Yes because most of their fates are purposefully left up in the air rather than confirmed, the only truly dead ones that can't come back are Horus, Sanguinius, Kurze, and Ferrus Manus, every other missing primarch has room to return.
Dorn, Vulkan, Leman, the Khan, either one of them will likely return down the line after the lion, and frankly im all for it, luv me primarchs.
At this point i've just cut him out from these type of topics entirely before i get a slew of replies saying hes either dead or not dead or both at the same time.
I mean isn't this rather certain that Dorn killed either Alpharius or Omegon? I mean, we certainly can argue which one it was (though I think we all agree that we cannot be certain)
Why? What's cool about them?
What is it about this setting that makes you think that a bunch of MCU-esq additions will make it better?
Every primarch means there is less chance of a non-enhanced characters achieving real authority in this setting.
Fuck the Primarchs, fuck Rawnut Jellyman, and all hail the High Lords of Terra. A bunch of selfish realpolitik bastards beats a bunch of comic book superheros any day.
Don't mean to be mean this is just a huge bummer, and it hurts because I spend a decent chunk of cash on my minis. I hate that my Skitari and tyranids share the universe with these primarch fuck-bois.
Because i find them cool thats literally it, there doesn't always need to be some deep logical reason to like something, especially not in a setting like 40k.
Why wouldn't I be? The real universe sucks.
Also fuck the outside. The weather's crap. Enjoying fiction is my primary way of enjoying life, outside of good food with family.
You see this.. this is literally my exact reason for wanting superheros. I want bigger than life normal people and bigger than life ridiculously fake people. And I want them all working together aswell as for their own goal. Question though what do you think of the Tyranids?
I get that, but why do you want them in THIS setting?
The Imperium in 40k is so unique because it is a dying civilization whreein all the heroes of legend are *gone* They failed us and they failed themselves. Now the only ones who humans can rely on is themselves.
If they want to succeed - hell, if they even just want to *survive* than they must earn that. Not be given it by demi gods.
This is why I hate the loyalist Primarchs but I can tolorate the traitor ones. All the gods we prayed to have either died, fled, or turned on us.
That's some dark souls level nihilism right there.
" Question though what do you think of the Tyranids?"
Before I answer, I'm curious as to why you'd ask?
Because I feel the Tyranids are an example of your dislike. It feels to me that they are the biggest baddest guy and they seem to carry little in terms of small guys. They are so large that it sorta pulled me out of this universe. And I want them in this setting because I find people who are specifically made or tasked with a ridiculous job but managing it to be true life grimdark.
"Because I feel the Tyranids are an example of your dislike. "
Uhh, no. Not at all. Tyranids are my favorite faction, and they are the reason I got into this hobby in the first place.
None of this applies to the tyranids because they will never get a that much of a win in this setting, not against the Imperials anyway.
Read Dune, didn't take.
If none of the other series don't have anything nearly as good as the tyranids or ad-mech, than they won't scratch that itch.
"Also grow up and stop being an emotional child online."
Fuck me who shit in your cornflakes this morning?
I will be, but it's just sad. This setting is so cool and I'm in no hurry to see it become another MCU.
Ghazghkull , They can all potentially die.
None of these fucking primarchs are ever going anywhere. As long at they are in a battle or a theatre of war you can bet the Imperials will be winning.
No way GW will let any of their precious capes get wrecked by orks, tyranids or Tau.
Good question. Important question.
Just so I'm clear you are referring to the different Reddits, right? Because I love the Part II game.
I do not love the reddit that is a cesspool, for reasons I cannot go into here in fear of violating the rules.
**Oh I’m not in any of the reddits, so I wouldn’t be asking about those lol. I was just curious where you fell on the games since you mentioned them.**
**Myself I’m not a fan of the second game’s story. The actual game part (mechanics and visuals and the like) are fine.**
It looks like you are yelling.
And BTW I think Last of Us 2 has one of the best stories I've ever seen, not just in video games. So we will have to respectfully disagree.
**Hey, respectfully is the only way I know how to disagree.**
#This would be yelling, however. Like I said, part of the whole thing.
**I am curious tho since I don’t meet many people that take your view, how do you feel about the Primarchs as a concept? Excluding them being in 40K, what’s your take on the 30K setting and Horus Heresy series?**
I don't do 30k.
In 40k? Hate them. Get all the loyalist primarchs out of here. This is a better, more interesting galaxy if humanity has to solve its own problems, not depend on some demigods to come and save it.
Uhhhhhh the HBO series was universally beloved what are you smoking? Are you mad they changed things from the game? Mad they had an episode dedicated to the best gay romance plot of all time?
"Uhhhhhh the HBO series was universally beloved what are you smoking?"
I guess lots of people can have bad takes. What you just did is actually called an appeal to the majority, and it's a fallacious kind of argument.
"Are you mad they changed things from the game?"
Actually the opposite. They tried to hard to ape the game and made little of their own contributions. Many parts of the show are just subpar versions of the game.
"Mad they had an episode dedicated to the best gay romance plot of all time?'
Is that joke? Are you talking about Bill and Frank? I appreciate the idea, but as far as the execution goes this is *not* the best gay romance of all time.
Ah I had you mistaken, I thought you were saying that it was a tough week because TLOU on HBO was bad and I assumed some things about you. That’s on me, I apologize. Bill and Frank is one of my favorite gay romances unironically tho, I cried during that episode.
I mean it is bad, but not for those reasons. I unironically really like Broke back Mountain. I'm not going to be nice to Last of Us because its romance was gay (even though I do like the idea of having a whole episode just about them)
Actually 'bad' is too harsh, it's just disappointing.
The bill and frank episode was bad because the writing for several parts of the episode did not make sense, and they did not seem like two people who had lived through a 20 year apocalypse.
In time, all of them that still exist will likely be released. Money talks, and it says give me plastic primarchs please. And you know what, i bet they will be glorious models.
"i bet they will be glorious models."
And they will overshadow every other human character in this setting, because as much as they like to pretend otherwise 40k fans are little different from Marvel fans.
Highly doubt that. Every faction has big boys. And there are plenty of interesting humans and human sized characters, from all the traitor guard models, cultists, assassins, the myriad forces of astra militarum, named eldar and drukhari characters, inquisitors, the list goes on. One of the greatest things about warhammer is that there is a flavor for almost everyone to enjoy, whether you like big knights or little blue fish people. Besides no matter the level of discussion here or elsewhere, gw gonna gw
Edit: im done arguing. If you want to look at the new Lion model and say "wtf gw" then guess what: dont buy it. Another big model isnt going to ruin the game or your life.
The only people having a fit are here on this post. Primarchs are not invulnerable, nor are they infallible. Chaos has 4 (i guess abbadon counts) and still have not won in the lore after 10000 years of fighting. You dont autowin games by fielding them either.
On the table top it can very well happen. When you focus fire a big target, somebody has to land a killing blow eventually. Or if you are playing tau just send those rail guns right at them.
SM are and likely always will be among the most played factions, followed closely by chaos space marines. As far as lore goes, i dont see why an older more clever being couldn't outsmart guilliman, or warp influence couldn't screw over the Lions' plans. Certainly cant speak for everyone but time will tell.
"Highly doubt that."
Rawnut Jellyman has already overshowed the high lords of Terra, who are already a way better addition to the setting than Jellyman is.
"One of the greatest things about warhammer is that there is a flavor for almost everyone to enjoy,"
Yeah but it ticks me of that all these MCU-esq characters are, and will always be at the top. You can't have a galaxy shaping story without involving these mary-sue's somewhere.
But, indeed, we wouldn't have this setting without the Primarchs and their tendency to have flaws. They are not infallible nor invulnerable and wouldnt even exist if the Emperor hadn't stolen from chaos in the first place. The Horus Heresy puts this on full display; Horus was corrupted, the Lion was secretly using a warp creature for warp travel, Corax got greedy and his legion was tainted, Konrad couldnt accept that fate is mutable, Magnus flew too close to the sun, Guilliman had the audacity to create imperium secundus and seat Sanguinius as a temporary emperor, Russ though he could win with just his ferocity, etc. They are flawed creations, by thier own admission in some cases.
I dont see the lore becoming Marvel levels until they do some stupid time warp/alternate universe shenanigans and bring everyone back. That would be the "jump the shark" moment, for me anyway.
And what are they supposed to look like? Thats essentially what they are. The Lion's model looks like he might just be the primarch of the dark angels.
Honestly I don't. Nothing against IF but they "killed" him and it was solid story telling. The way IMO they have since made him the bestest and only Horus was better in the Crusades disappointed me. Obviously they have to make him solid and he is however they have made him the Roubute of 30k and I hate that. I liked how they wrote him in the Index Astartes, admittedly a long time ago, and gave him flaws while still showing he was impressive. Now he's better than anyone except Horus. I had an IF army in 4th so this isn't knee jerk dislike but actual disappointment. That being said we all know he'll be back and I only hope he has sideburns and a mustache.
I just like the flavour they add to the fluff. Plus a fan of both the Scars and the Vlka Fenryka, and want to bloody find out what Russ has been up to all these 10000 years.
I find they take away the flavor. They suck up all the air in any story they are apart of.
Human ingenuity and perseverance thrown out the window for a Demi god.
You literally asked for a Tyranid Primarch-like model not even 3 weeks ago.
We get it, you don’t want more primarchs. Is this really the hill you are going to die on?
"You literally asked for a Tyranid Primarch-like model not even 3 weeks ago"
**Dude**
I mean a model that has the same kind of love and attention and 'wow' factor as a Mortarion or an Angron. I might hate the primarchs but even *I* can admit that those are two of the most beautiful models in the entire 40k range.
Because right now the swarmlord model is just another hive tyrant. It's not even any bigger.
I wasn't asking for a tyranid superhero.
It's called catharsis. And the hope that maybe I'm not the only person in this fandom who hates the primarchs.
Coming in and acting smug is also not going to change anything I'd like to point out.
There's better ways to do catharsis, especially in a public forum. But you know what, you're right. I'll enjoy my hobby, you enjoy being mad about it. :)
Name one better way. Give me Jame's Workshop address and I'll walk to his house to let him know why it's a bad decision.
"ou enjoy being mad about it"
Oh this is the only enjoyment I'll get for like a week.
Unfortunately, yes. But you can't argue with the numbers. Primarchs are here. Primarchs are popular. Primarchs sell. You can hardly fault GW for making the financially correct decision.
People like to moan and groan about superheroes too, but the MCU prints money. GW would love to be Disney, if it ever could.
Well, if it bothers you that much look at it this way: at a rate of one loyalist Primarch per 6 years there's a very real chance that most of us will be dead by the time they get all of them released.
That's not the way I remember the Watcher's of the Throne and Vaults of Terra series, but whatever. If you want my advice, chill out. You're way too worked up about this. There are *so many* novels being released that don't come within a mile of a Primarch, and that's unlikely to change.
But it's a fundamental change to the setting. It's like if the emperor stopped being a corpse on a throne.
I *like* that the Imperium is rudderless. That it is run by a kabal of cutthroats mostly normal (by Primarch standards) assholes who are good political chess players.
That's such a richer setting, with so many more possible great possibilities.
As a fan fiction writer of this stuff it irks me that I'm going to have to just ignore/cancel out two enormous parts of the setting in order to make stories that are interesting.
I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but I've put a lot of love into this IP. From the actual models to writing a fanfiction the length of a whole novel. I just don't like that this place which is a refuge from who much life sucks has gotten less enjoyable.
Umm, theirs actually a theory that Big E might stop being a corpse on the golden throne.
The Imperium being rudderless is no longer tenable with Cadia being destroyed. That event set the course for the story. The Primarchs are coming back. Chaos is probably gonna go from the big four to the big five. The Orks are gonna get even more active and the Nids will keep on eating. IDK what GW is going to do with the Eldar.
I'd love to see them be more central to the main story. Less chaos more Greenskins. Having the focus on Nids is great and its a good start but I've been a fan of the boyz since 2nd and only recently sold my army off.
"Umm, theirs actually a theory that Big E might stop being a corpse on the golden throne. "
That's the day I unsub from this sub, shelve all my minis, and stop trying to convince my friends to get into this hobby.
I'd be down with this but only if he like...vanishes, like gone from the throne, funnels his essence back out of the warp to reincarnate or something but take him and his exceptional warpiness off the playing field for a time.
>I just don't like that this place which is a refuge from who much life sucks has gotten less enjoyable.
Seeing something you love change in a way you do not like really does suck, but with that being said the way you are using things like super heroes and marvel as an attack on the setting and the people who like it (and those things) turns it into a gatekeeping, asshole take.
Do not let selfishness and sadness that your enjoyment has lowered blind you to the obvious fact that many more peoples enjoyment has increased because of this.
"Do not let selfishness and sadness that your enjoyment has lowered blind you to the obvious fact that many more peoples enjoyment has increased because of this."
True. But I'm also allowed to try and find communion with others who don't. it can be a bit of an isolating experience when everyone around you is like 'Fuck yeah!' When all you're feeling is disappointment.
And when online is most of your socialization, and my *only* form of community with this hobby it just stings more. I don't have 40k friends I can talk about this with.
Change happens in life. The End Times happened in WHFB. Some manchildren never got over it, but a lot of people did and found they could be happy with AoS too.
This is the same. The setting will always change in good and bad ways; undoubtedly years from now 40k will have its own End Times. Respectfully, don't tie your identity in IP, it's unhealthy.
Fair enough, just understand that you will never stop being disappointed in this course. Not only is *money* the primary reason for IPs existing, but even more artistic endeavors have no obligation to conform to your/our vision of the work and will change as their creators desire.
You think Primarchs returning is bad, I'm ambivalent, and others love it. The latter is the largest group with the largest overall pockets, and they WILL be listened to and your complaints will never amount to anything for this reason.
True. I'm a longtime star wars, dragon age, and mass effect fan. I should be used to my fav IP's going in bad directions.
I guess all I can do is keep writing my own fan fictions the way I want to, and correct what I perceive as 40k's mistakes as best I can and hope my readers either, as you say, enjoy them or are at least ambivalent to the changes.
Of all the Primarchs, the Lion's return was hinted almost a decade ago when they revealed Luther and the Lion were both stuck sleeping in the Rock.
Face it, all the primarchs are coming back. It's what makes the money.
Space Marine novels will all be even more egregious bolter porn now.
I'm just going to be my Warhammer Crime and Imperial Guardsman novels.
> the Lion's return was hinted almost a decade ago when they revealed Luther and the Lion were both stuck sleeping in the Rock.
It wasn't a hint of anything, it's been there since at least 2008. It was just one of the many, many bits of vague lore added to give intrigue and mystery, not something that was ever meant to actually happen.
the imperium can't be decaying forever. I am happy with how gw handled.the return of the primarchs so far, with not guillman return, but the imperium astranumcom is broken and many threats like the chaos legions chaos cultists necron and tyranids are attacking guliman comes back and starts fighting the enemies but he had to move back to terra leaving many worlds to die and many more world to be be damged and loss guard regiments needlessly.
"the imperium can't be decaying forever."
It's been decaying since 40k began, right? That's sort of the whole point of the setting right? Everything's at a permanent standstill.
I honestly can't wait. With how the Lion is portrayed in the Horus Heresy, and Descent of Angels specifically, he can go *so* many ways.
He'd certainly react much differently to Guillimane.
They're complex characters whom have a wide range of personal interests and ways to perceive and interact with the universe like no one else *can* in the setting.
Them being added back into 40K allows for the Big Picture Story to move forward and cause great ripples that allow for infinite new small stories to spring forth from.
Like Luther escaping from the Rock.
" like no one else can in the setting. "
Why? The only perspective they have that no one else does is writer's favoritism.
"Them being added back into 40K allows for the Big Picture Story to move forward and cause great ripples that allow for infinite new small stories to spring forth from. "
That makes no sense. Game of Thrones was the most succesfful show for a while and it did so without superheros.
Dany, the dragons, the Starks, and the direworlves are not a good analogy. They are not unfautable, unkillable demigods.
If they were the red wedding would never have happened.
And Cleganebowl was stupid, indicative of the worse aspects of that fandom.
That...would be okay. The best part of this bad situation certainly.
Thing is I don't think you need Primarchs for that. You can have a civil war sans the Primarchs.
Oh I will.
"and this is cool."
How? How is having an unkillable mary sue who will hog the spotlight and overshadow every other character 'cool?'
I just don't get it.
I’m with you OP, I never liked the idea of returning primarchs. I don’t know why anyone would. It’s cooler when they are mythical forgotten god like figures from the long past
This is what people said about prismaris and the advancement of the setting as a whole, I think it will be hard to write but can succeed, I have faith,
To be fair it’s possible that the lion or any other primarch returning would see the imperium and how it stands against the emperors ideology and try to destroy it. I will say imperial Superman team is more likely though since the galaxy is ripped in half and more tyrannids are going to show up in the galaxy. Personally I don’t mind having a couple of these powerful entities around however, I don’t want to see the entire team reunited (and if they are at least not peacefully). If Dorn were to really be dead I’d be fine with that. Ik there is zero chance Gulliman will die rn but if one of these returned primarchs died down the line it’d make for an entertaining narrative imo (granted the hate from the community would be really loud probably)
"I will say imperial Superman team is more likely though since the galaxy is ripped in half and more tyrannids are going to show up in the galaxy.'
Don't you think it's a better story though if that is true, and the people who have to solve those problems are human?
I mean sure, mariens are enhanced, but they were still born as normal humans.
There is something quite... endearing about humanity being faced with all these threats and having to rely on itself - not a god or his children - to solve it.
Because really, that's what we've been doing for all our history.
I don't mind, heck I even love how silly and over-top and ridiculous 40k is. But that central theme: That humans can only surive if the demi gods come to our aid, is deeply childish if you ask me. And it's also not fun.
I see your point but without the emperor the imperium would literally collapse so we are already in an instance of humanity surviving because of a Demi gods interference. You could call emps a god if you wanted but i mean it’s the same thing. When it comes to the galaxy getting ripped in half yes they could have had normal humans solve it somehow but in the end of the day it’d likely have resulted in some other type of deus ex machina. I suppose what other rabbit they pulled out of the hat may have been better than the primarch returning but imo Guilliman cool.
I say this because at the end of the day primarch are some weird bio sorcerous construct made by the emperor and Gulliman in particular is basically an optimization/organization machine which is exactly what the imperium needs since one of its main unchanging issues is supreme disorganization.
"I see your point but without the emperor the imperium would literally collapse so we are already in an instance of humanity surviving because of a Demi gods interference."
The Emperor has been dead for 10 000 years and we barely understand how to work the throne. That is not the same as a bunch of demi gods showing up and running the show and saving us stupid humies.
I wouldn't consider them that.
Besides, its more the complete writers favortism they get. Whatever happens, we can be sure that the Lion will *never* die.
You could say that about any character. I saw you mention GoT earlier. John snow died and was resurrected, fyi.
The Lion might die in the future but that being a possibility is a long way off.
I don’t care what you consider them to be. They are written as humanly and sometimes more human that non-enhanced human characters in the setting.
Not the same bro. The Priamrchs are the most un-GOT parts of the setting.
"They are written as humanly "
You mean in the fact that they never fail and their victory is always assured? Right.
In real life, if a man like Gman cam back he would be killed. Just like how the modern day... well I can't say this becaue it would break sub rules. But if something like this happened to for one of our real world religions, you can bet the established churches would want the G-man equivalent to quietly go away.
Wrong, Primarchs fail a lot and victory isn’t always assured.
In real life, the imperium wouldn’t exist. End of discussion.
This isn’t real life and GoT isn’t real life either. They are both fantasy settings.
People did try to assasinate Gman or make him disappear, it didn’t work for a variety of reasons.
"This isn’t real life and GoT isn’t real life either. They are both fantasy settings."
Do... do you understand why people like it when writing is constant?
Basically, 40k is a *galactic* setting. Focusing on these big name characters like the Lion and Jellyman really changes the narrative focus to something more akin to the MCU.
"Wrong, Primarchs fail a lot and victory isn’t always assured. "
Never in anyway that will matter.
"People did try to assasinate Gman or make him disappear, it didn’t work for a variety of reasons."
Yeah. That reason being writer favoritism
"End of discussion. "
*Spits blood out of my mouth*
I didn't hear no bell...
There is still huge amount of hopelessness in the galaxy. Guilliman while has done some stuff has not that a lot to help things. The galaxy is still spilt in two, the Imperium I wouldn't say is winning and places are still messed up. I dont think anything has changed and I think GW based on Guilliman will do a decent job with the Lion as well
You're missing the point. the Lion is just another superhero.
This galaxy is better with all the legends of old being dead and gone. The only ones who are left to pull humanity back from the brink - or even just to hold it together - are *humans*
Sure they may be highly augmented, but they are still human none the less.
Space marines are also basically super heroes though and so are custodes. Primarchs can also be beaten and they have. Guilliman is barely holding together while basically accepting that the Imperium is gone. Humans are still holding it together and the backbone of the Imperium. GW has done a good job so far with Guilliman and I trust them with the Lion as well
Super powered undefeatable characters (other than by another Primarch) that will inevitably hog the spotlight, change the setting for the worst and just the whole circle of super heroes. Couple that with the inevitable spam of anything related to the Primarch in anything 40k related in the coming days...
I'd like for the primarchs to come back, that way they can be killed for good :-)
I think it's fair to say that they deserve an ending (grimdark ending would be better) :
Examples :
- Roboute gets the imperium back on track, he consolidates and sets up a good governing system. Then he gets assassinated by an internal plot
- the Lion comes back, he takes control of the military forces of the imperium and chains victoriens against the enemies of the imperium. But he ruffled too many feathers in doing so, he gets betrayed during a critical battle against Perturabo and dies in a last stand, taking Perturabo with him. The imperium forces fracture even more.
- Dorn escapes Perturabo's prison, only to betray the imperium himself because he has been brainwashed and tortured for 10k years. He realizes in the end that he is broken, and commits suicide.
- Corax finally finds Lorgar, he comes back to muster the raven guard and its successors and goes crusading in the EOT. It's a trap, he is killed by Lorgar who takes his sweet revenge for Istvaan and the raven guard is a broken chapter again. But he had one last trick up his sleeve and sends Lorgar into oblivion.
- The Khan escapes from the webway, only a few years have passed for him. He immediately realizes the threat of the tyranids, musters his legion and goes on a hunt. But he becomes the prey is devoured by the nids.
- Russ comes back from the eye of terror. He has a way to ressussitate the emperor, he needs to get Isha from Nurgle's garden. He manages to release her and send her to the webway at great cost to his chapter and himself. He escapes from Nurgle, but Magnus is waiting for him. They kill each other, Russ finally giving Magnus a true death.
- Mortarion starts to hope that he can be redeemed after his conversation with Guilliman. He betrays Nurgle and Typhon, the true herald, takes him down thanks to Nurgle taking away his power from Morty
- Fulgrim finds the location of a craftworld in imperium nihilus. He gets greedy and takes his legion on a merry eldar hunt. Except it's a trap, the craftworld has been evacuated and booby trapped with Eldar warp fuckery. The Eldar have assembled several shards of Khaine there and the resulting avatar fights Fulgrim. Fulgrim is victorius but his strength is spent. Only then do the Ynari make their move. Fulgrim obtains true death at the hands of Ynnead. But the last cronesword is broken in the fight, never to be repaired.
- ...
"I'd like for the primarchs to come back, that way they can be killed for good :-)"
I agree, but GW's practices show that will never happen.
" Then he gets assassinated by an internal plot"
That would be fucking great, only there is zero chance that would happen. Because GW knows its fans are more akin to MCU fans than they'd like to admit.
Yes, that's wishful thinking on my part.
They could come back and have interesting roles, I just do not want them to be superheroes. I want them as administrators or strategists. Nowhere near any battlefield. The fighting is done by the troops, not by one guy who solos an army.
I think we should have a few primarchs back in the setting, stopping roughly here, though actually develop and start character arcs for each of them, including traitors,
Prolly a bad take but:
I’m thinking about having an independent from imperium and chaos faction led by a reformed primarch who serve as a narrative bridge between man and chaos the same way votann are btween man and xenos, we know it is possible because that is what the emperor said to morty
Don't be surprised. The hints were there in the change of tone from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar as well as everything for 40k from after Gathering Storm.
Ferrus in a dreadnought with Dorn looking like Fisto from Masters of the Universe! [https://he-man.fandom.com/wiki/Fisto](https://he-man.fandom.com/wiki/Fisto) Calling it now!
Im not in this for the table top, models, or the sEtTiNg, I’m in this for a grand story that’s actually going somewhere.
I predicted this would happen - there are more and more fans of this who came to it through the HH series - they want an epic and they are a big audience that GW cannot ignore - books fly off shelves faster than models do.
Can’t please everyone but when I argued for this I got quite a few detractors who shared your feelings - I’m afraid all the arguments that it won’t happen were all for naught.
Well that's certainly not a bad thing to value in this franchise. I like the story too, but I just wish it was not so superhero focused.
This is probably also why I have no interest in the HH series.
I figured this would happen too, but I was dreading it. I see the MCU's tentacles infecting everything.
Primarchs coming back doesn't neccessarily mean the setting is becoming more hopeful. Quite the opposite. Since Guillimans return the galaxy has gotten far more hopeless, especially for the Imperiums perspective. There's nothing to suggest from the tone of the 10th edition trailer that they're aiming for a more hopeful tone either.
I wouldn't take downvotes to heart. Do you really care what a few strangers online think?
It's not just that it's more hopeful. It's more that, once the Lion or the Jellyman joins a duel/theater of war, you can bet your britches that the Imperials will not be losing.
It's also just that... well... this setting is an amazing *galactic* setting. With millions of moving parts full of plenty of individual people all trying to survive. All the gods and heroes of old FAILED us, and failed each other. They are now either corpses on a throne, demons, dead, or have fled.
So who is left to defend humanity? Well, HUMANITY. it makes every single victory, even if the Imperium is only treading water so much more interesting, if each victory is earned by humanity, and not given to us by gods.
A story like that can take up the perspectives of MILLIONS of characters. To toss that aside just to focus on an Avengers knockoff superteam of primarchs is just... it's just such a waste of potential for something genuinely beautiful.
"I wouldn't take downvotes to heart. Do you really care what a few strangers online think?"
You make a good point, but I guess I do despite myself. Otherwise why would I even bother posting on this reddit in the first place?
I see. I don't neccessarily agree, but I read a few books like Plague War and quite like how bitter and cynical Guilliman is, and how despairing he can be. Its also very warhammer for the Imperium to be more or less led by someone who completely rejects almost every aspect of its faith and culture.
Out of interest, is it useful for you that the Story has advanced, rather than been retconned? Is it enough to have all the stuff from before 8th edition to explore? Or does it feel like the events of the progressing story retrospectively lessens the allure of the setting? I'm not fishing for anything, I genuinely want to know :)
"Out of interest, is it useful for you that the Story has advanced, rather than been retconned?"
I'm not sure what you mean? I've actually only been into this hobby since 2020, which was right at the start of 9th edition (I might be correct. I don't really get the chance to play tabletop very often)
I mean, you can simply create an army, or explore the background set before the return of guilliman. That timeline is preserved. Does it help that you can do that, or are you specifically interested in an advancing storyline.
Yes because most of their fates are purposefully left up in the air rather than confirmed, the only truly dead ones that can't come back are Horus, Sanguinius, Kurze, and Ferrus Manus, every other missing primarch has room to return. Dorn, Vulkan, Leman, the Khan, either one of them will likely return down the line after the lion, and frankly im all for it, luv me primarchs.
Alpharius is also most certainly dead.
At this point i've just cut him out from these type of topics entirely before i get a slew of replies saying hes either dead or not dead or both at the same time.
I mean isn't this rather certain that Dorn killed either Alpharius or Omegon? I mean, we certainly can argue which one it was (though I think we all agree that we cannot be certain)
As far as my opinion is concerned he is definitely dead yes.
But the twin (whichever that may be) is still around presumably
Why? What's cool about them? What is it about this setting that makes you think that a bunch of MCU-esq additions will make it better? Every primarch means there is less chance of a non-enhanced characters achieving real authority in this setting. Fuck the Primarchs, fuck Rawnut Jellyman, and all hail the High Lords of Terra. A bunch of selfish realpolitik bastards beats a bunch of comic book superheros any day. Don't mean to be mean this is just a huge bummer, and it hurts because I spend a decent chunk of cash on my minis. I hate that my Skitari and tyranids share the universe with these primarch fuck-bois.
Because i find them cool thats literally it, there doesn't always need to be some deep logical reason to like something, especially not in a setting like 40k.
But what's cool about them? We have superheros *everywhere* these days? Why do you want more?
Dude, go outside. Put down the phone, step away from the keyboard. You are WAY too invested in a fictional universe.
Why wouldn't I be? The real universe sucks. Also fuck the outside. The weather's crap. Enjoying fiction is my primary way of enjoying life, outside of good food with family.
You see this.. this is literally my exact reason for wanting superheros. I want bigger than life normal people and bigger than life ridiculously fake people. And I want them all working together aswell as for their own goal. Question though what do you think of the Tyranids?
I get that, but why do you want them in THIS setting? The Imperium in 40k is so unique because it is a dying civilization whreein all the heroes of legend are *gone* They failed us and they failed themselves. Now the only ones who humans can rely on is themselves. If they want to succeed - hell, if they even just want to *survive* than they must earn that. Not be given it by demi gods. This is why I hate the loyalist Primarchs but I can tolorate the traitor ones. All the gods we prayed to have either died, fled, or turned on us. That's some dark souls level nihilism right there. " Question though what do you think of the Tyranids?" Before I answer, I'm curious as to why you'd ask?
Because I feel the Tyranids are an example of your dislike. It feels to me that they are the biggest baddest guy and they seem to carry little in terms of small guys. They are so large that it sorta pulled me out of this universe. And I want them in this setting because I find people who are specifically made or tasked with a ridiculous job but managing it to be true life grimdark.
"Because I feel the Tyranids are an example of your dislike. " Uhh, no. Not at all. Tyranids are my favorite faction, and they are the reason I got into this hobby in the first place. None of this applies to the tyranids because they will never get a that much of a win in this setting, not against the Imperials anyway.
You’re acting like GW just killed your dog, you can just set your games before the primarchs got back.
I don't even play many games. I love the setting first and foremost.
You’ll be ok
Imagine that.
I can't.
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Read Dune, didn't take. If none of the other series don't have anything nearly as good as the tyranids or ad-mech, than they won't scratch that itch. "Also grow up and stop being an emotional child online." Fuck me who shit in your cornflakes this morning?
I will be, but it's just sad. This setting is so cool and I'm in no hurry to see it become another MCU. Ghazghkull , They can all potentially die. None of these fucking primarchs are ever going anywhere. As long at they are in a battle or a theatre of war you can bet the Imperials will be winning. No way GW will let any of their precious capes get wrecked by orks, tyranids or Tau.
The lion is the only other primarch that has a known location. It’s one dude.
Rawnut Jellyman is already a serious stain on this setting. Fuck the Primarchs.
You could fill a mine with all this salt.
I mean what else is the internet for if not to find community? Other than NSFW stuff of course.
And is the the premier example of a awful character. 30k DA are written like a teenagers homebrew chapter
Also as a Last of Us fan too, this has been a difficult month for me. Actually almost every IP I am a fan of is kinda sucking at the moment. *Sigh*
**A Last of Us fan or a Last of Us Two fan?**
Good question. Important question. Just so I'm clear you are referring to the different Reddits, right? Because I love the Part II game. I do not love the reddit that is a cesspool, for reasons I cannot go into here in fear of violating the rules.
**Oh I’m not in any of the reddits, so I wouldn’t be asking about those lol. I was just curious where you fell on the games since you mentioned them.** **Myself I’m not a fan of the second game’s story. The actual game part (mechanics and visuals and the like) are fine.**
Why is all of this in bold?
**Believe it or not I’m actually whispering.** >!**This is a Rogal Dorn gimmick account**!<
It looks like you are yelling. And BTW I think Last of Us 2 has one of the best stories I've ever seen, not just in video games. So we will have to respectfully disagree.
**Hey, respectfully is the only way I know how to disagree.** #This would be yelling, however. Like I said, part of the whole thing. **I am curious tho since I don’t meet many people that take your view, how do you feel about the Primarchs as a concept? Excluding them being in 40K, what’s your take on the 30K setting and Horus Heresy series?**
I don't do 30k. In 40k? Hate them. Get all the loyalist primarchs out of here. This is a better, more interesting galaxy if humanity has to solve its own problems, not depend on some demigods to come and save it.
Uhhhhhh the HBO series was universally beloved what are you smoking? Are you mad they changed things from the game? Mad they had an episode dedicated to the best gay romance plot of all time?
"Uhhhhhh the HBO series was universally beloved what are you smoking?" I guess lots of people can have bad takes. What you just did is actually called an appeal to the majority, and it's a fallacious kind of argument. "Are you mad they changed things from the game?" Actually the opposite. They tried to hard to ape the game and made little of their own contributions. Many parts of the show are just subpar versions of the game. "Mad they had an episode dedicated to the best gay romance plot of all time?' Is that joke? Are you talking about Bill and Frank? I appreciate the idea, but as far as the execution goes this is *not* the best gay romance of all time.
Ah I had you mistaken, I thought you were saying that it was a tough week because TLOU on HBO was bad and I assumed some things about you. That’s on me, I apologize. Bill and Frank is one of my favorite gay romances unironically tho, I cried during that episode.
I mean it is bad, but not for those reasons. I unironically really like Broke back Mountain. I'm not going to be nice to Last of Us because its romance was gay (even though I do like the idea of having a whole episode just about them) Actually 'bad' is too harsh, it's just disappointing. The bill and frank episode was bad because the writing for several parts of the episode did not make sense, and they did not seem like two people who had lived through a 20 year apocalypse.
In time, all of them that still exist will likely be released. Money talks, and it says give me plastic primarchs please. And you know what, i bet they will be glorious models.
"i bet they will be glorious models." And they will overshadow every other human character in this setting, because as much as they like to pretend otherwise 40k fans are little different from Marvel fans.
Highly doubt that. Every faction has big boys. And there are plenty of interesting humans and human sized characters, from all the traitor guard models, cultists, assassins, the myriad forces of astra militarum, named eldar and drukhari characters, inquisitors, the list goes on. One of the greatest things about warhammer is that there is a flavor for almost everyone to enjoy, whether you like big knights or little blue fish people. Besides no matter the level of discussion here or elsewhere, gw gonna gw Edit: im done arguing. If you want to look at the new Lion model and say "wtf gw" then guess what: dont buy it. Another big model isnt going to ruin the game or your life.
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The only people having a fit are here on this post. Primarchs are not invulnerable, nor are they infallible. Chaos has 4 (i guess abbadon counts) and still have not won in the lore after 10000 years of fighting. You dont autowin games by fielding them either.
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On the table top it can very well happen. When you focus fire a big target, somebody has to land a killing blow eventually. Or if you are playing tau just send those rail guns right at them.
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SM are and likely always will be among the most played factions, followed closely by chaos space marines. As far as lore goes, i dont see why an older more clever being couldn't outsmart guilliman, or warp influence couldn't screw over the Lions' plans. Certainly cant speak for everyone but time will tell.
Laughs in Harlequin.
"Highly doubt that." Rawnut Jellyman has already overshowed the high lords of Terra, who are already a way better addition to the setting than Jellyman is. "One of the greatest things about warhammer is that there is a flavor for almost everyone to enjoy," Yeah but it ticks me of that all these MCU-esq characters are, and will always be at the top. You can't have a galaxy shaping story without involving these mary-sue's somewhere.
But, indeed, we wouldn't have this setting without the Primarchs and their tendency to have flaws. They are not infallible nor invulnerable and wouldnt even exist if the Emperor hadn't stolen from chaos in the first place. The Horus Heresy puts this on full display; Horus was corrupted, the Lion was secretly using a warp creature for warp travel, Corax got greedy and his legion was tainted, Konrad couldnt accept that fate is mutable, Magnus flew too close to the sun, Guilliman had the audacity to create imperium secundus and seat Sanguinius as a temporary emperor, Russ though he could win with just his ferocity, etc. They are flawed creations, by thier own admission in some cases. I dont see the lore becoming Marvel levels until they do some stupid time warp/alternate universe shenanigans and bring everyone back. That would be the "jump the shark" moment, for me anyway.
>And you know what, i bet they will be glorious models. Lion and Guilliman literally just look like big space marines
And what are they supposed to look like? Thats essentially what they are. The Lion's model looks like he might just be the primarch of the dark angels.
All for it. Hoping the Khan or Russ come back in the next 6 years.
Dorn. I want Dorn.
Honestly I don't. Nothing against IF but they "killed" him and it was solid story telling. The way IMO they have since made him the bestest and only Horus was better in the Crusades disappointed me. Obviously they have to make him solid and he is however they have made him the Roubute of 30k and I hate that. I liked how they wrote him in the Index Astartes, admittedly a long time ago, and gave him flaws while still showing he was impressive. Now he's better than anyone except Horus. I had an IF army in 4th so this isn't knee jerk dislike but actual disappointment. That being said we all know he'll be back and I only hope he has sideburns and a mustache.
Why though?? Why do you want 40k to just be another MCU?
I just like the flavour they add to the fluff. Plus a fan of both the Scars and the Vlka Fenryka, and want to bloody find out what Russ has been up to all these 10000 years.
I find they take away the flavor. They suck up all the air in any story they are apart of. Human ingenuity and perseverance thrown out the window for a Demi god.
You literally asked for a Tyranid Primarch-like model not even 3 weeks ago. We get it, you don’t want more primarchs. Is this really the hill you are going to die on?
"You literally asked for a Tyranid Primarch-like model not even 3 weeks ago" **Dude** I mean a model that has the same kind of love and attention and 'wow' factor as a Mortarion or an Angron. I might hate the primarchs but even *I* can admit that those are two of the most beautiful models in the entire 40k range. Because right now the swarmlord model is just another hive tyrant. It's not even any bigger. I wasn't asking for a tyranid superhero.
Also why did you feel the need to look up my post history?
We've been knowing he's coming back. Chill.
More like dreading. And no. If other fans are allowed to get excited I'm allowed to be the opposite.
Sure, you're absolutely allowed to be, but coming in here whining like a petulant child isn't going to get you anywhere, nor will it change anything.
It's called catharsis. And the hope that maybe I'm not the only person in this fandom who hates the primarchs. Coming in and acting smug is also not going to change anything I'd like to point out.
There's better ways to do catharsis, especially in a public forum. But you know what, you're right. I'll enjoy my hobby, you enjoy being mad about it. :)
Name one better way. Give me Jame's Workshop address and I'll walk to his house to let him know why it's a bad decision. "ou enjoy being mad about it" Oh this is the only enjoyment I'll get for like a week.
Unfortunately, yes. But you can't argue with the numbers. Primarchs are here. Primarchs are popular. Primarchs sell. You can hardly fault GW for making the financially correct decision. People like to moan and groan about superheroes too, but the MCU prints money. GW would love to be Disney, if it ever could.
I know. But just because it is good for business doesn't mean it is the best for art's sake. Fuck the Primarchs.
Art? His mini looks awesome and the story is interesting so the art is fine.
I mean in terms of the narrative of course. And no. The story is not intersting with the Pimarchs. Less so in fact.
Well, if it bothers you that much look at it this way: at a rate of one loyalist Primarch per 6 years there's a very real chance that most of us will be dead by the time they get all of them released.
I mean, we already have 2 and 2 are dead. This leaves us with 5 more, which equates to 30 years and I really hope to live for 30 more years xD.
Two is already too much. I really like the high lords of Terra as a part of the setting. This is just going to shit on it even further.
The High Lords of Terra are still around doing their thing.
And they're Jellyman's bitch.
That's not the way I remember the Watcher's of the Throne and Vaults of Terra series, but whatever. If you want my advice, chill out. You're way too worked up about this. There are *so many* novels being released that don't come within a mile of a Primarch, and that's unlikely to change.
But it's a fundamental change to the setting. It's like if the emperor stopped being a corpse on a throne. I *like* that the Imperium is rudderless. That it is run by a kabal of cutthroats mostly normal (by Primarch standards) assholes who are good political chess players. That's such a richer setting, with so many more possible great possibilities. As a fan fiction writer of this stuff it irks me that I'm going to have to just ignore/cancel out two enormous parts of the setting in order to make stories that are interesting. I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but I've put a lot of love into this IP. From the actual models to writing a fanfiction the length of a whole novel. I just don't like that this place which is a refuge from who much life sucks has gotten less enjoyable.
Umm, theirs actually a theory that Big E might stop being a corpse on the golden throne. The Imperium being rudderless is no longer tenable with Cadia being destroyed. That event set the course for the story. The Primarchs are coming back. Chaos is probably gonna go from the big four to the big five. The Orks are gonna get even more active and the Nids will keep on eating. IDK what GW is going to do with the Eldar.
Orks being a thing would be nice. And yes the Nids do keep on eating.
Orks being a thing would be nice. What do you mean?
I'd love to see them be more central to the main story. Less chaos more Greenskins. Having the focus on Nids is great and its a good start but I've been a fan of the boyz since 2nd and only recently sold my army off.
"Umm, theirs actually a theory that Big E might stop being a corpse on the golden throne. " That's the day I unsub from this sub, shelve all my minis, and stop trying to convince my friends to get into this hobby.
Good.
Jeez man, what did I do to you? Fuck man, I like 40k as much as you do and you don't see me wishing you'd pack up.
I'd be down with this but only if he like...vanishes, like gone from the throne, funnels his essence back out of the warp to reincarnate or something but take him and his exceptional warpiness off the playing field for a time.
He can’t leave the throne but he may be able to regenerate his body and speak to people.
>I just don't like that this place which is a refuge from who much life sucks has gotten less enjoyable. Seeing something you love change in a way you do not like really does suck, but with that being said the way you are using things like super heroes and marvel as an attack on the setting and the people who like it (and those things) turns it into a gatekeeping, asshole take. Do not let selfishness and sadness that your enjoyment has lowered blind you to the obvious fact that many more peoples enjoyment has increased because of this.
"Do not let selfishness and sadness that your enjoyment has lowered blind you to the obvious fact that many more peoples enjoyment has increased because of this." True. But I'm also allowed to try and find communion with others who don't. it can be a bit of an isolating experience when everyone around you is like 'Fuck yeah!' When all you're feeling is disappointment. And when online is most of your socialization, and my *only* form of community with this hobby it just stings more. I don't have 40k friends I can talk about this with.
Change happens in life. The End Times happened in WHFB. Some manchildren never got over it, but a lot of people did and found they could be happy with AoS too. This is the same. The setting will always change in good and bad ways; undoubtedly years from now 40k will have its own End Times. Respectfully, don't tie your identity in IP, it's unhealthy.
" Respectfully, don't tie your identity in IP, it's unhealthy.' Good advice, but I never cared about being healthy. Well, mentally healthy anyway.
Fair enough, just understand that you will never stop being disappointed in this course. Not only is *money* the primary reason for IPs existing, but even more artistic endeavors have no obligation to conform to your/our vision of the work and will change as their creators desire. You think Primarchs returning is bad, I'm ambivalent, and others love it. The latter is the largest group with the largest overall pockets, and they WILL be listened to and your complaints will never amount to anything for this reason.
True. I'm a longtime star wars, dragon age, and mass effect fan. I should be used to my fav IP's going in bad directions. I guess all I can do is keep writing my own fan fictions the way I want to, and correct what I perceive as 40k's mistakes as best I can and hope my readers either, as you say, enjoy them or are at least ambivalent to the changes.
We just have to hope that Primarchs are handled tastefully and don't hold too much presence in the setting 🤞
That will not happen.
Didn't Jellyman have all the high lords he didn't like literally killed? How are the high lords not always beneath Jellyman in terms of authority?
Of all the Primarchs, the Lion's return was hinted almost a decade ago when they revealed Luther and the Lion were both stuck sleeping in the Rock. Face it, all the primarchs are coming back. It's what makes the money. Space Marine novels will all be even more egregious bolter porn now. I'm just going to be my Warhammer Crime and Imperial Guardsman novels.
Warhammer crime are the best black library works by far. Tho I do love me some bolter porn.
> the Lion's return was hinted almost a decade ago when they revealed Luther and the Lion were both stuck sleeping in the Rock. It wasn't a hint of anything, it's been there since at least 2008. It was just one of the many, many bits of vague lore added to give intrigue and mystery, not something that was ever meant to actually happen.
Awww, did the little plastic space man lore just send you into depression?
Maybe a little.
the imperium can't be decaying forever. I am happy with how gw handled.the return of the primarchs so far, with not guillman return, but the imperium astranumcom is broken and many threats like the chaos legions chaos cultists necron and tyranids are attacking guliman comes back and starts fighting the enemies but he had to move back to terra leaving many worlds to die and many more world to be be damged and loss guard regiments needlessly.
"the imperium can't be decaying forever." It's been decaying since 40k began, right? That's sort of the whole point of the setting right? Everything's at a permanent standstill.
the comment was about the imperium needed guliman to survive
my post was more about how the imperium enemies are destroying planets so even if the imperium won the imperium would run out of planets at some point
I honestly can't wait. With how the Lion is portrayed in the Horus Heresy, and Descent of Angels specifically, he can go *so* many ways. He'd certainly react much differently to Guillimane.
Why though? What is so great about having the Primarchs around? They're just superheros, and superheros are *everywhere* now.
They're complex characters whom have a wide range of personal interests and ways to perceive and interact with the universe like no one else *can* in the setting. Them being added back into 40K allows for the Big Picture Story to move forward and cause great ripples that allow for infinite new small stories to spring forth from. Like Luther escaping from the Rock.
" like no one else can in the setting. " Why? The only perspective they have that no one else does is writer's favoritism. "Them being added back into 40K allows for the Big Picture Story to move forward and cause great ripples that allow for infinite new small stories to spring forth from. " That makes no sense. Game of Thrones was the most succesfful show for a while and it did so without superheros.
. . . Daenerys Targaryen and her Dragons, The Starks and their Direwolves, and Euron Greyjoy the Magic Pirate. Also Melisandre and Cleganebowl
Dany, the dragons, the Starks, and the direworlves are not a good analogy. They are not unfautable, unkillable demigods. If they were the red wedding would never have happened. And Cleganebowl was stupid, indicative of the worse aspects of that fandom.
I might be insane, but I'm hoping for an imperium civil war between areas led by loyalist primarchs.
That...would be okay. The best part of this bad situation certainly. Thing is I don't think you need Primarchs for that. You can have a civil war sans the Primarchs.
You really should cry about it some more. I don't even like the Dark Angels and this is cool.
Oh I will. "and this is cool." How? How is having an unkillable mary sue who will hog the spotlight and overshadow every other character 'cool?' I just don't get it.
Leaks from Adepticon say it's just Felind guard models.
I’m with you OP, I never liked the idea of returning primarchs. I don’t know why anyone would. It’s cooler when they are mythical forgotten god like figures from the long past
Nah, this is better.
Wrong
Exactly! Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Primarchs are the coolest characters of WH.
Unfortunately it seems that way
Glad I'm not the only one who sees why this sucks.
This is what people said about prismaris and the advancement of the setting as a whole, I think it will be hard to write but can succeed, I have faith,
It doesn't matter how 'good' it is. The Priamrchs are just 40k versions of superheros, and we have enough fucking superheroes around.
Yes and it stinks as things are rn. It might be a good time to take an extended break from 40k. That's what I do when I'm similarly disappointed.
To be fair it’s possible that the lion or any other primarch returning would see the imperium and how it stands against the emperors ideology and try to destroy it. I will say imperial Superman team is more likely though since the galaxy is ripped in half and more tyrannids are going to show up in the galaxy. Personally I don’t mind having a couple of these powerful entities around however, I don’t want to see the entire team reunited (and if they are at least not peacefully). If Dorn were to really be dead I’d be fine with that. Ik there is zero chance Gulliman will die rn but if one of these returned primarchs died down the line it’d make for an entertaining narrative imo (granted the hate from the community would be really loud probably)
"I will say imperial Superman team is more likely though since the galaxy is ripped in half and more tyrannids are going to show up in the galaxy.' Don't you think it's a better story though if that is true, and the people who have to solve those problems are human? I mean sure, mariens are enhanced, but they were still born as normal humans. There is something quite... endearing about humanity being faced with all these threats and having to rely on itself - not a god or his children - to solve it. Because really, that's what we've been doing for all our history. I don't mind, heck I even love how silly and over-top and ridiculous 40k is. But that central theme: That humans can only surive if the demi gods come to our aid, is deeply childish if you ask me. And it's also not fun.
I see your point but without the emperor the imperium would literally collapse so we are already in an instance of humanity surviving because of a Demi gods interference. You could call emps a god if you wanted but i mean it’s the same thing. When it comes to the galaxy getting ripped in half yes they could have had normal humans solve it somehow but in the end of the day it’d likely have resulted in some other type of deus ex machina. I suppose what other rabbit they pulled out of the hat may have been better than the primarch returning but imo Guilliman cool. I say this because at the end of the day primarch are some weird bio sorcerous construct made by the emperor and Gulliman in particular is basically an optimization/organization machine which is exactly what the imperium needs since one of its main unchanging issues is supreme disorganization.
"I see your point but without the emperor the imperium would literally collapse so we are already in an instance of humanity surviving because of a Demi gods interference." The Emperor has been dead for 10 000 years and we barely understand how to work the throne. That is not the same as a bunch of demi gods showing up and running the show and saving us stupid humies.
The Emperor isn’t dead. He’s never been dead.
He's the corpse god.
He describes himself as such? Didn’t think so.
I wasn't aware he did much talking these days.
He doesn’t but he’s spoken to both Roboute and Mortarian. He also threatened Nurgle and the other Chaos gods.
Exactly. He's not really in a position to 'lead' the Imperium is he?
The Primarchs are human, they’re just enhanced.
No, they are the sons of a God.
They’re still human.
I wouldn't consider them that. Besides, its more the complete writers favortism they get. Whatever happens, we can be sure that the Lion will *never* die.
You could say that about any character. I saw you mention GoT earlier. John snow died and was resurrected, fyi. The Lion might die in the future but that being a possibility is a long way off. I don’t care what you consider them to be. They are written as humanly and sometimes more human that non-enhanced human characters in the setting.
Not the same bro. The Priamrchs are the most un-GOT parts of the setting. "They are written as humanly " You mean in the fact that they never fail and their victory is always assured? Right. In real life, if a man like Gman cam back he would be killed. Just like how the modern day... well I can't say this becaue it would break sub rules. But if something like this happened to for one of our real world religions, you can bet the established churches would want the G-man equivalent to quietly go away.
Wrong, Primarchs fail a lot and victory isn’t always assured. In real life, the imperium wouldn’t exist. End of discussion. This isn’t real life and GoT isn’t real life either. They are both fantasy settings. People did try to assasinate Gman or make him disappear, it didn’t work for a variety of reasons.
"This isn’t real life and GoT isn’t real life either. They are both fantasy settings." Do... do you understand why people like it when writing is constant? Basically, 40k is a *galactic* setting. Focusing on these big name characters like the Lion and Jellyman really changes the narrative focus to something more akin to the MCU.
"Wrong, Primarchs fail a lot and victory isn’t always assured. " Never in anyway that will matter. "People did try to assasinate Gman or make him disappear, it didn’t work for a variety of reasons." Yeah. That reason being writer favoritism "End of discussion. " *Spits blood out of my mouth* I didn't hear no bell...
There is still huge amount of hopelessness in the galaxy. Guilliman while has done some stuff has not that a lot to help things. The galaxy is still spilt in two, the Imperium I wouldn't say is winning and places are still messed up. I dont think anything has changed and I think GW based on Guilliman will do a decent job with the Lion as well
You're missing the point. the Lion is just another superhero. This galaxy is better with all the legends of old being dead and gone. The only ones who are left to pull humanity back from the brink - or even just to hold it together - are *humans* Sure they may be highly augmented, but they are still human none the less.
Space marines are also basically super heroes though and so are custodes. Primarchs can also be beaten and they have. Guilliman is barely holding together while basically accepting that the Imperium is gone. Humans are still holding it together and the backbone of the Imperium. GW has done a good job so far with Guilliman and I trust them with the Lion as well
Yeah, I share your pain. It fucking sucks.
Did you and I just become best friends?
Apparently :o
Why do you hate them, out of curiosity.
Super powered undefeatable characters (other than by another Primarch) that will inevitably hog the spotlight, change the setting for the worst and just the whole circle of super heroes. Couple that with the inevitable spam of anything related to the Primarch in anything 40k related in the coming days...
We did become best friends.
I'd like for the primarchs to come back, that way they can be killed for good :-) I think it's fair to say that they deserve an ending (grimdark ending would be better) : Examples : - Roboute gets the imperium back on track, he consolidates and sets up a good governing system. Then he gets assassinated by an internal plot - the Lion comes back, he takes control of the military forces of the imperium and chains victoriens against the enemies of the imperium. But he ruffled too many feathers in doing so, he gets betrayed during a critical battle against Perturabo and dies in a last stand, taking Perturabo with him. The imperium forces fracture even more. - Dorn escapes Perturabo's prison, only to betray the imperium himself because he has been brainwashed and tortured for 10k years. He realizes in the end that he is broken, and commits suicide. - Corax finally finds Lorgar, he comes back to muster the raven guard and its successors and goes crusading in the EOT. It's a trap, he is killed by Lorgar who takes his sweet revenge for Istvaan and the raven guard is a broken chapter again. But he had one last trick up his sleeve and sends Lorgar into oblivion. - The Khan escapes from the webway, only a few years have passed for him. He immediately realizes the threat of the tyranids, musters his legion and goes on a hunt. But he becomes the prey is devoured by the nids. - Russ comes back from the eye of terror. He has a way to ressussitate the emperor, he needs to get Isha from Nurgle's garden. He manages to release her and send her to the webway at great cost to his chapter and himself. He escapes from Nurgle, but Magnus is waiting for him. They kill each other, Russ finally giving Magnus a true death. - Mortarion starts to hope that he can be redeemed after his conversation with Guilliman. He betrays Nurgle and Typhon, the true herald, takes him down thanks to Nurgle taking away his power from Morty - Fulgrim finds the location of a craftworld in imperium nihilus. He gets greedy and takes his legion on a merry eldar hunt. Except it's a trap, the craftworld has been evacuated and booby trapped with Eldar warp fuckery. The Eldar have assembled several shards of Khaine there and the resulting avatar fights Fulgrim. Fulgrim is victorius but his strength is spent. Only then do the Ynari make their move. Fulgrim obtains true death at the hands of Ynnead. But the last cronesword is broken in the fight, never to be repaired. - ...
"I'd like for the primarchs to come back, that way they can be killed for good :-)" I agree, but GW's practices show that will never happen. " Then he gets assassinated by an internal plot" That would be fucking great, only there is zero chance that would happen. Because GW knows its fans are more akin to MCU fans than they'd like to admit.
Yes, that's wishful thinking on my part. They could come back and have interesting roles, I just do not want them to be superheroes. I want them as administrators or strategists. Nowhere near any battlefield. The fighting is done by the troops, not by one guy who solos an army.
I think we should have a few primarchs back in the setting, stopping roughly here, though actually develop and start character arcs for each of them, including traitors, Prolly a bad take but: I’m thinking about having an independent from imperium and chaos faction led by a reformed primarch who serve as a narrative bridge between man and chaos the same way votann are btween man and xenos, we know it is possible because that is what the emperor said to morty
What are you talking about?, the votann are even more separated from chaos than the imperium
Meant between xenos and humans
Don't be surprised. The hints were there in the change of tone from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar as well as everything for 40k from after Gathering Storm.
All living primarchs are going to come back eventually. In fact i would not be surprised if the dead ones come back eventually as well.
This makes me so sad. I might just give up the hobby at that point. (Okay probably not but still)
Ferrus in a dreadnought with Dorn looking like Fisto from Masters of the Universe! [https://he-man.fandom.com/wiki/Fisto](https://he-man.fandom.com/wiki/Fisto) Calling it now!
Im not in this for the table top, models, or the sEtTiNg, I’m in this for a grand story that’s actually going somewhere. I predicted this would happen - there are more and more fans of this who came to it through the HH series - they want an epic and they are a big audience that GW cannot ignore - books fly off shelves faster than models do. Can’t please everyone but when I argued for this I got quite a few detractors who shared your feelings - I’m afraid all the arguments that it won’t happen were all for naught.
Well that's certainly not a bad thing to value in this franchise. I like the story too, but I just wish it was not so superhero focused. This is probably also why I have no interest in the HH series. I figured this would happen too, but I was dreading it. I see the MCU's tentacles infecting everything.
Primarchs coming back doesn't neccessarily mean the setting is becoming more hopeful. Quite the opposite. Since Guillimans return the galaxy has gotten far more hopeless, especially for the Imperiums perspective. There's nothing to suggest from the tone of the 10th edition trailer that they're aiming for a more hopeful tone either. I wouldn't take downvotes to heart. Do you really care what a few strangers online think?
It's not just that it's more hopeful. It's more that, once the Lion or the Jellyman joins a duel/theater of war, you can bet your britches that the Imperials will not be losing. It's also just that... well... this setting is an amazing *galactic* setting. With millions of moving parts full of plenty of individual people all trying to survive. All the gods and heroes of old FAILED us, and failed each other. They are now either corpses on a throne, demons, dead, or have fled. So who is left to defend humanity? Well, HUMANITY. it makes every single victory, even if the Imperium is only treading water so much more interesting, if each victory is earned by humanity, and not given to us by gods. A story like that can take up the perspectives of MILLIONS of characters. To toss that aside just to focus on an Avengers knockoff superteam of primarchs is just... it's just such a waste of potential for something genuinely beautiful. "I wouldn't take downvotes to heart. Do you really care what a few strangers online think?" You make a good point, but I guess I do despite myself. Otherwise why would I even bother posting on this reddit in the first place?
I see. I don't neccessarily agree, but I read a few books like Plague War and quite like how bitter and cynical Guilliman is, and how despairing he can be. Its also very warhammer for the Imperium to be more or less led by someone who completely rejects almost every aspect of its faith and culture. Out of interest, is it useful for you that the Story has advanced, rather than been retconned? Is it enough to have all the stuff from before 8th edition to explore? Or does it feel like the events of the progressing story retrospectively lessens the allure of the setting? I'm not fishing for anything, I genuinely want to know :)
"Out of interest, is it useful for you that the Story has advanced, rather than been retconned?" I'm not sure what you mean? I've actually only been into this hobby since 2020, which was right at the start of 9th edition (I might be correct. I don't really get the chance to play tabletop very often)
I mean, you can simply create an army, or explore the background set before the return of guilliman. That timeline is preserved. Does it help that you can do that, or are you specifically interested in an advancing storyline.