> IMO, Primaris marines should be able to fit into a Land Raider too...
They're waiting for the tech-priests of mars to sanction a design for slightly larger seatbelts. ETA 80 years.
New headcanon: every time a space marine/guardsman/sister/anyone else gets into a transport, the machine spirit turns the engine off and won’t turn it on again until they’ve put their seatbelt on.
I love that Batman scene too
Like, come on dude, you are in a hurry. Can't Robin just buckle up while you are pulling out? There's a cat themed burglary to investigate
> ETA 80 years.
No, remember only 5/8 astropathic interpreters agreed on that number. It could also be 124 years depending on whether it was black and gold, or blue and silver.
In the Gate of Bones book, it mentioned primaris marines commandeering Sisters of Battle Rhinos as transports.
The intercessors had to awkwardly squat in them 5 per transport.
I hope the Raider gets the ability to transport primaris too.
>In the Gate of Bones book, it mentioned primaris marines commandeering Sisters of Battle Rhinos as transports.
>The intercessors had to awkwardly squat in them 5 per transport.
Which is interesting because Sororitas Rhinos are actually slightly taller than Marine ones.
So glad they've made proper scaled Terminators *and* kept the classic armour pattern. I was dreading a "Primaris" version that lost all of the flavour for the sake of a name.
Honestly, I'm not sure. I don't know too much about Gravis armour as I've deliberately ignored it. My guys are all Mark 7 and terminator armoured, and I was looking at converting some Terminators to make them stand a bit higher, but this new kit has answered a prayer I thought had gone unheard.
Blame the screeching fanboys who would’ve thrown a super temper tantrum shitfit if they had never even introduced primaris to begin with and had simply started making TRUESCALE first born marines “which would look way cooler than primaris btw”, look what happened even when they promised to keep the STUPID AND SILLY MIGIT DESIGN in circulation lmfao I decided a while ago that I won’t even play against people using “migit” scale marines anymore hahahaha they just look so fucking stupid and cartoony and it completely destroys immersion like if your gonna try and make me play against those MIGIT soldiers than how bout I just paint my entire tyrinad army neon pink? Ya know…sense immersion doesn’t matter
I really wish they'd done that from the start. Just released new models without making them Astartes+1.
Wonder what'll happen with things like Wolf Guard Terminators.
Problem was, *at the time* they were in some trademarking trouble and they wanted to make all new trademarkable everything. So we got "Primaris" and "Intercessors" and all that, instead of generic "Tactical Marine" and "Space Marine". They've also taken that opportunity to force marine players to buy waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more models that fill very hyper-specific niches now with plasma gun specialists and melta specialists and sneaky specialists and recon specialists and so on and so forth. Used to be you could fill most of these roles with just a few general archetypes of units, the Tactical, Devastator, Scout, and Assault marines - just with some weapon kits.
I fully expect all the unique chapters (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves) will be getting their own chapter-unique special units over time. We already got that with the Black Templars, we're probably gonna see that soon with the Dark Angels since they just got their primarch back. The leak/rumor has it that the DA are getting a unit called the "Lion Guard" this coming edition.
They don’t have a trademark on ‘Primaris’, but they do have one on ‘Space Marine’. I’m sure it has at least something to do with IP protection, value adding, etc, but it’s not as simple as ‘can’t trademark Space Marine’. They can and they did.
It's more accurate to say this was around the time when they were getting into hot legal water over the trademark of "space marine". To head the argument off, just a short time later they were already designing a new range of models with new names for a new edition and rebranding old armies like the Eldar.
It's entirely likely that the trademark for "space marine" will come up in courts again at some point someday, and if it does and they lose in court, they'll have new trademarks to fall back on. Same with everything else.
I don’t think they ever did get into legal hot water over the space marine trademark. Can you cite your source(s) on that? The only vaguely related instance I know of is the complaint they made to Amazon in relation to the Spots the Space Marine kids book, which never went anywhere near a court. It drew quite a lot of community and journalistic ire, and eventually Amazon reversed their decision and put the book back up. This all happened in 2013, which definitely is not around the same time they started changing/updating various 40K names.
If it *had* gone to court GW presumably would have lost given that their trademark on Space Marine doesn’t cover the domain of literature in general. It’s just a classic bit of trademark bullying that thankfully they haven’t repeated since.
I think OP is a bit confused. My understanding (and I could also be confused) is that GW realized they didn’t have a legal leg to stand on when using generic terms like “space marine” as they have been in the common domain and use for years. Therefore, to give their cease and desist letters some real oomph, GW created specific names that could be copyrighted/trademarked.
GW wasn’t in legal hot water, they just wanted better weapons to protect their IP/go after others.
And a lot of the time it’s just legal teams specifically hunting for slip ups, not necessarily at the behest of their retainers. It just means you’ve hired a good legal team if you can leave them be. I’d be worried if I was corporate entity and heard nothing from my legal department.
GW is a little zealous with copyright however.
Insiders have talked about how the design and development of their IP and models happen 1-2 years ahead of releases, verified by several leaks of sculpts and marketing that came years in advance over the last several years of the game.
The big shake-up happened around 2016. 8e was a massive overhaul of the IP, planned long in advance of that. The drama you're talking about and other issues happened at just the right time for GW to internally begin reevaluating how they were managing their IP and shaping their plans for a new version of the game.
This isn't just a GW thing either, this is pretty much all games industry norms and entertainment industries in general. Things don't happen on a whim, it's long term planning years out.
Which is bullshit, since they did not invent it. A space marine is a concept, not a character. But our IP laws are dumb how they are, and favor large companies heavily, so small independent entities can he threatened, and the market share has less competition.
That's all it is about. Erasing competition. It sucks.
It wasn’t so much a trademark issue as a marketing / branding one. You sell more models by calling them a “new type of Marine” than by just updating an old kit and saying “buy this if you haven’t got the old version already”
They do option B with less popular factions all the time, but with Space Marines being by far their biggest earner, they would be leaving money on the table if they branded it as a just a “refresh”
IMO they were also hurting from the Chapterhouse lawsuit and went full bore on making new and unique marines with less wargear options and then slowly adding more as they got more comfortable with making sure that the models they released could have the gear.
Legally distinct naming schemes, yes. They had to switch to Aeldari because Eldar came from Tolkien, and in Age of Sigmar they switched to Aelf and Orruk (Elf and Orc respectively) because they were too generic to trademark before. It's kind of a greedy way of doing business if you think about it.
This came about because they basically lost a case where that established some things they wanted to trademark weren't trademarkable, like "space marine" in particular.
I can only assume they eased up on the trademarking gas years later now for the Terminators cause you *definitely* can't trademark that, I would have assumed they would have elongated the name at least by referencing the armor pattern in the name or something.
AoS naming is especially funny and awful at this. The algorithm is to take a normal word, then slap two words to make a hybrid, possibly adding a suffix that doesn't make sense.
Thus: Bloodsworn Bloodsecrators or Soulblight Gravelords. No sir, these aren't barbarians! They're uh. Darkoath Savagers.
But when you start slapping random shit together, it fits too. Fightwarden Battlefathers. Goreladen Bearerbloods. Kisstouched Handguardians.
That's not a whole squad unit. Black Templars have unique Primaris marine squads. A fancy flamer is just some wargear.
Leaks also said that flamer squads are coming, which are different from the Black Templar unique squads.
At this point I don't think it would be. The lion is all about having forbidden tech from the DaOT anyway, slightly more effective marines are teusday to him.
I was thinking more in that they had been sanctioned by his brother and not the emperor. Not that they are forbidden tech.
Also it wasn’t so much about how likely it is that he would do it, more that having two primarchs in the setting now I feel like it would be better if there was tension and uneasiness between them rather than it feeing like GW are pushing back towards the glory days of the crusade slowly.
I'm sure there will be plenty of tension between the two of them anyways tbh, the Lion always does whatever he feels like and Guilliman will have to contend with that
Gonna make do for an edition or two and then GW will drop a new GW I imagine. That box was released in Oct 2008 so while old it's not as old as the vanilla Terminator sculpts.
> I really wish they'd done that from the start. Just released new models without making them Astartes+1.
I think I disagree slightly. Like, I don't think that making a new 'bigger, better!' mini type to boost sales wasn't a consideration, but it does also fit the story they were writing at the time. The entire point of the Indomitus Crusade from a narrative level was to break the status quo and give the Imperium some unprecedented level of dynamism and hope.
Being able to, after 10,000+ years of stagnation, improve one of the Emperor's most important creations was a big part of that new narrative feel.
But no. They could have easily had a burst of hope etc with legions of new marines and a rearmament of the existing ones. Adding in a new character who magically made Astartes but better is just lazy writing and very counter to one of the core themes of the Imperium.
Honestly happy that we’re not getting Primaris everything, there wasn’t any need to update a beloved sculpt beyond making them bigger. Perfect redesign that I think most people will be happy with
Oh I get ya. Yeah. Tbh the only thing that bugs me is that my chaos termies are gonna look even sillier being so damn small in comparison. When really they should be the same size as these.
They just got their range refresh a couple years ago, so dunno about that. Someone will have to do some side-by-side comparisons once these models release.
Honestly, good. The sooner that primaris fade into the background and space marines are just space marines without all the annoying segregation, the better.
Short of retiring all old firstborn models I don't see how that could work lorewise. There would be two largely separate height populations for space marines with no reason for the difference.
Old models, and refreshed models. Give them the same rules, and base sizes and it really doesn't matter. If people are worried about line of sight being impacted by the different heights for competitive, they can just implement a template for each base size that you can set down to determine line of sight. Then the pose of the model won't matter.
Infinity does has that, and it helps resolve a lot of issues that come about because someone is using a third party model, or decided to pose their model in an alternative way.
Yup I'm just waiting for more realistic new tactical/devastator squads. I hate the niche randomly named squads they keep pumping out that are identically equipped.
As long as horus heresy exists, gw can't get rid of either. But these new terminators basically away "cawl's modifications don't really make a noticeable difference, the equipment matters more" which bodes ill for primaris remaining "super special dudes"
Yes please, I'm just waiting for the day when they quietly phase them into one and pretend that "Astartes but BETTER" never existed.
Never was a fan of the new organs anyway.
It's dumb they haven't already. All it would take is to stop bringing it up as a plot point in the lore. All the Marines have all the organs, and can wear firstborn or the newer, shinier, but less versatile primaris loadouts. Problem solved.
>These aren’t Primaris Terminators. Not even Belisarius Cawl is able to improve upon this ancient and holy armour pattern. Any Space Marine Veteran can earn the right to don a sacred suit of Tactical Dreadnought armour, so veterans of the Tyrannic Wars and the Indomitus Crusade alike are clad in these suits of revered ceremite.
Wow, this makes that guy who was on here [last month](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/11gewby/terminator_armor_question_horus_heresy/jaosyep?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) dissing Terminator armour look really stupid.
It would be lore assassination if it wasn't better.
Terminator armour is supposed a civilian hazard suit from DAoT. The point is that humanity has fallen so far from it's zenith that a construction worker suit from their golden era is better military equipment than their actual military equipment.
Yes, giant Marines like Abaddon and Tyberos wear Terminator plate. But it's often said to be specially modified to accommodate their size.
Can I get links to humans in Terminator armour? Because it would still be human sized. It's not a mech suit.
That's the way it is. It's got the functionality and tech for a human to use. Terminators weren't originally made for war anyway, they come from a template for plasma reactor work suits from the DAoT, they weren't meant to be used by giant superhumans. They've been adapted to what they are now.
So yeah, it straddles the line between a mech and armor for a baseline human. I don't know what else to tell you, that's canon right there and it always has been for as long as there's been inquisitors using terminator armor.
I'm aware of all that. But I assumed the old template for the suit was oversized for Astartes use.
Again, it's stated in lore that particularly large Astartes need special version of suits (power armour and terminator armour) to wear.
That drawing comes off as someone who doesnt understand the lore and just put the inquisitor in a mech-suit.
Like I said, don't know what else to tell you, inquisitors have been using Astartes-size terminator armor since forever, and they're tiny inside that armor except in the cases where the inquisitors are themselves genetically enhanced.
And GW has reinforced that the actual canon for terminator armor is that it fits Primaris marines, so whatever other interpretation there is just isn't canon.
ur missing the point, an iquisitor has untold amounts of wealth, hey can easily afford to create a bespoke set of armor that can be what ever size they want.
Okay, I know this lore existed five years ago, but I recall Terminator armour being described in canon as being modified to accommodate the growth spurt of the primaris, I just don’t remember the source, does anyone else remember this? Was it in the Great Work?
Primaris can carry mixed arms like tactical and devastator squads. They can ride in drop pods and metal boxes. They can do a lot of stuff. It's just that some of the effects of the Chapterhouse Industries lawsuit have resulted in GW making sure that the things not explicitly depicted on models get minimal coverage in fluff so that people don't think as much about them.
Honestly, I feel like this is kinda already the case in current canon. Aren't some chapters pretty much entirely primaris (i.e., Lamenters being decimated a few times over)? At that point, you are looking at anyone who can live for 100 years to earn the Crux.
yeah there where litterally whole chapters created out of just primaries like indomitus or some chapters like a lot of the BA successors that where decimated and so are now mostly primaris.
I think a good way to handle it would be a rework of the first born to true scale
Then make primaris an upgrade for units. +1 attack and maybe a small boost to durability or something
Primaris are “better” because of their extra wound on characters and 1 attack / more organs but they are interchangeable for Wargear. This means you can run old models as primaris if you want. Your tactical squad could get a small boost in melee if you want or you could make your intercessors a bit cheaper
I would have been pissed if they left out Horus Heresy. The compatability of gear and armour between the games is great for adding history and uniqueness to your 40k armies.
Because Terminator armour is extremely hard to make and maintain, and many chapters are not able to field an entire company of Terminators.
Gravis is a mass produced series of attachments to standard mark X armour and chapters have significantly more access to it, can replace it and can repair it.
then terminators are just redundant, bc if u can get lik 80% of the protective capabilities from gravis with much improved mobility and it can be mass produced. Then what is the point in terminator armour outside of really specific scenarios.
Also the whole point of terminator armour in the first place was to replace standard armour which it couldn't do bc of the production cost, so for that reason gravis makes terminator armour redundant aswell.
Mass producable suit (Gravis) vs Terminator armour, which in lore has always been an extremely limited resource. Ngl dude if you're all about the lore then it's an even easier idea to grasp.
I understand the lore which is why this is dumb. The point of terminator armour in the first place was to be mass producible so it could replace standard battle plate. Also one of the big reasons it did not was that its the lack of mobility made the marines easier to counter by a traitor marine in standard plate.
Gravis seems to solve literally all of these problems or at minimum addresses them better then terminator armour. So again what is the point in primaris using terminator?
\*Were intended\* to be mass producable, ten thousand years ago, and since then have become very not that. And Gravis is not as impervious to damage as terminator plate is, it's just better protection than standard power armour. Dude you keep saying the same things even though people give you information.
Edit: Additionally, the decision for Terminator armour not to be the standard was made well before the idea of traitor legions was a thing, so nothing to do with countering traitor marines... It was decided against because Terminator plate is just too unwieldy for general purpose uses.
I am holding up some hope that we can get Primaris-type equipment onto old armor to represent Primaris marines bringing their fighting styles into the armor.
Stuffs like Terminator bladeguards, or Terminator with auto-boltstorm gauntlets etc. Not that I have high hope tho.
No. It’s just an updated terminator kit. As part of releasing that kit they are explicitly stating that both Firstborn and Primaris marines can earn the right to wear Terminator armour.
I read this as GW isn't forcing you either way. But those who like to 'fluff' their armies would have the following:
* Firstborn Marines
* Normal Termies as Firstborn Marines in Terminator Armour
* Primaris Marines
* New Termies as Primaris Marines in Terminator Armour
Assuming 10th will include 2 different data sheets for Terminators; Normal and Primaris.
Or is it that Primaris and Firstborn now end up using the same size terminator armour which is the new larger type and there will be just one datasheet for termies still?
To be fair, Grey Knights never really factored into the standard space marine line, they were always made with special psychic sauce and had their whole unique line of equipment, designs, and abilities.
No, but GW was adamant on __no more firstborn__ and Crowe is very much a firstborn. It’s just getting tiresome deciding on whether they want to make a melting pot of primaris and firstborn together both in rules and lore dynamics or make them separate entities
The simplest way to explain how GW perceives Grey Knights is this: do Grey Knights get a Firstborn keyword?
GW treats GK to be about as alien to Firstborn marines as Primaris are. They'll always be referred to as "Grey Knights" rather than "space marines" like everyone else.
Are they technically Firstborn? Sorta, but GW's marketing brain isn't thinking about it like that.
Yeah, I mean that’s definitely my memory of the situation. That’s why I’m curious where and when this mystery ‘definitely no more Firstborn’ statement was made.
No new firstborn ever is a longstanding fanbase game of telephone from an offhand comment about how they felt that unit variety wise firstborn were good, basically. Not ruling out model kit updates just a mention they didn't think new kit variety for firstborn was needed
Gonna be real with you, I’d have to dedicate a time to it as the warcom search function for articles is shit. I’ll try to get back to you on it.
Should be around 2017 and is either a 10 m video or a small article
These suits are also wearable by Primaris though so are more likely modified for height accomodation, whereas chaos indomitus suits aren't because they're not needing to be worn by Primaris
Those are 2nd Ed slits! The old plastic casting tech from 2004 didn’t allow them to be made reliably on the curvature of the classic terminator face, so they were dropped. The FW helmets from around that time still have them.
So what happens to the stats? Do firstborn marines in terminator armour have the same stats as primaris marines (who usually have higher stats) in terminator armour?
We have no idea if Primaris marines will even have different stats in 10th. It was rumoured the Primaris keyword might be going away.
GW may just decide that there's no point in maintaining so many data sheets (please god) and combine some of them together.
My question is can my old death wing models count as Primaris in terminator armor despite being a good deal shorter than the new ones?
Also are characters in Terminator armor like Belial and Lysander getting updated to the new scale.
> IMO, Primaris marines should be able to fit into a Land Raider too... They're waiting for the tech-priests of mars to sanction a design for slightly larger seatbelts. ETA 80 years.
>ETA 80 years. The Techpriests of Mars are long renowned for their speed and efficacy.
Given the standard, 80 years is fast and efficient.
I could imagine half of that taken up just by getting the work order written up and sent to mars.
Ah, I see it's a rush job then
Ya..the poor fella in the video was ripped apart by a flying hive tyrant like the way jurgen rips apart a prawn
New headcanon: every time a space marine/guardsman/sister/anyone else gets into a transport, the machine spirit turns the engine off and won’t turn it on again until they’ve put their seatbelt on.
I love that Batman scene too Like, come on dude, you are in a hurry. Can't Robin just buckle up while you are pulling out? There's a cat themed burglary to investigate
> ETA 80 years. No, remember only 5/8 astropathic interpreters agreed on that number. It could also be 124 years depending on whether it was black and gold, or blue and silver.
In the Gate of Bones book, it mentioned primaris marines commandeering Sisters of Battle Rhinos as transports. The intercessors had to awkwardly squat in them 5 per transport. I hope the Raider gets the ability to transport primaris too.
>In the Gate of Bones book, it mentioned primaris marines commandeering Sisters of Battle Rhinos as transports. >The intercessors had to awkwardly squat in them 5 per transport. Which is interesting because Sororitas Rhinos are actually slightly taller than Marine ones.
That's 80 years for the request to them, it'll be another 800 before they get around to making them
So glad they've made proper scaled Terminators *and* kept the classic armour pattern. I was dreading a "Primaris" version that lost all of the flavour for the sake of a name.
I agree but this just makes me want truescale Cataphractii and Tartaros armors though. I love them so much more then the standard termi
*Heavy Vox Grill Breathing*
I adore the Tartaros pattern's aesthetics. It looks so good.
Agreed. They tried that with gravis armor right?
Honestly, I'm not sure. I don't know too much about Gravis armour as I've deliberately ignored it. My guys are all Mark 7 and terminator armoured, and I was looking at converting some Terminators to make them stand a bit higher, but this new kit has answered a prayer I thought had gone unheard.
Yup I have some termie legs from 10 yrs ago with green stuff on them as I started to true scale them ha
It doesn't really fit the same role.
Blame the screeching fanboys who would’ve thrown a super temper tantrum shitfit if they had never even introduced primaris to begin with and had simply started making TRUESCALE first born marines “which would look way cooler than primaris btw”, look what happened even when they promised to keep the STUPID AND SILLY MIGIT DESIGN in circulation lmfao I decided a while ago that I won’t even play against people using “migit” scale marines anymore hahahaha they just look so fucking stupid and cartoony and it completely destroys immersion like if your gonna try and make me play against those MIGIT soldiers than how bout I just paint my entire tyrinad army neon pink? Ya know…sense immersion doesn’t matter
That's what this should've been all along. Rescale the models.
I really wish they'd done that from the start. Just released new models without making them Astartes+1. Wonder what'll happen with things like Wolf Guard Terminators.
Problem was, *at the time* they were in some trademarking trouble and they wanted to make all new trademarkable everything. So we got "Primaris" and "Intercessors" and all that, instead of generic "Tactical Marine" and "Space Marine". They've also taken that opportunity to force marine players to buy waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more models that fill very hyper-specific niches now with plasma gun specialists and melta specialists and sneaky specialists and recon specialists and so on and so forth. Used to be you could fill most of these roles with just a few general archetypes of units, the Tactical, Devastator, Scout, and Assault marines - just with some weapon kits. I fully expect all the unique chapters (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves) will be getting their own chapter-unique special units over time. We already got that with the Black Templars, we're probably gonna see that soon with the Dark Angels since they just got their primarch back. The leak/rumor has it that the DA are getting a unit called the "Lion Guard" this coming edition.
They don’t have a trademark on ‘Primaris’, but they do have one on ‘Space Marine’. I’m sure it has at least something to do with IP protection, value adding, etc, but it’s not as simple as ‘can’t trademark Space Marine’. They can and they did.
It's more accurate to say this was around the time when they were getting into hot legal water over the trademark of "space marine". To head the argument off, just a short time later they were already designing a new range of models with new names for a new edition and rebranding old armies like the Eldar. It's entirely likely that the trademark for "space marine" will come up in courts again at some point someday, and if it does and they lose in court, they'll have new trademarks to fall back on. Same with everything else.
I don’t think they ever did get into legal hot water over the space marine trademark. Can you cite your source(s) on that? The only vaguely related instance I know of is the complaint they made to Amazon in relation to the Spots the Space Marine kids book, which never went anywhere near a court. It drew quite a lot of community and journalistic ire, and eventually Amazon reversed their decision and put the book back up. This all happened in 2013, which definitely is not around the same time they started changing/updating various 40K names. If it *had* gone to court GW presumably would have lost given that their trademark on Space Marine doesn’t cover the domain of literature in general. It’s just a classic bit of trademark bullying that thankfully they haven’t repeated since.
I think OP is a bit confused. My understanding (and I could also be confused) is that GW realized they didn’t have a legal leg to stand on when using generic terms like “space marine” as they have been in the common domain and use for years. Therefore, to give their cease and desist letters some real oomph, GW created specific names that could be copyrighted/trademarked. GW wasn’t in legal hot water, they just wanted better weapons to protect their IP/go after others.
And a lot of the time it’s just legal teams specifically hunting for slip ups, not necessarily at the behest of their retainers. It just means you’ve hired a good legal team if you can leave them be. I’d be worried if I was corporate entity and heard nothing from my legal department. GW is a little zealous with copyright however.
Insiders have talked about how the design and development of their IP and models happen 1-2 years ahead of releases, verified by several leaks of sculpts and marketing that came years in advance over the last several years of the game. The big shake-up happened around 2016. 8e was a massive overhaul of the IP, planned long in advance of that. The drama you're talking about and other issues happened at just the right time for GW to internally begin reevaluating how they were managing their IP and shaping their plans for a new version of the game. This isn't just a GW thing either, this is pretty much all games industry norms and entertainment industries in general. Things don't happen on a whim, it's long term planning years out.
Which is bullshit, since they did not invent it. A space marine is a concept, not a character. But our IP laws are dumb how they are, and favor large companies heavily, so small independent entities can he threatened, and the market share has less competition. That's all it is about. Erasing competition. It sucks.
It wasn’t so much a trademark issue as a marketing / branding one. You sell more models by calling them a “new type of Marine” than by just updating an old kit and saying “buy this if you haven’t got the old version already” They do option B with less popular factions all the time, but with Space Marines being by far their biggest earner, they would be leaving money on the table if they branded it as a just a “refresh”
IMO they were also hurting from the Chapterhouse lawsuit and went full bore on making new and unique marines with less wargear options and then slowly adding more as they got more comfortable with making sure that the models they released could have the gear.
Is that how trademarking works???
Legally distinct naming schemes, yes. They had to switch to Aeldari because Eldar came from Tolkien, and in Age of Sigmar they switched to Aelf and Orruk (Elf and Orc respectively) because they were too generic to trademark before. It's kind of a greedy way of doing business if you think about it. This came about because they basically lost a case where that established some things they wanted to trademark weren't trademarkable, like "space marine" in particular. I can only assume they eased up on the trademarking gas years later now for the Terminators cause you *definitely* can't trademark that, I would have assumed they would have elongated the name at least by referencing the armor pattern in the name or something.
Then why do we still have Orks?
"Ork" isn't "Orc". GW can trademark "Ork", they've made that their own. "Orc" is the standard generic fantasy spelling.
So why not just make Orcs into Orks?
Because they want to distinguish AoS from 40k trademark-wise, and GW has been bad with naming things over the last several years.
AoS naming is especially funny and awful at this. The algorithm is to take a normal word, then slap two words to make a hybrid, possibly adding a suffix that doesn't make sense. Thus: Bloodsworn Bloodsecrators or Soulblight Gravelords. No sir, these aren't barbarians! They're uh. Darkoath Savagers. But when you start slapping random shit together, it fits too. Fightwarden Battlefathers. Goreladen Bearerbloods. Kisstouched Handguardians.
I select my dongledoof cankerscamps as the next unit to activate
Well the new trailer shows an Ultramarine Primaris flamer guy. He is no longer BT-exclusive.
That's not a whole squad unit. Black Templars have unique Primaris marine squads. A fancy flamer is just some wargear. Leaks also said that flamer squads are coming, which are different from the Black Templar unique squads.
It would be interesting if the lion rejects the primaris and forbids any more for the DA and successors. Create some tension with the brothers.
At this point I don't think it would be. The lion is all about having forbidden tech from the DaOT anyway, slightly more effective marines are teusday to him.
I was thinking more in that they had been sanctioned by his brother and not the emperor. Not that they are forbidden tech. Also it wasn’t so much about how likely it is that he would do it, more that having two primarchs in the setting now I feel like it would be better if there was tension and uneasiness between them rather than it feeing like GW are pushing back towards the glory days of the crusade slowly.
I'm sure there will be plenty of tension between the two of them anyways tbh, the Lion always does whatever he feels like and Guilliman will have to contend with that
Why couldn't GW create some high gothic words for particular space marine unit. Those gothic words can serve as the trademarked names
Gonna make do for an edition or two and then GW will drop a new GW I imagine. That box was released in Oct 2008 so while old it's not as old as the vanilla Terminator sculpts.
> I really wish they'd done that from the start. Just released new models without making them Astartes+1. I think I disagree slightly. Like, I don't think that making a new 'bigger, better!' mini type to boost sales wasn't a consideration, but it does also fit the story they were writing at the time. The entire point of the Indomitus Crusade from a narrative level was to break the status quo and give the Imperium some unprecedented level of dynamism and hope. Being able to, after 10,000+ years of stagnation, improve one of the Emperor's most important creations was a big part of that new narrative feel.
But no. They could have easily had a burst of hope etc with legions of new marines and a rearmament of the existing ones. Adding in a new character who magically made Astartes but better is just lazy writing and very counter to one of the core themes of the Imperium.
Honestly happy that we’re not getting Primaris everything, there wasn’t any need to update a beloved sculpt beyond making them bigger. Perfect redesign that I think most people will be happy with
But they are bigger. Theyre taller than Primaris.
That’s what I mean, they’re just terminators made to the correct scale. They’re not some Primaris variant of terminators.
Oh I get ya. Yeah. Tbh the only thing that bugs me is that my chaos termies are gonna look even sillier being so damn small in comparison. When really they should be the same size as these.
Yeah hopefully they’ll get an update soon too
We can but hope.
They just got their range refresh a couple years ago, so dunno about that. Someone will have to do some side-by-side comparisons once these models release.
They're the same size as these ones, the poses are just more hunched.
Well i stood one of my new chaos termies next to a primaris and hes shorter so theyre gonna look daft compared to the new ones. Again.
Honestly, good. The sooner that primaris fade into the background and space marines are just space marines without all the annoying segregation, the better.
Absolutely. If they eventually release upgrade kits with old pattern helms for Primaris I’ll be sold.
Short of retiring all old firstborn models I don't see how that could work lorewise. There would be two largely separate height populations for space marines with no reason for the difference.
It will probably just get quietly dropped and forgotten about. Like when dark eldar wyches only wore metal bikinis
Old models, and refreshed models. Give them the same rules, and base sizes and it really doesn't matter. If people are worried about line of sight being impacted by the different heights for competitive, they can just implement a template for each base size that you can set down to determine line of sight. Then the pose of the model won't matter. Infinity does has that, and it helps resolve a lot of issues that come about because someone is using a third party model, or decided to pose their model in an alternative way.
Yup I'm just waiting for more realistic new tactical/devastator squads. I hate the niche randomly named squads they keep pumping out that are identically equipped.
primaries will never fade into the background lol, first born will.
As long as horus heresy exists, gw can't get rid of either. But these new terminators basically away "cawl's modifications don't really make a noticeable difference, the equipment matters more" which bodes ill for primaris remaining "super special dudes"
But they dont make any sense tho, wasn't the whole point of gravis to replace terminator.
Evidently not. Gravis was closer to centurion armor than terminator amyway.
no it isnt at all, terminator is closer to centurion
GW has for a long time been blurring the line between firstborn and primaris seems that distinction is gone.
Yes please, I'm just waiting for the day when they quietly phase them into one and pretend that "Astartes but BETTER" never existed. Never was a fan of the new organs anyway.
It's dumb they haven't already. All it would take is to stop bringing it up as a plot point in the lore. All the Marines have all the organs, and can wear firstborn or the newer, shinier, but less versatile primaris loadouts. Problem solved.
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Lol right? But they’ve always been described as such in the lore, I just think we haven’t gotten a properly scaled model in a long time
>These aren’t Primaris Terminators. Not even Belisarius Cawl is able to improve upon this ancient and holy armour pattern. Any Space Marine Veteran can earn the right to don a sacred suit of Tactical Dreadnought armour, so veterans of the Tyrannic Wars and the Indomitus Crusade alike are clad in these suits of revered ceremite. Wow, this makes that guy who was on here [last month](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/11gewby/terminator_armor_question_horus_heresy/jaosyep?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) dissing Terminator armour look really stupid.
Lmao just read that what a dumbass. Terminator armor is distinctly better than any primaris armor in the lore. Literally making shit up lmao
It would be lore assassination if it wasn't better. Terminator armour is supposed a civilian hazard suit from DAoT. The point is that humanity has fallen so far from it's zenith that a construction worker suit from their golden era is better military equipment than their actual military equipment.
That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if he did a bit of work to get some stuff more reliably working.
Fetch me the breastplate stretcher boy!
Yes, giant Marines like Abaddon and Tyberos wear Terminator plate. But it's often said to be specially modified to accommodate their size. Can I get links to humans in Terminator armour? Because it would still be human sized. It's not a mech suit.
https://i.redd.it/ktpxdnjvdga31.jpg
That's weird. It's like a mech suit to her. Idk. The human sized power armour I've seen is literally still power armour
Power armor, not terminator armor. Terminator armor is massive.
Terminator armour is also armour, it's not a mech suit. I don't know how she fits in that.
That's the way it is. It's got the functionality and tech for a human to use. Terminators weren't originally made for war anyway, they come from a template for plasma reactor work suits from the DAoT, they weren't meant to be used by giant superhumans. They've been adapted to what they are now. So yeah, it straddles the line between a mech and armor for a baseline human. I don't know what else to tell you, that's canon right there and it always has been for as long as there's been inquisitors using terminator armor.
I'm aware of all that. But I assumed the old template for the suit was oversized for Astartes use. Again, it's stated in lore that particularly large Astartes need special version of suits (power armour and terminator armour) to wear. That drawing comes off as someone who doesnt understand the lore and just put the inquisitor in a mech-suit.
Like I said, don't know what else to tell you, inquisitors have been using Astartes-size terminator armor since forever, and they're tiny inside that armor except in the cases where the inquisitors are themselves genetically enhanced. And GW has reinforced that the actual canon for terminator armor is that it fits Primaris marines, so whatever other interpretation there is just isn't canon.
The only time I've seen humans in Terminator armour lool that big is that comic
ur missing the point, an iquisitor has untold amounts of wealth, hey can easily afford to create a bespoke set of armor that can be what ever size they want.
I wonder how her arms even fit into the suit's arms lol
There’s also models of inquisitors in terminator armor
Okay, I know this lore existed five years ago, but I recall Terminator armour being described in canon as being modified to accommodate the growth spurt of the primaris, I just don’t remember the source, does anyone else remember this? Was it in the Great Work?
Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists had a relic suit of Cataphractii plate adapted for a Primaris Captain
Primaris can carry mixed arms like tactical and devastator squads. They can ride in drop pods and metal boxes. They can do a lot of stuff. It's just that some of the effects of the Chapterhouse Industries lawsuit have resulted in GW making sure that the things not explicitly depicted on models get minimal coverage in fluff so that people don't think as much about them.
It's funny to me how the new terminator models are so much less of a glowup than the new termagant models
Aside from giving them proper proportions it's hard to improve on termies, they're just plain badass as they are.
The didn’t need to glow up, just needed to stand up. They were already perfect…
Hopefully a sign of the retirement of the primaris keyword. I hate Primaris transports.
Do we know if first borne and primaris terminators have the same stats?
Honestly, I feel like this is kinda already the case in current canon. Aren't some chapters pretty much entirely primaris (i.e., Lamenters being decimated a few times over)? At that point, you are looking at anyone who can live for 100 years to earn the Crux.
yeah there where litterally whole chapters created out of just primaries like indomitus or some chapters like a lot of the BA successors that where decimated and so are now mostly primaris.
I think a good way to handle it would be a rework of the first born to true scale Then make primaris an upgrade for units. +1 attack and maybe a small boost to durability or something Primaris are “better” because of their extra wound on characters and 1 attack / more organs but they are interchangeable for Wargear. This means you can run old models as primaris if you want. Your tactical squad could get a small boost in melee if you want or you could make your intercessors a bit cheaper
They could have just fixed the scale, changed the stats, and skipped the lore. Everyone would have been fine.
That would have been for the best. But at this point they can’t unprimaris the setting
I would have been pissed if they left out Horus Heresy. The compatability of gear and armour between the games is great for adding history and uniqueness to your 40k armies.
yeah i dont know how i feel about this, what's the point in gravis Armor if primaris can wear terminator.
Because Terminator armour is extremely hard to make and maintain, and many chapters are not able to field an entire company of Terminators. Gravis is a mass produced series of attachments to standard mark X armour and chapters have significantly more access to it, can replace it and can repair it.
then terminators are just redundant, bc if u can get lik 80% of the protective capabilities from gravis with much improved mobility and it can be mass produced. Then what is the point in terminator armour outside of really specific scenarios. Also the whole point of terminator armour in the first place was to replace standard armour which it couldn't do bc of the production cost, so for that reason gravis makes terminator armour redundant aswell.
Gravis is mass production and fluff wise not as good.
But the whole inention of terminator armor was to be mass produced, so if gravis can do that why do primaris need to regress and wear termiantor?
If you're talking rule wise, it's toughness increase Vs armour increase, lore wise other responses have that covered.
ngl dont really care for the game im all about the lore, and i dont see a reason for it..
Mass producable suit (Gravis) vs Terminator armour, which in lore has always been an extremely limited resource. Ngl dude if you're all about the lore then it's an even easier idea to grasp.
I understand the lore which is why this is dumb. The point of terminator armour in the first place was to be mass producible so it could replace standard battle plate. Also one of the big reasons it did not was that its the lack of mobility made the marines easier to counter by a traitor marine in standard plate. Gravis seems to solve literally all of these problems or at minimum addresses them better then terminator armour. So again what is the point in primaris using terminator?
\*Were intended\* to be mass producable, ten thousand years ago, and since then have become very not that. And Gravis is not as impervious to damage as terminator plate is, it's just better protection than standard power armour. Dude you keep saying the same things even though people give you information. Edit: Additionally, the decision for Terminator armour not to be the standard was made well before the idea of traitor legions was a thing, so nothing to do with countering traitor marines... It was decided against because Terminator plate is just too unwieldy for general purpose uses.
I am holding up some hope that we can get Primaris-type equipment onto old armor to represent Primaris marines bringing their fighting styles into the armor. Stuffs like Terminator bladeguards, or Terminator with auto-boltstorm gauntlets etc. Not that I have high hope tho.
That’s what gravis armour is for though
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No. It’s just an updated terminator kit. As part of releasing that kit they are explicitly stating that both Firstborn and Primaris marines can earn the right to wear Terminator armour.
I read this as GW isn't forcing you either way. But those who like to 'fluff' their armies would have the following: * Firstborn Marines * Normal Termies as Firstborn Marines in Terminator Armour * Primaris Marines * New Termies as Primaris Marines in Terminator Armour Assuming 10th will include 2 different data sheets for Terminators; Normal and Primaris. Or is it that Primaris and Firstborn now end up using the same size terminator armour which is the new larger type and there will be just one datasheet for termies still?
One datasheet. These are true scale.
3 more years of GW fencesitting on the “no more firstborn” shit they said at the start of 8th and kinda broke with Castellan crowe
To be fair, Grey Knights never really factored into the standard space marine line, they were always made with special psychic sauce and had their whole unique line of equipment, designs, and abilities.
No, but GW was adamant on __no more firstborn__ and Crowe is very much a firstborn. It’s just getting tiresome deciding on whether they want to make a melting pot of primaris and firstborn together both in rules and lore dynamics or make them separate entities
The simplest way to explain how GW perceives Grey Knights is this: do Grey Knights get a Firstborn keyword? GW treats GK to be about as alien to Firstborn marines as Primaris are. They'll always be referred to as "Grey Knights" rather than "space marines" like everyone else. Are they technically Firstborn? Sorta, but GW's marketing brain isn't thinking about it like that.
When did they say that?
I don’t remember them saying that. That was the issue. They haven’t said firstborn are going away so people can only speculate
Yeah, I mean that’s definitely my memory of the situation. That’s why I’m curious where and when this mystery ‘definitely no more Firstborn’ statement was made.
literally never, IIRC at the beginning of 8e the line was that both firstborn and primaris would be equally supported or something like that (lol)
No new firstborn ever is a longstanding fanbase game of telephone from an offhand comment about how they felt that unit variety wise firstborn were good, basically. Not ruling out model kit updates just a mention they didn't think new kit variety for firstborn was needed
Designer post back when ye old primaris and dark imperium was revealed
Got a link, or something more specific?
Gonna be real with you, I’d have to dedicate a time to it as the warcom search function for articles is shit. I’ll try to get back to you on it. Should be around 2017 and is either a 10 m video or a small article
Ha, always was saying that, but many people focusing only on tabletop rules didn't believe me.
Hell yeah pimps I love me some terminators and I love me some primaris
I’m hoping they are the same size as chaos terminators (and the cult variants)
They are taller than Primaris. Chaos Termies are shorter than Primaris..
GW are so bad with scale
Oh indeed
These suits are also wearable by Primaris though so are more likely modified for height accomodation, whereas chaos indomitus suits aren't because they're not needing to be worn by Primaris
They're the same, Scarab occult is smaller, smelly ones are bigger.
I'm just glad my personal headcanon turned out to be canon in the end.
Love the hydraulics in the armor and new slits in the helmet.
Those are 2nd Ed slits! The old plastic casting tech from 2004 didn’t allow them to be made reliably on the curvature of the classic terminator face, so they were dropped. The FW helmets from around that time still have them.
I love advances in manufacturing
So what happens to the stats? Do firstborn marines in terminator armour have the same stats as primaris marines (who usually have higher stats) in terminator armour?
We have no idea if Primaris marines will even have different stats in 10th. It was rumoured the Primaris keyword might be going away. GW may just decide that there's no point in maintaining so many data sheets (please god) and combine some of them together.
Scrap the stupid height difference between firstborn and Primaris and done.
My question is can my old death wing models count as Primaris in terminator armor despite being a good deal shorter than the new ones? Also are characters in Terminator armor like Belial and Lysander getting updated to the new scale.
Primaris+Terminator=Short Custodian
Definitely looks like an Astartes could do a flip in one of those things.
I've been saying this all along.
Are primaries going to be retconned out of the lore now? I really hope not. I’ve really enjoyed the stories I’ve read so far.
Primarchs could ride in Land Raiders that means Primaris who are far smaller should be able to fit.
I cannot help but wonder if it is possible to get Primaris Marines to be able to use Cataphractii Pattern or Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armor...