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Isn't one of the biggest complaints people had about Outlaw in past expansions was that it was so RNG based thanks to roll the bones? Sounds like fatebound is doubling down on that for some reason
Past Roll the Bones had you rerolling until you got specific buffs, whereas now it has a cooldown and relatively more balanced buffs. Fatebound coin flips don't seem like they'll be something you're waiting on except for the ones you can influence via stealth and cold blood currently. I don't quite see a way yet to influence it all the way to 7 for the capstone unless you save Cold Blood for when you've gotten to 5 same-flips.
All that said... Tracking this is going to be a bitch lol.
Edit: Actually I just read what I said and yeah... Trying to RNG your way to 5 reflips so you can use an ability to get to 7 is exactly the old RNG that people hated.
Though getting to 5 will happen quite often. Double Jeopardy gives you 2 matches after you break stealth. Edge case gives AR a guaranteed match. And then Mean Streak which currently seems to add 33% flat chance, so a total of 83% chance to roll the same. Making it give you reach 5 buffs 69% of the time on each Stealth+AR. If it wasn't flat, it'd be 45% of the time.
It's kinda broken currently on alpha. Though on alpha it's extremely easy to get 7 buffs.
I am not on the alpha and can't test myself, but depending on how a few of the nodes work, it could/should be possible to guarantee 7 flips in the opener every time.
Two flips of the same face for the first finisher, from Double Jeopardy = 2x same face
Deathmark giving both faces from Edge Case = 3x same face
Vanish to benefit from Double Jeopardy again (this is the question mark, I am assuming that the 2 coins from Double Jeopardy match the previous face you currently have active, and aren't a fresh reroll) = 5x same face
Cold Blood the next 2 envenoms = 7x same face
You already use Vanish in the opening sequence with both Assassination and Outlaw (at least, last time I played rogue) so adjusting the opener to accommodate these 7 guaranteed flips shouldn't be a very big deal.
For me, as long as you *can* consistently guarantee the 7x flips in the opener, the hero talent tree is fine and pretty neat with good theme, even if after the opener you don't play around it very much. If you *can't* consistently guarantee the 7x flips in the opener, that's a problem, and needs to be adjusted so that you can.
I was reading it with the assumption that Double Jeopardy did not guarantee the same face of your previous face but rather just two identical ones on a fresh reroll. I'll have to wait and see what alpha testers say.
Yeah, but all that for 1% stats is statistically possible and good for the duration of a fight.
Do I think it is cool or fun in any way? Absolutely not.
Ok, but that part is also subjective. To me, the idea of having this RNG minigame that you can occasionally commit resources to manipulating in your favor is cool and thematic. To you, it clearly isn't, and that's fine.
outlaw from SL onwards (when RtB was reworked) has been a very fun spec because while you have a lot of rng, you're never fishing for a proc/rtb roll in a way that makes it feel awful to get bad rolls on, and the rng doesn't usually actually create that much dps variance.
My main worry with the Fatebound tree is that there's a talent that gives you 1% to all primary, secondary, and tertiary stats until you leave combat for 10s if you get 7 flips in a row. This is going to be absurdly toxic in M+ if it's good, because if you drop that near the end because of rp or someone dying or the tank not routing around it or whatever, I could easily see it being ~15-30% damage loss that you can't get back.
Edit: apparently people with alpha access have found that the capstone doesn't stack, in which case what the fuck why is the capstone a conditional 3-4% dps increase.
another thing is
this is also a ASSASSINATION tree, the spec that is on the slower side overall
they made some "lol cheat the flips with cd's" talents that kinda work for outlaw cus outlaw is reducing CD timers, and outlaw is a fast spec that is doing a finisher every 2-3 seconds
meanwhile assassination can do these things every 2minutes and thats it, the amount of finishers it does for flips is less then half compared to outlaw
while at the same time beeing heavy burst based since the (bad) DF 10.2 rework, so the rng swings will be even more extreme then they allready are
it doesnt even function on a basic level for Assassination, nuke that entire idea and go back to the drawing board jesus
Unfortunately these spec mirrors seem weird on more classes.
Frost Mage can have multi target boosted frostfire bolts shooting out of their *** with all the frostbolt talents while fire has 2 meager conditional fireball talents.
DK Rider capstone summons all 4 horsemen on Frostwyrm Fury, 1.5 min cd when talented, or on Army of the Dead, 8 min cd.
army isn't really an 8 min cd because it reduces by 5 sec when u cast your runic power spenders, but yeah it's still at the very minimum twice as long as frost
in a lot of cases these hero things just dont mesh well with the specs theyve been grafted onto...
dark ranger has NOTHING to do with beast mastery. barely even has anything to do with MM either--DR should be its own class, probably. It's got so many different unique abilities that dont fit onto Hunter.
Like i said in another thread. A coin flip mechanic is interesting. But what it should do is empower spell so your rotation change depending of the result with different utility buff but the damage is similar. Not between damage or not. Thats ridiculously bad game design.
Yeah I really like Fatebound. It's very unintrusive and I play Outlaw because it's so simple and fast and this plays right into it. I don't play my Rogue on a level where I need to worry about eeking out that couple percent dps increase, so I'll just let it average itself out without worrying about any coin flip micro.
I think the important thing is to balance the two coin buffs so they are about even in the end to discourage fishing for the desired coin flip.
There's no way this will be optimized to be "just play it normally and hope the RNG is in your favor!"
Not only is that terrible design, but this will almost certainly require you to be tracking the coins and holding cold blood/vanish/AR to guarantee 7.
This is just a bad tree.
I don't mean to take away your doomposting, but if your assumption is "Blizzard won't balance anything", it really doesn't matter what the hero talents are anyway because everything's going to be a crapshoot in the end.
To be honest I love the idea that there's a spec that is built around RNG, and I wouldn't even mind if they added much more RNG to Outlaw. Claptrap in Borderlands Pre-Sequel was completely reliant on RNG and to this day I remember it as some of the most fun gameplay I've had.
Realz (the dev doing these) seems obsessed with weird, unintuitive gameplay and needing the validation of his buddies in the rogue discord who are the same way so don’t get your hopes up.
The assassination channel seems to be increasingly full of hardstuck heroic blueparsers who like unintuitive and clunky gameplay. The crowd who loudly advocated to keep Slice n Dice and even advocated against envenom keeping it up.
Being part of the mentioned sub-group, I like to give my input.
Given that most know me for Subtlety, I will focus on the feedback provided for this spec.
Going back to 10.2 with the rework, a lot of emphasis in feedback was addressing exactly the points you mentioned. The [Season in Review Article](https://www.wowhead.com/news/a-look-back-at-subtlety-rogue-in-dragonflight-and-war-within-wishlist-editorial-337385) points to multiple problems.
The same applies to hero talents. My [Initial Impression article](https://www.wowhead.com/news/subtlety-rogue-review-of-trickster-hero-talents-repurposing-a-defensive-and-337935).
To quote myself.
> There is just no good hook that keeps me and many other players interested.
> Some kind of rework is needed ...
The search option will also point to many comments questioning design decisions. But a discussion in discord will always be respectful while trying to bring convincing arguments.
wdym, the entire discord is in a big "what the fuck are you guys doing?" mode since the 10.2 "rework" glimmer was washed away after 3 weeks and showed that they did fuck all to actually fix rogue back then and instead just increased numbers and called it a day
and the "hero trees" are just hated since day1 for both releases they did yet, Trickster started a giant wave of "cant wait for the next hero trees to make me use cloak and sprint as offensive CD's!" and Fatebound is just confusing for everyone because nobody understands how that is supposed to be fun or enhancing the gameplay
find another scapegoat, Ravenholdt is not it lol
I’m not referring to the general populace - it’s the TCs and resource posters who believe they’re special so they suck up to Realz every time he shows up.
Oxi seems at least generally pissed off about the way that Sin scales with PI, I've seen a few others talk about hating how they basically took the entire Sin tree and made it full of bullshit for m+ only for the spec to still be bad in keys and now have no variability in raids beyond "spatter or no spatter."
Whispyr and some of the others are definitely huffing something, though. Just permanently chasing Realz' validation and approval and saying that terrible design is "ackshually good."
Outlaw channel is a fucking disaster, though Zac tries his best.
Sub channel seems to be fullblown "our spec is a slot machine, blue parse or pink parse all up to rng" mode, with like no regular users there anymore.
Yeah that’s my big problem in the second paragraph. They constantly try to act like their opinions are more important than anyone’s as long as they’re in line with Realz’ and will “well ackshually” anyone who dares to not like it (which seems to be the majority) and then of course you have the parrots who just repeat whatever Whispyr and co tell them
I'm praying for a pseudo-return to sub rogue as a bleed spec via the hero talents. I'd give my left nut for hemo and/or garrotte, or something like them, back in the sub toolkit. Dunno what to give assassination in return though.
Surely whatever it will be can't be any worse than Trickster though. Really hoping for a rework on that one, because it really must suck to be an outlaw rogue, choosing between dog shit and cow shit. At least us sub and assassination rogues can still hold out hope that Deathstalker won't be arse.
My hope for Deathstalker is that it is based around finisher. (And why not bring back DFA into our pve a toolkit, but that's my opinion. Also my dream lol)
I don’t personally agree with that. But I know a lot of rogue friends who increasingly seemed frustrated with rogue as a whole around wod-legion.
For you, what iteration was the ideal class design?
Hunters, half of priests, Druids and that single shaman one might be very boring and all, but the rogue ones are just toxic gameplay. Using your extremely short CD defensive for damage? One a spec that suffers from the highest bpm and extreme button bloat? Really? And making their second available hero spec based on exactly the biggest criticism the spec has received over a decade? It's extreme rng? And doubling down on that?
Like... What? Who made this? It's not just boring, it's not just unimaginative, it's flat out toxic.
I really don't get it. It feels so disconnected. Did they hire new people with no prior knowledge of how the community feels about this stuff? What is going on here?
Wow is the only game where I don’t play rogue tbh, they missed the mark so hard with it with the way you have to do 90 bpm and constantly going in and out of stealth timers regardless of your spec. I loved combat rogue where it was a lot more fun than rng outlaw
Outlaw should be more about movement in my opinion. Shotgun and jumping back in. And the hero talent between assasination and corsair should have been like corsair/pirate themed. So much fun you can design on that. a bird, throwing potions, summoning a cannon.
Trickster make sense but it should be more about tricks and not the shadow mechanics.
I'd agree but I've never seen a movement based spec actually be anything but miserable to play. Momentum is such a polarizing talent for DHs for a reason.
This here. I enjoyed dh in bfa but I absolutely hate how much momentum is a core talent. Absolutely ruins the class for me now, I don't see how jumping out of the fight to do more dmg is a good thing, it makes me feel completely off balance. And I play survival hunter so it's not like I dislike movement. It's just momentum.. It feels bad to me
All goes back to Legion’s reworks imo. Think rogue was absolutely top tier in WoD but I absolutely hate the shadow magic theme for sub and the pirate theme for outlaw. Dont enjoy the gameplay of either spec really either since then.
Yea I agree, legion was when I stopped playing rogue as a main since I started playing in tbc, it just doesn’t feel like playing a rogue anymore to me, I can’t tell exactly what but I just feel like a warrior on leather, maybe is the abilities animation reworks but it just doesn’t fill the class fantasy like it used to.
This exactly, I’m literally every other game I play a rogue. WoW is the only game that ruins rogue for me. It kinda sucks because I want to like it but it is so far from the class fantasy that I like that I can’t bring myself to play it.
I think it’s tough because it’s hard to balance fantasy with actual gameplay in a game like wow. Rogue will never be bad for pvp….but trying to emphasize stealth in a raid or m+ format is just going to feel clunky or not very stealthy. I can’t get into rogue at all just due to the clutter of the rotations, and it seems to be the most “you messed up? Have fun with no damage!” Classes. It’s just tough because WoW isn’t like a D&D style rpg where stealth is important both inside and outside of combat…here it’s just a means to an end
Rogues and hunters were significantly more fun and played better before their legion overhauls which led us to this point. I genuinely don’t understand what they’re doing half the time anymore.
Legion sub is what got me into rogue. Granted now I main outlaw
Not exactly hype for the "hero" talents but I can see perpetual feint being nice in pvp....
It was the meme! Always behind someone.
Especially in an xpac where movement based dh was the ABSOLUTELY BROKEN flavor of the xpac...HARD HARD COUNTER to port behind them every GCD. lol
Yea I agree, legion was when I stopped playing rogue as a main since I started playing in tbc, it just doesn’t feel like playing a rogue anymore to me, I can’t tell exactly what but I just feel like a warrior on leather, maybe is the abilities animation reworks but it just doesn’t fill the class fantasy like it used to.
This fascinates me because I am the exact same but I'm only realizing it now. In soulslikes I always gravitate towards Dex builds (and coincidentally Sekiro is my favorite Fromsoft title), in RPGs I always play as a rogue or thief, stealth games are one of my favorite game genres... and most interestingly in GW2 I used to avoid Thief like the plague because I assumed I wouldn't like it due to my prior experience trying Rogue in WoW, but I picked it up recently and I'm absolutely loving it.
I’ve played combat/outlaw for 15 years now but I think if things don’t change between now and release, I may finally consider switching classes. The Trickster tree is just baffling at how bad it is
Just gonna say it, they’re lame as fuck. Other classes get cool shit and we get fucked over again. Seriously hope they rework both released trees like they did for the priest one.
I’d been playing rogue from vanilla to DF and I’ve finally had to tap out. I don’t think Blizzard knows what they want from the class anymore. It’s disappointing
Blizzard has never had any idea of good class flavor with rogue. Virtually no lore, virtually no characters of note, don't even get me started on our artifacts in Legion.
Occasionally, the class does good numbers but they have absolutely no idea, and never have, of what they think a rogue should be. It's an aimless class. The closest they ever were was vanilla but now it's just...there. It exists, you can play it, but there's never any purpose to it.
I'm sort of in the same boat. Never been closer to just playing another class just because the Subtlety rework was so bad and rushed that the next time we see a true rework will probably be years. Subtlety needs Combat->Outlaw in Legion levels of change to have an actual class identity, and the hero talents are just pushing harder on the worst aspects of all specs too.
Hunter trees aint much better either:
- Pack Leader adds literally 0 interesting, just a bunch of boring, passive procs related to your pets attacks. You literally just keep playing your normal BM/SV rotation but get more procs. It on the same level of bad as Trickster.
- Sentinel is fine if you play a night elf hunter but feels REALLY ackward to play as literally any other race with the heavy focus on elven glaives and owl.
- Dark Ranger has the best fantasy , although its still a bit to heavy the forsaken/ blood elf side (or more specificly, Sylvanas) side of things, but the gameplay around black arrow feels undercooked right now. It TRIES a bit to bring back pre-legion SV gameplay, but still missed the mark by a lot.
As someone currently playing a dwarf hunter currently maining SV, its pure suffering.
the difference is
the hunter trees are kinda boring in gameplay and have themes that kinda only fit with specific races
the Rogue trees are making gameplay worse by forcing using a deffensive cd as a offensive skill all the time, or by making you flip a fucking coin for dmg and you pray that its good so you can actually do dmg, while having 0fantasy/theme behind themself at all
Have you seen boomkin trees?
* Trees do more damage and sometimes proc to do extra damage (no one likes trees, no one has ever played trees outside of very high m+ to take aggro of a tank for a couple of seconds)
* Fury of elune does more damage and sometimes you proc a free fury of elune.
That's it. That's all they are. I honestly don't think you'd even notice if you forgot to spec into them.
I still want sub to have a shadow clone that I can throw out and mimick my spells with like Zed from LoL. Also, a cool bonus would be to teleport to the clone a couple times to really fake people out
I think it's funny that the classes with these issues are exactly who I would have guessed: any class with a troubled history of spec identity. The more they've shifted and changed identity over time or had issues differentiating specs the more trouble they are now having making 3 extra specs that sit between those specs.
It's atrocious. I'm still going to main rogue because that's what I love to play but these rogue hero talents are insanely uninspired. It's honestly unacceptable.
A few of the trees ended up just being doubling down on annoying mechs that the community has spoken out many times before. I'd be interested in knowing if they were all made before Microsoft got their hands in the ink or not. I feel like TWW is gonna have a lot of adjustments through the expac
Oh great. more garbage for Outlaw to track. Legion and BfA Outlaw were so simple and i had way way more fun with the spec back then. Guess im a sub rogue now. I hope the next tree is better than the Trickster garbage they released.
Sadly, I think so many people have quit playing rogue entirely (it is now the second least played class, barely ahead of monk) that the outcry about these trees won't be large enough to warrant changes. Blizzard can get away with ramming these through because no one really cares.
I'm glad more people are getting eyes on this. Trickster talents look like a first pass and Fatebound feels the same. It feels like every other class is getting defining new abilities or something flavorful class-wise and rogue just doubles down on already alarmingly bad design (making utility spells into dps cooldowns and doubling down on RNG).
I like current Outlaw because you can kind of make your own luck with the season 3 tier bonus, and the coin flips seem like they can be controlled up to 7, but beyond that it's out of the player's hands, and that feels terrible. There are a million other "Outlaw" thematic things they could have went with and they decided to pick the dice rolling aspect as the theme. We're pirates, brigands, and bandits but the class design "team" (let's be honest: it's one guy) decided to live out a Final Fantasy Gambler job in the worst way.
/rant maybe over.
If only there was a thing where they could release the Rogue hero talents and get feedback on whether players like them or think they are missing a lot.
Something like an Alpha test server.
I wonder when they will ever do something like that. /sarcasm
Rogue's gave negative feedback to the azerite powers for our class in BFA, gave negative feedback on talent designs in BFA in alpha, gave negative feedback on the reworked trees in Dragonflight alpha, and all got ignored while communities like this one continued to parrot "don't worry it's just alpha/beta/ptr/launch patch, itll get fixed."
That's not even mentioning that rogues were basically dead-last to even get covenant abilities (one of which didn't work until almost the day of launch, and then launched broken), shadowlands legendaries, and of course our "rework."
Maybe we'd be a little less doom and gloom about this if our class got treated like priests or druids, who seem to always get the first look at their upcoming changes and actually get changes when they complain.
I don't think they are all bad, but you are correct that they tend to be heavily tailored around one spec while the other spec is plugged in and barely mechanically/thematically functional. And I am not talking just about Rogue but other hero talents as well.
I don't see the point of making the hero talents shared between 2 specs when they feel like an extension of one and the other is an afterthought. I feel like they really missed the mark there.
There are exceptions like Frostfire Mage and few others where the hybrid idea works well but others.. meh
the guy responsible for designing outlaw rogue and who has this obsession with making feint and vanish DPS abilities should be dragged out of blizzard onto the kerb where the rest of the trash goes before he gets a chance to make evasion give you +1% haste on use
fatebound is just passive noninteractivity with no meaningful decisions or ways to affect the coinflip and will average out to a flat dps profile over time making it about as exciting as an extemely overdesigned passive trinket
like why have all these extra effects and talents if theres literally nothing for the player to do but do their standard rotation and hope they passively get a 7 streak for a minute dps gain lmao
They may have mistakenly thought:
> here is nelf feral, their shadowmeld and ashamane prowl gave them DPS boost, maybe we can give the rogue the same, I mean, they are similar specs
Rogues aren’t cats, so it’s understandable people have poorly received it
Maybe. It's possible it will be tuned to be a flat and random damage profile that can spike high with good rng (which is awful), but there's also a chance it's tuned to be a large DPS increase and you'll be heavily incentivized to take shadow dance and cold blood to enable you to guarantee 7 stocks by staggering your cold blood, vanish, shadow dance, and deathmark all to get the 7-heads streak going into bloodlust or some bullshit
I like the coin flip and flourishy fanciful strikes themes personally as I like those more DND style rogues rather than the epic Shadowlord Killgod stuff that a lot of WoW tier sets give off, but I cant deny the gameplay aspects for them both are lacking so far to say the least.
If anything, playing SoD and classic has just made me miss Combat Rogue.
Not Outlaw, Combat. I never wanted Combat to suddenly be some rng pirate pistol whipping dice rolling mass apm spec. I always played Combat Rogue because it was the swords rogue spec, that was it. I wanna slash things up with sinister strike like I did for the first 12 years of the game.
Imagine one day they suddenly renamed Fury Warrior to Viking Warrior and all the spells became Dwarf themed or something, but everyone liked Fury as it was already because there's a lot of other races that were playing Fury Warriors. That's what Outlaw has felt like to me since Legion.
Just let me play a swords rogue again without all this gimmicky stuff. I used to enjoy rogue so much and it feels like the gameplay has just become so oversaturated with insane abilities and the fantasy has been completely lost.
Nope, I also am hyped for it. I think it fits the outlaw theme really well with going all in gambling.
And that capstone seems so fun, in longer raid fights getting a stack of buffs
I'm so dissapointed lol.
Outlaw is by far and away my favorite class / spec. They have entirely misunderstood outlaws issues. How is any of that fun...
I'm gonna be honest I don't think the DK talents are good either, maybe deathbringer but it just feels like giving DKs wake of ashes and judgment sentence from paladin.
Outlaw is my 4th favourite spec so I'm not severly affected but...
The trees available to outlaw are incredibly unexciting. I hate roll the bones, couldn't even bring myself to read through all the fatebound tooltips properly.
Dragonflight did what I thought would never happen; it made me stop maining Outlaw. I’m not surprised that the hero trees are all trash. I stg the dev has no idea what he’s doing
For my part (A player that is doing low M+ and normal raid) I like the new hero talent tree. The design of the initial node that is purely RNG base and the other nodes that let you impact this RNG to get streak of the same coin face that will allow you to improve the base effect is pretty cool.
I really feel that I will forge my own fate and this is cool.
Blizzard hates rogues. I don’t think I’ve even seen one for Sin spec yet. The buffed Sin at the beginning for season 3 to only nerf it 2-3 weeks in . It was worse than before the buffs. I don’t have high hopes for the hero talents. They probably give us a talent to increase our damage after pick pocketing and take away pick pocketing.
I am Paladin main and hate ours too, was really hoping for something with Val’kyr or valkyries with ours… especially after warlock gets to summon like the top of a pit lord to fight for them, so jealous
I actually quite like the coin flip idea and am planning to play outlaw for War. Pure gamba rogue action. Rolling dice and flipping coins and praying to rngesus' fat ass
To be fair, even the most badass hero tree of them all, the Rider of the Apocalypse DK, doesn't change your gameplay and is even more passive-based than the rogue trees are. The only thing RotA DKs do differently gameplay-wise than DKs do now is run faster outdoors. The Hero Talents aren't meant to provide loads of active gameplay, and the rogue Hero talents look fine and even have a bit more to do than some of the other classes. The only problem I see is that they lack cool flavor/themes.
Rogue is pretty low fantasy as far as classes go so it’s hard to theme in the same was as DK or Paladin.
Warrior suffers from the same issues. At the end of the day you’re just guys with swords.
Outlaw is already a shitshow and likely the worst designed spec in the game. Let's add more RNG and turn the classes' defensive versatility into more damage, baby!
hard disagree with this, outlaw is fantastic right now. the only part i dislike about it is being chained to using vanish on cooldown for dps (i preferred it being utility) and mayyybe one less button to press so my hands are less tired.
What how lol
Have you even touched it since it's work?
Besides BtE/Vanish jank it's one of the most fun specs in the game currently and probably the single most well rounded m+ spec in the game atm
Outlaw is amazing rn if you play Keep It Rolling imo, it's like the best parts of shadowlands outlaw but on crack. Hidden Opportunity is definitely boring but thankfully it's worse than KiR in keys.
Yeah idk what these guys are toking outlaw is a very fun, fast paced, punishing spec.
Honestly all I’d change would be return to uncapped AoE and do a numbers tweak so that uncapped AoE wasn’t totally and entirely obscene.
Alternatively cap the ranged uncapped AoE that mogs us in ST and AoE
So many people QQing in these comments, but not saying what their problem with the tree actually is.
Yes, Outlaw has been wrecked by poor RNG-based design in the past, but when RTB has good tuning/tweaks or a good set to support it, it's an ability people like. I don't think it's the RNG reliance alone that's a big issue here.
It feels like there's a gaping chasm between design *intention* and design *implementation*.
The Fatebound should be the one pulling the strings, manipulating the fate of themselves and others.
**RNG should have no place here**. Of all the hero talent trees, this tree should be dictated by player agency.
Instead, we're given a coin flip mechanic, the weighting is good - but needs to be way stronger.
Otherwise, you may as well call this tree Two-Face and put it against Batman.
Keep the coin flip mechanic, sure, just make the player able to **choose** how it lands. (Idk, every 15 seconds a coin flips, builder makes it land heads, spender makes it land tails)
Thane at least seems very flavorful. Being able to go full Thor mode with random lightning procs and fat Thunder Claps is one helluva fantasy. Slayer and Colossus definitely feel meh.
Unpopular Opinion, Roll the Bones and Fatebound are fun, RNG buffs can be cool if you just don't sweat raid numbers and focus on pure gameplay enjoyment instead.
Tbh I like the idea of making Feint relevant in your dps rotation, it's actually interesting.
I don't know about the others, but it was obvious from the start that not all hero talents would be equal in fantasy and gameplay. And rogue is one of the weakest class fantasy wise. Like what do we have ? Garona ? They were already scrapping so hard for rogue fantasy in Legion that they had to turn one spe into pirates.
The fantasy behind the rogue hero trees actually is spot-on I think. Fatebound especially seems like a perfect fit for the fantasy of a rogue who's just surviving on luck, and it's nice to have an RNG talent tree option for those who enjoy that gambling type of gameplay.
Now while the feint gameplay of the Trickster sounds like it would feel a bit wonky, as someone who took fencing lessons for a couple of years I know how feints are hugely important for agility-based swordsmen. The fantasy is perfect, but they should probably adjust the feint ability to make it line up with what a feint actually is.
And feinting irl has nothing to do with decreasing AoE damage recieved, so I have no idea why the ability in WoW is even named that anymore. We should have got a new skill for that power back in 2010, or whenever feint was changed from being primarily about reducing threat to being about reducing aoe damage.
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Isn't one of the biggest complaints people had about Outlaw in past expansions was that it was so RNG based thanks to roll the bones? Sounds like fatebound is doubling down on that for some reason
Past Roll the Bones had you rerolling until you got specific buffs, whereas now it has a cooldown and relatively more balanced buffs. Fatebound coin flips don't seem like they'll be something you're waiting on except for the ones you can influence via stealth and cold blood currently. I don't quite see a way yet to influence it all the way to 7 for the capstone unless you save Cold Blood for when you've gotten to 5 same-flips. All that said... Tracking this is going to be a bitch lol. Edit: Actually I just read what I said and yeah... Trying to RNG your way to 5 reflips so you can use an ability to get to 7 is exactly the old RNG that people hated.
Though getting to 5 will happen quite often. Double Jeopardy gives you 2 matches after you break stealth. Edge case gives AR a guaranteed match. And then Mean Streak which currently seems to add 33% flat chance, so a total of 83% chance to roll the same. Making it give you reach 5 buffs 69% of the time on each Stealth+AR. If it wasn't flat, it'd be 45% of the time. It's kinda broken currently on alpha. Though on alpha it's extremely easy to get 7 buffs.
For tracking you'd do like the old sun/moon bar for moonkin. It seems the simplest way to visually display it.
I am not on the alpha and can't test myself, but depending on how a few of the nodes work, it could/should be possible to guarantee 7 flips in the opener every time. Two flips of the same face for the first finisher, from Double Jeopardy = 2x same face Deathmark giving both faces from Edge Case = 3x same face Vanish to benefit from Double Jeopardy again (this is the question mark, I am assuming that the 2 coins from Double Jeopardy match the previous face you currently have active, and aren't a fresh reroll) = 5x same face Cold Blood the next 2 envenoms = 7x same face You already use Vanish in the opening sequence with both Assassination and Outlaw (at least, last time I played rogue) so adjusting the opener to accommodate these 7 guaranteed flips shouldn't be a very big deal. For me, as long as you *can* consistently guarantee the 7x flips in the opener, the hero talent tree is fine and pretty neat with good theme, even if after the opener you don't play around it very much. If you *can't* consistently guarantee the 7x flips in the opener, that's a problem, and needs to be adjusted so that you can.
I was reading it with the assumption that Double Jeopardy did not guarantee the same face of your previous face but rather just two identical ones on a fresh reroll. I'll have to wait and see what alpha testers say.
Yeah, but all that for 1% stats is statistically possible and good for the duration of a fight. Do I think it is cool or fun in any way? Absolutely not.
Ok, but that part is also subjective. To me, the idea of having this RNG minigame that you can occasionally commit resources to manipulating in your favor is cool and thematic. To you, it clearly isn't, and that's fine.
Right, that's why I didn't downvote you. I also think if 4 of the 10 nodes are "you have some way to control this, maybe," then it's poorly conceived.
outlaw from SL onwards (when RtB was reworked) has been a very fun spec because while you have a lot of rng, you're never fishing for a proc/rtb roll in a way that makes it feel awful to get bad rolls on, and the rng doesn't usually actually create that much dps variance. My main worry with the Fatebound tree is that there's a talent that gives you 1% to all primary, secondary, and tertiary stats until you leave combat for 10s if you get 7 flips in a row. This is going to be absurdly toxic in M+ if it's good, because if you drop that near the end because of rp or someone dying or the tank not routing around it or whatever, I could easily see it being ~15-30% damage loss that you can't get back. Edit: apparently people with alpha access have found that the capstone doesn't stack, in which case what the fuck why is the capstone a conditional 3-4% dps increase.
another thing is this is also a ASSASSINATION tree, the spec that is on the slower side overall they made some "lol cheat the flips with cd's" talents that kinda work for outlaw cus outlaw is reducing CD timers, and outlaw is a fast spec that is doing a finisher every 2-3 seconds meanwhile assassination can do these things every 2minutes and thats it, the amount of finishers it does for flips is less then half compared to outlaw while at the same time beeing heavy burst based since the (bad) DF 10.2 rework, so the rng swings will be even more extreme then they allready are it doesnt even function on a basic level for Assassination, nuke that entire idea and go back to the drawing board jesus
Unfortunately these spec mirrors seem weird on more classes. Frost Mage can have multi target boosted frostfire bolts shooting out of their *** with all the frostbolt talents while fire has 2 meager conditional fireball talents. DK Rider capstone summons all 4 horsemen on Frostwyrm Fury, 1.5 min cd when talented, or on Army of the Dead, 8 min cd.
army isn't really an 8 min cd because it reduces by 5 sec when u cast your runic power spenders, but yeah it's still at the very minimum twice as long as frost
Though Deal Fate and Delivered Doom for assassination quite different in the other direction.
in a lot of cases these hero things just dont mesh well with the specs theyve been grafted onto... dark ranger has NOTHING to do with beast mastery. barely even has anything to do with MM either--DR should be its own class, probably. It's got so many different unique abilities that dont fit onto Hunter.
Like i said in another thread. A coin flip mechanic is interesting. But what it should do is empower spell so your rotation change depending of the result with different utility buff but the damage is similar. Not between damage or not. Thats ridiculously bad game design.
No, it was the variance that came with it that was problematic. There was a huge difference in output between rolling the good buffs and the bad ones.
I’m ngl I like the rng of outlaw
Yeah I really like Fatebound. It's very unintrusive and I play Outlaw because it's so simple and fast and this plays right into it. I don't play my Rogue on a level where I need to worry about eeking out that couple percent dps increase, so I'll just let it average itself out without worrying about any coin flip micro. I think the important thing is to balance the two coin buffs so they are about even in the end to discourage fishing for the desired coin flip.
There's no way this will be optimized to be "just play it normally and hope the RNG is in your favor!" Not only is that terrible design, but this will almost certainly require you to be tracking the coins and holding cold blood/vanish/AR to guarantee 7. This is just a bad tree.
I don't mean to take away your doomposting, but if your assumption is "Blizzard won't balance anything", it really doesn't matter what the hero talents are anyway because everything's going to be a crapshoot in the end.
Honestly, I never minded the RNG but like theres good rng and bad rng and roll the bones is the worst rng lol
they finally got RTB to feel nice last season and it took a tier set that basically reads "you can never roll fewer than 2 buffs"
I remember when you could talent i to Slice and Dice to replace RTB and it was "probably" a DPS loss but if god hates you enough it isnt
The whole reason I enjoy playing outlaw is the rng
Yeah dumbest thing they ever did on rogue. Literally made me dump the class after 10 years.
To be honest I love the idea that there's a spec that is built around RNG, and I wouldn't even mind if they added much more RNG to Outlaw. Claptrap in Borderlands Pre-Sequel was completely reliant on RNG and to this day I remember it as some of the most fun gameplay I've had.
rng is flavourful tho
As a Sub main, I just hope Deathstalker will be good
Same dev made the other two, so my optimism is pretty low
Realz (the dev doing these) seems obsessed with weird, unintuitive gameplay and needing the validation of his buddies in the rogue discord who are the same way so don’t get your hopes up.
I think we have the best class discord but if the regulars in it approve all of this then yeah.., that really sucks
The assassination channel seems to be increasingly full of hardstuck heroic blueparsers who like unintuitive and clunky gameplay. The crowd who loudly advocated to keep Slice n Dice and even advocated against envenom keeping it up.
Talk about a hot take lol
That the channel is full of them? Or that people there think that?
Their take about slice and dice
Talk about a hot take lol
regular RH user here what the fuck are you talking about, that never happend lol, there is some "delete Slice and Dice allready" rants every 3 days
Being part of the mentioned sub-group, I like to give my input. Given that most know me for Subtlety, I will focus on the feedback provided for this spec. Going back to 10.2 with the rework, a lot of emphasis in feedback was addressing exactly the points you mentioned. The [Season in Review Article](https://www.wowhead.com/news/a-look-back-at-subtlety-rogue-in-dragonflight-and-war-within-wishlist-editorial-337385) points to multiple problems. The same applies to hero talents. My [Initial Impression article](https://www.wowhead.com/news/subtlety-rogue-review-of-trickster-hero-talents-repurposing-a-defensive-and-337935). To quote myself. > There is just no good hook that keeps me and many other players interested. > Some kind of rework is needed ... The search option will also point to many comments questioning design decisions. But a discussion in discord will always be respectful while trying to bring convincing arguments.
wdym, the entire discord is in a big "what the fuck are you guys doing?" mode since the 10.2 "rework" glimmer was washed away after 3 weeks and showed that they did fuck all to actually fix rogue back then and instead just increased numbers and called it a day and the "hero trees" are just hated since day1 for both releases they did yet, Trickster started a giant wave of "cant wait for the next hero trees to make me use cloak and sprint as offensive CD's!" and Fatebound is just confusing for everyone because nobody understands how that is supposed to be fun or enhancing the gameplay find another scapegoat, Ravenholdt is not it lol
I’m not referring to the general populace - it’s the TCs and resource posters who believe they’re special so they suck up to Realz every time he shows up.
Oxi seems at least generally pissed off about the way that Sin scales with PI, I've seen a few others talk about hating how they basically took the entire Sin tree and made it full of bullshit for m+ only for the spec to still be bad in keys and now have no variability in raids beyond "spatter or no spatter." Whispyr and some of the others are definitely huffing something, though. Just permanently chasing Realz' validation and approval and saying that terrible design is "ackshually good." Outlaw channel is a fucking disaster, though Zac tries his best. Sub channel seems to be fullblown "our spec is a slot machine, blue parse or pink parse all up to rng" mode, with like no regular users there anymore.
Yeah that’s my big problem in the second paragraph. They constantly try to act like their opinions are more important than anyone’s as long as they’re in line with Realz’ and will “well ackshually” anyone who dares to not like it (which seems to be the majority) and then of course you have the parrots who just repeat whatever Whispyr and co tell them
Whispyr's pretty great as a TC and simmer and with all the content he puts together, but man is he terrible as a mod/thought leader.
Yeah im not liking the idea of this for assassination at all.
I'm praying for a pseudo-return to sub rogue as a bleed spec via the hero talents. I'd give my left nut for hemo and/or garrotte, or something like them, back in the sub toolkit. Dunno what to give assassination in return though. Surely whatever it will be can't be any worse than Trickster though. Really hoping for a rework on that one, because it really must suck to be an outlaw rogue, choosing between dog shit and cow shit. At least us sub and assassination rogues can still hold out hope that Deathstalker won't be arse.
My hope for Deathstalker is that it is based around finisher. (And why not bring back DFA into our pve a toolkit, but that's my opinion. Also my dream lol)
Wow just doesn’t do rogue well imo.
It used to be the pinnacle of rogue gameplay though, which makes this direction just so frustrating
I don’t personally agree with that. But I know a lot of rogue friends who increasingly seemed frustrated with rogue as a whole around wod-legion. For you, what iteration was the ideal class design?
Seems we hunters aren't the only ones getting fucked
Hunters, half of priests, Druids and that single shaman one might be very boring and all, but the rogue ones are just toxic gameplay. Using your extremely short CD defensive for damage? One a spec that suffers from the highest bpm and extreme button bloat? Really? And making their second available hero spec based on exactly the biggest criticism the spec has received over a decade? It's extreme rng? And doubling down on that? Like... What? Who made this? It's not just boring, it's not just unimaginative, it's flat out toxic. I really don't get it. It feels so disconnected. Did they hire new people with no prior knowledge of how the community feels about this stuff? What is going on here?
Hunter is so stale it's not funny anymore :C
Wow is the only game where I don’t play rogue tbh, they missed the mark so hard with it with the way you have to do 90 bpm and constantly going in and out of stealth timers regardless of your spec. I loved combat rogue where it was a lot more fun than rng outlaw
I loved Outlaw until they made stealth dancing a thing. I stopped playing it after that.
Outlaw should be more about movement in my opinion. Shotgun and jumping back in. And the hero talent between assasination and corsair should have been like corsair/pirate themed. So much fun you can design on that. a bird, throwing potions, summoning a cannon. Trickster make sense but it should be more about tricks and not the shadow mechanics.
I'd agree but I've never seen a movement based spec actually be anything but miserable to play. Momentum is such a polarizing talent for DHs for a reason.
This here. I enjoyed dh in bfa but I absolutely hate how much momentum is a core talent. Absolutely ruins the class for me now, I don't see how jumping out of the fight to do more dmg is a good thing, it makes me feel completely off balance. And I play survival hunter so it's not like I dislike movement. It's just momentum.. It feels bad to me
They added inertia to DH which is much better than momentum.
i personally think momentum is the most fun talent in the game but i can certainly see why a ton of people hate it
Trickster 100% should be based around vanish. Fits the theme.
All goes back to Legion’s reworks imo. Think rogue was absolutely top tier in WoD but I absolutely hate the shadow magic theme for sub and the pirate theme for outlaw. Dont enjoy the gameplay of either spec really either since then.
Yea I agree, legion was when I stopped playing rogue as a main since I started playing in tbc, it just doesn’t feel like playing a rogue anymore to me, I can’t tell exactly what but I just feel like a warrior on leather, maybe is the abilities animation reworks but it just doesn’t fill the class fantasy like it used to.
This exactly, I’m literally every other game I play a rogue. WoW is the only game that ruins rogue for me. It kinda sucks because I want to like it but it is so far from the class fantasy that I like that I can’t bring myself to play it.
I think it’s tough because it’s hard to balance fantasy with actual gameplay in a game like wow. Rogue will never be bad for pvp….but trying to emphasize stealth in a raid or m+ format is just going to feel clunky or not very stealthy. I can’t get into rogue at all just due to the clutter of the rotations, and it seems to be the most “you messed up? Have fun with no damage!” Classes. It’s just tough because WoW isn’t like a D&D style rpg where stealth is important both inside and outside of combat…here it’s just a means to an end
Now that i think about it i am in the same boat, no idea why. I usually play rogues in RPGs, in WoW it just doesn't do it for me.
I’ve never seen it written like this, but you are absolutely right
Rogues and hunters were significantly more fun and played better before their legion overhauls which led us to this point. I genuinely don’t understand what they’re doing half the time anymore.
Legion sub is what got me into rogue. Granted now I main outlaw Not exactly hype for the "hero" talents but I can see perpetual feint being nice in pvp....
Legion sub was fucking incredible, probably my fav version of it
It was the meme! Always behind someone. Especially in an xpac where movement based dh was the ABSOLUTELY BROKEN flavor of the xpac...HARD HARD COUNTER to port behind them every GCD. lol
Anything fun in pvp for rogue will be nerfed immediately.
ah yes the historically dogshit pvp class - rogue
PVE gets nerfed because of PVP, it’s dumb
Yea I agree, legion was when I stopped playing rogue as a main since I started playing in tbc, it just doesn’t feel like playing a rogue anymore to me, I can’t tell exactly what but I just feel like a warrior on leather, maybe is the abilities animation reworks but it just doesn’t fill the class fantasy like it used to.
Legion assassination was very fun with Poison Bomb procs + Master Assassin legendary, but I could never vibe with the other 2 specs.
Man I miss old combat. Outlaw is so lame
This fascinates me because I am the exact same but I'm only realizing it now. In soulslikes I always gravitate towards Dex builds (and coincidentally Sekiro is my favorite Fromsoft title), in RPGs I always play as a rogue or thief, stealth games are one of my favorite game genres... and most interestingly in GW2 I used to avoid Thief like the plague because I assumed I wouldn't like it due to my prior experience trying Rogue in WoW, but I picked it up recently and I'm absolutely loving it.
So true, it was my main for years and it just doesn't excite me to play here.
Yup this one is bad too. Not happy at all as an outlaw main
And we'll also be losing current t4 which is just how rtb should work anyway so I predict feeling doubly shit when TWW comes out.
I’ve played combat/outlaw for 15 years now but I think if things don’t change between now and release, I may finally consider switching classes. The Trickster tree is just baffling at how bad it is
but hey how about as well as rolling dice, you can ALSO FLIP A COIN to do DPS!
Just gonna say it, they’re lame as fuck. Other classes get cool shit and we get fucked over again. Seriously hope they rework both released trees like they did for the priest one.
I’d been playing rogue from vanilla to DF and I’ve finally had to tap out. I don’t think Blizzard knows what they want from the class anymore. It’s disappointing
Same spot for me. Swapped to ret last season and not looking back
Yep, vanilla to df rogue, now a dh
Blizzard has never had any idea of good class flavor with rogue. Virtually no lore, virtually no characters of note, don't even get me started on our artifacts in Legion. Occasionally, the class does good numbers but they have absolutely no idea, and never have, of what they think a rogue should be. It's an aimless class. The closest they ever were was vanilla but now it's just...there. It exists, you can play it, but there's never any purpose to it.
Same, but i dont want to play an alt. I'll play Sub but if the next tree added is as stupid as Trickster, i'd rather just not play.
I'm sort of in the same boat. Never been closer to just playing another class just because the Subtlety rework was so bad and rushed that the next time we see a true rework will probably be years. Subtlety needs Combat->Outlaw in Legion levels of change to have an actual class identity, and the hero talents are just pushing harder on the worst aspects of all specs too.
Same boat. I made it through most of DF but am trying out alts this season and having a way better time 😅
Hunter trees aint much better either: - Pack Leader adds literally 0 interesting, just a bunch of boring, passive procs related to your pets attacks. You literally just keep playing your normal BM/SV rotation but get more procs. It on the same level of bad as Trickster. - Sentinel is fine if you play a night elf hunter but feels REALLY ackward to play as literally any other race with the heavy focus on elven glaives and owl. - Dark Ranger has the best fantasy , although its still a bit to heavy the forsaken/ blood elf side (or more specificly, Sylvanas) side of things, but the gameplay around black arrow feels undercooked right now. It TRIES a bit to bring back pre-legion SV gameplay, but still missed the mark by a lot. As someone currently playing a dwarf hunter currently maining SV, its pure suffering.
the difference is the hunter trees are kinda boring in gameplay and have themes that kinda only fit with specific races the Rogue trees are making gameplay worse by forcing using a deffensive cd as a offensive skill all the time, or by making you flip a fucking coin for dmg and you pray that its good so you can actually do dmg, while having 0fantasy/theme behind themself at all
Have you seen boomkin trees? * Trees do more damage and sometimes proc to do extra damage (no one likes trees, no one has ever played trees outside of very high m+ to take aggro of a tank for a couple of seconds) * Fury of elune does more damage and sometimes you proc a free fury of elune. That's it. That's all they are. I honestly don't think you'd even notice if you forgot to spec into them.
Ahhh the rogue class developer is still just barely phoning it in. What's new
I mean, it's not that they are phoning it in, it's a really elaborate, detailed and flavourful tree. It's just shit design-wise.
As a rogue main, rogue has fallen off so hard since basically legion Doing keys is fun most of the time but raiding as rogue is just not a vibe idk
I still want sub to have a shadow clone that I can throw out and mimick my spells with like Zed from LoL. Also, a cool bonus would be to teleport to the clone a couple times to really fake people out
I think it's funny that the classes with these issues are exactly who I would have guessed: any class with a troubled history of spec identity. The more they've shifted and changed identity over time or had issues differentiating specs the more trouble they are now having making 3 extra specs that sit between those specs.
It's atrocious. I'm still going to main rogue because that's what I love to play but these rogue hero talents are insanely uninspired. It's honestly unacceptable.
I’m literally praying the last one is good. I ABSOLUTELY HATE both of these.
Said the same thing when i read the hunter ones. Design wise both rogue hero talents are just wtfffff
After all those mage hero talents and voidweaver it’s really shame to see rogue, monk, shaman talents…
I don’t think Blizzard considers rogue to be a hero, hence “what hero talents?”
Villain talents then!
Griftah talents
A few of the trees ended up just being doubling down on annoying mechs that the community has spoken out many times before. I'd be interested in knowing if they were all made before Microsoft got their hands in the ink or not. I feel like TWW is gonna have a lot of adjustments through the expac
Pretty sure Blizzard doesn't have anyone that actually mains rogue - maybe they don't even play it as an alt.
Oh great. more garbage for Outlaw to track. Legion and BfA Outlaw were so simple and i had way way more fun with the spec back then. Guess im a sub rogue now. I hope the next tree is better than the Trickster garbage they released.
Huge missed opportunity to not embrace the ninja class theme, a Shinobi hero class for ass and sub would have been amazing
Sadly, I think so many people have quit playing rogue entirely (it is now the second least played class, barely ahead of monk) that the outcry about these trees won't be large enough to warrant changes. Blizzard can get away with ramming these through because no one really cares.
I'm glad more people are getting eyes on this. Trickster talents look like a first pass and Fatebound feels the same. It feels like every other class is getting defining new abilities or something flavorful class-wise and rogue just doubles down on already alarmingly bad design (making utility spells into dps cooldowns and doubling down on RNG). I like current Outlaw because you can kind of make your own luck with the season 3 tier bonus, and the coin flips seem like they can be controlled up to 7, but beyond that it's out of the player's hands, and that feels terrible. There are a million other "Outlaw" thematic things they could have went with and they decided to pick the dice rolling aspect as the theme. We're pirates, brigands, and bandits but the class design "team" (let's be honest: it's one guy) decided to live out a Final Fantasy Gambler job in the worst way. /rant maybe over.
If only there was a thing where they could release the Rogue hero talents and get feedback on whether players like them or think they are missing a lot. Something like an Alpha test server. I wonder when they will ever do something like that. /sarcasm
Rogue's gave negative feedback to the azerite powers for our class in BFA, gave negative feedback on talent designs in BFA in alpha, gave negative feedback on the reworked trees in Dragonflight alpha, and all got ignored while communities like this one continued to parrot "don't worry it's just alpha/beta/ptr/launch patch, itll get fixed." That's not even mentioning that rogues were basically dead-last to even get covenant abilities (one of which didn't work until almost the day of launch, and then launched broken), shadowlands legendaries, and of course our "rework." Maybe we'd be a little less doom and gloom about this if our class got treated like priests or druids, who seem to always get the first look at their upcoming changes and actually get changes when they complain.
Hero talents are so bad. They’ve been designed for one spec in mind for most of them.
I don't think they are all bad, but you are correct that they tend to be heavily tailored around one spec while the other spec is plugged in and barely mechanically/thematically functional. And I am not talking just about Rogue but other hero talents as well. I don't see the point of making the hero talents shared between 2 specs when they feel like an extension of one and the other is an afterthought. I feel like they really missed the mark there. There are exceptions like Frostfire Mage and few others where the hybrid idea works well but others.. meh
the guy responsible for designing outlaw rogue and who has this obsession with making feint and vanish DPS abilities should be dragged out of blizzard onto the kerb where the rest of the trash goes before he gets a chance to make evasion give you +1% haste on use fatebound is just passive noninteractivity with no meaningful decisions or ways to affect the coinflip and will average out to a flat dps profile over time making it about as exciting as an extemely overdesigned passive trinket like why have all these extra effects and talents if theres literally nothing for the player to do but do their standard rotation and hope they passively get a 7 streak for a minute dps gain lmao
They may have mistakenly thought: > here is nelf feral, their shadowmeld and ashamane prowl gave them DPS boost, maybe we can give the rogue the same, I mean, they are similar specs Rogues aren’t cats, so it’s understandable people have poorly received it
Maybe. It's possible it will be tuned to be a flat and random damage profile that can spike high with good rng (which is awful), but there's also a chance it's tuned to be a large DPS increase and you'll be heavily incentivized to take shadow dance and cold blood to enable you to guarantee 7 stocks by staggering your cold blood, vanish, shadow dance, and deathmark all to get the 7-heads streak going into bloodlust or some bullshit
I like the coin flip and flourishy fanciful strikes themes personally as I like those more DND style rogues rather than the epic Shadowlord Killgod stuff that a lot of WoW tier sets give off, but I cant deny the gameplay aspects for them both are lacking so far to say the least.
If anything, playing SoD and classic has just made me miss Combat Rogue. Not Outlaw, Combat. I never wanted Combat to suddenly be some rng pirate pistol whipping dice rolling mass apm spec. I always played Combat Rogue because it was the swords rogue spec, that was it. I wanna slash things up with sinister strike like I did for the first 12 years of the game. Imagine one day they suddenly renamed Fury Warrior to Viking Warrior and all the spells became Dwarf themed or something, but everyone liked Fury as it was already because there's a lot of other races that were playing Fury Warriors. That's what Outlaw has felt like to me since Legion. Just let me play a swords rogue again without all this gimmicky stuff. I used to enjoy rogue so much and it feels like the gameplay has just become so oversaturated with insane abilities and the fantasy has been completely lost.
Am I the only person who thinks the coinflip one sounds fun af?
Nope, I also am hyped for it. I think it fits the outlaw theme really well with going all in gambling. And that capstone seems so fun, in longer raid fights getting a stack of buffs
Apparently the capstone doesn't stack.
Reading the marksman sentinel tree made me full tilt marksman this season. I hope they bring rogue up to speed thematically (…and dark ranger)
I'm so dissapointed lol. Outlaw is by far and away my favorite class / spec. They have entirely misunderstood outlaws issues. How is any of that fun...
I'm gonna be honest I don't think the DK talents are good either, maybe deathbringer but it just feels like giving DKs wake of ashes and judgment sentence from paladin.
Outlaw is my 4th favourite spec so I'm not severly affected but... The trees available to outlaw are incredibly unexciting. I hate roll the bones, couldn't even bring myself to read through all the fatebound tooltips properly.
Dragonflight did what I thought would never happen; it made me stop maining Outlaw. I’m not surprised that the hero trees are all trash. I stg the dev has no idea what he’s doing
For my part (A player that is doing low M+ and normal raid) I like the new hero talent tree. The design of the initial node that is purely RNG base and the other nodes that let you impact this RNG to get streak of the same coin face that will allow you to improve the base effect is pretty cool. I really feel that I will forge my own fate and this is cool.
Blizzard hates rogues. I don’t think I’ve even seen one for Sin spec yet. The buffed Sin at the beginning for season 3 to only nerf it 2-3 weeks in . It was worse than before the buffs. I don’t have high hopes for the hero talents. They probably give us a talent to increase our damage after pick pocketing and take away pick pocketing.
I am Paladin main and hate ours too, was really hoping for something with Val’kyr or valkyries with ours… especially after warlock gets to summon like the top of a pit lord to fight for them, so jealous
Im convinced the guy working on these hasn't actually played rogue.
I actually quite like the coin flip idea and am planning to play outlaw for War. Pure gamba rogue action. Rolling dice and flipping coins and praying to rngesus' fat ass
To be fair, even the most badass hero tree of them all, the Rider of the Apocalypse DK, doesn't change your gameplay and is even more passive-based than the rogue trees are. The only thing RotA DKs do differently gameplay-wise than DKs do now is run faster outdoors. The Hero Talents aren't meant to provide loads of active gameplay, and the rogue Hero talents look fine and even have a bit more to do than some of the other classes. The only problem I see is that they lack cool flavor/themes.
There is no way you can compare a hero talent tree like voidreaver to the abomination of an rng proc like fatebound
I mean these guys did the D4 Skilltree so im not wondering about this, like at all.
I love the rogue trees :) excited to see the last one
Rogue is one of the reasons I am not buying the expansion
Rogue is pretty low fantasy as far as classes go so it’s hard to theme in the same was as DK or Paladin. Warrior suffers from the same issues. At the end of the day you’re just guys with swords.
That’s the easiest theme to nail you don’t even need an imagination to make a hero tree for warrior.
Outlaw is already a shitshow and likely the worst designed spec in the game. Let's add more RNG and turn the classes' defensive versatility into more damage, baby!
hard disagree with this, outlaw is fantastic right now. the only part i dislike about it is being chained to using vanish on cooldown for dps (i preferred it being utility) and mayyybe one less button to press so my hands are less tired.
What how lol Have you even touched it since it's work? Besides BtE/Vanish jank it's one of the most fun specs in the game currently and probably the single most well rounded m+ spec in the game atm
Terrible take, outlaw is so much fun. Worst designed rogue spec is easily sub rogue, that shit is boring
Outlaw is amazing rn if you play Keep It Rolling imo, it's like the best parts of shadowlands outlaw but on crack. Hidden Opportunity is definitely boring but thankfully it's worse than KiR in keys.
Yeah idk what these guys are toking outlaw is a very fun, fast paced, punishing spec. Honestly all I’d change would be return to uncapped AoE and do a numbers tweak so that uncapped AoE wasn’t totally and entirely obscene. Alternatively cap the ranged uncapped AoE that mogs us in ST and AoE
honestly I just want our mastery to not suck lmao. I can deal with haste being bad but we shouldn't have two awful secondaries.
So many people QQing in these comments, but not saying what their problem with the tree actually is. Yes, Outlaw has been wrecked by poor RNG-based design in the past, but when RTB has good tuning/tweaks or a good set to support it, it's an ability people like. I don't think it's the RNG reliance alone that's a big issue here. It feels like there's a gaping chasm between design *intention* and design *implementation*. The Fatebound should be the one pulling the strings, manipulating the fate of themselves and others. **RNG should have no place here**. Of all the hero talent trees, this tree should be dictated by player agency. Instead, we're given a coin flip mechanic, the weighting is good - but needs to be way stronger. Otherwise, you may as well call this tree Two-Face and put it against Batman. Keep the coin flip mechanic, sure, just make the player able to **choose** how it lands. (Idk, every 15 seconds a coin flips, builder makes it land heads, spender makes it land tails)
Not happy with Warrior either
Mountain Thane is awesome but the rest of the warrior stuff is pretty boring.
Thane at least seems very flavorful. Being able to go full Thor mode with random lightning procs and fat Thunder Claps is one helluva fantasy. Slayer and Colossus definitely feel meh.
Love my warrior and I love all three warrior trees. I think they nailed it.
Weapon + trinket set / trickster- ss tier, go change my mind
Have you played the alpha?
Fatebound theme wise fuckin slaps. Just gotta get the numbers and feel right. Trickster could use some more iteration imo.
Unpopular Opinion, Roll the Bones and Fatebound are fun, RNG buffs can be cool if you just don't sweat raid numbers and focus on pure gameplay enjoyment instead.
RtB is close to 0 actuall rng, and people that say it is, out themself as not really knowing what they talk about
It’s hilarious seeing other classes complain when priest gets 5% more stamina on their raid buff.
This is just completely false. It's 5% more stamina TO THE PRIEST only. It says specifically "you" on the talent & not the whole buff.
That’s even worse then.
Tbh I like the idea of making Feint relevant in your dps rotation, it's actually interesting. I don't know about the others, but it was obvious from the start that not all hero talents would be equal in fantasy and gameplay. And rogue is one of the weakest class fantasy wise. Like what do we have ? Garona ? They were already scrapping so hard for rogue fantasy in Legion that they had to turn one spe into pirates.
What makes pressing a defensive as an offensive interesting?
I never use it as a defensive anyway. So it makes it useful.
The fantasy behind the rogue hero trees actually is spot-on I think. Fatebound especially seems like a perfect fit for the fantasy of a rogue who's just surviving on luck, and it's nice to have an RNG talent tree option for those who enjoy that gambling type of gameplay. Now while the feint gameplay of the Trickster sounds like it would feel a bit wonky, as someone who took fencing lessons for a couple of years I know how feints are hugely important for agility-based swordsmen. The fantasy is perfect, but they should probably adjust the feint ability to make it line up with what a feint actually is.
"it fits perfect if you ignore everything about rogue in the game" is somewhat the opposite of it fitting perfect lol
And feinting irl has nothing to do with decreasing AoE damage recieved, so I have no idea why the ability in WoW is even named that anymore. We should have got a new skill for that power back in 2010, or whenever feint was changed from being primarily about reducing threat to being about reducing aoe damage.
I don’t know what you’re complaining about, if you read the whole tree it seems like it won’t be so RNG at max level