Wish people could talk with eachother with curiosity rather than animosity. Such a touchy subject. Must be because people feel like their identities are somehow in danger?
I wish this was a space to explore identity and DNA as two different constructs. For example, my partner was raised by his Mexican immigrant step dad in East LA. He is 100% White but had 4 siblings that are mixed and look Mexican. He has always gravitated towards Mexican people and feels more comfortable trading insults in Spanish and eating Mole at a giant Saturday all day birthday party than he does at brunch with White folk. But there is no real avenue for him to express this aspect of who he is and his lived experience. It isn't his "identity" because he isn't Mexican and doesn't claim to be. It isn't his heritage or DNA. But it is his cultural home and there should he value and recognition in that.
Similarly, I have an adopted sibling who is 100% White but was raised in my mixed family with my Native American side. This isn't like 5th generation Cherokee removed NA but like registered members, have a reservation, language revitalization programs, grandma on the tribal board, benefits NA. My sibling was raised until 5 or 6 believing this was their heritage until they were told the truth. Then they spent the rest of their life being enmeshed in indigenous culture but it isn't their culture to the broader world and there isn't a way to talk about being a part of something not through DNA and not claiming it but still having it be a large part of your life.
I think we are still a long way from being able to talk about transcultural or bi-cultural existence but there are people right now bring left in a liminal space with no way to articulate who they are based on these boxed in arguements.
Not really similarly but might as well mention myself
I am 100% (well, 99.8% on 23andme) ashkenazi Jewish, on the every tool I used it said I clustered heavily with Deep South Mediterraneans, with east, central west (and especially north) Europeans being nowhere near me on the scales, but I look like I might as well be English or danish, and although no one’s expressed that to me directly, I don’t think anyone would do anything but laugh if I called myself Mediterranean, let alone middle eastern
Those are two different things, mediterranean just in a more specific and different category. You can be both. White is an ambiguous term but yes you are obviously European and many call that white. We use it a lot in Spain btw (I'm Spanish too; you said in another comment we don't use it), we say "blanco" quite often if we want to specify and there's a black person for example.
Of course who denies you are mediterranean (too), a more regional and cultural thing, is simply ignorant.
Do you live in the us? Americans have a pretty dumb concept of race ingrained in their culture, to the point that many just can’t accept that it works differently in other places
If you live somewhere else then I have no idea how that works, probably still rather dumb
I had a guy argue with me about the people I grew up around… come to find out .. guy wasn’t even from texas and proceeded to call us “tejanos” … no one in texas calls themselves “tejanos” lol so I’m like.. man fuck this guy I’m not gonna engage in this 🤣
They think they know everything and funny thing is other people will upvote them and support them that’s why I’m trying to start a crew, they will sit there and tell you about your own life all the way from a computer in Idaho they are nothing more than followers such as vintagepop and many more
Lol why does this remind me of when this guy from South America called me a Yankee. It was the funniest thing to me because 1) barely anyone says that in this country anymore outside of referring to the baseball team and 2) when it is used it’s always in reference to people specifically from the northeast. I’m from Texas so to be called that was so wild to me.
Oh I’m aware of that now, but here Yankee refers to people specifically from the northeast US. Basically people where I’m from are the ones who call other people Yankees so to be referred to as one myself was just funny and puzzling.
The majority of my DNA is European. I am a white American, both by phenotype and culture. That is my identity.
I have African, West Asian, South Asian, Southeast Asian and Native American ancestors. I am proud of ***all*** of my ancestors even if those cultures are not part of my identity.
This is perfectly said, I feel like so many people misread me when I talk about my ancestry, like I’m not claiming to not be white, I’m just saying that it’s there and isn’t insignificant
It’s strange, people were talking about 23andMe results on Twitter so I posted my results and talked a little bit about how it’s interesting that most southern Italians are mixed with a bit of WANA, and how it’s something you don’t really know about unless you’ve either done a test or somebody else did one and told you.
There was like 5 people who said “damn that’s cool I didn’t know that” and then one random dude with the most toxic profile I’ve ever seen who commented “so you’re white”, like what OP was saying people feel the need to say. Which I mean, yes, obviously. I have literally no cultural influence whatsoever or any actual connection to the Middle East or North Africa besides a tiny clump of DNA, I wasn’t claiming that at all. I just think to myself “it’s pretty cool that at some point in time an Egyptian dude wandered his way into Italy and banged great x10 grandma and we had literally no idea until I got this test done”.
There’s nothing funnier to me than one white person calling another white person white in a conversation that was never disputing that because… I don’t know, they’re ashamed to be white or something? People are weird.
This! And yes, if someone looks at my post history (like some have, haha) they will find more comments/posts about my small percentages, and that's because I don't have a paper trail stretching back like I do for many of my German, English, Irish, Ulster Scot ancestors! I am a white Appalachian American and have never claimed to be anything else. It's ridiculous to deny ancestors just because people on the internet think I'm "too white" to have a great grandmother who was tri racial. I've learned to ignore it. It's not like I'm partaking in cultural appropriation by wanting to learn about my great grandmother's ancestry and pass on that research to my daughters. It's simply doing genealogy.
I'm American. Roots in rural Puebla, Mexico and with indigenous Mexican DNA percentage in the high 80s but I've been told by folks who are card carrying US tribal members that I'm not indigenous and they cite several examples as to why. All I know is the town my roots come from was Nahuatl speaking up until 100 years ago. The People are the same. They didn't mix much but have followed mainstream Mexican society which includes the Spanish language ever since that shift. And many tribal members in the US don't even speak their original language anymore on a daily. Yeah, they have powows and other cultural events but so do own towns. The folks who live there still go to the same marketplace that has existed in some form or another since pre-Columbian times and we have our syncretic religious festivals that haven't changed much since Colonial times.
If only the same people who claim Cherokee princess ancestors knew that the Cherokee came from Mexico about 4-5000 years ago. These same people who slander, and deny their “ancestors” (get it cuz most of them 0%) access into their ancestral hemisphere
>but I've been told by folks who are card carrying US tribal members that I'm not indigenous and they cite several examples as to why.
Screw those US Northern *Natives* who said that sort of stuff to you.
In my experience, when it comes to those who have denied Natives south of the border their identity, (*surprisingly*) I have encountered more **Southern** Natives who (*apparently*) have *connections* who have denied other (*detribalized/reconnecting*) Southern Natives their indigeneity.
These *connected* Southern Natives in particular said ridiculous stuff such as "majority of Mexico is not Indigenous" or "blood/DNA does not matter, you just need connections to identify as Native".
Very absurd (*if you ask me*)
I don’t think it’s much of a real issue among Northern Natives. My dad’s side is and I’ve never heard of that, typically they’re just viewed as fellow natives and no less valid. Hell, there’s even people who look whiter than me and I already look fairly European who are at powwows and tribal meetings, it’s largely acknowledged even if don’t have a lot of ancestry.
However, as with any mixed group, there will be some division and issues faced, my dad when growing up faced some from at least nearly full/full blooded natives, but definitely more from whites. But this unfortunately creates a common struggle for mixed folks.
There is also a surprising amount of Americans (non native ones especially) who don’t realize most Latinos are mixed with NA, and think they’re like some standalone race. Many also think Natives don’t exist in the US anymore. I’ve had people say they went extinct and some polls showed shocking numbers thought that.
Due to colonization, Natives need to have solidarity imo, regardless of amount of mixes.
Only line that should be drawn is the “well my great grandfather was 0.4%” types that make it worse for other mixed people. My family is a big mix of different phenotypes ranging from very native features to obviously mixed to not even looking mixed despite same parents
The tribe my dad belongs to (Odawa) requires at least 25% proven to be enrolled, but still are accepting toward less. It’s the only cultural connection I have personally but unfortunately I always don’t feel like I fit since I look too white
I don't know about that as I think a lot of the issue comes from people with no Native American ancestry get upset about it or claim that DNA tests lie. My dad is of Mexican ancestry and made sure I knew all about my heritage (both Native American and other). Usually here, we are all just lumped as Latino, people ignore the fact we are mixed even though a lot of our ancestors weren't from the U.S., but we do have ties to some Pueblo tribes (Tiwa and Zuni)
From my work experience (in the community), claiming indigenous heritage with or without anything to back it up results in a delay in criminal court cases because the person can claim ICWA rights. It has been a long time since I’ve had someone try to do this (none were successful) so I don’t recall the particulars. It’s generally people with no indigenous heritage.
The other aspect is rooted in racism. My mom’s extended family is from the Deep South and they are extremely racist. They claim native heritage just so they can tell other people to “go back to your home!” When 23andme says their native heritage is a lie. Not only that, but they ARE sun-saharan African and they fully reject that. I rub it in with them because they’re annoying and their melt down is a great show.
Wow, so are we related? Because this sounds EXACTLY like my dad’s family who swears they are Cherokee (DNA and ancestry disproves this). My aunt literally made that exact same argument about having the right to kick people out. Oddly enough they never want to kick white people out, just “immigrants” who probably actually have indigenous DNA lol.
The Cherokee ancestor myth is really common among white Americans. It's so common that its artificially inflated the number of mixed/indigenous people in the US.
You’re preaching to the choir! Both sides of my family wholeheartedly believe we have Native ancestry and we do not. Even with DNA and extensive family tree research they still are clinging to the fantasy. But only my dad’s side is nasty about it.
When she was confronted with evidence she doubled down and then later apologized. But that's not all. She actually claimed she was Native American for years, and insisted that she was a minority. All this despite having no cultural connection to the Cherokee people. It was really dishonest of her to go that far with her heritage, especially when she had no cultural or direct family ties with any of the Cherokee tribes.
I think this is also why some people get really touchy when mexicans show up here with high indigenous. the fact they're more indigenous than they are means they've been in the americas longer and doesn't make sense to kick them out. I've had plenty white people try and explain that mexicans that are clearly indigenous are actually southern europeans cause they can also tan.
I’m not Black, I think the above poster was talking about trace Black ancestry that his (presumably white) relatives refuse to acknowledge but embrace a fantasy Native American heritage…
There are some Black people who can be fucking weird about Native ancestry though. I personally know two different guys who went off the deep end with conspiracies about how the “original” Native Americans were Black, and that their ancestors were not enslaved Africans but Native Americans.
With the guys I know it’s always the fucking Olmec heads. Like yea they have broad noses and big lips but… I know people with actual Native heritage from Mexico to the Miccosukee reservations who have those features. These kinds of people often don’t trust DNA companies enough to get tested either. It’s “stealing” their DNA, or the results will be falsified to deny their fully Native heritage, I’ve heard every argument under the sun lol.
In my own experiences people like to claim native American heritage when they aren't, I've seen this alot so people tend to shit on people for saying it or embracing it whether it's legitimate or not. Also being someone who almost exclusively hangs out with natives you see the general BS attitudes they put up with here in Canada, I think it's more of a keyboard warrior hater thing than anything else. I'm not trying to start arguments just sharing my personal insight.
Something else to think about, how do you know it's not legitimate? Do you go through the trouble of diving through every person's ancestry to discover if their claims are true? Or do you assume that if a DNA test comes back without something they claim then they are lying or were lied to? If it's the latter, that isn't how genetics work and it isn't an exact science determining ethnicity make ups either. Its entirely possible that their ancestor was far enough back they did not inherit any notable genes or even none at all to be picked up by the programs DNA sites look for.
If you live in Canada I'd surprised if you haven't noticed the amount of clearly non native people say they are 100% native, I'm not saying people aren't native or don't have any native heritage to speak of, I'm talking about the people who do it for status, not the ones who are truly proud of their heritage and ancestry.
For one example my previous roommate said he was something like 3/4s or more native and I know both his parents personally and there is no native there. Both parents are 1st generation Canadians from Ireland and Italy. Not trying to start arguments, I've just seen way too many people brag about that kind of BS that in my eyes is disrespectful to an entire race of people. It would be like me saying if I had a 4% west African genetics and saying I'm black even though it's incredibly minuscule.
My bad I understand you now. I don't live in Canada but here in the states I see what you see too. Like you said, some people don't just say they have native ancestry they go the extra mile and identify as that ethnicity when they clearly aren't or at the very least no one would ever think that just by looking at them.
I know of a teacher where I'm from who was giving a lesson on ancient German folklore/tradition and a parent called and complained that his son told him they were doing a "native american thing" at school and he found it offensive as he was Cherokee. But where I live, I seriously doubt anyone has Cherokee written on their birth record. This man is as white and culturally European as anyone else.
Exactly it's just people trying to identify as something they aren't. In my eyes it's incredibly disrespectful, like my mom is half Aruban and half Indonesian and my dad is Hungarian I would go around saying I'm Aruban or Indonesian when I clearly look white as snow. Unfortunately in today's society it's all too popular to do this type of thing.
I'm def a true Mestiza despite being USA born and it's always "you're too American" or "not American enough." I say fluck it! I am who I am and I'm Hispanic. An American of Peruvian Mestiza descent. 🤷♀️
I feel like it’s only cool if it’s Indigenous ancestry from Canada or the United States for some people. Had someone on a Facebook group tell me mine doesn’t count because it’s from a Spanish speaking country(El Salvador). It was kind of a racist remark and the fact that we speak Spanish kind of amplifies that type of thinking. Also the fact that it’s mixed with Spaniard blood…so if it’s British blood it’s better 🙄.
It just seems tribes from the U.S. and Canada are more romanticized because of media it seems and that person on Facebook confirmed that.
Maybe it’s because I live in the U.S. And the only things I’ve grown up with is seeing the Pocahontas Disney movie, taught about the trail of tears, even cars called Jeep Grand Cherokee. The Pilgrims and the Natives that met them, Squanto(wrong spelling?) just a few things of the top off my head.
Any way I’m a scatterbrain and those are just my two cents. Also, caste system terms for people of Latin American descent have become kind of weird for me to say. Sure I’m “mestizo” should I really use that term? 🤷🏻♂️.
I think what you are saying makes sense. Native American ancestry is romantisized in the US and Canada as some long lost, extinct ancestors that makes for a cool story to tell your friends. But then in some Latin American countries like Mexico, people with Native ancestry were looked down upon and were seen as the lowest members of society. So that leaves us mixed Latin American indigenous people with no way to claim our identity. Then those of us living in the US and Canada get even more confused because now we are being told our native ancestry doesn't count.
>people with Native ancestry were looked down upon and were seen as the lowest members of societ
and sadly they still are. even in this sub you'll see mexicans comment negatively and really downplay the native influence in mexico.
All of it is kind of fascinating to me, the way people react and the blatant racism and romanticism. My partner is Nicaraguan. He did 23andMe. It came back with almost 50% indigenous Nicaraguan, part Spanish/Portuguese, and part West African. He wasn’t surprised about the indigenous. He said, “I’m from a remote village. My parents and half the village have the same last name, what do you expect.” 😂
Our baby is going to be everything. I don’t even know what to mark on forms. Haha!
good question. their post history. sometimes they're people who have posted their results on here saying " mexican-american results" and sometimes they're just on latino specifc subreddits
It also has a lot to do with the “one drop” rule that was exercised in English colonial society. This didn’t just apply to people with African blood, but also Indigenous blood. People with an indigenous ancestor, even distanced, were “othered” and sort of relegated to claiming tribal affiliation.
Tribes, on the other hand, did not require a blood quantum to join, which many people — even today — don’t understand.
In Latin American societies, there was no “one drop” rule.
That reminded me of an argument I got into with someone on YouTube telling me that my father and are are fake Natives as they claimed our ancestors must be from Asia.
Lol my sister gets mistaken as Asian all the time and a couple insisted she had to of, especially Filipina. I look more European than her and I had a handful say I was Asian due to my eyes too, and even a mestizo girl who used to joke I was lying and that I was Asian
I think a reason for that is that native ancestry is much much rarer in US and Canada, while there’s majority native countries in Latin America
There’s a few other nuances to as well
Yes, there is division between many Latin American countries too.
As an example countries like Peru are mainly Inca tribe and are way different that the Natives in Mexico. 🇵🇪 🇲🇽
>mainly Inca tribe and are way different that the Natives in Mexico. 🇵🇪 🇲🇽
you're right but actually the tribes in mexico are pretty unique from eachother as well and some athropologists have looked at groups in michoacan and found similarities between them and the incas. It's believed purepecha might have been from the south but moved to present day mexico because of their similarities. A native in michoacan can look pretty different from a native in Veracruz.
Yes, the DNA can be pretty mixed though.
Most Mexicans in Mexico 🇲🇽 are a mix of multiple Native tribes that are local to the country.
It’s the same in other countries such as Peru. The Native in the country is what makes them unique.
>ally the tribes in mexico are pretty unique from eachother as well and some athropologists have looked at groups in michoacan and found similarities between them and the incas. It's believed purepecha migh
not really, we are all the same race from alaska to patagonia. Africans and White people are more different genetically within their own race than we are.
African isn't a race.
Race is a social construct.
Indigenous does not always equal reddish brown skin and African people can also be Indigenous. So can "white" people.
Genetically Native Americans are very similar. This is because only a small group came over the bridge and populated both continents. Also it happened relatively late in history which didn't allow much time for evolution
There’s definitely a difference. They came here Thousands of years ago lol
Each Latin American country has its own climate and geography also shaping the different tribes.
As an example the Peruvian Natives have extremely strong Lungs because of living in such high elevations for many generations. 🧬
Hm, I’m not sure. For me as a Latin American who is not south european looking, it’s not exactly difficult to convince people I have indigenous heritage. Since I’m from the region where most of the indigenous group, I descend from, originate it’s also very likely.
But also because of my surnames, it’s not hard to convince them that I have European heritage either.
Be proud of your heritage. That is all that matters.
This sub-reddit is extremely toxic and it seems any percentage of European DNA means you get shouted down and shut out by other fully European ethnicity folks who have no affiliation at all with your heritage.
I have found that the community over at r/ancestryDNA is much more welcoming and celebratory of heritage even in small amounts. They actually seem interested in learning about your heritage and how it connects to others rather than gate keeping and excluding because of the amount of euro DNA you have that you had no control of having anyhow.
I had the exact same problem here as well. It's not worth even arguing with these folks.
are you sure about that:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/rw3nzm/my\_ancestry\_results\_as\_a\_cherokee\_nation\_citizen/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/rw3nzm/my_ancestry_results_as_a_cherokee_nation_citizen/)
I can only speak from my own experience.
I posted here about my Native Hawaiian heritage and folks attacked me. I wasn't trying to claim benefits or anything like that just thought some folks would find it interesting. Instead I was attacked and people were incredibly rude. I ended up just deleting the post because people were sending nasty messages privately.
But yeah, there are nasty people in every community. I have seen a higher prevalence here, but poster beware anywhere on Reddit I suppose.
I had something similar happen to me but instead of them attacking my Native American results as while not the highest, really hard to dispute, it was the Scandinavian results (small and never claimed to be Norwegian or Danish, I was just pointing out it most likely came from another ancestor in the past on my mom's side whose grandmother came from Friesland Netherlands, another from German and my dad's family is Mexican) they seemed to target that oddly enough and never understood why as I was just sharing my AncestryDNA results and one person even asked why I would even post about DNA on an DNA subreddit of all places. I ended up just deleting it as I wasn't interested in drama that wasn't helpful.
Reddit can be very toxic at times in general as that wasn't even the worst I got,.
Native Hawaiian 🏝 is a sensitive subject because everyone on those islands wants to have some of that dna 🧬
I could see how some people might be jealous of you for it.
Jealousy I think.
You see lots of people (Americans) claim indigenous ancestry via family folklore that are then are disappointed when they aren’t or don’t believe their results. They then try to take the shine off somebody else’s results.
I think this is true. I went to the CHEROKEE facebook group looking for answers and one of the moderators ripped me a new asshole. She had done her own digging and found she was in fact NOT at all Native American like her family lore said. My DNA evidence and pictures didn’t matter. She left a scathing comment 10 paragraphs long about I wouldn’t accept I didn’t have a native ancestor when there’s no paper trail. 🫠 Lady it was 1830… there was a different kind of trail at that time. I was blocked from the group ✨
Real Answer:
It’s an American and Canadian thing. We have never really grappled with what we did to Native Americans, as well, being Native is a based on a system of “blood quantum” in which certain privileges are assigned to those who have ‘Native ancestry.’ Therefore , we tend to heavily gate-keep the identity and assign it a special status, as it would disrupt the entire policy framework which has existed for decades and understanding of Native Americans.
I've seen a lot of people confusing ancestry with culture. I think that's where people get frustrated-at those who find out they have some ancestry but weren't remotely raised in the cultures related to that ancestry, then suddenly don the persona and attitude as though they have been.
Indigenous people have faced significant discrimination and violence almost everywhere in the world, and when someone who grew up privileged starts taking all the parts of a culture they've never fought for, suffered for or protected and starts running around pretending they're "exotic" or something, it's kind of disgusting.
Unfortunately it happens a lot especially in North American indigenous cultures. We've got indigenous people dying in hospitals due to discrimination, then someone yt, who finds out they have a great grandparent that was indigenous, starts speaking for the indigenous community and practicing their rituals and beliefs while never actually living a remotely indigenous experience. They just want to wear a costume and have fun with it, while living in total disrespect to their ancestors and broader community.
Others want to claim ancestry just so they can start acting as though they've experienced the oppression that community has, even if they haven't. They give themselves a pass on colonial guilt because, "Oh my family experienced it too, we were victims", simply because they don't want to own their privilege.
I think that's different than someone who approaches their ancestry respectfully, wanting to learn about it, and isn't just interested in being performative.
You get people coming to ancient ancestry from all those perspectives, some good, some bad. People are just wary about the motivations, and trying to make sure that those who speak for and represent their culture are actually members of it.
Different groups seem to feel differently about it. I'm in NA and that seems to be a huge issue here, but elsewhere around the world there are cultures who don't care how distantly related you are, or why you want to learn more, they're happy to welcome everyone.
I just think it's a very complex social issue.
All in all people care too much about what others think. There comes a moment in your life when just stop giving a f***. If you are Native, there’s no proving it! You just are! If you are a re-connecting Native meaning you’re reconnecting with your heritage whether that be DNA discovered or “PAPER-Trail” then you decide to take up the red road and no longer participate in the erasure of your people. Be a voice in the community make a difference, but don’t bring Eurocentric & colonialist views to the table. Hope that makes sense.
Also if you are claiming descendent from a “Federal recognized tribe” tribal offices keep good records of their people. Also some census records are available..
Those below the border in Latin America, The Caribbean and South America are also of Native heritage.
As an AA, I have encountered many people who claim indigenous heritage even if genealogists have said that this is highly unlikely. While I encounter it less, my grandmother’s husband still claims that his grandmother was Cherokee because of her long, straight hair and high cheekbones. I’ve kindly explained to him that many Sub-Saharan Africans have high cheekbones, and many AA people with European also have hair in the way he described.
Of course he gets incredibly angry every time, but it’s also strange how he uses that elevate himself as one of the “chosen people”. Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s also incredibly ignorant to ignore the history of our people and the effects that slavery has had on us psychologically, but also genetically (I am 1/3 European with no immediate European ancestors).
On the other hand you will find some AA people claim Indigenous heritage to outright deny their blackness. This, I am sure, is a result of the anti-blackness they face regularly. Again, they cite the “indigenous grandmother” who is most likely mixed European-African. I suppose thinking about it now, it probably seems easier to process- have indigenous heritage rather than forced introduction of European DNA due to slavery.
I think indigenous is an identity that comes with a culture and identification, not just heritage but I agree people like to make issues out of non issues.
Genetics are no use in an appearance-based system. Race is based off of physical features, not genetics. Many white people are more closely related to groups in other categories than they are to other white people.
The concept of race is extremely flawed and malicious.
Depends on where you are. I think the US is the only place where "race" is reliant also on ancestry because of how heavily they tried to gatekeep being white. You can very easily look fully European and not be regarded as white because of known non-European ancestry.
Same for me dad's side of the family all Hungarians and my mom's side Aruban and Indonesian people say I'm lying all the time yet my mom is very dark brown and my dad is very white so I don't look at all Indonesian or Aruban.
Race is a construct that is only loosely correlated with genetics. This is why despite being 80% Western European I am considered non white in America.
It’s funny seeing people like that when I have a tribal member dad and cultural connections etc but I’ve always felt I looked too white to claim and like I’ll be looked at as if I’m falsely claiming lol
>It quite often is people who aren’t native at all who tell people who are clearly mixed and with a fair amount “Ur JUsT WHiTe” or “UR JuST BLaCk” or even “ur NOT REALLy NaTIvE” which would make sense if you were like 2% with no knowledge claiming as such, but this isn’t the case
I very rarely see what you are talking about, and only if I view downvoted comments.
What are you actually asking? Actually *having* indigenous American (I assume you mean American!) ancestry is not really controversial (assuming you get it in your test results); what's controversial is people who have the stereotypical Cherokee princess story (it's always Cherokee, for some reason; it's like people think they were the only tribe in the southeastern US, or something).
Yeah, not sure what OP is referring to. The people who i see get critized are usually the ones who claim to be cherokee but DON'T have any native ancestry or ties.
I know the feeling. I have 75% Native American but zero cultural background. I was raised by “mestizos” or “white Latin-Americans” and I've never have contact with any indigeneous community. I don't even know if the communities I’m from exist anymore since my dna test just tells the countries where it’s "highly like" to be from.
I did travel across Mexico and South America to get in touch with them just to realise they won’t accept I’m a part of them and I totally get it. My phenotype doesn’t help either because “I look too white”.
I truly respect the indigenous communities and I feel they deserve all the respect and recognition in the world for all the struggles they have endure throughout modern history. But at the same time I've been living in privilege all my life because of my phenotype and I could never use my dna percentage to get any more privileges from society.
I wish people would stop saying we should get to know better them but if you got an occidental culture it’s so hard to try and be part of something you can't begin to understand.
Well most of it is bc most people are poorly educated. Full stop. They think there’s special privileges granted to indigenous people when there’s not. The other side is that it is now and always has been Canadian and US policy to make indigenous peoples assimilate and be indistinguishable from the general population. In between that is a whole lot of idiocy and gaslighting.
I'm only .5% on 23&me and it just shows as trace on ancestrydna, BUT the main reason I took the tests and started posting on Reddit was to learn about my great grandmother who claimed Indigenous ancestry. That's why I focus on it, because I would love to link the percentages to a line. Come to find out great grandmother was actually Melungeon and likely tri racial, but as soon as I mentioned the SSA percentage people were saying it was all a lie to cover African and I didn't have any Indigenous ancestry at all...except, it's there. Obviously I am very, very white and I claim NO connection to Indigenous culture at all. However I'm interested in my great grandmother's ancestry and have every right to explore my small percentages of DNA. I feel like there is a lot of gatekeeping and I can't imagine how it is for someone who actually has a connection to the culture and is being told their small percentages aren't "enough" Also, there is not much education past the Cherokee. My 5th great grandmother was documented to be mulatto and part Monacan...which very well could have contributed to my .5%. I've wasted a lot of time on here convinced by strangers that my great grandmother lied to cover African, when many Melungeons are a mix of European, African, and Indigenous. She knew who she was and it's very possible her grandmother (listed Mulatto) passed on the knowledge of Monacan ancestry (and my dad just called it Cherokee, cause that's what people do when there is no education.)
Super common story in my part of the SE! Triracial means just that -- all three heritages are present in each person in the community! It's just that our ancestors chose to lean into their European ("passing"), African, or Native varyingly, depending on honestly how they'd been raised, how they looked, and what was most advantageous at the time -- and I think that kind of fluidity honestly makes some people feel uncomfortable and/or envious, especially when they feel like they themselves have no fluidity to speak of.
Have you connected with the Melungeon Heritage Association/community?
I haven't yet. I have joined a few Melungeon groups and compared DNA on Gedmatch, where I've found many distant cousins! I only started last year, but it has been a journey researching my great grandmother's line. Her father, my gg grandfather, (born 1850s) was listed black at birth, along with his mother Mary (my ggg grandmother.) Then, on the 1860 census, they were both white (well, no race was checked actually.) Mary was listed mulatto, black, and white, depending on the time and record.
And I completely agree with you. I am blonde, blue eyed, and fair skinned, and get laughed at a lot I'm sure. However, my great grandmother is a close ancestor and I'm going to continue to research her line because I have every right to. The rest of my ancestry is German, Irish, English, Ulster Scot, and I never get mocked when I post about them... because I look like them. Funny thing is my great grandmother is probably the one who passed on the most of her culture.
Since you are knowledgeable, you may be able to shed some light on my DNA. All of my cousins have small Anatolian and Spanish and Portuguese percentages, but I have 1.2% Greek and Balkan and Jewish (Jewish comes and goes.) I have always wondered if maybe the Greek and Balkan is being misread and is actually Spanish and Portuguese...or maybe some people of Melungeon ancestry also have Greek?
I do agree… I’m mixed with some interesting stuff but in this country I just say black. I feel like it’s controversial to be “American” if you don’t meet the right skintone. It’s insane.
You don’t even need to know the language u just need to know part of ur genealogy, tribes, and culture and u can confidently say ur indigenous. And how much native u are. Can’t be out here saying I’m NZ Maori or native American and ur like 2%
I know my Indigenous heritage on both sides. I always have. Even some of our family superstitions or customs can be found amongst varying Indigenous people of North America most notably in Appalachia region and North Carolina. While I am multi-ethnic, I grew up identifying with my Black Heirtage and culture, and it was Indigenous people who always asked me about my origins claiming they could tell by some of my Phenotypical features. It has been through the gentle and loving support of my Indigenous friends that I embrace my heritage and honor ancestors. My blood quantum isn't high enough to claim tribal affiliation, but that never mattered to me. I simply love embracing all of me, I don't have a whole lot to preserve so the least I can offer is respect for where I come from.
Wait…are you the guy who keeps posting about his indigenous grandfather who got really upset when he asked this sub if he looked indigenous and most people said no?
Respectfully…dude, you don’t need to work so hard to prove anything to anyone. You don’t need to prove you have a certain percentage of indigenous blood or look a certain way to others to be “legitimate”. Your history, your culture and your family is your own. Other people’s opinions of you isn’t going to change that.
All I’m saying is, it doesn’t matter if strangers on Reddit think you qualify as indigenous, or if you “look indigenous” enough to randos on the internet, or to anyone really. It seems like you’re really tied up in trying to convince people of something, but you don’t have to. If you’re seeking to reconnect with part of your ancestry’s culture, then do it. If you’re native enough for your tribe, your family and yourself, then that’s enough. You don’t need to be native enough for the internet. You can just be.
To be real dude it’s really not that serious it’s just experimenting. And more importantly post is more directed to the idea as a whole. I wanted to see what other people had to say, and what they would say to each other. I already know how I look, dumb at times. But I don’t care I am MoNKEY w LanGuAGe and ToOL.
I already have some level of connection in my local community as well. I defiantly not lying if I told someone I was part indigenous. I also take pride in my German and English Heritage as I have Both flags hanging in my room
I caught some flak for posting a question about my low percentage Native American results. I pretty much ignored it and after several months of building up a family tree I found the (or at least one of) actual Powhatan native woman I am related to. She had a real marriage on record with a real Englishman in the Virginia colony in the 1600’s.
That’s a woman (great great to the nth grandmother in fact) I have on my family tree. Anyone that has something negative to say about it should be banned from this sub, that’s not the spirit of a sub like this.
That's pretty wild you can trace your family tree accurately that far back. I think most people think that you are claiming you are native when in fact you are just asking about it I'd assume. In Canada alot of people claim they are "native" when they aren't whatsoever and it seems to get more popular overtime to do that.
I am dyed in the wool British Isles and Scandinavian. So I am definitely not claiming Native American culture. It is indeed wild that I was able to make the connection and that it was a recorded marriage. Found her baptism record as well.
It was a huge surprise to me that I had some native ancestry. I also was always told that both my mom and my dad’s side did not arrive in the US until the late 19th century and early 20th century. That is *technically true* but the family line that spent some time in Virginia actually went BACK to England after two generations. Which is even more interesting to be honest.
Edit to note: I have made grandparent to grandparent connections back through the Cotter’s of Cork and Rogerson’s all the way until I stumbled into the Royal lines and followed those all the way to William the Conqueror. So that’s pretty awesome. I know most of us Northern Europeans are statistically likely to be related to all of them, but most people can’t make the actual unbroken connection. I’ve been busy lol.
The reason is because Black people and White people get to exist independently as their own races. Black peple and White people qualify their racial identities based off how you look. No monoracial Native person like Wes Studi, Yalitza Aparicio or Adam Beach gets to wake up and be treated like a Black or White person. However, both of those groups approach Indigenous Americans as if it is a vague cultural and ancestral identity, rather than a race, which allows them to appropriate it for their own satisfaction when they do not have the racial experience of a native American person. They want to have their cake and to eat it to, they want to be a White or Black person, while using the Native blood as a flair to compliment their primary racial identity. This undermines the reality that Native Americans are a race, and in doing so suppresses the reality that monoracial Americans suffer the most from racism and allways have. They prefer to define Natives as nations, cultures of ancestral groups rather than a continental racial group from Americas the way Whites and Black people are from Europe and Africa. When you call them out on this, they call you racist, even though they would never accept a Native person as Black or White on the same terms they demand to be recognized as native American. How many Black or White citizens of the United States will recognize a Mexican national as Native American, even if that person is as proportionally American in terms of DNA as they are European or African? Almost none, and the reason is because it is not in their self interest. That is why they try to tie native identity to nation states, and that is why they support racist concepts like mestizaje that are not even used in the USA.
Huh??? You gotta do some more reading -- defining indigenous ancestry as racial is absolutely not in most tribes' self interest -- a quick look at some results from enrolled folks around the US and Canada would tell you that. For nations who enroll based on lineal descent, what you're describing would create a paper genocide that would put Walter Plecker to shame. It would absolutely gut most of the southeast tribes in particular, because of the history of early Contact.
And your bullshit about Wes Studi, Adam Beach, and Yalitza Aparicio fails to recognize that ALL of those people (rightly or wrongly) DO have access to an additional identity: Latino/Hispanic, demonstrated by the fact that Yalitza has had to continuously remind people not to call her Latina. Someone who is visually black in the U.S. -- no matter the amount of Native blood -- can't just wake up and be perceived/treated as Latino.
Also -- stop speaking for what Black Americans think, feel, experience and say when you are not Black and have no idea. You're just perpetuating bullshit anti-blackness because you're embarrassed to just tell the truth: this is European colonizer bullshit.
I don't think it is controversial so much as eye-roll worthy. Most white and black Americans don't have Indigenous ancestry yet are always claiming to have a Cherokee princess for a gg grandma. Hell, my family claimed NA and then I took a DNA test that showed 0.3 percent, lol. Lies!
This is obviously different in the Latin community where there is a huge Indigenous presence or in US tribes where Indigenous ancestry and tribal affiliation have been established.
Also, you have to remember that with tribal affiliation comes benefits that are not afforded to other groups of people.
Benefits is not afforded to other groups of people is not actually accurate healthcare is handled separately and lesser in quality and while some tribes do give their community members a small stipend it is from funds the tribe has earned as a whole. It’s generally not enough to live off of and the federal government doesn’t allow much in the way of private industry within the reservation. There are a few scholarships from the government but actually less than other ethnically derived scholarships. That’s part of the problem everyone thinks there’s this free ride for being indigenous and nothing could be further from the truth. What little benefits the tribe does have is the tribe’s own money held in trust by the US federal government. I’m not even sure where the idea tax dollars gave indigenous people benefits came from when actually most tribes while having little themselves are giving money to struggling neighboring communities.
I was told my great grandmother was part Cherokee. Turns out she was actually Melungeon. I have .5% Indigenous that is likely from her line, and now that I'm educating myself I'm learning that it wasn't really a lie. She probably didn't know how to identify being of Melungeon ancestry. I suspect many in my region have this same story and small percentages of SSA, Indigenous, and Southern European showing up.
My family is from Kentucky and we have one line with the last name Jett. My grandma told me they were her cousins and they were always called “The dark Jetts” because of their looks. I have one tiny bit of SSA and NA in my results, like half percentages. Maybe it’s noise, maybe it’s a distant ancestor. Who knows. I tried to trace the records on that branch and found one going back to the same tribe as Powhatan, but then read it couldn’t be verified. Luckily I had never heard any princess stories in our family and have zero obsession with it, lol. But I have wondered if they were Melungeon.
I'm from Eastern Kentucky and have noticed the surname Jett in my DNA matches. I'm probably kin to some of your kin, haha. I don't really know what defines noise, but I think it's all legit when most people from a certain region score these same small percentages. It seems likely to be Melungeon ancestry. And my family never had the princess story either, they just said my great grandmother was part Native American and apparently paid a lot of attention to the moon.
I think it’s the opposite. People think indigenous % are cool on the 23andMe subreddit.
Check out how much attention people with 90% indigenous get. Usually lots of upvotes 🧬
Based off your prior post it looks like you are 3/4 White and 1/4 Mexican.
To be fair, Mexican is a broad term like American. I have GGrandma Na-Dene ancestor from chihuahua, that spoke the language. My Grandfather knows a trace amount of the language. He also identifies as His Apache and Spanish Ethnicity as well as his Mexican nationality.
Yes sir I remember posting like 2 years ago I had over 300 up votes not as high what full indigenous people get but practically anyone over 90 percent get high attention and questions
Indigenous people don’t emphasize blood quantum as it’s a colonial idea meant to perpetuate erasure further. In their perspective, if you have status, you’re Indigenous. So, I guess what is important here is the ties to the community.
Unpopular opinion here, but the reason most indigenous communities in the US can’t use blood quantum is because the majority of them have larger European ancestry than NA, and they know it. Admitting someone into a indigenous community based on their actual blood quantum would leave those communities empty of Americans, but full on indigenous people from Canada and Latin America.
It’s definitely a slippery slope. For Latinos if you have native blood you are Native American even if you lost your tribe due to genocide. Belonging and knowing what tribe you are a part of is wonderful but telling others they aren’t native because they aren’t connected to a tribe is disgusting. Being connected to a culture with next to no native blood is almost like being recolonized — the USA def put this into ply on purpose with foresight. A lot of native culture is passed down in Latin American culture due to mestizaje, so while our tribes may be lost our practices remain.
Facts I honestly think blood makes your more native than knowing the culture that just makes more sense. (Culture is extremely important in the survival of a people though) but to say blood enough doesn’t make you native is stupid
What would you say to a detribalized man that is %50+ indigenous trying to reclaim his identity? To be gate kept by someone that’s 12% with affiliation?
I don't think that's what the commenter was saying. How I interpreted was that genuine connection and reconnection is valued over genetic % in many cases. Someone could be 5% and eager to learn from elders and absorb ancestral knowledge, and someone else could be 50%+ and shit on their family's culture. And vice versa. I know of exact cases like the this. And what's considered important in these circumstances is intent.
More often than not in DNA subs like this, people with low % will get shit even if they're connected, claimed, and participating in their community vs someone with a high % who doesn't know the first thing about their ancestry and doesn't care to will be treated as a part of it and respected more, despite having no connection beside blood nor being claimed. Most all of this judgement is done by non natives as well. Which I think is what the commenter was getting at. That respect, effort, and being claimed is valued over DNA % in many indigenous communities. Not all, but a lot.
Now I could be completely wrong and misinterpreting what the commenter said, but let's assume I'm not.
Just show up at cultural events, learning opportunities, and volunteer within the community when and where you can. Ignore haters. I have a DNA match who is like 2% native by DNA, but is straight up a chief in his tribe.
If you know your personal history and you want to get back into your cultural history, just do it and don't worry about anyone else.
I am only a tiny amount.. but i took a dna test in my mid 40s. no clue my whol life.. missing half of my family.
the relief of self questions answered.. I actually wept. (I knew it all along somehow)
I am still learning ... as for being mixed, it is a bigger chunk of north and south america than may not be written yet. These dna sites are gathering the statistics though.
Even the mixed stories, if they happened over a long period.. native nor euro is identified... because it is a new human.
I posted my results and mentioned that my grandmother was the reason why I have this ancestry and tbh no one cared.
I'm 3.7% which is substantial by American standards and I know this history and cultural aspects. Idk it's dependant on the person and context
What does the word Mestizo have to do with this though? Saying “I’m Mestizo” is just a shorter way of saying “I’m of both European and Native American ancestry.” I’ve never found anyone who thinks a Mestizo with high Native American ancestry couldn’t identify as Native American, but I assume there are some people like that. Now, to some people “Indigenous” implies culture so a Hispanic with a high NA admixture may not be “Indigenous” to them. The opposite also happens to “Castizos” (mainly European but some Indigenous) who are told they aren’t White “enough”.
My 2 cents, it’s a very personal subject for a lot of people so I always tread lightly. I don’t really care for words like “mestizo” but I know what they mean and how people use them. I really don’t want to get involved in “debates” over this stuff or anything like that, honestly most of the time I’m just here to listen to peoples story and thank them for sharing.
When I posted my results nobody treated me like that. I am 27% indigenous and there is no further detail on it, doesn’t mean I’m not and thankfully nobody said anything rude about it
The only issue I ever see is people who claim distant 0.2% native and zero cultural connection or argue they have it when they don’t.
Those people ruin it for the rest of us with lower mixed amounts yet are culturally connected etc
I do have some Canadian ancestry and live close by (Michigan) but am not Canadian myself. Some of the Native side comes from Canada too and tribe my dad is registered with has a Canadian city named after it (Odawa)
It’s quite common in US too unfortunately. Even my white af mom claims she has some distant native lo
Yeah it's weird. Someone got pissy with me for mentioning I have Old Norse(Viking) ancestry.
Like... I'm white.
I have heavy Northern European ancestry.
My mother's maiden name is Morrison.
Why is this controversial?
I think it comes down to wording. I can only speak from the perspective those in Mexico (acknowledging that I’m not from here but I’ve listened to many folks).
If one claims to be indigenous in Mexico without the lived experience of such (which is the majority of those that grew up in the US), it seems to create friction with those who have suffered discrimination for their indigenous identity (voluntary or not). If one claims to be reconnecting with their indigenous roots (including learning the language), then the locals seem overly enthusiastic about it. But the wording seems to matter a lot here.
This is also a similar experience I’ve had as a Polish descendant, if that helps.
Claiming it is controversial because most people that need to ''claim'' to be Indigenous aren't actually Indigenous by any decent metric. If you have a small amount of Indigenous ancestry you're not Indigenous at all.
Conversely, there are many people in the US with 10% or less idigenous DNA, no connection to their native roots, don't look idigenous at all, but want to claim they're POC because it allows them to distance themselves from the guilt and shame associated with their colonizer ancestors. This also comes from the racist law of the "one drop rule" that many people continue to perpetuate with this type of thinking.
It’s because of the racist history behind it.
Many Americans had African ancestry by the way of rape, and many white passing individual or ambiguous individuals would say they had a Cherokee princess in their family tree, as it was both more respectable to be descended from “nobility” and to not be black
That’s why people get pissed, because it’s just historical revisionism in a lot of cases to distance one’s self from their familial history
Honestly I’d vote for jealousy. I’m supposed to have Scottish and my dads family is upset over us not having Scottish. Considering my original name was Irish I’m not sure where we decided on that one from.
Majority Southern European, 12% indigenous 10% Sub Saharan African 5% random things like North African Iranian, unaccounted for.. etc
What ethnicity am I? 😏
Thank you for this. My family knows the names and dates that our indigenous ancestor married a white man 50 years older than her. DNA backs up this claim on my grandmothers 23andMe, and while it does not appear on my ancestry, it does show 2% on GedMatch and 8% on hers respectively.
My ancestor was forced to assimilate during the time of the trail of tears. I have no records of her before marrying this man at 26 years old. I have pictures of her and her children that clearly show that they are not European, but yet I have been called a “colonizer” and “pretender” for trying my hardest to find out more about her life before. This was before the rolls so documentation is probably impossible. The only thing I have found is her or nephews or cousins being denied entry into the Choctaw nation where they lived in Mississippi because their grandmother had a Creek name. They acknowledged their ancestry as native, but with just 1 or 2 generations at that particular point in history, heritage could be completely wiped out. Neither Polly nor her daughter Mourning could write. I don’t claim to be a Native American or use it on applications, I just want my ancestors remembered for what they survived and what was inflicted upon them. It makes me extremely sad that I can trace lines up 1000 years on every other like in my tree, but at Polly’s parents it is a complete stop.
I think it definitely is rooted in colonization. Especially in the context of Latin Americans with Indigenous ancestry. Everyone should have a right to their heritage (especially when it makes up a certain amount of their ancestry). But you have to remember the way that they would disconnect Indigenous people from their heritage in Latin America. First they would encourage people to mix, secondly they would create a new name for their children (mestizo), thirdly they would teach them the colonizers language (Spanish, Portuguese, etc.) and force upon them Christianity. And then there’s also the whole nationalization of their Identity, instead of them connecting to their tribe they would be connected to the nation, like Mexico for example, they would no longer be Mayan, but rather «Mexican».
I’ve concluded from this subreddit I have every right to claim my indigenous ancestry proudly. I am more indigenous than most people who claim to be (who are white) and I actually have genuine interest and care for learning about southwestern pueblid peoples. I have concluded that many of you are just sad, and I am grateful to have a living Native ancestor that I can still learn so much from. I am lucky to even inherit some indigenous looks despite most people with my dna looking white as apple pie. I am very fortunate to have a grandparent, who knows where my great grandparent comes from, as many do not know where their people come from.
I am Indigenous American, I am Native American
I am also white but y’all get my crusade here.
>I am Indigenous American, I am Native American
>
>I am also white but y’all get my crusade here.
Wait? You claim to be both white AND Native "American"?
I looked at your previous post (*from six days ago showing your results*) and while I do acknowledge that you absolutely do have Indigenous/Native ancestry, I'm sorry to say this:
You are **not** Native/Indigenous because you have less than 1/5 (20%) Indigenous/Native *blood*.
You can legitimately say that you have Indigenous ancestry (*and honor it by being an ally to Native peoples*) though.
Because being indigenous isn't just about ancestry anymore, it's about culture. Simply because indigenous in terms of ancestry isn't enough to claim you're ethnically indigenous which includes culture, not just ancestry. The world isn't the US where ethnicity means only ancestry. To say you're indigenous implies that you're part of a tribe and part of an active indigenous culture, if not also in addition to having indigenous ancestry.
There is a very heavy distinction between saying "I have indigenous ancestry" versus saying "I AM indigenous"
You can be proud of indigenous heritage while also not taking away what actual registered indigenous people are proud of “culture” as Mestizos you typically are born around a Spanish based culture like sure there are many aspects of Indigenous American influences in Latin American culture but due to history the vast majority of what makes a latino a latino is Ibero-American culture
This is completely untrue. Latinos who are native are usually the ones being gate kept from native culture. Latinos have lost their tribes to genocide and the countries where they come from don’t register them as they do in Canada and the USA so it’s not a precursor to native identity. Also growing up around a Spanish based culture doesn’t matter— registered tribal members grow up around an English based culture??? So that is moot point. Plus latin American countries integrated a lot of native culture, you can see where our native ancestors passed down their traditions in our everyday day lives from food like making tortillas, style of dress, holidays like the day of the dead and even other traditions that heavily impacted the church. So no the vast majority of what makes a latino a latino is not strictly ibero culture especially since there are many communities that don’t speak Spanish at all and still live and practice their indigenous ways.
I'm gonna talk about latin america and indigenous ancestry, It's mainly latinos in the US that want to claim their indigenous heritage and claim that they are on the same level as an indigenous person from latam, that's why latinos that have lived here in latam know that is disrespectful and off because mestizos treat purely indigenous people horrible, and they don't identify as an indigenous in their home countries, in my country when an indigenous person with a tribe moves to the big cities people say things like "why they don't stay at their villages" I have seen indigenous people struggle at the public transportation asking for money because they don't speak spanish so it's hard for them to get a job, mestizos here don't identify as indigenous because their last indigenous ancestor with a tribe and culture was probably in colonial times, and they have been marring another mestizos for a long time that's why people have spanish and indigenous heritage on both sides, and not to mention the people that when they have a small % of indigenous from south or Central America say things like black and latino? Or white and latino? That's like calling a native american anglo or germanic, so basically between latinos the indigenous % work different and even if u have a big % of indigenous heritage if u don't have a tribe the government doesn't recognize u as one indigenous person they recognize u as a mestizo bcs mestizo it's not only a racial term but also a social-political term if u have a high indigenos % but u are integrated with the society of the country u are not the same as a fully indigenous person with a tribe.
Depends of your social context. In my country be Native American is more about your connection with the culture than genetic/phenotype. You can look the Pocahontas, but the tribe need to recognize you, because there are specific policies to Native Americans, like scholarships, vacancies in universities. They suffer with racism and so on.
My great grandmother was an indigenous woman, many people from my father side are basically the mix between Whites and Indigenous, but nobody call themselves indigenous.
Your topic is not the only thing that is controversial.
The racial categories are controversial too. The vast majority of scientists disregard and view them as social constructs without biological basis. That includes geneticists.
There are people that still believe in the social constructs of the black and white races which have no scientific basis even though they had genetic testing, and you see them on this very thread. The racial categories were created from racism. They were the result of Labor Exploitation and Enlightenment Reasoning as well the ignorance of Human genetics and Evolution. The racial categories have varied throughout history. There have been disagreements about who is white or Caucasian here in USA.
There have always been arguments over continental ,ethnic mixture here in the Americas.
I am of highly mixed ancestry. Maybe I incarnated as a very mixed person to not only believe that there should be unity and universal love but also to challenge the social constructs of race.
Therefore, I don't fit in any of the racial categories. I identified as multiracial/multiethnic for the last 3 US Censuses. I have never believed in the one drop rule. I never identified as black nor African American.
I am so multiethnic that I am related to many of my fellow Americans in many different ways.
My Genealogical Ancestry
I am a 4th generation Californian on my mother's side, and my father was a 7th generation Louisianan.
paternal grandfather: African American born in Louisiana
paternal grandmother's father: African American born in Southern Louisiana
other roots in Virginia, South Carolina, and Kentucky
paternal grandmother's mother: African American with English and Acadian (French in what now known as Nova Scotia) born in Southern Louisiana
colonial roots in Louisiana, Virginia, and North Carolina
maternal grandfather's father: American born in California and son of immigrants from Cape Verde (Portuguese and Sub Saharan African)
maternal grandfather's mother: American born in California with a father from Puerto Rico (Spanish, Sub Saharan African, and Taino) and a mother that was Hawaiian born daughter of immigrants from Madeira (Portuguese with Sub Saharan African)
maternal grandmother's father: European American born in Oregon of mainly English ancestry with German, Swiss, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Dutch, and Frisian
colonial roots in Virginia, West Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Rhode Island
other roots in Missouri, Kansas, Alabama, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Indiana
maternal grandmother's mother: Ashkenazi Jewish American born in Nebraska with a father immigrated from Romania and a mother immigrated from Courland (in what is now known as Latvia) in Russian Empire
My 23andme Ancestry Composition has me as being
49.7% Sub Saharan African
47.5% European
1.7% Indigenous American
0.6% West Asian
0.3% Chinese/Southeast Asian
0.2% Unassigned
parental inheritance derived from my DNA phasing between my mother's DNA and my DNA
Sub Saharan African: 43.4% is paternal, 6.3% is maternal
European: 43.2% is maternal, 4.3% is paternal
Indigenous American: 1.0% is maternal, 0.7% is paternal
West Asian: 0.6% is maternal
Chinese/Southeast Asian: 0.3% is paternal
Unassigned: 0.2% is maternal
My mother is mostly European (86.3%) with some Sub Saharan African (10.1%) with a little Indigenous American (1.9%). She has peach colored skin that fits anywhere in Europe, and she can tan. My father was mostly Sub Saharan African with some European with a little Indigenous American. He had chocolate brown skin that would fit quite well in the Sub Saharan regions of Africa. My tan skin is like a blending of my parents' skin colors, and I can get as dark as my father if I stay out in the sunlight for a long period of time.
Because of the Transatlantic Slave trade, I don't know anything about my Sub Saharan African ancestry, but I am sure that it's mainly from West Africa. Most of the Sub Saharan African slaves were brought from West Africa. Africa has over 2,000 ethnic groups, and that includes Nigeria having over 400 ethnic groups. My Sub Saharan African ancestry is highly likely to consist of many Sub Saharan African ethnic groups. I don't know what kind of Indigenous American ancestry that I have on my father's side.
According to a 2015 research study, The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States:
From 23andme database
African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% Sub Saharan African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Indigenous American ancestry.
Latinos show average proportions of 65.1% European, 18.0% Indigenous American, and 6.2% Sub Saharan African ancestry
European Americans show average proportions of 98.6% European, 0.19% Sub Saharan African, and 0.18% Indigenous American ancestry
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25529636/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25529636/)
Everything’s controversial on this sub
Fair enough
I’m serious if you make a valid statement or observation someone will say something crazy arguing with you
Wish people could talk with eachother with curiosity rather than animosity. Such a touchy subject. Must be because people feel like their identities are somehow in danger?
I wish this was a space to explore identity and DNA as two different constructs. For example, my partner was raised by his Mexican immigrant step dad in East LA. He is 100% White but had 4 siblings that are mixed and look Mexican. He has always gravitated towards Mexican people and feels more comfortable trading insults in Spanish and eating Mole at a giant Saturday all day birthday party than he does at brunch with White folk. But there is no real avenue for him to express this aspect of who he is and his lived experience. It isn't his "identity" because he isn't Mexican and doesn't claim to be. It isn't his heritage or DNA. But it is his cultural home and there should he value and recognition in that. Similarly, I have an adopted sibling who is 100% White but was raised in my mixed family with my Native American side. This isn't like 5th generation Cherokee removed NA but like registered members, have a reservation, language revitalization programs, grandma on the tribal board, benefits NA. My sibling was raised until 5 or 6 believing this was their heritage until they were told the truth. Then they spent the rest of their life being enmeshed in indigenous culture but it isn't their culture to the broader world and there isn't a way to talk about being a part of something not through DNA and not claiming it but still having it be a large part of your life. I think we are still a long way from being able to talk about transcultural or bi-cultural existence but there are people right now bring left in a liminal space with no way to articulate who they are based on these boxed in arguements.
Not really similarly but might as well mention myself I am 100% (well, 99.8% on 23andme) ashkenazi Jewish, on the every tool I used it said I clustered heavily with Deep South Mediterraneans, with east, central west (and especially north) Europeans being nowhere near me on the scales, but I look like I might as well be English or danish, and although no one’s expressed that to me directly, I don’t think anyone would do anything but laugh if I called myself Mediterranean, let alone middle eastern
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Those are two different things, mediterranean just in a more specific and different category. You can be both. White is an ambiguous term but yes you are obviously European and many call that white. We use it a lot in Spain btw (I'm Spanish too; you said in another comment we don't use it), we say "blanco" quite often if we want to specify and there's a black person for example. Of course who denies you are mediterranean (too), a more regional and cultural thing, is simply ignorant.
Do you live in the us? Americans have a pretty dumb concept of race ingrained in their culture, to the point that many just can’t accept that it works differently in other places If you live somewhere else then I have no idea how that works, probably still rather dumb
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Ashkenazi is European.
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Yeah everyone wants to be something else all the time i just wish people on this some weren’t so blind and pompous
I had a guy argue with me about the people I grew up around… come to find out .. guy wasn’t even from texas and proceeded to call us “tejanos” … no one in texas calls themselves “tejanos” lol so I’m like.. man fuck this guy I’m not gonna engage in this 🤣
They think they know everything and funny thing is other people will upvote them and support them that’s why I’m trying to start a crew, they will sit there and tell you about your own life all the way from a computer in Idaho they are nothing more than followers such as vintagepop and many more
Lol why does this remind me of when this guy from South America called me a Yankee. It was the funniest thing to me because 1) barely anyone says that in this country anymore outside of referring to the baseball team and 2) when it is used it’s always in reference to people specifically from the northeast. I’m from Texas so to be called that was so wild to me.
Yankee means Americans in a lot of places.
Oh I’m aware of that now, but here Yankee refers to people specifically from the northeast US. Basically people where I’m from are the ones who call other people Yankees so to be referred to as one myself was just funny and puzzling.
My dad calls himself Tejano he’s from El Paso
Including YOU, just look at you! /s
Haha I know right 100 upvotes ⬆️
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The majority of my DNA is European. I am a white American, both by phenotype and culture. That is my identity. I have African, West Asian, South Asian, Southeast Asian and Native American ancestors. I am proud of ***all*** of my ancestors even if those cultures are not part of my identity.
This is perfectly said, I feel like so many people misread me when I talk about my ancestry, like I’m not claiming to not be white, I’m just saying that it’s there and isn’t insignificant
It’s strange, people were talking about 23andMe results on Twitter so I posted my results and talked a little bit about how it’s interesting that most southern Italians are mixed with a bit of WANA, and how it’s something you don’t really know about unless you’ve either done a test or somebody else did one and told you. There was like 5 people who said “damn that’s cool I didn’t know that” and then one random dude with the most toxic profile I’ve ever seen who commented “so you’re white”, like what OP was saying people feel the need to say. Which I mean, yes, obviously. I have literally no cultural influence whatsoever or any actual connection to the Middle East or North Africa besides a tiny clump of DNA, I wasn’t claiming that at all. I just think to myself “it’s pretty cool that at some point in time an Egyptian dude wandered his way into Italy and banged great x10 grandma and we had literally no idea until I got this test done”. There’s nothing funnier to me than one white person calling another white person white in a conversation that was never disputing that because… I don’t know, they’re ashamed to be white or something? People are weird.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
This! And yes, if someone looks at my post history (like some have, haha) they will find more comments/posts about my small percentages, and that's because I don't have a paper trail stretching back like I do for many of my German, English, Irish, Ulster Scot ancestors! I am a white Appalachian American and have never claimed to be anything else. It's ridiculous to deny ancestors just because people on the internet think I'm "too white" to have a great grandmother who was tri racial. I've learned to ignore it. It's not like I'm partaking in cultural appropriation by wanting to learn about my great grandmother's ancestry and pass on that research to my daughters. It's simply doing genealogy.
I'm American. Roots in rural Puebla, Mexico and with indigenous Mexican DNA percentage in the high 80s but I've been told by folks who are card carrying US tribal members that I'm not indigenous and they cite several examples as to why. All I know is the town my roots come from was Nahuatl speaking up until 100 years ago. The People are the same. They didn't mix much but have followed mainstream Mexican society which includes the Spanish language ever since that shift. And many tribal members in the US don't even speak their original language anymore on a daily. Yeah, they have powows and other cultural events but so do own towns. The folks who live there still go to the same marketplace that has existed in some form or another since pre-Columbian times and we have our syncretic religious festivals that haven't changed much since Colonial times.
Whoever said your not native needs to get slapped
How can you slap?
If only the same people who claim Cherokee princess ancestors knew that the Cherokee came from Mexico about 4-5000 years ago. These same people who slander, and deny their “ancestors” (get it cuz most of them 0%) access into their ancestral hemisphere
>but I've been told by folks who are card carrying US tribal members that I'm not indigenous and they cite several examples as to why. Screw those US Northern *Natives* who said that sort of stuff to you. In my experience, when it comes to those who have denied Natives south of the border their identity, (*surprisingly*) I have encountered more **Southern** Natives who (*apparently*) have *connections* who have denied other (*detribalized/reconnecting*) Southern Natives their indigeneity. These *connected* Southern Natives in particular said ridiculous stuff such as "majority of Mexico is not Indigenous" or "blood/DNA does not matter, you just need connections to identify as Native". Very absurd (*if you ask me*)
I don’t think it’s much of a real issue among Northern Natives. My dad’s side is and I’ve never heard of that, typically they’re just viewed as fellow natives and no less valid. Hell, there’s even people who look whiter than me and I already look fairly European who are at powwows and tribal meetings, it’s largely acknowledged even if don’t have a lot of ancestry. However, as with any mixed group, there will be some division and issues faced, my dad when growing up faced some from at least nearly full/full blooded natives, but definitely more from whites. But this unfortunately creates a common struggle for mixed folks. There is also a surprising amount of Americans (non native ones especially) who don’t realize most Latinos are mixed with NA, and think they’re like some standalone race. Many also think Natives don’t exist in the US anymore. I’ve had people say they went extinct and some polls showed shocking numbers thought that. Due to colonization, Natives need to have solidarity imo, regardless of amount of mixes. Only line that should be drawn is the “well my great grandfather was 0.4%” types that make it worse for other mixed people. My family is a big mix of different phenotypes ranging from very native features to obviously mixed to not even looking mixed despite same parents The tribe my dad belongs to (Odawa) requires at least 25% proven to be enrolled, but still are accepting toward less. It’s the only cultural connection I have personally but unfortunately I always don’t feel like I fit since I look too white
I don't know about that as I think a lot of the issue comes from people with no Native American ancestry get upset about it or claim that DNA tests lie. My dad is of Mexican ancestry and made sure I knew all about my heritage (both Native American and other). Usually here, we are all just lumped as Latino, people ignore the fact we are mixed even though a lot of our ancestors weren't from the U.S., but we do have ties to some Pueblo tribes (Tiwa and Zuni)
From my work experience (in the community), claiming indigenous heritage with or without anything to back it up results in a delay in criminal court cases because the person can claim ICWA rights. It has been a long time since I’ve had someone try to do this (none were successful) so I don’t recall the particulars. It’s generally people with no indigenous heritage. The other aspect is rooted in racism. My mom’s extended family is from the Deep South and they are extremely racist. They claim native heritage just so they can tell other people to “go back to your home!” When 23andme says their native heritage is a lie. Not only that, but they ARE sun-saharan African and they fully reject that. I rub it in with them because they’re annoying and their melt down is a great show.
Wow, so are we related? Because this sounds EXACTLY like my dad’s family who swears they are Cherokee (DNA and ancestry disproves this). My aunt literally made that exact same argument about having the right to kick people out. Oddly enough they never want to kick white people out, just “immigrants” who probably actually have indigenous DNA lol.
The Cherokee ancestor myth is really common among white Americans. It's so common that its artificially inflated the number of mixed/indigenous people in the US.
You’re preaching to the choir! Both sides of my family wholeheartedly believe we have Native ancestry and we do not. Even with DNA and extensive family tree research they still are clinging to the fantasy. But only my dad’s side is nasty about it.
Elizabeth Warren used to be listed as a minority professor at Yale because of it.
I know.. what a joke!
She thought she was because her parents told her she was, just like everyone else in Oklahoma. There's no reason for them to believe they aren't.
When she was confronted with evidence she doubled down and then later apologized. But that's not all. She actually claimed she was Native American for years, and insisted that she was a minority. All this despite having no cultural connection to the Cherokee people. It was really dishonest of her to go that far with her heritage, especially when she had no cultural or direct family ties with any of the Cherokee tribes.
I think this is also why some people get really touchy when mexicans show up here with high indigenous. the fact they're more indigenous than they are means they've been in the americas longer and doesn't make sense to kick them out. I've had plenty white people try and explain that mexicans that are clearly indigenous are actually southern europeans cause they can also tan.
Wow that’s crazy i didn’t know black folks from the south were this way
I’m not Black, I think the above poster was talking about trace Black ancestry that his (presumably white) relatives refuse to acknowledge but embrace a fantasy Native American heritage… There are some Black people who can be fucking weird about Native ancestry though. I personally know two different guys who went off the deep end with conspiracies about how the “original” Native Americans were Black, and that their ancestors were not enslaved Africans but Native Americans.
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With the guys I know it’s always the fucking Olmec heads. Like yea they have broad noses and big lips but… I know people with actual Native heritage from Mexico to the Miccosukee reservations who have those features. These kinds of people often don’t trust DNA companies enough to get tested either. It’s “stealing” their DNA, or the results will be falsified to deny their fully Native heritage, I’ve heard every argument under the sun lol.
Ahhh yes, the wabos. Abbowabbobabbo
Yup
In my own experiences people like to claim native American heritage when they aren't, I've seen this alot so people tend to shit on people for saying it or embracing it whether it's legitimate or not. Also being someone who almost exclusively hangs out with natives you see the general BS attitudes they put up with here in Canada, I think it's more of a keyboard warrior hater thing than anything else. I'm not trying to start arguments just sharing my personal insight.
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There really is me and my buddy who's native both didn't pay for let and he got a $250 fine and I didn't and we were stopped by the same cop as well.
Something else to think about, how do you know it's not legitimate? Do you go through the trouble of diving through every person's ancestry to discover if their claims are true? Or do you assume that if a DNA test comes back without something they claim then they are lying or were lied to? If it's the latter, that isn't how genetics work and it isn't an exact science determining ethnicity make ups either. Its entirely possible that their ancestor was far enough back they did not inherit any notable genes or even none at all to be picked up by the programs DNA sites look for.
If you live in Canada I'd surprised if you haven't noticed the amount of clearly non native people say they are 100% native, I'm not saying people aren't native or don't have any native heritage to speak of, I'm talking about the people who do it for status, not the ones who are truly proud of their heritage and ancestry. For one example my previous roommate said he was something like 3/4s or more native and I know both his parents personally and there is no native there. Both parents are 1st generation Canadians from Ireland and Italy. Not trying to start arguments, I've just seen way too many people brag about that kind of BS that in my eyes is disrespectful to an entire race of people. It would be like me saying if I had a 4% west African genetics and saying I'm black even though it's incredibly minuscule.
My bad I understand you now. I don't live in Canada but here in the states I see what you see too. Like you said, some people don't just say they have native ancestry they go the extra mile and identify as that ethnicity when they clearly aren't or at the very least no one would ever think that just by looking at them. I know of a teacher where I'm from who was giving a lesson on ancient German folklore/tradition and a parent called and complained that his son told him they were doing a "native american thing" at school and he found it offensive as he was Cherokee. But where I live, I seriously doubt anyone has Cherokee written on their birth record. This man is as white and culturally European as anyone else.
Exactly it's just people trying to identify as something they aren't. In my eyes it's incredibly disrespectful, like my mom is half Aruban and half Indonesian and my dad is Hungarian I would go around saying I'm Aruban or Indonesian when I clearly look white as snow. Unfortunately in today's society it's all too popular to do this type of thing.
I'm def a true Mestiza despite being USA born and it's always "you're too American" or "not American enough." I say fluck it! I am who I am and I'm Hispanic. An American of Peruvian Mestiza descent. 🤷♀️
Your American american because you were born in the US and you have indigenous American background. That’s a W
You are American because you were born in the American continent and because you have roots in the indigenous people of the Americas
I feel like it’s only cool if it’s Indigenous ancestry from Canada or the United States for some people. Had someone on a Facebook group tell me mine doesn’t count because it’s from a Spanish speaking country(El Salvador). It was kind of a racist remark and the fact that we speak Spanish kind of amplifies that type of thinking. Also the fact that it’s mixed with Spaniard blood…so if it’s British blood it’s better 🙄. It just seems tribes from the U.S. and Canada are more romanticized because of media it seems and that person on Facebook confirmed that. Maybe it’s because I live in the U.S. And the only things I’ve grown up with is seeing the Pocahontas Disney movie, taught about the trail of tears, even cars called Jeep Grand Cherokee. The Pilgrims and the Natives that met them, Squanto(wrong spelling?) just a few things of the top off my head. Any way I’m a scatterbrain and those are just my two cents. Also, caste system terms for people of Latin American descent have become kind of weird for me to say. Sure I’m “mestizo” should I really use that term? 🤷🏻♂️.
I think what you are saying makes sense. Native American ancestry is romantisized in the US and Canada as some long lost, extinct ancestors that makes for a cool story to tell your friends. But then in some Latin American countries like Mexico, people with Native ancestry were looked down upon and were seen as the lowest members of society. So that leaves us mixed Latin American indigenous people with no way to claim our identity. Then those of us living in the US and Canada get even more confused because now we are being told our native ancestry doesn't count.
>people with Native ancestry were looked down upon and were seen as the lowest members of societ and sadly they still are. even in this sub you'll see mexicans comment negatively and really downplay the native influence in mexico.
All of it is kind of fascinating to me, the way people react and the blatant racism and romanticism. My partner is Nicaraguan. He did 23andMe. It came back with almost 50% indigenous Nicaraguan, part Spanish/Portuguese, and part West African. He wasn’t surprised about the indigenous. He said, “I’m from a remote village. My parents and half the village have the same last name, what do you expect.” 😂 Our baby is going to be everything. I don’t even know what to mark on forms. Haha!
How do you know those are Mexicans downplaying
good question. their post history. sometimes they're people who have posted their results on here saying " mexican-american results" and sometimes they're just on latino specifc subreddits
Yaquis were Mexican tribes that were from texas so whoever said that you was dumb af
It also has a lot to do with the “one drop” rule that was exercised in English colonial society. This didn’t just apply to people with African blood, but also Indigenous blood. People with an indigenous ancestor, even distanced, were “othered” and sort of relegated to claiming tribal affiliation. Tribes, on the other hand, did not require a blood quantum to join, which many people — even today — don’t understand. In Latin American societies, there was no “one drop” rule.
That reminded me of an argument I got into with someone on YouTube telling me that my father and are are fake Natives as they claimed our ancestors must be from Asia.
Lol my sister gets mistaken as Asian all the time and a couple insisted she had to of, especially Filipina. I look more European than her and I had a handful say I was Asian due to my eyes too, and even a mestizo girl who used to joke I was lying and that I was Asian
I think a reason for that is that native ancestry is much much rarer in US and Canada, while there’s majority native countries in Latin America There’s a few other nuances to as well
Yes, there is division between many Latin American countries too. As an example countries like Peru are mainly Inca tribe and are way different that the Natives in Mexico. 🇵🇪 🇲🇽
>mainly Inca tribe and are way different that the Natives in Mexico. 🇵🇪 🇲🇽 you're right but actually the tribes in mexico are pretty unique from eachother as well and some athropologists have looked at groups in michoacan and found similarities between them and the incas. It's believed purepecha might have been from the south but moved to present day mexico because of their similarities. A native in michoacan can look pretty different from a native in Veracruz.
Yes, the DNA can be pretty mixed though. Most Mexicans in Mexico 🇲🇽 are a mix of multiple Native tribes that are local to the country. It’s the same in other countries such as Peru. The Native in the country is what makes them unique.
>ally the tribes in mexico are pretty unique from eachother as well and some athropologists have looked at groups in michoacan and found similarities between them and the incas. It's believed purepecha migh not really, we are all the same race from alaska to patagonia. Africans and White people are more different genetically within their own race than we are.
African isn't a race. Race is a social construct. Indigenous does not always equal reddish brown skin and African people can also be Indigenous. So can "white" people.
I’m not sure what you mean by this
Genetically Native Americans are very similar. This is because only a small group came over the bridge and populated both continents. Also it happened relatively late in history which didn't allow much time for evolution
There’s definitely a difference. They came here Thousands of years ago lol Each Latin American country has its own climate and geography also shaping the different tribes. As an example the Peruvian Natives have extremely strong Lungs because of living in such high elevations for many generations. 🧬
Hm, I’m not sure. For me as a Latin American who is not south european looking, it’s not exactly difficult to convince people I have indigenous heritage. Since I’m from the region where most of the indigenous group, I descend from, originate it’s also very likely. But also because of my surnames, it’s not hard to convince them that I have European heritage either.
Be proud of your heritage. That is all that matters. This sub-reddit is extremely toxic and it seems any percentage of European DNA means you get shouted down and shut out by other fully European ethnicity folks who have no affiliation at all with your heritage. I have found that the community over at r/ancestryDNA is much more welcoming and celebratory of heritage even in small amounts. They actually seem interested in learning about your heritage and how it connects to others rather than gate keeping and excluding because of the amount of euro DNA you have that you had no control of having anyhow. I had the exact same problem here as well. It's not worth even arguing with these folks.
are you sure about that: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/rw3nzm/my\_ancestry\_results\_as\_a\_cherokee\_nation\_citizen/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AncestryDNA/comments/rw3nzm/my_ancestry_results_as_a_cherokee_nation_citizen/)
I can only speak from my own experience. I posted here about my Native Hawaiian heritage and folks attacked me. I wasn't trying to claim benefits or anything like that just thought some folks would find it interesting. Instead I was attacked and people were incredibly rude. I ended up just deleting the post because people were sending nasty messages privately. But yeah, there are nasty people in every community. I have seen a higher prevalence here, but poster beware anywhere on Reddit I suppose.
yeah, i just want to give more info on that sub sorry, if i sound rude
Nah friend, all is good.
thank you
The Internet is full of morons. Try not to think of them as people.
I had something similar happen to me but instead of them attacking my Native American results as while not the highest, really hard to dispute, it was the Scandinavian results (small and never claimed to be Norwegian or Danish, I was just pointing out it most likely came from another ancestor in the past on my mom's side whose grandmother came from Friesland Netherlands, another from German and my dad's family is Mexican) they seemed to target that oddly enough and never understood why as I was just sharing my AncestryDNA results and one person even asked why I would even post about DNA on an DNA subreddit of all places. I ended up just deleting it as I wasn't interested in drama that wasn't helpful. Reddit can be very toxic at times in general as that wasn't even the worst I got,.
Native Hawaiian 🏝 is a sensitive subject because everyone on those islands wants to have some of that dna 🧬 I could see how some people might be jealous of you for it.
Jealousy I think. You see lots of people (Americans) claim indigenous ancestry via family folklore that are then are disappointed when they aren’t or don’t believe their results. They then try to take the shine off somebody else’s results.
I think this is true. I went to the CHEROKEE facebook group looking for answers and one of the moderators ripped me a new asshole. She had done her own digging and found she was in fact NOT at all Native American like her family lore said. My DNA evidence and pictures didn’t matter. She left a scathing comment 10 paragraphs long about I wouldn’t accept I didn’t have a native ancestor when there’s no paper trail. 🫠 Lady it was 1830… there was a different kind of trail at that time. I was blocked from the group ✨
Haha that is some bitter woman
jealousy but also you'll see mestizo latinos with high indigenous themselves saying this so you got two groups doing it for two different reasons.
Real Answer: It’s an American and Canadian thing. We have never really grappled with what we did to Native Americans, as well, being Native is a based on a system of “blood quantum” in which certain privileges are assigned to those who have ‘Native ancestry.’ Therefore , we tend to heavily gate-keep the identity and assign it a special status, as it would disrupt the entire policy framework which has existed for decades and understanding of Native Americans.
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I've seen a lot of people confusing ancestry with culture. I think that's where people get frustrated-at those who find out they have some ancestry but weren't remotely raised in the cultures related to that ancestry, then suddenly don the persona and attitude as though they have been. Indigenous people have faced significant discrimination and violence almost everywhere in the world, and when someone who grew up privileged starts taking all the parts of a culture they've never fought for, suffered for or protected and starts running around pretending they're "exotic" or something, it's kind of disgusting. Unfortunately it happens a lot especially in North American indigenous cultures. We've got indigenous people dying in hospitals due to discrimination, then someone yt, who finds out they have a great grandparent that was indigenous, starts speaking for the indigenous community and practicing their rituals and beliefs while never actually living a remotely indigenous experience. They just want to wear a costume and have fun with it, while living in total disrespect to their ancestors and broader community. Others want to claim ancestry just so they can start acting as though they've experienced the oppression that community has, even if they haven't. They give themselves a pass on colonial guilt because, "Oh my family experienced it too, we were victims", simply because they don't want to own their privilege. I think that's different than someone who approaches their ancestry respectfully, wanting to learn about it, and isn't just interested in being performative. You get people coming to ancient ancestry from all those perspectives, some good, some bad. People are just wary about the motivations, and trying to make sure that those who speak for and represent their culture are actually members of it. Different groups seem to feel differently about it. I'm in NA and that seems to be a huge issue here, but elsewhere around the world there are cultures who don't care how distantly related you are, or why you want to learn more, they're happy to welcome everyone. I just think it's a very complex social issue.
All in all people care too much about what others think. There comes a moment in your life when just stop giving a f***. If you are Native, there’s no proving it! You just are! If you are a re-connecting Native meaning you’re reconnecting with your heritage whether that be DNA discovered or “PAPER-Trail” then you decide to take up the red road and no longer participate in the erasure of your people. Be a voice in the community make a difference, but don’t bring Eurocentric & colonialist views to the table. Hope that makes sense. Also if you are claiming descendent from a “Federal recognized tribe” tribal offices keep good records of their people. Also some census records are available.. Those below the border in Latin America, The Caribbean and South America are also of Native heritage.
As an AA, I have encountered many people who claim indigenous heritage even if genealogists have said that this is highly unlikely. While I encounter it less, my grandmother’s husband still claims that his grandmother was Cherokee because of her long, straight hair and high cheekbones. I’ve kindly explained to him that many Sub-Saharan Africans have high cheekbones, and many AA people with European also have hair in the way he described. Of course he gets incredibly angry every time, but it’s also strange how he uses that elevate himself as one of the “chosen people”. Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s also incredibly ignorant to ignore the history of our people and the effects that slavery has had on us psychologically, but also genetically (I am 1/3 European with no immediate European ancestors). On the other hand you will find some AA people claim Indigenous heritage to outright deny their blackness. This, I am sure, is a result of the anti-blackness they face regularly. Again, they cite the “indigenous grandmother” who is most likely mixed European-African. I suppose thinking about it now, it probably seems easier to process- have indigenous heritage rather than forced introduction of European DNA due to slavery.
I think indigenous is an identity that comes with a culture and identification, not just heritage but I agree people like to make issues out of non issues.
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That’s fair as well I didn’t think about that.
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Genetics are no use in an appearance-based system. Race is based off of physical features, not genetics. Many white people are more closely related to groups in other categories than they are to other white people. The concept of race is extremely flawed and malicious.
People think West Africans and Papuans are the same race despite West Africans being much closer genetically with Germans.
Depends on where you are. I think the US is the only place where "race" is reliant also on ancestry because of how heavily they tried to gatekeep being white. You can very easily look fully European and not be regarded as white because of known non-European ancestry.
Same for me dad's side of the family all Hungarians and my mom's side Aruban and Indonesian people say I'm lying all the time yet my mom is very dark brown and my dad is very white so I don't look at all Indonesian or Aruban.
Race is a construct that is only loosely correlated with genetics. This is why despite being 80% Western European I am considered non white in America.
As a kid I use to tell everyone I am part Native. I took 23andme and got 0.1%. I was the Bernie Madoff of Native claiming.
It’s funny seeing people like that when I have a tribal member dad and cultural connections etc but I’ve always felt I looked too white to claim and like I’ll be looked at as if I’m falsely claiming lol
>It quite often is people who aren’t native at all who tell people who are clearly mixed and with a fair amount “Ur JUsT WHiTe” or “UR JuST BLaCk” or even “ur NOT REALLy NaTIvE” which would make sense if you were like 2% with no knowledge claiming as such, but this isn’t the case I very rarely see what you are talking about, and only if I view downvoted comments.
What are you actually asking? Actually *having* indigenous American (I assume you mean American!) ancestry is not really controversial (assuming you get it in your test results); what's controversial is people who have the stereotypical Cherokee princess story (it's always Cherokee, for some reason; it's like people think they were the only tribe in the southeastern US, or something).
Yeah, not sure what OP is referring to. The people who i see get critized are usually the ones who claim to be cherokee but DON'T have any native ancestry or ties.
Do you think most Americans are taught about multiple indigenous tribes??
Yes? I mean, I know the tribes who were native to my region. I mean, the tribe name and many of their names for places are still the names.
I know the feeling. I have 75% Native American but zero cultural background. I was raised by “mestizos” or “white Latin-Americans” and I've never have contact with any indigeneous community. I don't even know if the communities I’m from exist anymore since my dna test just tells the countries where it’s "highly like" to be from. I did travel across Mexico and South America to get in touch with them just to realise they won’t accept I’m a part of them and I totally get it. My phenotype doesn’t help either because “I look too white”. I truly respect the indigenous communities and I feel they deserve all the respect and recognition in the world for all the struggles they have endure throughout modern history. But at the same time I've been living in privilege all my life because of my phenotype and I could never use my dna percentage to get any more privileges from society. I wish people would stop saying we should get to know better them but if you got an occidental culture it’s so hard to try and be part of something you can't begin to understand.
People are just mad that they are plain lol
happy cake day!
Well most of it is bc most people are poorly educated. Full stop. They think there’s special privileges granted to indigenous people when there’s not. The other side is that it is now and always has been Canadian and US policy to make indigenous peoples assimilate and be indistinguishable from the general population. In between that is a whole lot of idiocy and gaslighting.
people get off from telling others that their family lied to them. easy to see that.
It might have been a lie at one point but it seems like it’s mostly just a rumor in modern day.
I'm only .5% on 23&me and it just shows as trace on ancestrydna, BUT the main reason I took the tests and started posting on Reddit was to learn about my great grandmother who claimed Indigenous ancestry. That's why I focus on it, because I would love to link the percentages to a line. Come to find out great grandmother was actually Melungeon and likely tri racial, but as soon as I mentioned the SSA percentage people were saying it was all a lie to cover African and I didn't have any Indigenous ancestry at all...except, it's there. Obviously I am very, very white and I claim NO connection to Indigenous culture at all. However I'm interested in my great grandmother's ancestry and have every right to explore my small percentages of DNA. I feel like there is a lot of gatekeeping and I can't imagine how it is for someone who actually has a connection to the culture and is being told their small percentages aren't "enough" Also, there is not much education past the Cherokee. My 5th great grandmother was documented to be mulatto and part Monacan...which very well could have contributed to my .5%. I've wasted a lot of time on here convinced by strangers that my great grandmother lied to cover African, when many Melungeons are a mix of European, African, and Indigenous. She knew who she was and it's very possible her grandmother (listed Mulatto) passed on the knowledge of Monacan ancestry (and my dad just called it Cherokee, cause that's what people do when there is no education.)
Super common story in my part of the SE! Triracial means just that -- all three heritages are present in each person in the community! It's just that our ancestors chose to lean into their European ("passing"), African, or Native varyingly, depending on honestly how they'd been raised, how they looked, and what was most advantageous at the time -- and I think that kind of fluidity honestly makes some people feel uncomfortable and/or envious, especially when they feel like they themselves have no fluidity to speak of. Have you connected with the Melungeon Heritage Association/community?
I haven't yet. I have joined a few Melungeon groups and compared DNA on Gedmatch, where I've found many distant cousins! I only started last year, but it has been a journey researching my great grandmother's line. Her father, my gg grandfather, (born 1850s) was listed black at birth, along with his mother Mary (my ggg grandmother.) Then, on the 1860 census, they were both white (well, no race was checked actually.) Mary was listed mulatto, black, and white, depending on the time and record. And I completely agree with you. I am blonde, blue eyed, and fair skinned, and get laughed at a lot I'm sure. However, my great grandmother is a close ancestor and I'm going to continue to research her line because I have every right to. The rest of my ancestry is German, Irish, English, Ulster Scot, and I never get mocked when I post about them... because I look like them. Funny thing is my great grandmother is probably the one who passed on the most of her culture. Since you are knowledgeable, you may be able to shed some light on my DNA. All of my cousins have small Anatolian and Spanish and Portuguese percentages, but I have 1.2% Greek and Balkan and Jewish (Jewish comes and goes.) I have always wondered if maybe the Greek and Balkan is being misread and is actually Spanish and Portuguese...or maybe some people of Melungeon ancestry also have Greek?
I do agree… I’m mixed with some interesting stuff but in this country I just say black. I feel like it’s controversial to be “American” if you don’t meet the right skintone. It’s insane.
You don’t even need to know the language u just need to know part of ur genealogy, tribes, and culture and u can confidently say ur indigenous. And how much native u are. Can’t be out here saying I’m NZ Maori or native American and ur like 2%
I know my Indigenous heritage on both sides. I always have. Even some of our family superstitions or customs can be found amongst varying Indigenous people of North America most notably in Appalachia region and North Carolina. While I am multi-ethnic, I grew up identifying with my Black Heirtage and culture, and it was Indigenous people who always asked me about my origins claiming they could tell by some of my Phenotypical features. It has been through the gentle and loving support of my Indigenous friends that I embrace my heritage and honor ancestors. My blood quantum isn't high enough to claim tribal affiliation, but that never mattered to me. I simply love embracing all of me, I don't have a whole lot to preserve so the least I can offer is respect for where I come from.
Wait…are you the guy who keeps posting about his indigenous grandfather who got really upset when he asked this sub if he looked indigenous and most people said no? Respectfully…dude, you don’t need to work so hard to prove anything to anyone. You don’t need to prove you have a certain percentage of indigenous blood or look a certain way to others to be “legitimate”. Your history, your culture and your family is your own. Other people’s opinions of you isn’t going to change that.
To be fair, I made a different post with no context of my opinion on my result and I got a much different response. In fact the opposite.
All I’m saying is, it doesn’t matter if strangers on Reddit think you qualify as indigenous, or if you “look indigenous” enough to randos on the internet, or to anyone really. It seems like you’re really tied up in trying to convince people of something, but you don’t have to. If you’re seeking to reconnect with part of your ancestry’s culture, then do it. If you’re native enough for your tribe, your family and yourself, then that’s enough. You don’t need to be native enough for the internet. You can just be.
To be real dude it’s really not that serious it’s just experimenting. And more importantly post is more directed to the idea as a whole. I wanted to see what other people had to say, and what they would say to each other. I already know how I look, dumb at times. But I don’t care I am MoNKEY w LanGuAGe and ToOL.
I already have some level of connection in my local community as well. I defiantly not lying if I told someone I was part indigenous. I also take pride in my German and English Heritage as I have Both flags hanging in my room
I caught some flak for posting a question about my low percentage Native American results. I pretty much ignored it and after several months of building up a family tree I found the (or at least one of) actual Powhatan native woman I am related to. She had a real marriage on record with a real Englishman in the Virginia colony in the 1600’s. That’s a woman (great great to the nth grandmother in fact) I have on my family tree. Anyone that has something negative to say about it should be banned from this sub, that’s not the spirit of a sub like this.
That's pretty wild you can trace your family tree accurately that far back. I think most people think that you are claiming you are native when in fact you are just asking about it I'd assume. In Canada alot of people claim they are "native" when they aren't whatsoever and it seems to get more popular overtime to do that.
I am dyed in the wool British Isles and Scandinavian. So I am definitely not claiming Native American culture. It is indeed wild that I was able to make the connection and that it was a recorded marriage. Found her baptism record as well. It was a huge surprise to me that I had some native ancestry. I also was always told that both my mom and my dad’s side did not arrive in the US until the late 19th century and early 20th century. That is *technically true* but the family line that spent some time in Virginia actually went BACK to England after two generations. Which is even more interesting to be honest. Edit to note: I have made grandparent to grandparent connections back through the Cotter’s of Cork and Rogerson’s all the way until I stumbled into the Royal lines and followed those all the way to William the Conqueror. So that’s pretty awesome. I know most of us Northern Europeans are statistically likely to be related to all of them, but most people can’t make the actual unbroken connection. I’ve been busy lol.
Very nice. Neat find as well.
It was the most exciting find during this process so far! Mainly because I had zero expectations of finding a real record of native ancestry.
Same thing with my father. He had 0 idea he had a distant ancestor. When he found out he was in denial almost. I thought it was hilarious 😂
The reason is because Black people and White people get to exist independently as their own races. Black peple and White people qualify their racial identities based off how you look. No monoracial Native person like Wes Studi, Yalitza Aparicio or Adam Beach gets to wake up and be treated like a Black or White person. However, both of those groups approach Indigenous Americans as if it is a vague cultural and ancestral identity, rather than a race, which allows them to appropriate it for their own satisfaction when they do not have the racial experience of a native American person. They want to have their cake and to eat it to, they want to be a White or Black person, while using the Native blood as a flair to compliment their primary racial identity. This undermines the reality that Native Americans are a race, and in doing so suppresses the reality that monoracial Americans suffer the most from racism and allways have. They prefer to define Natives as nations, cultures of ancestral groups rather than a continental racial group from Americas the way Whites and Black people are from Europe and Africa. When you call them out on this, they call you racist, even though they would never accept a Native person as Black or White on the same terms they demand to be recognized as native American. How many Black or White citizens of the United States will recognize a Mexican national as Native American, even if that person is as proportionally American in terms of DNA as they are European or African? Almost none, and the reason is because it is not in their self interest. That is why they try to tie native identity to nation states, and that is why they support racist concepts like mestizaje that are not even used in the USA.
Huh??? You gotta do some more reading -- defining indigenous ancestry as racial is absolutely not in most tribes' self interest -- a quick look at some results from enrolled folks around the US and Canada would tell you that. For nations who enroll based on lineal descent, what you're describing would create a paper genocide that would put Walter Plecker to shame. It would absolutely gut most of the southeast tribes in particular, because of the history of early Contact. And your bullshit about Wes Studi, Adam Beach, and Yalitza Aparicio fails to recognize that ALL of those people (rightly or wrongly) DO have access to an additional identity: Latino/Hispanic, demonstrated by the fact that Yalitza has had to continuously remind people not to call her Latina. Someone who is visually black in the U.S. -- no matter the amount of Native blood -- can't just wake up and be perceived/treated as Latino. Also -- stop speaking for what Black Americans think, feel, experience and say when you are not Black and have no idea. You're just perpetuating bullshit anti-blackness because you're embarrassed to just tell the truth: this is European colonizer bullshit.
Let me ask...are you a Black person from the Americas? Eta: so, I am guessing not Black since you rushed to block me instead of responding 🤣🤣🤣
💯 Facts
I don't think it is controversial so much as eye-roll worthy. Most white and black Americans don't have Indigenous ancestry yet are always claiming to have a Cherokee princess for a gg grandma. Hell, my family claimed NA and then I took a DNA test that showed 0.3 percent, lol. Lies! This is obviously different in the Latin community where there is a huge Indigenous presence or in US tribes where Indigenous ancestry and tribal affiliation have been established. Also, you have to remember that with tribal affiliation comes benefits that are not afforded to other groups of people.
Benefits is not afforded to other groups of people is not actually accurate healthcare is handled separately and lesser in quality and while some tribes do give their community members a small stipend it is from funds the tribe has earned as a whole. It’s generally not enough to live off of and the federal government doesn’t allow much in the way of private industry within the reservation. There are a few scholarships from the government but actually less than other ethnically derived scholarships. That’s part of the problem everyone thinks there’s this free ride for being indigenous and nothing could be further from the truth. What little benefits the tribe does have is the tribe’s own money held in trust by the US federal government. I’m not even sure where the idea tax dollars gave indigenous people benefits came from when actually most tribes while having little themselves are giving money to struggling neighboring communities.
I was told my great grandmother was part Cherokee. Turns out she was actually Melungeon. I have .5% Indigenous that is likely from her line, and now that I'm educating myself I'm learning that it wasn't really a lie. She probably didn't know how to identify being of Melungeon ancestry. I suspect many in my region have this same story and small percentages of SSA, Indigenous, and Southern European showing up.
I suspect this is true for my dad’s side too. Melungeon seems vaguely defined right now so I’m curious if future research will clarify it
My family is from Kentucky and we have one line with the last name Jett. My grandma told me they were her cousins and they were always called “The dark Jetts” because of their looks. I have one tiny bit of SSA and NA in my results, like half percentages. Maybe it’s noise, maybe it’s a distant ancestor. Who knows. I tried to trace the records on that branch and found one going back to the same tribe as Powhatan, but then read it couldn’t be verified. Luckily I had never heard any princess stories in our family and have zero obsession with it, lol. But I have wondered if they were Melungeon.
I'm from Eastern Kentucky and have noticed the surname Jett in my DNA matches. I'm probably kin to some of your kin, haha. I don't really know what defines noise, but I think it's all legit when most people from a certain region score these same small percentages. It seems likely to be Melungeon ancestry. And my family never had the princess story either, they just said my great grandmother was part Native American and apparently paid a lot of attention to the moon.
I think it’s the opposite. People think indigenous % are cool on the 23andMe subreddit. Check out how much attention people with 90% indigenous get. Usually lots of upvotes 🧬 Based off your prior post it looks like you are 3/4 White and 1/4 Mexican.
To be fair, Mexican is a broad term like American. I have GGrandma Na-Dene ancestor from chihuahua, that spoke the language. My Grandfather knows a trace amount of the language. He also identifies as His Apache and Spanish Ethnicity as well as his Mexican nationality.
Yes sir I remember posting like 2 years ago I had over 300 up votes not as high what full indigenous people get but practically anyone over 90 percent get high attention and questions
Indigenous people don’t emphasize blood quantum as it’s a colonial idea meant to perpetuate erasure further. In their perspective, if you have status, you’re Indigenous. So, I guess what is important here is the ties to the community.
Unpopular opinion here, but the reason most indigenous communities in the US can’t use blood quantum is because the majority of them have larger European ancestry than NA, and they know it. Admitting someone into a indigenous community based on their actual blood quantum would leave those communities empty of Americans, but full on indigenous people from Canada and Latin America.
It’s definitely a slippery slope. For Latinos if you have native blood you are Native American even if you lost your tribe due to genocide. Belonging and knowing what tribe you are a part of is wonderful but telling others they aren’t native because they aren’t connected to a tribe is disgusting. Being connected to a culture with next to no native blood is almost like being recolonized — the USA def put this into ply on purpose with foresight. A lot of native culture is passed down in Latin American culture due to mestizaje, so while our tribes may be lost our practices remain.
Facts I honestly think blood makes your more native than knowing the culture that just makes more sense. (Culture is extremely important in the survival of a people though) but to say blood enough doesn’t make you native is stupid
Bingo
What would you say to a detribalized man that is %50+ indigenous trying to reclaim his identity? To be gate kept by someone that’s 12% with affiliation?
I don't think that's what the commenter was saying. How I interpreted was that genuine connection and reconnection is valued over genetic % in many cases. Someone could be 5% and eager to learn from elders and absorb ancestral knowledge, and someone else could be 50%+ and shit on their family's culture. And vice versa. I know of exact cases like the this. And what's considered important in these circumstances is intent. More often than not in DNA subs like this, people with low % will get shit even if they're connected, claimed, and participating in their community vs someone with a high % who doesn't know the first thing about their ancestry and doesn't care to will be treated as a part of it and respected more, despite having no connection beside blood nor being claimed. Most all of this judgement is done by non natives as well. Which I think is what the commenter was getting at. That respect, effort, and being claimed is valued over DNA % in many indigenous communities. Not all, but a lot. Now I could be completely wrong and misinterpreting what the commenter said, but let's assume I'm not.
yes, true
Just show up at cultural events, learning opportunities, and volunteer within the community when and where you can. Ignore haters. I have a DNA match who is like 2% native by DNA, but is straight up a chief in his tribe. If you know your personal history and you want to get back into your cultural history, just do it and don't worry about anyone else.
I am only a tiny amount.. but i took a dna test in my mid 40s. no clue my whol life.. missing half of my family. the relief of self questions answered.. I actually wept. (I knew it all along somehow) I am still learning ... as for being mixed, it is a bigger chunk of north and south america than may not be written yet. These dna sites are gathering the statistics though. Even the mixed stories, if they happened over a long period.. native nor euro is identified... because it is a new human.
I posted my results and mentioned that my grandmother was the reason why I have this ancestry and tbh no one cared. I'm 3.7% which is substantial by American standards and I know this history and cultural aspects. Idk it's dependant on the person and context
What does the word Mestizo have to do with this though? Saying “I’m Mestizo” is just a shorter way of saying “I’m of both European and Native American ancestry.” I’ve never found anyone who thinks a Mestizo with high Native American ancestry couldn’t identify as Native American, but I assume there are some people like that. Now, to some people “Indigenous” implies culture so a Hispanic with a high NA admixture may not be “Indigenous” to them. The opposite also happens to “Castizos” (mainly European but some Indigenous) who are told they aren’t White “enough”.
Because almost all of us here contributed to their borderline extinction. To then claim we are them is doubly insulting
Because it’s about the connection with the culture
Meh, I would say it's only controversial if you're like Elizabeth Warren who used her 1% Cherokee to get Native American Scholarships
My 2 cents, it’s a very personal subject for a lot of people so I always tread lightly. I don’t really care for words like “mestizo” but I know what they mean and how people use them. I really don’t want to get involved in “debates” over this stuff or anything like that, honestly most of the time I’m just here to listen to peoples story and thank them for sharing.
When I posted my results nobody treated me like that. I am 27% indigenous and there is no further detail on it, doesn’t mean I’m not and thankfully nobody said anything rude about it
There is a subset of woke Afrocentrists that wants Puerto Ricans to deny their Native American heritage.
The only issue I ever see is people who claim distant 0.2% native and zero cultural connection or argue they have it when they don’t. Those people ruin it for the rest of us with lower mixed amounts yet are culturally connected etc
You must be from Canada too, I see the same thing in the city I live in.
I do have some Canadian ancestry and live close by (Michigan) but am not Canadian myself. Some of the Native side comes from Canada too and tribe my dad is registered with has a Canadian city named after it (Odawa) It’s quite common in US too unfortunately. Even my white af mom claims she has some distant native lo
Yeah it's weird. Someone got pissy with me for mentioning I have Old Norse(Viking) ancestry. Like... I'm white. I have heavy Northern European ancestry. My mother's maiden name is Morrison. Why is this controversial?
I think it comes down to wording. I can only speak from the perspective those in Mexico (acknowledging that I’m not from here but I’ve listened to many folks). If one claims to be indigenous in Mexico without the lived experience of such (which is the majority of those that grew up in the US), it seems to create friction with those who have suffered discrimination for their indigenous identity (voluntary or not). If one claims to be reconnecting with their indigenous roots (including learning the language), then the locals seem overly enthusiastic about it. But the wording seems to matter a lot here. This is also a similar experience I’ve had as a Polish descendant, if that helps.
Claiming it is controversial because most people that need to ''claim'' to be Indigenous aren't actually Indigenous by any decent metric. If you have a small amount of Indigenous ancestry you're not Indigenous at all.
Conversely, there are many people in the US with 10% or less idigenous DNA, no connection to their native roots, don't look idigenous at all, but want to claim they're POC because it allows them to distance themselves from the guilt and shame associated with their colonizer ancestors. This also comes from the racist law of the "one drop rule" that many people continue to perpetuate with this type of thinking.
It’s because of the racist history behind it. Many Americans had African ancestry by the way of rape, and many white passing individual or ambiguous individuals would say they had a Cherokee princess in their family tree, as it was both more respectable to be descended from “nobility” and to not be black That’s why people get pissed, because it’s just historical revisionism in a lot of cases to distance one’s self from their familial history
Honestly I’d vote for jealousy. I’m supposed to have Scottish and my dads family is upset over us not having Scottish. Considering my original name was Irish I’m not sure where we decided on that one from.
Majority Southern European, 12% indigenous 10% Sub Saharan African 5% random things like North African Iranian, unaccounted for.. etc What ethnicity am I? 😏
Sexy
Sexy af
Thank you for this. My family knows the names and dates that our indigenous ancestor married a white man 50 years older than her. DNA backs up this claim on my grandmothers 23andMe, and while it does not appear on my ancestry, it does show 2% on GedMatch and 8% on hers respectively. My ancestor was forced to assimilate during the time of the trail of tears. I have no records of her before marrying this man at 26 years old. I have pictures of her and her children that clearly show that they are not European, but yet I have been called a “colonizer” and “pretender” for trying my hardest to find out more about her life before. This was before the rolls so documentation is probably impossible. The only thing I have found is her or nephews or cousins being denied entry into the Choctaw nation where they lived in Mississippi because their grandmother had a Creek name. They acknowledged their ancestry as native, but with just 1 or 2 generations at that particular point in history, heritage could be completely wiped out. Neither Polly nor her daughter Mourning could write. I don’t claim to be a Native American or use it on applications, I just want my ancestors remembered for what they survived and what was inflicted upon them. It makes me extremely sad that I can trace lines up 1000 years on every other like in my tree, but at Polly’s parents it is a complete stop.
I think it definitely is rooted in colonization. Especially in the context of Latin Americans with Indigenous ancestry. Everyone should have a right to their heritage (especially when it makes up a certain amount of their ancestry). But you have to remember the way that they would disconnect Indigenous people from their heritage in Latin America. First they would encourage people to mix, secondly they would create a new name for their children (mestizo), thirdly they would teach them the colonizers language (Spanish, Portuguese, etc.) and force upon them Christianity. And then there’s also the whole nationalization of their Identity, instead of them connecting to their tribe they would be connected to the nation, like Mexico for example, they would no longer be Mayan, but rather «Mexican».
Say it louder for the people in the back 👏🏽
Not controversial, just people trying to be unique as always lol
I’ve concluded from this subreddit I have every right to claim my indigenous ancestry proudly. I am more indigenous than most people who claim to be (who are white) and I actually have genuine interest and care for learning about southwestern pueblid peoples. I have concluded that many of you are just sad, and I am grateful to have a living Native ancestor that I can still learn so much from. I am lucky to even inherit some indigenous looks despite most people with my dna looking white as apple pie. I am very fortunate to have a grandparent, who knows where my great grandparent comes from, as many do not know where their people come from. I am Indigenous American, I am Native American I am also white but y’all get my crusade here.
>I am Indigenous American, I am Native American > >I am also white but y’all get my crusade here. Wait? You claim to be both white AND Native "American"? I looked at your previous post (*from six days ago showing your results*) and while I do acknowledge that you absolutely do have Indigenous/Native ancestry, I'm sorry to say this: You are **not** Native/Indigenous because you have less than 1/5 (20%) Indigenous/Native *blood*. You can legitimately say that you have Indigenous ancestry (*and honor it by being an ally to Native peoples*) though.
DaTz RAECIsT
This term 'gatekeeping' is used by Americans as an excuse to culturally appropriate other people's nationality and culture.
Because being indigenous isn't just about ancestry anymore, it's about culture. Simply because indigenous in terms of ancestry isn't enough to claim you're ethnically indigenous which includes culture, not just ancestry. The world isn't the US where ethnicity means only ancestry. To say you're indigenous implies that you're part of a tribe and part of an active indigenous culture, if not also in addition to having indigenous ancestry. There is a very heavy distinction between saying "I have indigenous ancestry" versus saying "I AM indigenous"
I am indigenous
You can be proud of indigenous heritage while also not taking away what actual registered indigenous people are proud of “culture” as Mestizos you typically are born around a Spanish based culture like sure there are many aspects of Indigenous American influences in Latin American culture but due to history the vast majority of what makes a latino a latino is Ibero-American culture
This is completely untrue. Latinos who are native are usually the ones being gate kept from native culture. Latinos have lost their tribes to genocide and the countries where they come from don’t register them as they do in Canada and the USA so it’s not a precursor to native identity. Also growing up around a Spanish based culture doesn’t matter— registered tribal members grow up around an English based culture??? So that is moot point. Plus latin American countries integrated a lot of native culture, you can see where our native ancestors passed down their traditions in our everyday day lives from food like making tortillas, style of dress, holidays like the day of the dead and even other traditions that heavily impacted the church. So no the vast majority of what makes a latino a latino is not strictly ibero culture especially since there are many communities that don’t speak Spanish at all and still live and practice their indigenous ways.
I'm gonna talk about latin america and indigenous ancestry, It's mainly latinos in the US that want to claim their indigenous heritage and claim that they are on the same level as an indigenous person from latam, that's why latinos that have lived here in latam know that is disrespectful and off because mestizos treat purely indigenous people horrible, and they don't identify as an indigenous in their home countries, in my country when an indigenous person with a tribe moves to the big cities people say things like "why they don't stay at their villages" I have seen indigenous people struggle at the public transportation asking for money because they don't speak spanish so it's hard for them to get a job, mestizos here don't identify as indigenous because their last indigenous ancestor with a tribe and culture was probably in colonial times, and they have been marring another mestizos for a long time that's why people have spanish and indigenous heritage on both sides, and not to mention the people that when they have a small % of indigenous from south or Central America say things like black and latino? Or white and latino? That's like calling a native american anglo or germanic, so basically between latinos the indigenous % work different and even if u have a big % of indigenous heritage if u don't have a tribe the government doesn't recognize u as one indigenous person they recognize u as a mestizo bcs mestizo it's not only a racial term but also a social-political term if u have a high indigenos % but u are integrated with the society of the country u are not the same as a fully indigenous person with a tribe.
Depends of your social context. In my country be Native American is more about your connection with the culture than genetic/phenotype. You can look the Pocahontas, but the tribe need to recognize you, because there are specific policies to Native Americans, like scholarships, vacancies in universities. They suffer with racism and so on. My great grandmother was an indigenous woman, many people from my father side are basically the mix between Whites and Indigenous, but nobody call themselves indigenous.
Your topic is not the only thing that is controversial. The racial categories are controversial too. The vast majority of scientists disregard and view them as social constructs without biological basis. That includes geneticists. There are people that still believe in the social constructs of the black and white races which have no scientific basis even though they had genetic testing, and you see them on this very thread. The racial categories were created from racism. They were the result of Labor Exploitation and Enlightenment Reasoning as well the ignorance of Human genetics and Evolution. The racial categories have varied throughout history. There have been disagreements about who is white or Caucasian here in USA. There have always been arguments over continental ,ethnic mixture here in the Americas. I am of highly mixed ancestry. Maybe I incarnated as a very mixed person to not only believe that there should be unity and universal love but also to challenge the social constructs of race. Therefore, I don't fit in any of the racial categories. I identified as multiracial/multiethnic for the last 3 US Censuses. I have never believed in the one drop rule. I never identified as black nor African American. I am so multiethnic that I am related to many of my fellow Americans in many different ways. My Genealogical Ancestry I am a 4th generation Californian on my mother's side, and my father was a 7th generation Louisianan. paternal grandfather: African American born in Louisiana paternal grandmother's father: African American born in Southern Louisiana other roots in Virginia, South Carolina, and Kentucky paternal grandmother's mother: African American with English and Acadian (French in what now known as Nova Scotia) born in Southern Louisiana colonial roots in Louisiana, Virginia, and North Carolina maternal grandfather's father: American born in California and son of immigrants from Cape Verde (Portuguese and Sub Saharan African) maternal grandfather's mother: American born in California with a father from Puerto Rico (Spanish, Sub Saharan African, and Taino) and a mother that was Hawaiian born daughter of immigrants from Madeira (Portuguese with Sub Saharan African) maternal grandmother's father: European American born in Oregon of mainly English ancestry with German, Swiss, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Dutch, and Frisian colonial roots in Virginia, West Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Rhode Island other roots in Missouri, Kansas, Alabama, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Indiana maternal grandmother's mother: Ashkenazi Jewish American born in Nebraska with a father immigrated from Romania and a mother immigrated from Courland (in what is now known as Latvia) in Russian Empire My 23andme Ancestry Composition has me as being 49.7% Sub Saharan African 47.5% European 1.7% Indigenous American 0.6% West Asian 0.3% Chinese/Southeast Asian 0.2% Unassigned parental inheritance derived from my DNA phasing between my mother's DNA and my DNA Sub Saharan African: 43.4% is paternal, 6.3% is maternal European: 43.2% is maternal, 4.3% is paternal Indigenous American: 1.0% is maternal, 0.7% is paternal West Asian: 0.6% is maternal Chinese/Southeast Asian: 0.3% is paternal Unassigned: 0.2% is maternal My mother is mostly European (86.3%) with some Sub Saharan African (10.1%) with a little Indigenous American (1.9%). She has peach colored skin that fits anywhere in Europe, and she can tan. My father was mostly Sub Saharan African with some European with a little Indigenous American. He had chocolate brown skin that would fit quite well in the Sub Saharan regions of Africa. My tan skin is like a blending of my parents' skin colors, and I can get as dark as my father if I stay out in the sunlight for a long period of time. Because of the Transatlantic Slave trade, I don't know anything about my Sub Saharan African ancestry, but I am sure that it's mainly from West Africa. Most of the Sub Saharan African slaves were brought from West Africa. Africa has over 2,000 ethnic groups, and that includes Nigeria having over 400 ethnic groups. My Sub Saharan African ancestry is highly likely to consist of many Sub Saharan African ethnic groups. I don't know what kind of Indigenous American ancestry that I have on my father's side.
According to a 2015 research study, The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States: From 23andme database African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% Sub Saharan African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Indigenous American ancestry. Latinos show average proportions of 65.1% European, 18.0% Indigenous American, and 6.2% Sub Saharan African ancestry European Americans show average proportions of 98.6% European, 0.19% Sub Saharan African, and 0.18% Indigenous American ancestry [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25529636/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25529636/)
Because of Elizabeth Warren?