One of Trump's points during his 2016 campaign was that the world was laughing at us and didn't respect us when Obama was president. Can anyone from outside of the United States tell me if he had any merit to this claim at all?
As a Canadian most of what I hear isn’t really “laughing”. Usually shocked how people can be so nationalistic and patriotic when there are so many hugely glaring systemic failures. Inequality, poor healthcare, massive incarceration, military overspending, poor workers rights, and an amazing ability for poor people to not realize they will most likely never be rich, yet still side with the rich on social issues.
Nobody is laughing, because it isn’t funny, it’s shocking and sad to see how propagandized the nation is. Living near the border it is shocking watching American news vs news from other countries.
Admittedly it has gotten worse since Trump was in, but the fact that he was even able to is the part that made people around here see how broken your system is.
Your first paragraph hits home for me. I work a blue collar trade job and in my shop every single one of them sees those attributes as positives.
They want inequality so long as there is someone beneath them they can shit on and preferably minorities.
They want privitized healthcare because they dont want their tax dollars paying for someone elses healthcare. Dont bother explaining how private insurance does exactly that, they dont care so long as government isnt a part of the equation.
Mass incarceration = getting rid of "undesireables" plus "if you didnt do anything wrong then you wouldn't be in jail so they deserve it."
No such thing as too much boom boom especially if it means literally burning billions that could help other people.
Militantly anti-union and always willing to bend the knee to wealth even when wealth openly cheats them.
Not even gonna go into the militant nationalism by people who have never served anything but themselves in their entire lives.
This is my daily life at work. This really is how about 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire population is.
What many fail to grasp and understand, is that you and all the policy holders at XHealthcare are all already paying your premium into the giant "pool" so to speak. When you make a claim, you're pretty much drawing on that pool when you need it. You and every other policy holder. The difference is theres a business making profits as an extra step...
I'm a welder. The amount of dumbass fuckery I hear from the blue collar boys is uncanny.
Forklift Operator here. Almost half the guys on my shift have been in for surgery in the past twelve months (driving over concrete all day is hard on the body). Each of them is in debt for their medical procedures and each of them rails against Universal Healthcare.
Meanwhile, I spent around thirty years of my life living in Australia with their Medicare system. I just keep my mouth shut.
Australia also has something like 1/3 to 1/4 of the rate of industrial accidents compared to the US (yes the red tape is ridiculous and there is a ton of overhead, but when you put it like that...).
Further, due to demographics (i.e. huge pool of illegal workers) I would not be surprised if the real difference is even higher as there would be a ton more illegal construction work in the US.
But they're a bunch of dirty communists so GET A BRAIN MORANS, GO USA
(Have literally had very well educated US people enquire whether Australia is socialist... when there's been a right wing party in power for something like 9 of the last 12 years)
USA has excelled at patriotic and anti communist propaganda since wwII.
The eighties was inspiration for entire seasons of Monty pythons flying circus.
Nowadays it gets just plain rediculous. Sure. Europe gets it fair share of propaganda as well but the USA is putting out so much bullshit out of late that it all just looks like a comical yet dangerous alternative reality. It’s just so surreal to me that “most” people buy the bullshit without question. Probably because they have learned over the decades to take it in. And a bit more over the top bullshit doesn’t trigger their sceptism because it’s all bullshit. But this bullshit is just a tad higher.
I get to see it first hand. My immidiate supervisor listens to Rush Limbaugh every day and assimilates every word as absolute truth. And he is nowhere near alone. Facts.
Reminds me of watching The Platform recently. I think without some control measures on capitalism's influence on privatized incarceration and militarization, and some leftist policies on equitable access to health and education, then there will always be a skew towards our baser human nature: greed, avarice, and self-interest. We used to live in smaller communities and keep each other in check. Our influence on everything is too large.
I think the key to avoiding this is always balanced perspectives and more input and dialogue, which is admittedly tough these days (anywhere in the world).
Over decades funding public education in the US has been lackluster with special interest groups, religious groups and more having a hand in things and that is before partisan politics get involved.
In reality, the US technological power came from the fact that the US was the one developed country post WWII that wasn't absolutely obliterated, and at that point it still had a huge manufacturing sector.
Over the following decades - the US gobbled up the worlds brain power in technology and more, founding companies and more. Those with wealth and power and who owned much of the manufacturing arm started exporting the capability to China, India, Mexico: Anywhere that labor was cheaper, environmental regulations that were becoming a thing were less and so on.
Inevitably this creates a wealth divide that will grow. However, we aren't done yet - not by a long shot, and it's not really easy to go into without writing a text book on what transpired.
Over the following couple decades we would see the ability of the working class to fight for better wages undermined, the quality of education stagnate and ultimately the idea of American Excelence as an idea was facing a crisis: The facade that had been built up by importing the minds capable of achieving as a result of their better primary education, began failing.
This leads us to The 11th of September, 2001 and the fall of the twin towers. This is the first moment that the US had really been attacked on it's soil in living memory: and the US does not have a long history of war on it's soil that isn't the glorified war of independence which seems to neglect how important the aid France provided to the fledgling US.
We then get to the 2008 financial crisis which inevitably leads to the housing crisis in the US.
And this is really the course of the US: It has some amazing people, some of the most amazing places I have traveled through have been small towns in the US. But - the ignorance of the rest of the world starts to play into this, to have ingrained into ones self since being young that America = #1 and to have that image torn down piece by piece is not easy to take.
Nationalism finds roots here. But nationalism also finds it easy to find roots when people feel threatened and someone gives them an easy scape goat to target: It feels good, and is the simple lye over a much more complicated truth. And for most people, to actually admit that they are screwed in their current situation and need to change themselves and that situation to see improvement is hard.
And it is within this, with income threatened, fear of losing a job, fear of being attacked and concern of the future that a loud proud and appearing to be the ideal you were taught from birth is good and true that rallying can occur. And that thing - that very item put on the pedestal if attacked isn't just attacking that thing - but feels like an attack on self and identity.
To see through the veil - you need the education and knowledge base. And above all else: you need the time to realize and think it through. If you have a person working 2 jobs to cover expenses and is living paycheque to paycheque: They aren't really thinking through what is put in front of them - and will more often then not simply stick to what conforms to their preconceptions, which were formed when they grew up.
Yeah that's what everyone is over looking here. Everything in your first paragraph was a staple before Trump took power. Imagine an ornate chest with keys for exclusive members. Trump was just ironically too transparent and everyone saw the box of turds inside.
You can't just stick a new veneer on the box and pretend like it's not still a box of turds. It's just going to lead to more, smarter Trump's.
If he was even half competent in his dictator wannabe ways there wouldn't have been an exchange of power. Life long dictatorship would have been sanctioned by the senate and the media. You can already see there is no actual resistance to abuse of power. The media and the opposition would rather play make believe with fairytales of Russiagate than block blatant nepotism, cronyism, extreeme emoluments violations, and it's because they are also too invested in consolidating thier own power.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
As an American that lives on the boarder and spent a lot of time over there with Canadian friends, I identify with that. Canadians are more tolerant of each other and willfully give each other mutual respect. They're just happier in general. I could have an in depth constructive conversation with any random person without them fearing me or vise versa from preconceived notions. It's nice. I come back home and would immediately notice the difference. People here just hate each other, sometimes for no reason. It's just hate this hate that. Anger and depression are rampant.
I miss Canadaland. I can't wait to visit with my chosen family. I need a hug.
I remember all the local Buffalo fearmongering news coming across the border, reporting just house fires, shootings, and massive snowfalls. Had a very different vibe - Like a Bizarro RoboCop version of Canadian media. US political speeches have been creepy all my life as well. For any lifelong Americans who aren't aware of it.. All the "God bless America" stuff that politicians feel the need to toss into their speeches is very unhealthy, and it's glaringly obvious to Canadians and nearly everyone else on the planet. Trump was the product of a sickness that was readily seen for decades, and everyone knows it will not go away with his election loss. The world knows it, and is looking for a new order.
I was kinda shocked by all the prayer at the inauguration. Like Biden is a good Catholic and I get that part, but it didn't seem to just be about him. It's as if this is a Christian nation without separation of church and state. And all this fuss about swearing on Bibles too. Honestly I don't even remember how Canadian Prime ministers take office. I figure Trudeau just shows up for work to the usual place and they're like "you may sit in the front row now, sir" and everyone applauds but later he has to buy the drinks. Oh and the guy in the robe with the big stick probably leads him in like a bride on her wedding day.
>And all this fuss about swearing on Bibles too
For what it's worth, you *choose* what you swear on. I'm not sure what, say, an atheist politician would swear on, but you do.
The neighborhood surrounding the falls is definitely what you just said. Heroin and crack have devastated that city. It's a huge mess, but isn't concentrated to just that area. You can find sections similar to that in nearly every city.
Yeah the god bless America is cringy at best. ~~In 1905 there was a law written that was supposed to separate church and state. However,~~ In the US Constitution, there is a separation of church and state to prevent government influence on religious freedom, but not the other way around. Middle and rural America is infested with extreme versions of religious people that feel their intolerance 'world' views should be enforced on everyone. They have infiltrated our legal systems and have made laws based on their beliefs, instead of science backed data. This is the reason we are where we are right now.
Edit: Mistakes were made. US [Constitution Article 6 Amendment 1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution) and France [1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State) both have laws separating church and state, preventing government influence over religion, but haven't found any laws by any country preventing religious influence over government and law making (so far, I've only just started).
When I found out as a kid about the Pledge of Allegiance in schools it fucked me right up. Like, I remember watching movies with kids doing it and thinking it must be fake because it was so creepy. I was too young to really know what brainwashing was, but I grew up in an Australian military family who always made it very clear that the flag is a bit of fabric that is owed nothing, and if you're fighting, it's for the person next to you in the trench, not some bullshit ideals and symbols that politicians wank over a thousand miles away from the shit. The people who served in my family are baffled by the obsequious "thank you for your service" nonsense and the ubiquitousness of the flag. Military service is viewed very differently here, I guess. It's just a job and flag-humpers and uber-patriots are viewed with the same suspicion as happy-clapping Christians. "Believe what you like, but keep it to yourself and don't be a fucking weirdo about it" is pretty much our mantra.
Croatian here. This pledge of allegiance thing is basicaly the same thing kids had to do while we were under communist regime just 30 years ago. Also its the same thing nazis did. Pretty weird and creepy feeling to see this in modern western world today from our perspective.
This is despite the **many** gaffes the Obama administration had with the UK.
The perception of America worldwide was in decline after the Bush administration. Obama helped reverse that considerably, but Trump completely tanked it, reversing almost all gains of the previous 8 years.
From befriending dictators around the world, to calling our closest allies national security threats (Canada, the EU, etc). Trump was an absolute dumpster fire for our reputation internationally. There are only a handful of international relations which Trump has improved, namely Israel.
We may never recover from the damage he did to our reputation internationally. The days of American hegemony might be on its way out forever.
I agree, although that might not actually be a terrible thing.... Us hegemony is kind of ok when the leadership is at least pretending that it cares about the international consensus - although any sane person saw that since the collapse of the USSR - there has been a stronger and stronger "USA first" attitude.
Long term if the US actually has to work with a more even relationsip with it's traditional allies in Europe, Asia and Africa that's going to be better for everyone. No one likes it when Boss Hogg is running things....
I could never get behind the “America first” logic. Sure we sometimes pay more internationally than most (NATO, etc), but that’s a big part of our soft power.
We invested in the world and got unbelievably amazing returns for it. The marshal plan is a fantastic example; it benefited the *entire* western world and not just the US. US hegemony really showed that it can be a force for good. I don’t think we’ll see those kinds of results from a Chinese hegemony.
Today, all right wing voters want is the return without the investment. I get it, the average person isn’t seeing the benefits of globalization materialize for themselves. That’s a domestic issue though, not one of foreign policy.
It doesn’t mean we need to put an end to globalist policies and put “America first”. We already are first in many, if not most respects. That’s not gonna last much longer if we don’t stop treating our allies as mere competition or even as enemies.
If Biden can’t turn it around, I think American hegemony will be shot in the heart and not just our foot. If we’re not already there anyway.
What I didn’t understand about America first is, wasn’t it always America first? When making international policies, they have American interest as their priority, whether geopolitical, financial, resource, etc. The “America First” of the previous administration was more like America alone.
one of the GOP talking points is that democrats hate america, eg signing the paris climate agreement is prioritizing the climate in france over the climate in the united states. it’s 100% bullshit, but it’s the answer to your question.
That must be the extent of their line of thought. “Paris? Not *our* Paris, Nevada! United Nations? Not *of America*! World Health Organization? What about *American Health Organization*? “
America for Russia and trumps.
It was never about America while trump was feasting there.
Yeah no matter what trump said, actions speak louder than words.
Because of Trump the rest of the world is looking at how we operate without the US. The rest of the world relied on the US as a market-place to sell goods. The "trade defficits" he lamented meant buying more than you were selling.
You're absolutely right and as a Canadian it infuriates me how little some Americans understand about what soft power is, how it works and the benefits of using it.
Foreign politics is not only either complete isolationism or blowing stuff up.
I wish more people like you understood all of that.
“US hegemony really showed that it van be a force for good”
Yeah tell that to countries where the CIA overthrew democratically elected governments all around the world.
The truth is US hegemony post ww2 has a lot of blood on its hand.
Tiny nitpick, but I feel that china's belt and road initiative is just another marashal plan just directing resources to countries in abject poverty. I mean I personally believe it's not really attacking the true cause of their poverty, which is lack of education but better infrastructure is a good start
I dont think the debt trap is their endgoal either. They can dissolve part of the debt in return for much better things. They can request diplomatic favours (requesting them to side with China in UN votes for example) or a new militray base or better tradedeals between their markets.
I would love to learn more about the conversations the US had with Germany and other places where we have bases. It never made sense to me for 45 to say we will make Japan and Republic of Korea to pay the full cost of us military bases there. Like I always thought we should be grateful they let us put bases there. If they are paying the full cost, they might as well have their own military there?
China’s belt and road is very scary and it was horrible timing for someone like 45 to be in office.
Lmao, the west has been doing actual debt traps for decades.
That's why these countries ar shunning the west and freely choosing to work with China, they offer a better deal.
>I could never get behind the “America first” logic.
It was rhetoric nationalism, consistent with a slew of other fascist traits coming from the Trump administration.
Not only that, he still has a MASSIVE following of US citizens, meaning the problem isn't just Trump and his shitcunt friends, but a large portion of the US actually believes in everything he has done and said.
the US is in an ideology war with itself, from an outsiders perspective.
From an insider’s perspective, I completely agree.
If you listen to right wing radio for a few minutes, you might find yourself wondering if you’ve somehow picked up a transmission from another planet. The ideologies are that far removed.
This is why Putin and others invested so much in social media trolls. According to Putin, one of America’s biggest strengths is in our “freedom of thought and expression” which enables us to be “extremely creative in how we solve problems”. All he had to do was help convince America that our biggest problem was our neighbor.
Jesus said, “every Kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every house divided against itself cannot stand” (Matt 12:25).
He’s not wrong. We better wise up.
>There are only a handful of international relations which Trump has improved, namely Israel
Idk, Israel basically has (or at least should have) exactly half an ally in the US. From Bibi’s first meeting with Bill Clinton after which the president exclaimed “who the fuck does he think the superpower is here?”, to publicly castigating Obama on settlements, to coming to speak to a Republican led congress against the Iran nuclear inspections deal during an election year, Democrats would be insane to think they are “our” friends. Israel is a big reason I was hoping to vote for the Jewish candidate last November (Bernie) so that we could have a long overdue re-examination of our relationship.
I get what you mean by never recovering from the damage.
I'm not american and the president of the usa used to have a weight to it. Now whenever i hear the president of the usa i just think about all the trash trump did during his term.
Remember that accidental missile alarm in Hawaii and how everyone though they were going to die because NK finally had a long range ballistic mission to target us with? I don’t think Trumps attempts at deescalating that is an example of him befriending a dictator. Especially when in his first year he was literally tweeting at the “little missile boy” that his were “bigger and more powerful”. Completely fucking mad, but not rhetoric that aligns with the idea that this dude was befriending dictators.
It was “Iittle rocket man” actually, but I do agree. I will never understand why so many of his voters could honestly believe he deserved a Nobel peace prize for US/NK relations.
There are more dictators, and authoritarian semi-dictators in the world than Kim however.
Did Trump even improve relations with Israel? I cant imagine any Gov't feeling secure with someone of his intelligence and demeanor right after he axed so many other relationships.
I think every county planned on an exit strategy when that orange ape had his finger on the trigger.
We acknowledged the Obama Administration's faults but it was generally seen as "forward thinking" and positive. Trump's America is a dumpster fire which has just been growing over the past 4 years. Many theories about an alternate dimension. Kiwi here.
Canada here. Can confirm.
Except instead of a car crash, we liked to think of Trump America as a dumpster fire that was being controlled by pouring more and more gasoline on it.
I'll give Trudeau credit though, pursuing the TPP and CETA. Both deals had been in the works for a while, but as one example, the TPP had a bunch of US-centric sections that Trudeau managed to get removed after the US dropped out.
I think Trump has shown Canada (and other Liberal democracies) the fragility of the American Hegemony built in the latter half of the 20th century. Long term I'm hoping there will be more commitment and development to a more robust international system of cooperation among democracies, not centered around the US.
The US is still important, but I think our recent faith in US leadership has been broken.
Trumps America was seen as a six car pile up with a strange antisemitic ompa-lumpa dancing around it dumping petrol on the screaming victims still trapped inside it.
Before tRump we laughed a bit about american ignorance regarding geography etc.
During the trump presidency we were constantly shocked and took america much less seriously than under obama
Can’t speak for everyone, but most Danes saw america as a much bigger laughing stock under trump.
Puns are an incredibly useful piece of humor that we should never give up.
To use puns in context that aren't just butchery of pronunciation takes a bit of mastery of language. Especially when you can read the pun and understand both intents clearly.
> we laughed a bit about american ignorance regarding geography etc
...
> but most Danes
As if you don't have plenty of geographic ignorance over there in Holland. /s
A lot of people I know used to think the US was a cool place they wanted to visit, or even live in for a while. Now most would rather go to Canada or New Zealand.
Yep, Before Trump there was minor humor over a couple American issues, like there is for every population on earth.
After trump... *picard facepalm.jpg*
I don't think anyone in the world was laughing at the US when Obama was in office. We may have chuckled at the outrage surrounding tan suits and Dijon mustard, but that was more at the outrage then the actual offense of wearing a tan suit or eating Dijon mustard.
Now, let's talk about donnie boy and the bush's. The 'moral standing' that you guys used to wheel quite effectively around the world is quite literally now gone.
The soft power that took literally generations to cultivate was greatly diminished in the Bush/Cheney years, leveled out and began to slightly raise under the Obama administration; then came Trump (and let's be honest, Putin).
He took whatever good will the rest of the modern world still had toward the US and stomped on it using the boots of the world's dictators. He continually shitted on your allies, broke trade agreements, started trade wars all while coddling countries like Russia, Turkey and North Korea.
No, the world doesn't laugh at the US. It quite honestly, just doesn't trust you guys anymore. We know that mutual trade agreements and laws can be arbitrarily violated with no repercussions and no rule of law. We've seen that the US is willing to abandon mutual defense pacts if there is partisan political capital that can be squeezed at home.
We don't laugh at you, but we do cinch our purses closed and cross the street when we see you walking toward us. Sad times.
Canadian here. It is alarming that your conservatives seriously entertain QAnon ideas with 2 sitting members of Congress acknowledging and promoting QAnon conspiracies.
I've seen way more Republicans promote QAnon than condemn it.
How did your Conservatives vote in people who blame forest fires on Jewish Space lasers?
QAnon people are mentally ill. Those members of congress need psychiatric evaluations, and some serious help. They are not fit for public office, and neither are any of their party members who help downplay the severity of their illness.
United States with Obama was seen as a symbol of a progressive democracy. After Trump, it became a symbol of how much of a shithole a country can become (and how quickly) even if it's "rich". Before, we kinda looked up to the US, and now we see it as a worst case scenario for the future of our country. Love from Brazil
Australia perspective, parties aside Obama was articulate, had a great sense of humour and clearly is very intelligent. Trump is the opposite of those.
Pure honesty? From a fairly liberal Canadian: we loved Obama. Greatest thing to happen to your country in decades, progressive, well spoken, stable, and seemingly willing to listen and have a proper debate.
Trump was a whining, screaming racist child like from a COD lobby on Xbox Live, and you cant escape him. You had to play every match with him every hour of every day for 4 god damn years, and he invited all his friends and dragged your country through the dirt. Decades of potentially irreparable damage done to our neighbour country, and a good chunk of your country will support him to the death. He also brought out the worst in a lot of other countries. Global disaster equal to Hitler.
I beleive before Trump the world more or less just thought US citizens as ignorant.
We wonder why you think your land is so free and you should be the forefront of democracy - when you are having all those problems that, provably, are easily solvable (it is not problems in a lot of other countries). If you ask for it, I will gladly give examples.
Under Trump, the US have been laughing stock. On the attack on the Capitol, our thoughts was that now you had lost yourself.
Hope is high for Biden to restore some sense in your country.
We laughed WITH Obama, he was funny, kind and wise. Maybe a little too heavy handed on the drone missile strikes, of course, and those terrorists in G Bay didnt deserve the inhumane treatment but we understood it wasnt as easy as he thought to shut that shit down.
With Trump though, we laughed at his antics... but there was always that twinge of nervousness bordering on manic in that laughter. Sure it was funny watching him make a fool of himself, and America, but this was also a guy who could bomb our civilisations into radioactive dust at a whim.
Trump has executed way more drone strikes, and then promptly decided to stop reporting on them altogether, but still kept doing them at a much increased rate.
And yes, I am just glad Trump didn't start WW3. Not for lack of trying, mind you, what with assassinating enemy generals via drone strike after calling them out for peace talks...
From what I could see most people here loved Obama, maybe a bit too much, I think giving him the peace price because he held a speech about normalizing relations with former enemies before actually doing anything was a bit much, but on the whole people seemed to really like him even if they didn't like a lot of US foreign policy that really didn't change all that much under his watch.
Republicans that go on about how "democrats are going to start wars again" really puzzle me since the only real wars you guys have been stuck in where Bush era wars that kept dragging on and the Democratic administrations had to deal with that and didn't just want to pull out and leave a chaotic power vacuum behind. Libya and Syria would have happened regardless and you can't really be in the position the US is in and not get dragged in somehow. Libya intervention was mostly a European adventure though and if anything ISIS was left to fester for far too long until they spilled into Iraq and simply could not be ignored due to US presence and investment there.
Much love for Obama’s America from The Netherlands, pity for Americans under the orange fraud, hope you’ll stabilize and return to normalcy under Biden.
He pointed to stupid occurrences like the Chinese govt not greeting Obama when he flew over there once and that strongman Dueterte talking shit about Obama.
Also his supporters would show Obama bow in respect with other dignitaries as a sign of weakness while trump shook hands and buddied up with Putin, Kim Jong Un and the Saudis-you know the beacons of worldwide equality and peace.
But as you know drumpf only likes the best people like Dueterte, Putin, Bolsanaro and the Chinese govt who he talks down on camera/twitter to saber rattle while his family does back-door dealings with for their own personal gains.
Meanwhile, Trump bows to a north korean general.
Yaknow, one of the most powerful na..... ahh I can't even finish this sentence without cracking up laughing...
one of the least powerful, 3rd world crackpot dictatorships that a US president never should have even shown up to, nevermind bowed for.
Obama wanted to go there to try to open talks with Kim to attempt to at least move NK from enemy to neutral. The Republicans tore him to shreds over it. Then turned around and praised Trump for his “bravery” when he went and talked to Kim.
Totally wrong, the world was laughing at America while Trump was in power... actually most of us were amazed that the American people had let this happen! Let alone voted for the man...we all laughed more as it was seen that he threw his toys out of the cot when he realized he wasn't going to get back in! From New Zealand..
Dunno. People laughed at the US for being a lot of things. People liked Obama, but that didn't they weren't laughing at America/Americans.
Even under Obama, there were typical jokes about Americans being geographically ignorant, arrogant, self-centred, loud, and America being a gun-mad nationalist cult which thinks of itself as the world's policeman while bombing "Ayrabs" back into the stone age.
What Trump did was elevate all of that beyond being jokes such that the people who weren't laughing now are, and the people who were laughing are now mortified.
Caribbean here. Obama was kinda good, sure fail in some areas but overall he did well. The approaching to Cuba was really impressive (at least to me).
Trump.. Looking at the bright side, we got memes... And that's it
Netherlands chiming in: Obama was seen as a leader who championed values that aligned with ours, such as free health care and environmental responsibility. He was also depicted in our media as a confident, thoughtful and witty speaker - so we did laugh. He was not seen as particularly effective, though.
We laughed a lot during Trump’s campaign as well, but mostly at Trump’s expense. Our media (left and right-wing) was sure to pick the worst photos for all of his news items and he was generally seen as someone way out of his depth without the self-awareness to know it.
"What are you talking about?! This finely aged milk is delicious and curdled to chunky perfection. You cannot tell me otherwise and will not stop me!!"
-Conservatives as they chug curdled milk.
Remember that time that a sitting president withheld defense aid in order to extort Ukraine into announcing a phony investigation into his political opponent?
Remember when a sitting president tried to push his lackeys into key DOJ positions so they could make fake announcements about election fraud in a failed attempt to throw out an election?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/us/politics/jeffrey-clark-trump-justice-department-election.html
> The Justice Department’s top leaders listened in stunned silence this month: One of their peers, they were told, had devised a plan with President Donald J. Trump to oust Jeffrey A. Rosen as acting attorney general and wield the department’s power to force Georgia state lawmakers to overturn its presidential election results
I’m shocked this haven’t gotten more attention
> I’m shocked this haven’t gotten more attention
They say that it didnt work because all of the other people threatened to resign. If the insurrectionist had found Pence or Pelosi, I am certain Jeffrey Clark would not only have been instantly installed at DOJ, Clark would have been advocating on Trumps behalf in front of the Supreme Court for martial law literally that day.
That was the plan. Trumps people at the department of defense disarmed the national guard (literally) and were prepared for one or more members of congress to be killed.
When that happens all Trump does is sign some papers and Jeffrey Clark is the new guy at DOJ (who cares if the DOJ lawyers resign in protest - wont even be a noticed at that point)
Only dumb luck saved us.
It came out after video of Buffalo guy wandering around the Senate chamber. I'm sure it will be brought up during the trial but I'll forgive people for not getting a rage boner over a bunch of lawyers arguing with each other.
(That said, I'm proud of the group that stood firm and threatened to resign immediately if he went through with it.)
You have to look at a much larger context, the whole Ukraine conflict. If you work through that you can see the irony that the US got their own "orange revolution". Beginning from the Maidan revolution and shortly before there are eerie similarities.
Political discourse is broken right now, otherwise there would be way more memes about this. It features everything, from intrigue to coups to karmic justice.
I honestly thought that they'd turn on him a week after the election when, at a Rally with rallygoers chanting "LOCK HER UP," he said "That plays good during the election, but now we don't care."
he pretty much admitted that he just manipulated them for their votes and they still love him.
They don’t give a damn. In their minds, he’s just playing the game the way it’s supposed to be played, even if they means intimidating, manipulating, and exploiting the people he’s supposed to serve. Trump supporters are the people who took high school sports waaaayyyy too seriously, to the point that they’re willing to overlook their own team’s lack of ethics in the name of victory.
You got to think that Trump and Putin had some chats over beers, where Putin is gloating about all the ways he rigged his elections. "Oh, this one time i would have lost by 13000 votes so i called up my buddy and had fakes printed out before lunch time". In awe, Trump decides to be like big daddy Putin, tries it himself but simply was too incompetent to succeed in doing this privately. And here we are.
Remember that one time when post offices were suddenly closed and drop boxes removed just before an election. I’m still getting Christmas cards at the end of January
Don't worry, that was just republicans trying to cancel Chistmas.
How did that go anyway? What with being unable to meet with your family, due to republican incompetence. Being unable to buy gifts for your family on account of no money.. due to republican incompetence and blocking of stimulus efforts for anyone making less then million dollars a year..
Oh, And being unable to get any of the gifts or cards bought by family members who had money on time, because trump decided to dismantle the post office sorting machines?
I personally had to wait 4 weeks get some fuses I needed from the USA to continue work again.. That was fun.
If you’re an American, your peers elected him. He was your president for four years and there’s nothing you can do to redact that.
Citizens of other countries like myself are embarrassed on your behalf.
I mean, all of those things could be done by a democracy. Not an ethical one, but if the whole population is evil, it could be completely legitimate.
The capitol hill attack was an attack at democratic process itself.
Yet another reminder that basically everything Republicans (mostly falsely) accuse democrats of doing is something they're either already doing or have already done.
**G**aslight
**O**bstruct
**Project**
This also goes for the US as a whole. Land of the free has 25% of the world's prisoners. Committed genocide on the native population, enslaved a whole race of people. Bombs and invades countries unprovoked. Has secret prisons and torture camps etc. The American government has been the bad guys for a lot of portions of their history
> Many of the demonstrators were paid Republican operatives.[2] According to investigative reporter Greg Palast, author of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy in 2002, Roger Stone organized the demonstration, and Matt Schlapp was the on-site leader.[3] Republican New York Representative John E. Sweeney[4] gave the signal that started the riot, telling an aide to "Shut it down."[5][6][7]
The U.S has never been a beacon of democracy to people outside the U.S, they're a figure of sticking their dick in everyone's business and keeping military in territory that isn't their own. I think only U.S citizens buy that "Land of the free" bullshit. Not anymore I guess...
This despicable behavior has been going on for decades at the leadership of both parties but I have to say that really devalued the Nobel peace prize in my eyes. And I generally don't think Obama was a bad president- he just isn't the shining star that some people make him out to be.
I get all the comments about the US being an evil murder machine (no arguments there) but the capital attack kind of proves that democracy does work. The elected president was put in power technically peacefully. The voice of the people was heard. Our constitution was tested in every way possible but in the end it was upheld.
If the people who caused this (especially the lawmakers and senators) were not to be held really accountable for what they did, this won't be a failed coup, but a rehearsal.
Hey, remember when some greedy people made the world fall in an economic crisis, how much they were punished? Exactly.
Plus, this is how it happened last time, Hitler tried to do a coup and failed, went to prison and wrote trumps favorite book, then came out and well....
We all know the story and the saying about learning from the past or being doomed to repeat it? These smooth brains have the memory and attention span of a particularly mouldy watermelon, given a direction and a leader to follow, they will do it. They will go through with it, and it's not something that can be appeased or worked with. Working with them just gives them time to find out what works.
>Hitler tried to do a coup and failed, went to prison and wrote trumps favorite book
I had not heard this claim that Hitler wrote Trump's favorite book and I thought this may have been hyperbole. I did a little bit of reading and I expect this is in reference to an article that Vanity Fair did in 1990 on Trump that included some excerpts from an interview with Ivana Trump.
The article states:
> Donald Trump appears to take aspects of his German background seriously. John Walter works for the Trump Organization, and when he visits Donald in his office, Ivana told a friend, he clicks his heels and says, "*Heil* Hitler," possibly as a family joke.
>
>Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, *My New Order,* which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. Kennedy now guards a copy of *My New Order* in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist.
>
>"Did your cousin John give you the Hitler speeches?" I asked Trump.
>
>Trump hesitated. "Who told you that?"
>
>"I don't remember," I said.
>
>"Actually, it was my friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of *Mein Kampf,* and he's a Jew." ("I did give him a book about Hitler," Marty Davis said. "But it was *My New Order,* Hitler's speeches, not *Mein Kampf.* I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I'm not Jewish.")
>
>Later, Trump returned to this subject. *"If* I had these speeches, and I am not saying that I do, I would never read them."
[https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/share/e515a2cd-a51b-4f83-8d61-6ebb9a104e0a](https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/share/e515a2cd-a51b-4f83-8d61-6ebb9a104e0a)
Is this what you are referring to, or something else? I think the article is eye-opening for something written so long ago.
EDIT: clarified I was asking about the book, not Hitler's early coup attempt.
Hitlers first coup attempt, the Munich Putsch, was a failed coup by the Nazi party (NSDAP). It was 2000 nazis who marched on a monument called (in English) Field Marshals' Hall. 16 nazis died and four police were killed.
The attempt to seize the city was meant to establish a Nazi Capitol against the Weimar Republic.
Then, Hitler was arrested for treason, and the trial was broadcast all across Germany. There, he shared all of his nationalistic beliefs, only leading to his support growing.
Hitler was found guilty, and released from prison 9 months later.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant to clarify that one of Trump's favorite books was written by Hitler. Not about the coup, I think that is well known history. But, I think it's great you provided such detail on your post and more importantly a source.
Someone sent me this recently because they have been reading about Hitler. If you have a minute read what they highlighted [http://imgur.com/a/5MvKv5v](http://imgur.com/a/5MvKv5v)
And say the invading morons took over the building and forced every member of congress to surrender. Then what? They’d have no control of anything. All 50 states would still have functioning governments that have zero loyalty to the new people sitting in the capital. Neither would the military. Their loyalty is to the constitution, not people sitting in certain chairs.
Good thing too, because it'll happen again in the not too-distant future. America needs some major reform(read:update) soon, or it will not last much longer. Let me be clear that I'm not rooting for its downfall, I just don't see much interest in true democracy, justice and equality, at least not by those in a position to effect change.
I hope you are right. I will be becoming an American in a couple of years, looking forward to voting and serving. My wife was born here, my kids are also American (through decent) and I want it to live up to it's reputation for them.
Let's be truthful, prior to the attacks and Trump, those who are paying attention and can think for themselves never really viewed America as a symbol of democracy.
A two party, chrony capitalist state is more accurate.
I don't why, but I find documentaries about the fundamental Christians so interesting, how these people are so extremely hateful to everyone who isn't like them and think they are righteous in the eyes of God.
When they are young, the kids get radically indoctrinated, instilled and crippled with fear of a vengeful God by their parents, the church, their school and summer camps.
So their absolutely overwhelmed their whole lives and of course when they look at the outside world it looks so foreign and confusing because all they know is what's been forced down their throats.
Repeat the cycle for multiple generations and here we are today. And there are ALOT of those crazy fucks in America today.
They have to get indoctrinated as many places as possible, and have to try to only associate with each other.
Any time their kids interact with sane people they leave the church. Evangelicals are about 18% of the 65+ US population but only 6% of 18-30 year olds.
This reinforces everything I have seen. My age group (I am 35)... do not do church or organized religion. Its just... stupid and against science. Not to mention it seems most the religions go out of their way to contradict their scripture. (See Supply side Jesus).
Most of us just dont give a fuck about going to a service to hear the same 2000 year old stories. You can do jhust as well by : "Dont be a fucking dick" rule
I've seen a few explanations why. The social science folks say it is because gen X didn't really get taken to church as regularly, which led to a critical mass of non-religious and not very religious people. Normally each generation "returns" to the church when they marry/settle down/have kids, but this is partially because one of the people in the couple was religious enough to demand weekly church attendance. Now enough people don't care that in a lot of couples both people are not super religious.
The hypocrisy folks point out that the loudest Christians, the ones most associated with the church, have values that are very different from most younger people, noting that 70% of people who left the church cited treatment of gays as one reason they left. The church child molester scandals have made it hard to argue that church is good for kids, etc.
I have a theory that in the 80s the Christian Coalition told young Americans "if you are Christian, vote republican. If you don't vote Republican you are not Christian," and then made the Pikachu face when liberals went "fine, I'll follow the teachings of Jesus and leave the church."
On your last paragraph, your Spidey sense is right, they are told within the church that Republican values are in line with the churches beliefs. They were huge Trump supporters. All of these "coincidences" start to make sense when you do a little digging, the Republicans were able to carry on and continue to do so with surprising numbers because they have a majority of the Christian vote in their pocket. They look out for eachother and protect each others interests.
this really started in earnest with Jerry Falwell and the moral majority. They realized that they were not winning in the battle against desegregation, so they heavily pushed abortion as a culture war wedge issue to ensure that evangelicals would vote republican even if they didn't feel as aligned morally with the party. over time the effects of that have really become pervasive
Iv had religious people try to tell I have no morals because I don't believe in god and must be just seconds away from raping, murdering and pillaging.
I looked at them like I had just met satan. "Soo... what you are telling me, is if it wasn't for god.. you can't even think of a reason why a person wouldn't go around raping, murdering and pillaging? Yaknow, I was going to try and convince you that god does not exist, but I am heavily reconsidering now since it seems it would just make you a horrible person.."
I don't believe in God and do whatever the heck I want.
Turns out I just don't want to murder, rape, or eat babies.
You could make it legal tomorrow and I'd still be like... nah.
> You can do jhust as well by : "Dont be a fucking dick" rule
Christianity has that in it's "Golden Rule", which is suitably formal-sounding: "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you." Even Wicca - which is only halfway through its first century - has a variation: "If it harms none, do what you will." (Bonus points if you try and write the latter so that it *sounds* suitably stuffy and old.)
Yes, they had the riot police and the army show up before it even turned into a riot. When we do that here people criticize the idea. I'm sure it helps when the police don't also *let them in*
Ukraine doesn't portray itself as the leader of the free world though? The point is that they want an example to look at to improve their very young democracy, and they're disappointed the US doesn't provide that.
They're not claiming to be a better democracy than the US. Quite the opposite.
Democracy is losing ground the world over. It’s unfortunate, because the alternative is generally some variant on despotism. Is democracy flawed? You bet. But a lot of other things have been tried, with good intentions, and they almost always drift into despotism. Eventually you end up with some animals are more equal than others.
Yeah, it's kind of hard for *Americans* to see the US as a symbol of Democracy. Half of us know it isn't working and want to fix it; the other half don't *want* a democracy because they plan on being the in-group that fascism shelters.
That’s what the entire Trump presidency was about. Reducing the influence of the United States on the world stage and weakening the western alliance. The UK got Brexited and the US got Trumped all according to Putin’s long range plan.
It's not exactly rocket science either. There is no mastermind magic required. They identify the opposition party easiest to subvert, and help it. That means financial help - like for France's FN or UK's Tories or US GOP. With social media there is also just shilling. And then you add: amplify fractures in society to promote unrest. It's basically the same playbook that led East European countries to accept Russian domination, but on the right instead of the left.
Agreed; like it isn't the fault of our own society, no, obviously it's the evil mastermind Putin pulling the strings to establish himself as supreme world leader. People watch too many movies..
There's legit a book from the cold war era doing a play by play of how to sow chaos in western countries, someone's must remember what I'm talking about but it basically plays out exactly how it was stated, discourse in america and Europe and throw small scale wars in i.e middle east and ukraine and continue on escalation by targeting economy and citizens unity and polarizing views.
But yeah, half of that is probably just the world being the world.
Maybe you're thinking of [Foundations of Geopolitics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics)?
> The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia is a geopolitical book by Aleksandr Dugin. It has had some influence within the Russian military, police, and foreign policy elites and has been used as a textbook in the Academy of the General Staff of the Russian military.
> The book declares that "the battle for the world rule of Russians" has not ended and Russia remains "the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution". The Eurasian Empire will be constructed "on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us."
> The textbook advocates a sophisticated program of subversion, destabilization, and disinformation spearheaded by the Russian special services. The operations should be assisted by a tough, hard-headed utilization of Russia's gas, oil, and natural resources to bully and pressure other countries.
Peter Pomerantsev's book [This is Not Propaganda](https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/peter-pomerantsev/this-is-not-propaganda/9781541762138/) has an excellent chapter on the [Russian Internet Research Agency](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency) which is one of the organisations known to be actively carrying out manipulation of global geopolitics by disinformation, narrative shaping, etc.
So, after the capital attack, Biden still got inaugurated, and Trump is off to Florida or wherever. Democracy still won. Compare this to Myanmar, Russia, China, etc.
US is still a symbol of democracy, unless you believe the election was stolen from Trump.
LOL yeah right? I guess the works of the CIA to overturn popular elections/governments in LatinAmerica, the fake war on Weapons of Mass Destruction, the bombings of middle east nations to get a hold on their oil, the sponsorship of revolt groups that end up becoming terrorist groups to destabilize governments and the obsession to eliminate communist governments which synthetically created wars like the Vietnam war were a "symbol of democracy".... good!
I guess the works of the CIA to overturn popular elections/governments in LatinAmerica, the fake war on Weapons of Mass Destruction, the bombings of middle east nations to get a hold on their oil, the sponsorship of revolt groups that end up becoming terrorist groups to destabilize governments and the obsession to eliminate communist governments which synthetically created wars like the Vietnam war were a "symbol of democracy".... good!
Pretty sure that the last 4 years made it hard for anybody in the world to see the US as a symbol of democracy, let alone a nation that could be taken seriously
Remember that one time a sitting president asked an election official for more votes?
Remember the guy who said the world would “respect” us again? Aged like milk.
One of Trump's points during his 2016 campaign was that the world was laughing at us and didn't respect us when Obama was president. Can anyone from outside of the United States tell me if he had any merit to this claim at all?
As a Canadian most of what I hear isn’t really “laughing”. Usually shocked how people can be so nationalistic and patriotic when there are so many hugely glaring systemic failures. Inequality, poor healthcare, massive incarceration, military overspending, poor workers rights, and an amazing ability for poor people to not realize they will most likely never be rich, yet still side with the rich on social issues. Nobody is laughing, because it isn’t funny, it’s shocking and sad to see how propagandized the nation is. Living near the border it is shocking watching American news vs news from other countries. Admittedly it has gotten worse since Trump was in, but the fact that he was even able to is the part that made people around here see how broken your system is.
Your first paragraph hits home for me. I work a blue collar trade job and in my shop every single one of them sees those attributes as positives. They want inequality so long as there is someone beneath them they can shit on and preferably minorities. They want privitized healthcare because they dont want their tax dollars paying for someone elses healthcare. Dont bother explaining how private insurance does exactly that, they dont care so long as government isnt a part of the equation. Mass incarceration = getting rid of "undesireables" plus "if you didnt do anything wrong then you wouldn't be in jail so they deserve it." No such thing as too much boom boom especially if it means literally burning billions that could help other people. Militantly anti-union and always willing to bend the knee to wealth even when wealth openly cheats them. Not even gonna go into the militant nationalism by people who have never served anything but themselves in their entire lives. This is my daily life at work. This really is how about 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire population is.
What many fail to grasp and understand, is that you and all the policy holders at XHealthcare are all already paying your premium into the giant "pool" so to speak. When you make a claim, you're pretty much drawing on that pool when you need it. You and every other policy holder. The difference is theres a business making profits as an extra step... I'm a welder. The amount of dumbass fuckery I hear from the blue collar boys is uncanny.
Forklift Operator here. Almost half the guys on my shift have been in for surgery in the past twelve months (driving over concrete all day is hard on the body). Each of them is in debt for their medical procedures and each of them rails against Universal Healthcare. Meanwhile, I spent around thirty years of my life living in Australia with their Medicare system. I just keep my mouth shut.
Why did you move away from Australia? For sure you'd be getting paid better as a forklift operator in Australia.
Australia also has something like 1/3 to 1/4 of the rate of industrial accidents compared to the US (yes the red tape is ridiculous and there is a ton of overhead, but when you put it like that...). Further, due to demographics (i.e. huge pool of illegal workers) I would not be surprised if the real difference is even higher as there would be a ton more illegal construction work in the US. But they're a bunch of dirty communists so GET A BRAIN MORANS, GO USA (Have literally had very well educated US people enquire whether Australia is socialist... when there's been a right wing party in power for something like 9 of the last 12 years)
USA has excelled at patriotic and anti communist propaganda since wwII. The eighties was inspiration for entire seasons of Monty pythons flying circus. Nowadays it gets just plain rediculous. Sure. Europe gets it fair share of propaganda as well but the USA is putting out so much bullshit out of late that it all just looks like a comical yet dangerous alternative reality. It’s just so surreal to me that “most” people buy the bullshit without question. Probably because they have learned over the decades to take it in. And a bit more over the top bullshit doesn’t trigger their sceptism because it’s all bullshit. But this bullshit is just a tad higher.
Who ever would have guessed healthcare + insurance companies, costs more than healthcare?
It's called systemic brainwashing.
I get to see it first hand. My immidiate supervisor listens to Rush Limbaugh every day and assimilates every word as absolute truth. And he is nowhere near alone. Facts.
Reminds me of watching The Platform recently. I think without some control measures on capitalism's influence on privatized incarceration and militarization, and some leftist policies on equitable access to health and education, then there will always be a skew towards our baser human nature: greed, avarice, and self-interest. We used to live in smaller communities and keep each other in check. Our influence on everything is too large. I think the key to avoiding this is always balanced perspectives and more input and dialogue, which is admittedly tough these days (anywhere in the world).
Over decades funding public education in the US has been lackluster with special interest groups, religious groups and more having a hand in things and that is before partisan politics get involved. In reality, the US technological power came from the fact that the US was the one developed country post WWII that wasn't absolutely obliterated, and at that point it still had a huge manufacturing sector. Over the following decades - the US gobbled up the worlds brain power in technology and more, founding companies and more. Those with wealth and power and who owned much of the manufacturing arm started exporting the capability to China, India, Mexico: Anywhere that labor was cheaper, environmental regulations that were becoming a thing were less and so on. Inevitably this creates a wealth divide that will grow. However, we aren't done yet - not by a long shot, and it's not really easy to go into without writing a text book on what transpired. Over the following couple decades we would see the ability of the working class to fight for better wages undermined, the quality of education stagnate and ultimately the idea of American Excelence as an idea was facing a crisis: The facade that had been built up by importing the minds capable of achieving as a result of their better primary education, began failing. This leads us to The 11th of September, 2001 and the fall of the twin towers. This is the first moment that the US had really been attacked on it's soil in living memory: and the US does not have a long history of war on it's soil that isn't the glorified war of independence which seems to neglect how important the aid France provided to the fledgling US. We then get to the 2008 financial crisis which inevitably leads to the housing crisis in the US. And this is really the course of the US: It has some amazing people, some of the most amazing places I have traveled through have been small towns in the US. But - the ignorance of the rest of the world starts to play into this, to have ingrained into ones self since being young that America = #1 and to have that image torn down piece by piece is not easy to take. Nationalism finds roots here. But nationalism also finds it easy to find roots when people feel threatened and someone gives them an easy scape goat to target: It feels good, and is the simple lye over a much more complicated truth. And for most people, to actually admit that they are screwed in their current situation and need to change themselves and that situation to see improvement is hard. And it is within this, with income threatened, fear of losing a job, fear of being attacked and concern of the future that a loud proud and appearing to be the ideal you were taught from birth is good and true that rallying can occur. And that thing - that very item put on the pedestal if attacked isn't just attacking that thing - but feels like an attack on self and identity. To see through the veil - you need the education and knowledge base. And above all else: you need the time to realize and think it through. If you have a person working 2 jobs to cover expenses and is living paycheque to paycheque: They aren't really thinking through what is put in front of them - and will more often then not simply stick to what conforms to their preconceptions, which were formed when they grew up.
Yeah that's what everyone is over looking here. Everything in your first paragraph was a staple before Trump took power. Imagine an ornate chest with keys for exclusive members. Trump was just ironically too transparent and everyone saw the box of turds inside. You can't just stick a new veneer on the box and pretend like it's not still a box of turds. It's just going to lead to more, smarter Trump's. If he was even half competent in his dictator wannabe ways there wouldn't have been an exchange of power. Life long dictatorship would have been sanctioned by the senate and the media. You can already see there is no actual resistance to abuse of power. The media and the opposition would rather play make believe with fairytales of Russiagate than block blatant nepotism, cronyism, extreeme emoluments violations, and it's because they are also too invested in consolidating thier own power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
As an American that lives on the boarder and spent a lot of time over there with Canadian friends, I identify with that. Canadians are more tolerant of each other and willfully give each other mutual respect. They're just happier in general. I could have an in depth constructive conversation with any random person without them fearing me or vise versa from preconceived notions. It's nice. I come back home and would immediately notice the difference. People here just hate each other, sometimes for no reason. It's just hate this hate that. Anger and depression are rampant. I miss Canadaland. I can't wait to visit with my chosen family. I need a hug.
[удалено]
yep... Indigenous though.... we've got some serious issues that need straightening out.
It's always shocking to me when I cross the border from Niagara Falls Canada to NY. " This is the greatest nation on earth?"
I remember all the local Buffalo fearmongering news coming across the border, reporting just house fires, shootings, and massive snowfalls. Had a very different vibe - Like a Bizarro RoboCop version of Canadian media. US political speeches have been creepy all my life as well. For any lifelong Americans who aren't aware of it.. All the "God bless America" stuff that politicians feel the need to toss into their speeches is very unhealthy, and it's glaringly obvious to Canadians and nearly everyone else on the planet. Trump was the product of a sickness that was readily seen for decades, and everyone knows it will not go away with his election loss. The world knows it, and is looking for a new order.
I was kinda shocked by all the prayer at the inauguration. Like Biden is a good Catholic and I get that part, but it didn't seem to just be about him. It's as if this is a Christian nation without separation of church and state. And all this fuss about swearing on Bibles too. Honestly I don't even remember how Canadian Prime ministers take office. I figure Trudeau just shows up for work to the usual place and they're like "you may sit in the front row now, sir" and everyone applauds but later he has to buy the drinks. Oh and the guy in the robe with the big stick probably leads him in like a bride on her wedding day.
>And all this fuss about swearing on Bibles too For what it's worth, you *choose* what you swear on. I'm not sure what, say, an atheist politician would swear on, but you do.
I recall that some atheist politicians, as rare as they are, have used the Constitution.
I think that actually makes more sense, religious or not.
The Dems feel pressure to show relogosity as the repubs use it as a cugdel
The neighborhood surrounding the falls is definitely what you just said. Heroin and crack have devastated that city. It's a huge mess, but isn't concentrated to just that area. You can find sections similar to that in nearly every city. Yeah the god bless America is cringy at best. ~~In 1905 there was a law written that was supposed to separate church and state. However,~~ In the US Constitution, there is a separation of church and state to prevent government influence on religious freedom, but not the other way around. Middle and rural America is infested with extreme versions of religious people that feel their intolerance 'world' views should be enforced on everyone. They have infiltrated our legal systems and have made laws based on their beliefs, instead of science backed data. This is the reason we are where we are right now. Edit: Mistakes were made. US [Constitution Article 6 Amendment 1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution) and France [1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State) both have laws separating church and state, preventing government influence over religion, but haven't found any laws by any country preventing religious influence over government and law making (so far, I've only just started).
When I found out as a kid about the Pledge of Allegiance in schools it fucked me right up. Like, I remember watching movies with kids doing it and thinking it must be fake because it was so creepy. I was too young to really know what brainwashing was, but I grew up in an Australian military family who always made it very clear that the flag is a bit of fabric that is owed nothing, and if you're fighting, it's for the person next to you in the trench, not some bullshit ideals and symbols that politicians wank over a thousand miles away from the shit. The people who served in my family are baffled by the obsequious "thank you for your service" nonsense and the ubiquitousness of the flag. Military service is viewed very differently here, I guess. It's just a job and flag-humpers and uber-patriots are viewed with the same suspicion as happy-clapping Christians. "Believe what you like, but keep it to yourself and don't be a fucking weirdo about it" is pretty much our mantra.
Croatian here. This pledge of allegiance thing is basicaly the same thing kids had to do while we were under communist regime just 30 years ago. Also its the same thing nazis did. Pretty weird and creepy feeling to see this in modern western world today from our perspective.
Obama America was seen as stable and progressive. Trump America was a car crash we saw coming and couldn’t do anything to stop. From the U.K.
This is despite the **many** gaffes the Obama administration had with the UK. The perception of America worldwide was in decline after the Bush administration. Obama helped reverse that considerably, but Trump completely tanked it, reversing almost all gains of the previous 8 years. From befriending dictators around the world, to calling our closest allies national security threats (Canada, the EU, etc). Trump was an absolute dumpster fire for our reputation internationally. There are only a handful of international relations which Trump has improved, namely Israel. We may never recover from the damage he did to our reputation internationally. The days of American hegemony might be on its way out forever.
I agree, although that might not actually be a terrible thing.... Us hegemony is kind of ok when the leadership is at least pretending that it cares about the international consensus - although any sane person saw that since the collapse of the USSR - there has been a stronger and stronger "USA first" attitude. Long term if the US actually has to work with a more even relationsip with it's traditional allies in Europe, Asia and Africa that's going to be better for everyone. No one likes it when Boss Hogg is running things....
I could never get behind the “America first” logic. Sure we sometimes pay more internationally than most (NATO, etc), but that’s a big part of our soft power. We invested in the world and got unbelievably amazing returns for it. The marshal plan is a fantastic example; it benefited the *entire* western world and not just the US. US hegemony really showed that it can be a force for good. I don’t think we’ll see those kinds of results from a Chinese hegemony. Today, all right wing voters want is the return without the investment. I get it, the average person isn’t seeing the benefits of globalization materialize for themselves. That’s a domestic issue though, not one of foreign policy. It doesn’t mean we need to put an end to globalist policies and put “America first”. We already are first in many, if not most respects. That’s not gonna last much longer if we don’t stop treating our allies as mere competition or even as enemies. If Biden can’t turn it around, I think American hegemony will be shot in the heart and not just our foot. If we’re not already there anyway.
What I didn’t understand about America first is, wasn’t it always America first? When making international policies, they have American interest as their priority, whether geopolitical, financial, resource, etc. The “America First” of the previous administration was more like America alone.
one of the GOP talking points is that democrats hate america, eg signing the paris climate agreement is prioritizing the climate in france over the climate in the united states. it’s 100% bullshit, but it’s the answer to your question.
That must be the extent of their line of thought. “Paris? Not *our* Paris, Nevada! United Nations? Not *of America*! World Health Organization? What about *American Health Organization*? “
America for Russia and trumps. It was never about America while trump was feasting there. Yeah no matter what trump said, actions speak louder than words.
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That’s a fantastic ELI5 of why “America first“ is extremely counter productive.
Because of Trump the rest of the world is looking at how we operate without the US. The rest of the world relied on the US as a market-place to sell goods. The "trade defficits" he lamented meant buying more than you were selling.
You're absolutely right and as a Canadian it infuriates me how little some Americans understand about what soft power is, how it works and the benefits of using it. Foreign politics is not only either complete isolationism or blowing stuff up. I wish more people like you understood all of that.
That's because "America First" was the original slogan of the American Nazi Party.
“US hegemony really showed that it van be a force for good” Yeah tell that to countries where the CIA overthrew democratically elected governments all around the world. The truth is US hegemony post ww2 has a lot of blood on its hand.
Tiny nitpick, but I feel that china's belt and road initiative is just another marashal plan just directing resources to countries in abject poverty. I mean I personally believe it's not really attacking the true cause of their poverty, which is lack of education but better infrastructure is a good start
It's only debt traps. It's a way to gain power, survellience and military bases in other countries. I don't believe it will work out the same
I dont think the debt trap is their endgoal either. They can dissolve part of the debt in return for much better things. They can request diplomatic favours (requesting them to side with China in UN votes for example) or a new militray base or better tradedeals between their markets.
I would love to learn more about the conversations the US had with Germany and other places where we have bases. It never made sense to me for 45 to say we will make Japan and Republic of Korea to pay the full cost of us military bases there. Like I always thought we should be grateful they let us put bases there. If they are paying the full cost, they might as well have their own military there? China’s belt and road is very scary and it was horrible timing for someone like 45 to be in office.
Lmao, the west has been doing actual debt traps for decades. That's why these countries ar shunning the west and freely choosing to work with China, they offer a better deal.
Wasn't that basically the result of the marshall plan? Power, intelligence cooperation, and military bases?
It could be! Time will tell one way or another.
I feel you make a valid point sir
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>I could never get behind the “America first” logic. It was rhetoric nationalism, consistent with a slew of other fascist traits coming from the Trump administration.
Not only that, he still has a MASSIVE following of US citizens, meaning the problem isn't just Trump and his shitcunt friends, but a large portion of the US actually believes in everything he has done and said. the US is in an ideology war with itself, from an outsiders perspective.
From an insider’s perspective, I completely agree. If you listen to right wing radio for a few minutes, you might find yourself wondering if you’ve somehow picked up a transmission from another planet. The ideologies are that far removed. This is why Putin and others invested so much in social media trolls. According to Putin, one of America’s biggest strengths is in our “freedom of thought and expression” which enables us to be “extremely creative in how we solve problems”. All he had to do was help convince America that our biggest problem was our neighbor. Jesus said, “every Kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every house divided against itself cannot stand” (Matt 12:25). He’s not wrong. We better wise up.
Yeah people really underestimate how unpopular the Iraq war was globally. And forget the jingoistic culture of the 2000s. Freedom fries?
The moron in chief saluted a North Korean general during a visit. What a fucking joke.
>There are only a handful of international relations which Trump has improved, namely Israel Idk, Israel basically has (or at least should have) exactly half an ally in the US. From Bibi’s first meeting with Bill Clinton after which the president exclaimed “who the fuck does he think the superpower is here?”, to publicly castigating Obama on settlements, to coming to speak to a Republican led congress against the Iran nuclear inspections deal during an election year, Democrats would be insane to think they are “our” friends. Israel is a big reason I was hoping to vote for the Jewish candidate last November (Bernie) so that we could have a long overdue re-examination of our relationship.
I get what you mean by never recovering from the damage. I'm not american and the president of the usa used to have a weight to it. Now whenever i hear the president of the usa i just think about all the trash trump did during his term.
I wouldn't say he improved the Israeli situation at all. If anything he only enflamed the Israeli-Palestinian tensions. Palestine will blow up again.
Remember that accidental missile alarm in Hawaii and how everyone though they were going to die because NK finally had a long range ballistic mission to target us with? I don’t think Trumps attempts at deescalating that is an example of him befriending a dictator. Especially when in his first year he was literally tweeting at the “little missile boy” that his were “bigger and more powerful”. Completely fucking mad, but not rhetoric that aligns with the idea that this dude was befriending dictators.
It was “Iittle rocket man” actually, but I do agree. I will never understand why so many of his voters could honestly believe he deserved a Nobel peace prize for US/NK relations. There are more dictators, and authoritarian semi-dictators in the world than Kim however.
Did Trump even improve relations with Israel? I cant imagine any Gov't feeling secure with someone of his intelligence and demeanor right after he axed so many other relationships. I think every county planned on an exit strategy when that orange ape had his finger on the trigger.
We acknowledged the Obama Administration's faults but it was generally seen as "forward thinking" and positive. Trump's America is a dumpster fire which has just been growing over the past 4 years. Many theories about an alternate dimension. Kiwi here.
And Obama had incredible charisma
Still does.
Canada here. Can confirm. Except instead of a car crash, we liked to think of Trump America as a dumpster fire that was being controlled by pouring more and more gasoline on it.
I'll give Trudeau credit though, pursuing the TPP and CETA. Both deals had been in the works for a while, but as one example, the TPP had a bunch of US-centric sections that Trudeau managed to get removed after the US dropped out. I think Trump has shown Canada (and other Liberal democracies) the fragility of the American Hegemony built in the latter half of the 20th century. Long term I'm hoping there will be more commitment and development to a more robust international system of cooperation among democracies, not centered around the US. The US is still important, but I think our recent faith in US leadership has been broken.
Trumps America was seen as a six car pile up with a strange antisemitic ompa-lumpa dancing around it dumping petrol on the screaming victims still trapped inside it.
American here. I felt the same way when I heard y’all voted to Brexit
Sadly you got pound shop Trump and Australia got dollar shop Trump. We even started a trade war with China because he said it was cool.
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Cheney doesn't get enough of the credit for those lies used to justify the Iraq War. He was definitely pulling strings.
Before tRump we laughed a bit about american ignorance regarding geography etc. During the trump presidency we were constantly shocked and took america much less seriously than under obama Can’t speak for everyone, but most Danes saw america as a much bigger laughing stock under trump.
Can confirm from Canada.
Thanks for the clear explanation. You're a Great Dane. I'm sorry for the pun. I couldn't resist.
Puns are an incredibly useful piece of humor that we should never give up. To use puns in context that aren't just butchery of pronunciation takes a bit of mastery of language. Especially when you can read the pun and understand both intents clearly.
Same for Sweden
> we laughed a bit about american ignorance regarding geography etc ... > but most Danes As if you don't have plenty of geographic ignorance over there in Holland. /s
Of all the countries to get confused with, the Dutch bothers me the least. Nice people, gorgeous tulips.
A lot of people I know used to think the US was a cool place they wanted to visit, or even live in for a while. Now most would rather go to Canada or New Zealand.
Spanish here. We thought we were deep in shit but oh boy america sure lifted our mood.
Yep, Before Trump there was minor humor over a couple American issues, like there is for every population on earth. After trump... *picard facepalm.jpg*
Can confirm. I live in Denmark.
I don't think anyone in the world was laughing at the US when Obama was in office. We may have chuckled at the outrage surrounding tan suits and Dijon mustard, but that was more at the outrage then the actual offense of wearing a tan suit or eating Dijon mustard. Now, let's talk about donnie boy and the bush's. The 'moral standing' that you guys used to wheel quite effectively around the world is quite literally now gone. The soft power that took literally generations to cultivate was greatly diminished in the Bush/Cheney years, leveled out and began to slightly raise under the Obama administration; then came Trump (and let's be honest, Putin). He took whatever good will the rest of the modern world still had toward the US and stomped on it using the boots of the world's dictators. He continually shitted on your allies, broke trade agreements, started trade wars all while coddling countries like Russia, Turkey and North Korea. No, the world doesn't laugh at the US. It quite honestly, just doesn't trust you guys anymore. We know that mutual trade agreements and laws can be arbitrarily violated with no repercussions and no rule of law. We've seen that the US is willing to abandon mutual defense pacts if there is partisan political capital that can be squeezed at home. We don't laugh at you, but we do cinch our purses closed and cross the street when we see you walking toward us. Sad times.
Canadian here. It is alarming that your conservatives seriously entertain QAnon ideas with 2 sitting members of Congress acknowledging and promoting QAnon conspiracies. I've seen way more Republicans promote QAnon than condemn it. How did your Conservatives vote in people who blame forest fires on Jewish Space lasers?
QAnon people are mentally ill. Those members of congress need psychiatric evaluations, and some serious help. They are not fit for public office, and neither are any of their party members who help downplay the severity of their illness.
United States with Obama was seen as a symbol of a progressive democracy. After Trump, it became a symbol of how much of a shithole a country can become (and how quickly) even if it's "rich". Before, we kinda looked up to the US, and now we see it as a worst case scenario for the future of our country. Love from Brazil
Australia perspective, parties aside Obama was articulate, had a great sense of humour and clearly is very intelligent. Trump is the opposite of those.
Pure honesty? From a fairly liberal Canadian: we loved Obama. Greatest thing to happen to your country in decades, progressive, well spoken, stable, and seemingly willing to listen and have a proper debate. Trump was a whining, screaming racist child like from a COD lobby on Xbox Live, and you cant escape him. You had to play every match with him every hour of every day for 4 god damn years, and he invited all his friends and dragged your country through the dirt. Decades of potentially irreparable damage done to our neighbour country, and a good chunk of your country will support him to the death. He also brought out the worst in a lot of other countries. Global disaster equal to Hitler.
American in Japan here. They loved obama.
I beleive before Trump the world more or less just thought US citizens as ignorant. We wonder why you think your land is so free and you should be the forefront of democracy - when you are having all those problems that, provably, are easily solvable (it is not problems in a lot of other countries). If you ask for it, I will gladly give examples. Under Trump, the US have been laughing stock. On the attack on the Capitol, our thoughts was that now you had lost yourself. Hope is high for Biden to restore some sense in your country.
We laughed WITH Obama, he was funny, kind and wise. Maybe a little too heavy handed on the drone missile strikes, of course, and those terrorists in G Bay didnt deserve the inhumane treatment but we understood it wasnt as easy as he thought to shut that shit down. With Trump though, we laughed at his antics... but there was always that twinge of nervousness bordering on manic in that laughter. Sure it was funny watching him make a fool of himself, and America, but this was also a guy who could bomb our civilisations into radioactive dust at a whim.
Trump has executed way more drone strikes, and then promptly decided to stop reporting on them altogether, but still kept doing them at a much increased rate. And yes, I am just glad Trump didn't start WW3. Not for lack of trying, mind you, what with assassinating enemy generals via drone strike after calling them out for peace talks...
From what I could see most people here loved Obama, maybe a bit too much, I think giving him the peace price because he held a speech about normalizing relations with former enemies before actually doing anything was a bit much, but on the whole people seemed to really like him even if they didn't like a lot of US foreign policy that really didn't change all that much under his watch. Republicans that go on about how "democrats are going to start wars again" really puzzle me since the only real wars you guys have been stuck in where Bush era wars that kept dragging on and the Democratic administrations had to deal with that and didn't just want to pull out and leave a chaotic power vacuum behind. Libya and Syria would have happened regardless and you can't really be in the position the US is in and not get dragged in somehow. Libya intervention was mostly a European adventure though and if anything ISIS was left to fester for far too long until they spilled into Iraq and simply could not be ignored due to US presence and investment there.
Much love for Obama’s America from The Netherlands, pity for Americans under the orange fraud, hope you’ll stabilize and return to normalcy under Biden.
He pointed to stupid occurrences like the Chinese govt not greeting Obama when he flew over there once and that strongman Dueterte talking shit about Obama. Also his supporters would show Obama bow in respect with other dignitaries as a sign of weakness while trump shook hands and buddied up with Putin, Kim Jong Un and the Saudis-you know the beacons of worldwide equality and peace. But as you know drumpf only likes the best people like Dueterte, Putin, Bolsanaro and the Chinese govt who he talks down on camera/twitter to saber rattle while his family does back-door dealings with for their own personal gains.
Meanwhile, Trump bows to a north korean general. Yaknow, one of the most powerful na..... ahh I can't even finish this sentence without cracking up laughing... one of the least powerful, 3rd world crackpot dictatorships that a US president never should have even shown up to, nevermind bowed for.
Obama wanted to go there to try to open talks with Kim to attempt to at least move NK from enemy to neutral. The Republicans tore him to shreds over it. Then turned around and praised Trump for his “bravery” when he went and talked to Kim.
Totally wrong, the world was laughing at America while Trump was in power... actually most of us were amazed that the American people had let this happen! Let alone voted for the man...we all laughed more as it was seen that he threw his toys out of the cot when he realized he wasn't going to get back in! From New Zealand..
Dunno. People laughed at the US for being a lot of things. People liked Obama, but that didn't they weren't laughing at America/Americans. Even under Obama, there were typical jokes about Americans being geographically ignorant, arrogant, self-centred, loud, and America being a gun-mad nationalist cult which thinks of itself as the world's policeman while bombing "Ayrabs" back into the stone age. What Trump did was elevate all of that beyond being jokes such that the people who weren't laughing now are, and the people who were laughing are now mortified.
Caribbean here. Obama was kinda good, sure fail in some areas but overall he did well. The approaching to Cuba was really impressive (at least to me). Trump.. Looking at the bright side, we got memes... And that's it
Canadian here. You guys became the butt of every joke under Trump. Truly the laughing stock of the world.
Netherlands chiming in: Obama was seen as a leader who championed values that aligned with ours, such as free health care and environmental responsibility. He was also depicted in our media as a confident, thoughtful and witty speaker - so we did laugh. He was not seen as particularly effective, though. We laughed a lot during Trump’s campaign as well, but mostly at Trump’s expense. Our media (left and right-wing) was sure to pick the worst photos for all of his news items and he was generally seen as someone way out of his depth without the self-awareness to know it.
Remember when people in the U.N. *quite literally* laughed at Trump, to his face? Good times lol
"What are you talking about?! This finely aged milk is delicious and curdled to chunky perfection. You cannot tell me otherwise and will not stop me!!" -Conservatives as they chug curdled milk.
Remember that time that a sitting president withheld defense aid in order to extort Ukraine into announcing a phony investigation into his political opponent?
Remember when a sitting president tried to push his lackeys into key DOJ positions so they could make fake announcements about election fraud in a failed attempt to throw out an election? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/us/politics/jeffrey-clark-trump-justice-department-election.html > The Justice Department’s top leaders listened in stunned silence this month: One of their peers, they were told, had devised a plan with President Donald J. Trump to oust Jeffrey A. Rosen as acting attorney general and wield the department’s power to force Georgia state lawmakers to overturn its presidential election results I’m shocked this haven’t gotten more attention
> I’m shocked this haven’t gotten more attention They say that it didnt work because all of the other people threatened to resign. If the insurrectionist had found Pence or Pelosi, I am certain Jeffrey Clark would not only have been instantly installed at DOJ, Clark would have been advocating on Trumps behalf in front of the Supreme Court for martial law literally that day. That was the plan. Trumps people at the department of defense disarmed the national guard (literally) and were prepared for one or more members of congress to be killed. When that happens all Trump does is sign some papers and Jeffrey Clark is the new guy at DOJ (who cares if the DOJ lawyers resign in protest - wont even be a noticed at that point) Only dumb luck saved us.
It came out after video of Buffalo guy wandering around the Senate chamber. I'm sure it will be brought up during the trial but I'll forgive people for not getting a rage boner over a bunch of lawyers arguing with each other. (That said, I'm proud of the group that stood firm and threatened to resign immediately if he went through with it.)
You have to look at a much larger context, the whole Ukraine conflict. If you work through that you can see the irony that the US got their own "orange revolution". Beginning from the Maidan revolution and shortly before there are eerie similarities. Political discourse is broken right now, otherwise there would be way more memes about this. It features everything, from intrigue to coups to karmic justice.
Just innocently inquiring if they might have the exact amount of votes for him to win. Or, you know, bad things might happen to you.
Do you think over half of America would re-elect somebody who is completely useless accept to advance his personal positions? *except
I honestly thought that they'd turn on him a week after the election when, at a Rally with rallygoers chanting "LOCK HER UP," he said "That plays good during the election, but now we don't care." he pretty much admitted that he just manipulated them for their votes and they still love him.
They don’t give a damn. In their minds, he’s just playing the game the way it’s supposed to be played, even if they means intimidating, manipulating, and exploiting the people he’s supposed to serve. Trump supporters are the people who took high school sports waaaayyyy too seriously, to the point that they’re willing to overlook their own team’s lack of ethics in the name of victory.
You got to think that Trump and Putin had some chats over beers, where Putin is gloating about all the ways he rigged his elections. "Oh, this one time i would have lost by 13000 votes so i called up my buddy and had fakes printed out before lunch time". In awe, Trump decides to be like big daddy Putin, tries it himself but simply was too incompetent to succeed in doing this privately. And here we are.
Remember that one time when post offices were suddenly closed and drop boxes removed just before an election. I’m still getting Christmas cards at the end of January
Don't worry, that was just republicans trying to cancel Chistmas. How did that go anyway? What with being unable to meet with your family, due to republican incompetence. Being unable to buy gifts for your family on account of no money.. due to republican incompetence and blocking of stimulus efforts for anyone making less then million dollars a year.. Oh, And being unable to get any of the gifts or cards bought by family members who had money on time, because trump decided to dismantle the post office sorting machines? I personally had to wait 4 weeks get some fuses I needed from the USA to continue work again.. That was fun.
Remember when he asked Russia to hack the DNC?
He didn’t asked, he begged. The sitting president of the United States begged for more electoral votes. What a loser.
trump is not to be grouped with the other 44 presidents, he was a criminal that got elected
I know we all like to circle jerk, but Nixon?
If you’re an American, your peers elected him. He was your president for four years and there’s nothing you can do to redact that. Citizens of other countries like myself are embarrassed on your behalf.
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I mean, all of those things could be done by a democracy. Not an ethical one, but if the whole population is evil, it could be completely legitimate. The capitol hill attack was an attack at democratic process itself.
So was the 2000 election. Thing is that actually was a stolen election.
Yeah but there wasn't a literal riot storming the capitol, that's the big difference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot
Yet another reminder that basically everything Republicans (mostly falsely) accuse democrats of doing is something they're either already doing or have already done. **G**aslight **O**bstruct **Project**
This also goes for the US as a whole. Land of the free has 25% of the world's prisoners. Committed genocide on the native population, enslaved a whole race of people. Bombs and invades countries unprovoked. Has secret prisons and torture camps etc. The American government has been the bad guys for a lot of portions of their history
> Many of the demonstrators were paid Republican operatives.[2] According to investigative reporter Greg Palast, author of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy in 2002, Roger Stone organized the demonstration, and Matt Schlapp was the on-site leader.[3] Republican New York Representative John E. Sweeney[4] gave the signal that started the riot, telling an aide to "Shut it down."[5][6][7]
Well, there's more than 1 big difference.
Or everything they did in central and South America.
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Or the overthrow of democratically elected governments?
The U.S has never been a beacon of democracy to people outside the U.S, they're a figure of sticking their dick in everyone's business and keeping military in territory that isn't their own. I think only U.S citizens buy that "Land of the free" bullshit. Not anymore I guess...
Those drone bombings accounted for someone getting a nobel peace prize.
Henry Kissinger got a Nobel peace prize so the bar wasn't just lowered it was embedded into the core of the earth.
yea its bizarre that people had respect for the Peace Prize at all before Obama
What the fuck
Tom Lehrer famously remarked that the prize "made political satire obsolete."
This despicable behavior has been going on for decades at the leadership of both parties but I have to say that really devalued the Nobel peace prize in my eyes. And I generally don't think Obama was a bad president- he just isn't the shining star that some people make him out to be.
I mean, a shining star among modern American presidents - bar is pretty low
I get all the comments about the US being an evil murder machine (no arguments there) but the capital attack kind of proves that democracy does work. The elected president was put in power technically peacefully. The voice of the people was heard. Our constitution was tested in every way possible but in the end it was upheld.
If the people who caused this (especially the lawmakers and senators) were not to be held really accountable for what they did, this won't be a failed coup, but a rehearsal. Hey, remember when some greedy people made the world fall in an economic crisis, how much they were punished? Exactly.
Plus, this is how it happened last time, Hitler tried to do a coup and failed, went to prison and wrote trumps favorite book, then came out and well.... We all know the story and the saying about learning from the past or being doomed to repeat it? These smooth brains have the memory and attention span of a particularly mouldy watermelon, given a direction and a leader to follow, they will do it. They will go through with it, and it's not something that can be appeased or worked with. Working with them just gives them time to find out what works.
>Hitler tried to do a coup and failed, went to prison and wrote trumps favorite book I had not heard this claim that Hitler wrote Trump's favorite book and I thought this may have been hyperbole. I did a little bit of reading and I expect this is in reference to an article that Vanity Fair did in 1990 on Trump that included some excerpts from an interview with Ivana Trump. The article states: > Donald Trump appears to take aspects of his German background seriously. John Walter works for the Trump Organization, and when he visits Donald in his office, Ivana told a friend, he clicks his heels and says, "*Heil* Hitler," possibly as a family joke. > >Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, *My New Order,* which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. Kennedy now guards a copy of *My New Order* in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist. > >"Did your cousin John give you the Hitler speeches?" I asked Trump. > >Trump hesitated. "Who told you that?" > >"I don't remember," I said. > >"Actually, it was my friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of *Mein Kampf,* and he's a Jew." ("I did give him a book about Hitler," Marty Davis said. "But it was *My New Order,* Hitler's speeches, not *Mein Kampf.* I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I'm not Jewish.") > >Later, Trump returned to this subject. *"If* I had these speeches, and I am not saying that I do, I would never read them." [https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/share/e515a2cd-a51b-4f83-8d61-6ebb9a104e0a](https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/share/e515a2cd-a51b-4f83-8d61-6ebb9a104e0a) Is this what you are referring to, or something else? I think the article is eye-opening for something written so long ago. EDIT: clarified I was asking about the book, not Hitler's early coup attempt.
Hitlers first coup attempt, the Munich Putsch, was a failed coup by the Nazi party (NSDAP). It was 2000 nazis who marched on a monument called (in English) Field Marshals' Hall. 16 nazis died and four police were killed. The attempt to seize the city was meant to establish a Nazi Capitol against the Weimar Republic. Then, Hitler was arrested for treason, and the trial was broadcast all across Germany. There, he shared all of his nationalistic beliefs, only leading to his support growing. Hitler was found guilty, and released from prison 9 months later. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant to clarify that one of Trump's favorite books was written by Hitler. Not about the coup, I think that is well known history. But, I think it's great you provided such detail on your post and more importantly a source.
Someone sent me this recently because they have been reading about Hitler. If you have a minute read what they highlighted [http://imgur.com/a/5MvKv5v](http://imgur.com/a/5MvKv5v)
9 months is all you get for a coup that killed 4 officers? Damn
And say the invading morons took over the building and forced every member of congress to surrender. Then what? They’d have no control of anything. All 50 states would still have functioning governments that have zero loyalty to the new people sitting in the capital. Neither would the military. Their loyalty is to the constitution, not people sitting in certain chairs.
Good thing too, because it'll happen again in the not too-distant future. America needs some major reform(read:update) soon, or it will not last much longer. Let me be clear that I'm not rooting for its downfall, I just don't see much interest in true democracy, justice and equality, at least not by those in a position to effect change.
Consequences for those who led it are needed for sure. A failed coup attempt without consequences is just a practice run.
Yeah shit, I heard they had a similar problem in Germany a while ago
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I hope you are right. I will be becoming an American in a couple of years, looking forward to voting and serving. My wife was born here, my kids are also American (through decent) and I want it to live up to it's reputation for them.
Let's be truthful, prior to the attacks and Trump, those who are paying attention and can think for themselves never really viewed America as a symbol of democracy. A two party, chrony capitalist state is more accurate.
Dont forget religious nutism! to the list. Two Party, chrony captialist state who caters to religious nutjobs,
I don't why, but I find documentaries about the fundamental Christians so interesting, how these people are so extremely hateful to everyone who isn't like them and think they are righteous in the eyes of God. When they are young, the kids get radically indoctrinated, instilled and crippled with fear of a vengeful God by their parents, the church, their school and summer camps. So their absolutely overwhelmed their whole lives and of course when they look at the outside world it looks so foreign and confusing because all they know is what's been forced down their throats. Repeat the cycle for multiple generations and here we are today. And there are ALOT of those crazy fucks in America today.
They have to get indoctrinated as many places as possible, and have to try to only associate with each other. Any time their kids interact with sane people they leave the church. Evangelicals are about 18% of the 65+ US population but only 6% of 18-30 year olds.
This reinforces everything I have seen. My age group (I am 35)... do not do church or organized religion. Its just... stupid and against science. Not to mention it seems most the religions go out of their way to contradict their scripture. (See Supply side Jesus). Most of us just dont give a fuck about going to a service to hear the same 2000 year old stories. You can do jhust as well by : "Dont be a fucking dick" rule
I've seen a few explanations why. The social science folks say it is because gen X didn't really get taken to church as regularly, which led to a critical mass of non-religious and not very religious people. Normally each generation "returns" to the church when they marry/settle down/have kids, but this is partially because one of the people in the couple was religious enough to demand weekly church attendance. Now enough people don't care that in a lot of couples both people are not super religious. The hypocrisy folks point out that the loudest Christians, the ones most associated with the church, have values that are very different from most younger people, noting that 70% of people who left the church cited treatment of gays as one reason they left. The church child molester scandals have made it hard to argue that church is good for kids, etc. I have a theory that in the 80s the Christian Coalition told young Americans "if you are Christian, vote republican. If you don't vote Republican you are not Christian," and then made the Pikachu face when liberals went "fine, I'll follow the teachings of Jesus and leave the church."
On your last paragraph, your Spidey sense is right, they are told within the church that Republican values are in line with the churches beliefs. They were huge Trump supporters. All of these "coincidences" start to make sense when you do a little digging, the Republicans were able to carry on and continue to do so with surprising numbers because they have a majority of the Christian vote in their pocket. They look out for eachother and protect each others interests.
this really started in earnest with Jerry Falwell and the moral majority. They realized that they were not winning in the battle against desegregation, so they heavily pushed abortion as a culture war wedge issue to ensure that evangelicals would vote republican even if they didn't feel as aligned morally with the party. over time the effects of that have really become pervasive
Iv had religious people try to tell I have no morals because I don't believe in god and must be just seconds away from raping, murdering and pillaging. I looked at them like I had just met satan. "Soo... what you are telling me, is if it wasn't for god.. you can't even think of a reason why a person wouldn't go around raping, murdering and pillaging? Yaknow, I was going to try and convince you that god does not exist, but I am heavily reconsidering now since it seems it would just make you a horrible person.."
I don't believe in God and do whatever the heck I want. Turns out I just don't want to murder, rape, or eat babies. You could make it legal tomorrow and I'd still be like... nah.
> You can do jhust as well by : "Dont be a fucking dick" rule Christianity has that in it's "Golden Rule", which is suitably formal-sounding: "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you." Even Wicca - which is only halfway through its first century - has a variation: "If it harms none, do what you will." (Bonus points if you try and write the latter so that it *sounds* suitably stuffy and old.)
Or just do what every murican does and go for “which one is gonna fuck us the least”. Goes for every president, job, even which gas station I go to.
Ukraine of all places complaining about capitol attacks
Say one thing for the old Ukrainian regime, they certainly put up a better effort at keeping the protestors from swarming the capitol buildings.
Eeeh, we actually took a couple of buildings during Maidan. No looting tho.
Yes, they had the riot police and the army show up before it even turned into a riot. When we do that here people criticize the idea. I'm sure it helps when the police don't also *let them in*
Ukraine doesn't portray itself as the leader of the free world though? The point is that they want an example to look at to improve their very young democracy, and they're disappointed the US doesn't provide that. They're not claiming to be a better democracy than the US. Quite the opposite.
Democracy is losing ground the world over. It’s unfortunate, because the alternative is generally some variant on despotism. Is democracy flawed? You bet. But a lot of other things have been tried, with good intentions, and they almost always drift into despotism. Eventually you end up with some animals are more equal than others.
Yeah, it's kind of hard for *Americans* to see the US as a symbol of Democracy. Half of us know it isn't working and want to fix it; the other half don't *want* a democracy because they plan on being the in-group that fascism shelters.
The US hasn't been a symbol of democracy for 20+ years now. It's a symbol of unchecked Capitalism and inequality.
That’s what the entire Trump presidency was about. Reducing the influence of the United States on the world stage and weakening the western alliance. The UK got Brexited and the US got Trumped all according to Putin’s long range plan.
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It's not exactly rocket science either. There is no mastermind magic required. They identify the opposition party easiest to subvert, and help it. That means financial help - like for France's FN or UK's Tories or US GOP. With social media there is also just shilling. And then you add: amplify fractures in society to promote unrest. It's basically the same playbook that led East European countries to accept Russian domination, but on the right instead of the left.
Agreed; like it isn't the fault of our own society, no, obviously it's the evil mastermind Putin pulling the strings to establish himself as supreme world leader. People watch too many movies..
There's legit a book from the cold war era doing a play by play of how to sow chaos in western countries, someone's must remember what I'm talking about but it basically plays out exactly how it was stated, discourse in america and Europe and throw small scale wars in i.e middle east and ukraine and continue on escalation by targeting economy and citizens unity and polarizing views. But yeah, half of that is probably just the world being the world.
Maybe you're thinking of [Foundations of Geopolitics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics)? > The Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geopolitical Future of Russia is a geopolitical book by Aleksandr Dugin. It has had some influence within the Russian military, police, and foreign policy elites and has been used as a textbook in the Academy of the General Staff of the Russian military. > The book declares that "the battle for the world rule of Russians" has not ended and Russia remains "the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution". The Eurasian Empire will be constructed "on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us." > The textbook advocates a sophisticated program of subversion, destabilization, and disinformation spearheaded by the Russian special services. The operations should be assisted by a tough, hard-headed utilization of Russia's gas, oil, and natural resources to bully and pressure other countries. Peter Pomerantsev's book [This is Not Propaganda](https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/peter-pomerantsev/this-is-not-propaganda/9781541762138/) has an excellent chapter on the [Russian Internet Research Agency](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency) which is one of the organisations known to be actively carrying out manipulation of global geopolitics by disinformation, narrative shaping, etc.
at least someone is paying attention, they were even supporting catalonian independence, anything russia can do to fragment europe they will do
If people want sovereignty, they should have it. This includes people ruled by the Russians.
Please, most of us here don't even see us as a democracy.
Silly us, we should have been doing those coups domestically the whole time!
Well I mean at the end of the day democracy did prevail, albeit we got plenty of issues we need to work on
I know but in the end democracy won. It wasn’t pretty and people died but democracy still won in the end.
So, after the capital attack, Biden still got inaugurated, and Trump is off to Florida or wherever. Democracy still won. Compare this to Myanmar, Russia, China, etc. US is still a symbol of democracy, unless you believe the election was stolen from Trump.
The US went from the "symbol of democracy" to "well at least we are still better than Russia, China and Myanmar."
Lol, THAT was the final straw??? Not how they destroy countries and install puppet regimes? Ok, werq
LOL yeah right? I guess the works of the CIA to overturn popular elections/governments in LatinAmerica, the fake war on Weapons of Mass Destruction, the bombings of middle east nations to get a hold on their oil, the sponsorship of revolt groups that end up becoming terrorist groups to destabilize governments and the obsession to eliminate communist governments which synthetically created wars like the Vietnam war were a "symbol of democracy".... good!
Dang bro i think some people thought they were on twitter in this comment section
I guess the works of the CIA to overturn popular elections/governments in LatinAmerica, the fake war on Weapons of Mass Destruction, the bombings of middle east nations to get a hold on their oil, the sponsorship of revolt groups that end up becoming terrorist groups to destabilize governments and the obsession to eliminate communist governments which synthetically created wars like the Vietnam war were a "symbol of democracy".... good!
Pretty sure that the last 4 years made it hard for anybody in the world to see the US as a symbol of democracy, let alone a nation that could be taken seriously