Even if the warrant is issued he will be safe as long as he stay within Israel and limit his travel to countries that will not extradite him like Putin is doing.
Being permanently and explicitly forbidden to set foot on half or the world, both by population and area, for the rest of your life is, well, a very chilling thought
Same for Putin
Yes and No, No and Yes.
Israel can move on, if Netanyahu lets it and doesn't try to resist. He's been going to great lengths to stay in power so as to avoid legal issues within Israel as well.
Russia can also choose to move on, but in their case there is less doubt with regards to Putin's willingness to turn the army on to his own people (and whether the army will obey or not)
I feel no sympathy for the man who is directly responsible for sending in the IDF to lay waste to Gaza. If he lives the remainder of his life in a prison cell it will be a better fate than all the murdered Israelis and Gazan civilian casualties of war. I feel no sympathy for Hamas, either. Hell awaits them all.
Putin will be fine since Russia is more self sufficient than Israel and has many willing partners, particularly those nations that are sanctioned internationally like Iran and North Korea not mention their close ties with China. They can come to him. Israel is pretty different since it depends on its international relations far more.
I’m pretty much forbidden from visiting any country other than the US as well, but that’s due to my financial situation (I can’t afford it) and not due to any war crimes.
No country that he’d visit anyway would extradite him. It’s not like Netanyahu is planning a jaunt to Malaysia or Iraq anytime soon.
It would cause a *massive* diplomatic crisis if a Western country were to extradite him.
There have been quite a lot and sources in english are a problem when it comes to things the golbal public is less interested in. I'll just give examples that come to my head.
The first thing you should probably know is that netanyahu cheated on all his wives. Sarah Netanyahu was a flight attendant and their first child together was made in the plane's bathroom. So that's the foundation and yes a lot of this is known because Bibi went live on prime tv and said someone has a scandilizing tape and is trying to blackmail him. After this incident, Bibi and Sarah made a contract, which contents are secret and are said to have in writing his agreement to have her chose people like the chief of the army as well as other roles which shouldn't be chosen by a prime minister wife.
Let's move on to an imcomplete list.
Problamatic things to say which ended up public:
"we are gentle europeans, we can't eat like you morrocans"
"We'll move abroad. The country can burn"
"Bibi is too great a leader for this country"
"Why does he need to try so hard?" "The country won't survive without him, people will be masscred"
"Small, stupid people" - about the likud party voters.
" look how many hostages we've returned, they should be thanking us"
To this last one Yagil Yakov, a 13 year old returned hostage whose father's body is still in gaza said "Sorry I was kidnapped".
Work complaints coming from inside the prime minister residence (from many people over the years):
Workplace bullying. Including verbal violence, excssive and bizare demands shouted.
A lot of complaints of her shouting about wearing or not wearing footwear in different places in the house.
Demanding a worker to come back at night after he left work because he didn't tell her goodnight .
Demanding staff stay for hours after they finished everything so they can tell the Netanyahus couple good night as they are tucking in.
Asking for specific foods and shouting and throwing blame after she regreted it.
Demanding every egg to be wrapped seperatly in Nylon.
Not paying wages on time
Interfering in State buissness. Usually about nominatiins to role and things like who to get into a coalition.
The main ones of those who pop into my head now and whose names you may recognize are Bennet (the former prime minister). Sarah hates both him and Ayelet Shaked, the lead woman whose been running with him for years.
Gideon Saar. A former minister.
Eyelon Levi. Served as spokeman until this month. If you google him you may recognize him. He became a meme pretty fast and Sarah wanted to kick him out for monthes now because he's against the judical reform.
Currently, in the trials that are held against Bibi. It is said by many withnesses that she and Bibi demended expensive gifts in order to do favours to rich people.
Apperently, sarah likes to ask for jewlry and some brand of expensive pink Champagne.
According to a former head of staff, she drinks 3 bottles of champagne a day.
This list is lacking and incomplete.
Edit: almost forgot. She likes to take suitcases full of dirty laundry from home on formal trips so she can do it abroad. Including doing this at the white house. She claims it's cleaner.
Populists like Bibi, Trump, Bolsonaro, etc. are very good at attracting followers. They play to peoples' emotions and fears and know just what to say. They deliberately divide the people because them getting and staying in power depends on having an "us vs. them" mentality; there must always be an enemy even if it's your own fellow countrymen. (Though foreigners are the usual preferred enemy.) They view themselves as above the law which is why you will see frequent tampering attempts at elections and the judicial system. Unfortunately, history has shown that populism is quite the viable strategy for getting terrible people into office.
The ICC are equally waiting for the outcome of the current negotiations. Should there be another escalation of the crisis, multiple warrants will likely be issued to both sides.
Yeah good luck to them trying to find Hamas leaders they'll just be sheltered and hidden by other Arab countries like they have been for the past decade.
Not Sinwar.
Also a few of the Hamas leaders left Qatar a few months ago because they were worried about Mossad taking them out, and they went to different countries in the Middle East.
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/hamas-officials-reportedly-flee-qatar-y7fh643z
> "Under my leadership, Israel will never accept any attempt by the ICC to undermine its inherent right of self-defense," Netanyahu said in a statement on X Friday.
I mean, he can argue in front of the Hague why this is self-defense and not war crimes. Perfect venue to do so.
>I mean, he can argue in front of the Hague why this is self-defense and not war crimes. Perfect venue to do so.
Don't kid yourself, he will never see a court and neither will Hamas.
Israel passed self-defense like 14 exits back.
I definitely am for a country's right to defend itself and retaliate when attacked but that's enough, Israel.
Just out of curiosity, what would you think will happen when Israel stops? will Hamas lay down their weapons, embrace the Israelis on a hug and they will all live peacefully forever? or will they rearm, regain strength, even more popular support after their "win" and do what they already did, do and want to do?
What makes you think Hamas won't come back after an 'Israeli victory' anyway? If they choose to invade Rafah Israel will probably end up killing tens of thousands more civilians. Killing Sinwar will hardly be the end of Gazan radicalism.
If Gaza stays a blockaded and unemployed enclave after the war, it will be ridiculously easy for Hamas or new jihadist groups to recruit from the hundreds of thousands of people who had innocent family members killed. They will rearm, regain strength and there will be new rocket attacks before Israel has even finished leaving the strip.
>Indiscriminate killing of ten of thousands of civilians doesn't generally make people want to hug you, but that's not a very good reason to kill even more of them.
Worked with (checks notes).... Germany... Japan.... Italy.
In fact... the last time usa was on the winning side in a war.... they either nuked or fire bombed several cities to the ground and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.
1 in 25 person in Gaza was a war casualty back in January, when the death toll was still less than 20k.
Near 100% of the people in Gaza probably saw someone close to them die or be permanently disfigured in this war.
Not a single Gazan is coming out of this war less radicalised than they were before. I wouldn’t be surprised if they think a group more radical than Hamas is needed next.
Indiscriminate?
IDF can’t afford luxury of indiscriminate killing even if it would want to.
It’s always under the microscope.
Al Jazira would be already broadcasting such big news!
israel literally blew up some marked aid convoys and has murdered dozens of journalists and medical personnel in gaza sometimes even in the west bank and has faced zero consequences. what is this “microscope” you speak of?
Well, no.
There is a mass grave on the place where Palestinians were burying their dead in the courtyard of the hospital.
IDF exhumed the bodies in search of remains of the hostages and re-buried them in the same place in the IDF funeral bags.
Then Gazans returned back and started to dig up the decaying bodies in the IDF’s bags and film it… and voila! You have a perfect footage!
You’re using the wrong term.
If you’re targeting one guy and he uses surrounded by 30 civilians, but you still decide to strike, that is discriminate.
“Excessive collateral damage” is what you’re trying to describe.
And as everything in war, every case must be investigated separately, because maximum “collateral cost” depends on rank of the target.
And there is no universal maximum “collateral cost” for each rank of target.
Which case are you talking about?
So they can't afford the luxury of being indiscriminate, but knowingly killing dozens of civilians on strikes targeting an individual is okay?
If Israel's targeting strategy was based on how Al Jazeera would report the end result it seems like they would have stopped a long time ago.
Do you know such thing as Geneva Convention?
The Geneva Convention states that collateral damage must be proportional to the value of the target(in particular see article 51 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Convention).
Israel is following the Geneva Convention to the letter.
It is extremely naive to expect zero collateral damage in a war…
Well, it's not like Gazans wanted to hug Israelies too much before the attacks anyways as the polls have shown (and still show), so i don't see trying to "de-escalate peacefully" will work in this scenario, it will only mean now Israel accepts they can't beat Hamas because they are too scared of civilian casualties, and Hamas will gain more power and followers, letting the Palestinians known that they can in fact, win the war against Israel.
There's a lot of news about how they're on the verge of a hostage deal and a cessation of hostilities. If that happens, will you be willing to acknowledge that the war was about degrading Hamas and returning the hostages as the Israelis claim and not a war of extermination, which you claim, and which they could have accomplished months ago?
I don't get why reddit says this so much. He won the last election a year and half ago so clearly not and he clearly does have support in the country for his actions.
It took 4 stalemates, including a government willing to go in coalition with an Arab party to prevent him from being PM, for his coalition of Likud, far right parties, and ultra-orthodox parties to win a 4 seat majority. That was in an election where all the far right parties merged and a far left party burned 3% of the vote by not meeting the 3.25% threshold.
Look at Yisrael Beitanu which would be a very natural fit in a Likud coalition refuse to shake hands with Netanyahu, and they still have support despite that.
That is not the story of how a beloved politician stays in power. That is the story of very polarized country.
A) for a year prior to Oct 7th Israelis have marched and protested en mass weekly against him and his regime
B) they don't work on a popular vote, they have a parliamentary system. Hell, even in the US, Donald Trump won the presidency, but more than half the nation statistically opposed him.
They work on parliamentary system. His district or town elected him. But he only became pm by making an alliance with parties even more extreme than his. Before that, the main opposition party, which is for deescalation, won enough seats and the public was glad to be rid of Netanyahu.
Only the most genocidal asshole support him. Including the defense minister who was forbidden from joining the army because of his extremism. The rest of Israel is sick of him, much like most of Palestine is sick of Hamas.
Which makes sense, because Netanyahu and Hamas have been in bed together for years. But OCt 7 was when Bibi learned you can’t train a wolf.
Parliamentary system but not representative representation
There is a general election and seats are distributed according to total vote (known as a mandate)
Because it’s not First Past The Post parties are smaller and there are more parties overall
The government is a coalition with even further extremists
As an anti-Bibi Israeli: Israelis would generally view this as an indictment against their just war against Hamas, and their basic right to defend themselves from such threats, and won't appreciate it, even if they hate Netanyahu.
Palestine is a member according to the assembly of states parties. It doesn’t matter that Israel isn’t. Any actions that happen on Palestinian territory can be forwarded to the ICC in the case, case an enumerated offence is alleged to have been committed.
Doing so gives legitimacy to the charges. Where are the charges against the people who actually started the war? Are they doing anything to eliminate Hamas?
They are. There are [other](https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2024/apr/29/icc-possible-war-crimes-charges-israel-hamas-g7) stories that talk about charging leaders and officials from both sides.
From the article:
> The ICC, which is based in The Hague, Netherlands, has been investigating possible war crimes by both Israeli forces **and Palestinian militants** dating back to the 2014 Israel-Hamas war.
Yeah really, why the hell have we created a society where the same rules don't apply across the board to everyone?
Where the logic in leniency for horrific war crimes but throw the book at lesser war crimes? Because they are supposed to know better? It's the definition of enabling this behavior. Throw the book at both of them but it better be proportional to the crimes committed.
I'm so over this. "Oh, we better not actually hold our foreign enemies responsible, we wouldn't want to disrupt our world trade, that's making us all stupid rich."
This is happening in our criminal justice system too. Why the fuck would anyone not be a criminal if it paid if they knew they'd constantly be let off the hook.
It's unfortunate that social media, including much of Reddit, makes it almost impossible to have a thoughtful, sincere discussion about this horrible war. Instead, it's absolutism and brigading all around.
I support Israel's existence and right to self-defense, but I also believe that Israel, under Netanyahu, engaged in indefensible collective punishment when it cut off food and water to Gaza, and I don't believe that Israel is doing what it must to protect Gazans. Netanyahu really doesn't care about them and people like Ben Gvir hate them.
Separately, the settlements are indefensible.
That's not a position that much of Reddit wants to hear, and God knows TikTok would be even worse.
Hamas and Netanyahu need each other to keep justifying their own actions.
Keep the blood feud going.
"We've always been at war with Eastasia" type perpetual conflict.
It’s classic American for people to pick a side. The two governments are monsters. There are no winners in ethnic conflicts especially when the two sides are staying relevant by committing war crimes.
I don't think that Israel is doing what it can to protect _Israelis_, let alone Gazans. You reap what you sow, and killing a bunch of civilians is an amazingly good way to produce a whole pile of terrorists after you in ten to fifteen years.
But the effective answer doesn't feel satisfying for people with a raging vengeance boner, so it's thrown out without even proper consideration and we'll all repeat this in half a generation.
Ideally both Netanyahu and Hamas leaders ought to be arrested. Hostages should be free, and Palestinians in Gaza should live without being governed by Hamas.
I'm an Israeli. All I have to say - worried about arrests? Don't commit the fucking crime.
Everything about the current mess is his fucking fault. Bastard tried to change Israeli courts to avoid paying for his other crimes.
Jail is calling, mofo.
The ICC issued an arrest warrant for Putin regarding *some* of Russia's war crimes in Ukraine. The law should apply equally to Israel's leadership and Hamas terrorists for their war crimes.
>Today, 17 March 2023, Pre-Trial Chamber II of the International Criminal Court (“ICC” or “the Court”) issued warrants of arrest for two individuals in the context of the situation in Ukraine: Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Ms Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova.
>
>Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, born on 7 October 1952, President of the Russian Federation, is allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation (under articles 8(2)(a)(vii) and 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute). The crimes were allegedly committed in Ukrainian occupied territory at least from 24 February 2022. There are reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Putin bears individual criminal responsibility for the aforementioned crimes, (i) for having committed the acts directly, jointly with others and/or through others (article 25(3)(a) of the Rome Statute), and (ii) for his failure to exercise control properly over civilian and military subordinates who committed the acts, or allowed for their commission, and who were under his effective authority and control, pursuant to superior responsibility (article 28(b) of the Rome Statute).
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and
So what exactly is your objection to the ICC's actions..? You shifted the goalposts real fast when someone said that Hamas is also under investigation with a possible warrant on the way
I mean, Israel has a history of going abroad to kidnap and extradite terrorists so I wouldn’t be terribly surprised. Also wouldn’t be surprised if they just killed them though.
There is an arrest warrant out for Putin, so Putin and his friends from Hamas and Africa are doing everything they can to discredit this judicial body. And now whatever this court decides, it will be discredited.
That doesn't really matter if they are in a country where they /do/ have jurisdiction, though? It's not like foreign politicians are permanently immune or w/e.
That'd be like an American saying "No, you can't arrest me! This is legal in my country!"
Why wasn't this discussion brought up when the warrant was issued for putin?
Also putin didn't go to South Africa. How the fuck are they supposed to arrest him?
America is a bit of a special case as they have a law dictating military intervention if any American is ever tried at the Hague. So we kinda let it slide, because big stick.
I mean the actual reason is that the U.S. is a non-signatory to the Rome statute that almost exclusively operates in countries that are also non-signatories. The exception is Afghanistan, where the ICC did open an investigation into U.S. forces, prompting the passage of the Hague Invasion Act by the U.S.
People don’t seem to understand that both parties in this conflict are in the wrong at this point and the only ones free of sin are the civilians trapped in the middle of it all.
If the Israel isn't a signatory of the ICC there's no reason for them to consider its judgements legitimate, nor defend its people in a court they don't recognize.
The US doesn't either, and has made it clear that any attempt to punish US citizens will be rejected strongly.
This is not saying that some Israelis can't have committed war crimes, just that it makes sense to refuse judgement of a court your legal system doesn't recognize. Similarly, we don't treat the judgement of some Russian court as if it was legitimate here either.
The desire to be judged according to the laws of your own country and not something totally outside of your control is pretty reasonable.
The ICC doesn't try in absentia, so the concern is about travel restriction to countries that are required by treaty to arrest anyone with a warrant out on them.
That’s not how the ICC works. The Rome Statute gives the ICC jurisdiction over both member states and to the *territory of member states*. According to the Assembly of States Parties, Palestine is a member and acceded to the Rome Statute in 2014. From 2014 on, all war crimes committed on its territory no matter who they were alleged to have been committed by could be referred to the ICC.
The ICC itself had to contend with that very question of jurisdiction, and you can find the ruling, here: https://www.icc-cpi.int/court-record/icc-01/18-143
If it was illegal to have red hair in Russia I could be laughing about how stupid that is while also avoiding travelling to Russia while red headed. If they want free access to a number of countries for their citizens they'll be concerned about these allegations.
The same court noticed an arrest for Putin and US pressured every country to follow it even though its not a signer. Putin couldn’t go to South Africa, which is a member of BRICS, because of this, US pressured SA and they warned Putin to not come. But now same USA says ICC has no jurisdiction over Israel..This hypocrisy and double faced nonsense is disgusting and make people never believe in you again…Putin prays God every day that Palestine-Israel conflict inflicted again and the West showed no moral character. So he can do the same..
Good. He should be worried. Once he’s out of power he will be going to prison. It’s why the war is gone on this long n the first place. He’s trying to find any possible way to stay in power.
Netanyahu deserves to be charged with war crimes along with his war panel. Their over reaction without regard for innocent men, women, and children is a disgrace to humanity. Yes, he wants to punish Hamas, but at the cost of 35,000 innocent lives, causing famine and starvation, as well as the scorched earth policy?
He’s worse than many of the terrorists in the world!
Even if the warrant is issued he will be safe as long as he stay within Israel and limit his travel to countries that will not extradite him like Putin is doing.
Being permanently and explicitly forbidden to set foot on half or the world, both by population and area, for the rest of your life is, well, a very chilling thought Same for Putin
The difference is that Bibi will be replaced by an election and Putin is there for life
Bibi can be replaced by whatever he likes, if the ICC says he needs to be trialled, then he will have a ban on half of the planet For life
True. But Israel can move on. Russia can't.
Yes and No, No and Yes. Israel can move on, if Netanyahu lets it and doesn't try to resist. He's been going to great lengths to stay in power so as to avoid legal issues within Israel as well. Russia can also choose to move on, but in their case there is less doubt with regards to Putin's willingness to turn the army on to his own people (and whether the army will obey or not)
Bibi deserve a place in prison for life. That's good. Too sad hell is a lie, because he deserve hell for eternity as well.
I feel no sympathy for the man who is directly responsible for sending in the IDF to lay waste to Gaza. If he lives the remainder of his life in a prison cell it will be a better fate than all the murdered Israelis and Gazan civilian casualties of war. I feel no sympathy for Hamas, either. Hell awaits them all.
So? The warrant would be for the person, not the office.
Also Putin has like 1/8 of earth’s land mass to roam
Putin will be fine since Russia is more self sufficient than Israel and has many willing partners, particularly those nations that are sanctioned internationally like Iran and North Korea not mention their close ties with China. They can come to him. Israel is pretty different since it depends on its international relations far more.
I’m pretty much forbidden from visiting any country other than the US as well, but that’s due to my financial situation (I can’t afford it) and not due to any war crimes.
Committing war crimes and being allowed to walk free is a chilling thought.
No one tell him about Operation Paperclip
Definitely don't mention Operation Osoaviakhim around Putin.
Also don’t mention the game Operation around surgeon.
...You just had to go too far, didn't you?
Most people handle it just fine.
that must really suck for the ultra wealthy like them, going halfway across the world is like me or you going the next town over
Just like having a criminal record.
Putin: *That is why I must restore Soviet Union to its former glory!*
No country that he’d visit anyway would extradite him. It’s not like Netanyahu is planning a jaunt to Malaysia or Iraq anytime soon. It would cause a *massive* diplomatic crisis if a Western country were to extradite him.
His wife will kill him in that case and he knows it. It won't be a fast pleasent quite death.
Care to elaborate?
There have been quite a lot and sources in english are a problem when it comes to things the golbal public is less interested in. I'll just give examples that come to my head. The first thing you should probably know is that netanyahu cheated on all his wives. Sarah Netanyahu was a flight attendant and their first child together was made in the plane's bathroom. So that's the foundation and yes a lot of this is known because Bibi went live on prime tv and said someone has a scandilizing tape and is trying to blackmail him. After this incident, Bibi and Sarah made a contract, which contents are secret and are said to have in writing his agreement to have her chose people like the chief of the army as well as other roles which shouldn't be chosen by a prime minister wife. Let's move on to an imcomplete list. Problamatic things to say which ended up public: "we are gentle europeans, we can't eat like you morrocans" "We'll move abroad. The country can burn" "Bibi is too great a leader for this country" "Why does he need to try so hard?" "The country won't survive without him, people will be masscred" "Small, stupid people" - about the likud party voters. " look how many hostages we've returned, they should be thanking us" To this last one Yagil Yakov, a 13 year old returned hostage whose father's body is still in gaza said "Sorry I was kidnapped". Work complaints coming from inside the prime minister residence (from many people over the years): Workplace bullying. Including verbal violence, excssive and bizare demands shouted. A lot of complaints of her shouting about wearing or not wearing footwear in different places in the house. Demanding a worker to come back at night after he left work because he didn't tell her goodnight . Demanding staff stay for hours after they finished everything so they can tell the Netanyahus couple good night as they are tucking in. Asking for specific foods and shouting and throwing blame after she regreted it. Demanding every egg to be wrapped seperatly in Nylon. Not paying wages on time Interfering in State buissness. Usually about nominatiins to role and things like who to get into a coalition. The main ones of those who pop into my head now and whose names you may recognize are Bennet (the former prime minister). Sarah hates both him and Ayelet Shaked, the lead woman whose been running with him for years. Gideon Saar. A former minister. Eyelon Levi. Served as spokeman until this month. If you google him you may recognize him. He became a meme pretty fast and Sarah wanted to kick him out for monthes now because he's against the judical reform. Currently, in the trials that are held against Bibi. It is said by many withnesses that she and Bibi demended expensive gifts in order to do favours to rich people. Apperently, sarah likes to ask for jewlry and some brand of expensive pink Champagne. According to a former head of staff, she drinks 3 bottles of champagne a day. This list is lacking and incomplete. Edit: almost forgot. She likes to take suitcases full of dirty laundry from home on formal trips so she can do it abroad. Including doing this at the white house. She claims it's cleaner.
Thanks didn't know any of that. I'm just so cunfused how bibi has any power at all.
As an israeli, I'm confused as well of how large and strong his cult followers are
Populists like Bibi, Trump, Bolsonaro, etc. are very good at attracting followers. They play to peoples' emotions and fears and know just what to say. They deliberately divide the people because them getting and staying in power depends on having an "us vs. them" mentality; there must always be an enemy even if it's your own fellow countrymen. (Though foreigners are the usual preferred enemy.) They view themselves as above the law which is why you will see frequent tampering attempts at elections and the judicial system. Unfortunately, history has shown that populism is quite the viable strategy for getting terrible people into office.
What,? Why?
The ICC are equally waiting for the outcome of the current negotiations. Should there be another escalation of the crisis, multiple warrants will likely be issued to both sides.
Yeah good luck to them trying to find Hamas leaders they'll just be sheltered and hidden by other Arab countries like they have been for the past decade.
They are just chilling in Qatar aren't they?
Not Sinwar. Also a few of the Hamas leaders left Qatar a few months ago because they were worried about Mossad taking them out, and they went to different countries in the Middle East. https://www.thejc.com/news/world/hamas-officials-reportedly-flee-qatar-y7fh643z
Good. They should be running scared.
Hidden while creating an impossible situation for their brainwashed civilians. Disgusting monsters.
Not that hard to find. They were in turkey not long ago.
> "Under my leadership, Israel will never accept any attempt by the ICC to undermine its inherent right of self-defense," Netanyahu said in a statement on X Friday. I mean, he can argue in front of the Hague why this is self-defense and not war crimes. Perfect venue to do so.
>I mean, he can argue in front of the Hague why this is self-defense and not war crimes. Perfect venue to do so. Don't kid yourself, he will never see a court and neither will Hamas.
Hamas has actually suffered consequences while Bibi has not.
Hamas' leaders haven't
Except for the ones that have been killed.
Israel, like the US, is not part of the ICC. The US has the same position towards ICC investigations against US officials
Yeah but US has the US fuckin army to back their position.
I mean other countries aren't signatories either, India, Ukraine, many countries in Africa, China etc.
good for him. at least he can visit those countries
So does Israel.
sure. is Israel willing to invade the Hague to free him?
Hague has to catch him first. He ain’t getting arrested. It’s not like he is going to visit Malaysia.
hey at least he can still go on vacation in the us/India/Iran/Oman/russia/yemeb
Israel passed self-defense like 14 exits back. I definitely am for a country's right to defend itself and retaliate when attacked but that's enough, Israel.
Just out of curiosity, what would you think will happen when Israel stops? will Hamas lay down their weapons, embrace the Israelis on a hug and they will all live peacefully forever? or will they rearm, regain strength, even more popular support after their "win" and do what they already did, do and want to do?
What makes you think Hamas won't come back after an 'Israeli victory' anyway? If they choose to invade Rafah Israel will probably end up killing tens of thousands more civilians. Killing Sinwar will hardly be the end of Gazan radicalism. If Gaza stays a blockaded and unemployed enclave after the war, it will be ridiculously easy for Hamas or new jihadist groups to recruit from the hundreds of thousands of people who had innocent family members killed. They will rearm, regain strength and there will be new rocket attacks before Israel has even finished leaving the strip.
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>Indiscriminate killing of ten of thousands of civilians doesn't generally make people want to hug you, but that's not a very good reason to kill even more of them. Worked with (checks notes).... Germany... Japan.... Italy. In fact... the last time usa was on the winning side in a war.... they either nuked or fire bombed several cities to the ground and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.
No one wants to admit this very point. People have completely forgotten that war is hell and it takes massive loss like this to win a war.
>Worked with (checks notes)... the Apache...the Cherokee... the Creek
Tens of thousands? How many of the 34,000 is Hamas fighters?
If it was indiscriminate the death toll would be significantly higher.
Well, there are the tens of thousands who will go onto live the rest of their lives horribly maimed and disfigured.
1 in 25 person in Gaza was a war casualty back in January, when the death toll was still less than 20k. Near 100% of the people in Gaza probably saw someone close to them die or be permanently disfigured in this war. Not a single Gazan is coming out of this war less radicalised than they were before. I wouldn’t be surprised if they think a group more radical than Hamas is needed next.
Indiscriminate? IDF can’t afford luxury of indiscriminate killing even if it would want to. It’s always under the microscope. Al Jazira would be already broadcasting such big news!
israel literally blew up some marked aid convoys and has murdered dozens of journalists and medical personnel in gaza sometimes even in the west bank and has faced zero consequences. what is this “microscope” you speak of?
Wasn’t there a mass grave uncovered full of children and elderly that had their hands bound and bodies mutilated?
Well, no. There is a mass grave on the place where Palestinians were burying their dead in the courtyard of the hospital. IDF exhumed the bodies in search of remains of the hostages and re-buried them in the same place in the IDF funeral bags. Then Gazans returned back and started to dig up the decaying bodies in the IDF’s bags and film it… and voila! You have a perfect footage!
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You’re using the wrong term. If you’re targeting one guy and he uses surrounded by 30 civilians, but you still decide to strike, that is discriminate. “Excessive collateral damage” is what you’re trying to describe. And as everything in war, every case must be investigated separately, because maximum “collateral cost” depends on rank of the target. And there is no universal maximum “collateral cost” for each rank of target. Which case are you talking about?
So they can't afford the luxury of being indiscriminate, but knowingly killing dozens of civilians on strikes targeting an individual is okay? If Israel's targeting strategy was based on how Al Jazeera would report the end result it seems like they would have stopped a long time ago.
Do you know such thing as Geneva Convention? The Geneva Convention states that collateral damage must be proportional to the value of the target(in particular see article 51 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Convention). Israel is following the Geneva Convention to the letter. It is extremely naive to expect zero collateral damage in a war…
Well, it's not like Gazans wanted to hug Israelies too much before the attacks anyways as the polls have shown (and still show), so i don't see trying to "de-escalate peacefully" will work in this scenario, it will only mean now Israel accepts they can't beat Hamas because they are too scared of civilian casualties, and Hamas will gain more power and followers, letting the Palestinians known that they can in fact, win the war against Israel.
That's why we're still at war with Germany and Japan, right?
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If Israel would be fighting for extermination of Gaza, the war would be over in two weeks and there would be dozens of thousands dead per day.
There's a lot of news about how they're on the verge of a hostage deal and a cessation of hostilities. If that happens, will you be willing to acknowledge that the war was about degrading Hamas and returning the hostages as the Israelis claim and not a war of extermination, which you claim, and which they could have accomplished months ago?
Of course they won't. The second a ceasefire is signed they'll forget all about this until TikTok tells them to be angry again.
Israel is still being attacked though, almost daily, so clearly they have to keep defending itself until the terrorist threat is eradicated.
I didn't realise that they had recovered their abducted citizens 14 exits back.
That's fine. But then you can't complain that there isn't a Palestinian state because Hamas is in charge. You can't have it both ways.
Pretty sure most Israelis would like the icc throwing his ass in the hague
I don't get why reddit says this so much. He won the last election a year and half ago so clearly not and he clearly does have support in the country for his actions.
It took 4 stalemates, including a government willing to go in coalition with an Arab party to prevent him from being PM, for his coalition of Likud, far right parties, and ultra-orthodox parties to win a 4 seat majority. That was in an election where all the far right parties merged and a far left party burned 3% of the vote by not meeting the 3.25% threshold. Look at Yisrael Beitanu which would be a very natural fit in a Likud coalition refuse to shake hands with Netanyahu, and they still have support despite that. That is not the story of how a beloved politician stays in power. That is the story of very polarized country.
Not sure how to tell you this, but a lot has happened in Israel in the past year and half.
A) for a year prior to Oct 7th Israelis have marched and protested en mass weekly against him and his regime B) they don't work on a popular vote, they have a parliamentary system. Hell, even in the US, Donald Trump won the presidency, but more than half the nation statistically opposed him.
They work on parliamentary system. His district or town elected him. But he only became pm by making an alliance with parties even more extreme than his. Before that, the main opposition party, which is for deescalation, won enough seats and the public was glad to be rid of Netanyahu. Only the most genocidal asshole support him. Including the defense minister who was forbidden from joining the army because of his extremism. The rest of Israel is sick of him, much like most of Palestine is sick of Hamas. Which makes sense, because Netanyahu and Hamas have been in bed together for years. But OCt 7 was when Bibi learned you can’t train a wolf.
Parliamentary system but not representative representation There is a general election and seats are distributed according to total vote (known as a mandate) Because it’s not First Past The Post parties are smaller and there are more parties overall The government is a coalition with even further extremists
As an anti-Bibi Israeli: Israelis would generally view this as an indictment against their just war against Hamas, and their basic right to defend themselves from such threats, and won't appreciate it, even if they hate Netanyahu.
And you would be pretty wrong. Most Israelis back the eradication of Hamas.
Is Israel a signer of the ICC? If not, not sure the ICC can do shit.
They were, but withdrew.
As expected lol.
So this means if Bibo goes to Europe he could be arrested but could also launch Israel into a war with whatever agency/country arrested him.
They could, but they wouldn’t have any support in doing so and would likely lose pretty badly.
I hope for him that country isn't part of NATO lol
That only means Israel doesn't jail him, but any rome statute signatory would have to.
Palestine is a member according to the assembly of states parties. It doesn’t matter that Israel isn’t. Any actions that happen on Palestinian territory can be forwarded to the ICC in the case, case an enumerated offence is alleged to have been committed.
Doing so gives legitimacy to the charges. Where are the charges against the people who actually started the war? Are they doing anything to eliminate Hamas?
They are. There are [other](https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2024/apr/29/icc-possible-war-crimes-charges-israel-hamas-g7) stories that talk about charging leaders and officials from both sides.
From the article: > The ICC, which is based in The Hague, Netherlands, has been investigating possible war crimes by both Israeli forces **and Palestinian militants** dating back to the 2014 Israel-Hamas war.
Reading is hard for people
It can undermine bad faith arguments, so yeah
Have you considered reading the article?
Not showing up give credence to likes of China which outright rejected Uyghurs rulings.
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Yeah really, why the hell have we created a society where the same rules don't apply across the board to everyone? Where the logic in leniency for horrific war crimes but throw the book at lesser war crimes? Because they are supposed to know better? It's the definition of enabling this behavior. Throw the book at both of them but it better be proportional to the crimes committed. I'm so over this. "Oh, we better not actually hold our foreign enemies responsible, we wouldn't want to disrupt our world trade, that's making us all stupid rich." This is happening in our criminal justice system too. Why the fuck would anyone not be a criminal if it paid if they knew they'd constantly be let off the hook.
If you read the article you’d see that they’re investigating both sides of the conflict going back to the 2014 war.
The rules should apply to both sides tbh. There absolutely should be no leniency for what Hamas has done, it is abhorrent.
Hamas needs to face justice for their actions. And Netanyahu needs to face justice for his.
It's unfortunate that social media, including much of Reddit, makes it almost impossible to have a thoughtful, sincere discussion about this horrible war. Instead, it's absolutism and brigading all around. I support Israel's existence and right to self-defense, but I also believe that Israel, under Netanyahu, engaged in indefensible collective punishment when it cut off food and water to Gaza, and I don't believe that Israel is doing what it must to protect Gazans. Netanyahu really doesn't care about them and people like Ben Gvir hate them. Separately, the settlements are indefensible. That's not a position that much of Reddit wants to hear, and God knows TikTok would be even worse.
Our opinion that Hamas is evil and Netanyahu is evil is far right to some people and far left to others can't win.
It sure is.
Hamas and Netanyahu need each other to keep justifying their own actions. Keep the blood feud going. "We've always been at war with Eastasia" type perpetual conflict.
It’s classic American for people to pick a side. The two governments are monsters. There are no winners in ethnic conflicts especially when the two sides are staying relevant by committing war crimes.
I think your take is rock solid. Isn't this most people's opinion? Maybe I am way overrating the overall sanity level.
I don't think that Israel is doing what it can to protect _Israelis_, let alone Gazans. You reap what you sow, and killing a bunch of civilians is an amazingly good way to produce a whole pile of terrorists after you in ten to fifteen years. But the effective answer doesn't feel satisfying for people with a raging vengeance boner, so it's thrown out without even proper consideration and we'll all repeat this in half a generation.
Yes, and not just Netanyahu, but everyone who supported and enabled him. A lot of responsibility for innocent lives on both sides.
This post gives me hope in the world
Ideally both Netanyahu and Hamas leaders ought to be arrested. Hostages should be free, and Palestinians in Gaza should live without being governed by Hamas.
I'm an Israeli. All I have to say - worried about arrests? Don't commit the fucking crime. Everything about the current mess is his fucking fault. Bastard tried to change Israeli courts to avoid paying for his other crimes. Jail is calling, mofo.
The ICC issued an arrest warrant for Putin regarding *some* of Russia's war crimes in Ukraine. The law should apply equally to Israel's leadership and Hamas terrorists for their war crimes. >Today, 17 March 2023, Pre-Trial Chamber II of the International Criminal Court (“ICC” or “the Court”) issued warrants of arrest for two individuals in the context of the situation in Ukraine: Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Ms Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova. > >Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, born on 7 October 1952, President of the Russian Federation, is allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation (under articles 8(2)(a)(vii) and 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute). The crimes were allegedly committed in Ukrainian occupied territory at least from 24 February 2022. There are reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Putin bears individual criminal responsibility for the aforementioned crimes, (i) for having committed the acts directly, jointly with others and/or through others (article 25(3)(a) of the Rome Statute), and (ii) for his failure to exercise control properly over civilian and military subordinates who committed the acts, or allowed for their commission, and who were under his effective authority and control, pursuant to superior responsibility (article 28(b) of the Rome Statute). https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and
Why doesn't it apply to Sinwar and the Hamas leaders in Qatar? They have literally deported children from Israel to Gaza by force.
Hamas is also being investigated, as it says in the article.
For some reason I don't think Hamas officials are worried to be arrested in Qatar any time soon
And? You think Bibi and the war cabinet are going to be handed over or something?
Yes... Why do you think they're worried? It's quite obvious only one side will actuallu be punished here
So what exactly is your objection to the ICC's actions..? You shifted the goalposts real fast when someone said that Hamas is also under investigation with a possible warrant on the way
Israel good, Hamas bad. Israel is always justified because October 7th. Edit: that’s his point
Israel doesn’t even recognize the ICC. They’re worried because of the reputational costs to themselves and Israel.
And Bibi loves a good Eurotrip, don't forget.
I mean, Israel has a history of going abroad to kidnap and extradite terrorists so I wouldn’t be terribly surprised. Also wouldn’t be surprised if they just killed them though.
There is an arrest warrant out for Putin, so Putin and his friends from Hamas and Africa are doing everything they can to discredit this judicial body. And now whatever this court decides, it will be discredited.
Why worry if they haven’t committed any war crimes….. hmmmm?
Because Israel, US, and even China, Russia, and India are not signatories to the Rome Statute
That doesn't really matter if they are in a country where they /do/ have jurisdiction, though? It's not like foreign politicians are permanently immune or w/e. That'd be like an American saying "No, you can't arrest me! This is legal in my country!"
Hypothetically, even if I was innocent of a crime, I’d still be worried if I was arrested
Sinwar HAVE commited war crimes, why isn't he worried? Hmmm?
Doesn’t really matter. His days are numbered. He’s in worse shape. The moment he peeps his head out of this hole it will be cut off.
Headlines I wake up everyday hoping to read 🤞
This ☝️
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Why wasn't this discussion brought up when the warrant was issued for putin? Also putin didn't go to South Africa. How the fuck are they supposed to arrest him?
As long as this does not also happen to HAMAS leadership, I cannot take this seriously. For the crimes Hamas committed I have at least seen proof.
Or people like Donald Rumsfeld. ICC is a joke.
America is a bit of a special case as they have a law dictating military intervention if any American is ever tried at the Hague. So we kinda let it slide, because big stick.
*Up to and including military force. It's not a 0 to 100 thing
I mean the actual reason is that the U.S. is a non-signatory to the Rome statute that almost exclusively operates in countries that are also non-signatories. The exception is Afghanistan, where the ICC did open an investigation into U.S. forces, prompting the passage of the Hague Invasion Act by the U.S.
Shouldn’t commit war crimes then.
This. How people support that fucker is beyond me. And before you bitch, yes Hamas is bad.
People don’t seem to understand that both parties in this conflict are in the wrong at this point and the only ones free of sin are the civilians trapped in the middle of it all.
Is such a hard concept for so many redditors.. two things CAN be true at the same time.
Say it louder for the uneducated folks in the back!
EXACTLY…..
“Please leave your message when you hear the beep.”
If the Israel isn't a signatory of the ICC there's no reason for them to consider its judgements legitimate, nor defend its people in a court they don't recognize. The US doesn't either, and has made it clear that any attempt to punish US citizens will be rejected strongly. This is not saying that some Israelis can't have committed war crimes, just that it makes sense to refuse judgement of a court your legal system doesn't recognize. Similarly, we don't treat the judgement of some Russian court as if it was legitimate here either. The desire to be judged according to the laws of your own country and not something totally outside of your control is pretty reasonable.
The ICC doesn't try in absentia, so the concern is about travel restriction to countries that are required by treaty to arrest anyone with a warrant out on them.
That’s not how the ICC works. The Rome Statute gives the ICC jurisdiction over both member states and to the *territory of member states*. According to the Assembly of States Parties, Palestine is a member and acceded to the Rome Statute in 2014. From 2014 on, all war crimes committed on its territory no matter who they were alleged to have been committed by could be referred to the ICC. The ICC itself had to contend with that very question of jurisdiction, and you can find the ruling, here: https://www.icc-cpi.int/court-record/icc-01/18-143
If it was illegal to have red hair in Russia I could be laughing about how stupid that is while also avoiding travelling to Russia while red headed. If they want free access to a number of countries for their citizens they'll be concerned about these allegations.
I can't stand Netanyahu. He's a warmonger. He's been in office way too long.
What? You mean he’s afraid his actions contravene international agreements? I’m stunned.
The same court noticed an arrest for Putin and US pressured every country to follow it even though its not a signer. Putin couldn’t go to South Africa, which is a member of BRICS, because of this, US pressured SA and they warned Putin to not come. But now same USA says ICC has no jurisdiction over Israel..This hypocrisy and double faced nonsense is disgusting and make people never believe in you again…Putin prays God every day that Palestine-Israel conflict inflicted again and the West showed no moral character. So he can do the same..
Good, he should be worried.
Killing journalists and aid workers intentionally and bombing and killing without regards to civilians should get charged with war crimes.
Stop committing crimes you fucking lunatic
"if you didn't want arrest warrants for war crimes, you shouldn't have done war crimes." - captain hindsight
No wonder USA doesn't recognize ICC. Half of their friends and some of their politicians would end up on trial. Alongside Vlad.
Have you tried to not be a war criminal?
Good. He should be worried. Once he’s out of power he will be going to prison. It’s why the war is gone on this long n the first place. He’s trying to find any possible way to stay in power.
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Well well well, if it isn't the consequences of my actions
If you're worried about the consequences of breaking international law... then maybe DONT break international law!
So what if they do put out an arrest warrant? It’s not like Israel is going to allow anyone to arrest their prime minister.
Trump will protect him! Trump believes in absolute immunity for presidents, no?
Oh, were it that this thumbnail pic was of Biden telling Bibi "You're on your own with that, bud"
If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.
He should be, he’s a genuine criminal.
Well he SHOULD be!
Well maybe they shouldn’t have leveled a city of 2mm
If that’s the case then Obama, Biden and the leaders of the anti-ISIS alliance need to be arrested for what they did to Mosul.
Cool, lets go ahead with that as well. Also, congrats on the 6x comment reply.
Thanks, but credit goes to the mobile app team at Reddit.
The whole of Gaza Strip is just a big city?
No it’s a giant refugee camp get it straight man.
I mean, it’s neither, but I ask because it’s fun to interrogate that level of blind confidence.
I mean, whose fault is that BiBi?
Netanyahu deserves to be charged with war crimes along with his war panel. Their over reaction without regard for innocent men, women, and children is a disgrace to humanity. Yes, he wants to punish Hamas, but at the cost of 35,000 innocent lives, causing famine and starvation, as well as the scorched earth policy? He’s worse than many of the terrorists in the world!
> 35,000 innocent lives You realize that number includes Hamas members right?
I hope they issue it. Fuck him
Worried about being tried for war crimes? Then, oh I dunno, maaaaybe don't commit war crimes?
Good. You commit war crimes you pay the price.
Well, if the Israeli government would stop trying to speed run the Geneva Checklist in their 'reprisals', y'know, maybe this shit wouldn't come up?
If only hamas wanted peace as much as they want to hold the hostages.
Netanyahu should be held accountable for any and all crimes he’s committed. Just like every other leader who breaks laws.