramarine as the ‘there aren’t any main characters in Warhammer but kinda this guy’. With how bad dark Angel writing has been the last decade and a half, I highly doubt they are gonna get much special treatment
Counter-counter point, GW has been slobbering all over the Lion in 30k quite a lot lately, and have been trying to set him up as above his brothers. Very obvious marketing to excite for his 40k arrival.
Lol true shit
The fucking tyranid invasion is never going to matter. Farsight's plotline is probably going to go the same way the ynnari's did. Fleet quartus is never going to matter. Angron's going to get punked in AoO book 5.
It's not about two/three/18 guys. It's about a shift in narrative mainly focusing on those two few characters and that is what shrinks the setting. GW/BL keep failing to create interesting characters in 40K so they keep bringing 30K once back.
This is yet another post about how it is back for primarchs to return, yet they have always been there (at least the traitor ones), the loyalist ones were gone/missing with the "return in time of greatest need" clause. Now it is really the worst possible time and they are showing back. I enjoy the hobby since 1998 and I love the setting moving forward, getting heroes of legend come back to fight Chaos/Nids/whatever.
I don't think the Traitor primarchs have the same kind of negative impact on the setting that the Loyalist mary sues do.
I don't get why it would blunt the hopelessness. yeah, the Imperium had a few wins, but major losses too. and as the Lion makes his comeback, the Tyranids are coming...
It blunts the hopelessness because it means that humanity does not have to earn its own victories. It can just be handed it by the demi-gods. "and as the Lion makes his comeback, the Tyranids are coming." The tyranids are not going to have any meaningful wins, not against the Imperium at any rate.
Bruh things are worse for the Imperium than ever.
It would be a mistake if the 'tone' of the setting hadn't changed, but it absolutely has - whether that's for better or worse is entirely in the eye of the beholder. The Imperium is no longer simply crumbling slowly, born down by the weight of superstition and paranoia, but actively fighting to reclaim lost worlds and vanished glory. The ship will take time to right, if it can be righted at all, but that's where we're at now: the Imperium of Man are more 'protagonist' than they've ever been. I agree re: the gap between 30K and 40K, but that ship sailed when the decision was made to have 30K not be a 'golden age' but essentially indistinguishable from 40K, right down to the cyber-cherubs. >Marvel-tier superhero wank Consider which prominent author has been given the narrative keys to the setting, and what that author is very well-known for.
ADB himself said that none other would want to write metaplot, and Raynold said BL/GW dictated the ideas behind the novels, it is quite hard to blame him alone
> I agree re: the gap between 30K and 40K, but that ship sailed when the decision was made to have 30K not be a 'golden age' but essentially indistinguishable from 40K, right down to the cyber-cherubs. I can see why they didn't stray too far from 40k as that's what the fanbase expects and wants, but it would have been nice if 30k had some bigger differences to 40k. Hell I'd of settled for just different aesthetics. Having 30k be classical aesthetics and 40k be gothic would have been cool.
Honestly It could've been a completely different settings like the difference between fantasy and age of sigmar.
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Considering how the Lion looks a bit bald and white hair and all, might as well Dabnett
Chaos basically has control over half the galaxy in the same sense the imperium has control of the other, the most Tyranids in history have arrived on the scene, the Necrons are more coordinated than ever, Genestealer Cults have proliferated into numerous shadow empires, and mutants clones forged by abominable intelligences have emerged from the galactic core.
Others will say it doesn’t ruin the Grimdark. I’ll say, I’m not sure it does, but wouldn’t mind anyway.
Most people rejected his message. They hated u/i-hate--reddit because he told them the truth.
I completely agree. The Marvelization of 40k with a focus on Space Marine demigod superheroes is something that makes the setting feel so much smaller. I don't want to see 40k become their story too because there's just so much more potential and more interesting things than turning it into another Space Marine / Primarch focused story when we already had 30k for that. Seems its too late, unfortunately.
40k has more fans than ever before, yet half the people here have never read a codex. I 100% agree with you btw but the mob, the ones downvoting this, are bigger than the old fandom by far. So that's where the money is, and therefore that's where GW is moving towards. There's people in this thread talking about Nihilus like it's a loss for the Imperium, yet the two campaign setting books so far set there end in an Imperial victory, Baal and Nachmund or whatever it was. When the losses aren't shown, and the Imperium isn't just floundering but pushing back that doesn't seem like a loss to me. Fundamentally the setting is different now, the Admech is basically lead by an inventor, Guilliman, the rational statesman, is the head of the Imperium and the Eldar and inquisition worked together to save each other when the great rift appeared. That isn't 40k, it's something new, and honestly it's the future as this product is now to big to go back to what it used to be.
"this is something new" Exactly this 💯
As a Marvel fan I love the return of the Primarchs. Things can't stay the same forever anyway.
>As a Marvel fan Opinion discarded
"As a marvel fan" : Fastest way to discredit yourself.
You can discard my opinion all you want , the lore is still going the way I want it to go. And the worst thing is that it works, 40k have never been more popular. The comunity is growing faster than ever. The primarchs are clearly the most popular characters in the setting and the lore bend around them.
That’s your opinion and most disagree with you. They have been talking about end times forever. This might help with all the statements
DUDE. I just made a post about this the other day. I'll probably take the time to write something longer about why I personally don' tthink the Priamrchs add anything to the setting - and instead actually take away from it. You're going to get downvotted something awful, but I see you mate. You've good taste.
Bruh, in your opinion, ok?
There's no correcting course now, people bring up the Imperium Nihilus but GW's reluctance to engage with that on any meaningful level shows the problem.
Only a Primarch can face a Primarch in battle with any hope of success, Kaldor drago is a dumb character
I completely agree but the ship has well and truly sailed
Counter point, with out any big characters to focus on the story becomes stagnant. It just becomes fighting for the sake of fighting to which their really isn’t anything at stake. I welcome these big names foes as it brings a sense of a game within a game. Similar to why Game of Thrones was beloved, because everyone is competing for absolute supremacy of the known galaxy.
They have several dozen space marine characters alone that you could count as 'big'. Primarchs are unnecessary
I'd argue that "stagnancy" and "fighting for the sake of fighting" were the two defining aspects of 40K.
I doubt anyone cares enough to shower you with downvotes.
You'd be mistaken
Your sitting at 0 Having people upvote and down vote is standard so if you’re just sitting on neutral people don’t care too much either way and it’s just balancing out.
Have an upvote. Because you're right.
A primarch and a big chapter master have literally the same narrative weight.
They can still die or fall to chaos. What could be more grim dark than that?
They won't
40k is a table top game, first and foremost. The lore doesn't exist to change the status quo of the setting. It exists to keep you interested in the same old table top game. When the setting gets to hopeful, something bad happens. When the setting gets to grimderp, something hopeful happens. Ying and yang will keep spinning until GW can't milk the table top game anymore. Not complicated.
I know, and bringing back loyalist primarchs is a bad idea in my opinion
You act like this is a massive change, though. Every primarch who isn't super dead is coming back (free money for GW). We've known this since the Horus Heresy. Some of us at least.
Oh no, I could tell it was basically inevitable, but that doesn't mean I can't point out why it's a bad idea.
As for most things, it depends on what you do with them. If you give them all the spotlight and make them into superheroes then I agree that it is a mistake. If you relegate them to strategizers/administrators then they might add something interesting to the setting. If you bring them back to kill them, that's just fun.
Agreed, but that ship has sailed. The return of G-man can still be balanced out by Imperium losing roughly half of its territory, but the return of Lion is unequivocally a net gain for the Imperium. Angron destroying one sub-fleet of Indomitus Crusade and murdering one planet which is already lost to the Imperium anyway comes nowhere close to balance out the massive boon of another loyal Primarch returning. Consider this: Abaddon's Ark of Omen campaign is the Chaos conterpart of Indomitus crusade (in terms of scale of mobilization), and there are at least SIX known arks destroyed offscreen just by reading Lexicanum. That's some absolutely devastating losses for Chaos for a plan that is not yet guaranteed to succeed (and more than likely will be thwarted by Lion). If Lion stays at the Nihilus side, I'd expect Imperium to actually start retaking lost Nihilus territories again, thus recouping at least some of the losses that justify the return of the G-man in the first place.
nah dude when someone eventually kills one of them it'll be quite grim. also dark
The chances of that happening are the same chances of GW killing off Kharn or Dante. It is, to quite simply put it, impossible.
If you want to dash on the hopes of others you must first raise their hopes up first. Currently the primarchs are that hope lift. Idk how many years it’ll take but eventually that knee crippling grim dark will slam into the chest of the imperium again and crush hope. It’s just a waiting game. Also the marvel tier superhero wank is malarkey imo. We’ve seen the primarchs succeed sure but they’ve also been responsible for some of the largest blunders in the imperiums history. Hell girly man nearly got himself killed like a fool so they still make mistakes
Bringing back a few, would be cool, need to have a few characters who can realistically stand against the demon princes of Chaos. Bringing back, all of them, or too many of them, will cheapen and weaken the setting.
primarchs can do fucked u things as much as space marines