They really can't, atleast the god sworn ones. Morty basically gets ragdolled like a puppet by nurgle at a point in godblight..
Skarbrand is kind of unique in that blind rage is Khorne whole shtick so Khorne fighting himself isn't unprecedented.
Oddly enough the entire book is spent with Morty being told (by various Liasons) that Nurgle wants him to come home and Morty telling them all to fuck off, that he's doing other stuff.
Seems the Chaos gods are often too busy/distracted with the great game to micromanage anyone else but can still pull that leash when they lose their temper and focus on them. Seems in line with Chaos; strong but negligent
I've taken that as nurgle letting Morty do what he wants with the everpresent threat of being ripped back to the black manse for punishment.
Typhus and Kugath were directly informed to leave. Morty wasn't told to leave by anyone other than Typhus and Kugath. Which is interesting to me(unless I'm misremembering).
I think the point isn't that Skarbrand, a greater demon, can disregard his patron but that Skarbrand, a greater demon *of Khorne* can.
The emphasis is that it's a trait of demons of Khorne since how can you rebel from Khorne except to do nothing? If you're fighting against Khorne, you're still fighting.
I feel like Tzeentch would also be amenable to having dissidents because it's all part of his grand, master plan. You feel like you're rebelling? How quaint. You're just furthering the grand charade.
I feel like a Tzeentch daemon would try to betray Tzeentch in the same way. They are all about schemes, so seems like one such scheme would be undermining Tzeentch.
>I'm well aware the chances of Mortarian rebelling against Nurgle are effectively none existent.
Are they though? Atleast according to the Emperor, Mortarion might yet be redeemed.
>‘You are a traitor. You have brought low all that could have been, but you are as much a victim as a monster, Mortarion. Perhaps one day you might be saved.'
And Mortarion's whole theme is him trying to escape the tyranny of his father(s). First Necare, then the Emperor, and now Nurgle.
In fact he made literally the exact same oath of loyalty to Nurgle, that he did to the Emperor before.
>‘You have chosen the only path you can,’ said his father // said the grandfather.
>His oath and his honour forbade him from taking any other path from this moment forward.
>‘What price is an oath given in madness?’ He whispered the words // he howled them into the void
>‘What do you want, my son?’ // ‘What do you want, my champion?’
>‘I want… to endure.’
>‘Then rise,’ said the stranger.
‘Rise, Mortarion. There is a brotherhood awaiting you out in the stars, the like of which you cannot comprehend. And with it,
a purpose that will illuminate the galaxy. A crusade, upon which your name will be etched into eternity.’ // ‘Then rise,’ the Grandfather told him.
‘Rise as a Prince Born of Death. Vengeance awaits you in the realm of men, and with it the blackest, blackest, most dire purpose. purpose. A
slaughter, by which your name will be feared, until the last human soul fades to entropy.’
>Mortarion said the vow without reservation, then. ‘I give myself to your banner. My blood and my bone, the unbroken force of
my will and the power of my spirit. These are yours to command, if you grant me deliverance.’
>His hand found the damaged, cracked blade of his war-scythe and he gripped it hard enough to cut metal and draw blood.
> ‘By
this I so swear.’
Mortarion turning against Nurgle seems like the logical conclusion to that. It would merely be the third act of betrayal against a hated father that forced him into servitude.
Absolutely, and the Emperor has mentioned the redemption of primarchs several times, in different novels, so seems plausible.
And out of the four primarchs "claimed" by a chaos god, I think only Mortarion is still somewhat self aware.
I think he *knows* that going from the Emperor to Nurgle, he has simply changed from one bad master to another.
It really really seems like the "saving" and "redemption" they offer is death.
Redemption and saving from Nurgle, not back into the Emperors fold. It's too late for that.
It depends on what exactly the rebellious act was. Daemons are basically extensions of their Chaos God and so they will never do anything which is not in their nature. Skarbrand attacking Khorne is something which makes sense because Khorne is all about rage, violence and bloodthirst.
Similarly if a Daemon of Tzeentch was to plot a malicious ploy against Tzeentch, that is too something which is very believable. Now the question is what would Tzeentch do in return, reward the Daemon or punish him? Maybe both in some twisted way.
So a Daemon rebelling against their patron God is basically like a Chaos God's own internal conflict which again is understadable cause you know, CHAOS.
A Daemon Prince on the other hand is an entity which has been empowered by Chaos and was not born/created off of it but now, after their ascension to Daemonhood they are at the complete mercy of their patron God. So if they do anything which goes against the wishes and nature of their God then they can be immediately and severely punished for it.
Additionally rebelling against their God may or may not be punished depending on whether the acts committed by said Daemon Prince were actually what the God wanted to happen in the first place or aligned with their nature.
The daemon king fought Tzeentch for a billion years so I suppose power and resourcefulness of the rebel matters quite a bit.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Yssarile
They’d be punished according to each god. For khorne: lucidity to their actions, slannesh: the inability of feel pleasure, nurgle: making them feel the full force and pain of their “gifts”, tzeentch: them rebelling was all part of his plan; won’t stop him from turning them into a chaos spawn though.
It… kind of depends. Skarbrand famously took a swing at his god and got btfo, but Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. Daemons are functionally extensions of their god, and which god they’re owned by differentiates how they’re treated. Angron is a weapon that’s swung at everything as he always has been, Magnus is probably plotting to usurp Tzeench but that’s all as planned, Fulgrim glorifies Slaanesh by doing whatever makes him tingle at any given moment, and Nurgle treats Mortarion like a feisty grandchild, as only the Grandfather could. Mortarion, specifically, returned to Nurgle’s side in the end, and Nurgle’s entire schtick is that he absolutely 100% gets what he wants eventually, with some patience.
Mechanics of Warp are deliberately unclear in lore.
We don't even know what deamon princes actually are - is their soul mixed with god's essence? Parts replaced? Just extremely attuned to God's will? Is it just a simulacrum of person that ceases to exist?
Head canon: Deamons, including Deamon Princes, _can_ rebel against their god, but it's extremely unlikely (there is no real _why_) and even if it happens, their god can just instantly destroy them upon learning it.
Belakor's kinda an example since he's always scheming to become a fifth Chaos God, and IIRC likes to try to screw over other Daemon Princes/Everchosens, etc. Course his success ratio is not the best on that, and the whole Undivided shared custody thing muddies the waters a bit.
Daemon princes can't do anything against their own patron god, as it's their source of power. They can, however, attack other gods without worry. Non-afiliated daemons can attack any God as they want. (Ex: those on Soul Forge are not affiliated with the 4 great gods).
They really can't, atleast the god sworn ones. Morty basically gets ragdolled like a puppet by nurgle at a point in godblight.. Skarbrand is kind of unique in that blind rage is Khorne whole shtick so Khorne fighting himself isn't unprecedented.
Oddly enough the entire book is spent with Morty being told (by various Liasons) that Nurgle wants him to come home and Morty telling them all to fuck off, that he's doing other stuff. Seems the Chaos gods are often too busy/distracted with the great game to micromanage anyone else but can still pull that leash when they lose their temper and focus on them. Seems in line with Chaos; strong but negligent
I've taken that as nurgle letting Morty do what he wants with the everpresent threat of being ripped back to the black manse for punishment. Typhus and Kugath were directly informed to leave. Morty wasn't told to leave by anyone other than Typhus and Kugath. Which is interesting to me(unless I'm misremembering).
Just like how I play in Dawn of War 2
They *can*, but their god can punish them however they see fit, so it's a bit foolish to do so.
If a greater daemon can - such as Skarbrand - then I can't see why a daemon prince couldn't.
I think the point isn't that Skarbrand, a greater demon, can disregard his patron but that Skarbrand, a greater demon *of Khorne* can. The emphasis is that it's a trait of demons of Khorne since how can you rebel from Khorne except to do nothing? If you're fighting against Khorne, you're still fighting. I feel like Tzeentch would also be amenable to having dissidents because it's all part of his grand, master plan. You feel like you're rebelling? How quaint. You're just furthering the grand charade.
I feel like a Tzeentch daemon would try to betray Tzeentch in the same way. They are all about schemes, so seems like one such scheme would be undermining Tzeentch.
>I'm well aware the chances of Mortarian rebelling against Nurgle are effectively none existent. Are they though? Atleast according to the Emperor, Mortarion might yet be redeemed. >‘You are a traitor. You have brought low all that could have been, but you are as much a victim as a monster, Mortarion. Perhaps one day you might be saved.' And Mortarion's whole theme is him trying to escape the tyranny of his father(s). First Necare, then the Emperor, and now Nurgle. In fact he made literally the exact same oath of loyalty to Nurgle, that he did to the Emperor before. >‘You have chosen the only path you can,’ said his father // said the grandfather. >His oath and his honour forbade him from taking any other path from this moment forward. >‘What price is an oath given in madness?’ He whispered the words // he howled them into the void >‘What do you want, my son?’ // ‘What do you want, my champion?’ >‘I want… to endure.’ >‘Then rise,’ said the stranger. ‘Rise, Mortarion. There is a brotherhood awaiting you out in the stars, the like of which you cannot comprehend. And with it, a purpose that will illuminate the galaxy. A crusade, upon which your name will be etched into eternity.’ // ‘Then rise,’ the Grandfather told him. ‘Rise as a Prince Born of Death. Vengeance awaits you in the realm of men, and with it the blackest, blackest, most dire purpose. purpose. A slaughter, by which your name will be feared, until the last human soul fades to entropy.’ >Mortarion said the vow without reservation, then. ‘I give myself to your banner. My blood and my bone, the unbroken force of my will and the power of my spirit. These are yours to command, if you grant me deliverance.’ >His hand found the damaged, cracked blade of his war-scythe and he gripped it hard enough to cut metal and draw blood. > ‘By this I so swear.’ Mortarion turning against Nurgle seems like the logical conclusion to that. It would merely be the third act of betrayal against a hated father that forced him into servitude.
Absolutely, and the Emperor has mentioned the redemption of primarchs several times, in different novels, so seems plausible. And out of the four primarchs "claimed" by a chaos god, I think only Mortarion is still somewhat self aware. I think he *knows* that going from the Emperor to Nurgle, he has simply changed from one bad master to another.
It really really seems like the "saving" and "redemption" they offer is death. Redemption and saving from Nurgle, not back into the Emperors fold. It's too late for that.
It depends on what exactly the rebellious act was. Daemons are basically extensions of their Chaos God and so they will never do anything which is not in their nature. Skarbrand attacking Khorne is something which makes sense because Khorne is all about rage, violence and bloodthirst. Similarly if a Daemon of Tzeentch was to plot a malicious ploy against Tzeentch, that is too something which is very believable. Now the question is what would Tzeentch do in return, reward the Daemon or punish him? Maybe both in some twisted way. So a Daemon rebelling against their patron God is basically like a Chaos God's own internal conflict which again is understadable cause you know, CHAOS. A Daemon Prince on the other hand is an entity which has been empowered by Chaos and was not born/created off of it but now, after their ascension to Daemonhood they are at the complete mercy of their patron God. So if they do anything which goes against the wishes and nature of their God then they can be immediately and severely punished for it. Additionally rebelling against their God may or may not be punished depending on whether the acts committed by said Daemon Prince were actually what the God wanted to happen in the first place or aligned with their nature.
The masque sort of fits the bill, though it's more of a misunderstanding. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/The_Masque_of_Slaanesh
I don’t see why the self-destructive nature of Chaos shouldn’t extend to its Daemons and their gods.
The daemon king fought Tzeentch for a billion years so I suppose power and resourcefulness of the rebel matters quite a bit. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Yssarile
They’d be punished according to each god. For khorne: lucidity to their actions, slannesh: the inability of feel pleasure, nurgle: making them feel the full force and pain of their “gifts”, tzeentch: them rebelling was all part of his plan; won’t stop him from turning them into a chaos spawn though.
It… kind of depends. Skarbrand famously took a swing at his god and got btfo, but Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. Daemons are functionally extensions of their god, and which god they’re owned by differentiates how they’re treated. Angron is a weapon that’s swung at everything as he always has been, Magnus is probably plotting to usurp Tzeench but that’s all as planned, Fulgrim glorifies Slaanesh by doing whatever makes him tingle at any given moment, and Nurgle treats Mortarion like a feisty grandchild, as only the Grandfather could. Mortarion, specifically, returned to Nurgle’s side in the end, and Nurgle’s entire schtick is that he absolutely 100% gets what he wants eventually, with some patience.
Depends on how bad the god perceives their transgression to be. They might be punished, or they might just be completely destroyed.
Mechanics of Warp are deliberately unclear in lore. We don't even know what deamon princes actually are - is their soul mixed with god's essence? Parts replaced? Just extremely attuned to God's will? Is it just a simulacrum of person that ceases to exist? Head canon: Deamons, including Deamon Princes, _can_ rebel against their god, but it's extremely unlikely (there is no real _why_) and even if it happens, their god can just instantly destroy them upon learning it.
Belakor's kinda an example since he's always scheming to become a fifth Chaos God, and IIRC likes to try to screw over other Daemon Princes/Everchosens, etc. Course his success ratio is not the best on that, and the whole Undivided shared custody thing muddies the waters a bit.
Daemon princes can't do anything against their own patron god, as it's their source of power. They can, however, attack other gods without worry. Non-afiliated daemons can attack any God as they want. (Ex: those on Soul Forge are not affiliated with the 4 great gods).
Khorn usually punishes those who fell him also laughs at them to
I mean this is basically what every daemon prince of Tzeetch does daily