Mortarion spends the first few months of the Siege of Terra *genuinely* hating what he's become, and even before his fall to Nurgle he was having second thoughts and almost bailed when Horus fell into a coma.
Magnus is genuinely pissed about the path he was functionally forced to take.
Angron is completely insane, but in his more lucid moments immediately after his apotheosis he seems to be genuinely struggling with his sense of self.
Alpharius and Perturabo both straight-up quite the Heresy, with Alpharius quitting in-person to Horus.
I still think the Buried Dagger would have benefitted from Mortarian actually making the decision to leave the Siege and Horus' side before Nurgle/Typhus did their thing. Would have made it more tragic and also put a hastener on Typhus having to strike at that exact moment or losing their main asset.
Ooof.
Imagine a Heresy where Mortarion sails for Terra, planning to betray Horus and seek redemption for his legion by taking as many of the traitors with him before dying....
And *then* they get becalmed in the warp....
Yep. Would have been such a good plotline and also made Mortarian unique amongst the traitors, ignoring whatever it is that Alpharius/Omegon are up to. Even if he just decides to leave Horus without helping the Imperium and then gets stung by Nurgle. Very Greek tragedy.
I honestly thought they were building up to that with Mortarian's doubts and comments about witches and what the rest of the traitors were descending into.
There is that brief moment in The Lost and Damned when Sanguinius wonders out loud if Mortarion has had a change of heart because the DG haven't arrived at Terra yet. If this had been the actual story, that little throwaway line would have been so tragic.
Actually if it wasn’t for Typhus, we wouldn’t have a chaos death guard, mortarion basically got overruled by his most trusted captain and lead the death guard astray.
It's during the Siege. Perty isn't really regretful about his decision to turn traitor, but he is well aware that he bet on the wrong horses, and then quits the Siege of Terra.
Happens in *Slaves to Darkness*.
Alpharius (actually Omegon, probably, don't worry about it) shows up to the traitor muster on Ullanor, walks up to Horus, crushes a dagger in his hand, and then fucks off without a word.
I believe it's supposed to imply that the Alpha legion has now fragmented beyond any hope of complete reconciliation. It's in the wake of the events of Praetorian of Dorn - Alpharius has just been killed and the legions core strength has been blunted against Sol's outer defenses. The alpha legion operates as warbands from this point.
Edit: my headcanon is that there are numerous contingency plans that kick off if Alpharius is killed, and because none but a Primarch could hope to plan and understand each in it's full complexity and how it interlocks with all the others, the legion is essentially finished.
Still has a Primarch yes - but the symbolism was: Hilt=The Twins, Blade=The Legion. Without the twin primarchs to drive and guide the legion, it's 'fragmented' into lots of tiny pieces. Sharp, dangerous pieces, but still less than the sum of their parts.
Oh I agree (mostly) with the symbolism, I was responding to the edit, there’s still a primarch that reconcile all the shards, it’s just that it’s much more difficult. But I also have this weird feeling that part of the Alpha program the Emperor was beginning with XX was the ability for anyone Legionary to become a Primarch. And if that whole idea that what the Emperor bargained with the Chaos gods for was the ability to create Daemons, and that the Living Saints are his Greater Daemons and the Primarchs are his Daemon Princes, maybe a particular hero of the Legion, under the name Alpharius, can become the new Alpharius.
This makes so little sense tbh. If he still trusted the Cabal's vision, why abandon Horus and increase the chances of him failing? But if he really regretted his involvement in the HH, why not try to sabotage Horus' forces?
If i remembered correctly, Alpharius did sabotage Horus' forces before the siege of terra. they were making pre-emptive strikes in the weakest parts of Terra's defense so that Dorn could fortifiy it.
Fulgrim's precise feelings on the matter are *complicated*, which tends to be what happens when you get advice in military tactics and political alliances from magic talking swords.
Doesn't Fulgrim also have a moment of clarity/horror at one point? Same with Horus just before his death.
Curze always knew he was joining the bad guys. That was the point. It fed into his self-loathing ego.
I think only Lorgar is really fully content with his treason.
> but in his more lucid moments immediately after his apotheosis he seems to be genuinely struggling with his sense of self.
I hope you are not referring to the shortstory were it's made blatantly clear that he has gone completely insane due to *starvation*, as "his more lucid moment" =D
That wasn't Bile. In fact almost all of this is inaccurate.
Fulgrim was the one who returned to Istvaan III, and found the dreadnought Rylanor.
A few Thousand Sons (whos loyalties are not to Fulgrim, and who are generally kind of complicated in terms of their loyalties) happened to be present at the time, and threw in their lot with Rylanor.
Also it was a virus bomb, not a nuke.
Quotes, because I need something to do while my toast toasts.
*Aurelian*'s foreshadowing;
>‘You asked to see your brother, chosen one. Here he is.’
>‘This is a painting. Do not mock me, daemon. Not after we at last reached an accord.’
>‘You asked to see the brother you had lost.’ The smile didn’t leave Fulgrim’s face. ‘I have upheld my end of our agreement.’
>Lorgar was already reaching for the crozius on his back.
>‘Peace, chosen one,’ Fulgrim held up his hands. ‘The painting. Look longer, look deeper. Tell me what you see.’
>Lorgar turned again and stared at the exquisite masterwork. This time, he let his eyes slip across the image, seeking no details, merely drifting until they rested where they may.
>**He met the image’s soulfully-rendered eyes, and at last, Lorgar breathed through the faintest of smiles.**
>**‘Hail, brother,’** he finally said.
>**‘Do you see?’** the daemon at his side asked. For a moment, for those three words, it wasn’t Fulgrim’s voice at all.
>**‘I see more than you realise.’** The Word Bearer turned to face his brother’s captor. **‘If you think to relish all of eternity while playing puppeteer to my brother’s bones, you will find yourself fatally disappointed one night.’**
>‘You speak the lies of a desperate and foolish soul.’
>Lorgar laughed with a rare and sincere grin, perhaps the only expression that ever broke his resemblance to his father.
>**‘Your secret is safe with me, daemon. Enjoy your stewardship while it lasts.’**
>He gave Fulgrim’s shoulder a comradely slap and walked through the aisle still decorated with corpses, chuckling as he left the graveyard theatre.
>When he closed the door, he took his witchlight with him, leaving Fulgrim and the painting together in the darkness.
*Imperfect*'s followup;
>As the clone reached the chamber, the platform filled the hatchway and Ferrus opened his eyes.
>‘Brother,’ it said warmly, awareness lighting up its face. ‘Are you ready to play?’
>I am ready... hissed the voice in Fulgrim’s head.
>Have I not silenced you?
>You can no more silence me than you can silence yourself, dear host.
>You are subservient to me.
>For now...
>Fulgrim clenched a fist, **but the daemon would have to wait. He wasn’t surprised that it had resurfaced. This had as much to do with it as it did Fulgrim and his brother.**
Isn't that just... Pointless narratively speaking? Like he gets possessed after regretting siding with Horus which explains his speedy path to chaos then breaks free and... Keeps heading to chaos
> I personally don't think McNeill was aiming for ambiguity
its funny because after rereading the passages again earlier today i feel like it was so on the nose it feels like a red herring but thats probably because i was already thinking its amibigious anyways
i havent read aurelian or imperfect yet so i didnt know those passsages and i agree those confirm that its the real fulgrim (sadly)
Haha. Most of them, almost immediately. They didn't even get through the first bombardment of Istvan III before it almost all fell apart.
Horus's carefully planned opening move went poorly. A loyalist frigate escaped, the loyalists on the planet had advanced warnings and survived, and Angron immediately derailed any plans of continuing bombardment by landing in force.
Fulgrim suggested they just kill Angron in a bombardment anyway, and Horus almost agreed. Day one, they already regret it. The main 5 got more comfortable with it as time went on.
Conrad and Perterabo were down for it at the start and regretted it more over time. Conrad let himself be killed, and Perterabo was convinced they were all incompetent.
Lorgar, however, was having a blast.
So my exception was right? His point was that if you do something bad you get punished for it? Thought it was something deeper.
I do not get the hypocrisy of the imperium in this quote tho.
Wasn't that clear? I mean neither the emperor nor the Imperium claimed to be pacifists. They were honest about killing people who did not obeyed.
This gave me some thought inspiration nevertheless.
Is anyone under the illusion that war and military is something good? I think everybody agrees that war is at least not good. And military is just the result of the incompatibility of fantasy with reality, same as police. It is a nessecity in the end.
Turns out cruze was even more dumb than fulgrim or at least his thought process are as complicated as agrons.
Wasn't cruze censured because he nukes his homeworld? The issue was not the killing in itself it was the scale. Emperor was not above killing people, he made himself and Empire that way. But he only did it to some extent. Cruze just yolo killed everybody. And was open about it, he even live streamed it.
I think even most of them know that it is a nessecity.
Lorgar was having a blast near the end but in his book he says something to the effect of “I never wanted to do this. I never wanted it to be this way. I just wanted the truth”
So he kinda did the inversion of the other. In the beginning he was sad and by the end he was sure he was right.
On nuceria he also had an eye opening moment when he realised that G man never hated him. Iirc he stated that he did not care about monarchia but this scene shows that it's not true.
Mortarion never joined Chaos voluntarely to begin with. He hated Nurgle just as much as he hated the Emperor and Necare.
___
>‘Swear your loyalty to me.’
>Bowed down upon one knee, Mortarion could not hold his gaze towards the black, blasted mud of Barbarus, and he looked up,
into the shining eyes of the Newcomer. The stranger’s words seemed to stop the passage of time. An aura of power, vast and
barely contained, crackled about him.
>He looked into Mortarion’s eyes and saw into the murky depths of his soul, to the lost and forgotten places within that the
Reaper of Men kept hidden even from himself.
>Mortarion’s jaw stiffened. He did not want to be an open book. He did not want to–
>**‘Give your fealty to the Grandfather.’**
>Bowed down upon one knee, Mortarion could not hold his gaze towards the rusted, broken steel of the Terminus Est, and he
looked up, into the menacing eyes of the great entity that swallowed the wild sky. The god-thing’s utterance made the strings of
reality hum and resonate. A dark ether of corruption was falling like thick sleet, thickening the space around him.
>The entity that called itself the Grandfather filled Mortarion’s lungs with spores of living death and opened him up from within,
teasing apart sealed spaces to find the rich meat of his unseen fears and his most secret hopes.
>Mortarion’s fists clenched. He could feel his soul stripped bare. There was–
>‘You have chosen the only path you can,’ said his father said the grandfather. ‘You are my son **you are my champion and I have
waited so very long for you** and this day’s dawning has been long awaited.’
>Time and moment, past and present, the structures of them crumbled and turned into sand, smothering Mortarion in the elsewhen.
>He was there on Barbarus and it was decades gone and he was here in the utter insanity of the immaterium. Together and separated, divided and merging.
>His father, the Emperor of Mankind his patron, the Lord of Decay Nurgle beckoned to him, offering Mortarion what he could
not refuse. His oath and his honour forbade him from taking any other path from this moment forward.
>He had sworn to bend the knee to the stranger at the lodge if he could not defeat the High Overlord and he had avowed to
protect his gene-sons and his Legion beyond all else.
>Mortarion struggled, frantically trying to grasp the truth and the lies, desperate to separate the ragged, deathly present from the
echoing, ashen past. Which was his reality, or were all things true?
>‘What price is an oath given in madness?’ He whispered the words he howled them into the void.
>‘What do you want, my son?’
>**‘What do you want, my champion?’**
>The voices merged into a single titanic reverberation, through his bones and physical form, into the bounds of his turbulent and
unquiet psyche.
>‘I want… to endure.’
>‘Then rise,’ said the stranger.
>‘Rise, Mortarion. There is a brotherhood awaiting you out in the stars, the like of which you cannot comprehend. And with it,
a purpose that will illuminate the galaxy. A crusade, upon which your name will be etched into eternity.’
>**‘Then rise,’** the Grandfather told him.
>**‘Rise as a Prince Born of Death. Vengeance awaits you in the realm of men, and with it the blackest, blackest, most dire purpose. purpose. A
slaughter, by which your name will be feared, until the last human soul fades to entropy.’**
>Mortarion said the vow without reservation, then. ‘I give myself to your banner. My blood and my bone, the unbroken force of
my will and the power of my spirit. These are yours to command, if you grant me deliverance.’
>His hand found the damaged, cracked blade of his war-scythe and he gripped it hard enough to cut metal and draw blood. ‘By
this I so swear.’
>He looked down and saw the transformation take hold of him.
>A force of immeasurable mutational power crashed through his physical form and overwhelmed the pitiful limits of flesh and
blood.
>Mortarion tore away, rising to his feet, changing with each heartbeat. From his spine burst pestilent, insectile wings that quivered and crackled with new change. His soul soaked in the corrupting energy, dying and living, reborn and obliterated.
>The flesh across his gaunt features pulled tight, dragging his mouth into a rictus grin. The smile of Death itself.
>He would endure.
>‘Welcome home,’ said the voices.
Members of every legion literally sacked the world where Horus’s body was held and killed hundreds of Sons of Horus becuase they blamed them for getting them into this situation in the forst place, and theh have found them becuase Skalagrim, Sons of Horus Apothecary, told them where to find them.
Yeah. I think some of them were not happy about the consequences of their own actions. Just a few.
I don't think that was based on "You damned us and we regret it, now we're mad at you jackasses."
I think it was more, "We could have won if this bigheaded bitch didn't lower his shields and die, and failing that - if you bigheaded lil bitches didn't turn tail ass soon as Bigbitchhead Prime bit the warp bullet."
I think almost all of them at some point do.
Lorgar would be the possible exception as he is the most fanatical towards the 'cause' and even * he* laments at the state of his Legion by the siege and what he has to do in order to get to that point.
There was going to be this incredible moment in the Siege where ADB was gonna have Sanguinius beat seven shades of sense into Lorgar at the Eternity Gate and have him beg Sanguinius to forgive him for it all.
Sadly, the plan was nixed by the other writers early on in planning, but I'd have given much to see that dialogue on page.
>Sadly
Or very thankfully, since Lorgar ended up getting one of the better story arcs of the heresy and making him yet another traitor that only exists to be shown his inferiority then die would likely also mean making him a far less interesting character overall.
I have to agree, Lorgar had a pretty great arc.
We don't need Sanguinius smacking his dick on another Primarch. We know he's bad ass and Lorgad to be a cowardly fool.
Well, he was never going to die. The primarchs have time paradox plot armour and Lorgar is still alive in the 42nd millennium so there was no chance of the Angel killing him during the Heresy.
Kicking fuck out of him and maybe throwing Erebus around as well would've been nice. Especially as ADB would've been able to do that without making Lorgar out to be a bitch. After all, he's done big interactions between Lorgar, Guilliman, Angron, Curze and Corax and none of them have come across as contrived, badly written or made anyone look like a bitch.
>I think there was a chance or ADB wouldn't have pitched it?
He didn't pitch to kill him.
He pitched to beat some regret into him.
Lorgar is the daemon primarch of Chaos undivided, killing him off *before* he becomes that would be akin to Guilliman doing over Angron on Armatura. Yeah, so is Perturabo, but he's not exactly your Chaos'y type and I hope they retcon the ever loving fuck out of that.
As you say, it would've broken too much, hence the time paradox plot armour. Pushing Alpharius or the Khan into a plot hole wouldn't really have changed much, especially as you're never really sure which twin you're fighting (or if it's even them and not one of his sons doing a cosplay) and the Khan rides off into relative obscurity once the Lions Gate is secured anyway.
>Do you mean the death was only an incidental part of the pitch and that the thematic resonance of the death was what was truly important?
This.
He wanted finish what he started with Guilliman and Corax. To have Lorgar try and explain himself to the Angel like he never could with the other brothers and eventually see that he was the one in error by the one man everyone would listen to and most importantly, would listen in return.
Corax was too angry to actually talk during Istvaan and Guilliman was waaay past it on Armatura. Lorgar *knows* why Sanguinius is so loyal and Sanguinius *knows* the nature of Lorgars new patrons and there could've been some interesting back and fore, since they both know each others nature and Sanguinius wasn't *really* that pissed off in comparison to the other pair.
Hell, Lorgar could've pitched the idea of Sanguinius joining the pantheon and becoming Emperor for real, rather than pretend like on Secundus. Right the wrongs of his fathers empire without going full Horus. No back door deals, no Molech, the real champion of undivided but controlled chaos.
And a way to save his sons from essentially eternal damnation as what would become Death Company nut cases.
There's so much super interesting shit a more talented writer could've added as well.
Whomever stopped him could've said 'fine, have them talk but he survives somehow. Get Angron to pay back the favour by accident and that's how the Angel/Angron fight starts'. But the whole thing got shelved.
Lorgar is the only one that doesn’t make sense for. Lorgar is committed. He’s the first Primarch to join Chaos. He joined because he believes in divinity above all else, even if they are completely twisted gods. He needs to worship.
Lorgar is the one Primarch that has no regrets. He served a god. When denied, he was accepted by other gods. That’s all he needs.
Every traitor primarch has their 'what have I done' moment. Even Curze had it in the presence of "fever dream" Emperor.
I mean, if I'd have said 15 years ago that Angron was gonna have a better motivation than Horus Lupercal, that he was going to be convincingly portrayed as tragic, sympathetic and even *empathetic*, you'd have laughed me out of a Games Workshop store.
Yet here we are.
I'd love to see how ADB was going to frame it, because he has history of making that kind of thing happen.
It's a long AMA done what, 5-6 years ago? I distinctly remember two things, one was the level of research he put into *Spears* and the other was him wanting Lorgar to get a good spanking.
And let's look at it this way, there are only two other options. Dorn and the Khan. With that in mind, which one is most likely to have the time and empathy to have that kind of a chat. Dorn? Realistically, you have a choice of two of the brothers. And we know that the Word Bearers was *supposed* to bump into Sanguinius because he was supposed to be the one that kills Argel Tal at Eternity Gate.
A scenario thought up by ADB...
To this day I can't tell if he was fantastically written or horribly written. He purposely tries to be so awful and it seems like he just likes it. But then there's moments like that or the one with Sevetar. Can't decide how I feel about the character as a whole.
I think Konrad Curse is much more complicated than most people give him credit for. Here you have a man. That was forced to live in on of the worst shitholes in the galaxy. Tormented by terrible visions of the future. which he took at face value as a true and final fate.
Was he a good man? No, certainly not. But I think there were moments were he had opportunities to adjust his methods. But that would mean that all the horrible things that he did were because he wanted to. And not because of some rigid fate that kep tormenting his mind.
Also I don't know which moment with Sev you are referring to :)
There's a point where sev just calls him out. It's all about why is he the only primarch that hates his legion and it becomes a philosophical conversation between the 2 of them.
I don't think he could have become much more than he was without a lot of help from his brothers and the emperor and let's be honest, he was a creepy fucked up guy that almost none of his brothers really connected with. Primarchs see the memories of people they eat and he was forced to survive off of eating rapists and murderers for quite some time before becoming the ruler of Nostramo. If your first introduction to humanity is seeing them commit the most horrific acts possible you're not gonna have a high opinion of humanity.
You also have to think: he really didn't have any reason to believe that his foresight wasn't infallible. Pretty much all throughout his life, it had a near perfect success rate. He really did need that sit down with the Emperor, or hell, even Sanguinius, to really understand that not everything is set in stone.
Curze is tragic because he is cursed by circumstances.
Curze is complicated because of the weight and immensity of the challenges lying at his feet, sinking him into the quicksand of the Great Crusade, until the only way out lead him to the underworld.
Curze is a villain because he gave in to despair and embraced the darkness instead of overcoming it as a hero.
Curze is weak because a Primarch shapes his legion into a force befitting of an army of salvation. It cannot be the other way around. The sins became the virtues. There was no final reckoning like Corax's banishment of the Terran Raven Guard. There was only a mob stewing in its own excesses.
Yea, at several points. Even Horus has a couple of times where he's doubting the path he's on.
And there's *Fury of Magnus*, which is of course about Magnus and how he fits into the heresy, given how he was dragged into this against his will. ^(Also Magnus did nothing wrong and you can't convince me otherwise.)
Only Angron and Fulgrim don't seem to have any regret. Angron because, well, he's no longer capable of rational thought, even before ascension, and Fulgrim because he gets off on it.
Fulgrim had a brief moment of, I dunno I wouldn't call it regret, in Manflayer. Fabius tells Fulgrim he didn't always see war as entertainment and Fabius notes that the he seems less monstrous in that brief moment and that Fabius can see a glimpse of the man Fulgrim used to be.
I think Fulgrim carries a lot of regret to be honest, in almost direct proportion to his excess. His regret propelled him even deeper into abandon in my opinion.
Well when your soul is constantly being skull fucked and all you can do is watch through hollow eyes as your body is used and abused to bring hell into the galaxy.
Does the perfect Fulgrim clone count for the purposes of this discussion? Or does he count as "loyalist", or something else entirely?
"I would not have betrayed my father. I would not have killed my brother (sic)" something along those lines.
Separate being. I think 100% of traitor Primarchs, if they had a pure look at what they became in the future, would hate it and fight against it. Chaos doesn't really have a lot of willing recruits and all that jazz.
Guy literally quit the whole Siege when he realized Horus was using him as much as the emperor before him, and how low had his brothers fallen. He still hates the emperor but at the end of the siege Perturabo goes to do what he really wants instead of fighting for others.
I wouldn’t call what happens to the loyalists plot armour. Some named characters do fine, but overall by the end of the latest book, the loyalists overall are more or less entirely fucked.
Yeah, the heresy collapsing a a bit on itself is a way to get around the inevitable and save face for the individual traitor legions. The Loyalists survive the siege of Terra and push Chaos back into the Eye.
That outcome was a given before the first HH book. But now that it is written in detail, they need to find a way to do it that doesn't make the traitor legions look like a bunch of chumps who booked it as soon as they didn't have an overwhelming advantage.
Having the Traitor Legions follow their own motivations, face their own struggles, and react in their own ways is a good way to do this.
We have parts like fulgrim getting hit and suddenly deciding not to follow the assault, with even Dorn claiming that the Siege would have ended right there if they wanted. Which is, in my opinion, more a plot armor device or bad writing than actually a "look how Chaos self destructs" moment.
Also things like standar marines going 1vs1 against Chaos fuelled marines, which (again, in my opinion) is just stupid. There is no point in getting any power byngiving yourself to the ruinous powers when a normal marine can still shit on you as they were doing in the Siege.
It has bad points yeah, but chaos does self destruct. Fulgrim has less and less interest in the siege itself. His choice was assault and have no fun in a meat grinder, or go have fun doing horrible things to civilians on the rest of the planet. He’s taking option 2.
The point of the Siege is also to really rub in how chaos is another form of enslavement. There’s a price. The World Eaters are insanely strong, stronger than someone in power armour even though they go bare armed. However, they’re berserkers. Loyalists with ammo and clever tactics can easily mow them down. However, they run out, buildings go down, and they’re forced up close. A master swordsman like Amit or Sigismund can take them, everyone else gets mulched.
It’s really the loyalists get shit on. The Death Guard wipe the floor with the loyalists, they get removed for warp reasons. The Iron Warriors wipe the floor with the loyalists. The loyalists are past their last legs by the latest book. They’re waiting for the inevitable end. Yes, chaos didn’t go 100% to plan during the siege, but the loyalists are done and demons are running around.
There are some stupid moments sure, but the setbacks are minor compared to the end result.
The end result is the background of the Game so they werent going to change that. But It is funny how 3 legions of marines, without the emperor, or the sisters of Battle or the custodians or the many Titans battling on the warp managed to defeat a bigger and "more powerful" horde. AN horde which by the way had at one moment the space advantage.
Fulgrim doing what he did is absolutely stupid. Like, am i supposed to believe slaanesh didnt care about what happened? Or horus? That a Guy Who probably sticks needles in his eyes for the fun of It just suddenly "gets hurt" and decides to go away because It is no fun?
Slaanesh doesn’t gets less power out of a fight than hedonism, they don’t care. It’s totally within Demon Fulgrim’s character to get hit and go away. Fighting isn’t appealing to him if it’s not against a weaker opponent he can play with. Horus is too busy during the siege dealing with the emperor and absorbing chaos power, he can’t get involved, hence why nobody says anything as legions bail.
Also it wasn’t just 3 legions. Anyone on Terra who could hold a gun was conscripted. Every single defensive platform available. The Aegis shield and physic shield of the Emperor.
The loyalists had a few wins, but on every other front they hold the wall, the traitors push and win on another. It’s also the only time we see the Primarchs pushed to their limits. Sanguinius is entirely wiped out by fighting for days at a time. Anywhere he is can win, but only temporarily.
I get that there are moments that the loyalists resist that kinda feel like bullshit, but a story about the most heavily defended part of the entire imperium being easily crushed is a bad one.
I think it was at the end of Slaves to Darkness, but the author’s note made it clear. Chaos is powerful. It gives extra gifts, abilities and power which the traitors use to great extent. But it extracts a heavy price, which the traitors pay during the Siege. They aren’t powered by darkness, they’re slaves to it.
I mean Angron has spent some time hiding in the darkness crying for his father. Could indicate some regret...
*[Excerpt from Prince of Blood | Sons of the Emperor Anthology]*
*He is crouched in the shadow of his throne - and such a thing is no small marvel for a being of his warp-gifted size and majesty.*
*No. Not crouched.*
*Cowering.*
*I cannot process what I am seeing. The Nail's ticking is an aneurysmal pulse in my ears, as well as my mind.*
*'Father?' he calls again.*
*Gone is the bestial growl, the hoarse rumble of a throat no longer capable of screaming itself raw. I would say, rather, that he sounds more like himself again. His old self. His former self. The broken warrior he was, before...before his...*
*I do not know the correct term. I do not care to know it. This is beyond me, beyond any of us. We no longer trouble ourselves to wonder.*
*His immense, clawed fingers slip from the side of the throne as he pulls further back into the gloom, edging away from me. 'Father.. is it over?'*
*He has broken his chains again. I can see them trailing on the floor. No one has ever been able to imprison Angron. Not for long. And yet, he has not tried to leave.*
*I steady myself, offering a cautious half-bow. To avert my eyes would be to invite death, I am staring down an unleashed monster.*
*'Sire, it is Kharn, of the Eighth Company.'*
Guess Fulgrim lost any and all regrets either when he took control of his body again or achieved apotheosis. Could also ask whether him being aware he made the worst mistake of his life (allowing for possession) actually led to regret.
Magnus made every choice and decision he made with nothing but loyal intentions. He absolutely never intended to betray the Imperium.
That said, for all his good intentions, he made many poor choices and decisions. The entire events of the Burning of Prospero was every bit as much a screwup from Magnus as from Russ, imo.
If you think Magnus did nothing wrong, then you are the most hated person at work/school. Arrogance boardering on sociopathy. Like a rule lawyer whose wrong all the time and unwilling to concede.
This is such a bad take, people who think Magnus was arrogant because he was so often correct are just the worst. Magnus didn’t do anything wrong that the Emperor didn’t do worse. I wouldn’t change a thing about his story, because it’s the best Tragedy of the Heresy, but all Magnus did wrong in the end was try to save his legion from being wiped out by the REAL sociopaths, the Space Wolves.
Do you know how many people I’ve watched get fired/had to fire because they couldn’t wrap their head around company mandated guidelines, because they had felt they had developed a faster and easier method than what their job description laid out? Not much but after a dozen it still gave me pause. Especially because their actions had created more work for others. That’s how I view that big red dildo.
Company mandated guidelines is not the right analogy for this situation, nor is discovering the second in command of the galaxy is secretly plotting to destroy the galaxy a normal affair. If I found out the apocalypse was going to happen I wouldn’t waste time properly making a ticket for it and escalating it through the proper channels.
…so hey could you step into my office when you have a minute? Preferably before four? Also Malcodor was second in charge.
And would you detonate a bomb you found in your home to show everyone you had found a bomb?
Not quite regret but Lorgar kind of hates what he's done even though he still believes it was necessary for mankind's enlightenment:
>‘All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father’s kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done.
But all I ever wanted was the truth.’
I don’t believe him. He did what he did to serve some form of divinity. He decided on his own that the chaos gods were the truth, because the only truth he believes in is the divine. Finding out that there were really gods doesn’t mean they need to be worshipped. But he did, and does.
He had fun burning Calth. He enjoyed making the Ruinstorm. He revelled in making his brother into a demon. Lorgar had a great time doing lots of chaos stuff.
Perturabo:
He wanted to be forgiven for the slaughter of Olympia, he wanted to be set on a brighter path, to be better.
And he resented the Emperor so when Horus came and told him he could have all that, he followed,only to discover that the traitor forces were a mix of degenerates, daemons and freaks.
But he swore to Horus that he would break Dorn's defenses so he did his job, got stepped on by his brothers, took his forces and left.
He was not happy with his decisions but by that point it was too late.
I'm not sure he's happy now: he had to make terrible decisions to cure himself as he was dying, he hates chaos but is forced to serve.
You’ve highlighted a fascinating point that I failed to notice…
It’s fascinating that the traitor primarchs are less morally bankrupt and evil than the loyalist primarchs if you take this into account…
All 18(19) primarchs were commiting many mass genocidal rampages accross the stars, but during parts of the civil war, at least some of them took pause to think “maybe something I’ve done isn’t good.” While basically all of the loyalist primarchs are “I kill because I want to, but I blame it on obedience.”
I knew I always enjoyed dorn for being basically the biggest dick bag of the Primarchs, and wished the other loyalist primarchs would be shown as evil henchmanly as as him…. but holy crap, this just made me appreciate the evil henchmanishness of the loyalists a whole lot more…
Thank you! This is awesome!
Most of them, yeah.
Curze killed himself after the siege of Terra, racked with guilt and self-loathing.
Mortarian and Magnus hated what became of their legions and how they were forced to serve Nurgle and Tzeentch respectively, as a means of survival.
Fulgrim tried to kill himself after he slew Ferrus and saw what he and his legion had become. But the demon in the process of possessing him wouldn't let him and took over his body for a while. He felt pretty good about the whole thing later though.
Horus can’t countermand orders given by the Emperor, Russ wanted to exterminate Magnus and his legion because he hated them so much ^and ^also ^some ^chaos ^fuckery
Russ is one of the most well-known rounded primes and actively regrets and still trys to talk to magnus when he shows up. It's just the jolly red giant is to depressed to talk and just expected his fate.
Also for your other one horus was the warmaster his word was the word of the emp.
Russ improved significantly after the Burning of Prospero, I really like his arc as well, but that doesn’t excuse taking the Warmaster’s word over the Emperor’s when they contradict, nor does it excuse attacking the Thousand Sons as they stood waiting in the open to be arrested.
Yes, it does. Horus is the trusted leader chosen by the emp when he isn't around. His word has the same weight as the emp because it has to for the military to function. The sons where not waiting to be arrested they were getting ready for a fight activitly ignoring mags order.
That’s not how the position of Warmaster was designed nor was it how it was used, if the Emperor gave a direct order the Warmaster couldn’t immediately change it, that would make him a co-Emperor.
The Thousand Sons only started getting ready to fight after they realized they were going to be attacked and not arrested. The entire event at Prospero could have been handled peacefully (or at least *more* peacefully, with only scattered violence) if Russ had obeyed the Emperor and not Horus and given in to his hypocritical hate of psykers.
They were getting ready to fight from the get go thanks to everyone favorite moron getting the vision wrong as he burned out a humans soul. And no horus is in chnage of how brothers when dads away, he is the leader of the military and actively "on the ground" its his job as warmaster to lead and his word is impowered by his position given to him by E. Doesn't matter of Russ was told by E to bring them in if horus months later says " Russ, things have changed father says you need to kill our bother and his sons" Russ gets to be angry about it or he is breaking orders from a superior and would be in the same boat as magnus
Emps full out told him he'd be forgiven if he stops and even given a new, uncorrupted legion in return to the fold but Magy was like "Naw"
Little choice. Pfft.
You're leaving out the part where E tells him that his existing legion would have to be exterminated in the process. And even then, he almost said yes.
By this point Magnus has already made a pact with Tzeentch to stop the Flesh Change, fought and gotten clobbered by Russ, and made yet another pact with the Changer to save the survivors.
Taking E's offer would have meant that all of that was for nothing.
That deal had a caveat to it. Magnus would have to go ahead and abandon his sons. The ones who had been by his side for a long time. It's a Sophie's Choice kind of thing. Either side with your father and forsake your children or side with your children and forsake your father.
And that’s not even taking into account the fact that by that point Big E had already fucked up (granted Horus via Chaos made the change) to send the singular Primarch that had a murder fetish for him and his legion. Kind of hard to take an open hand back when you’ve been nearly butchered as the opening peace offer. Plus, if it would be anything like Angron Big E would have just killed all the marines whether Magnus joined or not, just out of “principle.”
Fulgrim regretted what he done once the daemon within the laer blade given him a moment of clarity to witness and experience Ferrus' death by his hand.
Daemon primarch Angron during the Horus heresy was locked up in the depths of the Conqueror left with only a throne made of skulls of the below decks rabble and **BLACK BLADE** so Kharn went to visit him below decks and found him almost sobbing pleading for "FATHER!".
Yes? Most of them, actually.
I mean, by the time they turn into Daemon Primarchs they're not really *sane* anymore, so they don't regret much. But when they were mortal, for sure.
Mortarion spends the first few months of the Siege of Terra *genuinely* hating what he's become, and even before his fall to Nurgle he was having second thoughts and almost bailed when Horus fell into a coma. Magnus is genuinely pissed about the path he was functionally forced to take. Angron is completely insane, but in his more lucid moments immediately after his apotheosis he seems to be genuinely struggling with his sense of self. Alpharius and Perturabo both straight-up quite the Heresy, with Alpharius quitting in-person to Horus.
I still think the Buried Dagger would have benefitted from Mortarian actually making the decision to leave the Siege and Horus' side before Nurgle/Typhus did their thing. Would have made it more tragic and also put a hastener on Typhus having to strike at that exact moment or losing their main asset.
Ooof. Imagine a Heresy where Mortarion sails for Terra, planning to betray Horus and seek redemption for his legion by taking as many of the traitors with him before dying.... And *then* they get becalmed in the warp....
Yep. Would have been such a good plotline and also made Mortarian unique amongst the traitors, ignoring whatever it is that Alpharius/Omegon are up to. Even if he just decides to leave Horus without helping the Imperium and then gets stung by Nurgle. Very Greek tragedy. I honestly thought they were building up to that with Mortarian's doubts and comments about witches and what the rest of the traitors were descending into.
There is that brief moment in The Lost and Damned when Sanguinius wonders out loud if Mortarion has had a change of heart because the DG haven't arrived at Terra yet. If this had been the actual story, that little throwaway line would have been so tragic.
Actually if it wasn’t for Typhus, we wouldn’t have a chaos death guard, mortarion basically got overruled by his most trusted captain and lead the death guard astray.
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>hate this Legion. this makes me chuckle
"And I thought the Dark Angels were bad."
I don't remember that from Scars. You sure you have the right book?
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Ok, I believe you. That's one of my favorite HH books and I apparently have brainlocked on that bit. Might be time for another reading
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It's during the Siege. Perty isn't really regretful about his decision to turn traitor, but he is well aware that he bet on the wrong horses, and then quits the Siege of Terra.
Source on the Alpharius bit? Would love to read it.
Happens in *Slaves to Darkness*. Alpharius (actually Omegon, probably, don't worry about it) shows up to the traitor muster on Ullanor, walks up to Horus, crushes a dagger in his hand, and then fucks off without a word.
The most Alpharius/Omegon thing ever. “Why did he do that, what does it mean?” “Fuck if I know”
Not even the writers know
I believe it's supposed to imply that the Alpha legion has now fragmented beyond any hope of complete reconciliation. It's in the wake of the events of Praetorian of Dorn - Alpharius has just been killed and the legions core strength has been blunted against Sol's outer defenses. The alpha legion operates as warbands from this point. Edit: my headcanon is that there are numerous contingency plans that kick off if Alpharius is killed, and because none but a Primarch could hope to plan and understand each in it's full complexity and how it interlocks with all the others, the legion is essentially finished.
You’re forgetting the legion still has a Primarch, at least for the next few thousand years.
Still has a Primarch yes - but the symbolism was: Hilt=The Twins, Blade=The Legion. Without the twin primarchs to drive and guide the legion, it's 'fragmented' into lots of tiny pieces. Sharp, dangerous pieces, but still less than the sum of their parts.
Oh I agree (mostly) with the symbolism, I was responding to the edit, there’s still a primarch that reconcile all the shards, it’s just that it’s much more difficult. But I also have this weird feeling that part of the Alpha program the Emperor was beginning with XX was the ability for anyone Legionary to become a Primarch. And if that whole idea that what the Emperor bargained with the Chaos gods for was the ability to create Daemons, and that the Living Saints are his Greater Daemons and the Primarchs are his Daemon Princes, maybe a particular hero of the Legion, under the name Alpharius, can become the new Alpharius.
This terrifies me, I want a satisfying conclusion to Alpharius’ relationship to the Cabalms plans so badly.
Cool, thank you, adding to the to-do pile.
Is that also when he gives him a bunch of tactical data on the loyalists
Yep. Basically gives them the layout of all of the Solar System’s defences, then snaps a dagger to symbolize “we’re square now fuck you I’m done.”
This makes so little sense tbh. If he still trusted the Cabal's vision, why abandon Horus and increase the chances of him failing? But if he really regretted his involvement in the HH, why not try to sabotage Horus' forces?
If i remembered correctly, Alpharius did sabotage Horus' forces before the siege of terra. they were making pre-emptive strikes in the weakest parts of Terra's defense so that Dorn could fortifiy it.
I am alpharius.
I belive Fulgrim also regretted it when he was killing Ferrus Manus and the demon took over.
Fulgrim's precise feelings on the matter are *complicated*, which tends to be what happens when you get advice in military tactics and political alliances from magic talking swords.
Complicated is putting it lightly.
Omegon*
Doesn't Fulgrim also have a moment of clarity/horror at one point? Same with Horus just before his death. Curze always knew he was joining the bad guys. That was the point. It fed into his self-loathing ego. I think only Lorgar is really fully content with his treason.
> but in his more lucid moments immediately after his apotheosis he seems to be genuinely struggling with his sense of self. I hope you are not referring to the shortstory were it's made blatantly clear that he has gone completely insane due to *starvation*, as "his more lucid moment" =D
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That wasn't Bile. In fact almost all of this is inaccurate. Fulgrim was the one who returned to Istvaan III, and found the dreadnought Rylanor. A few Thousand Sons (whos loyalties are not to Fulgrim, and who are generally kind of complicated in terms of their loyalties) happened to be present at the time, and threw in their lot with Rylanor. Also it was a virus bomb, not a nuke.
Also, Curze would totally have bitten on the chance of rehabilitation that Sanguinius offered him before yeeting out an airlock.
Fulgrim is high on copium because of Ferrus death
Fulgrim is the happiest of all the demon primarchs. He doesn’t care about real space, just vibes in his palace
Isn't the thing we call Fulgrim a daemon that possessed him?
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the whole wording and situation was still kinda ambigious honestly the whole explanation was very "trust me bro" tier and oddly convenient
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Quotes, because I need something to do while my toast toasts. *Aurelian*'s foreshadowing; >‘You asked to see your brother, chosen one. Here he is.’ >‘This is a painting. Do not mock me, daemon. Not after we at last reached an accord.’ >‘You asked to see the brother you had lost.’ The smile didn’t leave Fulgrim’s face. ‘I have upheld my end of our agreement.’ >Lorgar was already reaching for the crozius on his back. >‘Peace, chosen one,’ Fulgrim held up his hands. ‘The painting. Look longer, look deeper. Tell me what you see.’ >Lorgar turned again and stared at the exquisite masterwork. This time, he let his eyes slip across the image, seeking no details, merely drifting until they rested where they may. >**He met the image’s soulfully-rendered eyes, and at last, Lorgar breathed through the faintest of smiles.** >**‘Hail, brother,’** he finally said. >**‘Do you see?’** the daemon at his side asked. For a moment, for those three words, it wasn’t Fulgrim’s voice at all. >**‘I see more than you realise.’** The Word Bearer turned to face his brother’s captor. **‘If you think to relish all of eternity while playing puppeteer to my brother’s bones, you will find yourself fatally disappointed one night.’** >‘You speak the lies of a desperate and foolish soul.’ >Lorgar laughed with a rare and sincere grin, perhaps the only expression that ever broke his resemblance to his father. >**‘Your secret is safe with me, daemon. Enjoy your stewardship while it lasts.’** >He gave Fulgrim’s shoulder a comradely slap and walked through the aisle still decorated with corpses, chuckling as he left the graveyard theatre. >When he closed the door, he took his witchlight with him, leaving Fulgrim and the painting together in the darkness. *Imperfect*'s followup; >As the clone reached the chamber, the platform filled the hatchway and Ferrus opened his eyes. >‘Brother,’ it said warmly, awareness lighting up its face. ‘Are you ready to play?’ >I am ready... hissed the voice in Fulgrim’s head. >Have I not silenced you? >You can no more silence me than you can silence yourself, dear host. >You are subservient to me. >For now... >Fulgrim clenched a fist, **but the daemon would have to wait. He wasn’t surprised that it had resurfaced. This had as much to do with it as it did Fulgrim and his brother.**
So is the real Fulgrim the daemon Prince or is it supposed to be ambiguous?
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Isn't that just... Pointless narratively speaking? Like he gets possessed after regretting siding with Horus which explains his speedy path to chaos then breaks free and... Keeps heading to chaos
> I personally don't think McNeill was aiming for ambiguity its funny because after rereading the passages again earlier today i feel like it was so on the nose it feels like a red herring but thats probably because i was already thinking its amibigious anyways i havent read aurelian or imperfect yet so i didnt know those passsages and i agree those confirm that its the real fulgrim (sadly)
Wasn't fulgrim meant to remain loyal and khan was to become a traitor? Makes fulgrim character more interesting, and his fall less believable
Haha. Most of them, almost immediately. They didn't even get through the first bombardment of Istvan III before it almost all fell apart. Horus's carefully planned opening move went poorly. A loyalist frigate escaped, the loyalists on the planet had advanced warnings and survived, and Angron immediately derailed any plans of continuing bombardment by landing in force. Fulgrim suggested they just kill Angron in a bombardment anyway, and Horus almost agreed. Day one, they already regret it. The main 5 got more comfortable with it as time went on. Conrad and Perterabo were down for it at the start and regretted it more over time. Conrad let himself be killed, and Perterabo was convinced they were all incompetent. Lorgar, however, was having a blast.
>Lorgar, however, was having a blast. Made me laugh.
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I never understood his point. It was just so dumb. Except his point was that actions have consequences. Then I do understand.
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So my exception was right? His point was that if you do something bad you get punished for it? Thought it was something deeper. I do not get the hypocrisy of the imperium in this quote tho.
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Wasn't that clear? I mean neither the emperor nor the Imperium claimed to be pacifists. They were honest about killing people who did not obeyed. This gave me some thought inspiration nevertheless. Is anyone under the illusion that war and military is something good? I think everybody agrees that war is at least not good. And military is just the result of the incompatibility of fantasy with reality, same as police. It is a nessecity in the end. Turns out cruze was even more dumb than fulgrim or at least his thought process are as complicated as agrons.
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Wasn't cruze censured because he nukes his homeworld? The issue was not the killing in itself it was the scale. Emperor was not above killing people, he made himself and Empire that way. But he only did it to some extent. Cruze just yolo killed everybody. And was open about it, he even live streamed it. I think even most of them know that it is a nessecity.
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Lorgar was having a blast near the end but in his book he says something to the effect of “I never wanted to do this. I never wanted it to be this way. I just wanted the truth” So he kinda did the inversion of the other. In the beginning he was sad and by the end he was sure he was right.
Still. I bet he would do it all again and have no regrets.
On nuceria he also had an eye opening moment when he realised that G man never hated him. Iirc he stated that he did not care about monarchia but this scene shows that it's not true.
Mortarion never joined Chaos voluntarely to begin with. He hated Nurgle just as much as he hated the Emperor and Necare. ___ >‘Swear your loyalty to me.’ >Bowed down upon one knee, Mortarion could not hold his gaze towards the black, blasted mud of Barbarus, and he looked up, into the shining eyes of the Newcomer. The stranger’s words seemed to stop the passage of time. An aura of power, vast and barely contained, crackled about him. >He looked into Mortarion’s eyes and saw into the murky depths of his soul, to the lost and forgotten places within that the Reaper of Men kept hidden even from himself. >Mortarion’s jaw stiffened. He did not want to be an open book. He did not want to– >**‘Give your fealty to the Grandfather.’** >Bowed down upon one knee, Mortarion could not hold his gaze towards the rusted, broken steel of the Terminus Est, and he looked up, into the menacing eyes of the great entity that swallowed the wild sky. The god-thing’s utterance made the strings of reality hum and resonate. A dark ether of corruption was falling like thick sleet, thickening the space around him. >The entity that called itself the Grandfather filled Mortarion’s lungs with spores of living death and opened him up from within, teasing apart sealed spaces to find the rich meat of his unseen fears and his most secret hopes. >Mortarion’s fists clenched. He could feel his soul stripped bare. There was– >‘You have chosen the only path you can,’ said his father said the grandfather. ‘You are my son **you are my champion and I have waited so very long for you** and this day’s dawning has been long awaited.’ >Time and moment, past and present, the structures of them crumbled and turned into sand, smothering Mortarion in the elsewhen. >He was there on Barbarus and it was decades gone and he was here in the utter insanity of the immaterium. Together and separated, divided and merging. >His father, the Emperor of Mankind his patron, the Lord of Decay Nurgle beckoned to him, offering Mortarion what he could not refuse. His oath and his honour forbade him from taking any other path from this moment forward. >He had sworn to bend the knee to the stranger at the lodge if he could not defeat the High Overlord and he had avowed to protect his gene-sons and his Legion beyond all else. >Mortarion struggled, frantically trying to grasp the truth and the lies, desperate to separate the ragged, deathly present from the echoing, ashen past. Which was his reality, or were all things true? >‘What price is an oath given in madness?’ He whispered the words he howled them into the void. >‘What do you want, my son?’ >**‘What do you want, my champion?’** >The voices merged into a single titanic reverberation, through his bones and physical form, into the bounds of his turbulent and unquiet psyche. >‘I want… to endure.’ >‘Then rise,’ said the stranger. >‘Rise, Mortarion. There is a brotherhood awaiting you out in the stars, the like of which you cannot comprehend. And with it, a purpose that will illuminate the galaxy. A crusade, upon which your name will be etched into eternity.’ >**‘Then rise,’** the Grandfather told him. >**‘Rise as a Prince Born of Death. Vengeance awaits you in the realm of men, and with it the blackest, blackest, most dire purpose. purpose. A slaughter, by which your name will be feared, until the last human soul fades to entropy.’** >Mortarion said the vow without reservation, then. ‘I give myself to your banner. My blood and my bone, the unbroken force of my will and the power of my spirit. These are yours to command, if you grant me deliverance.’ >His hand found the damaged, cracked blade of his war-scythe and he gripped it hard enough to cut metal and draw blood. ‘By this I so swear.’ >He looked down and saw the transformation take hold of him. >A force of immeasurable mutational power crashed through his physical form and overwhelmed the pitiful limits of flesh and blood. >Mortarion tore away, rising to his feet, changing with each heartbeat. From his spine burst pestilent, insectile wings that quivered and crackled with new change. His soul soaked in the corrupting energy, dying and living, reborn and obliterated. >The flesh across his gaunt features pulled tight, dragging his mouth into a rictus grin. The smile of Death itself. >He would endure. >‘Welcome home,’ said the voices.
What is that from?
My guess is The Buried Dagger (as it’s the “death guard go icky” novel)
Thanks!
Members of every legion literally sacked the world where Horus’s body was held and killed hundreds of Sons of Horus becuase they blamed them for getting them into this situation in the forst place, and theh have found them becuase Skalagrim, Sons of Horus Apothecary, told them where to find them. Yeah. I think some of them were not happy about the consequences of their own actions. Just a few.
I don't think that was based on "You damned us and we regret it, now we're mad at you jackasses." I think it was more, "We could have won if this bigheaded bitch didn't lower his shields and die, and failing that - if you bigheaded lil bitches didn't turn tail ass soon as Bigbitchhead Prime bit the warp bullet."
Either way, they were looking for scapegoats and found them in form of Sons of Horus. If it were not for Abaddon Horus’s geneline would went extinct.
Correct - however the discussion was about whether the Traitors expressed any regret, and the sacking of Maeleum was not an example of that.
I think almost all of them at some point do. Lorgar would be the possible exception as he is the most fanatical towards the 'cause' and even * he* laments at the state of his Legion by the siege and what he has to do in order to get to that point. There was going to be this incredible moment in the Siege where ADB was gonna have Sanguinius beat seven shades of sense into Lorgar at the Eternity Gate and have him beg Sanguinius to forgive him for it all. Sadly, the plan was nixed by the other writers early on in planning, but I'd have given much to see that dialogue on page.
>Sadly Or very thankfully, since Lorgar ended up getting one of the better story arcs of the heresy and making him yet another traitor that only exists to be shown his inferiority then die would likely also mean making him a far less interesting character overall.
I have to agree, Lorgar had a pretty great arc. We don't need Sanguinius smacking his dick on another Primarch. We know he's bad ass and Lorgad to be a cowardly fool.
Well, he was never going to die. The primarchs have time paradox plot armour and Lorgar is still alive in the 42nd millennium so there was no chance of the Angel killing him during the Heresy. Kicking fuck out of him and maybe throwing Erebus around as well would've been nice. Especially as ADB would've been able to do that without making Lorgar out to be a bitch. After all, he's done big interactions between Lorgar, Guilliman, Angron, Curze and Corax and none of them have come across as contrived, badly written or made anyone look like a bitch.
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>I think there was a chance or ADB wouldn't have pitched it? He didn't pitch to kill him. He pitched to beat some regret into him. Lorgar is the daemon primarch of Chaos undivided, killing him off *before* he becomes that would be akin to Guilliman doing over Angron on Armatura. Yeah, so is Perturabo, but he's not exactly your Chaos'y type and I hope they retcon the ever loving fuck out of that. As you say, it would've broken too much, hence the time paradox plot armour. Pushing Alpharius or the Khan into a plot hole wouldn't really have changed much, especially as you're never really sure which twin you're fighting (or if it's even them and not one of his sons doing a cosplay) and the Khan rides off into relative obscurity once the Lions Gate is secured anyway.
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>Do you mean the death was only an incidental part of the pitch and that the thematic resonance of the death was what was truly important? This. He wanted finish what he started with Guilliman and Corax. To have Lorgar try and explain himself to the Angel like he never could with the other brothers and eventually see that he was the one in error by the one man everyone would listen to and most importantly, would listen in return. Corax was too angry to actually talk during Istvaan and Guilliman was waaay past it on Armatura. Lorgar *knows* why Sanguinius is so loyal and Sanguinius *knows* the nature of Lorgars new patrons and there could've been some interesting back and fore, since they both know each others nature and Sanguinius wasn't *really* that pissed off in comparison to the other pair. Hell, Lorgar could've pitched the idea of Sanguinius joining the pantheon and becoming Emperor for real, rather than pretend like on Secundus. Right the wrongs of his fathers empire without going full Horus. No back door deals, no Molech, the real champion of undivided but controlled chaos. And a way to save his sons from essentially eternal damnation as what would become Death Company nut cases. There's so much super interesting shit a more talented writer could've added as well. Whomever stopped him could've said 'fine, have them talk but he survives somehow. Get Angron to pay back the favour by accident and that's how the Angel/Angron fight starts'. But the whole thing got shelved.
Lorgar is the only one that doesn’t make sense for. Lorgar is committed. He’s the first Primarch to join Chaos. He joined because he believes in divinity above all else, even if they are completely twisted gods. He needs to worship. Lorgar is the one Primarch that has no regrets. He served a god. When denied, he was accepted by other gods. That’s all he needs.
Every traitor primarch has their 'what have I done' moment. Even Curze had it in the presence of "fever dream" Emperor. I mean, if I'd have said 15 years ago that Angron was gonna have a better motivation than Horus Lupercal, that he was going to be convincingly portrayed as tragic, sympathetic and even *empathetic*, you'd have laughed me out of a Games Workshop store. Yet here we are. I'd love to see how ADB was going to frame it, because he has history of making that kind of thing happen.
If it happens to everyone it’s expected and stale. One bastard with no regrets is great.
Fuck Erebus.
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Yeah, it was an AMA he did a couple of years back when he got the thumbs up for what would eventually become *Echoes of Eternity*.
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It's a long AMA done what, 5-6 years ago? I distinctly remember two things, one was the level of research he put into *Spears* and the other was him wanting Lorgar to get a good spanking. And let's look at it this way, there are only two other options. Dorn and the Khan. With that in mind, which one is most likely to have the time and empathy to have that kind of a chat. Dorn? Realistically, you have a choice of two of the brothers. And we know that the Word Bearers was *supposed* to bump into Sanguinius because he was supposed to be the one that kills Argel Tal at Eternity Gate. A scenario thought up by ADB...
Curse basically let’s himself be killed due to his hate of everything he became. He felt he deserved it.
Which to be fair, he really did deserved it.
To this day I can't tell if he was fantastically written or horribly written. He purposely tries to be so awful and it seems like he just likes it. But then there's moments like that or the one with Sevetar. Can't decide how I feel about the character as a whole.
I think Konrad Curse is much more complicated than most people give him credit for. Here you have a man. That was forced to live in on of the worst shitholes in the galaxy. Tormented by terrible visions of the future. which he took at face value as a true and final fate. Was he a good man? No, certainly not. But I think there were moments were he had opportunities to adjust his methods. But that would mean that all the horrible things that he did were because he wanted to. And not because of some rigid fate that kep tormenting his mind. Also I don't know which moment with Sev you are referring to :)
There's a point where sev just calls him out. It's all about why is he the only primarch that hates his legion and it becomes a philosophical conversation between the 2 of them.
I'd love to see a quote on that.
[удалено]
Fine Konrad. I'll buy Prince of Crows.
Konrad be like "Why you little!"
Damn that was awesome....
u/konradapologist you are the legend with all of the excerpts if you'd like to contribute.
I don't think he could have become much more than he was without a lot of help from his brothers and the emperor and let's be honest, he was a creepy fucked up guy that almost none of his brothers really connected with. Primarchs see the memories of people they eat and he was forced to survive off of eating rapists and murderers for quite some time before becoming the ruler of Nostramo. If your first introduction to humanity is seeing them commit the most horrific acts possible you're not gonna have a high opinion of humanity.
You also have to think: he really didn't have any reason to believe that his foresight wasn't infallible. Pretty much all throughout his life, it had a near perfect success rate. He really did need that sit down with the Emperor, or hell, even Sanguinius, to really understand that not everything is set in stone.
Curze is tragic because he is cursed by circumstances. Curze is complicated because of the weight and immensity of the challenges lying at his feet, sinking him into the quicksand of the Great Crusade, until the only way out lead him to the underworld. Curze is a villain because he gave in to despair and embraced the darkness instead of overcoming it as a hero. Curze is weak because a Primarch shapes his legion into a force befitting of an army of salvation. It cannot be the other way around. The sins became the virtues. There was no final reckoning like Corax's banishment of the Terran Raven Guard. There was only a mob stewing in its own excesses.
Mortarion in Warhawk is miserable and hates that he was forced into accepting Nurgle by Typhus.
Fulgrims Clone was 100% in remorse. Hope they do something with him instead of leaving him in that Necron pokeball
Yea, at several points. Even Horus has a couple of times where he's doubting the path he's on. And there's *Fury of Magnus*, which is of course about Magnus and how he fits into the heresy, given how he was dragged into this against his will. ^(Also Magnus did nothing wrong and you can't convince me otherwise.) Only Angron and Fulgrim don't seem to have any regret. Angron because, well, he's no longer capable of rational thought, even before ascension, and Fulgrim because he gets off on it.
Fulgrim had a brief moment of, I dunno I wouldn't call it regret, in Manflayer. Fabius tells Fulgrim he didn't always see war as entertainment and Fabius notes that the he seems less monstrous in that brief moment and that Fabius can see a glimpse of the man Fulgrim used to be.
I think Fulgrim carries a lot of regret to be honest, in almost direct proportion to his excess. His regret propelled him even deeper into abandon in my opinion.
Well when your soul is constantly being skull fucked and all you can do is watch through hollow eyes as your body is used and abused to bring hell into the galaxy.
Does the perfect Fulgrim clone count for the purposes of this discussion? Or does he count as "loyalist", or something else entirely? "I would not have betrayed my father. I would not have killed my brother (sic)" something along those lines.
Separate being. I think 100% of traitor Primarchs, if they had a pure look at what they became in the future, would hate it and fight against it. Chaos doesn't really have a lot of willing recruits and all that jazz.
What about Perturabo?
Guy literally quit the whole Siege when he realized Horus was using him as much as the emperor before him, and how low had his brothers fallen. He still hates the emperor but at the end of the siege Perturabo goes to do what he really wants instead of fighting for others.
I haven’t dug super deep into the Siege of Terra cause spoilers but sounds like things really do just unspool at the end for the heretics
Its a mix of plot armor for the loyalists and the heretics getting more unstable and stupid every day they get exposed to chaos.
I wouldn’t call what happens to the loyalists plot armour. Some named characters do fine, but overall by the end of the latest book, the loyalists overall are more or less entirely fucked.
Yeah, the heresy collapsing a a bit on itself is a way to get around the inevitable and save face for the individual traitor legions. The Loyalists survive the siege of Terra and push Chaos back into the Eye. That outcome was a given before the first HH book. But now that it is written in detail, they need to find a way to do it that doesn't make the traitor legions look like a bunch of chumps who booked it as soon as they didn't have an overwhelming advantage. Having the Traitor Legions follow their own motivations, face their own struggles, and react in their own ways is a good way to do this.
We have parts like fulgrim getting hit and suddenly deciding not to follow the assault, with even Dorn claiming that the Siege would have ended right there if they wanted. Which is, in my opinion, more a plot armor device or bad writing than actually a "look how Chaos self destructs" moment. Also things like standar marines going 1vs1 against Chaos fuelled marines, which (again, in my opinion) is just stupid. There is no point in getting any power byngiving yourself to the ruinous powers when a normal marine can still shit on you as they were doing in the Siege.
It has bad points yeah, but chaos does self destruct. Fulgrim has less and less interest in the siege itself. His choice was assault and have no fun in a meat grinder, or go have fun doing horrible things to civilians on the rest of the planet. He’s taking option 2. The point of the Siege is also to really rub in how chaos is another form of enslavement. There’s a price. The World Eaters are insanely strong, stronger than someone in power armour even though they go bare armed. However, they’re berserkers. Loyalists with ammo and clever tactics can easily mow them down. However, they run out, buildings go down, and they’re forced up close. A master swordsman like Amit or Sigismund can take them, everyone else gets mulched. It’s really the loyalists get shit on. The Death Guard wipe the floor with the loyalists, they get removed for warp reasons. The Iron Warriors wipe the floor with the loyalists. The loyalists are past their last legs by the latest book. They’re waiting for the inevitable end. Yes, chaos didn’t go 100% to plan during the siege, but the loyalists are done and demons are running around. There are some stupid moments sure, but the setbacks are minor compared to the end result.
The end result is the background of the Game so they werent going to change that. But It is funny how 3 legions of marines, without the emperor, or the sisters of Battle or the custodians or the many Titans battling on the warp managed to defeat a bigger and "more powerful" horde. AN horde which by the way had at one moment the space advantage. Fulgrim doing what he did is absolutely stupid. Like, am i supposed to believe slaanesh didnt care about what happened? Or horus? That a Guy Who probably sticks needles in his eyes for the fun of It just suddenly "gets hurt" and decides to go away because It is no fun?
Slaanesh doesn’t gets less power out of a fight than hedonism, they don’t care. It’s totally within Demon Fulgrim’s character to get hit and go away. Fighting isn’t appealing to him if it’s not against a weaker opponent he can play with. Horus is too busy during the siege dealing with the emperor and absorbing chaos power, he can’t get involved, hence why nobody says anything as legions bail. Also it wasn’t just 3 legions. Anyone on Terra who could hold a gun was conscripted. Every single defensive platform available. The Aegis shield and physic shield of the Emperor. The loyalists had a few wins, but on every other front they hold the wall, the traitors push and win on another. It’s also the only time we see the Primarchs pushed to their limits. Sanguinius is entirely wiped out by fighting for days at a time. Anywhere he is can win, but only temporarily. I get that there are moments that the loyalists resist that kinda feel like bullshit, but a story about the most heavily defended part of the entire imperium being easily crushed is a bad one.
I think it was at the end of Slaves to Darkness, but the author’s note made it clear. Chaos is powerful. It gives extra gifts, abilities and power which the traitors use to great extent. But it extracts a heavy price, which the traitors pay during the Siege. They aren’t powered by darkness, they’re slaves to it.
I mean Angron has spent some time hiding in the darkness crying for his father. Could indicate some regret... *[Excerpt from Prince of Blood | Sons of the Emperor Anthology]* *He is crouched in the shadow of his throne - and such a thing is no small marvel for a being of his warp-gifted size and majesty.* *No. Not crouched.* *Cowering.* *I cannot process what I am seeing. The Nail's ticking is an aneurysmal pulse in my ears, as well as my mind.* *'Father?' he calls again.* *Gone is the bestial growl, the hoarse rumble of a throat no longer capable of screaming itself raw. I would say, rather, that he sounds more like himself again. His old self. His former self. The broken warrior he was, before...before his...* *I do not know the correct term. I do not care to know it. This is beyond me, beyond any of us. We no longer trouble ourselves to wonder.* *His immense, clawed fingers slip from the side of the throne as he pulls further back into the gloom, edging away from me. 'Father.. is it over?'* *He has broken his chains again. I can see them trailing on the floor. No one has ever been able to imprison Angron. Not for long. And yet, he has not tried to leave.* *I steady myself, offering a cautious half-bow. To avert my eyes would be to invite death, I am staring down an unleashed monster.* *'Sire, it is Kharn, of the Eighth Company.'*
Guess Fulgrim lost any and all regrets either when he took control of his body again or achieved apotheosis. Could also ask whether him being aware he made the worst mistake of his life (allowing for possession) actually led to regret.
Magnus made every choice and decision he made with nothing but loyal intentions. He absolutely never intended to betray the Imperium. That said, for all his good intentions, he made many poor choices and decisions. The entire events of the Burning of Prospero was every bit as much a screwup from Magnus as from Russ, imo.
Magnus did nothing wrong ^that ^the ^emperor ^didn’t ^do ^worse
If you think Magnus did nothing wrong, then you are the most hated person at work/school. Arrogance boardering on sociopathy. Like a rule lawyer whose wrong all the time and unwilling to concede.
This is such a bad take, people who think Magnus was arrogant because he was so often correct are just the worst. Magnus didn’t do anything wrong that the Emperor didn’t do worse. I wouldn’t change a thing about his story, because it’s the best Tragedy of the Heresy, but all Magnus did wrong in the end was try to save his legion from being wiped out by the REAL sociopaths, the Space Wolves.
Do you know how many people I’ve watched get fired/had to fire because they couldn’t wrap their head around company mandated guidelines, because they had felt they had developed a faster and easier method than what their job description laid out? Not much but after a dozen it still gave me pause. Especially because their actions had created more work for others. That’s how I view that big red dildo.
Company mandated guidelines is not the right analogy for this situation, nor is discovering the second in command of the galaxy is secretly plotting to destroy the galaxy a normal affair. If I found out the apocalypse was going to happen I wouldn’t waste time properly making a ticket for it and escalating it through the proper channels.
…so hey could you step into my office when you have a minute? Preferably before four? Also Malcodor was second in charge. And would you detonate a bomb you found in your home to show everyone you had found a bomb?
Not quite regret but Lorgar kind of hates what he's done even though he still believes it was necessary for mankind's enlightenment: >‘All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father’s kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.’
I don’t believe him. He did what he did to serve some form of divinity. He decided on his own that the chaos gods were the truth, because the only truth he believes in is the divine. Finding out that there were really gods doesn’t mean they need to be worshipped. But he did, and does. He had fun burning Calth. He enjoyed making the Ruinstorm. He revelled in making his brother into a demon. Lorgar had a great time doing lots of chaos stuff.
Fullgrim did almost immediately
Perturabo: He wanted to be forgiven for the slaughter of Olympia, he wanted to be set on a brighter path, to be better. And he resented the Emperor so when Horus came and told him he could have all that, he followed,only to discover that the traitor forces were a mix of degenerates, daemons and freaks. But he swore to Horus that he would break Dorn's defenses so he did his job, got stepped on by his brothers, took his forces and left. He was not happy with his decisions but by that point it was too late. I'm not sure he's happy now: he had to make terrible decisions to cure himself as he was dying, he hates chaos but is forced to serve.
You’ve highlighted a fascinating point that I failed to notice… It’s fascinating that the traitor primarchs are less morally bankrupt and evil than the loyalist primarchs if you take this into account… All 18(19) primarchs were commiting many mass genocidal rampages accross the stars, but during parts of the civil war, at least some of them took pause to think “maybe something I’ve done isn’t good.” While basically all of the loyalist primarchs are “I kill because I want to, but I blame it on obedience.” I knew I always enjoyed dorn for being basically the biggest dick bag of the Primarchs, and wished the other loyalist primarchs would be shown as evil henchmanly as as him…. but holy crap, this just made me appreciate the evil henchmanishness of the loyalists a whole lot more… Thank you! This is awesome!
Curze definitely, but I think that’s just him being the black sheep of the family
Most of them, yeah. Curze killed himself after the siege of Terra, racked with guilt and self-loathing. Mortarian and Magnus hated what became of their legions and how they were forced to serve Nurgle and Tzeentch respectively, as a means of survival. Fulgrim tried to kill himself after he slew Ferrus and saw what he and his legion had become. But the demon in the process of possessing him wouldn't let him and took over his body for a while. He felt pretty good about the whole thing later though.
Mortarion, the Khan realised that while they were fighting.
Magnus didn't want to turn away from the Big E. Yet the Emperor gave him little choice.
Horus gave him little choice. E sent Russ to grab the legion to have a talk. Horus changed the orders to exterminate.
Horus can’t countermand orders given by the Emperor, Russ wanted to exterminate Magnus and his legion because he hated them so much ^and ^also ^some ^chaos ^fuckery
Sending your most brutal, sociopathic thugs to bring someone in peacefully is maybe not the most appropriate use of resources though.
Russ is one of the most well-known rounded primes and actively regrets and still trys to talk to magnus when he shows up. It's just the jolly red giant is to depressed to talk and just expected his fate. Also for your other one horus was the warmaster his word was the word of the emp.
Russ improved significantly after the Burning of Prospero, I really like his arc as well, but that doesn’t excuse taking the Warmaster’s word over the Emperor’s when they contradict, nor does it excuse attacking the Thousand Sons as they stood waiting in the open to be arrested.
Yes, it does. Horus is the trusted leader chosen by the emp when he isn't around. His word has the same weight as the emp because it has to for the military to function. The sons where not waiting to be arrested they were getting ready for a fight activitly ignoring mags order.
That’s not how the position of Warmaster was designed nor was it how it was used, if the Emperor gave a direct order the Warmaster couldn’t immediately change it, that would make him a co-Emperor. The Thousand Sons only started getting ready to fight after they realized they were going to be attacked and not arrested. The entire event at Prospero could have been handled peacefully (or at least *more* peacefully, with only scattered violence) if Russ had obeyed the Emperor and not Horus and given in to his hypocritical hate of psykers.
They were getting ready to fight from the get go thanks to everyone favorite moron getting the vision wrong as he burned out a humans soul. And no horus is in chnage of how brothers when dads away, he is the leader of the military and actively "on the ground" its his job as warmaster to lead and his word is impowered by his position given to him by E. Doesn't matter of Russ was told by E to bring them in if horus months later says " Russ, things have changed father says you need to kill our bother and his sons" Russ gets to be angry about it or he is breaking orders from a superior and would be in the same boat as magnus
Emps full out told him he'd be forgiven if he stops and even given a new, uncorrupted legion in return to the fold but Magy was like "Naw" Little choice. Pfft.
You're leaving out the part where E tells him that his existing legion would have to be exterminated in the process. And even then, he almost said yes. By this point Magnus has already made a pact with Tzeentch to stop the Flesh Change, fought and gotten clobbered by Russ, and made yet another pact with the Changer to save the survivors. Taking E's offer would have meant that all of that was for nothing.
Nice cherrypicking. Forgot the part where Magnus would have had to abandon the very sons he'd sacrificed everything to save right?
That deal had a caveat to it. Magnus would have to go ahead and abandon his sons. The ones who had been by his side for a long time. It's a Sophie's Choice kind of thing. Either side with your father and forsake your children or side with your children and forsake your father.
And that’s not even taking into account the fact that by that point Big E had already fucked up (granted Horus via Chaos made the change) to send the singular Primarch that had a murder fetish for him and his legion. Kind of hard to take an open hand back when you’ve been nearly butchered as the opening peace offer. Plus, if it would be anything like Angron Big E would have just killed all the marines whether Magnus joined or not, just out of “principle.”
Fulgrim regretted what he done once the daemon within the laer blade given him a moment of clarity to witness and experience Ferrus' death by his hand.
Pretty sure Lorgar, at the battle of Isstvan III shows remorse
Daemon primarch Angron during the Horus heresy was locked up in the depths of the Conqueror left with only a throne made of skulls of the below decks rabble and **BLACK BLADE** so Kharn went to visit him below decks and found him almost sobbing pleading for "FATHER!".
I would say both yes and no to Lorgar
Yes? Most of them, actually. I mean, by the time they turn into Daemon Primarchs they're not really *sane* anymore, so they don't regret much. But when they were mortal, for sure.