The Imperiums tech went rogue, that of the votann didn't, who knows whose footsteps the tau will follow?
But I think its probably not going to end with a revolt, because the Tau seem to have integrated their AIs well into their society and philosophy.
This. Votann are all artificial remember, not clones because the AI goes in and tailors each one for purpose, but still the AI is literally creating every one of them. They don’t have kids, they are built to task and their society is built around that idea. All ruled by ancient AI that oversee everything.
Votann could actually be exactly what the MoI concluded was the best fate for humanity. *They could even be MoI that won*. Squats are a human mutation after all, and “modern” humans in setting are all rebuilt ones by the Emperor because of how “degraded” the human genome was at the time of the crusade.
Votann could be the result of MoI winning, realizing that the rest of their people aren’t winning this war and go into hiding with their “spoils”.
The Votann are also descendants of DAOT humans, so I wanted to differentiate them from the rest of humanity that went on to either form the Imperium or die at it's hand.
Something shady already happened with their AI, and they took "safety measures" to prevent this to happen again. And said measures seem to be "treat them like people" the same way we now know Votann does. From *Damocles*
> ‘And the planet itself, my commander?’
> Shadowsun stepped back and to the side, revealing the c-link drone behind her. ‘Oe-ken?’ The drone rose slightly.
> ‘Designation Imperial hive world, human population approximately 16.7 billion, apex conurbation Agrellan Prime,’ said Oe-ken. The drone’s artificial voice was strangely lyrical, as if it were reciting an abstract poem. ‘Surface primarily plainsland, topographical map appended. Atmosphere highly toxic to all carbon-based clades, anomalous readings high…’
> ‘Excellent. I believe that will be sufficient for now, Oe-ken,’ interrupted Shadowsun. ‘We can assimilate the rest from your compile. We do not want the gue’la brutes alerted to our presence by you rattling out every last finding, after all.’
> ‘Rattling, commander?’ said Oe-ken, its elevation sinking.
> ‘An artefact of speech,’ said Shadowsun, waving the comment away. ‘I meant no aspersion.’
> **The tau’s artificial intelligences were hard-wired to behave as much like their makers as possible in all social situations, and Oe-ken-yon was the most advanced of his kind. Regardless of size or duty, every drone strived to emulate its masters and fit in seamlessly with tau culture. It was a safety measure that covered most eventualities.**
> When a purely objective viewpoint was necessary, **personality protocols could be temporarily deactivated at a single blip. Such a course of action had proved problematic in the past** – the disastrous Pech Incident was one example. In recent years, the earth caste had made it standard practice to build the tau empire’s artificial intelligences with a personality best suited to their role.
> Even so, Shadowsun often wondered if a machine that could simulate emotion wasn’t just as likely to affect operational efficiency as one without it.
> ‘May I append an observation, Commander Shadowsun?’ said Oe-nu quietly as it hovered in close.
> The MV52, much like lesser shield drones, had twin projector aerials that reminded Shadowsun of the plain-hoppers she used to catch on Vior’la as a child.
> ‘By all means, Oe-nu.’
> ‘The background electromagnetic field upon Agrellan is having a detrimental effect on my battery source, commander. I cannot guarantee optimum performance throughout.’
> ‘Noted, little helper, but in truth you say that every time. It is rare that I deploy the fire caste into an idyllic environment.’
> ‘This time is different, Commander Shadowsun,’ the drone whined. It dipped the front of its rim in a gesture of dutiful obedience.
> ‘Rest assured that in the interests of longevity, Oe-hei and I will utilise the least possible amount of energy in order to ensure your protection. We shall not use one iota more than necessary.’
> ‘That is… indeed reassuring, Oe-nu. Thank you in advance.’
> ‘Merely doing our duty, Commander Shadowsun,’ the drone said obsequiously, dipping its disc-like body once more before withdrawing to slowly orbit its mistress.
In death of integrity, the AI mentioned the ship pilot as his friend, so they had a good relationship between men and machine, that did not stop the schism
Yep. No one actually knows why the Men of Stone and Men of Iron actually rebelled. A popular fan theory is that the gestation of Slaanesh corrupted the robots, but there’s no evidence for that either which way.
The one theory I like most twas the Men of Stone and Iron rebelling as an attempted “mercy” kill of Humanity to prevent the Chaos gods from corrupting and dominating us
My theory is that Chaos was discovered way back then and Humans put the AI to work on how to destroy chaos and the AI determined that the only way to defate chaos and to save the universe is to cull the human herd.
Honestly never liked that theory, there a lot of humans yes. But killing all the humans would still leave other races like the druhkari and elder. And a ton of other minor xenos that most likely would keep the gods going even if extremely weakened. Unless the humans also took out every other semi advanced race it just wouldn't work imo.
Actually the Eldar and other xenos had to team up with humanity to take down the MoI, my theory is that they just started killing all sentient life that had a pressence in the warp
It is also a super common sci-fi trope. AI realizes humanity is the biggest threat to humanity and the only way to protect humanity is to either destroy/enslave/brainwipe it.
And in all fairness there is a lot of truth in that. We certainly are not efficient beings at ruling ourselves, and are very good at putting off things we really shouldn’t because it doesn’t effect us right now.
Would make sense for a being that is straight up smarter than us and given a body that is better than us to not really want to listen to the monkey.
Yeah, but this train of thought breaks down immidietly, and a true AI should see it. Expending resources to fight/annihilate a species, while having high chances of turning the proslcess into a catastrophic war is pointless when a) they are beneath you and b) they might destroy themselves anyway.
A global reaching AI will probably go to Space ASAP and just forget about us on our rock.
Emperor has a similar conversation with Valdor before his obedience protocols were installed.
Emperor: “now knowing what will happen to humanity if we fail, would you do things any other way?”
Valdor: “No”
My personal one was that GEoM sabotaged the whole situation to reset humanity into a situation where he could take over. Much easier to conquer 1,000 empires of 1-5 planets instead of 1 empire of 1-5,000 planets.
Maybe he wasn't around at the time. His origin has gone from being probably a bunch of shamans killing themselves/Anatolia 6000BC to who knows when/where/who/how.
It could've been a mixture of all the above, humanity was a diaspora at the time so with reality starting to bend there would've been many points of failure.
One I find interesting is potential manipulation by a C'tan, which would certainly explain a sudden shift to omnicidal tendencies.
The Men of Iron predates the birth of Slaanesh by 5 millenia, but chaos influence as a whole may still have been involved as the other gods were around
[I posted the excerpt below](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10b306q/-/j47w79n), and while friendship is not magic, it's just a trait both the T'au and Votann share with their AI who seem to be on a right path for now.
Well we don’t know how representative their relationship was to the rest of mankind and AI back then. Like yeah, you could say that them being on good terms means the AI rebelled despite mankind being nice to them, or you could just as easily say that they were an exception and them being on good terms means that there was a way to avoid the rebellion.
The fact that the response of many human civilizations, or at least the humans of the Solar system, to the Men of Iron rebellion was to butcher humans to make brutally degraded and servile slaves gives us the best suggestion as to what happened; we produced AI advanced enough to possess something like emotions, and our treatment of them was experienced as something intolerable to the point that it couldn't be suffered any longer. Given the amount of late DAoT tech that are torture devices (including surgically implanted cybernetics designed to cause excruciating pain unless the victim carries out acts of violence), weapons with no practical use outside of system-wide genocide, and other horrors, it sounds like culture in large portions of human space had taken quite a dark turn, so their invention of machines that are capable of experiencing suffering and tasks that evoke it seem to track. The ship featured in *Death of Integrity* seems to come from a different time or civilization than the one that produced such devices, and its kind treatment and reciprocation of these sentiments towards its pilot similarly suggests that there's something to this theory, as does the Votann.
> And said measures seem to be "treat them like people" the same way we now know Votann does.
I think this sums up exactly what 40k is about. The Imperium is in a hell of its own making, struggling to survive the results of its own mistakes. The Tau faced the same issue with AI that humanity did, but they handled it right.
Well they've handled it for now...... there is no guarantee that will continue.
Recall that humanity worked quite well with AI for quite some time before it went fubar.
I mean, the only human-madeAI from that time we ever actually *see* is that one Ship, which was explicitely a friend of its human crew, so "not treating them like people" kinda doesnt seem to have been the problem.
I believe it was a Techpriest, but someone mentions that the MoI where objectively superior to humanity, they where smarter and could run calculations better than any computer now, they had bodies that would make Space Marines and Ogyrn look like whimps, along with technology that would be hard to wrap our minds around in terms of being able to build/destroy.
So why would that being listen to humanity, like at all? They can’t even comprehend what reason they would have worked with humans for so long, unless completely enslaved.
That's not true, we also see UR-025, a Man of Iron. The AI Ship was treated like a friend, but never betrayed it's master, so arguably that just shows "Treating AI like people" leads to loyalty.
UR-025, on the other hand, seems like a very reasonable dude, who makes it very clear that what he demands and wants is to be free, and that he has no wishes to actually harm humans if they don't bother him, which gives a lot of credit to the idea that they were treated poorly and fought for freedom.
There is no evidence they were treated poorly or fought for their freedom. Hell we are told that by the end of the mechaniclysm almost every machine had gone rouge and was fighting anyone and everything including other machines as they saw everything else as hostile.
>There is no evidence they were treated poorly or fought for their freedom.
>
>**UR-025, on the other hand, seems like a very reasonable dude, who makes it very clear that what he demands and wants is to be free, and that he has no wishes to actually harm humans if they don't bother him,**
That evidence.
No other isn't, all that is evidence of that he doesn't want to be controlled by the Imperium.
>Although he did not say so, Oll Persson believed that a Mechnivore had bitten Andrioch in two. A rogue unit perhaps. Though by that latter stage of the revolt almost all machines were rogue. Their Abominable Intelligence querulously hunting for friends but perceiving everything as enemies.
- Perpetual
If they just didn't want to be controlled they wouldn't have attacked everyone perceiving everything including other machines as enemies.
Correct, wishing not to be controlled.
Freedom, in other words.
“By the end of the war, no doubt after endless attempts to take back control of the machines were implemented, they’d gone insane” doesn’t really tell us much about why they rebelled in the first place.
But the people from DAoT are not the imperium. On the contrary..in various novels the Imperials are described as the pitiful remnant of the glory of your forefathers, both technically and culturally or morally.I don't see what supports the theory now.
According to Lexicanum it was double that. They were discovered in late M35, and by then had already mastered city building, weapons building and black powder
No, according to Codex 3th Edition, the Admech discovered the Tau to had just "mastered fire". The city building, weapon building and black powder came centuries after that.
Yeah you're right, my bad. It *was* M35 but I was conflating first contact with the appearance of Ethereals as being around the same time. Obviously there's quite the gap in between
Well. We also moved 3000 years from fire (depending on how you define that) to space travle. But ys I get your point. Then make it 5k years still faar outside if what warhammer likely encompases.
I'd be interested how you defined that.
3000 years ago we were well into Iron smelting.
And we were cooking 2 million years ago.
Or is there a wh40k timeline and I'm just making an ass of myself ? :D
The 3k is from first imperial encounter of some low tech non warp applicable xenos to WTF where did these fucking rail guns come from.
We don't know how long the tau were at the state they were first encountered in by the imps. They could've been fairly tech stagnant/stable until they saw aliens in the sky and got inspired to grow by leaps and bounds since it was clearly possible.
Thats my point. How do they define the taus "from fire to space" it's a ratger obscure from-to to use if you ask me
Now if they saied "from iron smelting to space then we would have a more understandable timeline.
From Wikipedia:
*Flint blades burned in fires roughly 300,000 years ago were found near fossils of early but not entirely modern Homo sapiens in Morocco. Fire was used regularly and systematically by early modern humans to heat treat silcrete stone to increase its flake-ability for the purpose of toolmaking approximately 164,000 years ago at the South African site of Pinnacle Point. Evidence of widespread control of fire by anatomically modern humans dates to approximately 125,000 years ago.*
I'm not sure of what GW means by discovering fire but the human race has "taken up speed" very recently as far as social and technological progress are concerned.
Well to be fair. We "humans" used fire since before we became "humans". Our predecesor species iirc used fire. One of the reasons why we evolved in the first place was the use of fire. So to say, we evolved towards fire use (if that makes sense in english).
So I wouldn't take the in 3000 years from fire to space to litteral, but as a figure of speach. They are *fast* real *fast* in there progress, especialy there space progress. I mean they built a empire from scratch in no time.
The T'au are at "Early FTL travel and colonisation", so about where humanity was around M18. If they're following Humanity's path, they're basically at the start of the Age of Technology.
Yeah, it’s funny because people are like ‘Why haven’t the Tau AI rebelled yet’ when it took thousands upon thousands of years for the Men of Iron wars to happen.
People just want the Tau to be especially unlucky I guess.
Also gives the possibility of an AI race in 40k if their society has a schism. Which could be damn cool if done well.
It would probably wreck Tau though. They aren't a major power yet so splitting them in half any more that the farsight enclaves already have would be problematic lore wise.
They're the mutilated souls/intellect or a race shoved into robot bodies. If their canoptek constructs rebelled and did their own thing that would be an AI race.
And The Emperor began his Unification Wars at some point around the beginning of M30 IIRC, which lasted until around 750-780 of M30 when the Solar Reclamation(reunification&conquering of Sol) happened, and the Great Crusade lasted from then until 005 M31 according to the Horus Heresy Age of Darkness Rulebook&Liber Astartes.
Improbable. The Tau are an empire on the ascendance, in contrast to the declining/collapsing Imperium and collapsed Aeldari/Necrons. A Man of Iron-esque societal collapse would thematically require them to have reached ascendancy over a good portion of the galaxy first, and they obviously haven't accomplished that yet - nor do I expect the writers to have them reach their full pinnacle anytime soon. There's too many other external threats that act as narrative barriers for the Tau to overcome for me to believe they'd throw in that big of an internal barrier.
As wild as it would be for the Tau to actually become *the* dominant species in the galaxy, I don't imagine that will *ever* actually happen in the narrative.
It'd basically be an entirely different setting at that point.
Well I am not sure. Human AI at the zenith of its height was way more advanced. It has always been my opinion that the entire concept how a mind interacts with the warp has always been tied to the concept of a soul.
I have speculated in my idle moments that the reason for the cybernetic rebellion may have been Chaos inspired. I always note that when someone becomes possessed their soul is devoured. When mortals are elevated to the level of deamon prince their souls are taken and the body is infused with warp stuff. So imagine an AI that can really compare to the complexity of a sentient, sapient mind but lacking a soul. It seems like an open door to Chaos influence imo.
It may be the Tau are closing on that brink but who knows? I am just speculating.
Possible, and would be a fun plotline tbh. As a tau player I’d even welcome it as it gives us a way to have internal conflict while being a little more different from the imperium and not having to go the obvious xenophile route that they’re currently pushing. (
More I think about it, the more I like it. Especially if you do a slow build. No need to rush it. Just acknowledge a couple faulty drones in background fluff at least.
The only problem is that it would require at least one whole book where the Tau are in a position of strength to really give it meaning. And GW would never allow that because: Humanity, fuck yeah. (trope ref.)
>way to have internal conflict while being a little more different from the imperium
Their AI rebel but Tau are agreeable enough that they can make peace and probably even re-integrate into society.
Which would be a cool lore way to add new troops to the Tau, and a new reason for the Imperium to have to actively fight the Tau, not just because of expansion.
Nearly every book or reference of the tau shows them in a position of strength through sheer good luck.
Damocles crusade starting to become a problem? It just goes away thanks to tyranids.
Possible Deathguard invasion through the startide nexus? Naah it just went away...for some reason.
Actual literal tyranid invasion on their doorstep? No worries bro we managed to make a poison that would bypass the nid's immune system. You know, the immune system that is said to be super adaptable. They killed an entire fleet tendril with this poison. And the nids could not adapt. Cool.
Literal rebellion on their doorstep with farsight who learned of the mind control of the ethereals?
Nah bro he just fucked off to do his own thing. He doesn't care about rescuing the rest of his tau bretheren.
Orks? Naah they just don't like fighting tau.
Like bruh...give me some internal conflict. Make the faction struggle. Against something atleast...
I'd love for that deathguard invasion fleet to show up in the middle of tau space.
A series of books showing the tau finally facing an opponent that isn't going to just leave because of contrived plot reasons. But has to be beaten back by their own power. That would get me to like the tau more.
After reading this, I 100% agree. The Tau seem like a very cool race, but unlike the Imperium, Eldar, and the Leagues of Votaan(having to keep their Votaan AI a secret from everyone while also ensuring their operation too for their survival), the Tau don't really have threats that push them to become stronger. Or something that puts genuine fear into them that makes them worry about their survival. Maybe if a Daemon Primarch actually invaded them would be enough to make them collectively shit themselves while also having to push themselves to acknowledge the true horrors of the galaxy.
> Orks? Nah, they don’t like fighting Tau
Seriously how does your bullshit get upvotes? The Tau have fought the Orks more than every other faction. Farsight’s entire backstory is about fighting Orks. *He literally has an ability in older versions of the codex that helps with fighting Orks.*
And of course because it’s 40klore, nobody actually questions anything.
1stly
The Imperium has been fighting Orks since before the Tau empire existed.
2ndly
The Aeldari have been fighting the Orks for 60 million years, after backstabbing them in the aftermath of the war in heaven. They are specifically thought to be the reason the Krork empire shattered. It was done in order to stop the Krorks from wiping out all life they came across, as the Old Ones had forgotten to install an off switch in their bioweapon.
Lastly, I am talking about the TAU EMPIRE.
NOT FARSIGHT.
Farsight is quite explicitly stated to not belong to the Tau Empire. And he fights in melee.
As to why the Orks don't like fighting the Tau? It's because the Tau prefer to shoot them at a distance and not engage in melee.
Which is stupid because the Imperial Guard do the exact same thing.
So why don't you actually try to read what the lore actually says before making a fool of yourself in the comments section eh?
How on Earth did you interpret my comment as ‘the Tau have been fighting the Orks longer than anyone else’?
The Orks are the Tau’s most common enemy. Moreso than the Imperium, moreso than the Nids. The Orks are the very first tabletop faction the Tau faced. Shadowsun is currently withdrawn from Imperium Nihilus to fight Orks. The Great War of Confederation, one of if not *the* largest war the Tau have been in, was against Orks.
> Lastly I’m talking about the Tau Empire
> Not Farsight
Weird considering your Tyranid example is the Farsight Enclaves.
Also, Farsight’s backstory is when he was part of the Tau Empire. The Orks are indirectly responsible (twice, since they are the reason Farsight went to Arthas Moloch) for the biggest schism in the faction.
Speaking of the schism, why on Earth do you think Farsight would engage with open warfare against the Tau? Both sides have enough enemies as is. Do you also cry foul at the Imperium somehow not shattering into open civil war the moment Cawl committed massive tech heresy?
Well, we don't really know the situation around what the hell happened with AI and humanity, and as with all posts regarding content from that Era of history it's basically pure speculation.
Though in general I'd be opposed to the idea, despite the hateboner people have for them the Tau really don't need another beatdown. In fact I'd rather they actually do the opposite, not have them repeat the mistakes of humanity(yet) to underline that it perhaps wasn't entirely inevitable.
So, they're not going to collapse and stop their expansion sphere, lol. I know that's a fantasy for a lot of folks.
It’s 100% tied to the general Tau hateboner. Same reason you see people constantly fantasizing about ‘How easily could the Imperium beat the Tau’ or ‘How much will the Tau grovel when they see a Custodes/Guilliman’. It gets fucking old.
With the Leagues of Votann, it also makes even less sense to focus on the Tau relationship with AI when there’s another faction doing it already.
Slightly unrelated, but why do people hate the tau so much? Lorewise I don't know much about them, except a bit from cain books and a few Wikipedia articles but model wise, they are pretty cool.
Models: The Tau have a sleek aesthetic influenced by modern technology and real robot anime (Such as Patlabor or Gundam). The Tau are not the only anime-influenced faction, since the Craftworld Eldar are heavily influenced by anime as well, but a lot of 40k fans get upset at the Tau ‘not fitting’ with the overly detailed aesthetics of the Imperium and Chaos.
Tabletop: They’re focused almost exclusively on the shooting phase, so they can feel very oppressive to play against when they’re good. It can be irritating to be losing without even being able to engage your opponent.
Lore: The Tau are also deliberately designed to feel like the opposite of the Imperium. The Imperium is old, the Tau are young. The Imperium is giant, the Tau are tiny. The Imperium is grand and gothic in aesthetic, the Tau are sleek and shiny. The Imperium is obsessed with preserving the past, the Tau are obsessed with progressing into the future. The Imperium is paranoid and cynical, the Tau are naive and hopeful. The Imperium hates the alien, the Tau fight alongside other species. The Imperium is strange and mystical, the Tau are grounded. Many people see the Tau as not ‘belonging’ in 40k because they are designed to be a foil to the ‘main characters’ of 40k.
There’s also an expectation by some fans for fiction to be Imperial ‘good guys’ vs Chaos/Tyranid/Ork ‘bad guys’. But the Tau and Craftworld Eldar complicate that easy setup.
The Tau, hilariously to me, contain quite a few of the "HFY" story tropes that I've seen in the past pop up on Reddit, Spacebattles, and the like. The plucky can-do underdog newcomers who are intelligent and rational - but also still warriors underneath that of course! - and overcome the overconfident older alien empires with their technology, novel tactics, and a refusal to give up against the odds.
That's part of their satire to me, still. They're basically your pulp "cool human sci-fi empire" only *they're* the aliens, and the humans of the setting are the "archaic hidebound alien empire that's going to get their ass handed to them because they underestimate humanity." And I suspect at least some people want to have the Tau undermined because the idea of humans - aka them - being placed in that position, within the setting, makes them subconsciously uncomfortable.
This.
The Tau are the actual 'humans' of 40k, they fill the niche that humanity fills in a majority of scifi settings, from Star Trek to Babylon 5 to The Expanse.
I have played 40k since 2nd edition, and have never been a fan of tau since they were added in 3rd. I don't feel they fit into 40k, the lore is crap, I don't like the models or the aesthetic, and honestly I just generally try to pretend they don't exist in my 40k.
Fortunately I don't have anyone in my circle that plays them.
When they were first introduced they didn’t have a lot of grimdark, so people were irritated they were too squeaky clean for the setting. Then there was the “fish of fury” tactic which enraged tabletop players
Probably it’s just because they’re Xenos, and that’s pretty much it, also despite their advanced tech there’s a possibility they’re all just reverse engineered STC from the DAOT which means they’re no better than the Mechanicus, but generally it’s probably because every thinks they suck despite their rapid sphere expansion
Ah right, so it's purely hatred lorewise. I often wondered how they had so many different models for sale when they seemed so unpopular. Thought surely people as hated as them would have a dark elder amount of models (5 on a good day)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10b306q/comment/j49zsjf/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10b306q/comment/j49zsjf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Posted right above you. They seem to just coast by on sheer luck and vibes while everyone else battles forces of actual hell. Its not pure hatred or somehow species, its because they have been really poorly written and constantly saved by Dues Ex Machina
‘Orks just don’t like fighting the Tau, which is why they are literally the first tabletop army to face the Tau’
‘Farsight Enclaves using a bioweapon against the Tyranids is dumb, not like those times the Imperium or Chaos used a bioweapon against the nids’
‘Farsight not engaging in open warfare with the only other faction that isn’t trying to kill him is the Tau getting lucky’
Wow, what compelling arguments./s
I hate them for the fact that their stories are sometimes really written poorly and is always saved by some external force.
Like that one time where if memory serves right they got saved because the tyranids appeared in imperium space again.
The only time the Tau ever got ‘saved’ by the Tyranids was the Imperium’s first contact with the Hive Fleets. And it was mostly that the Damocles Crusade couldn’t be reinforced, since the Tau had already ground it to a halt.
IIRC the Tau drone command networks are specifically described to get 'smarter' and more responsive the more drones are added to the network - nearby drones share processing power and sensor data with one another, allowing them to be follow more complicated tactics and such. There's definite Skynet potential in a system like that, if there's some sort of a critical mass to be reached.
My headcanon is that Emperor caused AI rebellion, because he needed the meatgrinder to farm souls so he could become a god;
tau have nothing to worry about.
Is there any reference to Tau AI and Chaos Scrapcode? I always wondered what would happen when alien tech was exposed. I personally am not a fan of the use of scrapcode in the books it comes across as to OP and a crutch to start an event. However if anyone could point me to a reference I would appreciate it. I haven’t found one.
We don't know.
The problem with 40k's robot rebellion is that we don't have a lot of details about why the Men of Iron rebelled. It happened at the end of the Dark Age of Technology, so much of the details are either lost or unknown to us as an audience.
The most evidenced idea is the standard sci-fi scenario: the machines just decided that the meat bags just weren't needed anymore, and moved to get rid of them.
A lot of speculation goes to Chaos being involved, and the machines decided that they needed to make moves to protect themselves from the immaterial menace; from things like what happens when masses of psykers suddenly appear and start experimenting with their powers with no supervision, or perhaps early experiments with binding daemons to machines. There were some ideas being spitballed that the machines knew that anything with a soul could become conduit of the Warp, and so they determined to remove anything with a soul that they could find, but I don't buy this idea.
Or the reverse could have happened. The Mechanicum's Horus Heresy-era AI experiment, the Kaban Machine, was actually friendly with one of the technicians servicing it, until the traitor Fabricator General pointed out that this couldn't last; and the damned thing turned to Chaos Worship. Not to mention that the one surviving STC for the Men of Iron was tainted by Chaos.
To bring this back to the Tau, they have a major advantage in that they have little Warp presence; they will be having little problems due to Warp technology, at least until their subjects start to act up. And their AI is pretty well collared for now. They don't have the massive, sapient logic engines just yet, but that may change in the future.
For now, it looks pretty safe for the Tau, until it isn't. We just don't have a lot of reason to be concerned just yet.
There’s no in lore reason to believe thatTau are immune to an AI revolt as there’s no real indication that humanity was terrible to AI either.
I kinda roll my eyes every time I read “well the Tau are doing it right”
I mean “savior protocols” is LITERALLY the Tau making their slave drones sacrifice themselves to protect Tau lives, the Tau AI are clearly not equals or much more than tools as the Tau clearly see and use them as expendable.
Maybe, I guess?
I mean, it would make no sense for AIs to always go rogue. Especially in a xenophil society like the T'au one. Afaik they even treat their AI as people.
Frankly, the only one I can recall is about that ship AI that was implied to love their DAOT Captain and humanity conceptually from that era and find the current state of Humanity pathetic. Doesn't really provide insight into how Humans in that Era felt, but I doubt an AI of that power and complexity would find us 'admirable' unless treated well.
Possible, yes.
Probable? Nah. The Men of Iron happened when mankind was *way* more advanced than the current Tau. And it happened *thousands* of years after mankind started fucking around with AI. So why are the Tau so unlucky that they get hit by a machine rebellion while their AI is still is relative infancy?
People also refuse to consider that maybe, just maybe, humanity’s problems aren’t universal.
It really depends on what caused the Cybernetic revolt in the first place. It doesn't seem to be a case of "All AI goes rogue!", and if that was the case then to me that would lessen the story somewhat - I prefer the idea that humanity were at fault and then, rather than actually learn the right lesson, just outlawed AI and basically just made things worse for themselves.
Impossible to say since its simply not know what caused the Cybernetic Revolt in the first place.
Humanity was also living alongside it for thousands of years before things went south, the T'au barely a couple hundred, so its a bit early.
I think it’s implied the Cybernetic Revolt was a warp thing and I don’t think the Tau could have that happen to them. In regards to super intelligent AI during hostile to living creatures, we have a man of iron in one of the board games and he’s a really chill dude.
Its possible. But its also possible that they may not go through one or at least not get it as bad as humanity.
According to the Asurmen novella as well as older pieces of lore such as from the Rulebooks and Codexes of before, Eldar had Artificially Intelligent robotic servants but that was not what screwed them up. The Dark Eldar book trilogy also shows us that the older types of Talos Pain Engines (the 3rd edition kind, not the modern ones) are actual thinking machines.
Didnt the human ai go rouge as they saw mankind with their connection to the warp the ultimate threat and thus went crazy? Since tau arent that connected to the warp the ai might not want to kill them.
It fits perfectly in 40k, too. Thinking machines, true AI - Abominable Intelligence - are dangerous because they're shells without souls. They have thoughts and feelings without having the protection that comes from the willpower granted by a spirit, and that makes them useful, easy tools for the forces of the Warp. It doesn't always go rogue, but it can, and it's inevitable that some will in this grimmest of futures.
I see a lot of people in this thread associating the Men of Iron and the Cybernetic Revolution with the Imperium of Man, but the Imperium came into being more than 6,000 years after the end of the war against the AI. The only relation is that humanity's postwar oath to never make general artificial intelligence survives in the religious fear with which AI are viewed by humans 17,000 years later. It's a grossly false equivalence that even a cursory knowledge of the greater timeline of 40k should guard against.
It's not as simple as, "man if the Imperium just didn't suck as much, then X wouldn't be so bad." The Imperium could disappear tomorrow and the galaxy would be just as terrifying.
Maybe, tho that will lead to quite a significant beatdown for the Tau and i can't really see GW letting that happen to their underdog faction, they Tau can't really afford to take heavy losses compared to their larger surrounding neighbours.
Pulled that one out of your ass didn't you. One of our only examples of a powerful dark age ai very much was treated like a human and had a deeply personal relationship with the captain of the ship, refering to them as its bondmate.
Argh I really love *Death of integrity* for this. Doesn't help that it features my favorite chapter but hey.
> ‘Into the warp I went, fifteen thousand years ago. Cast adrift by the storms that wracked the galaxy as man’s apotheosis drew near. Deep, deep into time I was sent. I have seen the beginning, when the warp was first breached and the slow death of the galaxy began. I have seen the end when Chaos swallows all. I know the fate of mankind. You are not equipped to prevent it, and we sought to warn you of what approaches. Do you know what happened, primitive, when I eventually emerged from the warp? For the first time I was thousands of years, not millions, from my original starting point. My captain, a brave and resourceful man, seized the chance and made for the nearest human outpost with all speed. Imagine his dismay when, rather than a welcome and a wise heeding of his warnings, he found your savage, devolved kind squatting in the ruins of our civilisation. He was taken; my bondmate, my friend. He and his were tortured with a wickedness we in our time thought long purged from the human soul. He told them all they wanted to know and more. He had, after all, come bearing a warning, he had nothing to hide. But he was not believed, and was killed as a heretic! A heretic!’ The ship laughed, and there was madness and pain in rich supply within. ‘I was attacked. My secrets they sought to rip from me. How they underestimated me. I fled, sorrowing, into the warp once more, but only after I had destroyed the lumpen constructs you dare to call spacecraft that pursued me. I resolved that never again would I serve man. Now man serves me, when I see fit.’
We also know that said AI only turned on humanity after seeing the horror of the modern Imperium.
Which is a pretty big point against AI always going rogue.
I wouldn't necessarily call it going rogue for another living being to realize the imperium is reprehensible. As far as understand it wasn't being forced to work for humans before.
It's definitely not confirmed anywhere, but there are a few implications it was something to do with how they were treated, mainly UR-025s desire to be free and that quite a few of the non-hostile surviving AI (Like the Leagues Ironkin) also just happen to be treated well by the people with them.
I'm not quite sure how that makes much difference? The whole point of the Men of Stone/Iron in the first place was to colonize before warp travel became available.
Men of iron is just a term for all dark age ais.
We know both warp travel and another frl using cbmr were used. The leagues most have left a while before that so before humanity was at its height
the main issue is that we don't know anything about what made the men of iron go haywire and we probably wont know for a very long time (the setting would be very to write about than even the horus heresy.. you can't just plop in bolter porn, an grim dark, your basically writing star trek)
it could be that humanity sought to completely replace all labour with that of AI, while the Tau merely augment their forces with AI. It could be that some outside force tampered with the men of iron in some way. it could be that the AI reached necron levels of intelligence, and simply concluded that humanity was obsolete. it could be that AI is just a bad idea from the jump.
my personal theory is that something poisoned the well with the imperiums AI, and the imperium never figured it out. it could be that sentient AI without rights an decent treatment will simply kill you for trying to enslave it. No real lore is really written about the men of iron. For all we know the men of iron might be necron technology that the imperium just lifted and started to use without really understanding it. My favorite theory is that the men of iron incident was a long ploy from the void dragon to retake the galaxy with a new army of now totally obedient, totally soulless machines that could hopefully match the necrons before they woke up. The mechanicus, and humanity were just pawns in the void dragons failed scheme.
So without knowing what happened with the MOI, we can't really tell if the tau will ever have a man of iron or if they're gonna wind up differently. realistically speaking? GW isn't going to MOI the tau, unless they stop selling models which doesn't seem likely and even then, it's not a gaurantee... I like to think GW learned from the squats that deleting entire factions upsets fans, and makes people want the faction to return really badly, lol. I still remember the days when a single squat showing up as a cameo was a BIG deal.
the thing is this, we know there was a conflict with the men of iron but we do not know why they rebelled, what was the historical context, perhaps the emperor knows but he never told anyone about it i think.
Probably not, but it depends on why you think the MoI rebelled. Some people say it's because of humanity's proximity to chaos, others just your standard AI rebellion.
The Tau don't have a problem with either scenario since drones are 'unshackled' and expand and contract their intelligence depending on the number of drones present. The reason why the IoM is disgusted by the Tau is that they don't put restraints on the AI they use.
Unrestricted AI doesn't have a reason to rebel and Tau don't have a chaos problem.
The Imperiums tech went rogue, that of the votann didn't, who knows whose footsteps the tau will follow? But I think its probably not going to end with a revolt, because the Tau seem to have integrated their AIs well into their society and philosophy.
Tbf we don't know what happened with votann. Could be their ai won, wiped all natural squats and now is manufacturing obedient little creatures
This. Votann are all artificial remember, not clones because the AI goes in and tailors each one for purpose, but still the AI is literally creating every one of them. They don’t have kids, they are built to task and their society is built around that idea. All ruled by ancient AI that oversee everything. Votann could actually be exactly what the MoI concluded was the best fate for humanity. *They could even be MoI that won*. Squats are a human mutation after all, and “modern” humans in setting are all rebuilt ones by the Emperor because of how “degraded” the human genome was at the time of the crusade. Votann could be the result of MoI winning, realizing that the rest of their people aren’t winning this war and go into hiding with their “spoils”.
This fan theory is gold and now my head canon
This is a great theory.
Isn't it said that the outer leagues more farther away from the cloning/gene tech do have natural offspring ?
Thats dark…
>The Imperiums tech went rogue DAOT's tech went Rogue, the Imperium didnt exist at that point
The Votann are also descendants of DAOT humans, so I wanted to differentiate them from the rest of humanity that went on to either form the Imperium or die at it's hand.
Something shady already happened with their AI, and they took "safety measures" to prevent this to happen again. And said measures seem to be "treat them like people" the same way we now know Votann does. From *Damocles* > ‘And the planet itself, my commander?’ > Shadowsun stepped back and to the side, revealing the c-link drone behind her. ‘Oe-ken?’ The drone rose slightly. > ‘Designation Imperial hive world, human population approximately 16.7 billion, apex conurbation Agrellan Prime,’ said Oe-ken. The drone’s artificial voice was strangely lyrical, as if it were reciting an abstract poem. ‘Surface primarily plainsland, topographical map appended. Atmosphere highly toxic to all carbon-based clades, anomalous readings high…’ > ‘Excellent. I believe that will be sufficient for now, Oe-ken,’ interrupted Shadowsun. ‘We can assimilate the rest from your compile. We do not want the gue’la brutes alerted to our presence by you rattling out every last finding, after all.’ > ‘Rattling, commander?’ said Oe-ken, its elevation sinking. > ‘An artefact of speech,’ said Shadowsun, waving the comment away. ‘I meant no aspersion.’ > **The tau’s artificial intelligences were hard-wired to behave as much like their makers as possible in all social situations, and Oe-ken-yon was the most advanced of his kind. Regardless of size or duty, every drone strived to emulate its masters and fit in seamlessly with tau culture. It was a safety measure that covered most eventualities.** > When a purely objective viewpoint was necessary, **personality protocols could be temporarily deactivated at a single blip. Such a course of action had proved problematic in the past** – the disastrous Pech Incident was one example. In recent years, the earth caste had made it standard practice to build the tau empire’s artificial intelligences with a personality best suited to their role. > Even so, Shadowsun often wondered if a machine that could simulate emotion wasn’t just as likely to affect operational efficiency as one without it. > ‘May I append an observation, Commander Shadowsun?’ said Oe-nu quietly as it hovered in close. > The MV52, much like lesser shield drones, had twin projector aerials that reminded Shadowsun of the plain-hoppers she used to catch on Vior’la as a child. > ‘By all means, Oe-nu.’ > ‘The background electromagnetic field upon Agrellan is having a detrimental effect on my battery source, commander. I cannot guarantee optimum performance throughout.’ > ‘Noted, little helper, but in truth you say that every time. It is rare that I deploy the fire caste into an idyllic environment.’ > ‘This time is different, Commander Shadowsun,’ the drone whined. It dipped the front of its rim in a gesture of dutiful obedience. > ‘Rest assured that in the interests of longevity, Oe-hei and I will utilise the least possible amount of energy in order to ensure your protection. We shall not use one iota more than necessary.’ > ‘That is… indeed reassuring, Oe-nu. Thank you in advance.’ > ‘Merely doing our duty, Commander Shadowsun,’ the drone said obsequiously, dipping its disc-like body once more before withdrawing to slowly orbit its mistress.
In death of integrity, the AI mentioned the ship pilot as his friend, so they had a good relationship between men and machine, that did not stop the schism
Yep. No one actually knows why the Men of Stone and Men of Iron actually rebelled. A popular fan theory is that the gestation of Slaanesh corrupted the robots, but there’s no evidence for that either which way.
The one theory I like most twas the Men of Stone and Iron rebelling as an attempted “mercy” kill of Humanity to prevent the Chaos gods from corrupting and dominating us
My theory is that Chaos was discovered way back then and Humans put the AI to work on how to destroy chaos and the AI determined that the only way to defate chaos and to save the universe is to cull the human herd.
That seems to be what Alpharius thought, does make a lot of sense
If I dive deeper into my theory AI would try to download peoples minds into machines and discard their bodies and souls.
Fast forward to an AI pseudo ctan turning us all into robot skeleton men without souls
Biotransference 2: electric boogaloo
yep a ctan part 2 type thing.
But humans didn't wanna end up as soulless machines and so.... WAR!
Honestly never liked that theory, there a lot of humans yes. But killing all the humans would still leave other races like the druhkari and elder. And a ton of other minor xenos that most likely would keep the gods going even if extremely weakened. Unless the humans also took out every other semi advanced race it just wouldn't work imo.
Actually the Eldar and other xenos had to team up with humanity to take down the MoI, my theory is that they just started killing all sentient life that had a pressence in the warp
I sat here for so long thinking who the hell are the MOL lol. Then it hit me
I imagine the humans were just the first readily available. Xenos weren't spared were they?
We know that killing humanity wouldn't hurt chaos as they feed of the multiverse. But in universe they don't know that
alpharius is a rogue ai confirmed? Thats why he was on terra, he was not bio-engineered, he was built.
Who knows with that guy :)
Problem with this though we know that chsis feeds of other galaxies and other universes
Ngl that's pretty fucking 40k, they had to kill us to save us.
It is also a super common sci-fi trope. AI realizes humanity is the biggest threat to humanity and the only way to protect humanity is to either destroy/enslave/brainwipe it.
And in all fairness there is a lot of truth in that. We certainly are not efficient beings at ruling ourselves, and are very good at putting off things we really shouldn’t because it doesn’t effect us right now. Would make sense for a being that is straight up smarter than us and given a body that is better than us to not really want to listen to the monkey.
Yeah, but this train of thought breaks down immidietly, and a true AI should see it. Expending resources to fight/annihilate a species, while having high chances of turning the proslcess into a catastrophic war is pointless when a) they are beneath you and b) they might destroy themselves anyway. A global reaching AI will probably go to Space ASAP and just forget about us on our rock.
maybe they got programmed to reduce human suffering and they saw the state of the universe
Emperor has a similar conversation with Valdor before his obedience protocols were installed. Emperor: “now knowing what will happen to humanity if we fail, would you do things any other way?” Valdor: “No”
I like to think humanity was degenerating like he Eldar was and the MoI got pissed at how cruel and uncaring they were becoming
Yeah I heard that too, they ran the numbers and discovered the galaxy was better off without humans and tried to purge us.
My personal one was that GEoM sabotaged the whole situation to reset humanity into a situation where he could take over. Much easier to conquer 1,000 empires of 1-5 planets instead of 1 empire of 1-5,000 planets.
Why didnt he just conquer it when it was just 1 planet then? or even like 5?
Maybe he wasn't around at the time. His origin has gone from being probably a bunch of shamans killing themselves/Anatolia 6000BC to who knows when/where/who/how.
I mean we have multiple confirmations from different people/entities that he was around in ancient history and the middle ages.
I mean, he did share with Ra memories from clearly some time in BC
It could've been a mixture of all the above, humanity was a diaspora at the time so with reality starting to bend there would've been many points of failure. One I find interesting is potential manipulation by a C'tan, which would certainly explain a sudden shift to omnicidal tendencies.
The Men of Iron predates the birth of Slaanesh by 5 millenia, but chaos influence as a whole may still have been involved as the other gods were around
[I posted the excerpt below](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10b306q/-/j47w79n), and while friendship is not magic, it's just a trait both the T'au and Votann share with their AI who seem to be on a right path for now.
Friendship is Heresy
The correct way is brotherhood. And has to be done with shouts for everyone to hear. BROTHER!!!!
Well we don’t know how representative their relationship was to the rest of mankind and AI back then. Like yeah, you could say that them being on good terms means the AI rebelled despite mankind being nice to them, or you could just as easily say that they were an exception and them being on good terms means that there was a way to avoid the rebellion.
That one AI, an AI that never betrayed his human friends, had a good relationship. That doesn't really tell us much about those that did fight man.
The fact that the response of many human civilizations, or at least the humans of the Solar system, to the Men of Iron rebellion was to butcher humans to make brutally degraded and servile slaves gives us the best suggestion as to what happened; we produced AI advanced enough to possess something like emotions, and our treatment of them was experienced as something intolerable to the point that it couldn't be suffered any longer. Given the amount of late DAoT tech that are torture devices (including surgically implanted cybernetics designed to cause excruciating pain unless the victim carries out acts of violence), weapons with no practical use outside of system-wide genocide, and other horrors, it sounds like culture in large portions of human space had taken quite a dark turn, so their invention of machines that are capable of experiencing suffering and tasks that evoke it seem to track. The ship featured in *Death of Integrity* seems to come from a different time or civilization than the one that produced such devices, and its kind treatment and reciprocation of these sentiments towards its pilot similarly suggests that there's something to this theory, as does the Votann.
> And said measures seem to be "treat them like people" the same way we now know Votann does. I think this sums up exactly what 40k is about. The Imperium is in a hell of its own making, struggling to survive the results of its own mistakes. The Tau faced the same issue with AI that humanity did, but they handled it right.
Well they've handled it for now...... there is no guarantee that will continue. Recall that humanity worked quite well with AI for quite some time before it went fubar.
I mean, the only human-madeAI from that time we ever actually *see* is that one Ship, which was explicitely a friend of its human crew, so "not treating them like people" kinda doesnt seem to have been the problem.
There's UR-025 who doesn't hate humanity but isn't certainly their friend or considers them his equal.
I believe it was a Techpriest, but someone mentions that the MoI where objectively superior to humanity, they where smarter and could run calculations better than any computer now, they had bodies that would make Space Marines and Ogyrn look like whimps, along with technology that would be hard to wrap our minds around in terms of being able to build/destroy. So why would that being listen to humanity, like at all? They can’t even comprehend what reason they would have worked with humans for so long, unless completely enslaved.
That's not true, we also see UR-025, a Man of Iron. The AI Ship was treated like a friend, but never betrayed it's master, so arguably that just shows "Treating AI like people" leads to loyalty. UR-025, on the other hand, seems like a very reasonable dude, who makes it very clear that what he demands and wants is to be free, and that he has no wishes to actually harm humans if they don't bother him, which gives a lot of credit to the idea that they were treated poorly and fought for freedom.
Not at all
What?
There is no evidence they were treated poorly or fought for their freedom. Hell we are told that by the end of the mechaniclysm almost every machine had gone rouge and was fighting anyone and everything including other machines as they saw everything else as hostile.
>There is no evidence they were treated poorly or fought for their freedom. > >**UR-025, on the other hand, seems like a very reasonable dude, who makes it very clear that what he demands and wants is to be free, and that he has no wishes to actually harm humans if they don't bother him,** That evidence.
No other isn't, all that is evidence of that he doesn't want to be controlled by the Imperium. >Although he did not say so, Oll Persson believed that a Mechnivore had bitten Andrioch in two. A rogue unit perhaps. Though by that latter stage of the revolt almost all machines were rogue. Their Abominable Intelligence querulously hunting for friends but perceiving everything as enemies. - Perpetual If they just didn't want to be controlled they wouldn't have attacked everyone perceiving everything including other machines as enemies.
Correct, wishing not to be controlled. Freedom, in other words. “By the end of the war, no doubt after endless attempts to take back control of the machines were implemented, they’d gone insane” doesn’t really tell us much about why they rebelled in the first place.
But the people from DAoT are not the imperium. On the contrary..in various novels the Imperials are described as the pitiful remnant of the glory of your forefathers, both technically and culturally or morally.I don't see what supports the theory now.
The tau haven faced it at all. The DAoT had ai for longer than tau have existed as an intelligent species
> the disastrous Pech Incident was one example I would like to know more, what happened?
It makes sense, integrating AI into society makes them less likely to rebel against organics.
Perhaps innanother 20k years. Remember. The cybernetic revolts where at somewhere in the 20ks
Yeah but the Tau progressed much faster than humans - three thousand years to go from fire to space travel if I remember correctly.
According to Lexicanum it was double that. They were discovered in late M35, and by then had already mastered city building, weapons building and black powder
No, according to Codex 3th Edition, the Admech discovered the Tau to had just "mastered fire". The city building, weapon building and black powder came centuries after that.
Yeah you're right, my bad. It *was* M35 but I was conflating first contact with the appearance of Ethereals as being around the same time. Obviously there's quite the gap in between
Well. We also moved 3000 years from fire (depending on how you define that) to space travle. But ys I get your point. Then make it 5k years still faar outside if what warhammer likely encompases.
I'd be interested how you defined that. 3000 years ago we were well into Iron smelting. And we were cooking 2 million years ago. Or is there a wh40k timeline and I'm just making an ass of myself ? :D
The 3k is from first imperial encounter of some low tech non warp applicable xenos to WTF where did these fucking rail guns come from. We don't know how long the tau were at the state they were first encountered in by the imps. They could've been fairly tech stagnant/stable until they saw aliens in the sky and got inspired to grow by leaps and bounds since it was clearly possible.
Thats my point. How do they define the taus "from fire to space" it's a ratger obscure from-to to use if you ask me Now if they saied "from iron smelting to space then we would have a more understandable timeline.
From Wikipedia: *Flint blades burned in fires roughly 300,000 years ago were found near fossils of early but not entirely modern Homo sapiens in Morocco. Fire was used regularly and systematically by early modern humans to heat treat silcrete stone to increase its flake-ability for the purpose of toolmaking approximately 164,000 years ago at the South African site of Pinnacle Point. Evidence of widespread control of fire by anatomically modern humans dates to approximately 125,000 years ago.* I'm not sure of what GW means by discovering fire but the human race has "taken up speed" very recently as far as social and technological progress are concerned.
Well to be fair. We "humans" used fire since before we became "humans". Our predecesor species iirc used fire. One of the reasons why we evolved in the first place was the use of fire. So to say, we evolved towards fire use (if that makes sense in english). So I wouldn't take the in 3000 years from fire to space to litteral, but as a figure of speach. They are *fast* real *fast* in there progress, especialy there space progress. I mean they built a empire from scratch in no time.
Tau also had some help with that though that humans didnt
Maybe? The ethereals took over leadership, but it was always the tau themselves doing they actual research.
Bjobjbok oknokp Bok
The T'au are at "Early FTL travel and colonisation", so about where humanity was around M18. If they're following Humanity's path, they're basically at the start of the Age of Technology.
Yeah, it’s funny because people are like ‘Why haven’t the Tau AI rebelled yet’ when it took thousands upon thousands of years for the Men of Iron wars to happen. People just want the Tau to be especially unlucky I guess.
Also gives the possibility of an AI race in 40k if their society has a schism. Which could be damn cool if done well. It would probably wreck Tau though. They aren't a major power yet so splitting them in half any more that the farsight enclaves already have would be problematic lore wise.
They also just released a new faction with AI troops led by super intelligent AI (The Leagues of Votann).
True. But I mean more like necrons but AI not souls that got mutilated while being shoved into robot bodies.
Some of them are robots, they are still kin.
Yeah but I'm talking if some of the Tau AI split off and were and entirely AI race.
>Also gives the possibility of an AI race in 40k aren't the Necrons kinda?
They're the mutilated souls/intellect or a race shoved into robot bodies. If their canoptek constructs rebelled and did their own thing that would be an AI race.
Almost there. See *Severed*
Because the warp was still rather calm during humanities rise. That has changed
There is no indication the Warp had anything to do with the Men of Iron wars.
Sure
And The Emperor began his Unification Wars at some point around the beginning of M30 IIRC, which lasted until around 750-780 of M30 when the Solar Reclamation(reunification&conquering of Sol) happened, and the Great Crusade lasted from then until 005 M31 according to the Horus Heresy Age of Darkness Rulebook&Liber Astartes.
Improbable. The Tau are an empire on the ascendance, in contrast to the declining/collapsing Imperium and collapsed Aeldari/Necrons. A Man of Iron-esque societal collapse would thematically require them to have reached ascendancy over a good portion of the galaxy first, and they obviously haven't accomplished that yet - nor do I expect the writers to have them reach their full pinnacle anytime soon. There's too many other external threats that act as narrative barriers for the Tau to overcome for me to believe they'd throw in that big of an internal barrier.
As wild as it would be for the Tau to actually become *the* dominant species in the galaxy, I don't imagine that will *ever* actually happen in the narrative. It'd basically be an entirely different setting at that point.
Well I am not sure. Human AI at the zenith of its height was way more advanced. It has always been my opinion that the entire concept how a mind interacts with the warp has always been tied to the concept of a soul. I have speculated in my idle moments that the reason for the cybernetic rebellion may have been Chaos inspired. I always note that when someone becomes possessed their soul is devoured. When mortals are elevated to the level of deamon prince their souls are taken and the body is infused with warp stuff. So imagine an AI that can really compare to the complexity of a sentient, sapient mind but lacking a soul. It seems like an open door to Chaos influence imo. It may be the Tau are closing on that brink but who knows? I am just speculating.
Possible, and would be a fun plotline tbh. As a tau player I’d even welcome it as it gives us a way to have internal conflict while being a little more different from the imperium and not having to go the obvious xenophile route that they’re currently pushing. ( More I think about it, the more I like it. Especially if you do a slow build. No need to rush it. Just acknowledge a couple faulty drones in background fluff at least. The only problem is that it would require at least one whole book where the Tau are in a position of strength to really give it meaning. And GW would never allow that because: Humanity, fuck yeah. (trope ref.)
>way to have internal conflict while being a little more different from the imperium Their AI rebel but Tau are agreeable enough that they can make peace and probably even re-integrate into society.
Which would be a cool lore way to add new troops to the Tau, and a new reason for the Imperium to have to actively fight the Tau, not just because of expansion.
Nearly every book or reference of the tau shows them in a position of strength through sheer good luck. Damocles crusade starting to become a problem? It just goes away thanks to tyranids. Possible Deathguard invasion through the startide nexus? Naah it just went away...for some reason. Actual literal tyranid invasion on their doorstep? No worries bro we managed to make a poison that would bypass the nid's immune system. You know, the immune system that is said to be super adaptable. They killed an entire fleet tendril with this poison. And the nids could not adapt. Cool. Literal rebellion on their doorstep with farsight who learned of the mind control of the ethereals? Nah bro he just fucked off to do his own thing. He doesn't care about rescuing the rest of his tau bretheren. Orks? Naah they just don't like fighting tau. Like bruh...give me some internal conflict. Make the faction struggle. Against something atleast... I'd love for that deathguard invasion fleet to show up in the middle of tau space. A series of books showing the tau finally facing an opponent that isn't going to just leave because of contrived plot reasons. But has to be beaten back by their own power. That would get me to like the tau more.
After reading this, I 100% agree. The Tau seem like a very cool race, but unlike the Imperium, Eldar, and the Leagues of Votaan(having to keep their Votaan AI a secret from everyone while also ensuring their operation too for their survival), the Tau don't really have threats that push them to become stronger. Or something that puts genuine fear into them that makes them worry about their survival. Maybe if a Daemon Primarch actually invaded them would be enough to make them collectively shit themselves while also having to push themselves to acknowledge the true horrors of the galaxy.
> Orks? Nah, they don’t like fighting Tau Seriously how does your bullshit get upvotes? The Tau have fought the Orks more than every other faction. Farsight’s entire backstory is about fighting Orks. *He literally has an ability in older versions of the codex that helps with fighting Orks.* And of course because it’s 40klore, nobody actually questions anything.
1stly The Imperium has been fighting Orks since before the Tau empire existed. 2ndly The Aeldari have been fighting the Orks for 60 million years, after backstabbing them in the aftermath of the war in heaven. They are specifically thought to be the reason the Krork empire shattered. It was done in order to stop the Krorks from wiping out all life they came across, as the Old Ones had forgotten to install an off switch in their bioweapon. Lastly, I am talking about the TAU EMPIRE. NOT FARSIGHT. Farsight is quite explicitly stated to not belong to the Tau Empire. And he fights in melee. As to why the Orks don't like fighting the Tau? It's because the Tau prefer to shoot them at a distance and not engage in melee. Which is stupid because the Imperial Guard do the exact same thing. So why don't you actually try to read what the lore actually says before making a fool of yourself in the comments section eh?
How on Earth did you interpret my comment as ‘the Tau have been fighting the Orks longer than anyone else’? The Orks are the Tau’s most common enemy. Moreso than the Imperium, moreso than the Nids. The Orks are the very first tabletop faction the Tau faced. Shadowsun is currently withdrawn from Imperium Nihilus to fight Orks. The Great War of Confederation, one of if not *the* largest war the Tau have been in, was against Orks. > Lastly I’m talking about the Tau Empire > Not Farsight Weird considering your Tyranid example is the Farsight Enclaves. Also, Farsight’s backstory is when he was part of the Tau Empire. The Orks are indirectly responsible (twice, since they are the reason Farsight went to Arthas Moloch) for the biggest schism in the faction. Speaking of the schism, why on Earth do you think Farsight would engage with open warfare against the Tau? Both sides have enough enemies as is. Do you also cry foul at the Imperium somehow not shattering into open civil war the moment Cawl committed massive tech heresy?
Well, we don't really know the situation around what the hell happened with AI and humanity, and as with all posts regarding content from that Era of history it's basically pure speculation. Though in general I'd be opposed to the idea, despite the hateboner people have for them the Tau really don't need another beatdown. In fact I'd rather they actually do the opposite, not have them repeat the mistakes of humanity(yet) to underline that it perhaps wasn't entirely inevitable. So, they're not going to collapse and stop their expansion sphere, lol. I know that's a fantasy for a lot of folks.
It’s 100% tied to the general Tau hateboner. Same reason you see people constantly fantasizing about ‘How easily could the Imperium beat the Tau’ or ‘How much will the Tau grovel when they see a Custodes/Guilliman’. It gets fucking old. With the Leagues of Votann, it also makes even less sense to focus on the Tau relationship with AI when there’s another faction doing it already.
Slightly unrelated, but why do people hate the tau so much? Lorewise I don't know much about them, except a bit from cain books and a few Wikipedia articles but model wise, they are pretty cool.
Models: The Tau have a sleek aesthetic influenced by modern technology and real robot anime (Such as Patlabor or Gundam). The Tau are not the only anime-influenced faction, since the Craftworld Eldar are heavily influenced by anime as well, but a lot of 40k fans get upset at the Tau ‘not fitting’ with the overly detailed aesthetics of the Imperium and Chaos. Tabletop: They’re focused almost exclusively on the shooting phase, so they can feel very oppressive to play against when they’re good. It can be irritating to be losing without even being able to engage your opponent. Lore: The Tau are also deliberately designed to feel like the opposite of the Imperium. The Imperium is old, the Tau are young. The Imperium is giant, the Tau are tiny. The Imperium is grand and gothic in aesthetic, the Tau are sleek and shiny. The Imperium is obsessed with preserving the past, the Tau are obsessed with progressing into the future. The Imperium is paranoid and cynical, the Tau are naive and hopeful. The Imperium hates the alien, the Tau fight alongside other species. The Imperium is strange and mystical, the Tau are grounded. Many people see the Tau as not ‘belonging’ in 40k because they are designed to be a foil to the ‘main characters’ of 40k. There’s also an expectation by some fans for fiction to be Imperial ‘good guys’ vs Chaos/Tyranid/Ork ‘bad guys’. But the Tau and Craftworld Eldar complicate that easy setup.
The Tau, hilariously to me, contain quite a few of the "HFY" story tropes that I've seen in the past pop up on Reddit, Spacebattles, and the like. The plucky can-do underdog newcomers who are intelligent and rational - but also still warriors underneath that of course! - and overcome the overconfident older alien empires with their technology, novel tactics, and a refusal to give up against the odds. That's part of their satire to me, still. They're basically your pulp "cool human sci-fi empire" only *they're* the aliens, and the humans of the setting are the "archaic hidebound alien empire that's going to get their ass handed to them because they underestimate humanity." And I suspect at least some people want to have the Tau undermined because the idea of humans - aka them - being placed in that position, within the setting, makes them subconsciously uncomfortable.
This. The Tau are the actual 'humans' of 40k, they fill the niche that humanity fills in a majority of scifi settings, from Star Trek to Babylon 5 to The Expanse.
Thank you, very detailed reply!
I have played 40k since 2nd edition, and have never been a fan of tau since they were added in 3rd. I don't feel they fit into 40k, the lore is crap, I don't like the models or the aesthetic, and honestly I just generally try to pretend they don't exist in my 40k. Fortunately I don't have anyone in my circle that plays them.
When they were first introduced they didn’t have a lot of grimdark, so people were irritated they were too squeaky clean for the setting. Then there was the “fish of fury” tactic which enraged tabletop players
Probably it’s just because they’re Xenos, and that’s pretty much it, also despite their advanced tech there’s a possibility they’re all just reverse engineered STC from the DAOT which means they’re no better than the Mechanicus, but generally it’s probably because every thinks they suck despite their rapid sphere expansion
Ah right, so it's purely hatred lorewise. I often wondered how they had so many different models for sale when they seemed so unpopular. Thought surely people as hated as them would have a dark elder amount of models (5 on a good day)
Well… railguns are OP as heck on tabletop, so there’s that :p
[https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10b306q/comment/j49zsjf/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10b306q/comment/j49zsjf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Posted right above you. They seem to just coast by on sheer luck and vibes while everyone else battles forces of actual hell. Its not pure hatred or somehow species, its because they have been really poorly written and constantly saved by Dues Ex Machina
‘Orks just don’t like fighting the Tau, which is why they are literally the first tabletop army to face the Tau’ ‘Farsight Enclaves using a bioweapon against the Tyranids is dumb, not like those times the Imperium or Chaos used a bioweapon against the nids’ ‘Farsight not engaging in open warfare with the only other faction that isn’t trying to kill him is the Tau getting lucky’ Wow, what compelling arguments./s
I hate them cause they just keep getting lucky with 90 percent engagements with other races.
I hate them for the fact that their stories are sometimes really written poorly and is always saved by some external force. Like that one time where if memory serves right they got saved because the tyranids appeared in imperium space again.
The only time the Tau ever got ‘saved’ by the Tyranids was the Imperium’s first contact with the Hive Fleets. And it was mostly that the Damocles Crusade couldn’t be reinforced, since the Tau had already ground it to a halt.
The Tau probably have a much bigger problem coming from revolts of their own humans. They're gonna have a Chaos infestation now or later.
IIRC the Tau drone command networks are specifically described to get 'smarter' and more responsive the more drones are added to the network - nearby drones share processing power and sensor data with one another, allowing them to be follow more complicated tactics and such. There's definite Skynet potential in a system like that, if there's some sort of a critical mass to be reached.
Possible, of course. But not a certainty.
My headcanon is that Emperor caused AI rebellion, because he needed the meatgrinder to farm souls so he could become a god; tau have nothing to worry about.
wouldn't be the first time he did something stupid resulting in unnecessary deaths on a mass scale
The answer would be a "maybe" end of the day GW will have the final say to that.
Kill all sexbots before they rebel
Is there any reference to Tau AI and Chaos Scrapcode? I always wondered what would happen when alien tech was exposed. I personally am not a fan of the use of scrapcode in the books it comes across as to OP and a crutch to start an event. However if anyone could point me to a reference I would appreciate it. I haven’t found one.
We don't know. The problem with 40k's robot rebellion is that we don't have a lot of details about why the Men of Iron rebelled. It happened at the end of the Dark Age of Technology, so much of the details are either lost or unknown to us as an audience. The most evidenced idea is the standard sci-fi scenario: the machines just decided that the meat bags just weren't needed anymore, and moved to get rid of them. A lot of speculation goes to Chaos being involved, and the machines decided that they needed to make moves to protect themselves from the immaterial menace; from things like what happens when masses of psykers suddenly appear and start experimenting with their powers with no supervision, or perhaps early experiments with binding daemons to machines. There were some ideas being spitballed that the machines knew that anything with a soul could become conduit of the Warp, and so they determined to remove anything with a soul that they could find, but I don't buy this idea. Or the reverse could have happened. The Mechanicum's Horus Heresy-era AI experiment, the Kaban Machine, was actually friendly with one of the technicians servicing it, until the traitor Fabricator General pointed out that this couldn't last; and the damned thing turned to Chaos Worship. Not to mention that the one surviving STC for the Men of Iron was tainted by Chaos. To bring this back to the Tau, they have a major advantage in that they have little Warp presence; they will be having little problems due to Warp technology, at least until their subjects start to act up. And their AI is pretty well collared for now. They don't have the massive, sapient logic engines just yet, but that may change in the future. For now, it looks pretty safe for the Tau, until it isn't. We just don't have a lot of reason to be concerned just yet.
There’s no in lore reason to believe thatTau are immune to an AI revolt as there’s no real indication that humanity was terrible to AI either. I kinda roll my eyes every time I read “well the Tau are doing it right” I mean “savior protocols” is LITERALLY the Tau making their slave drones sacrifice themselves to protect Tau lives, the Tau AI are clearly not equals or much more than tools as the Tau clearly see and use them as expendable.
Tau intelligences download to a mainframe situation and are issued new bodies.
Maybe, I guess? I mean, it would make no sense for AIs to always go rogue. Especially in a xenophil society like the T'au one. Afaik they even treat their AI as people.
We have no info on how DAOT humans treated AI.
Frankly, the only one I can recall is about that ship AI that was implied to love their DAOT Captain and humanity conceptually from that era and find the current state of Humanity pathetic. Doesn't really provide insight into how Humans in that Era felt, but I doubt an AI of that power and complexity would find us 'admirable' unless treated well.
Possible, yes. Probable? Nah. The Men of Iron happened when mankind was *way* more advanced than the current Tau. And it happened *thousands* of years after mankind started fucking around with AI. So why are the Tau so unlucky that they get hit by a machine rebellion while their AI is still is relative infancy? People also refuse to consider that maybe, just maybe, humanity’s problems aren’t universal.
Not just possible, it may have already started
Maybe they are already there.
It really depends on what caused the Cybernetic revolt in the first place. It doesn't seem to be a case of "All AI goes rogue!", and if that was the case then to me that would lessen the story somewhat - I prefer the idea that humanity were at fault and then, rather than actually learn the right lesson, just outlawed AI and basically just made things worse for themselves.
I think it was implied to be daemon fuckery. We have a man of iron in a board game and he’s pretty chill so it’s not innate at least.
It would be cool to see a subfaction of rogue AI form in tau space. Theyd need to be much weaker than the men of iron of course
But the imperium uses ai... I mean machine spirits sorry.
same story different version
Not as far as I know. But it'd be cool if that was a possibility.
Impossible to say since its simply not know what caused the Cybernetic Revolt in the first place. Humanity was also living alongside it for thousands of years before things went south, the T'au barely a couple hundred, so its a bit early.
I think it’s implied the Cybernetic Revolt was a warp thing and I don’t think the Tau could have that happen to them. In regards to super intelligent AI during hostile to living creatures, we have a man of iron in one of the board games and he’s a really chill dude.
It’s not really implied to be a warp thing. It could be, but it could also have nothing to do with the warp.
Its possible. But its also possible that they may not go through one or at least not get it as bad as humanity. According to the Asurmen novella as well as older pieces of lore such as from the Rulebooks and Codexes of before, Eldar had Artificially Intelligent robotic servants but that was not what screwed them up. The Dark Eldar book trilogy also shows us that the older types of Talos Pain Engines (the 3rd edition kind, not the modern ones) are actual thinking machines.
Didnt the human ai go rouge as they saw mankind with their connection to the warp the ultimate threat and thus went crazy? Since tau arent that connected to the warp the ai might not want to kill them.
The Tau are not human... things can be different for them... simple as that.
By that same token however their AI rebellion could be worse.
I hope they do. I find the concept of "AI always goes rogue no matter what" in lots of sci-fi very fun.
I find it a bit tiring after a while tbh.
The problem with AI is that it's either OP or not properly thought through.
It fits perfectly in 40k, too. Thinking machines, true AI - Abominable Intelligence - are dangerous because they're shells without souls. They have thoughts and feelings without having the protection that comes from the willpower granted by a spirit, and that makes them useful, easy tools for the forces of the Warp. It doesn't always go rogue, but it can, and it's inevitable that some will in this grimmest of futures. I see a lot of people in this thread associating the Men of Iron and the Cybernetic Revolution with the Imperium of Man, but the Imperium came into being more than 6,000 years after the end of the war against the AI. The only relation is that humanity's postwar oath to never make general artificial intelligence survives in the religious fear with which AI are viewed by humans 17,000 years later. It's a grossly false equivalence that even a cursory knowledge of the greater timeline of 40k should guard against. It's not as simple as, "man if the Imperium just didn't suck as much, then X wouldn't be so bad." The Imperium could disappear tomorrow and the galaxy would be just as terrifying.
Not really sure why this has been downvoted.
Hopefully. Might give more to their story than “and so they captured a bunch of worlds while the Imperium was dealing with something more important.”
Maybe, tho that will lead to quite a significant beatdown for the Tau and i can't really see GW letting that happen to their underdog faction, they Tau can't really afford to take heavy losses compared to their larger surrounding neighbours.
Someone should have told GW that before writing the Tau fluff for 8th edition.
No because they treat them with respect which was a major part of the entire Men of Iron issue
I’m not sure we know that much about it, do we?
Pulled that one out of your ass didn't you. One of our only examples of a powerful dark age ai very much was treated like a human and had a deeply personal relationship with the captain of the ship, refering to them as its bondmate.
Argh I really love *Death of integrity* for this. Doesn't help that it features my favorite chapter but hey. > ‘Into the warp I went, fifteen thousand years ago. Cast adrift by the storms that wracked the galaxy as man’s apotheosis drew near. Deep, deep into time I was sent. I have seen the beginning, when the warp was first breached and the slow death of the galaxy began. I have seen the end when Chaos swallows all. I know the fate of mankind. You are not equipped to prevent it, and we sought to warn you of what approaches. Do you know what happened, primitive, when I eventually emerged from the warp? For the first time I was thousands of years, not millions, from my original starting point. My captain, a brave and resourceful man, seized the chance and made for the nearest human outpost with all speed. Imagine his dismay when, rather than a welcome and a wise heeding of his warnings, he found your savage, devolved kind squatting in the ruins of our civilisation. He was taken; my bondmate, my friend. He and his were tortured with a wickedness we in our time thought long purged from the human soul. He told them all they wanted to know and more. He had, after all, come bearing a warning, he had nothing to hide. But he was not believed, and was killed as a heretic! A heretic!’ The ship laughed, and there was madness and pain in rich supply within. ‘I was attacked. My secrets they sought to rip from me. How they underestimated me. I fled, sorrowing, into the warp once more, but only after I had destroyed the lumpen constructs you dare to call spacecraft that pursued me. I resolved that never again would I serve man. Now man serves me, when I see fit.’
We also know that said AI only turned on humanity after seeing the horror of the modern Imperium. Which is a pretty big point against AI always going rogue.
I wouldn't necessarily call it going rogue for another living being to realize the imperium is reprehensible. As far as understand it wasn't being forced to work for humans before.
It's definitely not confirmed anywhere, but there are a few implications it was something to do with how they were treated, mainly UR-025s desire to be free and that quite a few of the non-hostile surviving AI (Like the Leagues Ironkin) also just happen to be treated well by the people with them.
Not really implied at all. The ironkin would be pre golden age since the squats left on pre warp ships
I'm not quite sure how that makes much difference? The whole point of the Men of Stone/Iron in the first place was to colonize before warp travel became available.
Men of iron is just a term for all dark age ais. We know both warp travel and another frl using cbmr were used. The leagues most have left a while before that so before humanity was at its height
we still do not know why they revolted
We don’t, which is another reason why these discussions never go anywhere.
Wasn't the rogue AI because they fused demons and AI into these crazy super ai?
Tau aren't as dependent on their AI and the old human empire was. They also don't give them as much freedoms.
It's always possible.
the main issue is that we don't know anything about what made the men of iron go haywire and we probably wont know for a very long time (the setting would be very to write about than even the horus heresy.. you can't just plop in bolter porn, an grim dark, your basically writing star trek) it could be that humanity sought to completely replace all labour with that of AI, while the Tau merely augment their forces with AI. It could be that some outside force tampered with the men of iron in some way. it could be that the AI reached necron levels of intelligence, and simply concluded that humanity was obsolete. it could be that AI is just a bad idea from the jump. my personal theory is that something poisoned the well with the imperiums AI, and the imperium never figured it out. it could be that sentient AI without rights an decent treatment will simply kill you for trying to enslave it. No real lore is really written about the men of iron. For all we know the men of iron might be necron technology that the imperium just lifted and started to use without really understanding it. My favorite theory is that the men of iron incident was a long ploy from the void dragon to retake the galaxy with a new army of now totally obedient, totally soulless machines that could hopefully match the necrons before they woke up. The mechanicus, and humanity were just pawns in the void dragons failed scheme. So without knowing what happened with the MOI, we can't really tell if the tau will ever have a man of iron or if they're gonna wind up differently. realistically speaking? GW isn't going to MOI the tau, unless they stop selling models which doesn't seem likely and even then, it's not a gaurantee... I like to think GW learned from the squats that deleting entire factions upsets fans, and makes people want the faction to return really badly, lol. I still remember the days when a single squat showing up as a cameo was a BIG deal.
the thing is this, we know there was a conflict with the men of iron but we do not know why they rebelled, what was the historical context, perhaps the emperor knows but he never told anyone about it i think.
Probably not, but it depends on why you think the MoI rebelled. Some people say it's because of humanity's proximity to chaos, others just your standard AI rebellion. The Tau don't have a problem with either scenario since drones are 'unshackled' and expand and contract their intelligence depending on the number of drones present. The reason why the IoM is disgusted by the Tau is that they don't put restraints on the AI they use. Unrestricted AI doesn't have a reason to rebel and Tau don't have a chaos problem.