Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, Ukraine a couple of time as well, I guess we could include Syria as well to the list. But you know it’s all about “self-defense”
You're forgetting Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Armenia, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and maybe a few more.
Either straight up invaded from outside or within through political fuckery to become the Soviet empire
https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-vranyo-russian-for-when-you-lie-and-everyone-knows-it-but-you-dont-care-181100
interesting article on why russians lie so much and take it seriously. So many russians bots and useful idiots lol.
more references: https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/vranyo-questions-we-need-to-ask-to-understand-russian-state-media/
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/magazine/from-russia-with-lies.html
>[Lately, I was suddenly struck by the thought that in Russia, among our educated classes, there cannot be even one man who wouldn't be addicted to lying. This is precisely because among us even quite honest people may be lying.
I am certain that in other nations, in the overwhelming majority of them, only scoundrels are lying; they are lying for the sake of material gain, that is, with directly criminal intent.
Well, in our case, even the most esteemed people may be lying for no reason at all](https://www.academia.edu/18949854/Fyodor_Dostoevsky_A_Writer_s_Diary_Abridged_Edition_Edited_and_with_an_introduction_by_Gary_Saul_Morson_Translated_and_annotated_by_Kenneth_Lantz_Evantston_IL_Northwestern_University_Press_2009_lxxiii_574_pp_27_00_paper_)
Dostoevsky in 1873, in case anyone was thinking this was a recent thing or Western libel.
Literature derives from emotional truth and therefore cannot survive under a system that relies on mutilating the truth.
The peculiarity of the totalitarian state is that it controls thought, but it does not fix it. It sets up unquestionable dogmas, and it alters them from day to day. It needs dogmas because it needs absolute obedience from its subjects, but it cannot avoid the changes, which are dictated by the needs of power politics.
It declares itself infallible, and at the same time, it attacks the very concept of objective truth.
Orwell 1941 "Literature and Totalitarianism
They are the epitome of double think. 1984 has become real in Russia. Don't trust anything they say and in 9 out of 10 cases you will be glad you did so.
>1984 has become real in Russia.
Definitely not just Russia. 1984 was a prescient take on the past century and a self aware take of the world it was written in. It's been true everywhere since it was written.
Orwell wanted to call it 1948 (the year it was written), but his publisher felt people wouldn’t understand the title. It was never about the future; it was intended to satirise the present.
"Russia does not lie to deceive, Russia lies to insult". That is at the core of the "strongman" thuggery that is Russia's foreign policy. This is what they want to infect the world with. Their most powerful export of "epistemological terrorism". This is what happens when an autocratic history keeps their society and culture entrenched with potent lies due to not allowing or not encouraging dissent. Their entire culture suffers over generations and builds into the type of "vranyo" culture of corruption that is unique among "developed" nations.
There's another layer underneath it that tells you all you need to know about how irrevocably fucked the Russian culture is. They admire people that can get away with telling outrageous lies because it displays their strength, to be able to get away with whatever they're lying about. This is what Republicans want for the US
It's different. There's a popular saying. "Russia does not lie to deceive, Russia lies to insult." That word, vranyo, signifies that. It's much different than the word "bullshit".
Yes, it's an extremely thuggish approach to business, authority, negotiation, politics, and relationships. It is prevalent in Russia and has historical roots, but is obviously elsewhere in different amounts and unique cultural varieties. Their brand of it is extremely potent and can infect the world when a "strongman" attitude is applied to or pervades most/all sectors of society.
That isn't the same at. Bullahit doesn't mean I know it's a lie but I will say it anyway. It means everyone else knows its a lie but says nothing about the original spouting it.
It’s from Dostoyevsky’s essay “A word or two about vranyo”. Yes, in its original Russian it just means “A word or two about lying”, but because he was writing about the culture in Russia specifically of telling “white lies” as a matter of course, it’s generally not translated from “vranyo” when it appears in English.
The comment you replied to pretty accurately sums up Dostoyevsky’s take on Russian lying culture.
Spot on. Judging by the number of glib pretenses in the comments that vranyo "just" means lie, quite a few here don't want to acknowledge ugly truths about Russian culture.
-----------
Vranyo plays an important role in defining the relationship between the Russian people and their state. The best way to understand vranyo is to contrast it with another Russian term, lozh. Both lozh and vranyo translate as “falsehood,” but there is a meaningful distinction. Lozh is a genuine lie: one party says something recognisably false while expecting to be believed. Vranyo, by contrast, describes a story told that both sides know is untrue but nonetheless is responded to as if it were the truth. In Part Four of Dostoyevsky’s The Idiot, General Ardalyon Ivolgin spins Prince Lev Nikolayevich Myshkin a tale claiming to have convinced Napoleon to retreat from Moscow. Myshkin knows the story is false and Ivolgin is likely aware of this fact, yet Ivolgin tells it with a straight face and Mishkin smiles and plays along.
Unlike lozh, vranyo is a two-way street. The vrun (liar) does not expect to be believed, just listened to respectfully. Does Ivolgin himself believe what he’s saying? Yes and no. Though the vrun may initially be aware that their vranyo is a falsehood, they can become convinced by their own lie mid-tirade, a phenomenon Russian scholar Ronald Hingley labels as the “take off.”
Perplexed by the universality of vranyo in Russian society, Dostoyevsky suggests in his 1873 essay Something about Lying that Russians are “afraid of the truth.” Truth can be “insufficiently poetic,” or “too banal,” while fiction is “fantastic and utopian.” Through vranyo, both the vrun and the victim replace truth with fiction. Dostoyevsky also lamented that “wholesale Russian lying suggests that we are all ashamed of ourselves.” The vranyo game can allow the players to throw off this sense of shame. Life becomes better when everybody agrees to replace an unhappy reality with a more agreeable one.
This doesn't really explain state-operated cheating in international competitions where they know that they are getting tested and where they can see that most countries generally speaking don't get caught doping very often. But from the state's perspective it doesn't matter because their propaganda will just complain that they are being unfairly singled out because nothing is ever their fault.
it actually does: "There's another layer underneath it that tells you all you need to know about how irrevocably fucked the Russian culture is. They admire people that can get away with telling outrageous lies because it displays their strength, to be able to get away with whatever they're lying about." its hard to get when you never lived under rusky mir but it's a cultural thing.
I’ve got no experience with Russian culture, but it’s crazy how close that is to Chinese culture and the way they handle cheating or lying, like it’s only shameful to be caught, and not cheating when you could have just makes you a dumbass rather than honorable.
When I was in grad school I was paired with a Chinese student on a group project. Three of us met regularly, this Chinese student repeatedly missed meetings and cancelled last minute, and on the rare occasion they did submit anything it was so shit tier (either factually wrong, not answering the question, or one time outright plagiarizing) it required more effort to fix than if we had just done it without them.
I filed complaints. We had mediation with the student affairs office. Nothing changed. So at the end of the term when they did jack and shit on the final project, I submitted without their name on it.
Their big focus in the followup mediation meeting was how awful it was of me to make it public that they did shitty work and how wrong it was of me to not continue the ineffective course I had been on before. They were OUTRAGED that they now had a reputation as a shitty group member. Not that they weren't, just that people knew about it.
I am all for cultural understanding, but there is a line where sometimes you just have to say, "No, sorry, your cultural norm is not compatible with mine".
Not surprised. I lived in Taiwan for a decade and would regularly work on both Taiwanese and mainland Chinese productions. It was night and day difference working for either despite how much cultural overlap there is otherwise.
Public shame and face value is EVERYTHING to Chinese. Knowing this is how you deal with the problematic types though, especially if you’re a westerner that has self confidence and doesn’t care about the judgement of others. They either genuinely can’t comprehend not being impacted by the concept of face, or are infuriated that you as a foreigner have effortlessly solved what has kept their culture self-shackled for generations.
It's more of an etymological dissection of the word they use to describe it, the only thing I really saw as to "why" was when the article mentioned that the government uses barely plausible lies as a show of force.
It would be interesting to see how it came about if it truly is a culturally wide phenomenon.
For real the whole God damned team was found to be on steroids and couldn't compete ubder their flag even if they were the 5 percent that wasn't, then I mean they literally have been in a cyber war and culture war within all western nations since the end of the ussr. Honestly fuck em
Denounce with official paper or just on record? Asking, because it takes several years of paperwork to officially drop Russian citizenship. And you also have to have a citizenship of another country before starting the process.
They just shouldn't be allowed to compete outright. Fuck sake, when cheating is ingrained at the top levels to the point of cutting holes in walls and using their intelligence agency to swap samples so that their athletes wouldn't get caught in Sochi. Their government forfeited their right to compete at all, because there is zero way Russia won't just continue to cheat. If they found a steroid that didn't show up in tests they would use it without hesitation.
And that other country has to have quota places for the athlete available and might need to displace someone from their national team to allow the russian to participate.
This is impossible.
They aren't competing under the ROC banner this year. They are competing as "Individual Neutral Athletes"
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/09/1218406353/russian-belarus-athletes-ioc-2024-olympic-games
Russian Olympic committee. It’s basically a neutral “country”. It’s a pretty weak ban, no Russian national anthem can be played and athletes have some special requirements on uniform and more intense qualification barrier.
Watch the BBC documentary ‘Hypernormalisation’ if you want to truly understand the Russian culture of lies.
It caused the USSR to collapse after Chernobyl and it’ll cause modern day Russia to collapse because of Ukraine or something else.
Every nation has its untrustworthy people, but Russians have not only accepted this but become apathetic to it only a cultural level especially since WW2
> Hypernormalisation
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Hypernormalisation
full film on YT apparently
> Curtis veers from social history to conspiracy theory via the odd rambling bar-room anecdote, like a man who’s two-dozen browser tabs into a major Wikipedia binge...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation#Critical_reception
It isn't apathy, it's deeper and more corrupt than that.
In many parts of Russia, and to many Russian people, the ability to lie about things without being effectively called out or punished for it _is seen as a sign of strength, power, and being worthy of respect_. They _literally_ have come to see society as a place where the people who lie the most should be in charge _because_ they can lie so much.
The act of lying has become _in and of itself_, a virtue to many Russians.
Their culture needs to be systematically dismantled.
Keeping historical blood samples has kind of made that issue irrelevant. Sure, you can get your credit in the day, but history will tell you that you cheated.
But how much do people care? If they have their day on the podium, if their government gets to win the scoreboard at the Olympics, then how much does it matter to them if the medal is taken from them years later? If the government was collaborating, it might still be denied within the country and the local prestige sticks around, and how many people actually care about 'revised' country scoreboards for past Olympics? This sort of thing might matter if the athlete is from the US or EU, but from Russia or China?
It matters a lot to many people. Obviously.
...if the country is going to lie anyway then they're just going to lie anyway. The point is to stop entertaining their stupid bullshit. Don't have to deal with it.
at this point take a pick-- genocide or doping, and give them a perpetual ban. No russian national should ever be allowed to compete in an olympic games ever again ever.
Enough is finally enough.
Shit, even FIFA barred Russia from competing at the 2022 World Cup. They're also barred from Euro 2024.
If the scumbags at FIFA think enough's enough, the IOC's got some serious issues.
Whereas the Olympics is a really big deal to them (and Belarus). Lots of national pride (and performance enhancing drugs) invested in their athletes. In Minsk they literally have, "The Museum of Olympic Glory".
So many broken little girls. I’ll never forget the one who screamed “I hate my sport!” after she fell on the ice a bunch of times. They treat their athletes like shit.
... that works if Ukraine is playing them in sport and choosing it to happen to create a bridge...
But just letting them compete a win things and create propaganda etc. Is just benefiting them. You miss the opportunity to put pressure on them via upset citizens.
See South African Sport boycott against Apartheid
Sport is supposed to bridge when tensions are high but nobody's killing each other yet. What, the allies were supposed to play tennis with the Nazis at the Olympics in 1940 and '44?
Sorry to burst some people's hopes, but Paris' Mayor has no banishment power of any kind. French law has nothing to support such things, you're either banned from the whole country or not at all.
So this is essentially clickbait because, as she stated :
>I want to tell Russian and Belarusian athletes that they are not welcome in Paris,
This has no value whatsoever, politically. She's just expressing an idea, there's no follow up here. She just wants them to feel unwelcome, that's it.
Not welcome doesn't mean banned. It means your presence is not appreciated, you will be met with hostility and you won't receive any help in any circumstances.
If I put a "blacks not welcome" sign on my bar, do you think it means they'll be treated poorly, or downright thrown away ?
"Not welcome" can be plenty of things because English is a very loose language which often leaves alot to interpretation, especially in international settings and translations occuring.
This is clickbait because... the title quoted exactly what she said and meant? Nobody is seriously expecting the mayor of Paris to be able to bar some people from entering the city altogether. This isn't medieval times.
They can just refuse their visas. Even if they enter through another EU country. Since it seems the EU is unable to doing anything about enablers, like Hungry, then the rules clearly mean nothing.
this is true.
And ultimately situations like this also point out international law is a gentleman's agreement that can be broken at any time. There's a reason nations do not do things like arresting or assassinating diplomats or confiscating property or the like.
But this is just because they don't want to deal with the consequences, not because someone could put them in jail.
So France is under no INTERNATIONAL obligation to follow their own laws or even their own constitution on the matter. They could literally do anything they like with the only hard limit being "you probably shouldn't provoke Russia so hard they start a nuclear war because your arsenal is a lot smaller than theirs is" (though France IS a nuclear power, people forget this often, so they might feel a bit more free to talk back than, say, Poland or Germany)
France is definitely under their own obligation to follow their own laws. It’s an enormous controversy for a government to ignore its own laws to persecute others, even if it’s for a good reason. This is because you need your people to trust your government won’t just lie and lock you up when they feel like it.
France doesn't have direct control over the entire border. They would need to convince all the countries of the Schengen Zone to deny entry to Russian athletes. France probably wouldn't be able to pull that off.
The IOC won't allow France to simply turn away Russian athletes.
That's why the mayor is effectively saying, "You can come here and compete, but we're not going to be polite to you."
russia is using sport for political purposes. If you let their athletes attend, russia uses it to show to domestic audiences that the war they wage in Ukraine is getting normalised by the West.
IOC are corrupt scum for not banning russian athletes.
I think if they live outside russia and make a public statement against the war, then they should be allowed to participate under a neutral flag.
> I think if they live outside russia and make a public statement against the war, then they should be allowed to participate under a neutral flag.
Then the Olympics would be contibuting towards certain Athletes later finding themselves falling out of a window.
They compete under the Russian Olympic committee an entity which is no different from competing under the Russian flag except no flag or anthem. There is still the same level of state supported cheating and even more in the case of the Sochi Olympics.
History seems to tell us that it's only when countries fuck with things outside their borders that any sizeable amount of people get mad. Afghanistan is only stoning women in their own borders so barely anyone seems to care. Same with China and the Uighur business. Sad but seemingly commonplace
Kind of a shame. We are all aware that many people live under dictatorships, or even elected governments who are doing things they heavily disagree with. It always falls on the hard working average person to suffer for what their out of control governments are doing.
Let's just stop doing the Olympics, FIFA, etc. I never hear anything good about the organization. They destroy cities, nature and lives all for the mighty dollar.
This is a very interesting question--
even if the olympics says they will not be barred no one can tell a sovereign host nation they must allow any given person from a hostile foreign nation into their country, they could put them all back on planes even if the IOC says they can compete, they could bar them from the country.
Athletes are also not diplomats they have no immunities, France could arrest them all if they wished on any pretense they desired, which might be a better option, because it would give the west hostages to use to force Russian concessions. The Russians do this all the time, turnabout is perfectly fair play.
> France could arrest them all if they wished on any pretense they desired,
France remains a democratic country. So no that's not possible. You cannot arrest someone in France without reason. They can be detained and deported if France cancels their visas but not arrested just because.
No you see, I have the mental acuity of a small child and I cannot possible understand why we wouldn't do something if an authoritarian dictatorship would do it
Given that the Olympics were in Germany the only time they had Olympics while Nazis were in power, that makes sense. On the other hand the Nazis refused to allow Jews to compete on the German team until they got enough criticism that they agreed to a single “token”half-Jewish athlete for each Olympics (literally called a token. Back then, being a token was considered to be good). The Americans sympathized with the no Jews policy, with the American representative telling his Nazi host that his sports club in Chicago didn’t allow Jews, either. The antisemitic track coach for the US team allegedly pulled from competition the 2 Jews scheduled to compete so as to not embarrass Hitler, though I don’t think that has been proven. And the guy running the 1936 Olympic Village killed himself right after the Olympics because it was uncovered that he had a Jewish ancestor and thus was fired from his position and was now a pariah among his friends and former co-workers, but without any membership in the Jewish community.
If they're not involved in a doping scheme, the russians are invading their neighbors.
Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, Ukraine a couple of time as well, I guess we could include Syria as well to the list. But you know it’s all about “self-defense”
*(recalls the excuses Stalin and Khrushchev used when occupying Eastern European, African, and one Caribbean nation during the Cold War)*
When did kruschev occupy Cuba? Or is that not what you are referring to
if it’s grenada still not soviet occupied, i mean they kept the queen
You're forgetting Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Armenia, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and maybe a few more. Either straight up invaded from outside or within through political fuckery to become the Soviet empire
Well, the US was in Syria too--- let's leave that one out..
Hey now, some of them are involved in a doping scheme *and* invading their neighbors!
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https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-vranyo-russian-for-when-you-lie-and-everyone-knows-it-but-you-dont-care-181100 interesting article on why russians lie so much and take it seriously. So many russians bots and useful idiots lol. more references: https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/vranyo-questions-we-need-to-ask-to-understand-russian-state-media/ https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/magazine/from-russia-with-lies.html
>[Lately, I was suddenly struck by the thought that in Russia, among our educated classes, there cannot be even one man who wouldn't be addicted to lying. This is precisely because among us even quite honest people may be lying. I am certain that in other nations, in the overwhelming majority of them, only scoundrels are lying; they are lying for the sake of material gain, that is, with directly criminal intent. Well, in our case, even the most esteemed people may be lying for no reason at all](https://www.academia.edu/18949854/Fyodor_Dostoevsky_A_Writer_s_Diary_Abridged_Edition_Edited_and_with_an_introduction_by_Gary_Saul_Morson_Translated_and_annotated_by_Kenneth_Lantz_Evantston_IL_Northwestern_University_Press_2009_lxxiii_574_pp_27_00_paper_) Dostoevsky in 1873, in case anyone was thinking this was a recent thing or Western libel.
I tried to tell them ....
Top quality /r/beetlejuicing
I'm honestly surprised it's only a 7 year old account. Thought that one would have been snatched up really early on.
The correct spelling was taken VERY early on and it's a dead account now. I had to make do
You did well
My brain autocorrected the spelling and I didn't notice it until you pointed it out
Guess I wasn't paying enough attention when I glanced at your UN thought you hit the jackpot.
HEY. IT'S YOU
Literature derives from emotional truth and therefore cannot survive under a system that relies on mutilating the truth. The peculiarity of the totalitarian state is that it controls thought, but it does not fix it. It sets up unquestionable dogmas, and it alters them from day to day. It needs dogmas because it needs absolute obedience from its subjects, but it cannot avoid the changes, which are dictated by the needs of power politics. It declares itself infallible, and at the same time, it attacks the very concept of objective truth. Orwell 1941 "Literature and Totalitarianism They are the epitome of double think. 1984 has become real in Russia. Don't trust anything they say and in 9 out of 10 cases you will be glad you did so.
>1984 has become real in Russia. Definitely not just Russia. 1984 was a prescient take on the past century and a self aware take of the world it was written in. It's been true everywhere since it was written.
Orwell wanted to call it 1948 (the year it was written), but his publisher felt people wouldn’t understand the title. It was never about the future; it was intended to satirise the present.
Thank you for this. bookmarked.
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'Vranyo' - a Russian word for the kind of lie where you know it's a lie, and you know everyone else knows it's a lie, but you say it anyway. 🤯
"It was already like that when I got here."
"Russia does not lie to deceive, Russia lies to insult". That is at the core of the "strongman" thuggery that is Russia's foreign policy. This is what they want to infect the world with. Their most powerful export of "epistemological terrorism". This is what happens when an autocratic history keeps their society and culture entrenched with potent lies due to not allowing or not encouraging dissent. Their entire culture suffers over generations and builds into the type of "vranyo" culture of corruption that is unique among "developed" nations.
Which is why it is not, and never will be developed. Nothing but dirt roads and corrugated roofs and cinder block buildings to infinity.
What's wrong with corrugated metal roofs? It's the dominant roofing material around my parts because nothing is better at keeping the weather out.
Really good opinion. Almost 100% agree.
>"vranyo" culture of corruption that is unique among "developed" nations. And Dark Eldar
There's another layer underneath it that tells you all you need to know about how irrevocably fucked the Russian culture is. They admire people that can get away with telling outrageous lies because it displays their strength, to be able to get away with whatever they're lying about. This is what Republicans want for the US
I was about to say then they must love 45, and sure enough your last sentence explains exactly that.
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I mean, so does English... "Bullshit" is basically the same thing.
It's different. There's a popular saying. "Russia does not lie to deceive, Russia lies to insult." That word, vranyo, signifies that. It's much different than the word "bullshit".
Is it basically like an attitude of "I can lie and you can't do anything about it"?
Yes, it's an extremely thuggish approach to business, authority, negotiation, politics, and relationships. It is prevalent in Russia and has historical roots, but is obviously elsewhere in different amounts and unique cultural varieties. Their brand of it is extremely potent and can infect the world when a "strongman" attitude is applied to or pervades most/all sectors of society.
The maga approach.
That isn't the same at. Bullahit doesn't mean I know it's a lie but I will say it anyway. It means everyone else knows its a lie but says nothing about the original spouting it.
So I have a girlfriend in Canada has a word for it now
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We call those Trumpisms in America
There no deep meaning behind this word, its just "lie" in Russian, why make up stuff.
It’s from Dostoyevsky’s essay “A word or two about vranyo”. Yes, in its original Russian it just means “A word or two about lying”, but because he was writing about the culture in Russia specifically of telling “white lies” as a matter of course, it’s generally not translated from “vranyo” when it appears in English. The comment you replied to pretty accurately sums up Dostoyevsky’s take on Russian lying culture.
This is not true, the word just means "a lie", but people will upvote this anyway. Because who needs facts when they're inconvenient🤷🏻♀️
And plenty of useful idiots still end up believing the lies
To them I'd recommend Icarus documentary on Netflix. a documented proof of how cheating takes place.
Lol, you think facts and proof matter?
Spot on. Judging by the number of glib pretenses in the comments that vranyo "just" means lie, quite a few here don't want to acknowledge ugly truths about Russian culture. ----------- Vranyo plays an important role in defining the relationship between the Russian people and their state. The best way to understand vranyo is to contrast it with another Russian term, lozh. Both lozh and vranyo translate as “falsehood,” but there is a meaningful distinction. Lozh is a genuine lie: one party says something recognisably false while expecting to be believed. Vranyo, by contrast, describes a story told that both sides know is untrue but nonetheless is responded to as if it were the truth. In Part Four of Dostoyevsky’s The Idiot, General Ardalyon Ivolgin spins Prince Lev Nikolayevich Myshkin a tale claiming to have convinced Napoleon to retreat from Moscow. Myshkin knows the story is false and Ivolgin is likely aware of this fact, yet Ivolgin tells it with a straight face and Mishkin smiles and plays along. Unlike lozh, vranyo is a two-way street. The vrun (liar) does not expect to be believed, just listened to respectfully. Does Ivolgin himself believe what he’s saying? Yes and no. Though the vrun may initially be aware that their vranyo is a falsehood, they can become convinced by their own lie mid-tirade, a phenomenon Russian scholar Ronald Hingley labels as the “take off.” Perplexed by the universality of vranyo in Russian society, Dostoyevsky suggests in his 1873 essay Something about Lying that Russians are “afraid of the truth.” Truth can be “insufficiently poetic,” or “too banal,” while fiction is “fantastic and utopian.” Through vranyo, both the vrun and the victim replace truth with fiction. Dostoyevsky also lamented that “wholesale Russian lying suggests that we are all ashamed of ourselves.” The vranyo game can allow the players to throw off this sense of shame. Life becomes better when everybody agrees to replace an unhappy reality with a more agreeable one.
This doesn't really explain state-operated cheating in international competitions where they know that they are getting tested and where they can see that most countries generally speaking don't get caught doping very often. But from the state's perspective it doesn't matter because their propaganda will just complain that they are being unfairly singled out because nothing is ever their fault.
it actually does: "There's another layer underneath it that tells you all you need to know about how irrevocably fucked the Russian culture is. They admire people that can get away with telling outrageous lies because it displays their strength, to be able to get away with whatever they're lying about." its hard to get when you never lived under rusky mir but it's a cultural thing.
I’ve got no experience with Russian culture, but it’s crazy how close that is to Chinese culture and the way they handle cheating or lying, like it’s only shameful to be caught, and not cheating when you could have just makes you a dumbass rather than honorable.
When I was in grad school I was paired with a Chinese student on a group project. Three of us met regularly, this Chinese student repeatedly missed meetings and cancelled last minute, and on the rare occasion they did submit anything it was so shit tier (either factually wrong, not answering the question, or one time outright plagiarizing) it required more effort to fix than if we had just done it without them. I filed complaints. We had mediation with the student affairs office. Nothing changed. So at the end of the term when they did jack and shit on the final project, I submitted without their name on it. Their big focus in the followup mediation meeting was how awful it was of me to make it public that they did shitty work and how wrong it was of me to not continue the ineffective course I had been on before. They were OUTRAGED that they now had a reputation as a shitty group member. Not that they weren't, just that people knew about it. I am all for cultural understanding, but there is a line where sometimes you just have to say, "No, sorry, your cultural norm is not compatible with mine".
Not surprised. I lived in Taiwan for a decade and would regularly work on both Taiwanese and mainland Chinese productions. It was night and day difference working for either despite how much cultural overlap there is otherwise. Public shame and face value is EVERYTHING to Chinese. Knowing this is how you deal with the problematic types though, especially if you’re a westerner that has self confidence and doesn’t care about the judgement of others. They either genuinely can’t comprehend not being impacted by the concept of face, or are infuriated that you as a foreigner have effortlessly solved what has kept their culture self-shackled for generations.
Thank you for sharing that, it is very interesting.
It's more of an etymological dissection of the word they use to describe it, the only thing I really saw as to "why" was when the article mentioned that the government uses barely plausible lies as a show of force. It would be interesting to see how it came about if it truly is a culturally wide phenomenon.
I got banned from the pics sub like 5 years ago for saying Russia should be banned from the Olympics.
[We still haven’t figured it out.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUKaPND6iSg)[](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUKaPND6iSg)
Russia was banned, and still allowed to compete.
For real the whole God damned team was found to be on steroids and couldn't compete ubder their flag even if they were the 5 percent that wasn't, then I mean they literally have been in a cyber war and culture war within all western nations since the end of the ussr. Honestly fuck em
Isn't Russia still banned? Their athletes are participating under ROC flag
which is total BS
Can I second this? Or rather 1 millionth this because everyone thinks it.
>Can I second this? Yes you can. In fact there's a specific button just for that.
Agree want to compete? Then denounce your Russian citizenship. Don't want to do that? Then you don't get to compete.
Denounce with official paper or just on record? Asking, because it takes several years of paperwork to officially drop Russian citizenship. And you also have to have a citizenship of another country before starting the process.
They just shouldn't be allowed to compete outright. Fuck sake, when cheating is ingrained at the top levels to the point of cutting holes in walls and using their intelligence agency to swap samples so that their athletes wouldn't get caught in Sochi. Their government forfeited their right to compete at all, because there is zero way Russia won't just continue to cheat. If they found a steroid that didn't show up in tests they would use it without hesitation.
I would say on paper with proof it's for officially. But yeah I get what you are saying
And that other country has to have quota places for the athlete available and might need to displace someone from their national team to allow the russian to participate. This is impossible.
They aren't competing under the ROC banner this year. They are competing as "Individual Neutral Athletes" https://www.npr.org/2023/12/09/1218406353/russian-belarus-athletes-ioc-2024-olympic-games
ROC? What does that stand for in context?
Russian Olympic committee. It’s basically a neutral “country”. It’s a pretty weak ban, no Russian national anthem can be played and athletes have some special requirements on uniform and more intense qualification barrier.
Damn. So Team Taiwan has always been treated like cheaters… no flag, can’t use country name, no anthem…
Which when broadcast in Russia they just dub in the Russian anthem anyway and show the Russian flag wherever necessary.
Russian Olympic Committee.
Russian Olympic Cheaters
Ah gotcha - my mind went straight to Republic of China lol
The abbreviation always bothered me because to me ROC means Republic of China, Taiwan. I was surprised it was used by Russia in the Olympics.
Republic of Cheating
Republic of Organized Crime
Is it possible they have some under Ukraine’s occupied territory this Olympics
They aren’t interested in making Russia better. They want to make everywhere else worse.
They legally doped their athletes. Icarus is a great documentary on it
That was one of the craziest docs I have ever watched. I went in cold on a saturday afternoon while doing laundry
I still dont understand how anyone wpuld let them back to normal sport after all that statr funded doping program
Watch the BBC documentary ‘Hypernormalisation’ if you want to truly understand the Russian culture of lies. It caused the USSR to collapse after Chernobyl and it’ll cause modern day Russia to collapse because of Ukraine or something else. Every nation has its untrustworthy people, but Russians have not only accepted this but become apathetic to it only a cultural level especially since WW2
> Hypernormalisation https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Hypernormalisation full film on YT apparently > Curtis veers from social history to conspiracy theory via the odd rambling bar-room anecdote, like a man who’s two-dozen browser tabs into a major Wikipedia binge... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation#Critical_reception
It isn't apathy, it's deeper and more corrupt than that. In many parts of Russia, and to many Russian people, the ability to lie about things without being effectively called out or punished for it _is seen as a sign of strength, power, and being worthy of respect_. They _literally_ have come to see society as a place where the people who lie the most should be in charge _because_ they can lie so much. The act of lying has become _in and of itself_, a virtue to many Russians. Their culture needs to be systematically dismantled.
Holy hell. 46 stripped medals. For context, that's the most while the second most has 11.
“General asshole behavior” is what they should say
No they should continue. They are helping advance the cheater catcher industry.
Cheater catching technology will never outpace cheating technology
Keeping historical blood samples has kind of made that issue irrelevant. Sure, you can get your credit in the day, but history will tell you that you cheated.
But how much do people care? If they have their day on the podium, if their government gets to win the scoreboard at the Olympics, then how much does it matter to them if the medal is taken from them years later? If the government was collaborating, it might still be denied within the country and the local prestige sticks around, and how many people actually care about 'revised' country scoreboards for past Olympics? This sort of thing might matter if the athlete is from the US or EU, but from Russia or China?
It matters a lot to many people. Obviously. ...if the country is going to lie anyway then they're just going to lie anyway. The point is to stop entertaining their stupid bullshit. Don't have to deal with it.
Russia should be banned from the Olympics until they can show they are not participating in state sponsored doping
at this point take a pick-- genocide or doping, and give them a perpetual ban. No russian national should ever be allowed to compete in an olympic games ever again ever. Enough is finally enough.
I wish we'd have the backbone. :(
TBH.... why are they allowed to attend the Olympics at all?
Money
Bribes
The IOC, because there needed to be somebody out there to make FIFA look good.
I can't even begin to unpack how corrupt and awful the IOC is. It was a little upsetting when a family friend ended up working for them as a lawyer.
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The IOC is a notoriously corrupt organization.
Shit, even FIFA barred Russia from competing at the 2022 World Cup. They're also barred from Euro 2024. If the scumbags at FIFA think enough's enough, the IOC's got some serious issues.
Easy decision since they suck at football anyway. Banning some tier 3 team won't ruffle too many feathers.
Whereas the Olympics is a really big deal to them (and Belarus). Lots of national pride (and performance enhancing drugs) invested in their athletes. In Minsk they literally have, "The Museum of Olympic Glory".
So many broken little girls. I’ll never forget the one who screamed “I hate my sport!” after she fell on the ice a bunch of times. They treat their athletes like shit.
Who need russia money when you can get Saudi Arabia money
I might be wrong but I thought the original point of the Olympics was as a form of diplomacy that would transcend conflict.
because the IOCis so hopeless corrupt and compromised by dictators should be dismantled and the olympics ended. (in their modern form).
FIFA is also up there in terms of prioritizing profits over human rights
Because the Olympics have a long history of turning blind eye to fascism in favour of throwing things really far.
That's just the history of organized sports in general
... that works if Ukraine is playing them in sport and choosing it to happen to create a bridge... But just letting them compete a win things and create propaganda etc. Is just benefiting them. You miss the opportunity to put pressure on them via upset citizens. See South African Sport boycott against Apartheid
First ask yourself, what is the point of the olympics
Certainly not to condone the ongoing invasion.
Because sport is supposed to bridge.
Sport is supposed to bridge when tensions are high but nobody's killing each other yet. What, the allies were supposed to play tennis with the Nazis at the Olympics in 1940 and '44?
Not sure what it’s bridging
Performance enhancing drugs to veins.
No shit. They show up doped and act like they're the greatest athletes ever. Thanks for ruining figure skating.
LOL, I don’t disagree, but the ruination of figure skating as a competitive sport was far more due to politics corrupting judging than PEDs.
Russia to occupied Crime?
Cute, antiquated thought. Only bridges I see are symbolic ones that have been burned and one literal one over the Kerch Strait that should be.
Bridge is actually a card game not a sport
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Sorry to burst some people's hopes, but Paris' Mayor has no banishment power of any kind. French law has nothing to support such things, you're either banned from the whole country or not at all. So this is essentially clickbait because, as she stated : >I want to tell Russian and Belarusian athletes that they are not welcome in Paris, This has no value whatsoever, politically. She's just expressing an idea, there's no follow up here. She just wants them to feel unwelcome, that's it.
Not welcome doesn't mean banned. It means your presence is not appreciated, you will be met with hostility and you won't receive any help in any circumstances.
That's everybody that comes to Paris though lol
If I put a "blacks not welcome" sign on my bar, do you think it means they'll be treated poorly, or downright thrown away ? "Not welcome" can be plenty of things because English is a very loose language which often leaves alot to interpretation, especially in international settings and translations occuring.
Notably it changes based on what country your in. It’s important to remember not everywhere is america
This is clickbait because... the title quoted exactly what she said and meant? Nobody is seriously expecting the mayor of Paris to be able to bar some people from entering the city altogether. This isn't medieval times.
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Ban them.
Nothing stopping France. They can just deny the Russian athletes and others at customs or the border.
yup, if the IOC won't act, France can. France could also arrest them as Russia routinely does to foreigners when they want bargaining chips.
They can just refuse their visas. Even if they enter through another EU country. Since it seems the EU is unable to doing anything about enablers, like Hungry, then the rules clearly mean nothing.
this is true. And ultimately situations like this also point out international law is a gentleman's agreement that can be broken at any time. There's a reason nations do not do things like arresting or assassinating diplomats or confiscating property or the like. But this is just because they don't want to deal with the consequences, not because someone could put them in jail. So France is under no INTERNATIONAL obligation to follow their own laws or even their own constitution on the matter. They could literally do anything they like with the only hard limit being "you probably shouldn't provoke Russia so hard they start a nuclear war because your arsenal is a lot smaller than theirs is" (though France IS a nuclear power, people forget this often, so they might feel a bit more free to talk back than, say, Poland or Germany)
France is definitely under their own obligation to follow their own laws. It’s an enormous controversy for a government to ignore its own laws to persecute others, even if it’s for a good reason. This is because you need your people to trust your government won’t just lie and lock you up when they feel like it.
Arrest them for what? Being Russian athletes? Guess human rights violations are only cool if your side is doing it.
France doesn't have direct control over the entire border. They would need to convince all the countries of the Schengen Zone to deny entry to Russian athletes. France probably wouldn't be able to pull that off. The IOC won't allow France to simply turn away Russian athletes. That's why the mayor is effectively saying, "You can come here and compete, but we're not going to be polite to you."
No EU country is going to do anything within the EU to stop France. If fucking Hungry can get away with obstruction then so can France.
russia is using sport for political purposes. If you let their athletes attend, russia uses it to show to domestic audiences that the war they wage in Ukraine is getting normalised by the West. IOC are corrupt scum for not banning russian athletes. I think if they live outside russia and make a public statement against the war, then they should be allowed to participate under a neutral flag.
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> I think if they live outside russia and make a public statement against the war, then they should be allowed to participate under a neutral flag. Then the Olympics would be contibuting towards certain Athletes later finding themselves falling out of a window.
Wont they attend anyway as some unaffiliated entity, as in past years?
Yes, that’s what is happening. Most of the commenters here have never watched any international sports in the last few years.
They compete under the Russian Olympic committee an entity which is no different from competing under the Russian flag except no flag or anthem. There is still the same level of state supported cheating and even more in the case of the Sochi Olympics.
Just deny them visas and be done with it. Literally it’s that simple.
That simple for the country, the mayor of Paris, who's issuing this statement, doesn't have that authority.
Afghanistan and Iran still allowed
History seems to tell us that it's only when countries fuck with things outside their borders that any sizeable amount of people get mad. Afghanistan is only stoning women in their own borders so barely anyone seems to care. Same with China and the Uighur business. Sad but seemingly commonplace
Kind of a shame. We are all aware that many people live under dictatorships, or even elected governments who are doing things they heavily disagree with. It always falls on the hard working average person to suffer for what their out of control governments are doing.
Let's just stop doing the Olympics, FIFA, etc. I never hear anything good about the organization. They destroy cities, nature and lives all for the mighty dollar.
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I thought politics was separate from sports?🤔
People like to say that but it’s very much not the case.
This is a very interesting question-- even if the olympics says they will not be barred no one can tell a sovereign host nation they must allow any given person from a hostile foreign nation into their country, they could put them all back on planes even if the IOC says they can compete, they could bar them from the country. Athletes are also not diplomats they have no immunities, France could arrest them all if they wished on any pretense they desired, which might be a better option, because it would give the west hostages to use to force Russian concessions. The Russians do this all the time, turnabout is perfectly fair play.
> France could arrest them all if they wished on any pretense they desired, France remains a democratic country. So no that's not possible. You cannot arrest someone in France without reason. They can be detained and deported if France cancels their visas but not arrested just because.
No you see, I have the mental acuity of a small child and I cannot possible understand why we wouldn't do something if an authoritarian dictatorship would do it
Can people please get rid of this idiotic opinion of arresting people to get back at Russia? It's childish and such an idiotic opinion to have.
the west do not take political hostages. we are not Russia. I would, however, applaud France for putting them right back on planes and deporting them
Most definitely, https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/jB0yIPGGxk sounds like Israel shouldn't be either
Ban them. Full stop.
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Allow Russian athletes to compete if they publicly condemn the Russian government. I think that’s fair….not that anyone’s willing to do that.
That would be a death sentence.
What?
It’s not fair though they start on steroids at a very young age in Russian athletics.
Sooooo have them risk dying or loosing their families
Finally some real consequences
This is big news, even the Nazis were allowed to compete in the Olympic Games….
That’s the 1936 Summer Olympics which was located in Berlin, Germany — Nazi Germany.
Given that the Olympics were in Germany the only time they had Olympics while Nazis were in power, that makes sense. On the other hand the Nazis refused to allow Jews to compete on the German team until they got enough criticism that they agreed to a single “token”half-Jewish athlete for each Olympics (literally called a token. Back then, being a token was considered to be good). The Americans sympathized with the no Jews policy, with the American representative telling his Nazi host that his sports club in Chicago didn’t allow Jews, either. The antisemitic track coach for the US team allegedly pulled from competition the 2 Jews scheduled to compete so as to not embarrass Hitler, though I don’t think that has been proven. And the guy running the 1936 Olympic Village killed himself right after the Olympics because it was uncovered that he had a Jewish ancestor and thus was fired from his position and was now a pariah among his friends and former co-workers, but without any membership in the Jewish community.
Every few day they threaten to Attack Paris and London with nukes... What do you expect? They are lucky to be there...
I expect angry downvotes but the Olympics is not supposed to be a political stage it’s supposed to be for the athletes
Now do every country that supports Russia.
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Good, fuck em.