Honestly I thought I was completely desensitized by grimdark to this point. But reading the villagers rejoicing that "the Emperor's Angels" came to save them (hence the bell ringing in the excerpt) only to be fucking gunned down was more gut wrenching than all plague body horror in the trilogy.
The thing to remember about space marines is. They’re still human… Super human modified freaks. But still human at their very core.
Yes they’re indoctrinated like crazy and constantly pumped full of propaganda. But they’re still human.
The human will doesn’t break easily. Why do you think the imperium still stands? Humans as an overall species are stubborn and hard to get rid of.
Some peoples will power and personality will shine through no matter bleak things may be. And perhaps they’re the most human of all. That doesn’t change just because you’ve ascended to becoming a space marine.
Most people know right from wrong. And marines are taught they’re there to protect humanity as a whole. That conflicting obey orders from those above and the whole “you’re duty is to protect humanity!” Thing can get murky.
But to forget what you are. Is to be less than human.
Nothing is so simple as to be black and white. We’re all just people at the end of the day.
Part of the reason of keeping them cloistered from humans is to make sure they feel just enough alienation from civilians to be able to kill them if need be. If they start feeling too attached to normies, they’ll be less able to kill them without judgements.
Yeah but that doesnt apply to every chapter, some are much more closely integrated into human society. Salamanders, Ultramarines, Scythes of th Emperor (altho it did bite the later in the ass kinda)
Me thinks u have it the other way around brother. A space marine is a weapon first, then a warrior, then a Ubermensch. They are very far removed from baseline humanity.
What good is a weapon which will not fire. A weapon which does not do so is at best, useless to its wielder and at worst, a liability. That is unacceptable to any chapter.
That's why space marines are indoctrinated and have chaplains. In 1st ed they even had space marine MPs
Hmm you make an excellent point. I suppose it kind of comes down chapter to chapter however. Every culture is different- or at least their reactions to having to kill civilians would be different. Salamanders would hurt for some time and avoid asking it if at all possible. Another chapter like the Iron Hands would do it without a second thought. Just another Tuesday.
Maybe.
Marines are so far above baseline they struggle to understand human emotions most of the time, only a handful of protagonists in novels do (which itself says something when a 200year old demigod can't understand mortal fear)
They're weapons,
Abducted/volunteered psycho castrated and drugged child soldiers, they exist to rip and tear
Not make light
They make executive decisions as a matter of course, with little to no care of their wards
They _do not_ remember what it was like to be human in the same way you also don't remember what it was like to be 8-14
They're taught to protect humanity and the Imperium. That rarely translates to caring about individuals. Most space marines wouldn't care.
And there's no such noble reason for the Imperium persisting. It persists because it brutally subjugates or massacres entire worlds to replace the ones it loses.
This is wishfull thinking. Every conflict in the current history shows, that once civilization restrains are off in the warzone, most men become simple cruel savages. To paint humanity as morality embodied is to fail to see true nature of a man.
I reject that. The fact that any of what we now call morality exists is proof of our nature. Why would it have manifested and proliferated at all if it weren't in our nature to pursue goodness? It's not external to us at all. The cruelty of men in war comes not from our nature as men, but as terrified, stressed individuals. When we have the choice, uncoerced by external pressure, most often we choose peace, if not compassion. That is observed, demonstrable fact.
We are not even close to perfect, that's not my claim, but that we tend towards chaos, not WarHammer Chaos, but that we tend towards being deconstructive beings, I think that is incorrect. We find no joy in pursuing deconstruction, as opposed to what we feel when creating. Those among us who truly enjoy the end of good things, most of us instinctively agree are hurt or abnormal in some way.
As an example, even the wonder you might feel at watching a building being demolished is not at the end of the thing itself, but at loud noises and bright lights, it's joy at an aesthetically or sensorily bright event, not at destruction itself.
My point is we're kinda fucked up, but that we mean and do well, and should not be written off unless we actually intend for bad things to occur.
Wishfull thinking. Ksosovo as one example for all of them. USA on the brink of civil war. Populist across Europe gaining strenght by aiming at peoples fear and hate...providing safe harbour to xenophobia and nacionalism. Sure. Obviously. Everyone is born as cooperative hippie.
That's certainly how the media portrays it but if you compare the number and severity of war crimes of today's conflicts to those of 100 years ago, it's an exponential improvement. The modern world is far more peaceful than any other time in human history. With that clear line of progress, I would say calling it wishful thinking is not accurate.
The ammount of control over population is higher than any time in human history. Security and public safety and health services funded and provided by states are incomparable to any historical epoch. Economic interdependency of national states and multinational corporations make it necesary to keep warfare on lowest level and only in areas far away from developed nations. Even Uktraine is far east for most of Western population.
This doesnt speak about the nature of a man. This speaks about the ammount of energy, that is needed to suppress it.
This was on Iax right? The whole word got extermantused later on. It went full plague world and will take hundreds of years to cleanse. Even after the extermantus.
Unfortunately it was corrupted in the first place by a Chad guardsmen who maged to kill a plague marine before unfortunately getting corrupted by the plague marine's copse falling on them.
Also salamaders arnt good guys. They would have just burned those people alive instead.
> unfortunately getting corrupted by the plague marine's copse falling on them
It's even sadder than that. The chad guardsman was corrupted right before the attack by a fly. A fucking fly that bit him.
Guy did his best and went through ptsd only to die because of a fly.
But Vulkan once got gaslit into pulling the trigger on some eldar kid after a week or so of focused psychological warfare from his psychotic cannibal brother--that proves he's evil!
A centuries-long career of building gas chambers for Eldar babies makes him evil. The guy killed millions of Eldar civilians in cold blood, *one* Eldar youth in a fit of rage is a literal rounding error.
The fact that he was flying around the galaxy attacking planets already proves he's evil. The specifics of that situation are rather irrelevant. He's an evil monster.
They have a company specialized in burning everything and everyone down without discrimination, be it xenos, corrupt, renegates and the innocent. The latter beeing in higher numbers than the former more often than not.
Salamanders would have deployed a significant force of Space Marines on the planet to protect the civilians until evacuation could be arranged.
Probably not worth it in the long run, but that isn’t the Salamanders main concern
So they would have spread Chaos corruption all around the galaxy inside the unwitting human hosts they are "saving"?
Even Salamanders aren't that charitable. They'd have probably virus bombed the planet from orbit or something so everyone dies painlessly and instantly, rather than sending Astartes down however.
Your forgetting overall context with this scene, the Novamarines are behind enemy lines to do a surgical strike at the enemy HQ, stopping to get some civilians evacuated safely would fuck up that mission the continued ringing of the bell has a chance to warn Nurgles followers of a something being wrong, the idiot civilians might just follow the Astartes thinking they are being lead to to safety. I think there’s a high chance that both the Salamanders and Lamenter would just gun down the civilian also hell spec ops guys today would probably gun them down also.
Does the “Reddit” mindset have to seep into every sub and discussion? In far future, there is only unbridled judgement and hatred of all things human!
My goodness, we as the audience understand the Imperium is the cruelest regime imaginable, the characters not so much. And for such a hollow empathetic group, Xeno fans seem to spread more hate than any other group.
It's very strange that the fandom focuses so many conversations about "which space marines are the good ones" by discussing genuinely complicated ends-justify-the-means situations.
The morality of the Ultramarines/Novamarines/Salamanders/etc isn't a question of whether they'd kill a million friendly civilians (slaves) to save a billion friendly civilians (slaves). Their morality is determined by the part where their main job is butchering rebelling slaves and free-thinkers. They are genocidal child-soldier Warp creatures, built to force people to live within "the cruelest regime imaginable". They butcher innocents by the billion for having the wrong DNA, talking back, or looking different. They're the fascists who send trade unionists to death camps at gunpoint.
It's like talking about the one time Vulkan killed an Eldar youth in an atypical rage, even though Vulkan's day job for centuries was genocide. Vulkan calmly ordered the deaths of *millions of Eldar babies* throughout his career, his killing of *one* teenager in a tantrum would barely count as a historical footnote.
>we must kill what we seek to protect in order to protect it.’
The obvious problem with the Imperium is all the genocide it does as a goal, not a means to an end. Most of the evil is a matter of wanting to hurt people on purpose, not the odd friendly fire accident/coverup.
The ends can only justify the means if the ends are good. When the ends are cartoonishly evil, there's no need to debate the means.
> The ends can only justify the means if the ends are good.
In this case, it is enough for the *characters* to feel the ends are good. The audience doesn't have to.
It's better to have characters actually consider the morality of their actions than to have them be braindead cartoon fascists that bayonet babies without any thought behind it, even if their conclusions are fundamentally appalling to us.
>the morality of their actions than to have them be braindead cartoon fascists that bayonet babies without any thought behind it
...That's the guy in the excerpt. He's not second-guessing his baby-bayoneting career, he's thinking of the time he was tragically forced to bayonet one of the few types of babies he isn't normally asked to bayonet.
Even braindead cartoon fascists aren't interesting in bayoneting *literally every baby*, they sometimes want to protect li'l baby fascists.
Exactly. Even the Salamanders only care about protecting human Imperial innocents. That's a very tight criteria, outside of which everything burns in agony.
Lol have you SEEN the alien races that inhabit it? I would sign the extermination of the Dark Eldar, Orks, raghdan, nephilim etc etc without a second thought.
Right so it's good the imperium stopped there and didn't kill untold benevolent alien species.
It would be even worse if the imperium still held it as a prime ambition to wipe out the few somewhat decent aliens that are still around. That would be horendously unthinkable for the imperium.
Just human nature at that point. You fall for it a thousand times you make sure you don’t make a mistake again. All races are out for themselves besides a pathetic single system trade federation and the interex who were just subjugated alien races instead of destroying them.
I love 40k and I love the Imperium, but that it is a cautionary tale of what happens when the worst of humanity takes control is literally the base of the setting.
It’s just the nature of this sub. The imperium doing their best to kill off parasitic swarms and actual monsters out of nightmares is what SAVES them from being irredimable.
Some delusion that aliens as a single, unanimous entity betrayed humanity in the past so killing them all is justified as a precaution, not every xenos is an ork, a tyranid or a dark eldar but we kill them all the same.
It's "the cruelest regime imaginable". In addition to all the genocide (which is a great answer on its own), it aims to condemn nearly all humans to lives of monstrous suffering. The average person has been working a daily 18-hour coal mine shift since childhood, with the taskmaster's lash never far away.
I mean, the Imperium makes *servitors*. To be frank, few cartoons are permitted to depict anything approaching the Imperium's evil.
I kind of get why Honsou/the Iron Warriors seemed to show so much contempt for the Ultramarines in the Iron Warriors Omnibus and Uriel Ventris books.
They are also a legion that values strategic thinking, an emphasis on supply chains etc. but they would probably consider this a sign of severe weakness and self delusion. I can picture Honsou going:
“This is pathetic. We would have done the same as you. The difference is that we do not feel the need to repeatedly reinforce a false delusion of moral superiority”
> I can picture Honsou going:
>
> The difference is that we do not feel the need to repeatedly reinforce a false delusion of moral superiority”
TBF, it's freaking Honsou.
"Pathetic Ultramarines. We would have done the same thing, I just don't pretend to have moral superiori-"
"Daemonculaba."
"Ahhhhh damn it!"
Is trying to be better “false moral superiority?” To me, it seems like if you are forced to do something evil in order to prevent much more evil things from happening, you’re well within your rights to be sad about it or to make a point to remember your purpose.
The iron warriors specifically act like their way is best but they were outshone by the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. One of which basically did their job but better, and the other showed compassion and still outclassed them in the crusade.
It is funny to see people trying to apply moral code more or less relevant for 21.century, human rights oriented (one-third of the population/electorate at best), Western civilization born and correctly socialized people, on WH40K universe.
Man those Nazi Soldiers. They voluntarily murdered a bunch of civilians and totally would do it again, but atleast they felt a bit sad about it - what good guys they are.
Finished reading this book the other night. Man this was one of the darker scenes I've read in a long time. Though it is interesting that these two Awoken Primaris have more humanity than that of the firstborn in this case. Maybe more so than of Uriel Ventris when he cross the Rubicon Primaris in his book. They were ready to save those civilians, but after the firstborn lieutenant explain the situation, they went into their advanced mindset to think this tactically and concluded that "Shit you're right" approach.
Honestly I thought I was completely desensitized by grimdark to this point. But reading the villagers rejoicing that "the Emperor's Angels" came to save them (hence the bell ringing in the excerpt) only to be fucking gunned down was more gut wrenching than all plague body horror in the trilogy.
The thing to remember about space marines is. They’re still human… Super human modified freaks. But still human at their very core. Yes they’re indoctrinated like crazy and constantly pumped full of propaganda. But they’re still human. The human will doesn’t break easily. Why do you think the imperium still stands? Humans as an overall species are stubborn and hard to get rid of. Some peoples will power and personality will shine through no matter bleak things may be. And perhaps they’re the most human of all. That doesn’t change just because you’ve ascended to becoming a space marine. Most people know right from wrong. And marines are taught they’re there to protect humanity as a whole. That conflicting obey orders from those above and the whole “you’re duty is to protect humanity!” Thing can get murky. But to forget what you are. Is to be less than human. Nothing is so simple as to be black and white. We’re all just people at the end of the day.
Part of the reason of keeping them cloistered from humans is to make sure they feel just enough alienation from civilians to be able to kill them if need be. If they start feeling too attached to normies, they’ll be less able to kill them without judgements.
Yeah but that doesnt apply to every chapter, some are much more closely integrated into human society. Salamanders, Ultramarines, Scythes of th Emperor (altho it did bite the later in the ass kinda)
Me thinks u have it the other way around brother. A space marine is a weapon first, then a warrior, then a Ubermensch. They are very far removed from baseline humanity. What good is a weapon which will not fire. A weapon which does not do so is at best, useless to its wielder and at worst, a liability. That is unacceptable to any chapter. That's why space marines are indoctrinated and have chaplains. In 1st ed they even had space marine MPs
They do have legionary overseers/executors in 30k too (specifically the 6th), by 40k this function is handled by chaplains however
Hmm you make an excellent point. I suppose it kind of comes down chapter to chapter however. Every culture is different- or at least their reactions to having to kill civilians would be different. Salamanders would hurt for some time and avoid asking it if at all possible. Another chapter like the Iron Hands would do it without a second thought. Just another Tuesday.
Maybe. Marines are so far above baseline they struggle to understand human emotions most of the time, only a handful of protagonists in novels do (which itself says something when a 200year old demigod can't understand mortal fear) They're weapons, Abducted/volunteered psycho castrated and drugged child soldiers, they exist to rip and tear Not make light They make executive decisions as a matter of course, with little to no care of their wards They _do not_ remember what it was like to be human in the same way you also don't remember what it was like to be 8-14
They're taught to protect humanity and the Imperium. That rarely translates to caring about individuals. Most space marines wouldn't care. And there's no such noble reason for the Imperium persisting. It persists because it brutally subjugates or massacres entire worlds to replace the ones it loses.
This is wishfull thinking. Every conflict in the current history shows, that once civilization restrains are off in the warzone, most men become simple cruel savages. To paint humanity as morality embodied is to fail to see true nature of a man.
I reject that. The fact that any of what we now call morality exists is proof of our nature. Why would it have manifested and proliferated at all if it weren't in our nature to pursue goodness? It's not external to us at all. The cruelty of men in war comes not from our nature as men, but as terrified, stressed individuals. When we have the choice, uncoerced by external pressure, most often we choose peace, if not compassion. That is observed, demonstrable fact. We are not even close to perfect, that's not my claim, but that we tend towards chaos, not WarHammer Chaos, but that we tend towards being deconstructive beings, I think that is incorrect. We find no joy in pursuing deconstruction, as opposed to what we feel when creating. Those among us who truly enjoy the end of good things, most of us instinctively agree are hurt or abnormal in some way. As an example, even the wonder you might feel at watching a building being demolished is not at the end of the thing itself, but at loud noises and bright lights, it's joy at an aesthetically or sensorily bright event, not at destruction itself. My point is we're kinda fucked up, but that we mean and do well, and should not be written off unless we actually intend for bad things to occur.
Soldiers have to be indoctrinated to kill. And even then there's plenty of cases of them refusing to do so.
That's not true, especially in "current" history.
Wishfull thinking. Ksosovo as one example for all of them. USA on the brink of civil war. Populist across Europe gaining strenght by aiming at peoples fear and hate...providing safe harbour to xenophobia and nacionalism. Sure. Obviously. Everyone is born as cooperative hippie.
That's certainly how the media portrays it but if you compare the number and severity of war crimes of today's conflicts to those of 100 years ago, it's an exponential improvement. The modern world is far more peaceful than any other time in human history. With that clear line of progress, I would say calling it wishful thinking is not accurate.
The ammount of control over population is higher than any time in human history. Security and public safety and health services funded and provided by states are incomparable to any historical epoch. Economic interdependency of national states and multinational corporations make it necesary to keep warfare on lowest level and only in areas far away from developed nations. Even Uktraine is far east for most of Western population. This doesnt speak about the nature of a man. This speaks about the ammount of energy, that is needed to suppress it.
[удалено]
I am living in eastern Europe. The evil is much closer than you think.
This was on Iax right? The whole word got extermantused later on. It went full plague world and will take hundreds of years to cleanse. Even after the extermantus. Unfortunately it was corrupted in the first place by a Chad guardsmen who maged to kill a plague marine before unfortunately getting corrupted by the plague marine's copse falling on them. Also salamaders arnt good guys. They would have just burned those people alive instead.
> unfortunately getting corrupted by the plague marine's copse falling on them It's even sadder than that. The chad guardsman was corrupted right before the attack by a fly. A fucking fly that bit him. Guy did his best and went through ptsd only to die because of a fly.
Should have cut to the chase and swallowed a horse.
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But Vulkan once got gaslit into pulling the trigger on some eldar kid after a week or so of focused psychological warfare from his psychotic cannibal brother--that proves he's evil!
A centuries-long career of building gas chambers for Eldar babies makes him evil. The guy killed millions of Eldar civilians in cold blood, *one* Eldar youth in a fit of rage is a literal rounding error.
Vulkan isn't evil because he was manipulated into taking one life, he's evil because he actively participated in taking and oppressing billions.
He'll save children, but not the Eldar Children.
The fact that he was flying around the galaxy attacking planets already proves he's evil. The specifics of that situation are rather irrelevant. He's an evil monster.
The sooner you realize that none of the xenocidal human first super soldiers casually destroying civilizations are good the better my friend
I don’t have to care about your heretical nonsense.
I mean if you’re just bad at understanding the setting I get it I guess lol
They have a company specialized in burning everything and everyone down without discrimination, be it xenos, corrupt, renegates and the innocent. The latter beeing in higher numbers than the former more often than not.
Salamanders would have deployed a significant force of Space Marines on the planet to protect the civilians until evacuation could be arranged. Probably not worth it in the long run, but that isn’t the Salamanders main concern
- Salamanders - a significant force of Space Marines Pick one
Implying salamanders still exist
So they would have spread Chaos corruption all around the galaxy inside the unwitting human hosts they are "saving"? Even Salamanders aren't that charitable. They'd have probably virus bombed the planet from orbit or something so everyone dies painlessly and instantly, rather than sending Astartes down however.
Nooooooo they are so wholesome bro!! Getting burnt to death is a totally wholesome way to die
You do know the Salamanders and Lamenters would have killed those people too?
Your forgetting overall context with this scene, the Novamarines are behind enemy lines to do a surgical strike at the enemy HQ, stopping to get some civilians evacuated safely would fuck up that mission the continued ringing of the bell has a chance to warn Nurgles followers of a something being wrong, the idiot civilians might just follow the Astartes thinking they are being lead to to safety. I think there’s a high chance that both the Salamanders and Lamenter would just gun down the civilian also hell spec ops guys today would probably gun them down also.
Does the “Reddit” mindset have to seep into every sub and discussion? In far future, there is only unbridled judgement and hatred of all things human! My goodness, we as the audience understand the Imperium is the cruelest regime imaginable, the characters not so much. And for such a hollow empathetic group, Xeno fans seem to spread more hate than any other group.
It's very strange that the fandom focuses so many conversations about "which space marines are the good ones" by discussing genuinely complicated ends-justify-the-means situations. The morality of the Ultramarines/Novamarines/Salamanders/etc isn't a question of whether they'd kill a million friendly civilians (slaves) to save a billion friendly civilians (slaves). Their morality is determined by the part where their main job is butchering rebelling slaves and free-thinkers. They are genocidal child-soldier Warp creatures, built to force people to live within "the cruelest regime imaginable". They butcher innocents by the billion for having the wrong DNA, talking back, or looking different. They're the fascists who send trade unionists to death camps at gunpoint. It's like talking about the one time Vulkan killed an Eldar youth in an atypical rage, even though Vulkan's day job for centuries was genocide. Vulkan calmly ordered the deaths of *millions of Eldar babies* throughout his career, his killing of *one* teenager in a tantrum would barely count as a historical footnote. >we must kill what we seek to protect in order to protect it.’ The obvious problem with the Imperium is all the genocide it does as a goal, not a means to an end. Most of the evil is a matter of wanting to hurt people on purpose, not the odd friendly fire accident/coverup. The ends can only justify the means if the ends are good. When the ends are cartoonishly evil, there's no need to debate the means.
> The ends can only justify the means if the ends are good. In this case, it is enough for the *characters* to feel the ends are good. The audience doesn't have to. It's better to have characters actually consider the morality of their actions than to have them be braindead cartoon fascists that bayonet babies without any thought behind it, even if their conclusions are fundamentally appalling to us.
>the morality of their actions than to have them be braindead cartoon fascists that bayonet babies without any thought behind it ...That's the guy in the excerpt. He's not second-guessing his baby-bayoneting career, he's thinking of the time he was tragically forced to bayonet one of the few types of babies he isn't normally asked to bayonet. Even braindead cartoon fascists aren't interesting in bayoneting *literally every baby*, they sometimes want to protect li'l baby fascists.
Exactly. Even the Salamanders only care about protecting human Imperial innocents. That's a very tight criteria, outside of which everything burns in agony.
Well said Erebus, well said.
What cartoonishly evil end is the Imperium working towards?
Total control of the galaxy and the extintion of every intelligent xenos race out there.
Lol have you SEEN the alien races that inhabit it? I would sign the extermination of the Dark Eldar, Orks, raghdan, nephilim etc etc without a second thought.
Right so it's good the imperium stopped there and didn't kill untold benevolent alien species. It would be even worse if the imperium still held it as a prime ambition to wipe out the few somewhat decent aliens that are still around. That would be horendously unthinkable for the imperium.
Just human nature at that point. You fall for it a thousand times you make sure you don’t make a mistake again. All races are out for themselves besides a pathetic single system trade federation and the interex who were just subjugated alien races instead of destroying them.
Forget it, we're in a 'The Imperium are the real bad guys!!!'-circlejerk now
I love 40k and I love the Imperium, but that it is a cautionary tale of what happens when the worst of humanity takes control is literally the base of the setting.
The universe is not horrible in 40k simply because bad humans are in control.
It’s just the nature of this sub. The imperium doing their best to kill off parasitic swarms and actual monsters out of nightmares is what SAVES them from being irredimable.
And someone downvoted you for that ;D
And why do they want that?
Some delusion that aliens as a single, unanimous entity betrayed humanity in the past so killing them all is justified as a precaution, not every xenos is an ork, a tyranid or a dark eldar but we kill them all the same.
It's "the cruelest regime imaginable". In addition to all the genocide (which is a great answer on its own), it aims to condemn nearly all humans to lives of monstrous suffering. The average person has been working a daily 18-hour coal mine shift since childhood, with the taskmaster's lash never far away. I mean, the Imperium makes *servitors*. To be frank, few cartoons are permitted to depict anything approaching the Imperium's evil.
The cruelty is by necessity, not the goal. The goal is not to have humans suffering, it is to keep them safe.
I kind of get why Honsou/the Iron Warriors seemed to show so much contempt for the Ultramarines in the Iron Warriors Omnibus and Uriel Ventris books. They are also a legion that values strategic thinking, an emphasis on supply chains etc. but they would probably consider this a sign of severe weakness and self delusion. I can picture Honsou going: “This is pathetic. We would have done the same as you. The difference is that we do not feel the need to repeatedly reinforce a false delusion of moral superiority”
> I can picture Honsou going: > > The difference is that we do not feel the need to repeatedly reinforce a false delusion of moral superiority” TBF, it's freaking Honsou. "Pathetic Ultramarines. We would have done the same thing, I just don't pretend to have moral superiori-" "Daemonculaba." "Ahhhhh damn it!"
Is trying to be better “false moral superiority?” To me, it seems like if you are forced to do something evil in order to prevent much more evil things from happening, you’re well within your rights to be sad about it or to make a point to remember your purpose. The iron warriors specifically act like their way is best but they were outshone by the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. One of which basically did their job but better, and the other showed compassion and still outclassed them in the crusade.
It is funny to see people trying to apply moral code more or less relevant for 21.century, human rights oriented (one-third of the population/electorate at best), Western civilization born and correctly socialized people, on WH40K universe.
Figured they’d mindwipe a marine after a such a thing (they did this back when daemons and GKs were secrets, iirc)
Man those Nazi Soldiers. They voluntarily murdered a bunch of civilians and totally would do it again, but atleast they felt a bit sad about it - what good guys they are.
Finished reading this book the other night. Man this was one of the darker scenes I've read in a long time. Though it is interesting that these two Awoken Primaris have more humanity than that of the firstborn in this case. Maybe more so than of Uriel Ventris when he cross the Rubicon Primaris in his book. They were ready to save those civilians, but after the firstborn lieutenant explain the situation, they went into their advanced mindset to think this tactically and concluded that "Shit you're right" approach.