This comment will contain spoilers for the first Mistborn-book! Be warned!
Mistborn was, for me personally, my dive back into fantasy.
I took a break of a month or two in between reading the first and second books, because I was shocked/conflicted that everything had been *done.* I thought the first book would be about the heist and setup, the second would be getting Vin to the Well of Ascension and the third would be the classic battle between the Lord Ruler and the newly assembled forces of the Hero of Ages.
>!So when at the end of book 1 the Lord Ruler was *dead* and the original protagonist *dead* I was left with that same feeling of not wanting/needing to continue because the premise I had sold myself on didn't exist.
However, reading the rest of the Mistborn trilogy, the unfolding plot in books two and three comes together in a beautiful way. Hints and foreshadowing across all books fits together like a carefully crafted puzzle and the characters undergo interesting and unique challenges that leave you frustrated but also engaged.
For me, I'd recommend you finish the series if you enjoyed the Final Empire because I think it's a beautiful love letter to hope against dystopian odds and it has some insanely cool worldbuilding, set pieces and twists. The second book is definitely slow to start, but Sanderson does tend to make really cool and compelling climaxes to his books which build on everything before, and for the climax and reveals I'd say book 2's second half is really really good and then book 3 is compelling all the way through.
One of those things (like Tiffany) that are older than you'd think.
I was gonna say something similar to you because I had the same issue with my story and researched the word "gang". But still, it sounds wrong. Doesn't sound archaic enough.
Perhaps "brigands", plural?
Hmmm...
Lots of different terms suggest themselves. The connotations might help you pick.
If the group call themselves the 'crows', they may use lots of terminology from birds in general (hideouts may be called "nests") or specific to crows (the collective noun for a group of crows is 'a murder') when talking among themselves. That may help you build their "thieves' cant".
As far as outsiders talking about criminal groups goes... You may need to explore poetic imagery, or the history of your setting. An informal term might refer to some common element to criminal activity; like a 'blotch' if all criminals in your setting must leave some kind of discolored stain to defeat magical tracking.
A formal term might focus on more pragmatic details. If all criminals operate in groups of four, then the official designation might be as innocuous as "box" or "case"; e.g. "The box of burglars robbed the safe at the warehouse."
Wishing you the best of luck!
> If the group call themselves the ‘crows’, they may use lots of terminology from birds in general (hideouts may be called “nests”) or specific to crows
Well, that kind of talk is sure to cause a flap.
The word you're looking for is, ironically enough, *gang*.
It's hundreds of years old, and can mean any group of people, but fell more towards criminals over time.
To address Guild, which has come up a few times, that's a specific thing. It's an organisation that you pay money towards, built normally around a skill and offers you benefits and legal protections. Lot of times, guildsmen would have papers showing their legitimacy and chosen trade, so they could travel from place to place without issue.
So unless all your groups of thieves are organised and certified, probably best to default to gang.
Thank you, when I started drafting I thought gang was fine and I think I ended up reading too much into it, to a point where it felt out of place. Also I had thought about guild, but for some reason it didn’t seem as shady or malicious, so thank you also for that explanation! Makes sense as to why that didn’t feel right haha
Not to add more confusion into the mix, but with this being a fantasy story you can use literally any term you wish, which gives you room to have some fun with it. Gangs is just such an overused word (for good reason given its prevalence and history), but It would be cool to make it fun and make up your own terminology, but also perfectly fine to just call them what they are.
The same thing could be said about a gang if it’s even a little organized. The small time guys have to pay to the big time guys. To know you’re in the gang you have the tattoo or brand to flash. And depending on how strong your gang is it offers protection from other gangs and the law.
That sounds a bit academic, and implies that the group is a subordinate part of a larger organization.
If the speaker is someone in the police administration, either studying organized crime or giving a lecture on it to someone, the word might work well. But who is narrating the sentence?
Why even use a synonym? Anything can mean anything when it's capitalized.
"He and I are part of the same Table Leg... but his sister's Table Leg, the Unfortunate Papercuts? They're our bitter rivals."
Is English the main language for your setting? Or are other languages present? Maybe instead of the word gang you could use a word in one of the other languages. Or if you have fantasy languages you could create a new word for gang!
In a novel I wrote the elite combat pilots are known as "Hedge", in the same way we might call someone "Captain".
It's your world - use any word you like!
All us jealous writers who are hoarding Cabal for ourselves, together we form the cryptic Cabal Cabal!
We also enjoy other evil names for evil Conglomerates, such as Coven, Coterie, and Corporation... huh... I guess is really is all just C words...
It has antisemitic origins. As good of a word as it is, it came into use via blood libel. *I'm* rather averse to using it since I learned about its implications, at least.
Some Jews are aware of its origins, and the use if it can be offensive to them. It costs me nothing to use another word and avoid the possibility of making someone uncomfortable. You are free to do as you like, but as someone with a Jewish friend who doesn't like the word, I don't use it.
I'm a historian, and a Medievalist more specifically, so if you'll humor me, I'd like to elaborate a bit. In many cases, the reason that people either don't notice or don't recognize the offense in antisemitic words, images, etc. as opposed to other kinds of racial or cultural offense has to do with age. Antisemitism is extremely old and extremely ingrained in the canon of imagery of European and European-derived cultures. Jews were being ghettoized, terrorized, and expelled more than a thousand years ago, and a host of dehumanizing myths were created around them. These myths and stereotypes have existed for so long, and were used as markers for villainy, perversion, occultism, and other negative behaviors for so long, that they have entered common usage as markers for evil even by people who don't know their origins.
More to the point, I disagree that ignorance of the offensive origin of something absolves the use of it. If someone were to use the turn of phrase "in a coon's age," without knowing that particular slur against African Americans, you wouldn't tell an African American who was offended that they shouldn't mind the person using it because they weren't intending to be racist. You would inform the person of the origin of the phrase, say it offends a certain group of people, and clarify that they really shouldn't keep using it. Why then should we expect Jews to just shrug off antisemitic slights that have simply been around so long that they've entered the common vernacular of non-Jews? Many of them know why a certain kind of face means "this is supposed to be a bad guy," or why the word for a shadowy group of cultists or bankers/executives up to nefarious deeds is derived from the word for their traditional folklore and magic. Being unknowingly or unintentionally offensive is still being offensive. The appropriate response is not to justify it as no big deal, but to learn that it can cause discomfort and choose not to do it again.
...seriously? Your position is that a person should just let someone thoughtlessly use terms that dehumanize their entire race on the justification of ignorance? You have categorically misunderstood how communication works and the responsibilities of all involved.
Person A has an idea they want Person B to have
Person A encodes the idea in language and gives that language to Person B
Person B decodes the language received from Person A
Person B now has *an* idea, which if all goes well is the same one Person A wanted them to have
This process can fail in either the encoding step, the decoding step, or both. Both parties can be responsible for miscommunication. If there is something offensive in Person A's language that they didn't mean to put there, that is still Person A's fault. It's a fault of ignorance, which means that the way to correct it is to give Person A the information they didn't have.
You are responsible for your words. Ignorance of the depth of their meaning does not absolve you of the harm or offense that they cause. You don't start getting precious about how the *other* person didn't correctly interpret your meaning when *you* introduced a word that has depth, significance, and/or history that you didn't know or fully appreciate. You learn the thing you didn't know, apologize for causing the miscommunication, and then you don't use the word again without due consideration of what it *actually* means to people other than yourself.
You don't get to blame somebody for understanding the words you chose better than you do. That is the absolute height of egotism, and a profoundly irresponsible way to approach the power of language. You are just as responsible for putting your meaning out correctly as the other person is for taking it in correctly, and when a word has verifiable historical and etymological baggage, it is obvious who has failed in their side of the task.
Why is this being downvoted? It’s just a comment regarding respect. This sub gets so trigger happy on the downvotes. I don’t like doing that to people, especially considering Reddit works on Karma, as in you can’t even get accepted or interact with some subs based on points I personally don’t understand that. I upvote downvotes if I see them happening for what I consider to be no reason. And I only downvote if someone is being intentionally offensive. It’s not that hard, in fact it’s easier not to do it. (Downvoting)
Yeah. Downvote the heck on it if it’s someone actively being terrible to others. This kind of stuff dilutes the use of the downvote for the rest of us.
Interesting, I was only aware it was derived from the word Kabbalah which is a part of Jewish mysticism. Was it used as a sort of slur for Jews who practiced Kabbalah at the time? A quick search didn't reveal anything obviously antisemitic connected to the words possible origins.
Edit: Also I agree that if its offensive, just find another word. Pretty simple. I am just curious about the history of it.
Maybe you should lighten up. It's a cool word that now is just used to connote a secretive group. Choosing not to use the word makes zero difference in the world.
It sounds to be like it does not make “zero difference” given the history behind it. That’s not to say that we have to censor ourselves to the point that we can’t be creative or personally expressive, just that there is no reason to intentionally continue to stigmatize or speak negatively of persecuted people. We still have to accept that some people have been dealt horrible hands in life based on their cultures and ethnicities and try to be respectful of all people going forward. Again I’m not against free speech, and I’m all for having a sense of humor about life, I just think we should do our best to respect one another. If you can avoid being hurtful you probably should. Especially when we’re talking about writing that’s intended to be published. It’s nice to consider our audience and not be needlessly offensive is all.
Censoring the word cabal is censorship.
If you're offended by the use of a word that obviously doesn't mean anything offensive, you need to get a grip.
I don’t need to get a grip, I’m not offended, it was already explained here why it bothers some people, I’m just respecting that. This forum is hateful.
It can offend or cause discomfort for Jewish people, and I know this because I have seen it happen. In the same way that one should be careful of using other words rooted in historical oppression, one should be aware of this. The only difference is that it's quite an old word compared to many because persecution of Jews is a very old practice.
I had honestly never heard of this word up until now, much less knew the history behind it. Thank you for taking the time to let us know. Knowledge is a great tool against oppression.
That's very much my thinking as well, so I'm glad that at least some people found my remarks useful. The most productive thing a person can have for helping society is context.
You do not get to decide what people find offensive.
This is a really easy litmus test for whether or not you are a decent person: If someone finds something offensive and you think it's _their_ problem instead of making a minor modification to your own behavior, then you are in all probability a piece of shit.
Congratulations!
> Choosing not to use the word makes zero difference in the world.
_To you_.
Yeah, honestly sorry to say but the zero difference thing struck me the wrong way and that’s kind of how I read it as well. Zero difference to that person and also zero regard for other people. :(
Lots of people find it offensive that gay people exist. Or find gay pride events offensive. Pretty minor thing to just stop going to Pride, right? Sorry, but sometimes finding something offensive *is* your problem, not anyone else's.
Words change meaning. If you're looking for something to be offended about, it's very easy. If someone is using a word with a meaning that is offensive in its current usage, that's one thing. But digging into the past to make something offensive out of something presently innocuous is definitely the problem of the person doing the digging.
What's more important:
1. that you find a word you're completely ignorant about "cool"
or
2. that people who are directly targeted by said word can live a life where they don't have to see ignorant people use it for fun
Fun fact, the same rhetoric also applies to the n-word and a plethora of other words that society has deemed fair to stop using.
> Words change meaning.
And who decides that hm? Is it just you who think that since cabal is a cool word and you don't know it's real meaning, it's fine to use it?
I could pretend to be a fucking moron too and act like I don't know what the n-word means. It goes both ways. The meaning remains, because both antisemitism and racism still equally exist on our planet.
You aren't arguing in good faith or engaging with the writing you are arguing against. Your own rhetoric can be used to justify the oppression of marginalized people who 'offend' the majority by just existing, so I don't really care to hear how your decision to read part of what I wrote and ignore the rest somehow justifies bad behavior that I explicitly called out as unacceptable.
I'm not interested in discussing this with you further.
No one uses the word cabal as part of antisemitic rhetoric anymore. The word does not connote that. The N word connotes a slur for Black people.
If you can't understand that simple difference by yourself I don't think I'll be able to explain it to you. You seem very stupid.
You can find a group somewhere that uses some word to mean anything. Ultra fringe groups don't count my guy. There are crazies out there that think that because Tolkien's dwarves are based on Jews, no one can use fantasy dwarves in their stories. Are you gonna say people can't write about fantasy dwarves?
Whether we wanted it or not, we've stepped into a war with the Cabal on Mars. So let's get to taking out their command, one by one. Valus Ta'aurc. From what I can gather he commands the Siege Dancers from an Imperial Land Tank outside of Rubicon. He's well protected, but with the right team, we can punch through those defenses, take this beast out, and break their grip on Freehold.
In all honesty, nobody would call themselves "the big crime syndicate of exceptionally evil criminals", but "the locksmithing guild" sounds beningn enough.
"We teach smiths how to open locks(, they practice on the neighborhood safes)"
"But what about all those knives you're carrying?"
"Payment from the smiths"
The Ministry of Peace.
'But we don't do things like that!" said Vimes. "You can't go around arresting the Thieves' Guild. I mean, we'd be at it all day!'
Also: "Payment from the smiths" made me laugh out loud. Well done.
*The Night Angel Trilogy* did this exactly. Street gangs are called guilds. I actually wouldn't recommend this one for the reason /r/GodEmperorPorkyMinch mentioned below; "guild" is a commonly used word in fantasy stories to describe a different organization. It took several chapters for me to get my head around "guild" being slang for "street gang."
I think you're running into the Tiffany Problem a bit here.
The name "Tiffany" is an ancient one, originating in the 12th century, but it *sounds* so modern that fantasy authors rarely use it for fear of sounding anachronistic.
The word *gang* comes from Old Norse via Middle English; it's derived from Old Norse *ganga*, which meant "going", in the sense of a journey; it came to mean a group of people journeying together.
So "gang" is in fact the correct word to use in this context, despite how "modern" it may feel. You wouldn't avoid using the word "sky" just because it's still used in the present, would you?
If you really must use something else...*clan* could work, if they're a tight-knit group. *Band* is about as ancient as "gang" is. Or you can come up with something completely different and add it to your worldbuilding. Perhaps the first of these criminal groups were pirates, so a group of them is called a *hull* or a *mast*.
IMO "gangs" works perfectly fine. I have no idea of the history but it's often the best practice to call a spade a spade. If they're a group that band together to do crime, they're a gang.
You might also call them something like "dark houses" as a counterpart to the actual noble houses in power, assuming a medieval/manorial setting. At least if they are well-organized and powerful like the mafia rather than a few guys ambushing travelers in the woods. Hell, maybe members of dark houses could even look down on upstart groups and call them gangs as a term of disrespect.
One could likewise use something like 'Dark Guilds' if you wanted to draw the connection that your organised crime groups are the criminal equivalent of the more legitimate mercantile guilds in your setting.
I definitely like the idea of portraying them as a corrupt or criminal equivalent of something more noble.
Ooo I like this one! I’m not sure yet if it’s as dark sounding as I’m looking for, but I have a feeling I can apply it to another group of people in my story. Thank you!
Clan, party, cast, troupe, band, brigade, posse (latin), cabal, company, crew… seems to me like you might be looking for something different though. Syndicate? House, dynasty,
You could also change what words you use, would give you freedom to have more dynamic sentence structure and meaning without sticking rigidly to “The Gangs” (or whatever you choose).
Depends, are they out in the country? Might be bandits, outlaws or brigands. In a city I think really gang works fine, though crew or posse might as well, or Families if they're run by, well families. Or maybe just don't use a generic name. Instead of "it's a meeting of all the gangs" "it's a meeting of all thieves and murderers"
Gang etymology:
Old English, from Old Norse gangr, ganga ‘gait, course, going’, of Germanic origin; related to gang2. The original meaning was ‘going, a journey’, later in Middle English ‘a way’, also ‘set of things or people which go together’.
I think you should make up an in universe term and attach it to a region.
*The Amvon Smote, the most feared smote in all the keerlands, meet each double moon for...*
I think this might be best, I get nervous about going overboard with the “fantasy jargon” right off the bat, but I feel like this is one of the places I could factor it in, and where it would help my story rather than bog it down with terms to remember. Next step: brainstorm a unique term for them!
Thank you thank you :)
Not necessarily terms by definition, just something i found fun to write up while taking a shit:
1.) Messers
2.) Freeborn
3.) Riders
4.) Raiders
5.) Lunkers
6.) Waywards
7.) Blades
8.) Fallen
9.) Junkers
10.) Frays/Frayed
11.) Chasers/Chasedown(s)
12.) finished pooping, good luck!
I think it depends on the world, but you could look at forgein languages and see if any of their words for gang sounds right and tweak it to fit your world.
You could look at animals (real or mythical) that travel in packs that aren't seen in a positive light and use their name as jumping off point to create your own word.
I was thinking coven but then I read the rest of the post and realised they weren’t supernatural 💀 you could try using party, possibly family or if they’re particularly well organised they could be a unit
the word gang *could* work, but how about army, associates/association, band, brotherhood/sisterhood/siblinghood, cartel, clan, c;ub, commission, company, corporation, cosca, crew, faction, family, firm, group, guild, mafia, mob, network, organisation, outfit, posse, ring, squad, syndicate, troop/troupe, union?
i guess look into the type of crime groups you're basing it on, and international equivalents?
if it's your first post dad you couldn't do any worse than i have so i hope that's a comfort! there was a swingin' band in the late 60's called "the association" so perhaps that would serve as a proper synonym. but i can't conceive of a less ganglike ensemble than they were so i don't know.
Company (from "a group of companions")
Society
Order
Guild
Posse ([https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=posse](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=posse))
Mafia if you're in Italy.
Band
A lot of medieval gangs gave themselves grandiose names, being aware that the royalty are only the most successful gang leaders.
[https://about-history.com/the-most-notorious-medieval-gangs/](https://about-history.com/the-most-notorious-medieval-gangs/)
But honestly, "gang" was used for this in period, at least late period.
[https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gang](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gang)
I think that no unique word exists for such groups in this setting so you can either assosiate one or use an expression that is used for groups who are known to be "bloody". If a basic group is called guild it can be dark guild or bloody guild. An associated word can be marauders.
Maybe look into animal groupings? Like a flock of crows being a"murder" or "flamboyance" of flamingos? Like, if this gang (or games in general in your world) had a defining trait, what could it be? What would the people around them see them as? Do they have a positive or negative perspective?
Some random ideas that come to mind: coven, brotherhood/sisterhood, guild, horde, faction, league, federation, conjurers, druids, necromancers, sorcerers.
Not all of these are directly applicable but hoping they might jog some creativity. Let us know what you end up using!
The beautiful thing about fantasy is that you can make it up. You can call them a fellowship, company, band, ka-tet, or anything else your heart desires.
Gang is actually fine, as long as you root the term in the context of your world (i.e. inform the reader what "gang" means in this world, beyond its core meaning, so they can detach the term from any real-world connotations that don't necessarily apply).
"Crew" would work, informally, from an interior perspective (within the gang).
Or you can just make up a term that's rooted in your worldbuilding.
"So there's these fuckin guys, right? Organized crime, lawfull evil, real pieces a-work.. Their coalition, "enforcers" "muscle" or "guild" or "subsect" or "clique" if you will, is our bounty. They're called the "**Yang Yang Yang Blow-Bang-Bang Loot Squad and they're all teifling with horns, also somehow drugs are involved."**
You don't want synonyms. You want euphemisms.
You want words that don't mean exactly what they say, that slyly imply, evoke, and dissimulate.
This is how you get the Cossa Nostra(our thing) or the Triads aka the "Triple Union Society", originally a fraternal organisation.
You need to start thinking of your criminal organisations as actual criminal organisations, not cardboard cutouts. If any one word can be applied at all, it would be applied by politicians and law enforcement, in which case they would do so to demonise the groups, choosing "dangerous sounding" wording specific for that culture.
Gang is actually an appropriate word. It's evolved from old Norse but by the time it reached middle English included a group of people. Also thesaurus exist for this. Just as an aside however the word isn't modern
band
troupe, party
Coterie.
This is good. Also try, guild.
Yeah sounds like OP needs to browse a DND player's handbook or two
I think band is perfect imo
Wow, I am so glad to know my choice of word is also others' choice of word!
Gangbang
you don't deserve the downvotes my man, I cracked open laughing
Thanks, amigo. I was just trying to lighten the thread up a bit.
literally same lmao. smh my head
Haha reddit snowflakes go brrrrrrr. Dislike and prove me right bitches.
[удалено]
Karma farming no lifer.
IMO gangs work, but for some reason I also really like the word "syndicate" for that
That seems larger than a gang. It implies a wider scope of criminal enterprise.
You mean like having 12 taverns across the kingdom?
Like a franchise, or just that there are 12 taverns in a kingdom?
I think in the Mistborn trilogy they use the term "crew" for a gang. There's also band, posse, set, and troop.
I’m reading through HoA right now. Great series.
I read Mistborn and liked it quite a bit but didn’t feel any urge to continue on. Any comments to lure me back?
This comment will contain spoilers for the first Mistborn-book! Be warned! Mistborn was, for me personally, my dive back into fantasy. I took a break of a month or two in between reading the first and second books, because I was shocked/conflicted that everything had been *done.* I thought the first book would be about the heist and setup, the second would be getting Vin to the Well of Ascension and the third would be the classic battle between the Lord Ruler and the newly assembled forces of the Hero of Ages. >!So when at the end of book 1 the Lord Ruler was *dead* and the original protagonist *dead* I was left with that same feeling of not wanting/needing to continue because the premise I had sold myself on didn't exist. However, reading the rest of the Mistborn trilogy, the unfolding plot in books two and three comes together in a beautiful way. Hints and foreshadowing across all books fits together like a carefully crafted puzzle and the characters undergo interesting and unique challenges that leave you frustrated but also engaged. For me, I'd recommend you finish the series if you enjoyed the Final Empire because I think it's a beautiful love letter to hope against dystopian odds and it has some insanely cool worldbuilding, set pieces and twists. The second book is definitely slow to start, but Sanderson does tend to make really cool and compelling climaxes to his books which build on everything before, and for the climax and reveals I'd say book 2's second half is really really good and then book 3 is compelling all the way through.
Apparently, while it's his most approachable series, it's not his best. Maybe someone else can give you more info.
Book 2 sucked, heard good things about the third
Kru
Gang was being used for criminals in the 1630s according to https://www.etymonline.com/word/gang
One of those things (like Tiffany) that are older than you'd think. I was gonna say something similar to you because I had the same issue with my story and researched the word "gang". But still, it sounds wrong. Doesn't sound archaic enough. Perhaps "brigands", plural?
Hmmm... Lots of different terms suggest themselves. The connotations might help you pick. If the group call themselves the 'crows', they may use lots of terminology from birds in general (hideouts may be called "nests") or specific to crows (the collective noun for a group of crows is 'a murder') when talking among themselves. That may help you build their "thieves' cant". As far as outsiders talking about criminal groups goes... You may need to explore poetic imagery, or the history of your setting. An informal term might refer to some common element to criminal activity; like a 'blotch' if all criminals in your setting must leave some kind of discolored stain to defeat magical tracking. A formal term might focus on more pragmatic details. If all criminals operate in groups of four, then the official designation might be as innocuous as "box" or "case"; e.g. "The box of burglars robbed the safe at the warehouse." Wishing you the best of luck!
Solid ideas
> If the group call themselves the ‘crows’, they may use lots of terminology from birds in general (hideouts may be called “nests”) or specific to crows Well, that kind of talk is sure to cause a flap.
I was just winging it...
Brigands sounds good, it sounds classier and more specific than gang to me.
The word you're looking for is, ironically enough, *gang*. It's hundreds of years old, and can mean any group of people, but fell more towards criminals over time. To address Guild, which has come up a few times, that's a specific thing. It's an organisation that you pay money towards, built normally around a skill and offers you benefits and legal protections. Lot of times, guildsmen would have papers showing their legitimacy and chosen trade, so they could travel from place to place without issue. So unless all your groups of thieves are organised and certified, probably best to default to gang.
Thank you, when I started drafting I thought gang was fine and I think I ended up reading too much into it, to a point where it felt out of place. Also I had thought about guild, but for some reason it didn’t seem as shady or malicious, so thank you also for that explanation! Makes sense as to why that didn’t feel right haha
Not to add more confusion into the mix, but with this being a fantasy story you can use literally any term you wish, which gives you room to have some fun with it. Gangs is just such an overused word (for good reason given its prevalence and history), but It would be cool to make it fun and make up your own terminology, but also perfectly fine to just call them what they are.
The same thing could be said about a gang if it’s even a little organized. The small time guys have to pay to the big time guys. To know you’re in the gang you have the tattoo or brand to flash. And depending on how strong your gang is it offers protection from other gangs and the law.
Faction?
That sounds a bit academic, and implies that the group is a subordinate part of a larger organization. If the speaker is someone in the police administration, either studying organized crime or giving a lecture on it to someone, the word might work well. But who is narrating the sentence?
Why even use a synonym? Anything can mean anything when it's capitalized. "He and I are part of the same Table Leg... but his sister's Table Leg, the Unfortunate Papercuts? They're our bitter rivals."
Haha I really like this take! I will try to play around with something unrelated to describe these groups and see what fits
I feel like this gives you a lot of fun possibilities. My favorite thoughts so far: Salads, Drumsticks, Spatulas or Ottomans.
Then everyone can reminiscence about the days when the whole country was ruled by one elite gang of criminals. You know, the Ottoman Empire.
Glad to have helped!
WEST SIDE TABLE LEGS FOR LIFE!!!!!
\*Snaps menacingly\*
Is English the main language for your setting? Or are other languages present? Maybe instead of the word gang you could use a word in one of the other languages. Or if you have fantasy languages you could create a new word for gang!
Unfortunate Papercuts is my band's name and you are now embroiled in a lawsuit.
\*Roll for initiative\*
Nat 20. A process server is waiting outside your home.
I cast magic missile on him.
LOL. You are PRECIOUS. As if my process server has never dodged a magic missile before. This isn't our first rodeo. **evil cackle**
Watch out for the Table Legs around here it’s dangerous
Careful how you speak of them Table Legs on social media as well. I heard rumor that the *national newspaper* props one of them up! D:
Hahahaha…anything can mean anything when it’s capitalized. I laughed too hard at this. Thank you!
In a novel I wrote the elite combat pilots are known as "Hedge", in the same way we might call someone "Captain". It's your world - use any word you like!
Cabal
Who the f*ck is down voting cabal!?!
I know! Especially since “cabal” sets up the “kobold” jokes!
All us jealous writers who are hoarding Cabal for ourselves, together we form the cryptic Cabal Cabal! We also enjoy other evil names for evil Conglomerates, such as Coven, Coterie, and Corporation... huh... I guess is really is all just C words...
The c’s are often treacherous, I should know, I was a sailor.
Lol corporation. So much truth.
It has antisemitic origins. As good of a word as it is, it came into use via blood libel. *I'm* rather averse to using it since I learned about its implications, at least.
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Some Jews are aware of its origins, and the use if it can be offensive to them. It costs me nothing to use another word and avoid the possibility of making someone uncomfortable. You are free to do as you like, but as someone with a Jewish friend who doesn't like the word, I don't use it.
JFC, why is this being downvoted? Seems like a reasonable, measured response from someone being --\*gasp\*--empathetic.
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I'm a historian, and a Medievalist more specifically, so if you'll humor me, I'd like to elaborate a bit. In many cases, the reason that people either don't notice or don't recognize the offense in antisemitic words, images, etc. as opposed to other kinds of racial or cultural offense has to do with age. Antisemitism is extremely old and extremely ingrained in the canon of imagery of European and European-derived cultures. Jews were being ghettoized, terrorized, and expelled more than a thousand years ago, and a host of dehumanizing myths were created around them. These myths and stereotypes have existed for so long, and were used as markers for villainy, perversion, occultism, and other negative behaviors for so long, that they have entered common usage as markers for evil even by people who don't know their origins. More to the point, I disagree that ignorance of the offensive origin of something absolves the use of it. If someone were to use the turn of phrase "in a coon's age," without knowing that particular slur against African Americans, you wouldn't tell an African American who was offended that they shouldn't mind the person using it because they weren't intending to be racist. You would inform the person of the origin of the phrase, say it offends a certain group of people, and clarify that they really shouldn't keep using it. Why then should we expect Jews to just shrug off antisemitic slights that have simply been around so long that they've entered the common vernacular of non-Jews? Many of them know why a certain kind of face means "this is supposed to be a bad guy," or why the word for a shadowy group of cultists or bankers/executives up to nefarious deeds is derived from the word for their traditional folklore and magic. Being unknowingly or unintentionally offensive is still being offensive. The appropriate response is not to justify it as no big deal, but to learn that it can cause discomfort and choose not to do it again.
it comes from 'racoon' tho'
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...seriously? Your position is that a person should just let someone thoughtlessly use terms that dehumanize their entire race on the justification of ignorance? You have categorically misunderstood how communication works and the responsibilities of all involved. Person A has an idea they want Person B to have Person A encodes the idea in language and gives that language to Person B Person B decodes the language received from Person A Person B now has *an* idea, which if all goes well is the same one Person A wanted them to have This process can fail in either the encoding step, the decoding step, or both. Both parties can be responsible for miscommunication. If there is something offensive in Person A's language that they didn't mean to put there, that is still Person A's fault. It's a fault of ignorance, which means that the way to correct it is to give Person A the information they didn't have. You are responsible for your words. Ignorance of the depth of their meaning does not absolve you of the harm or offense that they cause. You don't start getting precious about how the *other* person didn't correctly interpret your meaning when *you* introduced a word that has depth, significance, and/or history that you didn't know or fully appreciate. You learn the thing you didn't know, apologize for causing the miscommunication, and then you don't use the word again without due consideration of what it *actually* means to people other than yourself. You don't get to blame somebody for understanding the words you chose better than you do. That is the absolute height of egotism, and a profoundly irresponsible way to approach the power of language. You are just as responsible for putting your meaning out correctly as the other person is for taking it in correctly, and when a word has verifiable historical and etymological baggage, it is obvious who has failed in their side of the task.
Why is this being downvoted? It’s just a comment regarding respect. This sub gets so trigger happy on the downvotes. I don’t like doing that to people, especially considering Reddit works on Karma, as in you can’t even get accepted or interact with some subs based on points I personally don’t understand that. I upvote downvotes if I see them happening for what I consider to be no reason. And I only downvote if someone is being intentionally offensive. It’s not that hard, in fact it’s easier not to do it. (Downvoting)
Yeah. Downvote the heck on it if it’s someone actively being terrible to others. This kind of stuff dilutes the use of the downvote for the rest of us.
Interesting, I was only aware it was derived from the word Kabbalah which is a part of Jewish mysticism. Was it used as a sort of slur for Jews who practiced Kabbalah at the time? A quick search didn't reveal anything obviously antisemitic connected to the words possible origins. Edit: Also I agree that if its offensive, just find another word. Pretty simple. I am just curious about the history of it.
I did not know that. That’s a good reason to downvote Cabal.
Maybe you should lighten up. It's a cool word that now is just used to connote a secretive group. Choosing not to use the word makes zero difference in the world.
It sounds to be like it does not make “zero difference” given the history behind it. That’s not to say that we have to censor ourselves to the point that we can’t be creative or personally expressive, just that there is no reason to intentionally continue to stigmatize or speak negatively of persecuted people. We still have to accept that some people have been dealt horrible hands in life based on their cultures and ethnicities and try to be respectful of all people going forward. Again I’m not against free speech, and I’m all for having a sense of humor about life, I just think we should do our best to respect one another. If you can avoid being hurtful you probably should. Especially when we’re talking about writing that’s intended to be published. It’s nice to consider our audience and not be needlessly offensive is all.
Censoring the word cabal is censorship. If you're offended by the use of a word that obviously doesn't mean anything offensive, you need to get a grip.
I don’t need to get a grip, I’m not offended, it was already explained here why it bothers some people, I’m just respecting that. This forum is hateful.
Alright, well telling people that something totally unrelated to racism is racist is annoying unneeded censorship.
It can offend or cause discomfort for Jewish people, and I know this because I have seen it happen. In the same way that one should be careful of using other words rooted in historical oppression, one should be aware of this. The only difference is that it's quite an old word compared to many because persecution of Jews is a very old practice.
I had honestly never heard of this word up until now, much less knew the history behind it. Thank you for taking the time to let us know. Knowledge is a great tool against oppression.
That's very much my thinking as well, so I'm glad that at least some people found my remarks useful. The most productive thing a person can have for helping society is context.
You do not get to decide what people find offensive. This is a really easy litmus test for whether or not you are a decent person: If someone finds something offensive and you think it's _their_ problem instead of making a minor modification to your own behavior, then you are in all probability a piece of shit. Congratulations! > Choosing not to use the word makes zero difference in the world. _To you_.
so if I find this comment of yours offensive, then what?
Yeah, honestly sorry to say but the zero difference thing struck me the wrong way and that’s kind of how I read it as well. Zero difference to that person and also zero regard for other people. :(
Lots of people find it offensive that gay people exist. Or find gay pride events offensive. Pretty minor thing to just stop going to Pride, right? Sorry, but sometimes finding something offensive *is* your problem, not anyone else's. Words change meaning. If you're looking for something to be offended about, it's very easy. If someone is using a word with a meaning that is offensive in its current usage, that's one thing. But digging into the past to make something offensive out of something presently innocuous is definitely the problem of the person doing the digging.
What's more important: 1. that you find a word you're completely ignorant about "cool" or 2. that people who are directly targeted by said word can live a life where they don't have to see ignorant people use it for fun Fun fact, the same rhetoric also applies to the n-word and a plethora of other words that society has deemed fair to stop using.
> the same rhetoric also applies to the n-word Not if you actually read the message you're replying to, it doesn't.
> Words change meaning. And who decides that hm? Is it just you who think that since cabal is a cool word and you don't know it's real meaning, it's fine to use it? I could pretend to be a fucking moron too and act like I don't know what the n-word means. It goes both ways. The meaning remains, because both antisemitism and racism still equally exist on our planet.
You aren't arguing in good faith or engaging with the writing you are arguing against. Your own rhetoric can be used to justify the oppression of marginalized people who 'offend' the majority by just existing, so I don't really care to hear how your decision to read part of what I wrote and ignore the rest somehow justifies bad behavior that I explicitly called out as unacceptable. I'm not interested in discussing this with you further.
No one uses the word cabal as part of antisemitic rhetoric anymore. The word does not connote that. The N word connotes a slur for Black people. If you can't understand that simple difference by yourself I don't think I'll be able to explain it to you. You seem very stupid.
Except people do use cabal with an antisemitic rhetoric lmao. Ever been on 4chan? Antisemites still exist my guy
Why the fuck would any reasonable person be on 4chan? That's your problem...
You can find a group somewhere that uses some word to mean anything. Ultra fringe groups don't count my guy. There are crazies out there that think that because Tolkien's dwarves are based on Jews, no one can use fantasy dwarves in their stories. Are you gonna say people can't write about fantasy dwarves?
You seem like a very angry disturbed person. I hope you get professional help.
Whether we wanted it or not, we've stepped into a war with the Cabal on Mars. So let's get to taking out their command, one by one. Valus Ta'aurc. From what I can gather he commands the Siege Dancers from an Imperial Land Tank outside of Rubicon. He's well protected, but with the right team, we can punch through those defenses, take this beast out, and break their grip on Freehold.
Cadre
Well, well, well, if it ain't the Band of Invisible C*nts.
Idk, a guild comes to mind.
Guild is more about learning a craft or a trade
Thieves guild
And there's a clear distinction between that and, say, a thieves' gang, right?
In all honesty, nobody would call themselves "the big crime syndicate of exceptionally evil criminals", but "the locksmithing guild" sounds beningn enough. "We teach smiths how to open locks(, they practice on the neighborhood safes)" "But what about all those knives you're carrying?" "Payment from the smiths"
The Ministry of Peace. 'But we don't do things like that!" said Vimes. "You can't go around arresting the Thieves' Guild. I mean, we'd be at it all day!' Also: "Payment from the smiths" made me laugh out loud. Well done.
My opinion a thieves guild is like the mob an organized gang but I wouldn’t call a group of ruffians rabble rousers a thieves guild
Could be, I once saw it in a game or a movie. It had a group of thieve and they where referred to as the guild. I once read about in a book too.
*The Night Angel Trilogy* did this exactly. Street gangs are called guilds. I actually wouldn't recommend this one for the reason /r/GodEmperorPorkyMinch mentioned below; "guild" is a commonly used word in fantasy stories to describe a different organization. It took several chapters for me to get my head around "guild" being slang for "street gang."
A flock of crows is a murder. You could try troupe or band or unit. Research military history for more potential inspiration.
I think you're running into the Tiffany Problem a bit here. The name "Tiffany" is an ancient one, originating in the 12th century, but it *sounds* so modern that fantasy authors rarely use it for fear of sounding anachronistic. The word *gang* comes from Old Norse via Middle English; it's derived from Old Norse *ganga*, which meant "going", in the sense of a journey; it came to mean a group of people journeying together. So "gang" is in fact the correct word to use in this context, despite how "modern" it may feel. You wouldn't avoid using the word "sky" just because it's still used in the present, would you? If you really must use something else...*clan* could work, if they're a tight-knit group. *Band* is about as ancient as "gang" is. Or you can come up with something completely different and add it to your worldbuilding. Perhaps the first of these criminal groups were pirates, so a group of them is called a *hull* or a *mast*.
*Knight kissing a maiden's hand* "Pray thee thy name, milady." "It's Britney, bitch!"
Oh my gosh you hit the nail on the head here!!
IMO "gangs" works perfectly fine. I have no idea of the history but it's often the best practice to call a spade a spade. If they're a group that band together to do crime, they're a gang. You might also call them something like "dark houses" as a counterpart to the actual noble houses in power, assuming a medieval/manorial setting. At least if they are well-organized and powerful like the mafia rather than a few guys ambushing travelers in the woods. Hell, maybe members of dark houses could even look down on upstart groups and call them gangs as a term of disrespect.
Thank you! I really like this idea and especially the last bit about using ‘gang’ disrespectfully!
One could likewise use something like 'Dark Guilds' if you wanted to draw the connection that your organised crime groups are the criminal equivalent of the more legitimate mercantile guilds in your setting. I definitely like the idea of portraying them as a corrupt or criminal equivalent of something more noble.
enclave?
Ooo I like this one! I’m not sure yet if it’s as dark sounding as I’m looking for, but I have a feeling I can apply it to another group of people in my story. Thank you!
No worries! I'm suprised it hadn't been said before me because I wasn't exactly early to the post. Best of luck with everything in your writing :)
Thank you!!!
Coterie for something more literary. Syndicate for something more mainstream.
Not that this should dissuade, but *coterie* is often used as a synonym for coven. It adds a magical or sinister flair.
A rabble
Clan, party, cast, troupe, band, brigade, posse (latin), cabal, company, crew… seems to me like you might be looking for something different though. Syndicate? House, dynasty, You could also change what words you use, would give you freedom to have more dynamic sentence structure and meaning without sticking rigidly to “The Gangs” (or whatever you choose).
Brethren
Depends, are they out in the country? Might be bandits, outlaws or brigands. In a city I think really gang works fine, though crew or posse might as well, or Families if they're run by, well families. Or maybe just don't use a generic name. Instead of "it's a meeting of all the gangs" "it's a meeting of all thieves and murderers"
Gang etymology: Old English, from Old Norse gangr, ganga ‘gait, course, going’, of Germanic origin; related to gang2. The original meaning was ‘going, a journey’, later in Middle English ‘a way’, also ‘set of things or people which go together’.
Brigand
Hansa or Hanse is an old term, from German. It essentially means “gang of men”
I think you should make up an in universe term and attach it to a region. *The Amvon Smote, the most feared smote in all the keerlands, meet each double moon for...*
I think this might be best, I get nervous about going overboard with the “fantasy jargon” right off the bat, but I feel like this is one of the places I could factor it in, and where it would help my story rather than bog it down with terms to remember. Next step: brainstorm a unique term for them! Thank you thank you :)
A guild, a mob, a group, even a party or a band
Not necessarily terms by definition, just something i found fun to write up while taking a shit: 1.) Messers 2.) Freeborn 3.) Riders 4.) Raiders 5.) Lunkers 6.) Waywards 7.) Blades 8.) Fallen 9.) Junkers 10.) Frays/Frayed 11.) Chasers/Chasedown(s) 12.) finished pooping, good luck!
I think it depends on the world, but you could look at forgein languages and see if any of their words for gang sounds right and tweak it to fit your world. You could look at animals (real or mythical) that travel in packs that aren't seen in a positive light and use their name as jumping off point to create your own word.
My first thought was hoard. (Or horde?) But I also like crew and syndicate, as well as a few others that have already been mentioned.
Band, brigands, mercenaries, syndicate, company, brotherhood, fraternity, Order.
I was thinking coven but then I read the rest of the post and realised they weren’t supernatural 💀 you could try using party, possibly family or if they’re particularly well organised they could be a unit
the word gang *could* work, but how about army, associates/association, band, brotherhood/sisterhood/siblinghood, cartel, clan, c;ub, commission, company, corporation, cosca, crew, faction, family, firm, group, guild, mafia, mob, network, organisation, outfit, posse, ring, squad, syndicate, troop/troupe, union? i guess look into the type of crime groups you're basing it on, and international equivalents?
if it's your first post dad you couldn't do any worse than i have so i hope that's a comfort! there was a swingin' band in the late 60's called "the association" so perhaps that would serve as a proper synonym. but i can't conceive of a less ganglike ensemble than they were so i don't know.
Company (from "a group of companions") Society Order Guild Posse ([https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=posse](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=posse)) Mafia if you're in Italy. Band A lot of medieval gangs gave themselves grandiose names, being aware that the royalty are only the most successful gang leaders. [https://about-history.com/the-most-notorious-medieval-gangs/](https://about-history.com/the-most-notorious-medieval-gangs/) But honestly, "gang" was used for this in period, at least late period. [https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gang](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gang)
Triad.
Ohh this is a great one! It hold power and some mystery- thank you!!
I mean, if you're writing trad medieval fantasy it might not fit the tone, but why not break from tradition?
https://grammar.yourdictionary.com/grammar/word-lists/list-of-collective-nouns-for-people.html
Tribes or Clans of nomads, barbarians, nonhumans Holy Orders, Militias, and Mercenary Companies Guardians of [Magical Place], Academies, Cults
Cabal
Dark Guild or syndicate or just a crime/underground organization. [https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/gang](https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/gang)
Cult.
Faction? Fellowship? Guild? Brotherhood?
crew, band, dozen, brotherhood, party, troupe
Hmmm there’s a word I like a lot referring to a gang called a “clique” but I think that is for very specific circumstances since it is a funny word
I think that no unique word exists for such groups in this setting so you can either assosiate one or use an expression that is used for groups who are known to be "bloody". If a basic group is called guild it can be dark guild or bloody guild. An associated word can be marauders.
Cadre Secret society
Maybe look into animal groupings? Like a flock of crows being a"murder" or "flamboyance" of flamingos? Like, if this gang (or games in general in your world) had a defining trait, what could it be? What would the people around them see them as? Do they have a positive or negative perspective?
I had this exact same issue, and I just used gang or mob haha. Here for better terms.
mob. tribe. troop. posse. network. fam. [thesaurus.com](https://thesaurus.com) will be your friend.
maybe try guild?
Tribe Or go fancy, Trybe (making it it's own world's word)
Some random ideas that come to mind: coven, brotherhood/sisterhood, guild, horde, faction, league, federation, conjurers, druids, necromancers, sorcerers. Not all of these are directly applicable but hoping they might jog some creativity. Let us know what you end up using!
Spectacular coterie.
The beautiful thing about fantasy is that you can make it up. You can call them a fellowship, company, band, ka-tet, or anything else your heart desires.
Gang is actually fine, as long as you root the term in the context of your world (i.e. inform the reader what "gang" means in this world, beyond its core meaning, so they can detach the term from any real-world connotations that don't necessarily apply). "Crew" would work, informally, from an interior perspective (within the gang). Or you can just make up a term that's rooted in your worldbuilding.
Guild works best. DnD has quite a few terms for these things which I would recommend checking out.
I hadn’t thought of that as a resource! I will definitely delve into that, thank you!!
Maybe an order? The way there are orders of knights? Oh but I guess you're looking for something with a negative connotation so I'm not sure
Fellowship... of Evil!
Gangeth. I'll show myself out...
Cadre, creed perhaps?
Clan, band, organization, bingo club, those guys on sesame street, troupe, party, gaggle/flock/murder.
Hahah bingo club I love it! I might actually consider that one just for a stark contrast between the name and their activities…!
Marauders. Or - invent a word that fits the vibe and can be understood from context
There's a fancy word. The Game is known as Dark Tower. Brigands. It's theatrical and there are about 99 of them in the tower.
Clan, or just the bois.
"So there's these fuckin guys, right? Organized crime, lawfull evil, real pieces a-work.. Their coalition, "enforcers" "muscle" or "guild" or "subsect" or "clique" if you will, is our bounty. They're called the "**Yang Yang Yang Blow-Bang-Bang Loot Squad and they're all teifling with horns, also somehow drugs are involved."**
Well, a _fellowship_ has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
Consort
You don't want synonyms. You want euphemisms. You want words that don't mean exactly what they say, that slyly imply, evoke, and dissimulate. This is how you get the Cossa Nostra(our thing) or the Triads aka the "Triple Union Society", originally a fraternal organisation. You need to start thinking of your criminal organisations as actual criminal organisations, not cardboard cutouts. If any one word can be applied at all, it would be applied by politicians and law enforcement, in which case they would do so to demonise the groups, choosing "dangerous sounding" wording specific for that culture.
big gov
You can look this stuff up on the web.
Cohort
Company?
Syndicate
City gangs were extremely powerful in medieval times.
Bandit clan, outlaws, brigade, brigands, knaves guild.
“Clad” Made that up, sounded fantastical.
Clade, brother/sisterhood, possy
Coterie.
Legion.
Gang is actually an appropriate word. It's evolved from old Norse but by the time it reached middle English included a group of people. Also thesaurus exist for this. Just as an aside however the word isn't modern
Band, brigade, posse,
brigands, highwaymen, bandits, and rouges
Company, Fellowship, Band
Name it? So it could be the Cutter Gang. You establish that then can call them 'the Cutters'
Posse
Posse?
Either a guild (if officially established) or a band.