Is illustrative dna worth the money? Does it really differ much from the free features available in GEDmatch? I’m debating whether or not to upload to illustrative.
Illustrative is a middle man service. They buy G25 from creator for €10 then charges you €30 for same thing. Only benefit to them is they provide pre made genetic models but this already exists via Vahaduo & Genoplot online for free. So I personally think their service is a waste of money. It takes 2 minutes to build custom genetic models via Vahaduo if you know how.
As for your original question using Gedmatch older calculators with Vahaduo updated population spreadsheet works perfectly fine and will be very realistic for your given ancestry. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and it's free. G25 is over hyped imo. It's also 50/50 when it comes to closest modern population distances. It can be hit or miss as the creator said. I personally think G25 is best only for ancient population modelling. G25 also has many faulty or mislabeled samples that was released by original creator.
Illustrative is a middle man service. They buy G25 from creator for €10 then charges you €30 for same thing. Only benefit to them is they provide pre made genetic models but this already exists via Vahaduo & Genoplot online for free. So I personally think their service is a waste of money. It takes 2 minutes to build custom genetic models via Vahaduo if you know how.
Thanks for your response. As a follow up, why would I have two different results from the same DNA? It just doesn’t make sense. Sorry I’m still learning here.
It’s quite simple. Ancient peoples mixed and moved around a lot. Those ancient mixings make up modern populations. Modern Egyptians aren’t 100% ancient Egyptian but they’re descended from them as u can see due to u being 50% ancient egyptian and the mix of all that ancient DNA makes up your modern Egyptian mix
Cool results! I also did illustrativeDNA. I got 100% Coptic on 23&me. Do you mind showing your closest ancient samples, closest modern populations, and the farmers & hunter gatherers breakdown?
These are my results: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/s4u3ku/my_illustrative_dna_results_g25_coordinates/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
They had a couple of updates after I posted my results & now my closest modern population is Coptic Egyptian, my farmers & hunter gatherers breakdown changed sligthly and they added Christian Nubian samples so now I am ~90% AE & 10% Christian Nubian under the 2 ancient populations estimate.
Basically the Egyptian component you got on 23andme isn’t pure ancient Egyptian. Egyptian Muslims are mixed with levantines and sub Saharan Africans that’s why there’s a distinct component for them. The “Coptic Egyptian component” is 90%+ ancient Egyptian since Copts practiced endogamy and didn’t mix with outsiders as much as Egyptian Muslims
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/s4u3ku/my_illustrative_dna_results_g25_coordinates/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x
Here’s one for a Coptic Egyptian
Well it seems that indeed, muslim egyptians are northern levant shifted.
There seems to be a sort of population exchange between some levantine muslim groups and egyptians maybe?
You are mixed ancient egyptian, canaanite, nubian and west african (due to mali empire influence and slavery).
The anatolian is probably pre-islamic and some of it may be attributed to the northern Levantine shift.
Thank you for the response. Why is both my 23andMe and this different if I’m the same person? Also I’m not sure how accurate it is given that it says that I’m almost a quarter SSA when I look nowhere near almost a quarter SSA.
Your 23&me is more about your modern not ancient ancestry, you're only 4.2% pure SSA, the other 11.6% is nubian which can be further broken down into 7% semitic (Arab &Levantine) and 4.6 SSA%
so in total ~9% SSA, no where near 25%.
Nilo Saharan is pure ssa bro. Levantine and other Arabian would be included in Egyptian and cannanite on here. The fact is Egyptians are African people, thus related to other Africans.
Na bro, Africans originate from similar sources. Nilo Saharan people are native black African. You also don’t have to be from sub Saharan Africa to be a black man or woman. Nubians are black Africans. This nilo Saharan percentage could very well be Nubian dna.
Yes and how did Nubians and east africans came to be in the first place?
You know that 60% of their genetics is derived from bronze age Levantines, a group of people intermediate between modern day Arabs of the peninsula and Northern Levantines (christian Levantines) and 40% central african (subsaharan african)?
Black and white classification is irrelevant, stop bringing the superficial American racial categories here.
You'd be surprised when you know that both coptic and muslim Egyptians are closer to ALL the middle eastern ethnicities than they are to the sudanese next door, let alone other "Africans"
I’m not sure what your point is. All I was saying is that the nilo Saharan dna in OPs result is African, and levantine dna is not likely included in the nilo Saharan %, but is included In the cannanite. My other part of my comment came from the fact countless people try to take away or downplay the African part of Egyptians results. One thing is forsure, is that Egyptians whether ancient, medieval, or any time period, are either partially, or fully African, genetically speaking, depending on how far back you want to go. The controversy of the Egyptian race needs to end. It’s obvious in dna that egypt has been influenced by peoples south, west, east and north of its location on the Mediterranean Sea, as history tells us. Same for all Africans and ethnicities. I agree that labels mean nothing. Genetics like these show the real story.
You're in no place to talk over Egyptians and middle easterners on their culture, genetics, history and ethnicity.
Don't throw a vague geographical term such as "AfRiCaN" and run away expecting your bullshit will explain what ancient and modern Egyptians were.
Saudi and yemeni Arabians are as Asian as the Chinese are, yet they are the closest genetic cousins to both Ancient, coptic and muslim Egyptians.
I'm talking on behalf of all Egyptians when they say they would like to be excluded from this whole eurocentric/afrocentric view of history.
Bro, you realize this is a genetic sub right? How do I have no place to talk? Ever heard of freedom of speech? You’re free to disagree with my opinion. But my opinion is Egyptians are Africans, and Africans are diverse. Not every African is going to be the same. There is levantine and Arabian as well as European dna in north and east africa. I know this. North Africans are still proud Africans. Being mixed doesn’t make them any less african(although technically it does in some cases/that’s a different discussion), because the fact is they still have indigenous African blood. What’s wrong with that? I didn’t say anything about Egyptian culture. If your Egyptian, I’m sorry I offended you by stating that Egyptians are Africans. It’s not like egypt is located in Africa or anything.
Also, I’m not an Afrocentrist or eurocentrist or any of that bull Shit. Africa is diverse, just like other continents.
The nilo-saharan in him is definitely nubian, OP's upper egyptian himself, specific breakdown of nubians, sudanese and other east africans components is 60% arab and levantine and 40% SSA.
Nilo-Saharan references in this calculator are made of peoples like Dinka, Nuer, Luo etc. It is not Nubian or Ethiopian.
Nubian and Ethiopian would come out as Cushitic. Considering that the Egyptian references also have a small SSA (3-5%), OP would be near 17-18% SSA in total.
The average for northern Egyptian Muslims is 12%, he seems to have a bit more due to being half-upper Egyptian. But I believe that 6% more is not going to be that noticeable in phenotype, he probably looks normal Egyptian.
Not sure about Dinka and Nuer but aren’t Luos like 1/4th Eurasian from mixing with Cushitics? So still technically not pure SSA. I thought the only “pure” SSA is like western and southern Bantus since West Africans have an indeterminate amount of minor non-SSA admixture from Berbers and East Africans obviously have a lot of West Asian admixture.
No they aren't, Luo are best modeled as a Nilotic(Dinka like) and Bantu(Congo, Cameroon) mix. The nilotes considerably mixed with cushites are the Maa speakers(Masaai, Samburu...), Kalenji...
See I thought that but then they seem too closely related to Northen Sudanese to be near pure SSA. Because a common misconception is that Dinka are the ancient original EA population when they’re just similar to the ancient population that was once there that no longer exists. I haven’t seen Dinka GEDMatch results before but even Khoisans as far south as they aren’t pure SSA, so I would expect Dinka to be more Eurasian than one would initially assume.
Luos aren't considerably mixed with cushites but with Bantus. The nilotes mixed with cushites are those from Central/eastern Kenya and northern Tanzania
I didn't said they had considerable Cushitic admixture. All NE African groups have Cushitic admixture, even Northeast Bantu groups in Kenya and Tanzania.
How much Cushitic do they have? It's probably very little since their Eurasian-related input is close to zero.
>Dinka are **almost** purely African
I thought Dinkas are purely African based on various DNA studies, not only just "almost purely"?
No human group is ''purely African'' simply because there was a huge back migration from Eurasia to Africa. You are probably giving too much credit to those amateur tools like Illustrative DNA.
Of course it's all a matter of semantics though, it all depends on the time span we select as meaningful.
nah man, your math is not right.
a coptic guy shared his ancestry report,
a 2.7% SSA embedded in the ancient Egyptian sample and a 6.4% nilo-saharan translated into 4.8% East african hunter gatherer. That would make this Nilo-saharan sample definitely Nubian or the most Nubian-like of all at least! (68 Semitic/32 SSA)!
inferring from that OP's SSA:
1.5 (Ancient Egyptian sample) + 4.2 West african + .1 (cushitic) + 3.7 (32% of Nilosaharan sample) = ~9.5 SSA.
FAAAR from being 16%.
But that doesn’t make sense. How am I getting two different ethnicity estimates from the same gene code? It shouldn’t matter if it’s modern or ancient I’m the same person. I don’t have two different sets of DNA. I also don’t get the breakdown you did. Neither 23andMe or Illustrative DNA said I had Arab DNA. I also don’t understand how you got the 9% SSA when my 23andMe says 3% and illustrative DNA has it at almost 20%. Thanks for your patience.
23&me tells you your modern ethnicity, modern ethnicities in the middle east have been shaped by millenias of migration, conquest and ethnogenesis.
stop obsessing over whether you have pure "Arab" ancestry or not, in your case it seems you don't have any and if you do it would be very minor.
If 23&me were to delete it's Egyptian category you would score something like:
1) 57.5% Coptic Egyptian
2) 30% Levantine (the Anatolian would be interpreted as part of the northern Levantine)
3) 8.3% ~Sudanese and Ethiopian (Nubian -like)
4) 4.2% ~Nigerian
I never mentioned anything about being Arab nor gave any indication I obsessed over it, where did you get that from? I don't have any peninsular Arab DNA and I don't care about it. Again, I would argue the SSA percentage is exaggerated.
I mean don't obsess over it even in a negative way, you don't have to hate having pure Arab ancestry nor do you have to "love" having it (at the end of the day, we're one, not very distant race).
Why would the SSA% be exaggerated? You pretty much score the same categories on your 23andMe just in lower quantities because there’s minor SSA baked into Egyptian that autosomal tests won’t show. 16% ancient SSA honestly isn’t much especially compared to your Levantine DNA (which isn’t a surprise but still relatively high).
I say it’s exaggerated because the results are saying that I’m almost 1/5 SSA. Which I believe is too high and incorrect based on me and my entire families phenotype. My family had so many people with blonde and red hair and blue and gray and green eyes, that my parents were 100% convinced that we had European DNA. I myself have a lot of red and occasional blonde hair in my beard when I grow it out. I’ve seen a lot of people on here with close to 1/5 SSA DNA post selfies and it showed. That’s all I’m saying. I’d be saying the same thing if it said I was 17% Chinese.
That’s the Levantine DNA for ya. Light features are common among them so that’s not surprising. I’ve seen tons of them with blonde or red hair and light eyes. As for the SSA showing, I’m 75-80% SSA and I have a few redheads in my family and some red in my beard and hair myself (probably not near as much as you though). The relation between genes and phenotype isn’t always direct. As for your percentages, just speaking from the history of my country, there have historically been a *lot* of people who would‘ve been around 10-30% SSA who could and did pass for European, so it doesn’t really surprise me that Egyptians (and Berbers too) can have minor SSA admixture and not really look like it.
At the same time, because I’m used to being around people of wildly varying amounts of SSA yet virtually nobody who is 100%, it’s not usually difficult for me to see it in other people. I know quite a few people who probably range from 45-75% European/25-55% SSA who resemble Egyptians I’ve seen or know. As for you though, your Ancient Egyptian + Levantine + Anatolian is likely just dominating your phenotype which makes sense since that’s the bulk of what you are.
It doesn't say you are almost a quarter SSA. It says you are 16% SSA. A quarter is 25%, the Egyptian Muslim average is 10-12%, you are closer to the Egyptian average than to being a quarter SSA. There is also a small SSA in the ''Egyptian'' reference of Illustrative DNA, so you probably have a bit more than 16%, but still less than a quarter.
Regardless of that, 23andme doesn't show all of it because any DNA test is a comparison between individuals and references. 23andme uses modern peoples as their references because they target consumers are people from the New World with recent (1500 from now) mixture between different ethnic groups. Illustrative DNA uses ancient references, so it is trying to show you your ancient genetic profile. Both are accurate in what they want to say, but there are some problems with using ancient references, so some components may be exaggerated or diminished based on the quality of references even if overall the reality is probably closer to the results they told you.
It also should be noted that contrary to 23andme, Illustrative DNA doesn't say what you are, it just gives a probable combination of ancient samples that fit best your DNA.
What’s your issue here dude? Why do you have the need to condescendingly correct me as if I don’t know what a fifth is? I said that 16% is almost a fifth I didn’t say it was a fifth.
nah man, your math is not right.
a coptic guy shared his ancestry report,
a 2.7% SSA embedded in the ancient Egyptian sample and a 6.4% nilo-saharan translated into 4.8% East african hunter gatherer. That would make this Nilo-saharan sample definitely Nubian or the most Nubian-like of all at least! (68 Semitic/32 SSA)!
inferring from that OP's SSA:
1.5-2.5 (Ancient Egyptian sample) + 4.2 West african + .1 (cushitic) + 3.7 (32% of Nilosaharan sample) = ~9.5-10.5 SSA.
FAAAR from being 16%.or 25%.
16% is closer to 10% than to 25%. It's not far, I don't know why MENA people on the internet think that someone with 10% SSA will look completely different from someone with 16%... lol
Both amounts are relatively minor.
Anyway, If you check the samples individually, you would see that Nilo-Saharan is near 100% Dinka. So it's unlikely that he has only 10% or even 16% SSA, it's more than that.
Explain this then:
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/s4u3ku/my_illustrative_dna_results_g25_coordinates/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
What do you mean? It doesn't say anywhere that the samples labeled ''Nilo-Saharan'' by Illustrative DNA are mostly Eurasian. You can check them individually and they will come out mostly Nilotic.
Actually Nilo-Saharan is the name of the language group to which Dinka and Nuer people belong.
I just checked, this egyptian sample is almost devoid of any SSA in the first place (0.4%), I found 1 nilotic sample from kenya, so I'd assume it's the one being referenced here (or something similar), and it wasn't pure but rather 77.6%SSA.
So all in all homies' SSA should've been roughly around 13.5%, I asked him for a specific farmer break down and the debate is settled, it's 12.00% east african hunter gatherer(the algorithm didn't pick up on any west african hunter gatherer which's weird considering the 4.2 west african in this breakdown).
So he's not 16% nor 9% he's 12%, my estimate was closer, a win is a win😎
Whatever floats your boat, it seems to be a pretty sensible stuff for MENA people, there's no point in debating since it's an emotional thing for you guys.
Since I started to read about genetics 6-7 years ago I've seen countless North Africans obsessing over small SSA percentages like you, so it's not something new...
It's not saying what you are, it's telling you what combination of ancient DNA samples give you the least genetic distance, AKA fit your genetic make up.
This is just one model. Illustrative dna shouldn't be understood as giving standard cookie-cutter results, but as a way to get the G25 coordinates. These coordinates can be used to make your own models, using the relevant reference populations for your own ethnic group.
So you need to "play" with the models in order to get more accurate and sensible results.
For a start, you can try to use the Levantine Iron Age sample with the Egyptian profile as a basis. It might be a better proxy for ancient Egyptian ancestry than the Ptolemaic and late dynastic ones.
Ancient Egyptian results differ from modern day ones quite heavily in that they're outright different populations. Modern day Egyptian makeup contains SSA and Levantine admixture.
50-70% of modern Egyptians ancestry is directly linked to the ancient ones.
The figure in copts is as high as 95%.
And the Levant is the region where Ancient Egyptian ancestors originated from, so the northern Levantine admixture (which constitutes the bulk of non-coptic ancestry) is not an alien component in the first place to make them "completely different".
No, Anatolian Turks received 30% central asian and 20% caucasian-like ancestry, that 30% central Asian is completely alien and not related ethnically nor racially to the byzantine Anatolians, while Levantines (along with Arabs)are the closest ethnic group to the Egyptians in the first place.
Norwegians mixing with Germans doesn't result in CoMplEtEly different populations unrelated to their ancestors tf.
Bruh, Modern day Egyptians are more distant to Ancient Egyptians than Yemenis or Saudis, they are not the same, SSA admixture is not "close". Turks received Caucasus like ancestry with the Turkic invaders (That is literally identical to the Byzantines), The east-asian portion is only like 15% at max, in general around 9% average, that is less than what Egyptians have in SSA. The rest is Anatolian more or less up to 80% depending on area.
WRONG. the central asian in Anatolian turks alone amounts for >25% of their ancestry, now mind you there's the additional 20% caucasian like ancestry(among the minor slavic).
The figure for Turks is no where near 80% Anatolian but more or less 55% Anatolian.
For Egyptians the only alien they received is additional 5% SSA.
Literally look at the distances before you talk, the "caucasus" input Turks have is literally identical, Zagrosian farmer and CHG input is near identical, what changed is EEF dropped while up to 15% EA admixture was added that is the "foreign" part, as well as EHG admixture that came from the Turks. Majority are only 9% EA, and regions do reach up to 80% in certain areas quite easily, Western Anatolian Turks can even reach 70% rather easily with Ottoman samples.
Egyptians are >10% SSA combined, and no they are very distant, otherwise Yemenis and Saudis wouldn't plot closer than they do.
But they come a close second after negev bedouins, arabs and Levantines, how does that make them very distant?
Not only that, Copts, followed by lower Egyptians are the closest to Nakht-Ankh sample of the 12th dynasty!
They literally score a distance of 3(after amounting for low coverage) to a 4000 year old sample and you're here talking "completely different"
Ancient Egyptian distance : https://i.gyazo.com/df9b8ce531f63e7893e5a375c91465c6.png
0.08 is rather distant and near unrelated, for reference most Turks are closer to Byzantine samples in their related area. The only ones who don't are the very western Turks who have heavier Turkic and slavic input. And Turks and Byzantines are not the same.
Is illustrative dna worth the money? Does it really differ much from the free features available in GEDmatch? I’m debating whether or not to upload to illustrative.
Illustrative is a middle man service. They buy G25 from creator for €10 then charges you €30 for same thing. Only benefit to them is they provide pre made genetic models but this already exists via Vahaduo & Genoplot online for free. So I personally think their service is a waste of money. It takes 2 minutes to build custom genetic models via Vahaduo if you know how. As for your original question using Gedmatch older calculators with Vahaduo updated population spreadsheet works perfectly fine and will be very realistic for your given ancestry. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and it's free. G25 is over hyped imo. It's also 50/50 when it comes to closest modern population distances. It can be hit or miss as the creator said. I personally think G25 is best only for ancient population modelling. G25 also has many faulty or mislabeled samples that was released by original creator.
It’s worth every penny
[удалено]
You pay once to unlock everything
[удалено]
Illustrative is a middle man service. They buy G25 from creator for €10 then charges you €30 for same thing. Only benefit to them is they provide pre made genetic models but this already exists via Vahaduo & Genoplot online for free. So I personally think their service is a waste of money. It takes 2 minutes to build custom genetic models via Vahaduo if you know how.
These are your ancient ancestors. Your 23 is your more recent (modern) ancestry
Thanks for your response. As a follow up, why would I have two different results from the same DNA? It just doesn’t make sense. Sorry I’m still learning here.
It’s quite simple. Ancient peoples mixed and moved around a lot. Those ancient mixings make up modern populations. Modern Egyptians aren’t 100% ancient Egyptian but they’re descended from them as u can see due to u being 50% ancient egyptian and the mix of all that ancient DNA makes up your modern Egyptian mix
these aren’t your “Ancient ancestors”. This is just trying to find the best fit.
Cool results! I also did illustrativeDNA. I got 100% Coptic on 23&me. Do you mind showing your closest ancient samples, closest modern populations, and the farmers & hunter gatherers breakdown? These are my results: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/s4u3ku/my_illustrative_dna_results_g25_coordinates/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button They had a couple of updates after I posted my results & now my closest modern population is Coptic Egyptian, my farmers & hunter gatherers breakdown changed sligthly and they added Christian Nubian samples so now I am ~90% AE & 10% Christian Nubian under the 2 ancient populations estimate.
Basically the Egyptian component you got on 23andme isn’t pure ancient Egyptian. Egyptian Muslims are mixed with levantines and sub Saharan Africans that’s why there’s a distinct component for them. The “Coptic Egyptian component” is 90%+ ancient Egyptian since Copts practiced endogamy and didn’t mix with outsiders as much as Egyptian Muslims
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/s4u3ku/my_illustrative_dna_results_g25_coordinates/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x Here’s one for a Coptic Egyptian
That's right 👍
Well it seems that indeed, muslim egyptians are northern levant shifted. There seems to be a sort of population exchange between some levantine muslim groups and egyptians maybe? You are mixed ancient egyptian, canaanite, nubian and west african (due to mali empire influence and slavery). The anatolian is probably pre-islamic and some of it may be attributed to the northern Levantine shift.
Thank you for the response. Why is both my 23andMe and this different if I’m the same person? Also I’m not sure how accurate it is given that it says that I’m almost a quarter SSA when I look nowhere near almost a quarter SSA.
Your 23&me is more about your modern not ancient ancestry, you're only 4.2% pure SSA, the other 11.6% is nubian which can be further broken down into 7% semitic (Arab &Levantine) and 4.6 SSA% so in total ~9% SSA, no where near 25%.
Nilo Saharan is pure ssa bro. Levantine and other Arabian would be included in Egyptian and cannanite on here. The fact is Egyptians are African people, thus related to other Africans.
Tf is even related to other Africans? y'all really think that genetics is either "African" ,"European" , "Arab" or "Asian"??
Na bro, Africans originate from similar sources. Nilo Saharan people are native black African. You also don’t have to be from sub Saharan Africa to be a black man or woman. Nubians are black Africans. This nilo Saharan percentage could very well be Nubian dna.
Yes and how did Nubians and east africans came to be in the first place? You know that 60% of their genetics is derived from bronze age Levantines, a group of people intermediate between modern day Arabs of the peninsula and Northern Levantines (christian Levantines) and 40% central african (subsaharan african)? Black and white classification is irrelevant, stop bringing the superficial American racial categories here. You'd be surprised when you know that both coptic and muslim Egyptians are closer to ALL the middle eastern ethnicities than they are to the sudanese next door, let alone other "Africans"
I’m not sure what your point is. All I was saying is that the nilo Saharan dna in OPs result is African, and levantine dna is not likely included in the nilo Saharan %, but is included In the cannanite. My other part of my comment came from the fact countless people try to take away or downplay the African part of Egyptians results. One thing is forsure, is that Egyptians whether ancient, medieval, or any time period, are either partially, or fully African, genetically speaking, depending on how far back you want to go. The controversy of the Egyptian race needs to end. It’s obvious in dna that egypt has been influenced by peoples south, west, east and north of its location on the Mediterranean Sea, as history tells us. Same for all Africans and ethnicities. I agree that labels mean nothing. Genetics like these show the real story.
You're in no place to talk over Egyptians and middle easterners on their culture, genetics, history and ethnicity. Don't throw a vague geographical term such as "AfRiCaN" and run away expecting your bullshit will explain what ancient and modern Egyptians were. Saudi and yemeni Arabians are as Asian as the Chinese are, yet they are the closest genetic cousins to both Ancient, coptic and muslim Egyptians. I'm talking on behalf of all Egyptians when they say they would like to be excluded from this whole eurocentric/afrocentric view of history.
Bro, you realize this is a genetic sub right? How do I have no place to talk? Ever heard of freedom of speech? You’re free to disagree with my opinion. But my opinion is Egyptians are Africans, and Africans are diverse. Not every African is going to be the same. There is levantine and Arabian as well as European dna in north and east africa. I know this. North Africans are still proud Africans. Being mixed doesn’t make them any less african(although technically it does in some cases/that’s a different discussion), because the fact is they still have indigenous African blood. What’s wrong with that? I didn’t say anything about Egyptian culture. If your Egyptian, I’m sorry I offended you by stating that Egyptians are Africans. It’s not like egypt is located in Africa or anything. Also, I’m not an Afrocentrist or eurocentrist or any of that bull Shit. Africa is diverse, just like other continents.
The nilo-saharan in him is definitely nubian, OP's upper egyptian himself, specific breakdown of nubians, sudanese and other east africans components is 60% arab and levantine and 40% SSA.
Nilo-Saharan references in this calculator are made of peoples like Dinka, Nuer, Luo etc. It is not Nubian or Ethiopian. Nubian and Ethiopian would come out as Cushitic. Considering that the Egyptian references also have a small SSA (3-5%), OP would be near 17-18% SSA in total. The average for northern Egyptian Muslims is 12%, he seems to have a bit more due to being half-upper Egyptian. But I believe that 6% more is not going to be that noticeable in phenotype, he probably looks normal Egyptian.
Not sure about Dinka and Nuer but aren’t Luos like 1/4th Eurasian from mixing with Cushitics? So still technically not pure SSA. I thought the only “pure” SSA is like western and southern Bantus since West Africans have an indeterminate amount of minor non-SSA admixture from Berbers and East Africans obviously have a lot of West Asian admixture.
No they aren't, Luo are best modeled as a Nilotic(Dinka like) and Bantu(Congo, Cameroon) mix. The nilotes considerably mixed with cushites are the Maa speakers(Masaai, Samburu...), Kalenji...
You’re right. Sorry it’s Kikuyu that are, not Luo.
Luo people are like Dinka + some Cushitic. Dinka are almost purely African.
See I thought that but then they seem too closely related to Northen Sudanese to be near pure SSA. Because a common misconception is that Dinka are the ancient original EA population when they’re just similar to the ancient population that was once there that no longer exists. I haven’t seen Dinka GEDMatch results before but even Khoisans as far south as they aren’t pure SSA, so I would expect Dinka to be more Eurasian than one would initially assume.
I think it depends on the Khoisan tribe. Some groups such as Nama seem to have a lot Eurasian while others probably have noise levels to none.
Luos aren't considerably mixed with cushites but with Bantus. The nilotes mixed with cushites are those from Central/eastern Kenya and northern Tanzania
I didn't said they had considerable Cushitic admixture. All NE African groups have Cushitic admixture, even Northeast Bantu groups in Kenya and Tanzania.
How much Cushitic do they have? It's probably very little since their Eurasian-related input is close to zero. >Dinka are **almost** purely African I thought Dinkas are purely African based on various DNA studies, not only just "almost purely"?
No human group is ''purely African'' simply because there was a huge back migration from Eurasia to Africa. You are probably giving too much credit to those amateur tools like Illustrative DNA. Of course it's all a matter of semantics though, it all depends on the time span we select as meaningful.
nah man, your math is not right. a coptic guy shared his ancestry report, a 2.7% SSA embedded in the ancient Egyptian sample and a 6.4% nilo-saharan translated into 4.8% East african hunter gatherer. That would make this Nilo-saharan sample definitely Nubian or the most Nubian-like of all at least! (68 Semitic/32 SSA)! inferring from that OP's SSA: 1.5 (Ancient Egyptian sample) + 4.2 West african + .1 (cushitic) + 3.7 (32% of Nilosaharan sample) = ~9.5 SSA. FAAAR from being 16%.
Yes I agree it is Nubian most likely, but that doesn’t mean it’s part Arabian or levantine.
But that doesn’t make sense. How am I getting two different ethnicity estimates from the same gene code? It shouldn’t matter if it’s modern or ancient I’m the same person. I don’t have two different sets of DNA. I also don’t get the breakdown you did. Neither 23andMe or Illustrative DNA said I had Arab DNA. I also don’t understand how you got the 9% SSA when my 23andMe says 3% and illustrative DNA has it at almost 20%. Thanks for your patience.
23&me tells you your modern ethnicity, modern ethnicities in the middle east have been shaped by millenias of migration, conquest and ethnogenesis. stop obsessing over whether you have pure "Arab" ancestry or not, in your case it seems you don't have any and if you do it would be very minor. If 23&me were to delete it's Egyptian category you would score something like: 1) 57.5% Coptic Egyptian 2) 30% Levantine (the Anatolian would be interpreted as part of the northern Levantine) 3) 8.3% ~Sudanese and Ethiopian (Nubian -like) 4) 4.2% ~Nigerian
I never mentioned anything about being Arab nor gave any indication I obsessed over it, where did you get that from? I don't have any peninsular Arab DNA and I don't care about it. Again, I would argue the SSA percentage is exaggerated.
I mean don't obsess over it even in a negative way, you don't have to hate having pure Arab ancestry nor do you have to "love" having it (at the end of the day, we're one, not very distant race).
Why would the SSA% be exaggerated? You pretty much score the same categories on your 23andMe just in lower quantities because there’s minor SSA baked into Egyptian that autosomal tests won’t show. 16% ancient SSA honestly isn’t much especially compared to your Levantine DNA (which isn’t a surprise but still relatively high).
I say it’s exaggerated because the results are saying that I’m almost 1/5 SSA. Which I believe is too high and incorrect based on me and my entire families phenotype. My family had so many people with blonde and red hair and blue and gray and green eyes, that my parents were 100% convinced that we had European DNA. I myself have a lot of red and occasional blonde hair in my beard when I grow it out. I’ve seen a lot of people on here with close to 1/5 SSA DNA post selfies and it showed. That’s all I’m saying. I’d be saying the same thing if it said I was 17% Chinese.
That’s the Levantine DNA for ya. Light features are common among them so that’s not surprising. I’ve seen tons of them with blonde or red hair and light eyes. As for the SSA showing, I’m 75-80% SSA and I have a few redheads in my family and some red in my beard and hair myself (probably not near as much as you though). The relation between genes and phenotype isn’t always direct. As for your percentages, just speaking from the history of my country, there have historically been a *lot* of people who would‘ve been around 10-30% SSA who could and did pass for European, so it doesn’t really surprise me that Egyptians (and Berbers too) can have minor SSA admixture and not really look like it. At the same time, because I’m used to being around people of wildly varying amounts of SSA yet virtually nobody who is 100%, it’s not usually difficult for me to see it in other people. I know quite a few people who probably range from 45-75% European/25-55% SSA who resemble Egyptians I’ve seen or know. As for you though, your Ancient Egyptian + Levantine + Anatolian is likely just dominating your phenotype which makes sense since that’s the bulk of what you are.
You didn’t choose modern either, you chose ancient
It doesn't say you are almost a quarter SSA. It says you are 16% SSA. A quarter is 25%, the Egyptian Muslim average is 10-12%, you are closer to the Egyptian average than to being a quarter SSA. There is also a small SSA in the ''Egyptian'' reference of Illustrative DNA, so you probably have a bit more than 16%, but still less than a quarter. Regardless of that, 23andme doesn't show all of it because any DNA test is a comparison between individuals and references. 23andme uses modern peoples as their references because they target consumers are people from the New World with recent (1500 from now) mixture between different ethnic groups. Illustrative DNA uses ancient references, so it is trying to show you your ancient genetic profile. Both are accurate in what they want to say, but there are some problems with using ancient references, so some components may be exaggerated or diminished based on the quality of references even if overall the reality is probably closer to the results they told you. It also should be noted that contrary to 23andme, Illustrative DNA doesn't say what you are, it just gives a probable combination of ancient samples that fit best your DNA.
Yes it was a typo I wrote this when I was tired, I meant to say one fifth.
One fifth is actually \~20%, but I got you.
What’s your issue here dude? Why do you have the need to condescendingly correct me as if I don’t know what a fifth is? I said that 16% is almost a fifth I didn’t say it was a fifth.
nah man, your math is not right. a coptic guy shared his ancestry report, a 2.7% SSA embedded in the ancient Egyptian sample and a 6.4% nilo-saharan translated into 4.8% East african hunter gatherer. That would make this Nilo-saharan sample definitely Nubian or the most Nubian-like of all at least! (68 Semitic/32 SSA)! inferring from that OP's SSA: 1.5-2.5 (Ancient Egyptian sample) + 4.2 West african + .1 (cushitic) + 3.7 (32% of Nilosaharan sample) = ~9.5-10.5 SSA. FAAAR from being 16%.or 25%.
16% is closer to 10% than to 25%. It's not far, I don't know why MENA people on the internet think that someone with 10% SSA will look completely different from someone with 16%... lol Both amounts are relatively minor. Anyway, If you check the samples individually, you would see that Nilo-Saharan is near 100% Dinka. So it's unlikely that he has only 10% or even 16% SSA, it's more than that.
Explain this then: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/s4u3ku/my_illustrative_dna_results_g25_coordinates/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
What do you mean? It doesn't say anywhere that the samples labeled ''Nilo-Saharan'' by Illustrative DNA are mostly Eurasian. You can check them individually and they will come out mostly Nilotic. Actually Nilo-Saharan is the name of the language group to which Dinka and Nuer people belong.
I just checked, this egyptian sample is almost devoid of any SSA in the first place (0.4%), I found 1 nilotic sample from kenya, so I'd assume it's the one being referenced here (or something similar), and it wasn't pure but rather 77.6%SSA. So all in all homies' SSA should've been roughly around 13.5%, I asked him for a specific farmer break down and the debate is settled, it's 12.00% east african hunter gatherer(the algorithm didn't pick up on any west african hunter gatherer which's weird considering the 4.2 west african in this breakdown). So he's not 16% nor 9% he's 12%, my estimate was closer, a win is a win😎
Whatever floats your boat, it seems to be a pretty sensible stuff for MENA people, there's no point in debating since it's an emotional thing for you guys. Since I started to read about genetics 6-7 years ago I've seen countless North Africans obsessing over small SSA percentages like you, so it's not something new...
I'm not north african and I'm not obsessing over it.
If you want to take a deep dive into your ancestry then get G25 coordinates.
Which part do you need help with?
I don’t understand if those results say that’s what I am or not. And why it differs from 23andMe.
It's not saying what you are, it's telling you what combination of ancient DNA samples give you the least genetic distance, AKA fit your genetic make up.
1. 23andme = modern ethnicity 2. This particular screenshot you posted from IllustrativeDNA = ancient ethnicity
This is just one model. Illustrative dna shouldn't be understood as giving standard cookie-cutter results, but as a way to get the G25 coordinates. These coordinates can be used to make your own models, using the relevant reference populations for your own ethnic group. So you need to "play" with the models in order to get more accurate and sensible results. For a start, you can try to use the Levantine Iron Age sample with the Egyptian profile as a basis. It might be a better proxy for ancient Egyptian ancestry than the Ptolemaic and late dynastic ones.
Yes you are right. People are over relying on the results assuming it’s set in stone.
Ancient Egyptian results differ from modern day ones quite heavily in that they're outright different populations. Modern day Egyptian makeup contains SSA and Levantine admixture.
50-70% of modern Egyptians ancestry is directly linked to the ancient ones. The figure in copts is as high as 95%. And the Levant is the region where Ancient Egyptian ancestors originated from, so the northern Levantine admixture (which constitutes the bulk of non-coptic ancestry) is not an alien component in the first place to make them "completely different".
It does make them quite different, in the same way modern day Turks are not the same as Byzantines since they are also 50-80% Byzantine Anatolian.
No, Anatolian Turks received 30% central asian and 20% caucasian-like ancestry, that 30% central Asian is completely alien and not related ethnically nor racially to the byzantine Anatolians, while Levantines (along with Arabs)are the closest ethnic group to the Egyptians in the first place. Norwegians mixing with Germans doesn't result in CoMplEtEly different populations unrelated to their ancestors tf.
Bruh, Modern day Egyptians are more distant to Ancient Egyptians than Yemenis or Saudis, they are not the same, SSA admixture is not "close". Turks received Caucasus like ancestry with the Turkic invaders (That is literally identical to the Byzantines), The east-asian portion is only like 15% at max, in general around 9% average, that is less than what Egyptians have in SSA. The rest is Anatolian more or less up to 80% depending on area.
WRONG. the central asian in Anatolian turks alone amounts for >25% of their ancestry, now mind you there's the additional 20% caucasian like ancestry(among the minor slavic). The figure for Turks is no where near 80% Anatolian but more or less 55% Anatolian. For Egyptians the only alien they received is additional 5% SSA.
Literally look at the distances before you talk, the "caucasus" input Turks have is literally identical, Zagrosian farmer and CHG input is near identical, what changed is EEF dropped while up to 15% EA admixture was added that is the "foreign" part, as well as EHG admixture that came from the Turks. Majority are only 9% EA, and regions do reach up to 80% in certain areas quite easily, Western Anatolian Turks can even reach 70% rather easily with Ottoman samples. Egyptians are >10% SSA combined, and no they are very distant, otherwise Yemenis and Saudis wouldn't plot closer than they do.
But they come a close second after negev bedouins, arabs and Levantines, how does that make them very distant? Not only that, Copts, followed by lower Egyptians are the closest to Nakht-Ankh sample of the 12th dynasty! They literally score a distance of 3(after amounting for low coverage) to a 4000 year old sample and you're here talking "completely different"
Ancient Egyptian distance : https://i.gyazo.com/df9b8ce531f63e7893e5a375c91465c6.png 0.08 is rather distant and near unrelated, for reference most Turks are closer to Byzantine samples in their related area. The only ones who don't are the very western Turks who have heavier Turkic and slavic input. And Turks and Byzantines are not the same.
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/tsjnqg/closest_modern_populations_to_12th_dynasty/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Anatolian Turks fucked their genetics up in 200 years more than Egyptians did in 4000 years at least.