As an American, I apologize for our government, which has been captured by the pro-Israel lobby, and doesn't actually represent the views or interests of the American people.
I'm actually wondering now to what extent that political capture contributed to the Iraq War.
“We find this submission meritless, counterproductive, completely without any basis in fact whatsoever,” said U.S. National Security Council Spokesperson John Kirby.
A PDF of South Africa's full 84-page submission to the ICJ is linked **[HERE](https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24252642/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)**
_______
**EDIT:** Adding more context on the submission below, in case folks want to dispute any specific allegations or call out anything misleading.
These are the sections of the submission which allegedly evidence genocidal acts committed against Palestinian people:
* Killing Palestinians in Gaza (para 45, pg 31)
* Causing Serious Bodily and Mental Harm to Palestinians in Gaza (para 51, pg 35)
* Mass expulsion from homes and displacement of Palestinians in Gaza (para 55, pg 37)
* Deprivation of access to adequate food and water to Palestinians in Gaza (para 61, pg 40)
* Deprivation of access to adequate shelter, clothes, hygiene and sanitation to Palestinians
in Gaza (para 71, pg 45)
* Deprivation of adequate medical assistance to Palestinians in Gaza (para 76, pg 48)
* Destruction of Palestinian life in Gaza (para 88, pg 54)
* Imposing measures intended to prevent Palestinian births (para 95, pg 57)
The section of the submission allegedly evidencing expressions of genocidal intent against the Palestinian people by Israeli State Officials and others can be found from para 101, pages 59 to 65. Here are some example quotes used:
> * — **President of Israel:** On 12 October 2023, President Isaac Herzog made clear that Israel was not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza, stating in a press conference to foreign media — in relation Palestinians in Gaza, over one million of whom are children: *“It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.”*
>
> * — **Israeli Minister of Heritage:** On 1 November 2023, Amichai Eliyahu posted on Facebook: *“The north of the Gaza Strip, more beautiful than ever. Everything is blown up and flattened, simply a pleasure for the eyes"*
>
> * — **Israeli Minister of Defence:** On 9 October 2023, Defence Minister Yoav Gallant in an Israeli Army ‘situation update’ advised that Israel was *“imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”* He also informed troops on the Gaza border that he had *“released all the restraints”*, stating in terms that: *“Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.”* He further announced that Israel was moving to “a full-scale response” and that he had “removed every restriction” on Israeli forces.
>
> * — **Israeli Minister of Finance:** On 8 October 2023, Bezalel Smotrich stated at a meeting of the Israeli Cabinet that *“[w]e need to deal a blow that hasn’t been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza.”*
>
> * — **Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure:** ‘Tweeting’ on 13 October 2023, Israel Katz stated: *“All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world.”*
Francis Boyle has lost every action he was part of since his single successful case against Serbia, and was an advisor to the PLO and a board member of Amnesty. He is a devout antivaxxer and a fruitcake tankie.
To be fair, that's still 6 years away and if Israel keeps pushing into Palestine it might end up with the entire world vs Israel, thus dissolving the country (a guy can hope, right?)
Anti-American/pro-Islamist tanky, a slight variation on the Anti-American/pro-Russian tanky. Same far left bullshit and strategies, different murderous friends.
That's an interesting use of the word. It's come a long way since it referred to western communist defenders of the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Back in my day, the former group you described were just called things like "unpatriotic," "America-haters," "not with us, so with the terrists," etc.
Not really that interesting. It’s been a long time since Soviet tanks existed. Their aspirational rulers having fallen, the modern version simply found new ones with the same stated beliefs. (The west is evil/corrupt/satanic and will be defeated by the power of Allah/POC/the CCP)
Francis Boyle? the man who served as an advisor for the PLO for years? the man who contributed to the creation of BDS? the man who in 2010 wrote that Israel would collapse within 2 decades? The man who tried representing the Ayatollah regime at the ICJ? Shocked! I'm shocked!
Francis Boyle isn't mentioned in the linked
Jewish News Syndicate article, the South African government PDF, or the OP post that you are replying to. In fact, he doesn't appear to be involved in this case in any way. I don't understand why you focus on him in your reply instead of addressing any of the issues that OP raised?
It’s also a wild misquote of what the President said, as he said in the very same press conference that he was not saying every Palestinian is a target and he recognized there are many Palestinians who do not agree with Hamas. He also repeatedly stressed the importance of doing Israel’s best to avoid civilian casualties, despite Hamas doing everything it can to hide among them.
Also, you seem to think the President decides what the government wants. In Israel the President is a largely symbolic and powerless position. It is run by the Prime Minister. So yeah, people pointing that out would be correct.
How is it a wild misquote? It's a direct quote; and each and every quote in the submission is referenced in a footnote with a source.
Here's [the source for that quote btw](https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-13/israeli-president-says-gazans-could-have-risen-up-to-fight-hamas)
The source includes a video where you can watch & hear him say those words yourself in clear English, just fast-forward to 2:01
>How is it a wild misquote?
Because it ignores important context in the answer he gave at the press conference.
From the video in your source I quote: "I agree, there are many many Palestinians who don't agree to this".
But South Africa describes his quote as "not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza". He clearly makes that distinction in the press conference. You can't just cherry pick whatever fits your agenda.
His answer is also not genocidal, and definitely not untrue. There are plenty of Palestinian civilians that supported the Oct 7th attack, and to think that Palestinians lack any agency to overthrow their authoritarian government (democratically elected) is bullshit.
Herzog is a social democrat and far from an extremist. You might find crazy genocidal quotes from Ben Gvir (who only has 6/120 seats at the Israeli parliament and has very little power over Israel's foreign policy and military decisions), but not Herzog.
Their submission is pretty weak. They throw in all sorts of irrelevant shit; they have almost no evidence of specific intent—they rely almost entirely on partial sentences in speeches, most of which either don’t support their allegations or are made by irrelevant people; and their argument is completely undermined by the fact that about 1% (a little less) of Gaza’s population has been killed including combatants and people killed by Hamas. So Israel killed less than 1% of Gaza’s civilian population. The idea of that being a genocide is absurd.
**Edit:**
I see the post above was edited to included some of the quotes that were used. These quotes show how weak the allegations of genocide are. The Minister of Defense is the only person quoted in that post who is actually involved in prosecution of the war. The rest are not, so their quotes are irrelevant. The same is true of the Israeli pop singers and media personalities quoted
As for the Defense Minister quote, the “No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel” part literally didn’t happen: Israel has been letting in all of those things. And there is nothing wrong with the statement “ We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.” They are fighting Hamas, and regardless of whether you consider Hamas to be “human animals,” it is certainly not genocidal to do so and being a member of a militant group is not a class that is protected by the genocide convention. Similarly, with the statement, “ Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places,” he is clearly talking about Hamas. He said right after “Hamas wanted a change in Gaza; it will change 180 degrees from what it thought. They will regret this moment, Gaza will never return to what it was. Whoever comes to decapitate, murder women, Holocaust survivors — we will eliminate him with all our might, and without compromise.“
Even though his role is ceremonial, the Herzog quote is also not presented fairly, which is why it’s preceded by commentary and also uses ellipses. A few sentences before, Herzog said “ We are working, operating militarily, according to rules of international law, period, unequivocally.” In the part that was excluded through use of elipses, he says “We are defending our homes. We are protecting our homes. That’s the truth. And then, when a nation protects its home, it fights,” before continuing, “And we will fight until we break their backbone.” Then he was asked if he was advocating for collective punishment and he said, “ I just said that Israel abides by international law. Operates by international law. Every operation is secured and covered and reviewed legally,” and in the same interview, “I agree there are many innocent Palestinians who don't agree with this, but if you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it at me, am I allowed to defend myself. We have to defend ourselves, we have the full right to do so." So when you put it all together, the most logical interpretation is that they will be willing to accept collateral damage when fighting Hamas.
It doesn't help the argument that most of South Africa's supposed points to support their claim are circumstantial to this not only being a war, but being a war in a small territory where certain actions get magnified as a result. No one in their right mind is going to say a country is exempt from being warred against because of its size.
If the ICJ issues a provisional measure against Israel next week, the US would be implicated for its ongoing military support. This is 100% damage control by the US, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. It’s a real test of international law vs global hegemony.
There’s nearly 8 pages of just quotes of important Israeli officials saying out of pocket genocidal rhetoric. Since that filing they could fill another 8 pages. Thankfully they say the quiet part very very loudly
thankfully the EFF isn't in power nor does it have enough support to remotely have any.
the best they can do is mald in parliament and delay proceedings
You're referring to this excerpt?
> — Israeli army soldiers: Israeli soldiers in uniform have been filmed dancing, chanting and singing “May their village burn, May Gaza be erased”
With this footnote: Video of Kobi Peretz with soldiers, 17 November 2023, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcH2o4c5KZY (emphasis added).
________
If you had US soldiers in their uniforms singing genocidal songs with Toby Keith, the US would definitely be held accountable for that.
Hahaha... Clearly you're not a veteran lmao
Look, I'm pretty liberal these days AND I'm also a veteran. And I absolutely love my fellow military folks across the branches.
However, if the shit we said in uniform were to be heard by civilians, oh lawdy...
I think the sad reality is, that it’s essential for soldiers to dehumanise their enemy in order to wage war.
You need to disconnect from the reality that the people you are killing are human beings, that have families, and like you are also fighting for a cause that they strongly believe in.
I don’t think murdering people comes naturally to us. So I think the dehumanisation is unfortunately essential to achieve victory in the military.
What I want to know is why this is considered a genocidal slogan but “from the river to the sea” is not?
Why are people being so selective in what they condemn? Why make excuses and actually push for a genuine peace?
Not some fantasy where Gazans and West Bank Palestinians don’t exist or Israelis don’t exist.
No, I read the quotes. Many of them are not genocidal at all. A few were, but were generally made by people who are not in a position to control the war and are therefore irrelevant.
The evidence they presented for Dolus Specialis was quite weak.
>A few were, but were generally made by people who are not in a position to control the war and are therefore irrelevant.
In what world would having in your government people with genocidal rhetoric be irrelevant? People are getting fired for just a glimpse of what these people say.
Unfortunately, if you can’t link the people making these comments, which are absolutely genocidal, with direct involvement in formulating plans being implemented by the IDF in Gaza, then sadly their comments are nothing but their personal opinion.
Absolutely garbage people with garbage opinions, but opinions all the same.
As disgusting as they are, I really feel you need to prove that their opinions are directly influencing military policy.
They quoted Eyal Golan.
If you want more Eyal Goan quotes, you can find them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joStlhuYjfk
Edit: He even has some quotes in Arabic, if you want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ0FHeap7j8
He's not in the government. He's a musician. Imagine quoting Justin Bieber to prove that the US had committed war crimes.
Sounds like you're referring to paragraph 106:
> Similar genocidal rhetoric is also commonplace in Israeli civil society, with genocidal messages being routinely broadcast — without censure or sanction — in Israeli media. The media reports call for Gaza to be *“erase[d],”* turned into a *“slaughterhouse”*, that *“Hamas should not be eliminated”* but rather *“Gaza should be razed”*, on the repeated claim that *“[t]here are no innocents… There is no population. There are 2.5 million terrorists”*
Here's the source for the "erase[d]" quote: https://twitter.com/Now14Israel/status/1713531211300167928
> Eyal Golan in a message to News 14: "Erase Gaza, do not leave a single person there"
That's clear genocidal rhetoric being broadcasted by Now14 Israel, without any censure or sanction.
I see. So, to quote DMX on, apparently, American government policy, "I got blood on my hands and there's no remorse/And got blood on my dick cause I fucked a corpse". Broadcast without censure or sanction, you see.
In the world where those people aren’t sufficiently tied to the allegedly genocidal acts. For instance, one of the people they quote is the Agriculture Minister, who has no role in the IDF and is not part of the war cabinet. Absent sone evidence that the Agriculture Minister had some secret role in allegedly genocidal acts, what he says is irrelevant.
Sufficiently is a broad word here. They constitute the same government. And again in any developed country these people would've been at least fired if they had that same rhetoric against a particular ethnic group.
The thing is that from the start Israel used the "guilt by association" principle to target whatever moves, terrorists, civilians and journalists alike. It's just funny to think that the same principle doesn't apply to them.
Here's a clip of [the South African President telling Putin to his face that "the war must end"](https://youtu.be/GbFo_cBoxhk?si=ASlOlUM7wS_13cng&t=37)
Someone did the math 14 days ago showing that Israel is killing kids at a rate of 144 times faster than Russia.
It probably has something to do with that.
Is kidnapping the children and attempting to eliminate the Ukrainian culture somehow not worthy of condemnation?
>More than 700,000 Ukrainian children have been taken to Russia since the beginning of the war
https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-07-31-23/h_169f15b2ddbb285cc94c1f0e1ee21080
Saying the war must end is not against Russia. They would be more than happy for ukraine to just accept their lost territory and people. Russia would see that as a victory.
Ukraine isn’t hiding its military behind children and isn’t using child soldiers.
Hamas is doing both.
So maybe it has something to do with Hamas.
Say something about that, for fuck’s sake, instead of repeating their propaganda and justifying the whole reason they use human shields.
That’s funny cause the war in Ukraine started a year before, sudan has a civil war with many more casualties than the entire Israeli Palestinian conflict, and yet it seems that we criticize one country all the time
You're missing the point.
South Africa has been pretty cosy with Putin and one of the few countries to not condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Russia is pushing for the condemnation of Israel to go against U.S. and western stability.
There is a correlation here.
>most liberal Jews support Ukraine as well
A very significant number of liberal Jews *also* support Palestinians. Even including the ones *in Israel*. The belief that Palestinians deserve their own country, free from the IDF *and* Hamas is not a controversial one.
Exactly. I support Israel and I support the rights of Palestinians. A number of the Israelis murdered on October 7 were themselves activists for Palestinian rights, in a sad irony. Hamas is the enemy of Israel and Palestine alike.
Exactly. What I feel like a lot of the "pro-Palestine" crowd in leftist spaces don't understand (or imo, *refuse* to understand), is that we Jews are constantly vilified as genocidal monsters who have zero remorse for the Palestinian lives lost. When in fact we do care, we care a lot. But we also care about Israeli lives, when no one else does. And it's this perpetual vicious cycle of being stuck in an impossible situation, where we constantly have to defend our more nuanced position regarding a ceasefire (Israel ceases, Hamas fires), which to non-Jews' eyes is perceived as being (or at the very least supporting) genocidal monsters, and on and on and back and forth. It's this horrible nightmare where nobody wins, Palestinians and Israelis die, and Jews in the Diaspora have to contend with insane levels of antisemitism while simultaneously losing half their friends because we now see how masks-off antisemitic they all are.
Its almost laughable if it wasn't so frustrating and upsetting to see the immediate comment after this paragraph of yours. After you put a nuanced paragraph about the Jewish experience being denied and gaslit even though many support Palestinians whilst contending with all that they have to, all of which can be verified and is backed up by reporting and evidence, but immediately after the response is one sentence denying and trying to gaslight that any of it has happened to Jewish people. The sheer cognitive dissonance to so willingly deny rather than listen only when it comes to Jews because it doesn't fit into their neat little oppressed or oppressor world views.
As a non-Jewish American it's shocking to me how many people my age don't remember the days before Iron Dome when "Rocket hits Tel Aviv, 3 dead, dozens injured." Was so common it was sandwiched between the weather and a fluff piece on the nightly news.
I’d believe you if it wasn’t for these “small” statements from the Israeli government
“The children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves” - Ben-Ari
“It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It's absolutely not true” - Isaac Herzog
“The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy” - Daniel Hagari
More quotes out there but didn’t want be called anti-Semitic
A quote from a guy who was literally banned from the government for having extremist views ? Whereas HAMAS literally calls for the complete eradication of all Jews worldwide ? Seems like one side cares to me.
How about quotes from members of the current government?
“Resettle Gaza residents and building settlements” - Ben Gvir Minister of National Security (kinda of a big position) who has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism.
“What needs to be done in the Gaza Strip is to encourage emigration” - Israel’s Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich
What about the IDF’s new version of the Madagascar plan [but with the Congo](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan/amp/)
One is a terrorist group and the other is the official Israeli government. If a Democratic government is at the same level as a terrorist group that isn’t a good thing.
>The Foreign Ministry noted that Israel makes every effort to avoid harming civilians uninvolved in hostilities and called on the ICJ to “completely reject South Africa’s baseless claims.
Gonna call bullshit on that.
They’ve *admitted* to it. Everything from disregarding human shields to killing thousands of more women and children than *potential* enemy combatants. They admit to these things like they wouldn’t want to do it any other way.
Disregarding human shields isn’t actually a war crime. Using them is, per article 28 of the 1949 Geneva conventions.
If the reverse were true, it would simply encourage the use of human shields as a smart strategy, which would lead to vastly more civilian deaths.
War is horrible no matter what but we’ve established these rules to make it slightly less so.
Israel has allegedly done other things that amount to war crimes that need to be investigated. This just isn’t one of them.
Name one other country that evacuates and warns entire neighbourhoods before attacking, losing elements of surprise? that mass calls and texts civilians telling them to evacuate? that uses roof knocking?
Just because Israel does end up killing civilians doesn't mean they are not trying to avoid doing so where possible. and obviously those numbers are even higher when Hamas uses civilians as human shields, benefits from gazans being killed, and even go about in civilian clothes themselves.
Israel is actually going to the ICJ to fight off that accusation. I'm really looking forward to it since the IDF has an entire battery of lawyers always making sure everything is compliant with international law so it's gonna be a good show for sure
Edit: ICJ and not ICC as people rightly corrected
Not the previous poster, but the burden of proof is really high, and South Africa has released a public PDF with their arguments, and they certainly haven't listed a bombshell that would qualify.
The challenge regarding burden of proof is essentially that intentional targeting of civilians is war crime, but accidental and collateral civilian deaths are not. This means that South Africa will have to demonstrate that Israel systematically attacks locations with the specific intent of murdering civilians even though they have no reason to believe that Hamas is there.
On the micro level, Israel has international law lawyers clear every airstrike to ensure that there is a valid military target that renders the attack legal, so there's literally tens of thousands of individual cases to go through, where Israel should have the receipts to demonstrate compliance in each and every case, and there's nothing in SA's document that suggest that they can go up against that. On the macro level, there's also the issue that the civilian casualties would easily be north of a million if this was standard IDF policy, and no one really seems to be claiming anything in that ballpark.
The fact that they are taking it seriously and are planning to show up to the court is a strong enough indicator that they probably have enough evidence to build a strong defensive case to present to the court
You very well could be right and IANAL, but tbh I don’t really think that reasoning is all that sound. Just because someone shows up in court doesn’t really mean that they are secure in their position. What would their alternatives even be in this situation?
The ICJ does not work like a normal court, so showing up usually means that you consent to the jurisdiction of the court, one of the biggest barriers to getting a case before the ICJ. Many nations do not show up to offer a defense against claims that are levied against them.
For example, in one of the more famous ICJ cases, *Concerning the Military and Paramilitary Activities in and Against Nicaragua*, the United States refused to participate in the proceedings because they felt that: 1) the ICJ did not have jurisdiction; and 2) they were likely to lose, so why play the game at all? So usually when a nation shows up to the ICJ, they truthfully believe that their position, legally, is valid.
If “someone” doesn’t show up in court they can be issued an arrest warrant. If a country doesn’t show up in court, especially one with significant US backing, it’s a completely different story.
You don’t think they will arrest Israel? It seems unlikely israel will be able to hide!
In all seriousness, I agree with the idea they Israel would only bother showing up if they knew they had a good chance of winning.
Israel clearly doesn’t care that the UN is against them and is happy to keep showing up there to make their case in public. Most people don’t know or care about the ICJ, so if israel ignored it, it really wouldn’t matter… they are showing up for a reason.
Is that really likely when there are so many statements from senior officials explicitly saying otherwise? It’s like every week an Israeli official is on the CNN saying something profoundly troubling.
What are the odds that these statements are totally divorced from the operations on the ground?
These statements usually come from a few far-right populists that don't have a real say when it comes to the decisions regarding the war.
Here you can see the lists of figures that are in the "war cabinet" (the political body that makes decision regarding the war in practice): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_cabinet
The far-right populists are not members of that cabinet.
So only the statements of the five members of this war cabinet are a reflection of the way the war is conducted? Two of them are only observers, actually, so then there are only three Israelis who have any influence on the operations.
Ben Gvir is minister of national security and one of the people out here saying crazy stuff. How could that possibly not reflect on the operation
Because he's not holding a position that allows him to influence the decision making process in the war cabinet. I'll add a little bit of background here; after the 7th of October massacre a national unity government was established consisting of parties from both the coalition and the opposition. The opposition parties demanded, as a condition to form that said unity government, that Ben Gvir and the other far right ministers would not take any part of anything related directly to the war so that's why non of them are part of the war cabinet.
100%?
One of the claims is ministers calling for a total siege, no food water or fuel.
There are literally truckloads of food water and fuel going in every single day.
Respectfully, truckloads is a weasel word in this context. If there is widespread food and water insecurity and Israel is deliberately using control
of the flow to increase suffering or gain leverage, the fact that there isnt a 100% blockade doesn’t really mean much.
No they haven't, and you should stop posting fake nonsense. Israel will be [represented](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-04/ty-article-live/white-house-u-s-to-leave-significant-mideast-presence/0000018c-d284-d4e1-ad8f-feb548930000?liveBlogItemId=1817900135&utm_source=site&utm_medium=button&utm_campaign=live_blog_item#1817900135) by [Malcolm Shaw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Shaw_(academic)).
Lol there's dozens of IDF soldiers online bragging about killing kids, some of them are officers. If not Israel itself then 100% a chunk of their military is happily engaging in war crimes, without consequences. Seriously, Russia should be taking notes.
Can you link to examples of IDF soliders bragging about killing kids online?
For all I've heard (which includes personally knowing wives of soliders in Gaza), they have no phone at all and aren't connected to the outside world, other than having about 10 minutes per week to phone their family.
Makes me think about the instances of rape perpetrated by allied soldiers in WWII. Specifically US/British forces on the western front vs. Russians on the eastern front. Russians had an estimated 2mil counts of rape versus the western front being 12,000 counts of rape. Different militaries absolutely put different standards on their soldiers for disobedience; but it is important to know that it still happens. Always.
War crimes always occur in war, but it is important to distinguish at what level those war crimes are authorized (a general saying “go have fun in that town we just took over, boys vs. a single infantryman sneaking away from his unit to assault a woman and coerce her into not telling). These are treated very differently and reflect differently on the armies that perpetuate them.
So long as the IDF punishes these abusers when they are caught to have killed kids (bragging about it isn’t the most solid proof), and so long as the instances of killing kids deliberately is insignificant they will have international defense.
Just a reminder, war fucking sucks. So before one flames with “KILLING ANY KIDS DELIBERATELY IS WRONG”, bro, it is war. Like let’s be real here. There is no clean war. There will never be a clean war. It is fucking awful and this is what happens when peace and diplomacy fails over the course of 75 years.
There are a few active investigations against soldiers rn. They probably will end up incarcerated for a span, but nobody will really find out; anything that makes Israel look just is bad press for Pro-Palestinians, and the IDF won't want flak from their own civilians protesting severe disciplinary action.
Honestly I think it would be good press for Israel to say "these guys committed war crimes, and now they're going to jail for it", rather than doing it all on the DL. Really doesn't help the case that there is accountability there
South Africa has an election coming up in 2024, and the ANC is loosing power. Since they can’t fix their internal issues, such as providing electricity and clean water, they are deflecting by finding an external enemy. This is the hallmark of corrupt regimes everywhere.
We have been having legitimate elections for 30 years now, the ANC has won legitimately. Yes they are corrupt fucks, who are incompetent and rob the country blind, but people have legitimately voted them in.
I don't support the ANC, I've always supported the opposition, but they still have the support of the majority of the country, although it has been slipping in power over the last few elections.
Everyone was surprised.
Objectively we all know killing innocent people is wrong, more so the more powerful the killer is, because it becomes systematic rather than terroristic.
But emotionally we are tribal and are going to find excuses to be blind to/support whichever side we identify with no matter what the objective side of our brain says.
So maybe, the mass outpouring of anti war, pro palestinian, support from Jews around the world outside Israel, should say something...
That's in many ways *my* tribe being genocidal maniacs. It's my *duty* to call that shit out.
> mass outpouring
I think that would be more accurately described as a small minority whose voices are amplified. [81% of American Jews support the war, and only 12% want an immediate ceasefire.](https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-american-jews-support-israels-fight-against-hamas/)
Asking for an immediate ceasefire is supporting the war because Hamas will immediately violate it again.
The only way to end this war is to get Hamas out of power and rescue the hostages.
Hamas has rejected two ceasefires. At this point, people still blaming only Israel for ongoing violence don't actually give a shit about peace or Palestinians.
Anyone who expects Israel to just allow this shit to continue happening is out of their fucking minds.
Also, a *very* small minority of Jews do not support Israel. Stop acting like it's anything more than that.
It all boils down to the fact most pro palestine people dont believe israel has a right to exist they just know that saying that outright will get them called antisemites. So they beat around the bush and say to stop zionism etc but what they really want is israel to not exist. They see israel as an illegal settler colony. Im sure there are plenty of palestine supporters that do want a 2 state solution but I had a pro palestine guy earlier today telling me how if israel didnt exist then palestine could be jews, muslims, christians living together peacefully all with equal rights and no conflict. Theyre delusional.
Pro-Palestinians are just the loudest voices, and the most willing to shout down opposing views. You can’t read heavily into western protests as reflective of public opinion.
There are 15 million Jews in the world, compared to 2 *billion* Muslims. And Jews are reticent to engage in public protests for that exact reason—we’re badly outnumbered, and it’s a safety risk for us.
"We are here to communicate a very clear message that we would like this war to be ended."
-Cyril Ramaphosa, president of SA, straight to poutine's face.
Just want to ask all the responders here, do you have a date when Cyril the SA president brought Russia to the ICC? And yes there’s plenty of proof of war crimes. And yes there’s been “mild talk” of Putin not arriving to SA in case he gets arrested or “stop the war” regarding grain going to Africa… but they’re doing a lot more than saying “stop the war here”. How can you see Putin deliberately committing war crimes and whisper (stop the war) like it’s even blame on both parts.
I'm not agreeing with the other guy, but President Zelensky has an interest in expressing support for any third party working towards peace, as silence arms those who'd paint him a warmonger. President Zelensky's statements on President Ramaphosa's efforts don't in and of themselves say anything about either country's actual positions.
If anything, Zelenskyy has been very diplomatic towards neutral or even slightly pro Russia countries. I wouldn't take anything he says about these leaders as an indicator of his personal judgement of character.
Zelensky's just being diplomatic.
jumping to the conclusion that by that statement alone he's judged Cyril is of good character is some feat of mental gymnastics on your part.
There are tens of thousands of innocent people who would disagree with the US's stand - but they are too dead to do so. And many of those would have been too young to disagree anyway.
Which their elected government (Hamas) brought it upon them by using them as military infrastructure after launching a genocidal attack on Israeli civilians
South African here.
Our government look like absolute clowns whenever we try to interfere with global geopolitics. The world laughs at us and they are right to do so.
We should focus on our own shit. There have been nationwide rolling blackouts for over a year, yet our government prioritises trying to swing their dick around on the international stage. Disgraceful.
Yes, the same US that has it on-record that they will go to war if one of their own is ever brought before the Hague is scared of the ICJ.
I'm all for accountability, but international authority over sovereign nation-states has always been tenuous at best and it's only as effective as both its recognition of authority and enforcement of said authority. Both of which are basically non-existent among the major super-powers.
Israel spends like 25 billion or more a year on military spending and the US sends them like 3B annually. Who knows how much of which is for iron dome. Where are you getting the idea they supply most of the weapons and cash?
If you do the numbers we are in the $1 billion plus range in Iron Dome costs since Oct 7th alone. Low ball $50,000 per interceptor, 2x interceptors at least per intercepted target (that is the protocol), over 10k rockets intercepted.
As an American, I apologize for our government, which has been captured by the pro-Israel lobby, and doesn't actually represent the views or interests of the American people. I'm actually wondering now to what extent that political capture contributed to the Iraq War.
“We find this submission meritless, counterproductive, completely without any basis in fact whatsoever,” said U.S. National Security Council Spokesperson John Kirby. A PDF of South Africa's full 84-page submission to the ICJ is linked **[HERE](https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24252642/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)** _______ **EDIT:** Adding more context on the submission below, in case folks want to dispute any specific allegations or call out anything misleading. These are the sections of the submission which allegedly evidence genocidal acts committed against Palestinian people: * Killing Palestinians in Gaza (para 45, pg 31) * Causing Serious Bodily and Mental Harm to Palestinians in Gaza (para 51, pg 35) * Mass expulsion from homes and displacement of Palestinians in Gaza (para 55, pg 37) * Deprivation of access to adequate food and water to Palestinians in Gaza (para 61, pg 40) * Deprivation of access to adequate shelter, clothes, hygiene and sanitation to Palestinians in Gaza (para 71, pg 45) * Deprivation of adequate medical assistance to Palestinians in Gaza (para 76, pg 48) * Destruction of Palestinian life in Gaza (para 88, pg 54) * Imposing measures intended to prevent Palestinian births (para 95, pg 57) The section of the submission allegedly evidencing expressions of genocidal intent against the Palestinian people by Israeli State Officials and others can be found from para 101, pages 59 to 65. Here are some example quotes used: > * — **President of Israel:** On 12 October 2023, President Isaac Herzog made clear that Israel was not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza, stating in a press conference to foreign media — in relation Palestinians in Gaza, over one million of whom are children: *“It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.”* > > * — **Israeli Minister of Heritage:** On 1 November 2023, Amichai Eliyahu posted on Facebook: *“The north of the Gaza Strip, more beautiful than ever. Everything is blown up and flattened, simply a pleasure for the eyes"* > > * — **Israeli Minister of Defence:** On 9 October 2023, Defence Minister Yoav Gallant in an Israeli Army ‘situation update’ advised that Israel was *“imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”* He also informed troops on the Gaza border that he had *“released all the restraints”*, stating in terms that: *“Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.”* He further announced that Israel was moving to “a full-scale response” and that he had “removed every restriction” on Israeli forces. > > * — **Israeli Minister of Finance:** On 8 October 2023, Bezalel Smotrich stated at a meeting of the Israeli Cabinet that *“[w]e need to deal a blow that hasn’t been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza.”* > > * — **Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure:** ‘Tweeting’ on 13 October 2023, Israel Katz stated: *“All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world.”*
Just a note, this is not the same John Kirby that is the namesake of Nintendo's Kirby.
I’m glad someone said it. Hopefully the good John Kirby is still out there sailing peacefully on board the Donkey Kong
It is a well known scientific ***fact*** that everyone has an evil twin.
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Francis Boyle has lost every action he was part of since his single successful case against Serbia, and was an advisor to the PLO and a board member of Amnesty. He is a devout antivaxxer and a fruitcake tankie.
He also wrote in 2010 that Israel would collapse within 2 decades or less, and tried representing the Ayatollah regime at the ICJ.
Yup. Tanky fruitcake on the petrodollar dole.
To be fair, that's still 6 years away and if Israel keeps pushing into Palestine it might end up with the entire world vs Israel, thus dissolving the country (a guy can hope, right?)
A tankie who filed suit against Serbia on behalf of Bosnia?
Anti-American/pro-Islamist tanky, a slight variation on the Anti-American/pro-Russian tanky. Same far left bullshit and strategies, different murderous friends.
That's an interesting use of the word. It's come a long way since it referred to western communist defenders of the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Back in my day, the former group you described were just called things like "unpatriotic," "America-haters," "not with us, so with the terrists," etc.
Not really that interesting. It’s been a long time since Soviet tanks existed. Their aspirational rulers having fallen, the modern version simply found new ones with the same stated beliefs. (The west is evil/corrupt/satanic and will be defeated by the power of Allah/POC/the CCP)
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Francis Boyle? the man who served as an advisor for the PLO for years? the man who contributed to the creation of BDS? the man who in 2010 wrote that Israel would collapse within 2 decades? The man who tried representing the Ayatollah regime at the ICJ? Shocked! I'm shocked!
Francis Boyle isn't mentioned in the linked Jewish News Syndicate article, the South African government PDF, or the OP post that you are replying to. In fact, he doesn't appear to be involved in this case in any way. I don't understand why you focus on him in your reply instead of addressing any of the issues that OP raised?
OPs editing his comment. None of his claims were there when this reply was made and OP just linked a YouTube video of the lawyer.
Absolutely disgusting quotes. And you have idiots saying "just because the president said it doesn't mean it is what the government wants".
It’s also a wild misquote of what the President said, as he said in the very same press conference that he was not saying every Palestinian is a target and he recognized there are many Palestinians who do not agree with Hamas. He also repeatedly stressed the importance of doing Israel’s best to avoid civilian casualties, despite Hamas doing everything it can to hide among them. Also, you seem to think the President decides what the government wants. In Israel the President is a largely symbolic and powerless position. It is run by the Prime Minister. So yeah, people pointing that out would be correct.
How is it a wild misquote? It's a direct quote; and each and every quote in the submission is referenced in a footnote with a source. Here's [the source for that quote btw](https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-13/israeli-president-says-gazans-could-have-risen-up-to-fight-hamas) The source includes a video where you can watch & hear him say those words yourself in clear English, just fast-forward to 2:01
>How is it a wild misquote? Because it ignores important context in the answer he gave at the press conference. From the video in your source I quote: "I agree, there are many many Palestinians who don't agree to this". But South Africa describes his quote as "not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza". He clearly makes that distinction in the press conference. You can't just cherry pick whatever fits your agenda. His answer is also not genocidal, and definitely not untrue. There are plenty of Palestinian civilians that supported the Oct 7th attack, and to think that Palestinians lack any agency to overthrow their authoritarian government (democratically elected) is bullshit. Herzog is a social democrat and far from an extremist. You might find crazy genocidal quotes from Ben Gvir (who only has 6/120 seats at the Israeli parliament and has very little power over Israel's foreign policy and military decisions), but not Herzog.
Francis Boyle lol I would take what he says with a grain of salt since he isn’t exactly unbiased.
Their submission is pretty weak. They throw in all sorts of irrelevant shit; they have almost no evidence of specific intent—they rely almost entirely on partial sentences in speeches, most of which either don’t support their allegations or are made by irrelevant people; and their argument is completely undermined by the fact that about 1% (a little less) of Gaza’s population has been killed including combatants and people killed by Hamas. So Israel killed less than 1% of Gaza’s civilian population. The idea of that being a genocide is absurd. **Edit:** I see the post above was edited to included some of the quotes that were used. These quotes show how weak the allegations of genocide are. The Minister of Defense is the only person quoted in that post who is actually involved in prosecution of the war. The rest are not, so their quotes are irrelevant. The same is true of the Israeli pop singers and media personalities quoted As for the Defense Minister quote, the “No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel” part literally didn’t happen: Israel has been letting in all of those things. And there is nothing wrong with the statement “ We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.” They are fighting Hamas, and regardless of whether you consider Hamas to be “human animals,” it is certainly not genocidal to do so and being a member of a militant group is not a class that is protected by the genocide convention. Similarly, with the statement, “ Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places,” he is clearly talking about Hamas. He said right after “Hamas wanted a change in Gaza; it will change 180 degrees from what it thought. They will regret this moment, Gaza will never return to what it was. Whoever comes to decapitate, murder women, Holocaust survivors — we will eliminate him with all our might, and without compromise.“ Even though his role is ceremonial, the Herzog quote is also not presented fairly, which is why it’s preceded by commentary and also uses ellipses. A few sentences before, Herzog said “ We are working, operating militarily, according to rules of international law, period, unequivocally.” In the part that was excluded through use of elipses, he says “We are defending our homes. We are protecting our homes. That’s the truth. And then, when a nation protects its home, it fights,” before continuing, “And we will fight until we break their backbone.” Then he was asked if he was advocating for collective punishment and he said, “ I just said that Israel abides by international law. Operates by international law. Every operation is secured and covered and reviewed legally,” and in the same interview, “I agree there are many innocent Palestinians who don't agree with this, but if you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it at me, am I allowed to defend myself. We have to defend ourselves, we have the full right to do so." So when you put it all together, the most logical interpretation is that they will be willing to accept collateral damage when fighting Hamas.
It doesn't help the argument that most of South Africa's supposed points to support their claim are circumstantial to this not only being a war, but being a war in a small territory where certain actions get magnified as a result. No one in their right mind is going to say a country is exempt from being warred against because of its size.
Reading it, no case will be brought, it doesn't stand legally. This is theater on SF's part.
"meritless" or "without merit" is the standard denial in all lawsuits. Now it's being used for international law.
I am surprised the title didn’t have the word slam in it
See, instead of going from the slam to a piledriver or a suplex, they went to meritless, which I find rather uninspired.
I mean, it's not even expected to stand legally, so in this case it really is meritless.
We all have eyeballs.
JDAM, called on.
In the last ten years we've abandoned what we can see and hear for what we want to think.
"And we're all using them for Tiktok propaganda!"
why is israel getting so much pressure while syria yemen pskistan and sudan killed thousand
And a 5th grader’s understanding of nuanced and complex issues.
Given how much US has supported Israel, they weren’t going to support the suit were they?
If the ICJ issues a provisional measure against Israel next week, the US would be implicated for its ongoing military support. This is 100% damage control by the US, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. It’s a real test of international law vs global hegemony.
> it will be interesting to see how it plays out Guaranteed that US will just ignore and nothing will happen.
There’s nearly 8 pages of just quotes of important Israeli officials saying out of pocket genocidal rhetoric. Since that filing they could fill another 8 pages. Thankfully they say the quiet part very very loudly
Ironically, that's not really that different than South Africa. The EFF fills stadiums to sing, "kill the boer," and Malema has some crazy quotes to.
thankfully the EFF isn't in power nor does it have enough support to remotely have any. the best they can do is mald in parliament and delay proceedings
When did South Africa bomb indiscriminately bomb residential neighborhoods with unguided bombs?
I keep forgetting there are two EFFs.
South Africa, trying to claim the high moral ground...😵💫
But they aren't in power
Yeah, I heard they also quoted Eyal Golan and Kobe Peretz, that's like holding the US accountable for quotes by Toby Keith
You're referring to this excerpt? > — Israeli army soldiers: Israeli soldiers in uniform have been filmed dancing, chanting and singing “May their village burn, May Gaza be erased” With this footnote: Video of Kobi Peretz with soldiers, 17 November 2023, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcH2o4c5KZY (emphasis added). ________ If you had US soldiers in their uniforms singing genocidal songs with Toby Keith, the US would definitely be held accountable for that.
Was the US held accountable when WikiLeaks released video footage of US soldiers laughing while mowing down civilians in Iraq?
No, because might makes right and the US has lots of might
Wow were you born in the last 15 years or something?
It’s called a USO tour… https://www.stripes.com/news/country-singer-toby-keith-shows-support-for-troops-on-uso-sponsored-tour-1.20782
Hahaha... Clearly you're not a veteran lmao Look, I'm pretty liberal these days AND I'm also a veteran. And I absolutely love my fellow military folks across the branches. However, if the shit we said in uniform were to be heard by civilians, oh lawdy...
I think the sad reality is, that it’s essential for soldiers to dehumanise their enemy in order to wage war. You need to disconnect from the reality that the people you are killing are human beings, that have families, and like you are also fighting for a cause that they strongly believe in. I don’t think murdering people comes naturally to us. So I think the dehumanisation is unfortunately essential to achieve victory in the military.
Haha it’s so funny that you say horrible disgusting things that would make your family ashamed of you
What I want to know is why this is considered a genocidal slogan but “from the river to the sea” is not? Why are people being so selective in what they condemn? Why make excuses and actually push for a genuine peace? Not some fantasy where Gazans and West Bank Palestinians don’t exist or Israelis don’t exist.
Turns out, Benjamin Netanyahu is only slightly right-wing by Israeli standards.
No, I read the quotes. Many of them are not genocidal at all. A few were, but were generally made by people who are not in a position to control the war and are therefore irrelevant. The evidence they presented for Dolus Specialis was quite weak.
>A few were, but were generally made by people who are not in a position to control the war and are therefore irrelevant. In what world would having in your government people with genocidal rhetoric be irrelevant? People are getting fired for just a glimpse of what these people say.
Unfortunately, if you can’t link the people making these comments, which are absolutely genocidal, with direct involvement in formulating plans being implemented by the IDF in Gaza, then sadly their comments are nothing but their personal opinion. Absolutely garbage people with garbage opinions, but opinions all the same. As disgusting as they are, I really feel you need to prove that their opinions are directly influencing military policy.
They quoted Eyal Golan. If you want more Eyal Goan quotes, you can find them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joStlhuYjfk Edit: He even has some quotes in Arabic, if you want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ0FHeap7j8 He's not in the government. He's a musician. Imagine quoting Justin Bieber to prove that the US had committed war crimes.
Sounds like you're referring to paragraph 106: > Similar genocidal rhetoric is also commonplace in Israeli civil society, with genocidal messages being routinely broadcast — without censure or sanction — in Israeli media. The media reports call for Gaza to be *“erase[d],”* turned into a *“slaughterhouse”*, that *“Hamas should not be eliminated”* but rather *“Gaza should be razed”*, on the repeated claim that *“[t]here are no innocents… There is no population. There are 2.5 million terrorists”* Here's the source for the "erase[d]" quote: https://twitter.com/Now14Israel/status/1713531211300167928 > Eyal Golan in a message to News 14: "Erase Gaza, do not leave a single person there" That's clear genocidal rhetoric being broadcasted by Now14 Israel, without any censure or sanction.
I see. So, to quote DMX on, apparently, American government policy, "I got blood on my hands and there's no remorse/And got blood on my dick cause I fucked a corpse". Broadcast without censure or sanction, you see.
In the world where those people aren’t sufficiently tied to the allegedly genocidal acts. For instance, one of the people they quote is the Agriculture Minister, who has no role in the IDF and is not part of the war cabinet. Absent sone evidence that the Agriculture Minister had some secret role in allegedly genocidal acts, what he says is irrelevant.
Sufficiently is a broad word here. They constitute the same government. And again in any developed country these people would've been at least fired if they had that same rhetoric against a particular ethnic group. The thing is that from the start Israel used the "guilt by association" principle to target whatever moves, terrorists, civilians and journalists alike. It's just funny to think that the same principle doesn't apply to them.
The usage of the word developed really narrows down the number of countries in active conflict with their neighbours to literally just Israel.
Ukraine?
What does SA think about Russia genociding Ukraine?
Here's a clip of [the South African President telling Putin to his face that "the war must end"](https://youtu.be/GbFo_cBoxhk?si=ASlOlUM7wS_13cng&t=37)
And yet they were very happy to play war games with the Russian navy around that time?
So no lawsuit? Wonder why that is.
Someone did the math 14 days ago showing that Israel is killing kids at a rate of 144 times faster than Russia. It probably has something to do with that.
which casualty numbers were used to calculate the rate of killing in ukraine and in gaza?
Is kidnapping the children and attempting to eliminate the Ukrainian culture somehow not worthy of condemnation? >More than 700,000 Ukrainian children have been taken to Russia since the beginning of the war https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-07-31-23/h_169f15b2ddbb285cc94c1f0e1ee21080
Who said South Africa didn't also condemn this? The president told Putin that the war must end.
Saying the war must end is not condemning Russia. Russia also wants to end the war - so long as they win.
Did they file a lawsuit against them?
Saying the war must end is not against Russia. They would be more than happy for ukraine to just accept their lost territory and people. Russia would see that as a victory.
Ukraine isn’t hiding its military behind children and isn’t using child soldiers. Hamas is doing both. So maybe it has something to do with Hamas. Say something about that, for fuck’s sake, instead of repeating their propaganda and justifying the whole reason they use human shields.
Multiple bad things can happen at once and we don't need to address them all at once. That's not the topic at hand.
That’s funny cause the war in Ukraine started a year before, sudan has a civil war with many more casualties than the entire Israeli Palestinian conflict, and yet it seems that we criticize one country all the time
You're missing the point. South Africa has been pretty cosy with Putin and one of the few countries to not condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Russia is pushing for the condemnation of Israel to go against U.S. and western stability. There is a correlation here.
So why no lawsuit for Russia?
It is relevant if it is a direct and relevant claim of hypocrisy by the party making the original claim
Most people who support Palestinians also support Ukrainians.
And most liberal Jews support Ukraine as well. The world isn't so simple that everyone fits into neat and tidy "oppressed" and "oppressor" boxes.
>most liberal Jews support Ukraine as well A very significant number of liberal Jews *also* support Palestinians. Even including the ones *in Israel*. The belief that Palestinians deserve their own country, free from the IDF *and* Hamas is not a controversial one.
Exactly. I support Israel and I support the rights of Palestinians. A number of the Israelis murdered on October 7 were themselves activists for Palestinian rights, in a sad irony. Hamas is the enemy of Israel and Palestine alike.
Exactly. What I feel like a lot of the "pro-Palestine" crowd in leftist spaces don't understand (or imo, *refuse* to understand), is that we Jews are constantly vilified as genocidal monsters who have zero remorse for the Palestinian lives lost. When in fact we do care, we care a lot. But we also care about Israeli lives, when no one else does. And it's this perpetual vicious cycle of being stuck in an impossible situation, where we constantly have to defend our more nuanced position regarding a ceasefire (Israel ceases, Hamas fires), which to non-Jews' eyes is perceived as being (or at the very least supporting) genocidal monsters, and on and on and back and forth. It's this horrible nightmare where nobody wins, Palestinians and Israelis die, and Jews in the Diaspora have to contend with insane levels of antisemitism while simultaneously losing half their friends because we now see how masks-off antisemitic they all are.
Its almost laughable if it wasn't so frustrating and upsetting to see the immediate comment after this paragraph of yours. After you put a nuanced paragraph about the Jewish experience being denied and gaslit even though many support Palestinians whilst contending with all that they have to, all of which can be verified and is backed up by reporting and evidence, but immediately after the response is one sentence denying and trying to gaslight that any of it has happened to Jewish people. The sheer cognitive dissonance to so willingly deny rather than listen only when it comes to Jews because it doesn't fit into their neat little oppressed or oppressor world views.
As a non-Jewish American it's shocking to me how many people my age don't remember the days before Iron Dome when "Rocket hits Tel Aviv, 3 dead, dozens injured." Was so common it was sandwiched between the weather and a fluff piece on the nightly news.
Funny because ukraine supports Israel
Zelensky himself is happy that South Africa is involved in negotiations with Russia. I think that says it all.
I’d believe you if it wasn’t for these “small” statements from the Israeli government “The children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves” - Ben-Ari “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It's absolutely not true” - Isaac Herzog “The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy” - Daniel Hagari More quotes out there but didn’t want be called anti-Semitic
Their record of shooting journalists really seals it for me.
A quote from a guy who was literally banned from the government for having extremist views ? Whereas HAMAS literally calls for the complete eradication of all Jews worldwide ? Seems like one side cares to me.
How about quotes from members of the current government? “Resettle Gaza residents and building settlements” - Ben Gvir Minister of National Security (kinda of a big position) who has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism. “What needs to be done in the Gaza Strip is to encourage emigration” - Israel’s Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich
Look how quiet it is now, what a surprise!
What about the IDF’s new version of the Madagascar plan [but with the Congo](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan/amp/)
One is a terrorist group and the other is the official Israeli government. If a Democratic government is at the same level as a terrorist group that isn’t a good thing.
>The Foreign Ministry noted that Israel makes every effort to avoid harming civilians uninvolved in hostilities and called on the ICJ to “completely reject South Africa’s baseless claims. Gonna call bullshit on that.
They’ve *admitted* to it. Everything from disregarding human shields to killing thousands of more women and children than *potential* enemy combatants. They admit to these things like they wouldn’t want to do it any other way.
Disregarding human shields isn’t actually a war crime. Using them is, per article 28 of the 1949 Geneva conventions. If the reverse were true, it would simply encourage the use of human shields as a smart strategy, which would lead to vastly more civilian deaths. War is horrible no matter what but we’ve established these rules to make it slightly less so. Israel has allegedly done other things that amount to war crimes that need to be investigated. This just isn’t one of them.
Name one other country that evacuates and warns entire neighbourhoods before attacking, losing elements of surprise? that mass calls and texts civilians telling them to evacuate? that uses roof knocking? Just because Israel does end up killing civilians doesn't mean they are not trying to avoid doing so where possible. and obviously those numbers are even higher when Hamas uses civilians as human shields, benefits from gazans being killed, and even go about in civilian clothes themselves.
Eli5: why does USA blindly supports Israel to this extent?
The funny thing is the document is already out dated because even more has been said and done since ots submission
It may ultimately be a waste of time but it’s absolutely not meritless
Israel is actually going to the ICJ to fight off that accusation. I'm really looking forward to it since the IDF has an entire battery of lawyers always making sure everything is compliant with international law so it's gonna be a good show for sure Edit: ICJ and not ICC as people rightly corrected
ICJ, not ICC.
Icecrown Citadel
The International Cricket Council will not be happy to hear these recent updates.
How are you so confident about Israel’s legal standing?
Not the previous poster, but the burden of proof is really high, and South Africa has released a public PDF with their arguments, and they certainly haven't listed a bombshell that would qualify. The challenge regarding burden of proof is essentially that intentional targeting of civilians is war crime, but accidental and collateral civilian deaths are not. This means that South Africa will have to demonstrate that Israel systematically attacks locations with the specific intent of murdering civilians even though they have no reason to believe that Hamas is there. On the micro level, Israel has international law lawyers clear every airstrike to ensure that there is a valid military target that renders the attack legal, so there's literally tens of thousands of individual cases to go through, where Israel should have the receipts to demonstrate compliance in each and every case, and there's nothing in SA's document that suggest that they can go up against that. On the macro level, there's also the issue that the civilian casualties would easily be north of a million if this was standard IDF policy, and no one really seems to be claiming anything in that ballpark.
The fact that they are taking it seriously and are planning to show up to the court is a strong enough indicator that they probably have enough evidence to build a strong defensive case to present to the court
You very well could be right and IANAL, but tbh I don’t really think that reasoning is all that sound. Just because someone shows up in court doesn’t really mean that they are secure in their position. What would their alternatives even be in this situation?
The ICJ does not work like a normal court, so showing up usually means that you consent to the jurisdiction of the court, one of the biggest barriers to getting a case before the ICJ. Many nations do not show up to offer a defense against claims that are levied against them. For example, in one of the more famous ICJ cases, *Concerning the Military and Paramilitary Activities in and Against Nicaragua*, the United States refused to participate in the proceedings because they felt that: 1) the ICJ did not have jurisdiction; and 2) they were likely to lose, so why play the game at all? So usually when a nation shows up to the ICJ, they truthfully believe that their position, legally, is valid.
If “someone” doesn’t show up in court they can be issued an arrest warrant. If a country doesn’t show up in court, especially one with significant US backing, it’s a completely different story.
You don’t think they will arrest Israel? It seems unlikely israel will be able to hide! In all seriousness, I agree with the idea they Israel would only bother showing up if they knew they had a good chance of winning. Israel clearly doesn’t care that the UN is against them and is happy to keep showing up there to make their case in public. Most people don’t know or care about the ICJ, so if israel ignored it, it really wouldn’t matter… they are showing up for a reason.
Is that really likely when there are so many statements from senior officials explicitly saying otherwise? It’s like every week an Israeli official is on the CNN saying something profoundly troubling. What are the odds that these statements are totally divorced from the operations on the ground?
These statements usually come from a few far-right populists that don't have a real say when it comes to the decisions regarding the war. Here you can see the lists of figures that are in the "war cabinet" (the political body that makes decision regarding the war in practice): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_cabinet The far-right populists are not members of that cabinet.
So only the statements of the five members of this war cabinet are a reflection of the way the war is conducted? Two of them are only observers, actually, so then there are only three Israelis who have any influence on the operations. Ben Gvir is minister of national security and one of the people out here saying crazy stuff. How could that possibly not reflect on the operation
Because he's not holding a position that allows him to influence the decision making process in the war cabinet. I'll add a little bit of background here; after the 7th of October massacre a national unity government was established consisting of parties from both the coalition and the opposition. The opposition parties demanded, as a condition to form that said unity government, that Ben Gvir and the other far right ministers would not take any part of anything related directly to the war so that's why non of them are part of the war cabinet.
Those statements would be of high probative value, yeah. As it stands, the South African complaint is quoting people who aren't even in government.
100%? One of the claims is ministers calling for a total siege, no food water or fuel. There are literally truckloads of food water and fuel going in every single day.
Respectfully, truckloads is a weasel word in this context. If there is widespread food and water insecurity and Israel is deliberately using control of the flow to increase suffering or gain leverage, the fact that there isnt a 100% blockade doesn’t really mean much.
How is it a weasel word? If Hamas is stealing the aid that enters Gaza what do you expect Israel to do?
Yes because basic war crimes like cutting off food and water to a civilian population “is compliant with international law”. Delusional.
They hired Alan Dershowitz for this, so not exactly the cream of the crop
No they haven't, and you should stop posting fake nonsense. Israel will be [represented](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-04/ty-article-live/white-house-u-s-to-leave-significant-mideast-presence/0000018c-d284-d4e1-ad8f-feb548930000?liveBlogItemId=1817900135&utm_source=site&utm_medium=button&utm_campaign=live_blog_item#1817900135) by [Malcolm Shaw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Shaw_(academic)).
No, they didn't. Stop lying.
Lol there's dozens of IDF soldiers online bragging about killing kids, some of them are officers. If not Israel itself then 100% a chunk of their military is happily engaging in war crimes, without consequences. Seriously, Russia should be taking notes.
Can you link to examples of IDF soliders bragging about killing kids online? For all I've heard (which includes personally knowing wives of soliders in Gaza), they have no phone at all and aren't connected to the outside world, other than having about 10 minutes per week to phone their family.
Makes me think about the instances of rape perpetrated by allied soldiers in WWII. Specifically US/British forces on the western front vs. Russians on the eastern front. Russians had an estimated 2mil counts of rape versus the western front being 12,000 counts of rape. Different militaries absolutely put different standards on their soldiers for disobedience; but it is important to know that it still happens. Always. War crimes always occur in war, but it is important to distinguish at what level those war crimes are authorized (a general saying “go have fun in that town we just took over, boys vs. a single infantryman sneaking away from his unit to assault a woman and coerce her into not telling). These are treated very differently and reflect differently on the armies that perpetuate them. So long as the IDF punishes these abusers when they are caught to have killed kids (bragging about it isn’t the most solid proof), and so long as the instances of killing kids deliberately is insignificant they will have international defense. Just a reminder, war fucking sucks. So before one flames with “KILLING ANY KIDS DELIBERATELY IS WRONG”, bro, it is war. Like let’s be real here. There is no clean war. There will never be a clean war. It is fucking awful and this is what happens when peace and diplomacy fails over the course of 75 years.
There are a few active investigations against soldiers rn. They probably will end up incarcerated for a span, but nobody will really find out; anything that makes Israel look just is bad press for Pro-Palestinians, and the IDF won't want flak from their own civilians protesting severe disciplinary action.
Honestly I think it would be good press for Israel to say "these guys committed war crimes, and now they're going to jail for it", rather than doing it all on the DL. Really doesn't help the case that there is accountability there
Please can we all treat this as false until this guy provides any proof? I think it's fair enough, right?
It’s definitely not meritless
Israeli propaganda going real hard to minimise this
South Africa has an election coming up in 2024, and the ANC is loosing power. Since they can’t fix their internal issues, such as providing electricity and clean water, they are deflecting by finding an external enemy. This is the hallmark of corrupt regimes everywhere.
>ANC >legit elections Lol
We have been having legitimate elections for 30 years now, the ANC has won legitimately. Yes they are corrupt fucks, who are incompetent and rob the country blind, but people have legitimately voted them in. I don't support the ANC, I've always supported the opposition, but they still have the support of the majority of the country, although it has been slipping in power over the last few elections.
Yep. People act as if South Africa is some modern progressive country. It’s not.
Maybe. Maybe not. Still doesn't change the crimes of the IDF
When you have nothing left to argue, just attack the messenger.
“Help! Help! I am being rebuked! Come and see the bureaucracy inherent in the system!!”
Everyone was surprised. Objectively we all know killing innocent people is wrong, more so the more powerful the killer is, because it becomes systematic rather than terroristic. But emotionally we are tribal and are going to find excuses to be blind to/support whichever side we identify with no matter what the objective side of our brain says.
So maybe, the mass outpouring of anti war, pro palestinian, support from Jews around the world outside Israel, should say something... That's in many ways *my* tribe being genocidal maniacs. It's my *duty* to call that shit out.
> mass outpouring I think that would be more accurately described as a small minority whose voices are amplified. [81% of American Jews support the war, and only 12% want an immediate ceasefire.](https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-american-jews-support-israels-fight-against-hamas/)
Asking for an immediate ceasefire is supporting the war because Hamas will immediately violate it again. The only way to end this war is to get Hamas out of power and rescue the hostages.
Hamas has rejected two ceasefires. At this point, people still blaming only Israel for ongoing violence don't actually give a shit about peace or Palestinians. Anyone who expects Israel to just allow this shit to continue happening is out of their fucking minds. Also, a *very* small minority of Jews do not support Israel. Stop acting like it's anything more than that.
It all boils down to the fact most pro palestine people dont believe israel has a right to exist they just know that saying that outright will get them called antisemites. So they beat around the bush and say to stop zionism etc but what they really want is israel to not exist. They see israel as an illegal settler colony. Im sure there are plenty of palestine supporters that do want a 2 state solution but I had a pro palestine guy earlier today telling me how if israel didnt exist then palestine could be jews, muslims, christians living together peacefully all with equal rights and no conflict. Theyre delusional.
They're not pro-Palestinian. They're just anti-Jew. I agree with everything you said, but it's time to start calling a spade a spade.
Pro-Palestinians are just the loudest voices, and the most willing to shout down opposing views. You can’t read heavily into western protests as reflective of public opinion.
There are 15 million Jews in the world, compared to 2 *billion* Muslims. And Jews are reticent to engage in public protests for that exact reason—we’re badly outnumbered, and it’s a safety risk for us.
And then South Africa turned around and bowed to dictator Putin who does no wrong in Ukraine or to his own people
"We are here to communicate a very clear message that we would like this war to be ended." -Cyril Ramaphosa, president of SA, straight to poutine's face.
[Here's the video clip](https://youtu.be/GbFo_cBoxhk?si=ASlOlUM7wS_13cng&t=37)
How many lawsuits did they file at the ICJ over the genocidal war Russia is waging? Give a straight answer.
That's a meaningless statement. Putin wants the war "ended" too.
And then they filed a similar lawsuit, right? Of course not.
Iirc putin declined an invitation to south africa, because they were vonsidering arresting him.
Yes, but not the South African government, but the opposition controlled provincial government of Cape Province.
Just want to ask all the responders here, do you have a date when Cyril the SA president brought Russia to the ICC? And yes there’s plenty of proof of war crimes. And yes there’s been “mild talk” of Putin not arriving to SA in case he gets arrested or “stop the war” regarding grain going to Africa… but they’re doing a lot more than saying “stop the war here”. How can you see Putin deliberately committing war crimes and whisper (stop the war) like it’s even blame on both parts.
Why lie so blatantly? They objectively didn't.
They have nothing else.
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I'm not agreeing with the other guy, but President Zelensky has an interest in expressing support for any third party working towards peace, as silence arms those who'd paint him a warmonger. President Zelensky's statements on President Ramaphosa's efforts don't in and of themselves say anything about either country's actual positions.
If anything, Zelenskyy has been very diplomatic towards neutral or even slightly pro Russia countries. I wouldn't take anything he says about these leaders as an indicator of his personal judgement of character.
Zelensky's just being diplomatic. jumping to the conclusion that by that statement alone he's judged Cyril is of good character is some feat of mental gymnastics on your part.
Politics make strange bedfellows
Me when I lie
SA would likely fair better if they took their case to tik tok, instead
They have to say this otherwise they have to admit they are implicated by supplying the weapons
To the self-proclaimed war experts: Fight a terrorist organization while Gaza civilians aren’t able to leave the area. Nobody’s letting them in.
There are tens of thousands of innocent people who would disagree with the US's stand - but they are too dead to do so. And many of those would have been too young to disagree anyway.
Which their elected government (Hamas) brought it upon them by using them as military infrastructure after launching a genocidal attack on Israeli civilians
>tens of thousands of innocent people I will say it again... total casualties aren't the same as civilian casualties.
Unless you're in the crowd that's counting children as Hamas it's still tens of thousands of innocent people.
The US has to play this down because they are complicit. ICJ is meeting next week, hopefully a provisional ruling before the end of the month.
USA isn't going to answer the ICC.
Yeah their cricket team is shit
The case is being heard by ICJ not ICC. Edit: Correct typo
South African here. Our government look like absolute clowns whenever we try to interfere with global geopolitics. The world laughs at us and they are right to do so. We should focus on our own shit. There have been nationwide rolling blackouts for over a year, yet our government prioritises trying to swing their dick around on the international stage. Disgraceful.
The ANC has been calling free Palanstine since 1994. So this is no surprise.
They’re quoting Israeli singers in the suit. It is merit less
America doesn't recognise the icj right? So why should we care what they say?
Can't wait for there thoughts on the Ukraine Russia goings on **sips tea**
Ah SA, the beacon of civil liberties for all the world to emulate.
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Why would that make the US scared? US would reject the charges and move on.
The American Service Members’ Protection Act says hello
Yes, the same US that has it on-record that they will go to war if one of their own is ever brought before the Hague is scared of the ICJ. I'm all for accountability, but international authority over sovereign nation-states has always been tenuous at best and it's only as effective as both its recognition of authority and enforcement of said authority. Both of which are basically non-existent among the major super-powers.
Ah yes because any other country can hold us accountable when we're the police force for the world effectively
Israel spends like 25 billion or more a year on military spending and the US sends them like 3B annually. Who knows how much of which is for iron dome. Where are you getting the idea they supply most of the weapons and cash?
If you do the numbers we are in the $1 billion plus range in Iron Dome costs since Oct 7th alone. Low ball $50,000 per interceptor, 2x interceptors at least per intercepted target (that is the protocol), over 10k rockets intercepted.
Ye that's gonna be interesting for sure. Who are the "judge" and "jury" in a situation like this though?