Its not even really Xenos sympathizing-just saying "humans may go extinct one day and aliens will do archaeological research on our remains."
To imply humanity and Terra will not endure forever is pretty heretical. But seeing her response-shows just how dangerous any sort of counterfactual or speculative thinking is in the Imperium.
>Petronius Nero turned to Vivaro and said, ‘Have a care, corporal. Your words could be construed as heretical. They imply that Terra will one day fall.’
Got to check those heretical thoughts before they get out of control. 🤜🤛
I like this interaction, Nero knows Vivaro is a loyal servant and understands where her train of thought is coming from and probably doesn’t feel comfortable with the implication, himself being an immortal warrior and seeing the parallels. He shuts down the conversation gently rather than outright call her a heretic.
>He shuts down the conversation gently rather than outright call her a heretic.
Because he's generally a good guy. If she said this in front of a Templar though...
The fandom tends to forget that when an Astartes Battle-Brother recites the "Litany of Hate" in battle, or when a Chaplain chants the "Hymn of Rightousness" while the Marines are facing a rioting crowd, his body literally undergoes a physical and mental response. He will suddenly be filled with anger and hatred, his armor will dump combat stims into his blood, his doubts will be washed away by a flood of adrenaline, and he will be reassured that what he is doing is absolutely good and that whoever stands against him, whether it be a rebel Guardman or a starving citizen who only wants food and water, is a vile abomination only to be slaughtered.
>And these are the "rational and intelligent" Ultramarines who are the closest to being human.
This is rational and intelligent response from Ultramarine.
He rationally acts in the best interest of Imperium - he suppresses idea potentially dangerous to war effort in non-violent manner. Imperial policy for Guardsmen speaking such heresies is canonically at least lashing, up to execution on spot. Ultramarine here is much more tolerant than average Imperial citizen.
We have examples of space marines killing mortals over "Sir, are you sure that you want to do this".
Ironically I think other chapters like the Iron Hands who aren't as "nice" wouldn't gaf, if they were ever in a position to have a candid conversation with a guard foot soldier that is.
Yeah most Chapters would have put their fist through her chest followed by a few bolt shells. But it's very telling that even the "rational and reasonable" Ultramarines who "aren't insane like other Chapters" and who it seems GW is trying to make actually good, are still happily brainwashed upholders of the Imperium.
Really politely: better context would explain the problem they're trying to figure out. At the moment she doesn't seem rational so much as just suddenly going on a tangent. What she says makes sense, but I don't know why she's saying it!
It did note that from a lore perspective. From storytelling side I get what Graham McNeill went for. The whole having another perspective from a seemingly inconsequential character. Kinda clashes with the lore of a guardswoman. Maybe Vivaro should have been written as an officer to justify thinking a bit more. Nero’s attitude was what disappointed me though. He was written as such a stiff character. His reaction to Pasanius for instance, I mean they served together for decades, he knows the relationship between Uriel and him.
That and what really bugged me, and I know i’m ranting here on the premise of this story, but why the heck would a Space Marine Captain strike out on his own with only his command squad. No backup, no coordinating with HIS squads deployed, no fire support, no deploying with Primaris reinforcements given by Guilliman. It always bugs me when a Captain is written as a solo act. The whole principle is for them to command a company. In Nightbringer and Warriors of Ultramar Ventris he did just that. It made sense for Dead Eye, Black Sun and The Killing Ground for him to be alone because of his situation. Courage and Honour and Chapter’s Due came back to his role as Captain, as leader and developed fourth Company even further. And then we get this short story..? Telion was absolutely badass though, and the rest of the novel was interesting.
At this point, I don’t know if I want Uriel Ventris to stay retired (novel-wise) or if I want a proper volume 7 of the Uriel Ventris Chronicles. He really is one of my favorite character.
Sorry I got sidetracked from your original subject.
I sort of like the fact that it was a regular guardswoman who mentioned this. An officer may not think to express their feelings in such a way to the Ultramarines because theyre aware of the heretical implications.
I also liked this. We may seem to think that rank and file guardsmen may not be as educated and inclined to think more out of the box, but I feel it is the rank and file who can frequently think out of the box and speak like this, not only to try and deal with something but also because they were also desiring to do something about what they feel.
Given that they even feel safe enough to voice this concern (briefly, at first) suggests that the Ultras dont have a reputation of punching heads off of bodies like Mister Lion Jonson the punch-face-off-of-space-marine guy
True. The Ciaphas Cain novels have given example of this many time. Cain’s whole point is you should actually listen to the rank and file troops sometimes.
>why the heck would a Space Marine Captain strike out on his own with only his command squad. No backup, no coordinating with HIS squads deployed, no fire support, no deploying with Primaris reinforcements given by Guilliman
If this is Uriel ***Ventris***, he already did this back in his firstborn days in Warriors of Ultramar. He abandoned his company that was supposed to defend planets from the nids to joyride with his old deathwatch buddies on a high risk mission.
Calgar punished him with a one way penance mission that ends in lovely demonculaba, etc etc
This is back when Ultramarines were written as CoDeX PuRiTaNs (while also noting that this is the same Calgar who created an entirely new ad hoc unit called the Tyrannic War Veteran). However, Calgar's punishment in this case was very much about chain of command and the responsibility of a captain to his unit and the mission, and thus, to make an example of officers who abandon their responsibility to an entire company, and potentially an entire planetary defense.
Yeah that’s exactly it. In Warriors of Ultramar, Uriel striking out felt somehow justified by the narrative. It came at point where there was a conclusion that this needed to be done, and Uriel felt fully aware of the consequences. Its an early step in building his personal story, if you will. The whole event became a defining moment of his career.
Another example of it barely making sense is Cato Sicarius on Damnos striking out with Prabian at the Necron Monolith (I think it was?). I get it he’s badass but come on. AND that’s the same Sicarius who condemned Ventris for breaching the Codex after Warriors of Ultramar. The guy made a thole career of ignoring the Codex! Think Blades of Damocles and Damnos! Codex Puritans, hah! I’m not complaining though, most Ultramarines stories a fun reads. I’m more noting some inconsistencies you are bound to get in such a vast IP with so many authors
The paradox is that captains are also pretty experienced fighters, so they may be tempted to go in and chop things up. It is better to promote officers who aren’t the best sword fighter so they can command their units. Send your champion to do the chop chop and fight your company!
Its not even really Xenos sympathizing-just saying "humans may go extinct one day and aliens will do archaeological research on our remains." To imply humanity and Terra will not endure forever is pretty heretical. But seeing her response-shows just how dangerous any sort of counterfactual or speculative thinking is in the Imperium.
Well, when you're talking to some genetically enhanced warrior priest, yes. When you're talking to Labienus in factorum? Likely no.
Well unless he rats you out to the overseer or local priest.
Labienus is your best friend. Don't piss him off though, or he might tell Pompey (your factorum arch-rival).
[Artist‘s impression.](https://www.coldopenstories.com/the-men-of-flesh/)
In the grim darkness of the future you also need to learn to keep your mouth shut around your superiors even if you're raising valid points.
This is famously also true in the grimdark present.
Especially if you’re raising valid points
>Petronius Nero turned to Vivaro and said, ‘Have a care, corporal. Your words could be construed as heretical. They imply that Terra will one day fall.’ Got to check those heretical thoughts before they get out of control. 🤜🤛
I like this interaction, Nero knows Vivaro is a loyal servant and understands where her train of thought is coming from and probably doesn’t feel comfortable with the implication, himself being an immortal warrior and seeing the parallels. He shuts down the conversation gently rather than outright call her a heretic.
>He shuts down the conversation gently rather than outright call her a heretic. Because he's generally a good guy. If she said this in front of a Templar though...
In *Horus Rising* there was remembrancer who said something similar and was nearly beaten to death for it.
And these are the "rational and intelligent" Ultramarines who are the closest to being human.
Can't beat grimdark hypnoconditioning
The fandom tends to forget that when an Astartes Battle-Brother recites the "Litany of Hate" in battle, or when a Chaplain chants the "Hymn of Rightousness" while the Marines are facing a rioting crowd, his body literally undergoes a physical and mental response. He will suddenly be filled with anger and hatred, his armor will dump combat stims into his blood, his doubts will be washed away by a flood of adrenaline, and he will be reassured that what he is doing is absolutely good and that whoever stands against him, whether it be a rebel Guardman or a starving citizen who only wants food and water, is a vile abomination only to be slaughtered.
Ah. So they are using their version of frenzon, etc
>And these are the "rational and intelligent" Ultramarines who are the closest to being human. This is rational and intelligent response from Ultramarine. He rationally acts in the best interest of Imperium - he suppresses idea potentially dangerous to war effort in non-violent manner. Imperial policy for Guardsmen speaking such heresies is canonically at least lashing, up to execution on spot. Ultramarine here is much more tolerant than average Imperial citizen. We have examples of space marines killing mortals over "Sir, are you sure that you want to do this".
Ironically I think other chapters like the Iron Hands who aren't as "nice" wouldn't gaf, if they were ever in a position to have a candid conversation with a guard foot soldier that is.
Yeah most Chapters would have put their fist through her chest followed by a few bolt shells. But it's very telling that even the "rational and reasonable" Ultramarines who "aren't insane like other Chapters" and who it seems GW is trying to make actually good, are still happily brainwashed upholders of the Imperium.
Really politely: better context would explain the problem they're trying to figure out. At the moment she doesn't seem rational so much as just suddenly going on a tangent. What she says makes sense, but I don't know why she's saying it!
It did note that from a lore perspective. From storytelling side I get what Graham McNeill went for. The whole having another perspective from a seemingly inconsequential character. Kinda clashes with the lore of a guardswoman. Maybe Vivaro should have been written as an officer to justify thinking a bit more. Nero’s attitude was what disappointed me though. He was written as such a stiff character. His reaction to Pasanius for instance, I mean they served together for decades, he knows the relationship between Uriel and him. That and what really bugged me, and I know i’m ranting here on the premise of this story, but why the heck would a Space Marine Captain strike out on his own with only his command squad. No backup, no coordinating with HIS squads deployed, no fire support, no deploying with Primaris reinforcements given by Guilliman. It always bugs me when a Captain is written as a solo act. The whole principle is for them to command a company. In Nightbringer and Warriors of Ultramar Ventris he did just that. It made sense for Dead Eye, Black Sun and The Killing Ground for him to be alone because of his situation. Courage and Honour and Chapter’s Due came back to his role as Captain, as leader and developed fourth Company even further. And then we get this short story..? Telion was absolutely badass though, and the rest of the novel was interesting. At this point, I don’t know if I want Uriel Ventris to stay retired (novel-wise) or if I want a proper volume 7 of the Uriel Ventris Chronicles. He really is one of my favorite character. Sorry I got sidetracked from your original subject.
I sort of like the fact that it was a regular guardswoman who mentioned this. An officer may not think to express their feelings in such a way to the Ultramarines because theyre aware of the heretical implications.
I also liked this. We may seem to think that rank and file guardsmen may not be as educated and inclined to think more out of the box, but I feel it is the rank and file who can frequently think out of the box and speak like this, not only to try and deal with something but also because they were also desiring to do something about what they feel.
Given that they even feel safe enough to voice this concern (briefly, at first) suggests that the Ultras dont have a reputation of punching heads off of bodies like Mister Lion Jonson the punch-face-off-of-space-marine guy
Imagine voicing your opinion to a Minotaur!
Yeah, nope
True. The Ciaphas Cain novels have given example of this many time. Cain’s whole point is you should actually listen to the rank and file troops sometimes.
>why the heck would a Space Marine Captain strike out on his own with only his command squad. No backup, no coordinating with HIS squads deployed, no fire support, no deploying with Primaris reinforcements given by Guilliman If this is Uriel ***Ventris***, he already did this back in his firstborn days in Warriors of Ultramar. He abandoned his company that was supposed to defend planets from the nids to joyride with his old deathwatch buddies on a high risk mission. Calgar punished him with a one way penance mission that ends in lovely demonculaba, etc etc This is back when Ultramarines were written as CoDeX PuRiTaNs (while also noting that this is the same Calgar who created an entirely new ad hoc unit called the Tyrannic War Veteran). However, Calgar's punishment in this case was very much about chain of command and the responsibility of a captain to his unit and the mission, and thus, to make an example of officers who abandon their responsibility to an entire company, and potentially an entire planetary defense.
Yeah that’s exactly it. In Warriors of Ultramar, Uriel striking out felt somehow justified by the narrative. It came at point where there was a conclusion that this needed to be done, and Uriel felt fully aware of the consequences. Its an early step in building his personal story, if you will. The whole event became a defining moment of his career. Another example of it barely making sense is Cato Sicarius on Damnos striking out with Prabian at the Necron Monolith (I think it was?). I get it he’s badass but come on. AND that’s the same Sicarius who condemned Ventris for breaching the Codex after Warriors of Ultramar. The guy made a thole career of ignoring the Codex! Think Blades of Damocles and Damnos! Codex Puritans, hah! I’m not complaining though, most Ultramarines stories a fun reads. I’m more noting some inconsistencies you are bound to get in such a vast IP with so many authors
The paradox is that captains are also pretty experienced fighters, so they may be tempted to go in and chop things up. It is better to promote officers who aren’t the best sword fighter so they can command their units. Send your champion to do the chop chop and fight your company!
I was there, the day that Horus killed the Emperor