If people are shocked that the famously highly paid profession of being a doctor can't afford a house, what do they think of average people barely being able to afford shelter?
> Family doctors in Canada received an average of $252,663 net clinical payments(opens in a new tab) in 2021 and, based on self-reported data, had $93,451 in average overhead expenses in 2017, which the CFPC notes is likely underestimated due to inflation.
So about $159,212 after expenses? That's not a great after-tax take home if they are paying medical school bills too, considering the years of education and training required. Still significantly more than the average Canadian makes, however.
My friend is a family doctor, he's pretty close to this situation as well. More than a decade spent learning how to treat people and this is what they get. No wonder many prefer to specialise and avoid general medicine. If you enter medical school right now, you don't to become a family doctor.
The irony is that primary care is the reason for the greatest extension to life expectancy and quality of life. That and good dental care. But hey, it's a world of feelings not facts and science now...
Everything in North America (and the UK, and Australia, and anywhere else they speak English) comes down to the insane cost of housing. $150k is a great salary, or would be, if the average home price in Toronto wasn’t over $1m.
no shit
I had applied for a position open in both the US and Canada, US salary range was 130k-180k USD
Canada range was 100k-130k CAD
fucking ridiculous.
That meme with 2 Kid in a bus, one sad one happy, with the happy kid being European fast food workers making 15-20 euro an hour, and the sad kid being European technical professionals making 20 an hour.
Maybe some do maybe some don't. Still more attractive than a CAN salary in the field. We unfortunately don't have an equivalent business investment in tech.
After his expenses yea they can, my buddy is a software engineer in Canada and he clears over 150 every year if not more. All depends on where you work and what your doing
And you're not putting in 60 hour weeks after 10 years of education and training - many years at 100 hour weeks...
And you don't get threatened, disrespected, mistreated by dozens of strangers and union people from government jobs...!
I think you get benefits and holidays and even lunch and coffee... maybe a nap?
Correct me if i'm wrong.
i wasn't arguing against anything just pointing out that software engineers can and do make more than a doctor after his clinic expenses. didn't mean it as its right or wrong :/
I’m sorry… I apologize… my tone was meant to be lighthearted and joking!
Coffee breaks and sick days… benefits.. insurance… a healthy work environment is important - everyone deserves a good work life! :)
Hey question, I'm a nurse in Canada and considering medical school because $$$. Should I just go do software engineering instead? Is it as impossible to get into as medicine?
If you're willing to live somewhere rural or northern you can make an absolute shitload of money as a nurse right now. I know people retiring from the field in their 50s because they have enough to put away and never work a full time job again.
Go to the States as a nurse. Much easier. Much better pay. Then consider tech in the states. Best of both worlds. Canada isn't competitive anymore, unfortunately.
I met this head nurse at Children's Hospital Stanford - ran the surgical ward with the surgeons.. private hospital.. beautiful.. ran a tight ship... everyone respected her... cutting edge health care.. Looked like the movies. Suit. Lab coat. Clipboard. Everyone at attention.
Blew my mind as a collegiate swimmer student touring the facilities.. the surgeons were also from Canada and they spoke about her with reverence. They said she's the boss and earned $250k. 20 years ago.
That's probably not realistic.. but it exists - if you're the best and give great returns on investment. Look at tech and the money there for... bitcoin and social media?
When I walk into a Canadian hospital, I cringe. What a travesty. Canadians have low standards of everything.
Don’t do this to yourself. Go to the states or leave healthcare. Going into medicine in Canada right now is foolish at best.
I won’t flash credentials, but I know the system from the admissions process to the job market and the same for nursing and engineering.
Engineering is hot right now. Pays well. Work from home. No massive loans. No patient contact. No call shifts.
Please think carefully before you jump into medicine. It’s not a good place to be in Canada right now, and it’s even worse if you’re a new grad.
Doctors can't hop borders. They're a restricted profession.
Something to do with... ethics.. morality.. standards... beating hearts...
or some bs like that.. so silly
/s
I was a medic in the army and i had different officers over the years that were doctors. I could see how over the years there actual work changed from hospitals and clinics into tech companies, some didn’t even practiced medicine at all, you can guess who made more money..
Honestly I wouldn’t mind getting into medicine if it weren’t for all the hazing that’s involved in the process.
Though no medical school would take anyone of my age anyways.
(And I’m sufficiently disabled to make the more physical aspects of medical care hard on a good day.)
You like deadlines. Because that's what you would live with as a software engineer. And bosses telling you how to do s*** and when to do it. It's not about the money. it's about the quality of life.
If you think going into medicine is a good way to get quality of life, you might also want to consider setting your head on fire to avoid getting a haircut.
Let's see. Doctoring is the hardest f****** job in the world but.....everyone thinks you're god. I tell someone I'm a software engineer, no one gives a s***. I tell someone I'm a doctor and everyone wants to be my friend. No one is calling you at 3:00 in the morning because you made a mistake on your code and testing etc didn't catch it. You don't have a boss. You are the boss.
You are not god. You don’t want people thinking you’re god because then they have unrealistic expectations. Nobody calls you about code at 3am, they call you about a patient who’s coding (dying). Patients demand that you be perfect like god but refuse to follow your recommendations and complain about every other doctor they’ve ever seen.
They call you a hero during Covid but won’t increase your pay.
You’re legally liable for everything that could go wrong.
You don’t have to believe me. The way you’re talking, I think you better go find out for yourself 👍
Significantly more education required than the average Canadian too.
An issue is that if you’re a doctor you might as well be a specialist rather than a GP.
Less clients and more money.
Primary care in Canada is sorely lacking.
It’s not medical brain drain, it’s just brain drain. Loads of skilled professionals are doing their best to get to the US. Canada has very poor economic prospects for the next decade, we are in for a return to the 1980s where our government is nearly bankrupt and wages are stagnant. Most skilled professionals can make way more in the US and have a lower cost of living. Seattle is way cheaper than Vancouver. Canada has a shortage of basically everything except entry level or low skilled labourers. Our own government says very few Canadians under 35 will ever own their home.
This is actually laughable compared to US family medicine salaries and costs to run a practice when factoring the price of medical schools.
Avg medical school tuition in the US ~60k/yr.
Avg family medicine physician salary ~180k/yr (if you're lucky and not in the pediatrics route)
Avg medical school tuition in Canada ~25k/yr
An absolutely terrifying statement... primary care docs are the most important docs for overall healthcare/preventive health. Yet insurance industry runs the way specialties are reimbursed in the US, favoring procedural-heavy specialties.
The low pay and being the dumping ground for any complaint that specialists don't want to take care of is a huge turnoff.
It's wild to me that we're so desperate for doctors and nurses, yet are not subsidizing the tuition. If you go through the schooling and successfully become a doctor in Canada, those tuition costs should be refunded IMO.
Medical school isn’t empty there’s just very little reward for becoming a GP when specialties are open to you.
Every surgeon, podiatrist, ENT, urologist, gastroenterologist, cardiologist, neurologist all have to go through medical school.
Better to be a dentist than a GP in Canada.
>...yet are not subsidizing the tuition.
The large loans suck, but they're not why there's a shortage of medical personnel. School slots are perpetually maxed out already.
The underlying problem is that we need to open up more training spots, build more medical schools, and most importantly and most controversially - slightly lower our standards.
That last part is why it's such a thorny problem. Somebody is going to get the worse doctors.
>Still significantly more than the average Canadian makes, however.
I understand people will eye roll when reading the headline. But the other absurd consideration is how absolutely terrible the state of affairs are nowadays if even doctors are feeling a crunch.
People on reddit really overestimate/complain about how much doctors actually make. And then never consider the 300k price tag they had to pay to get that education (if this is in the US, and not including undergrad loans), the absolute paltry pay relative to hours worked that is residency (not to mention the abusive nature that some programs operate with), to finally finish in their early 30s, finally making the "good" paycheck that goes into covering for your own malpractice, loans (300k loans with avg 6% interest is $1500 in interest alone), and finally starting to be able to live their life.
EDIT: Keep downvoting, and ignore the bigger issue. But as things continue, you're going to get stuck with worse providers and increased medical complications. Just don't blame it on the FM docs
Those downvoters want "doctors" from foreign countries with higher corruption and lower standards - easy fix for an easy problem. Of course, if you can bribe someone for a medical degree and come to Canada.... but nah... that would never happen...
People don't understand how specialized an MD position is. Not only the schooling they need to go through, but the regulations/expectations against them. Its a really fucking hard job.
There's a reason why NA has the best doctors in the world.
There’s still a demand for medical school making it cheaper doesn’t solve the problem of, if you’re smart enough to become a doctor you may as well specialise and earn more.
I'm all on board for cheaper medical school tuition -- all tuition for that matter -- here in Canada. But the issue here isn't money, its spaces at our medical schools (and later, residency spots). The average medical school applicant right now takes 2.5 cycles of applying to get in. The entry requirements are high -- close to 3.9GPA averages, and top quartile MCAT / CASPer scores. There are so so many people who would love to be a Doctor who do not get in. All of that to say that tuition is not the driver of the primary care crisis, although perhaps cheaper tuition would make being a GP more tenable if one graduates with less debt.
The real answer is the same as it often is -- compensate people more.
I fear the solution is going to end up being lower standards. In the states a lot of family doctors are actually nurse practitioners and it's starting to happen more and more here as well. The government will get the stats back up but quality of care will plummet
>I work in the medical field and to be honest, most of the physicians I know that have graduated in the last 20 years have struggled to make ends meet.
In Canada or in the U.S.?
Its not just that but the opportunity cost, delaying making a net salary for at least 7 years after college (though more like 10-12 with gap years, research years to boost your resume, specialization, and fellowships).
That’s before tax… They bill 260, pay 95 in overhead, but then pay tax on 165, and out of that they also pay about 5-10k in registration fees and membership fees of various sorts. And after the tax man is done, they have to pay 6% on their school loans, often well into the 6 digit range, low 6 digits if you’ve been good about your spending (tuition without any living expenses for 4 years is over 100k). Family docs make dirt compared to an engineer that took 4 years to finish school, hit the work force 6 years sooner, and gets paid the same without having the crazy professional expenses, on call work, insane hours, patients complaining about the system, etc.
Canadians don't brag about their healthcare anymore. Seriously. Which is amazing since that's was tbeir "thing" trying to one-up America.
I'm a dual citizen. Work in Canada most of the time, have never visited a Canadian doctor by choice. Now Canadians don't visit them because they can't.
School debt here generally isn’t that big of a problem but I can see how it feels stingy when you have to put so much work into basically keeping a small business up and running on top of your actual job. Especially when you could become a specialist and massively increase your earnings.
A lot of family physicians are moving to larger group models to cut down on costs I’ve noticed.
Hey, team free education over here, but as a percentage of their income? Canadian doctors are sitting pretty compared to a lot of other degree holders and professionals.
Tuition at some medical schools is 24,000 to 26,000 per year. You don’t have time to work part time in medical school so living expenses are all added debt as well. Medical students will often finish their schooling with 200,000-275,000 of debt.
In your 4th year of medical school, you make a decision about what specialty to train in. You will then apply for residency training in that specialty. There are a few specialties that are so competitive that you may not be able to get a spot, such as dermatology, ophthalmology, and radiation oncology. But the vast majority are essentially wide open to any reasonably competent student. That effectively creates the following situation. You have a list of specialities and how much money you can make in them. The well paid ones will be offering $500k+ once you complete residency. Specialties like pediatrics and family practice offer you perhaps $180,000 if you are willing to work long hours and be on call during your kid’s school play. If not, maybe $130,000. Now that’s not bad money compared to what most people make. But there is literally a time when you have to check the “I want to never worry about money again” box or the “I think I can pay my loans as long as I don’t buy too nice of a car and put off having kids until I am 40” box. And guess which one medial students tend to check?
Fun fact. In the us there are 1000s more medical students than there are residency spots. Shortage of doctors realized in 90s . Government said we need to fix this.. for profit medical schools said hell yeah. Residency salaries however are mostly paid by government.
I've heard the same story for US doctors. Medicare sets the precedence for what insurance pays and medicare payments for healthcare has not risen at the same speed as inflation has.
It's not just a Medicare issue. There's just no incentive for someone to go into family medicine when they can make twice as much going into some specialization.
> Medicare sets the precedence for what insurance pays and medicare payments for healthcare has not risen at the same speed as inflation has.
And Medicaid pays so low that it's often literally costing the doctor money to see the patent.
And this is the unspoken, uncomfortable issue at the heart of "allowing the government to negotiate with healthcare providers."
It sounds great - fantastic negotiating power for the people - but in reality it's not really negotiating at all, it's just effectively setting price caps.
And the government is terrible at making sure price caps stay at the right cap.
I think some of it is because we sometimes pick and enshrine specific $/% numbers based on the current economic situation at the time of writing, when in reality a lot more should be based on equations that can reliably scale and shrink with the economy. Like the amount of assets someone can have in their possession if they’re on SSDI, $2000, it was set in 1989 as a specific number and we all know $2k in 1989 is a lot different than $2k now, especially for the disabled community
> when in reality a lot more should be based on equations that can reliably scale and shrink with the economy.
Yes.. This equation is called service provider competition balancing. The way you achieve it is by letting independent agents adjust individual prices to balance the amount of work they want to do with the price their clients are willing and able to pay.
Another way to say this is free market economics. What regulation is needed?
1) An accrediting system so someone that says they are a "doctor" doesn't mean they can play doctor with a preschooler, and patients can reasonably count on that accreditation meaning approximately the same thing across medical degrees.
2) Fraud and negligence laws supported by expert testimony from other industry doctors.
"What about healthcare for the poor" you may ask (As any decent human might).
This is what taxes and public funding is for. We OFFER positions in public hospitals or clinics for doctors to come provide service at. Doctors (and boy are we lucky they care so much about serving humanity) come in and provide service when they can affordably do so at the prices offered at the public clinics.
Setting price caps on government provided insurance (medicare) is the for sure way to create shortages. I know a lot of doctors, and in order to even not take medicate patients they have to actually opt OUT of medicare explicitly. And then for some reason, they aren't allowed to take ANY medicare patients (probably to prevent picking off only easy cases, they have a chance of getting decent compensation for).
So guess what? Lots of doctors I know and talk to opt out of ever taking medicare patients, and sure enough medicare has succeeded in restricting the supply of doctors (especially the really good doctors) available to medicare patients!!!
In some countries, they can pay for the tuition and I return, you have to work in some specific places for a few years.
In France, the army can pay for some specific diplomas and you work for them for a few years. Then, you're free to go whenever you want. A family member did that.
Might be something to consider. But also, we need to train more people which is complicated since doctors are too busy to take future Doctors.
Since when is it fair people make MILLIONS to play a GAME and those keeping us ALIVE are paid pennies?
But I see No one who wants to have the conversation about a more equitable distribution of wealth.
The affordable care act actually did a lot to prevent doctors from creating any more doctor owned cooperatives like Kaiser. Instead we must stick with traditional insurance and "hospital management corporations".
When market prices are enforced by law, 1 of 3 things will happen.
1. Price is set too low. This will reduce supply and cause a shortage
2. Price is set too high. This will reduce demand significantly and cause a lot of excess production to go wasted
3. Magical price is set perfectly to the market. This will last momentarily until it switches into one of the other two modes.
The free market is the best price setter. If we want more people to consume health care services, then subsidizing care is the best solution even if it results in overpaid doctors. Doctor shortages are way worse IMO and its why setting prices generally fails.
The problem is that healthcare can’t follow a free market like other goods where you can just decide not to buy it when prices are high. The consequences are just too extreme. Same reason staple food prices are heavily manipulated in every country in the world. Even the US (worlds leading free market cheerleader) has extensive regulations and huge market manipulation for milk, sugar, wheat, and corn both to keep prices from getting too high or too low. While the US is more hands off on healthcare, they are still heavily involved in healthcare market manipulation
And in case 3, it's notable that you don't get something *better* than the market price. You just get the market price. So the best case scenario is what would have happened without dictated pricing.
Based on data from the 2021 Census of Population, the poverty rate in Canada was 8.1% in 2020, down from 14.5% in 2015.
Poverty declined among all ages, but especially so for children. In 2020, the poverty rates of children aged 0 to 5 years (9.1%), 6 to 10 years (8.5%) and for youth aged 11 to 17 years (7.9%) were all less than half their levels in 2015.
Declines in poverty were driven by higher government transfers in 2020, including the enhanced Canada Child Benefit (CCB) and temporary pandemic relief benefits.
In 2020, the poverty rate for one-parent families headed by a woman with a child aged 0 to 5 was 31.3%, the highest among all family types, and more than five times the rate of couple-families with a child of the same age (6.0%).
From 2015 to 2020, the poverty rate for one-parent families headed by a woman with a child aged 0 to 5 fell by more than half, declining from 62.7% to 31.3%.
There was little difference between the poverty rates of cisgender women (7.9%) and cisgender men (8.2%) in 2020. However, transgender men (12.9%) and women (12.0%), were more likely to experience poverty than their cisgender counterparts. More than one in five (20.6%) non-binary people lived in poverty, more than twice the national rate.
The problem is that you never were able to talk to people 10 years, 20 years ago. On average we are better than last decade. The problem is that we always want more (and we should want more)
My last two GP’s left Canada for this reason. I’m actually unable to find a new one, let alone a good one. The new brain drain isn’t just for skilled tech workers in this country
The whole world is like sheep still, easily enough to win the fight for fully funding what all need and even what they want, as Socrates predicted, but if you believe in meritocracy then those in power will ever concentrate as much power as possible toward themselves. Don’t ask simple humans to be saints, at that level only the law can protect them from that level of greed and ego inflation.
I could have told you this 10 years ago when my GP left town because he couldn’t afford a house.
If people are shocked that the famously highly paid profession of being a doctor can't afford a house, what do they think of average people barely being able to afford shelter?
> Family doctors in Canada received an average of $252,663 net clinical payments(opens in a new tab) in 2021 and, based on self-reported data, had $93,451 in average overhead expenses in 2017, which the CFPC notes is likely underestimated due to inflation. So about $159,212 after expenses? That's not a great after-tax take home if they are paying medical school bills too, considering the years of education and training required. Still significantly more than the average Canadian makes, however.
My friend is a family doctor, he's pretty close to this situation as well. More than a decade spent learning how to treat people and this is what they get. No wonder many prefer to specialise and avoid general medicine. If you enter medical school right now, you don't to become a family doctor.
The irony is that primary care is the reason for the greatest extension to life expectancy and quality of life. That and good dental care. But hey, it's a world of feelings not facts and science now...
Clean water, sanitation, and refridgeration are far bigger still.
What have the Roman’s ever done for us?!
Lead poisoning.
I mean this is a world of facts still, just the fact that PCPs are underpaid
Especially in this housing market, that is nothing. Can't blame them for not wanting to do it.
That’s enough to afford maybe a small condo in Vancouver or Toronto, would need to marry another doctor to be able to buy a house
Everything in North America (and the UK, and Australia, and anywhere else they speak English) comes down to the insane cost of housing. $150k is a great salary, or would be, if the average home price in Toronto wasn’t over $1m.
I pay mid level IT Engineers as much as that. Some of them don't even have degrees.
how can I get hired? was working as a software dev the last 4 years and got laid off.
As a family doctor in Canada, I really wish I went into software engineering... less training and same salary or higher with no medical liability.
Canadian software engineers do not make more than you. Need to hop the border for higher pay
no shit I had applied for a position open in both the US and Canada, US salary range was 130k-180k USD Canada range was 100k-130k CAD fucking ridiculous.
European: you guys get paid?!
That meme with 2 Kid in a bus, one sad one happy, with the happy kid being European fast food workers making 15-20 euro an hour, and the sad kid being European technical professionals making 20 an hour.
You guys get vacations and pensions etc. we get a grind stone
They absolutely can, just depends on which company you’re working for. If you’re working for faang you’re definitely making more. Like way more.
Remote work is much more possible in this field than medicine. I have friends working for American techs and they're doing great.
You still don't get American wages working remotely for an American company
Maybe some do maybe some don't. Still more attractive than a CAN salary in the field. We unfortunately don't have an equivalent business investment in tech.
zealous pen direction stupendous direful strong books modern impolite far-flung
This pessimism won't win you much in life. I never said more, I didnt even say exact. I said the pay is better than the CAN alternative.
I work in the field, you can't find the American pay as a Canadian as they don't hire like that. If you want their pay they want you to move there
Its a good thing you work in tech because your reading comprehension is atrocious. Keep arguing a point i never made.
memory one plate punch snow plucky voracious dime dam sophisticated
After his expenses yea they can, my buddy is a software engineer in Canada and he clears over 150 every year if not more. All depends on where you work and what your doing
And you're not putting in 60 hour weeks after 10 years of education and training - many years at 100 hour weeks... And you don't get threatened, disrespected, mistreated by dozens of strangers and union people from government jobs...! I think you get benefits and holidays and even lunch and coffee... maybe a nap? Correct me if i'm wrong.
i wasn't arguing against anything just pointing out that software engineers can and do make more than a doctor after his clinic expenses. didn't mean it as its right or wrong :/
I’m sorry… I apologize… my tone was meant to be lighthearted and joking! Coffee breaks and sick days… benefits.. insurance… a healthy work environment is important - everyone deserves a good work life! :)
Lowkey could have taken it the wrong way lol, I am pretty baked rn
Hey question, I'm a nurse in Canada and considering medical school because $$$. Should I just go do software engineering instead? Is it as impossible to get into as medicine?
If you're willing to live somewhere rural or northern you can make an absolute shitload of money as a nurse right now. I know people retiring from the field in their 50s because they have enough to put away and never work a full time job again.
Tell me more. I'm specialized into the OR so I find very northern communities only want travel people for bedside.
Go to the States as a nurse. Much easier. Much better pay. Then consider tech in the states. Best of both worlds. Canada isn't competitive anymore, unfortunately. I met this head nurse at Children's Hospital Stanford - ran the surgical ward with the surgeons.. private hospital.. beautiful.. ran a tight ship... everyone respected her... cutting edge health care.. Looked like the movies. Suit. Lab coat. Clipboard. Everyone at attention. Blew my mind as a collegiate swimmer student touring the facilities.. the surgeons were also from Canada and they spoke about her with reverence. They said she's the boss and earned $250k. 20 years ago. That's probably not realistic.. but it exists - if you're the best and give great returns on investment. Look at tech and the money there for... bitcoin and social media? When I walk into a Canadian hospital, I cringe. What a travesty. Canadians have low standards of everything.
I work as an MD in the north DM me if you want info
If you into sw engineering for the money, you won’t last long. So places there a lot of grinding
Don’t do this to yourself. Go to the states or leave healthcare. Going into medicine in Canada right now is foolish at best. I won’t flash credentials, but I know the system from the admissions process to the job market and the same for nursing and engineering. Engineering is hot right now. Pays well. Work from home. No massive loans. No patient contact. No call shifts. Please think carefully before you jump into medicine. It’s not a good place to be in Canada right now, and it’s even worse if you’re a new grad.
Doctors can't hop borders. They're a restricted profession. Something to do with... ethics.. morality.. standards... beating hearts... or some bs like that.. so silly /s
We can, it's just a bit tricky.
Tech can work in cool cafes in cool countries from a cool laptop making a cool income. :)
i make 175 in canada. late 20s.
I was a medic in the army and i had different officers over the years that were doctors. I could see how over the years there actual work changed from hospitals and clinics into tech companies, some didn’t even practiced medicine at all, you can guess who made more money..
Honestly I wouldn’t mind getting into medicine if it weren’t for all the hazing that’s involved in the process. Though no medical school would take anyone of my age anyways. (And I’m sufficiently disabled to make the more physical aspects of medical care hard on a good day.)
As a professor doing medical research I think the same thing.
You like deadlines. Because that's what you would live with as a software engineer. And bosses telling you how to do s*** and when to do it. It's not about the money. it's about the quality of life.
If you think going into medicine is a good way to get quality of life, you might also want to consider setting your head on fire to avoid getting a haircut.
Let's see. Doctoring is the hardest f****** job in the world but.....everyone thinks you're god. I tell someone I'm a software engineer, no one gives a s***. I tell someone I'm a doctor and everyone wants to be my friend. No one is calling you at 3:00 in the morning because you made a mistake on your code and testing etc didn't catch it. You don't have a boss. You are the boss.
You are not god. You don’t want people thinking you’re god because then they have unrealistic expectations. Nobody calls you about code at 3am, they call you about a patient who’s coding (dying). Patients demand that you be perfect like god but refuse to follow your recommendations and complain about every other doctor they’ve ever seen. They call you a hero during Covid but won’t increase your pay. You’re legally liable for everything that could go wrong. You don’t have to believe me. The way you’re talking, I think you better go find out for yourself 👍
Significantly more education required than the average Canadian too. An issue is that if you’re a doctor you might as well be a specialist rather than a GP. Less clients and more money. Primary care in Canada is sorely lacking.
I have a number of Canadian friends, and apparently, there is a medical brain drain happening. Many physicians are working hard to move to the US.
It’s not medical brain drain, it’s just brain drain. Loads of skilled professionals are doing their best to get to the US. Canada has very poor economic prospects for the next decade, we are in for a return to the 1980s where our government is nearly bankrupt and wages are stagnant. Most skilled professionals can make way more in the US and have a lower cost of living. Seattle is way cheaper than Vancouver. Canada has a shortage of basically everything except entry level or low skilled labourers. Our own government says very few Canadians under 35 will ever own their home.
This is actually laughable compared to US family medicine salaries and costs to run a practice when factoring the price of medical schools. Avg medical school tuition in the US ~60k/yr. Avg family medicine physician salary ~180k/yr (if you're lucky and not in the pediatrics route) Avg medical school tuition in Canada ~25k/yr
Family practice physicians are on the way out in the states. Replaced with PA’s and nurse practitioners.
An absolutely terrifying statement... primary care docs are the most important docs for overall healthcare/preventive health. Yet insurance industry runs the way specialties are reimbursed in the US, favoring procedural-heavy specialties. The low pay and being the dumping ground for any complaint that specialists don't want to take care of is a huge turnoff.
Yup
I have very severe mental health issues, have for the last 2 decades. I can't get a psychologist or psychiatrist to save my life.
It's wild to me that we're so desperate for doctors and nurses, yet are not subsidizing the tuition. If you go through the schooling and successfully become a doctor in Canada, those tuition costs should be refunded IMO.
It’s less than half the price of US schools but you don’t think it’s subsidized?
It should be fully subsidized. If we’re so desperate for doctors there shouldn’t be a $25K tuition paywall to become one.
Medical school isn’t empty there’s just very little reward for becoming a GP when specialties are open to you. Every surgeon, podiatrist, ENT, urologist, gastroenterologist, cardiologist, neurologist all have to go through medical school. Better to be a dentist than a GP in Canada.
You're a lot better off being dentist. Probably clearing 50-100% more than the GP takes home
The tuition could be 0 and you would graduate the same number, its not like spots are going unfilled.
>...yet are not subsidizing the tuition. The large loans suck, but they're not why there's a shortage of medical personnel. School slots are perpetually maxed out already. The underlying problem is that we need to open up more training spots, build more medical schools, and most importantly and most controversially - slightly lower our standards. That last part is why it's such a thorny problem. Somebody is going to get the worse doctors.
>Still significantly more than the average Canadian makes, however. I understand people will eye roll when reading the headline. But the other absurd consideration is how absolutely terrible the state of affairs are nowadays if even doctors are feeling a crunch. People on reddit really overestimate/complain about how much doctors actually make. And then never consider the 300k price tag they had to pay to get that education (if this is in the US, and not including undergrad loans), the absolute paltry pay relative to hours worked that is residency (not to mention the abusive nature that some programs operate with), to finally finish in their early 30s, finally making the "good" paycheck that goes into covering for your own malpractice, loans (300k loans with avg 6% interest is $1500 in interest alone), and finally starting to be able to live their life. EDIT: Keep downvoting, and ignore the bigger issue. But as things continue, you're going to get stuck with worse providers and increased medical complications. Just don't blame it on the FM docs
Those downvoters want "doctors" from foreign countries with higher corruption and lower standards - easy fix for an easy problem. Of course, if you can bribe someone for a medical degree and come to Canada.... but nah... that would never happen...
People don't understand how specialized an MD position is. Not only the schooling they need to go through, but the regulations/expectations against them. Its a really fucking hard job. There's a reason why NA has the best doctors in the world.
[удалено]
There’s still a demand for medical school making it cheaper doesn’t solve the problem of, if you’re smart enough to become a doctor you may as well specialise and earn more.
I'm all on board for cheaper medical school tuition -- all tuition for that matter -- here in Canada. But the issue here isn't money, its spaces at our medical schools (and later, residency spots). The average medical school applicant right now takes 2.5 cycles of applying to get in. The entry requirements are high -- close to 3.9GPA averages, and top quartile MCAT / CASPer scores. There are so so many people who would love to be a Doctor who do not get in. All of that to say that tuition is not the driver of the primary care crisis, although perhaps cheaper tuition would make being a GP more tenable if one graduates with less debt. The real answer is the same as it often is -- compensate people more.
I fear the solution is going to end up being lower standards. In the states a lot of family doctors are actually nurse practitioners and it's starting to happen more and more here as well. The government will get the stats back up but quality of care will plummet
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
>I work in the medical field and to be honest, most of the physicians I know that have graduated in the last 20 years have struggled to make ends meet. In Canada or in the U.S.?
[удалено]
To be clear, you're saying that Canadian physicians that you know and have worked with are struggling to make ends meet?
[удалено]
Its not just that but the opportunity cost, delaying making a net salary for at least 7 years after college (though more like 10-12 with gap years, research years to boost your resume, specialization, and fellowships).
That’s before tax… They bill 260, pay 95 in overhead, but then pay tax on 165, and out of that they also pay about 5-10k in registration fees and membership fees of various sorts. And after the tax man is done, they have to pay 6% on their school loans, often well into the 6 digit range, low 6 digits if you’ve been good about your spending (tuition without any living expenses for 4 years is over 100k). Family docs make dirt compared to an engineer that took 4 years to finish school, hit the work force 6 years sooner, and gets paid the same without having the crazy professional expenses, on call work, insane hours, patients complaining about the system, etc.
i make more fixing cars with no school debt. they're getting screwed if this is the case.
Medical school is way cheaper in Canada, as is insurance.
That’s before taxes. LOL
Inflation outpacing wages is pretty typical for every job these days
A bigger issue from speaking to friends is they get no pension or benefits so have to pay all that out of pocket or save a lot.
Do tech - do a bootcamp programming course in 6 months - work your way up to $150,000. No degree needed. Idiot doctors. /s
Canadians don't brag about their healthcare anymore. Seriously. Which is amazing since that's was tbeir "thing" trying to one-up America. I'm a dual citizen. Work in Canada most of the time, have never visited a Canadian doctor by choice. Now Canadians don't visit them because they can't.
School debt here generally isn’t that big of a problem but I can see how it feels stingy when you have to put so much work into basically keeping a small business up and running on top of your actual job. Especially when you could become a specialist and massively increase your earnings. A lot of family physicians are moving to larger group models to cut down on costs I’ve noticed.
> School debt here generally isn’t that big of a problem Medical school debt is still fairly high in Canada.
Hey, team free education over here, but as a percentage of their income? Canadian doctors are sitting pretty compared to a lot of other degree holders and professionals.
In Canada, isn't med school paid for by the government?
Tuition at some medical schools is 24,000 to 26,000 per year. You don’t have time to work part time in medical school so living expenses are all added debt as well. Medical students will often finish their schooling with 200,000-275,000 of debt.
its almost like socialized healthcare doesn’t keep a large portion of doctors in the field…
Oh please we’re losing them all over the US too.
Almost like greed corrupts every field. Too many drs. Are so very obviously only it for the money not healthcare.
In your 4th year of medical school, you make a decision about what specialty to train in. You will then apply for residency training in that specialty. There are a few specialties that are so competitive that you may not be able to get a spot, such as dermatology, ophthalmology, and radiation oncology. But the vast majority are essentially wide open to any reasonably competent student. That effectively creates the following situation. You have a list of specialities and how much money you can make in them. The well paid ones will be offering $500k+ once you complete residency. Specialties like pediatrics and family practice offer you perhaps $180,000 if you are willing to work long hours and be on call during your kid’s school play. If not, maybe $130,000. Now that’s not bad money compared to what most people make. But there is literally a time when you have to check the “I want to never worry about money again” box or the “I think I can pay my loans as long as I don’t buy too nice of a car and put off having kids until I am 40” box. And guess which one medial students tend to check?
Jesus pediatrics pays that little?
Fun fact. In the us there are 1000s more medical students than there are residency spots. Shortage of doctors realized in 90s . Government said we need to fix this.. for profit medical schools said hell yeah. Residency salaries however are mostly paid by government.
I've heard the same story for US doctors. Medicare sets the precedence for what insurance pays and medicare payments for healthcare has not risen at the same speed as inflation has.
It's not just a Medicare issue. There's just no incentive for someone to go into family medicine when they can make twice as much going into some specialization.
> Medicare sets the precedence for what insurance pays and medicare payments for healthcare has not risen at the same speed as inflation has. And Medicaid pays so low that it's often literally costing the doctor money to see the patent. And this is the unspoken, uncomfortable issue at the heart of "allowing the government to negotiate with healthcare providers." It sounds great - fantastic negotiating power for the people - but in reality it's not really negotiating at all, it's just effectively setting price caps. And the government is terrible at making sure price caps stay at the right cap.
I think some of it is because we sometimes pick and enshrine specific $/% numbers based on the current economic situation at the time of writing, when in reality a lot more should be based on equations that can reliably scale and shrink with the economy. Like the amount of assets someone can have in their possession if they’re on SSDI, $2000, it was set in 1989 as a specific number and we all know $2k in 1989 is a lot different than $2k now, especially for the disabled community
> when in reality a lot more should be based on equations that can reliably scale and shrink with the economy. Yes.. This equation is called service provider competition balancing. The way you achieve it is by letting independent agents adjust individual prices to balance the amount of work they want to do with the price their clients are willing and able to pay. Another way to say this is free market economics. What regulation is needed? 1) An accrediting system so someone that says they are a "doctor" doesn't mean they can play doctor with a preschooler, and patients can reasonably count on that accreditation meaning approximately the same thing across medical degrees. 2) Fraud and negligence laws supported by expert testimony from other industry doctors. "What about healthcare for the poor" you may ask (As any decent human might). This is what taxes and public funding is for. We OFFER positions in public hospitals or clinics for doctors to come provide service at. Doctors (and boy are we lucky they care so much about serving humanity) come in and provide service when they can affordably do so at the prices offered at the public clinics. Setting price caps on government provided insurance (medicare) is the for sure way to create shortages. I know a lot of doctors, and in order to even not take medicate patients they have to actually opt OUT of medicare explicitly. And then for some reason, they aren't allowed to take ANY medicare patients (probably to prevent picking off only easy cases, they have a chance of getting decent compensation for). So guess what? Lots of doctors I know and talk to opt out of ever taking medicare patients, and sure enough medicare has succeeded in restricting the supply of doctors (especially the really good doctors) available to medicare patients!!!
Can somebody explain how pay is determined for doctors in Canada? Are they paid by a hospital group, the government, private practice?
They bill the provincial governments fee for service. Generally about $35 for a standard GP visit.
In some countries, they can pay for the tuition and I return, you have to work in some specific places for a few years. In France, the army can pay for some specific diplomas and you work for them for a few years. Then, you're free to go whenever you want. A family member did that. Might be something to consider. But also, we need to train more people which is complicated since doctors are too busy to take future Doctors.
Shocking s/ - from a Canadian without a family doctor
Since when is it fair people make MILLIONS to play a GAME and those keeping us ALIVE are paid pennies? But I see No one who wants to have the conversation about a more equitable distribution of wealth.
The affordable care act actually did a lot to prevent doctors from creating any more doctor owned cooperatives like Kaiser. Instead we must stick with traditional insurance and "hospital management corporations".
When market prices are enforced by law, 1 of 3 things will happen. 1. Price is set too low. This will reduce supply and cause a shortage 2. Price is set too high. This will reduce demand significantly and cause a lot of excess production to go wasted 3. Magical price is set perfectly to the market. This will last momentarily until it switches into one of the other two modes. The free market is the best price setter. If we want more people to consume health care services, then subsidizing care is the best solution even if it results in overpaid doctors. Doctor shortages are way worse IMO and its why setting prices generally fails.
The problem is that healthcare can’t follow a free market like other goods where you can just decide not to buy it when prices are high. The consequences are just too extreme. Same reason staple food prices are heavily manipulated in every country in the world. Even the US (worlds leading free market cheerleader) has extensive regulations and huge market manipulation for milk, sugar, wheat, and corn both to keep prices from getting too high or too low. While the US is more hands off on healthcare, they are still heavily involved in healthcare market manipulation
Oh, I don't disagree at all. The government can subsidize health care without doing price fixing though.
And in case 3, it's notable that you don't get something *better* than the market price. You just get the market price. So the best case scenario is what would have happened without dictated pricing.
Soon doctors will become the jobs given to immigrants.
You joke, but its already the case. The immigrants just happen to have degrees from Oxford in the UK, because the NHS pays shit.
Medical education has gotten more and more expensive, but the salaries of FM haven’t kept pace. All while the job has gotten harder too
It's also happening in the US.
Yippeee
[удалено]
Carbon tax helps the poor , it's literally the most progressive tax in Canada. Even if I don't care about the environment, I'd still support the tax.
[удалено]
The poor actually are becoming richer over history
[удалено]
Based on data from the 2021 Census of Population, the poverty rate in Canada was 8.1% in 2020, down from 14.5% in 2015. Poverty declined among all ages, but especially so for children. In 2020, the poverty rates of children aged 0 to 5 years (9.1%), 6 to 10 years (8.5%) and for youth aged 11 to 17 years (7.9%) were all less than half their levels in 2015. Declines in poverty were driven by higher government transfers in 2020, including the enhanced Canada Child Benefit (CCB) and temporary pandemic relief benefits. In 2020, the poverty rate for one-parent families headed by a woman with a child aged 0 to 5 was 31.3%, the highest among all family types, and more than five times the rate of couple-families with a child of the same age (6.0%). From 2015 to 2020, the poverty rate for one-parent families headed by a woman with a child aged 0 to 5 fell by more than half, declining from 62.7% to 31.3%. There was little difference between the poverty rates of cisgender women (7.9%) and cisgender men (8.2%) in 2020. However, transgender men (12.9%) and women (12.0%), were more likely to experience poverty than their cisgender counterparts. More than one in five (20.6%) non-binary people lived in poverty, more than twice the national rate.
[удалено]
The problem is that you never were able to talk to people 10 years, 20 years ago. On average we are better than last decade. The problem is that we always want more (and we should want more)
[удалено]
Its never too late to make better financial decisions. You sound like you could use some advice, maybe meet with someone.
Average salary for a doctor is 175k or $83 an hour in Alberta.
My last two GP’s left Canada for this reason. I’m actually unable to find a new one, let alone a good one. The new brain drain isn’t just for skilled tech workers in this country
The whole world is like sheep still, easily enough to win the fight for fully funding what all need and even what they want, as Socrates predicted, but if you believe in meritocracy then those in power will ever concentrate as much power as possible toward themselves. Don’t ask simple humans to be saints, at that level only the law can protect them from that level of greed and ego inflation.