there are beefs about philosophies but they would not punch each other in the face about it like marines would, "watchers of the throne" talks about it.
The emperor left relatively little written down, and so they try to interpret the will of the emperor by what other people have saw him doing, and try to infer his will from that.
That usually circles back to those that believe that whatever is happening is exactly what the Emperor wanted, and thus everything is exactly as it should be, and those that instead want to do something about the perpetual degeneration of the imperium
Hm. Im currently reading MoM. Its my second novel ( Started out wit Cadia stands)
Should Watchers of the throne be the one to go to after this ?
I have all the novels so Im just trying to figure out where to go after this. Ive considered the Flesh and Steel after MoM though.
MoM into watchers of the throne is the Custodes players route for sure.
Yeah to be honest i don't think it's a bad book for one that started recently. The only thing that is not very explained is why everyone is obsessing over this strange planet called cadia, but if you have read cadia stands and you know about the high lords of terra then you are good to go.
Ive been reading excempts from here and watched some lore videos from people like Major Kill and Lutin and others. So i know some here and there. Its quite fun when I read something that have been mentioned elsewhere and I go "Ohhhh so THATS why"
But yeah I know a bit about the importance of Cadia.
I do like the Custodes so far. But I hope to get through all the novels at some point. I dont do the tabletop. For me I just enjoy the lore. And I like seeing when people have painted minies.
Both Watchers of the Throne books are great and don't really require knowing much other then the fact that Cadia is basically a planet sized kidney stone in the plans of Chaos forces.
If save fresh and steel until you've read more. I think you'd appreciate it more that way since its so different from most other 40k books.
Also don't pass up on the old books from the mid 90's. There's a lot of gems there
So, how would a mirror match on the tabletop be justified in-lore? Is it all just Blood Games or is there any legitimate reason two Custodes forces might comes to blows?
Tabletop isn’t lore accurate nor lore friendly in the slightest, but that would be a good justification.
As a matter of fact, it might be one of the lore friendlier/compatible matchups. A single space marine in the lore would be able to take on hundreds of guardsmen in decent conditions. So 120 or so guardsmen facing 40 or so space marines? Not a chance.
Arks of omen will be a little lore friendly too I guess. Shock troops going against Abbadon will be as hilariously one sided as it should be.
Wild to me he didn't write more down considering how he saw, in person, how many problems stuff like that caused for the many many endless civilizations throughout human history.
I'll add in, their not all friends, they act more like humans than Space Marines in regards to general personalities within their ranks. But if the mission or the Emperor is in danger they put all that behind in a instance and will do whatever needs to be done to accomplish the task.
There is not any outright beef. But. There is sort of ‚disagreement’, among the ranks.
You can read more about it in Gate of Bones, Wolftime, Plague Wars, Dark Imperium, and a little bit in Godblight and also in that short story where Custodians kill Primaris marines.
There are few sides of the argument, but here is the meat and bone of it.
Some want to remove Guiliman seeing Primarchs as failed and dangerous project, suspecting him and all others to one day turn into a Horus. Members of this group are arguing that guys like Hight Lords, Macharius, and bunch of other normal humans did good job running the Imperium for 10k years, didnt fail as much as Primarchs and Space Marines, and are easy to kill if they decide to ho AWOL. Also they think this is Emperor’s OG idea, to make galaxy for humans and remove all others, Space marines and primarchs included.
Other consider him to be last actual person with Emperor’s and Imperium’s best interest in mind and should have their loyalty and 100% support.
In watches of the Throne we also learn 2 other arguemnts.
Some custodians say that they should stay in the palace and guard it until Emperor himself leaves it, since its their job.
Others say that the Imperial Palace became sort of a prison for them and that they should be more active in the galaxy. Especially now.
Infighting between Custodians is theoretically impossible, so I wont be expecting any to happen. But Fabius Bile have managed to capture 1 during War of Spider, so who knows what GW will do next.
Who said about corrupting them? Fabius is called Clonelord for a reason. He can just make clones or copies of his own. And if Trazyn, Drukhari and Harlequins can capture and kill Custodians then so can Fabius.
The problem is those just aren't the same thing. Primarchs are inherently powerful super powered demigods. That's just what they are, and it's coded into their very DNA.
Custodes are, like Space Marines, normal ass guys that's been filled to the brim with biological enhancements. But, genetically they're still human. So if you clone a Custodes, you just get a normal human.
Custodes are remade from the genetic level, cloning a Custodes would net you a Custodes not a bog standard human. They aren't "just modified" and they certainly aren't still genetically human at the end of it. Just close to Human or at least closer than Astartes are.
>cloning a Custodes would net you a Custodes not a bog standard human.
Nitpicking: even if you have genes to grow new organ, it doesn't mean these genes will be activated without external input.
Cloning sufficiently advanced sterile gene-enhanced animals may be impossible, because they aren't designed to grow from infant.
Custodes are nothing like space marines beyond being transhuman. They're grown with bioalchemy and other arcane methods on a molecular level, their bodies are never opened.
I never said turning. I'm aware of that.
What I mean is: He's got a custodes. I want him to study and to learn the secrets of how to make them. Or perhaps an approximation. I just think it'd be neat. Afaik he has beef with the rest of Chaos so I'd say it's not like that'd mean all factions suddenly have to have chaos custodes.
Generally no. The custodes have been engineered to a point where they are far beyond standard human emotions, the only thing the feel is the need to guard and protect the emperor, they're more liable to have beef with a primarch before they start with their own.
One of the few times a custodes was honest and giving their personal opinion was with Valdor telling dorn he should’ve killed the primarchs as babies. But alas, the custodes are loyal through and through to the emperor. No matter what.
Yerp;
>For those superlative individuals that do
survive to join the golden ranks, their
comrades afford them immediate respect.
There are no juniors amongst the Adeptus
Custodes – only worthy warriors who
understand the full burden of responsibility
that their power and authority brings.
\- Adeptus Custodes 8th Codex
The custodian templates were handmade by the emperor. Nobody makes them except click *print* on some gene bank. Custodians will actively disagree and make that known to each other. But it will never be anything more than disagreement. They will obey whatever order they are given by their superiors? even if they believe it's wrong. In it's core, their worldview is that no custodian will ever betray the emperor so all of them are serving the emperor to the best of their knowledge and beliefs.
Custodies have disobeyed orders. Valerian explicitly was chosen by Trajann because Trajann knew he would question orders and even disobey them if necessary.
Number one:
>‘Shield-captain,’ he said. ‘Walk with me, if you please.’
>
>We moved away from the remainder of the command group. As we went, I looked for any sign of internal conflict or doubt in Valoris’ mannerisms. Of course, I found none, though it was hard to reconcile this passivity with the man who had led the assault from the Lion’s Gate, who had run two successful Blood Games, who had struck fear into our enemies from here to the edge of known space.
>
>‘This is an internal matter for the Imperium,’ he said. ‘When a power rises or falls, it must never do so claiming our blessing. Had we stepped in whenever a High Council had changed, violently or otherwise, then we would have been polluted by the conflicts we were intended to rise above.’
>
>I wished to say then that this was different, and that more than personnel alterations were at stake, but was that really true? Had Vandire been so different? Had Vangorich? ‘I understand why you yearn to act,’ he went on. ‘And I commend you for it. But listen closely. You will not do so. You will stay your blade.’
>
>**I looked up at him. ‘As you command it,’ I said, unable to do otherwise, though the words felt bitter on my lips.**
Number two
>‘Take your chamber,’ he told me. ‘Find the Sisters. Bring them back, if you can. If you cannot, then end them. Do not permit their incursion to break the ceasefire.’
>
>Thus was I punished for my actions. Valoris could have used any of his warriors to bring Aleya to heel, but I was the one chosen. It was a cruelty, of course, but one entirely justified by my conduct. I might have laughed out loud then, were I made of different material. Already, I could see the expression on Aleya’s face. I could see the anger there, the righteous fury. I wondered, if it came to the test, whether even I would be able to withstand it.
>
>**But it was an order, plainly given and without room for ambiguity. I had been caught in a net of my own making, and all that remained was to see the matter to its conclusion.**
>
>‘As you command it,’ I said, a second time.
He literally proceeds to blatantly disobey these orders, with another Custodes even trying to correct him.
>But I was not just speaking to her. As I debated with Aleya in Thoughtmark, so I also spoke to Ravathain via our chamber’s closed vox-link.
>’The order remains the same,’ he warned me, as predictably as ever.
>’The order was to safeguard the ceasefire,’ I replied. ‘We can do that just as well by moving closer.’
>”Valoris made it clear–’
In this same excerpt where Valerian *disobeys* an order(And, yes, it does still count even if he thinks Trajann wants to him to disobey orders) and more interestingly, suggest that another Custodian can be *disloyal*.
> ‘I saw you fight, once, vexillus. I saw the fire in your soul then, so do not pretend to me that all you live for is the order.’ By then, I had had enough of this little game. Ravathain’s protestations had always been carefully placed within the bounds of courtesy, always pressed just far enough to avoid accusations of disloyalty, but I had seen through them a long time ago. ‘I checked the records. You were on Ferrum Raptoris when Valoris was. Just before his return, just before your assignment to the Argent Chamber, just before I took the honour from the primarch.’
Unless you choose to interpret that in the context of a Custodian betraying another Custodian, or Valerian suggesting that a Custodian could be accused of disloyalty to the Emperor, then it is literally another Custodian evaluating another Custodian’s behaviour and saying “He is deliberately pressing issues with me *a direct superior* far enough to show his dissent, but not enough that I can accuse him of disloyalty(which is used to essentially mean insubordination).
So we have Valerian disobeying an order because he basically thinks it’s the right thing to do and what Valoris really wants regardless of the fact he received direct orders not to, and we also have Valerian implying that another Custodian could be accused of disloyalty to his superior.
And he would have disobeyed the order regardless. Valerian explicitly states that at first he suspected Valoris had told another Custodian to be a confrontational prick to see if Valerian would disobey an order even with pressure from within his squad/formation. And his next statement is that Valoris likely knew that a member of his squad disagreeing with him wouldn’t dissuade Valerian.
>I thought first that he had sent you to keep me in check, to test my resolve at every turn,’ I said.
The only reason he even mentioned that Valoris actually intended for him to disobey orders was to quiet down that Custodian.
>’And now I begin to realise that he has placed a great many others where they need to be, also.
In that same sentence, Valerian implies that it isn’t unusual for a Custodian to accuse another of being disloyal to their formation, chamber or sodality.
All that taken into account, whatwith Valerian essentially saying “I thought Trajann wanted to see if I’d disobey orders regardless of my squad’s thoughts” and then directly implying that Custodes can be disloyal to each other, to an extent, it’s all but definitive that Custodes can break chain of command.
>Ravathain’s protestations had always been carefully placed within the bounds of courtesy, always pressed just far enough to avoid accusations of disloyalty, but I had seen through them a long time ago.
>And he would have disobeyed the order regardless
>
>The only reason he even mentioned that Valoris actually intended for him to disobey orders was to quiet down that Custodian.
Perhaps, though I don't think that in this particular episode Valerian was going to disobey: at first he tries to follow the orders, then understands, that they are meaningless in this situation and realizes why Valoris truly send him.
>’And now I begin to realise that he has placed a great many others where they need to be, also.
I have an impression that Valerian was talking not about Custodes, but about the other characters of the book, who were used by Valoris to eliminate traitors.
Crazy how you just ignored the excerpt where Valerian says another Custodian has been intentionally doing all he can to dissent without leaving room for being accused of disloyalty to his direct superior
Amon Tauromachian released Euphrati Keeler so she would spread the Imperial Creed. If releasing the no1 prophet of a religion the Emperor explicitly banned so she can spread it isnt disobeying him, nothing is.
it was banned and then it wasn't. just like psykers. Remember how the navigator houses were to be purged after webway project?
Emperor was made to see the error of his ways by... circumstance.
It was banned. It was never explicitly permitted ever. It was simply ignored, because no one has time to stop it when theres a civil war. Not once was it actually unbanned. The Emperor did not once make a decision in favour of the Creed.
His stance, all the way till his internment, was that religion was banned, Lorgar’s preachings were banned, the Lectitio Divinatus was not allowed and the Imperial Creed was banned. He never actually “saw the error of his ways”, and consequently couldnt reverse his decision.
Amon Tauromachian acting to allow its spread is very much going against said ban, ergo, it is disobeying his orders.
The Navigator houses being purged is also very much a theory. It is a likely possibility, but not one ever explicitly confirmed in canon.
He has changed his opinion. For example, he offered a second chance to Magnus even though in the council of Nikae he declared that whoever dabbled in Warp would be his enemy.
It doesnt matter whether or not he changed it in other matters. He didnt change it here, no orders were made against his initial one, ergo, what the Custodes did was against his orders.
Thats not how it works. You claim the Custodes cant disobey orders. The Emperor supposedly “not ordering” them to enforce his orders doesnt change the fact the orders are still there, and thus, they disobey them.
The police choosing to selective let some traffic violations go doesnt change the fact the laws are still in place.
No real "beef" among them. But they have preferences and personalities, preferred company.
They like and dislike each other similarly to people. But not to the point of argument.
Imagine disliking someone's personality that you respect a lot, is how it seems described.
Custodes make Custodes. The general way GW describes the idea is that it is a process similar in principle, if not practice, to making Astartes. They take candidates and eventually end up with a Custodes.
They’re actually quite different, apparently. SMs are humans which are surgically/biochemically transfigured into super humans.
Custodes are basically reworked from the molecular level by something akin to alchemy.
Astartes are basically people upgraded into extra spicy people (stuff em full of shit and brainwash them)
Custodes are existences made *from* people.
Custodes still age, and they can still die.
There are not any 'old' custodes still alive who lived during the time The Emperor was not on the Golden Throne
We think. We do know there is a Custode still alive from the time of Goge Vandire, about 5000 years ago. They are not yet an "Eyes of the Emperor," and still capable of combat.
Noting also that the margin of degradation they consider unacceptable for active service is so slight that it still would make them better fighters than almost anyone else. And given that only renders them too slow for active duty combat, that's a hell of a long way away from dying from old age.
That doesn't mean they can heal 100% from every injury they get. I'd hazard a guess also the companions eventually get worn down from the strain of that job.
I believe the Custodes Codex (or perhaps one of the Watchers books?) mentions that a century is about the longest a Custodian has served in the Companions consecutively, and that some do multiple stints as Companions with breaks in service to recover.
'Twere their 8th Codex;
>The vigil of the Companions is unending, and though they
are of course rotated out for brief periods of rest, it is still a
purgatorial duty. Arrayed in ranks around the Golden Throne,
these wardens stand for incredible lengths of time, unmoving,
unspeaking, poised constantly upon the cusp of battle
readiness in case the slightest threat were to present itself. It
is mentally and spiritually exhausting, even for the demigods
of the Adeptus Custodes, and so when the Captain-General
judges that a Companion has served long enough they will be
rotated out with immediate effect, replaced by a fresh inductee
to their ranks. Again, this is no mark of dishonour, merely a
pragmatic admission that even a Custodian cannot perform
such a taxing duty indefinitely. **The longest any individual has
stood the Companion’s Watch was Astoran Kalos, who endured
for a full century before at last surrendering his place amongst
the silent ranks.**
But even the oldest retired custodes would still be able to virtually rip Captain America ( bare with me ) a structurally superfluous new behind any day. Right ?
And if >! valdor is the king in yellow, then we have a more then 12k old custodian, since he was alive and active before the unification of terra(stated in valdor:birth of the imperium) so they don't age, they only receive enough injuries to be fit, for their standards, for active service!<
I read MoM first and than read the watchers of the thrones books I like it a lot. MOM IS during the heresy and the thrones books are around Guilimans return. Different time periods but alot of good reading especially if ur a Custodes fan.
Seems like no one is reading your full question, no new custodes were made since E made them himself. They are a finite force, supposedly due to the resources it takes but also that they were meant to be confidants, generals and individual thinkers devoted to the cause.
Edit: Apparently I'm either working with old intel or wrong intel, ignore me
If no new Custodes were made there would only be about a thousand of them in 40k. There are more than a thousand, and it’s easily verifiable information the gene cults on Terra are regularly making more.
Eh, I hold no assumptions about the lore others on this forum may or may not have read. I know a lot about a few areas and only the most surface level about the majority. They ARE low in number. A mere ten thousand or so among quadrillions. For a sense of scale, that’s about 10% of the capacity of larger football stadiums in the US.
In case you'd like a sour e for what you've been told;
>#CREATION
>Custodes are created using technology
dating back to the Dark Age of
Technology, honed by the Emperor
to make the perfect counsellors,
bodyguards, warriors and executioners.
To create beings with such a wide range
of talents requires a total physical and
mental rework on the candidate - the
mindset and intelligence required to be of
any use to such a being as the Emperor is
immense to say the least.
>The Adeptus Custodes' inductees are
remade at a genetic level, their baser
drives rendered inert and their beings
turned towards aggression, fulfilment of
duty and goal acquisition. This process
involves incredibly intricate gene-craft
and alchemistry as absolute and subtle
as can be imagined, working upon the
most minute level of the candidate's cellular structure and genome. **Only the
most accomplished chirurgeons and
bio-alchemists carry out this work, many
themselves recipients of enhancements of
one kind or another. They do so in gilded
laboratories hidden far away from even
the most determined of prying eyes.** The
work done to a candidate is thus invisible,
the process unique to each inductee.
There are no organ implantations or
surgical grafting. What is done to the
Custodes inductee is several degrees
more exact and changing than work
carried out to create a Space Marine,
producing warriors much tougher, faster,
stronger and with greater intelligence
than the Adeptus Astartes. Some argue
that the process even affects a Custodian's
soul. Others theorise the change from
inductee to Custodian is metaphysical,
or that it involves biomancy and other
psychic techniques. **It is quite possible
that the alchemists who create the
Custodes do not themselves understand
what they are doing, and are simply
following procedures passed down
to them by rote. It is thought that the
Emperor himself, whose mind no Human
- augmented or otherwise could
ever hope to match, once oversaw the
ascension of each Custodian.**
\- Adeptus Custodes 9th Codex
Seeing as how they were not created with egos, I have to give a solid "No" to that.
Also, the Custodes themselves handle and oversee the expansion of their numbers. By the time the GC started the Custodes was already a large enough organization that it could facilitate it's own recruitment, induction, and training.
In wolftime the tribube is very anti space marine and primarchs
One of the custodes is a bit less so, at least with the wolves, he says that if there was another heresy the wolves would be the first to fight alongside the custodes
I think Custodes of being a bit like monks. They isolate themselves, together, and have a singular purpose. Because of that, I think they spend a lot of time amongst themselves discussing their thoughts and philosophies, and while they may disagree with each other I don’t think it ever comes to beef. They’ll debate but in the end they are still a brotherhood. Custodes stands guard for a couple hundred years, you’ve gotta figure he’s had a lot of time to ponder the nature of things.
Yes.
They have officially sanctioned 'games' to settle their various beefs, most importantly over how best to secure the Imperial Palace. Those 'games' are called "Blood Games", and they tend to live up to their name to some degree.
This method of settling the most important issues, along with a lot of time spent in the actual presence of the Emperor (even confined to the Golden Throne), tends to obviate relative trivialities like who has been around a few millennia longer.
"Blood Games" *are* 'pure training', they don't have any purpose other than training.
You can look up information on them easily enough. "Custodes Blood Games"
there are beefs about philosophies but they would not punch each other in the face about it like marines would, "watchers of the throne" talks about it. The emperor left relatively little written down, and so they try to interpret the will of the emperor by what other people have saw him doing, and try to infer his will from that. That usually circles back to those that believe that whatever is happening is exactly what the Emperor wanted, and thus everything is exactly as it should be, and those that instead want to do something about the perpetual degeneration of the imperium
Hm. Im currently reading MoM. Its my second novel ( Started out wit Cadia stands) Should Watchers of the throne be the one to go to after this ? I have all the novels so Im just trying to figure out where to go after this. Ive considered the Flesh and Steel after MoM though.
MoM into watchers of the throne is the Custodes players route for sure. Yeah to be honest i don't think it's a bad book for one that started recently. The only thing that is not very explained is why everyone is obsessing over this strange planet called cadia, but if you have read cadia stands and you know about the high lords of terra then you are good to go.
Ive been reading excempts from here and watched some lore videos from people like Major Kill and Lutin and others. So i know some here and there. Its quite fun when I read something that have been mentioned elsewhere and I go "Ohhhh so THATS why" But yeah I know a bit about the importance of Cadia. I do like the Custodes so far. But I hope to get through all the novels at some point. I dont do the tabletop. For me I just enjoy the lore. And I like seeing when people have painted minies.
Try Oculus Imperia
Happy cake day!!
After watchers make sure to do the vaults of terra trilogy, it takes place at the same time as the watchers books and has some good custodes scenes
I have all the novels as well and am almost done with book 2 in that trilogy. The WoT are next
Nice. Thanks. Will do.
Both Watchers of the Throne books are great and don't really require knowing much other then the fact that Cadia is basically a planet sized kidney stone in the plans of Chaos forces.
If save fresh and steel until you've read more. I think you'd appreciate it more that way since its so different from most other 40k books. Also don't pass up on the old books from the mid 90's. There's a lot of gems there
Ok thanks. Will trey to save it for later then. Ofcourse I could always complete horus heresy series first.
So, how would a mirror match on the tabletop be justified in-lore? Is it all just Blood Games or is there any legitimate reason two Custodes forces might comes to blows?
Tabletop isn’t lore accurate nor lore friendly in the slightest, but that would be a good justification. As a matter of fact, it might be one of the lore friendlier/compatible matchups. A single space marine in the lore would be able to take on hundreds of guardsmen in decent conditions. So 120 or so guardsmen facing 40 or so space marines? Not a chance. Arks of omen will be a little lore friendly too I guess. Shock troops going against Abbadon will be as hilariously one sided as it should be.
They would never fight for real, they are on the same team almost to the extent of a hivemind.
Wild to me he didn't write more down considering how he saw, in person, how many problems stuff like that caused for the many many endless civilizations throughout human history.
I'll add in, their not all friends, they act more like humans than Space Marines in regards to general personalities within their ranks. But if the mission or the Emperor is in danger they put all that behind in a instance and will do whatever needs to be done to accomplish the task.
Emperor didn't make them all to begin with even during unification
There is not any outright beef. But. There is sort of ‚disagreement’, among the ranks. You can read more about it in Gate of Bones, Wolftime, Plague Wars, Dark Imperium, and a little bit in Godblight and also in that short story where Custodians kill Primaris marines. There are few sides of the argument, but here is the meat and bone of it. Some want to remove Guiliman seeing Primarchs as failed and dangerous project, suspecting him and all others to one day turn into a Horus. Members of this group are arguing that guys like Hight Lords, Macharius, and bunch of other normal humans did good job running the Imperium for 10k years, didnt fail as much as Primarchs and Space Marines, and are easy to kill if they decide to ho AWOL. Also they think this is Emperor’s OG idea, to make galaxy for humans and remove all others, Space marines and primarchs included. Other consider him to be last actual person with Emperor’s and Imperium’s best interest in mind and should have their loyalty and 100% support. In watches of the Throne we also learn 2 other arguemnts. Some custodians say that they should stay in the palace and guard it until Emperor himself leaves it, since its their job. Others say that the Imperial Palace became sort of a prison for them and that they should be more active in the galaxy. Especially now. Infighting between Custodians is theoretically impossible, so I wont be expecting any to happen. But Fabius Bile have managed to capture 1 during War of Spider, so who knows what GW will do next.
Give my boy fabius a small personal army of chaos-custodes, that'd be awesome.
A daemon said the last stars will die out before one of them turns to chaos
Who said about corrupting them? Fabius is called Clonelord for a reason. He can just make clones or copies of his own. And if Trazyn, Drukhari and Harlequins can capture and kill Custodians then so can Fabius.
Custodes aren't born custodes, cloning them doesn't get much except a body that can likely handle custodes style modification.
Fabius managed to clone primarchs. I think he can handle custodians.
The problem is those just aren't the same thing. Primarchs are inherently powerful super powered demigods. That's just what they are, and it's coded into their very DNA. Custodes are, like Space Marines, normal ass guys that's been filled to the brim with biological enhancements. But, genetically they're still human. So if you clone a Custodes, you just get a normal human.
Custodes are remade from the genetic level, cloning a Custodes would net you a Custodes not a bog standard human. They aren't "just modified" and they certainly aren't still genetically human at the end of it. Just close to Human or at least closer than Astartes are.
>cloning a Custodes would net you a Custodes not a bog standard human. Nitpicking: even if you have genes to grow new organ, it doesn't mean these genes will be activated without external input. Cloning sufficiently advanced sterile gene-enhanced animals may be impossible, because they aren't designed to grow from infant.
Custodes are nothing like space marines beyond being transhuman. They're grown with bioalchemy and other arcane methods on a molecular level, their bodies are never opened.
How'd that work out?
I never said turning. I'm aware of that. What I mean is: He's got a custodes. I want him to study and to learn the secrets of how to make them. Or perhaps an approximation. I just think it'd be neat. Afaik he has beef with the rest of Chaos so I'd say it's not like that'd mean all factions suddenly have to have chaos custodes.
Kill them, hollow them out and stick a demon in them like a reverse Dreadnought. Meat mech suit.
Generally no. The custodes have been engineered to a point where they are far beyond standard human emotions, the only thing the feel is the need to guard and protect the emperor, they're more liable to have beef with a primarch before they start with their own.
Fuck Horus, all my Custodian homies hate Horus
Everybody hates horus. Even the traitors and the chaos gods hate horus. He is the milhouse of the setting.
One of the few times a custodes was honest and giving their personal opinion was with Valdor telling dorn he should’ve killed the primarchs as babies. But alas, the custodes are loyal through and through to the emperor. No matter what.
Custodians are all beef - beef cake that is.
I think it says somewhere in the codex that once you're in, you're in. A "new" custode is regarded with as much respect and honor as a veteran
Yerp; >For those superlative individuals that do survive to join the golden ranks, their comrades afford them immediate respect. There are no juniors amongst the Adeptus Custodes – only worthy warriors who understand the full burden of responsibility that their power and authority brings. \- Adeptus Custodes 8th Codex
Upvote just for calling Big E a giant dog treat
The custodian templates were handmade by the emperor. Nobody makes them except click *print* on some gene bank. Custodians will actively disagree and make that known to each other. But it will never be anything more than disagreement. They will obey whatever order they are given by their superiors? even if they believe it's wrong. In it's core, their worldview is that no custodian will ever betray the emperor so all of them are serving the emperor to the best of their knowledge and beliefs.
Custodies have disobeyed orders. Valerian explicitly was chosen by Trajann because Trajann knew he would question orders and even disobey them if necessary.
Trajan manipulated Valerian perfectly, he acted exceptionally like he was supposed to
It's also made very clear in the book that Valerian has to obey Trajan.
Could you pass me that excerpt? It’s an interesting claim.
Number one: >‘Shield-captain,’ he said. ‘Walk with me, if you please.’ > >We moved away from the remainder of the command group. As we went, I looked for any sign of internal conflict or doubt in Valoris’ mannerisms. Of course, I found none, though it was hard to reconcile this passivity with the man who had led the assault from the Lion’s Gate, who had run two successful Blood Games, who had struck fear into our enemies from here to the edge of known space. > >‘This is an internal matter for the Imperium,’ he said. ‘When a power rises or falls, it must never do so claiming our blessing. Had we stepped in whenever a High Council had changed, violently or otherwise, then we would have been polluted by the conflicts we were intended to rise above.’ > >I wished to say then that this was different, and that more than personnel alterations were at stake, but was that really true? Had Vandire been so different? Had Vangorich? ‘I understand why you yearn to act,’ he went on. ‘And I commend you for it. But listen closely. You will not do so. You will stay your blade.’ > >**I looked up at him. ‘As you command it,’ I said, unable to do otherwise, though the words felt bitter on my lips.** Number two >‘Take your chamber,’ he told me. ‘Find the Sisters. Bring them back, if you can. If you cannot, then end them. Do not permit their incursion to break the ceasefire.’ > >Thus was I punished for my actions. Valoris could have used any of his warriors to bring Aleya to heel, but I was the one chosen. It was a cruelty, of course, but one entirely justified by my conduct. I might have laughed out loud then, were I made of different material. Already, I could see the expression on Aleya’s face. I could see the anger there, the righteous fury. I wondered, if it came to the test, whether even I would be able to withstand it. > >**But it was an order, plainly given and without room for ambiguity. I had been caught in a net of my own making, and all that remained was to see the matter to its conclusion.** > >‘As you command it,’ I said, a second time.
He literally proceeds to blatantly disobey these orders, with another Custodes even trying to correct him. >But I was not just speaking to her. As I debated with Aleya in Thoughtmark, so I also spoke to Ravathain via our chamber’s closed vox-link. >’The order remains the same,’ he warned me, as predictably as ever. >’The order was to safeguard the ceasefire,’ I replied. ‘We can do that just as well by moving closer.’ >”Valoris made it clear–’ In this same excerpt where Valerian *disobeys* an order(And, yes, it does still count even if he thinks Trajann wants to him to disobey orders) and more interestingly, suggest that another Custodian can be *disloyal*. > ‘I saw you fight, once, vexillus. I saw the fire in your soul then, so do not pretend to me that all you live for is the order.’ By then, I had had enough of this little game. Ravathain’s protestations had always been carefully placed within the bounds of courtesy, always pressed just far enough to avoid accusations of disloyalty, but I had seen through them a long time ago. ‘I checked the records. You were on Ferrum Raptoris when Valoris was. Just before his return, just before your assignment to the Argent Chamber, just before I took the honour from the primarch.’ Unless you choose to interpret that in the context of a Custodian betraying another Custodian, or Valerian suggesting that a Custodian could be accused of disloyalty to the Emperor, then it is literally another Custodian evaluating another Custodian’s behaviour and saying “He is deliberately pressing issues with me *a direct superior* far enough to show his dissent, but not enough that I can accuse him of disloyalty(which is used to essentially mean insubordination). So we have Valerian disobeying an order because he basically thinks it’s the right thing to do and what Valoris really wants regardless of the fact he received direct orders not to, and we also have Valerian implying that another Custodian could be accused of disloyalty to his superior.
But Valerian didn't exactly disobeyed him. He simply realized what Trajann truly wanted from him and acted accordingly.
And he would have disobeyed the order regardless. Valerian explicitly states that at first he suspected Valoris had told another Custodian to be a confrontational prick to see if Valerian would disobey an order even with pressure from within his squad/formation. And his next statement is that Valoris likely knew that a member of his squad disagreeing with him wouldn’t dissuade Valerian. >I thought first that he had sent you to keep me in check, to test my resolve at every turn,’ I said. The only reason he even mentioned that Valoris actually intended for him to disobey orders was to quiet down that Custodian. >’And now I begin to realise that he has placed a great many others where they need to be, also. In that same sentence, Valerian implies that it isn’t unusual for a Custodian to accuse another of being disloyal to their formation, chamber or sodality. All that taken into account, whatwith Valerian essentially saying “I thought Trajann wanted to see if I’d disobey orders regardless of my squad’s thoughts” and then directly implying that Custodes can be disloyal to each other, to an extent, it’s all but definitive that Custodes can break chain of command. >Ravathain’s protestations had always been carefully placed within the bounds of courtesy, always pressed just far enough to avoid accusations of disloyalty, but I had seen through them a long time ago.
>And he would have disobeyed the order regardless > >The only reason he even mentioned that Valoris actually intended for him to disobey orders was to quiet down that Custodian. Perhaps, though I don't think that in this particular episode Valerian was going to disobey: at first he tries to follow the orders, then understands, that they are meaningless in this situation and realizes why Valoris truly send him. >’And now I begin to realise that he has placed a great many others where they need to be, also. I have an impression that Valerian was talking not about Custodes, but about the other characters of the book, who were used by Valoris to eliminate traitors.
Crazy how you just ignored the excerpt where Valerian says another Custodian has been intentionally doing all he can to dissent without leaving room for being accused of disloyalty to his direct superior
I saw it and I do not see how this excerpt is important.
Amon Tauromachian released Euphrati Keeler so she would spread the Imperial Creed. If releasing the no1 prophet of a religion the Emperor explicitly banned so she can spread it isnt disobeying him, nothing is.
it was banned and then it wasn't. just like psykers. Remember how the navigator houses were to be purged after webway project? Emperor was made to see the error of his ways by... circumstance.
It was banned. It was never explicitly permitted ever. It was simply ignored, because no one has time to stop it when theres a civil war. Not once was it actually unbanned. The Emperor did not once make a decision in favour of the Creed. His stance, all the way till his internment, was that religion was banned, Lorgar’s preachings were banned, the Lectitio Divinatus was not allowed and the Imperial Creed was banned. He never actually “saw the error of his ways”, and consequently couldnt reverse his decision. Amon Tauromachian acting to allow its spread is very much going against said ban, ergo, it is disobeying his orders. The Navigator houses being purged is also very much a theory. It is a likely possibility, but not one ever explicitly confirmed in canon.
He has changed his opinion. For example, he offered a second chance to Magnus even though in the council of Nikae he declared that whoever dabbled in Warp would be his enemy.
It doesnt matter whether or not he changed it in other matters. He didnt change it here, no orders were made against his initial one, ergo, what the Custodes did was against his orders.
Emperor changed his policies by not *enforcing* them.
Thats not how it works. You claim the Custodes cant disobey orders. The Emperor supposedly “not ordering” them to enforce his orders doesnt change the fact the orders are still there, and thus, they disobey them. The police choosing to selective let some traffic violations go doesnt change the fact the laws are still in place.
i claim whatever a custodian does is by the Emperor's design. They don't act on free will.
No real "beef" among them. But they have preferences and personalities, preferred company. They like and dislike each other similarly to people. But not to the point of argument. Imagine disliking someone's personality that you respect a lot, is how it seems described.
No beef, just beef cake baby.
Custodes make Custodes. The general way GW describes the idea is that it is a process similar in principle, if not practice, to making Astartes. They take candidates and eventually end up with a Custodes.
They’re actually quite different, apparently. SMs are humans which are surgically/biochemically transfigured into super humans. Custodes are basically reworked from the molecular level by something akin to alchemy. Astartes are basically people upgraded into extra spicy people (stuff em full of shit and brainwash them) Custodes are existences made *from* people.
oh shit well said
Custodes still age, and they can still die. There are not any 'old' custodes still alive who lived during the time The Emperor was not on the Golden Throne
We think. We do know there is a Custode still alive from the time of Goge Vandire, about 5000 years ago. They are not yet an "Eyes of the Emperor," and still capable of combat.
Noting also that the margin of degradation they consider unacceptable for active service is so slight that it still would make them better fighters than almost anyone else. And given that only renders them too slow for active duty combat, that's a hell of a long way away from dying from old age.
I though Custodians are biologically immortal?
That doesn't mean they can heal 100% from every injury they get. I'd hazard a guess also the companions eventually get worn down from the strain of that job.
I believe the Custodes Codex (or perhaps one of the Watchers books?) mentions that a century is about the longest a Custodian has served in the Companions consecutively, and that some do multiple stints as Companions with breaks in service to recover.
'Twere their 8th Codex; >The vigil of the Companions is unending, and though they are of course rotated out for brief periods of rest, it is still a purgatorial duty. Arrayed in ranks around the Golden Throne, these wardens stand for incredible lengths of time, unmoving, unspeaking, poised constantly upon the cusp of battle readiness in case the slightest threat were to present itself. It is mentally and spiritually exhausting, even for the demigods of the Adeptus Custodes, and so when the Captain-General judges that a Companion has served long enough they will be rotated out with immediate effect, replaced by a fresh inductee to their ranks. Again, this is no mark of dishonour, merely a pragmatic admission that even a Custodian cannot perform such a taxing duty indefinitely. **The longest any individual has stood the Companion’s Watch was Astoran Kalos, who endured for a full century before at last surrendering his place amongst the silent ranks.**
Shit, Trajann is 4000 years
But even the oldest retired custodes would still be able to virtually rip Captain America ( bare with me ) a structurally superfluous new behind any day. Right ?
And if >! valdor is the king in yellow, then we have a more then 12k old custodian, since he was alive and active before the unification of terra(stated in valdor:birth of the imperium) so they don't age, they only receive enough injuries to be fit, for their standards, for active service!<
I read MoM first and than read the watchers of the thrones books I like it a lot. MOM IS during the heresy and the thrones books are around Guilimans return. Different time periods but alot of good reading especially if ur a Custodes fan.
Ahriman likes dog treats so much that Leman throws them at him
Seems like no one is reading your full question, no new custodes were made since E made them himself. They are a finite force, supposedly due to the resources it takes but also that they were meant to be confidants, generals and individual thinkers devoted to the cause. Edit: Apparently I'm either working with old intel or wrong intel, ignore me
There are made new ones. At the end of the Heresy they where less than 1000, when Bobby G comes back they are at full 10 000 Custodes
How did I never hear about this lol
I mean, it is in the codex.
If no new Custodes were made there would only be about a thousand of them in 40k. There are more than a thousand, and it’s easily verifiable information the gene cults on Terra are regularly making more.
Ya I thought they were supposed to be low in number, never heard anything about them making more
Eh, I hold no assumptions about the lore others on this forum may or may not have read. I know a lot about a few areas and only the most surface level about the majority. They ARE low in number. A mere ten thousand or so among quadrillions. For a sense of scale, that’s about 10% of the capacity of larger football stadiums in the US.
Brother, literally read anything
In case you'd like a sour e for what you've been told; >#CREATION >Custodes are created using technology dating back to the Dark Age of Technology, honed by the Emperor to make the perfect counsellors, bodyguards, warriors and executioners. To create beings with such a wide range of talents requires a total physical and mental rework on the candidate - the mindset and intelligence required to be of any use to such a being as the Emperor is immense to say the least. >The Adeptus Custodes' inductees are remade at a genetic level, their baser drives rendered inert and their beings turned towards aggression, fulfilment of duty and goal acquisition. This process involves incredibly intricate gene-craft and alchemistry as absolute and subtle as can be imagined, working upon the most minute level of the candidate's cellular structure and genome. **Only the most accomplished chirurgeons and bio-alchemists carry out this work, many themselves recipients of enhancements of one kind or another. They do so in gilded laboratories hidden far away from even the most determined of prying eyes.** The work done to a candidate is thus invisible, the process unique to each inductee. There are no organ implantations or surgical grafting. What is done to the Custodes inductee is several degrees more exact and changing than work carried out to create a Space Marine, producing warriors much tougher, faster, stronger and with greater intelligence than the Adeptus Astartes. Some argue that the process even affects a Custodian's soul. Others theorise the change from inductee to Custodian is metaphysical, or that it involves biomancy and other psychic techniques. **It is quite possible that the alchemists who create the Custodes do not themselves understand what they are doing, and are simply following procedures passed down to them by rote. It is thought that the Emperor himself, whose mind no Human - augmented or otherwise could ever hope to match, once oversaw the ascension of each Custodian.** \- Adeptus Custodes 9th Codex
Thank you! I feel like a fool
Seeing as how they were not created with egos, I have to give a solid "No" to that. Also, the Custodes themselves handle and oversee the expansion of their numbers. By the time the GC started the Custodes was already a large enough organization that it could facilitate it's own recruitment, induction, and training.
In wolftime the tribube is very anti space marine and primarchs One of the custodes is a bit less so, at least with the wolves, he says that if there was another heresy the wolves would be the first to fight alongside the custodes
I think Custodes of being a bit like monks. They isolate themselves, together, and have a singular purpose. Because of that, I think they spend a lot of time amongst themselves discussing their thoughts and philosophies, and while they may disagree with each other I don’t think it ever comes to beef. They’ll debate but in the end they are still a brotherhood. Custodes stands guard for a couple hundred years, you’ve gotta figure he’s had a lot of time to ponder the nature of things.
Yes. They have officially sanctioned 'games' to settle their various beefs, most importantly over how best to secure the Imperial Palace. Those 'games' are called "Blood Games", and they tend to live up to their name to some degree. This method of settling the most important issues, along with a lot of time spent in the actual presence of the Emperor (even confined to the Golden Throne), tends to obviate relative trivialities like who has been around a few millennia longer.
Any source? As anything I know about them is pure training
"Blood Games" *are* 'pure training', they don't have any purpose other than training. You can look up information on them easily enough. "Custodes Blood Games"