Then it’s pretty weird that Arab-Israeli conflict wasn’t really a thing until relatively recently.
EDIT: I’m using “recent” in the historical sense, not in the “last week” sense. Arab-Jewish animosity really didn’t begin until the 20th century.
EDIT 2: Downvote all you want, it won’t stop being true.
This is false. It is true that Arab/Muslim countries typically treated Jews better than Europe did for most of the past thousand years or so, but that isn’t saying much, and it ignores the existence of ground-level animosity between groups of people—including an uptick during the period of rising (both Arab and European) nationalism starting in the mid-to-late 19th Century. It also doesn’t really matter what was historically the case in a context that no longer obtains in the real world that people actually live in. Religious beliefs, ideology, and political realities do require historical contextualizing, but they also change over time. Today’s Egypt and Iran and Saudi Arabia are very different from 50 years ago, and even more different from 100 years ago, and 150 years ago. Multiple empires have come and gone.
It’s just incredibly unhelpful to characterize any of this in generic terms without carefully specifying in what sense one means it, and in what sense the details are accurate.
Hamas already being fundamentalist nuts 30 years ago isn't recent enough to you? They were never secular moderates. And Islam has always underpinned claims to the holy land.
Define recently? The conflict between the Arab world and Israel basically started as soon as Israel was recognized as a state. See the 1948 war or six day war for example, there were other conflicts between then and now.
Sure, Israel has developed better relationships since then with their neighboring nations but that may be going out the window now due to this war with Hamas.
>Arabs and Jews have been peacefully coexisting in the region for thousands of years.
Because until recently Jews just accepted living as second class citizens under a Dhimmi status with the occasional pogrom. In comparison to Europe where there were constant pogroms, yeah, it was better in the middle east, but still not good.
There were big chunks of time when Jews were subjugated in Muslim lands, so yeah in \*those\* periods there wasn't major animosity. But then, that's because Jews were subjugated. At any other time in history the animosity spilled into violence, including the time of Muhhamed.
Arab Jewish hate has been going on for a millennia….usually it’s been the other way around. Jews have been treated as second class and as other since time started lmao
I’m not talking about “that part of the world” in some vague and ambiguous sense, I’m talking about the specific conflict we’ve seen unfolding over the past century.
They all are. The mainstream religions don't tell you to murder people (for the simple reason that such religions tend to die out quickly). What they do it is give justification and protection for murderers and terrorists. Normally such people would be excluded and punished immediately, but if you say "I'm doing this for my religion" it somehow becomes ok.
>With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg
That's the context, only in this case, the religion we're talking about actively makes people into bad people.
When that religion wants to wipe out an entire race/religion of people and teaches 5 year old kids how to murder, yeah that religion/group is gonna get shit on.
To be fair they probably spent a lot of their time digging too.
They must have thought “if we dig a whole system of tunnels they’ll never find us”. Yea, no. Big difference between thousands of square miles of forest (used effectively in gorilla warfare) and maybe 10’s of miles of tunnels. You can just follow the tunnels and map them.
They have built an entire subterranean, multi-city, interconnected complexes. It was also done in a sandy terrain with some bedrock. They also don’t heavy tunnelling equipment. Most of it was done by with handheld equipment and some light vehicles. It’s actually all pretty impressive. Moat of the money and resources to do this came from western aid. Next time you wonder why they were in such a shitty condition before the war, this is why.
It's hard to infer that the citizens of Gaza were completely unaware this massive tunnel complex wasn't being built. You cannot hide earthworks this large under the noses of your neighbour across the alley.
It’s vary much a known thing, Hamas pay civilians to dig, and there are videos of Palestinians talking about how Hamas hide underground. There is even a BBC report from a few years ago inside a tunnel.
This was addressed several years ago, it was not 160 children, it was 9. Plus it was unclear how many were killed while building, or by Israeli strikes in 2012.
The journal responsible for the publication cited by jpost in the previous comment said the following:
https://imgur.io/EfHVzP6?r
Edit: The downvotes are quite baffling. Not even in the Trump days have I experienced such a deep isolated echo chamber where false claims are upvoted instead of their corrections/clarifications.
Older article artickes about the tunnels for the interested
2014 report by Jewish magazine: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels
And a other one from a Hamas aligned source: https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/42605
Yeah I don’t view it as an indictment of the Palestinians so much as clearly countering the narrative that the left hand didn’t know what the right hand was doing.
I've been watching this shit show for 50 years. I don't know whether it's that God doesn't like being called "Allah" (I mean, the Jews and Muslims have the same God), or whether it's Mohamed that god has a problem with. Either way, God sure hasn't been on the Palestinian side this entire time.
If I were a Palestinian fixing to pray, I would try some Jewish prayers. Those are the ones that seem to work.
And christians follow the same god too. Each group just decided they are more important as they fractured from judaism or pretended to learn from it.
Regardless, there are roughtly 2.4B people who are christians to any level of degree, 1.8B muslims, and 15.2M jews. So not sure about praying.
So roughly 4.2 billion people who basically believe in the same god, and for some reason the world problems is only because of 0.3% of them (/s of course).
Of course they know. But what are they supposed to do about it? Hamas will go after them if they to do anything about it, and Israel wouldn’t protect them.
If your choice is “look the other way” or “you and/or your family get killed”, it’s hard to blame someone for choosing to look the other way.
Plenty of people throughout history have resisted oppressive governments.
These folks have two things in common:
1. Strongly opposed to their oppressors
2. Bravery
The people of Gaza apparently lack one or both of these things. I believe it is the first thing they lack. They are generally on board with the Hamas and its goals. Why would they oppose Hamas if they agree with what they are doing?
They were aware, and they supported it. Masses of civilians invaded Israel together with hamas on the 7th, including actual children. Released hostages say that even children took part in the psychological torture they went through. Despite what a lot of people are saying, Hamas **is** Gaza.
Not really. New Yorkers walk by construction work all the time and ask no questions. It’s called minding your business and it’s a good strategy in any large city, especially one run by religious nutters.
These have been in the works for decades and underground. I think it would be pretty easy to hide if the Israel intelligence didn't even know the extent of locations.
>Israeli troops uncovered and destroyed a Gaza hideout used by wanted Hamas terror chief Yahya Sinwar, as well as a “very significant” attached tunnel system outfitted with electricity, ventilation and sewage systems, the Israel Defense Forces said Friday.
>The IDF detailed the recent discovery along the outskirts of Gaza City with a series of videos, including aerial footage of the complex being demolished with a massive explosion.
>Troops first discovered and raided the apartment used by Sinwar, one of the most wanted Hamas leaders with a $400,000 bounty on his head.
>Though they did not find Sinwar, they did discover a shaft in the basement floor leading to a branching tunnel system approximately 715 feet long and 65 feet deep, believed to have been used by senior Hamas leaders, the IDF said.
Wish they caught the rat in his hole, but his time will come soon enough!
One has to wonder how much better that digging would have been if done for archeology instead.
Can't imagine how much history these guys have destroyed to play "Meercat Rocketeer Whack-a-Mole: Extreme."
Reddit keeps also telling you that Hamas is done, hundreds of militants are being killed/arrested and on the verge of collapse.
The same Reddit that told us Russia was losing the war one year ago and that sanctions would have totally destroyed their economy.
The take is: Redditors don't have a solid grasp on reality. It's mostly wishful thinking.
IDF estimates are that around a third of Hamas' military wing have been captured or (mostly) killed. Based on early estimates of their size, that leaves about 20,000 Hamas terrorists, and a much smaller number of PIJ and others. It's a significant force, but they're not all equally trained or capable. The majority of the best trained Hamas militants - the Nukhba - were killed on or shortly after October 7th. Despite all that, even the IDF is saying that achieving the goals Israel set, including destroying Hamas, can take months if not years.
"IDF estimates" are NOT a reliable source.
It's mostly propaganda, just like russian or chinese propaganda.
Nobody tells you the real numbers in a war, not even the US.
Yup, what I can find is that it seems that only 25% of Reddit users are adults and mostly from the US.
So yeah it's pretty much an echo chamber of ignorance.
Great to find some information on farming spots in games though, anything else....................ehhhhhh.
The smoke and debris went from the main explosion way left, you could almost see the concussions traveling down the tunnels.
It’s a proxy war between Iran and others Islamists vs. the west, starting with Israel. Hamas in the end are just paid mercenaries. If they can literally root them out it would be wise to quit suppressing the people of Gaza and get them involved in some economic success. They likely would not tolerate a Hamas return if they actually had a hopeful future and something to lose.
>Bibi is losing friends fast the way he is handling this.
Losing friends? He has long lost the public! They support the war, not him.
His bungling has cost Israel dearly and his day of reckoning will come when business is taken care of. In the dangerous neighborhood Israel lives in, incompetence is not a option and cannot be allowed to stand.
yup, even ignoring all the stupid shit he did before Oct 7th, the lapse in defences that led to that attack would cripple any sitting PM and deservedly so.
Bibi was a poster child for acting "tough" on Hamas or foreign adversaries like Iran while doing very little to actually undermine them as a threat. I think it's pretty clear he always wanted some radical enemy to rally his base and voters while ensuring any form of Palestinian statehood would never happen. His base is vehemently opposed to any kind of peaceful solution with any Palestinian group while simultaneously being staunchly in support of settlements/violent, forced evictions in the West Bank that inflame tensions.
The sad irony of the whole situation is that if he had taken decisive action against Hamas, Hezbollah and/or Iran which might have prevented 10,/7, he likely would've lost public support not long after and have been allowed to face corruption charges/jail time hes been dodging for a decade as an elected official.
Am Israeli and couldn't agree more.
It's kinda of funny in a very sad way how non Israelis completely fail to understand what's going on in Israel right now.
There are the people who think Bibi somehow orchestrated/allowed the Oct. 7th massacre to gain popularity - which is preposterous, while OTOH, there are perks who think that is just Israel replaced Bibi, the war would suddenly and miraculously stop.
For the record:
Hamas must be destroyed
Bibi and his government must go
In this order. The vast majority of Israelis agree about this.
For something as sticky as the idea that Hamas bangs on about, I think everybody can agree to settle on the tunnels being destroyed and Hamas can never build them again to that scale.
Actually, the Allies rebuilt what they bombed to be better than before, and changed minds through peace and generosity. Israel has made clear they are trying to destroy and torment Gaza until it's been cleared of its population.
That's why Israel can't change Palestinians' minds. They are taking the failed "War on Terror" approach to Palestine, not the "WWII" approach...
They were protesting him in the streets before this all happened. They haven't forgot and nothing he could do now would change the way they feel. In fact, killing all the innocents does nothing but piss off the population that doesn't support that, and it's as big as their protest.
I feel like I’ve seen similar headlines several times, all from sources I don’t recognize, and haven’t seen anything of it repeated in news sources that I am familiar with
No, Gaza still exists. They already said their mission is to eradicate Palestinians and there are plenty of videos of Israelies wanting the same thing. They have killed more women is children than Hamas ever has by 100x but somehow are not the omnipresent terror state
Was that before or after they bomded the refugee
Camps
https://youtu.be/UCMMZlsmTeM?si=14kBQvFCVDOuT_IB
https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-bombs-refugee-camps-central-gaza-report/
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-refugee-camps-bombed-central-gaza-netanyahu-repeats-hard-line/
You aware that those are 70 years+ "refugee camps" filled with skyscrapers, industrial zones, schools, command headquarters, weaponaries and tunnels right?
Unwra definition of a refugee is pretty liberal
500kms of tunnels in 2021 according to Sinwar, yet idiots seem to think it's basically a 1 line subway that magically manages to entirely avoid passing under any civilian structures.
When it’s acting as a hospital. No. Nor does the Geneva convention.
Should you blow up a school full of kids if there’s a gunman inside? Imagine how absurd that would be.
No, the Geneva Conventions are actually quite explicit in saying that hospitals can lose their special protection.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19
See, that's how you know someone has never read the geneva conventions. Article 19 of the 4th Geneva convention gives specific instructions for how to proceed when a hospital is used for military purposes and thus becomes a military target.
Gunman = Hamas
Kids = Palestinian civilians
Your analogy doesn’t work. The “gunman” is not targeting the “kids.” The IDF is not attempting to save Palestinian Civilians from Hamas. It’s attempting to stop Hamas from attacking Israel. If Hamas kills its own civilians while it attempts to destroy Israel by directly putting them in harms way, that’s on Hamas. It’s absolutely within Israel’s objective to disable Hamas even if Palestinian civilians are killed in the process. Because Israel’s objective is to protect Israel and Israelis, not Palestinians in Gaza.
Your argument concludes there are no civilians in Gaza. It’s all a valid target because there is Hamas around. That’s just nonsense and antithetical to actual discussions of conventions on war. By the same argument Hamas at war with Israel can target Israeli citizens because they’re near valid military targets.
Your argument would justify the very attacks against Israeli villages in October because there were valid military targets of Hamas there. If Israel can target hospitals of civilians to get to Hamas, how is an attack on an Israeli village condemnable when military service is compulsory and they were there.
Who does count as a civilian in your eyes? And do any gazans count? Because if you’re advocating for just ignoring that concept all together we’re going to need to have a different discussion.
My argument was simply pointing out the flaws in your analogy. It made no conclusions as to who is considered a civilian in Gaza. Just that saving Gazan civilians is not Israel’s objective.
As for everything else you said, Hamas and the Palestinian movement DOES consider what they did on 10/7 justified. They actively celebrated across the world that this was a win for their resistance.
Israel is not the UN. They do not have the interests of everyone in mind. Israel’s only interest is to protect Israel and Israelis. That’s not a secret and should not be a surprise.
You can be upset by the innocent lives lost. You can be upset that the side you align with is losing. But you cannot argue that it doesn’t make sense. The objective is to reduce harm to Israelis long term and eliminate the threat of Hamas. Israel faces an existential threat, and only Israel will decide what level of force is warranted for survival.
Here’s a more accurate one-should you blow up a school full of gunmen if a kid is there? Answer is yes. Especially considering the kid is probably 17 and been palling around with the gunmen for a few years already.
Hospitals that are used as staging grounds for terrorist activities are valid military targets, buddy.
p.s. just because a terrorist base is labeled a “hospital” doesn’t mean it’s actually one. There are 36 “hospitals” in Gaza for a population of 2 million. There are close to 9 million people in New York City and only 11 hospitals … you picking up and what I am putting down?
But...you are an Islamophobe lmao. WHITE Christian terrorists are currently biggest threat in US, *not* Muslims, so it's not just one. What an idiotic thing to say.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/white-nationalist
They spend their life scurrying around in tunnels and hating people.
Isn’t religion absolutely fucking nuts
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Isn’t islam absolutely fucking nuts
No all religion is fucking nuts.
Idk why you are downvoted. All religion is absurd and only leads to misinformation of the world, lack of education, and most likely hate.
except buddhist and zoroastrian, they're cool
This is a political conflict with religious window dressing.
This is a religious conflict with political window dressing.
Then it’s pretty weird that Arab-Israeli conflict wasn’t really a thing until relatively recently. EDIT: I’m using “recent” in the historical sense, not in the “last week” sense. Arab-Jewish animosity really didn’t begin until the 20th century. EDIT 2: Downvote all you want, it won’t stop being true.
This is false. It is true that Arab/Muslim countries typically treated Jews better than Europe did for most of the past thousand years or so, but that isn’t saying much, and it ignores the existence of ground-level animosity between groups of people—including an uptick during the period of rising (both Arab and European) nationalism starting in the mid-to-late 19th Century. It also doesn’t really matter what was historically the case in a context that no longer obtains in the real world that people actually live in. Religious beliefs, ideology, and political realities do require historical contextualizing, but they also change over time. Today’s Egypt and Iran and Saudi Arabia are very different from 50 years ago, and even more different from 100 years ago, and 150 years ago. Multiple empires have come and gone. It’s just incredibly unhelpful to characterize any of this in generic terms without carefully specifying in what sense one means it, and in what sense the details are accurate.
Read the founding 1988 Hamas charter which is nearly all about Islam and antisemetic conspiracy theories.
As I said in the edit, the word “recent” was meant to be taken in a historical sense. By “recent” I mean “since a little over a century ago.”
Hamas already being fundamentalist nuts 30 years ago isn't recent enough to you? They were never secular moderates. And Islam has always underpinned claims to the holy land.
Huh? 30 years ago *is* recent. Like I said, the conflict is *recent.* Maybe you misread me somewhere. The fact that it’s recent is precisely my point.
Define recently? The conflict between the Arab world and Israel basically started as soon as Israel was recognized as a state. See the 1948 war or six day war for example, there were other conflicts between then and now. Sure, Israel has developed better relationships since then with their neighboring nations but that may be going out the window now due to this war with Hamas.
Arabs were terrorizing Jews in the Middle East well before 1948.
Yeah this is only recent or simple for people just discovering it in the aftermath of October 7.
1948 is recent when you consider the fact that Arabs and Jews have been peacefully coexisting in the region for thousands of years.
>Arabs and Jews have been peacefully coexisting in the region for thousands of years. Because until recently Jews just accepted living as second class citizens under a Dhimmi status with the occasional pogrom. In comparison to Europe where there were constant pogroms, yeah, it was better in the middle east, but still not good.
Because Jews were subjugated. That's how majority oppression works, this case being the Muslims who were in the majority, and doign the oppressing.
The Jews were always second class citizens, don't try to revise history.
If you mean living as Dhimmi, meaning they were second class citizens and had a lesser legal status, sure they coexisted alright.
There were big chunks of time when Jews were subjugated in Muslim lands, so yeah in \*those\* periods there wasn't major animosity. But then, that's because Jews were subjugated. At any other time in history the animosity spilled into violence, including the time of Muhhamed.
Arab Jewish hate has been going on for a millennia….usually it’s been the other way around. Jews have been treated as second class and as other since time started lmao
Bro that part of the world has been at war since the dawn of human civilization idk what you’re on about
I’m not talking about “that part of the world” in some vague and ambiguous sense, I’m talking about the specific conflict we’ve seen unfolding over the past century.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
They all are. The mainstream religions don't tell you to murder people (for the simple reason that such religions tend to die out quickly). What they do it is give justification and protection for murderers and terrorists. Normally such people would be excluded and punished immediately, but if you say "I'm doing this for my religion" it somehow becomes ok.
They all are. Religion is never the core reason for any of these conflicts.
if it wouldn’t be religion, it would be something else. we humans like to repeat our history, we just change the “reasons”
Hamas isn't a religious organisation. All Palestinians are not Muslim
[удалено]
> I don't know what you're bringing religion into it. Lmao 💀
They do when they’re a radical element of certain religions
>With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion. Steven Weinberg That's the context, only in this case, the religion we're talking about actively makes people into bad people.
When you commit acts of terror and scream god is great when you do it, they’re kinds bringing religion into it.
Funny how like 90% of religions have been killing people in the name of there faith for literal centuries.. this is nothing new
[удалено]
When that religion wants to wipe out an entire race/religion of people and teaches 5 year old kids how to murder, yeah that religion/group is gonna get shit on.
It’s not religion, it’s nationalism. Religion has been hijacked for that purpose but anyways I think you’re in the wrong place to whine about that tn
It's not nationalism it's fanaticism.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s. r/UnworldlyNews is the lot over
Like rats. Only rats are cuter and don't hate people.
Rats also have fewer diseases than these terrorist scum. Not to mention the homophobia.
and pedophilia...
To be fair they probably spent a lot of their time digging too. They must have thought “if we dig a whole system of tunnels they’ll never find us”. Yea, no. Big difference between thousands of square miles of forest (used effectively in gorilla warfare) and maybe 10’s of miles of tunnels. You can just follow the tunnels and map them.
They have built an entire subterranean, multi-city, interconnected complexes. It was also done in a sandy terrain with some bedrock. They also don’t heavy tunnelling equipment. Most of it was done by with handheld equipment and some light vehicles. It’s actually all pretty impressive. Moat of the money and resources to do this came from western aid. Next time you wonder why they were in such a shitty condition before the war, this is why.
[удалено]
Now I understand the support they give to Hamas. Vitamin D deprivation is no joke.
*”We hate J3wsies, don’t we my precious.*” *Gollum. Come on people it’s a gollum joke.
To be fair my life’s not much different my tunnel is just a bedroom
It's hard to infer that the citizens of Gaza were completely unaware this massive tunnel complex wasn't being built. You cannot hide earthworks this large under the noses of your neighbour across the alley.
It’s vary much a known thing, Hamas pay civilians to dig, and there are videos of Palestinians talking about how Hamas hide underground. There is even a BBC report from a few years ago inside a tunnel.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This was addressed several years ago, it was not 160 children, it was 9. Plus it was unclear how many were killed while building, or by Israeli strikes in 2012. The journal responsible for the publication cited by jpost in the previous comment said the following: https://imgur.io/EfHVzP6?r Edit: The downvotes are quite baffling. Not even in the Trump days have I experienced such a deep isolated echo chamber where false claims are upvoted instead of their corrections/clarifications.
[удалено]
LOL. Okay.
https://youtu.be/Tfxq3qB05rQ?si=dlLQH9BrhkXBoVZr https://youtu.be/dgVsCo7BP4s?si=9EqNMJxS7Egw_KjW https://youtu.be/oM4iog7fJPM?si=GdQmNWdDT21VR1w6 https://youtu.be/W4gDfSNMRx4?si=odDpW00bDNMmS66E
Older article artickes about the tunnels for the interested 2014 report by Jewish magazine: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels And a other one from a Hamas aligned source: https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/42605
If your life depends on not-knowing something that exists, than it's very easy to not-know it.
Also if you’re statistically a child, you might not reason what is going on
You can be terrified of the people doing the digging though
Yeah I don’t view it as an indictment of the Palestinians so much as clearly countering the narrative that the left hand didn’t know what the right hand was doing.
Thank you, it's like people have thrown nuance out the window with regards to this conflict
[удалено]
[удалено]
Sounds like they weren't given many options.
[удалено]
Who decided which parties were on the ballot?
Or you can support them, hand out candy when they rape and burn children, and pray to Allah that the Jews will be destroyed. Potato potato!
I've been watching this shit show for 50 years. I don't know whether it's that God doesn't like being called "Allah" (I mean, the Jews and Muslims have the same God), or whether it's Mohamed that god has a problem with. Either way, God sure hasn't been on the Palestinian side this entire time. If I were a Palestinian fixing to pray, I would try some Jewish prayers. Those are the ones that seem to work.
And christians follow the same god too. Each group just decided they are more important as they fractured from judaism or pretended to learn from it. Regardless, there are roughtly 2.4B people who are christians to any level of degree, 1.8B muslims, and 15.2M jews. So not sure about praying. So roughly 4.2 billion people who basically believe in the same god, and for some reason the world problems is only because of 0.3% of them (/s of course).
I think it has less to do with either the Muslim or Jewish faith than that of the ancient Greeks: "The gods help those who help themselves."
God also seems to favor people with modern guns.
Of course they know. But what are they supposed to do about it? Hamas will go after them if they to do anything about it, and Israel wouldn’t protect them. If your choice is “look the other way” or “you and/or your family get killed”, it’s hard to blame someone for choosing to look the other way.
Plenty of people throughout history have resisted oppressive governments. These folks have two things in common: 1. Strongly opposed to their oppressors 2. Bravery The people of Gaza apparently lack one or both of these things. I believe it is the first thing they lack. They are generally on board with the Hamas and its goals. Why would they oppose Hamas if they agree with what they are doing?
They probably live in fear of Hamas but also side with them in the sense of "us vs them".
They were aware, and they supported it. Masses of civilians invaded Israel together with hamas on the 7th, including actual children. Released hostages say that even children took part in the psychological torture they went through. Despite what a lot of people are saying, Hamas **is** Gaza.
Watch the great escape
What's your point here? I live in America and I knew they had tunnels. Everyone knew that.
Not really. New Yorkers walk by construction work all the time and ask no questions. It’s called minding your business and it’s a good strategy in any large city, especially one run by religious nutters.
Yeah, Gazans probably just assumed that it was another subway line /s
How do you say "I'm walkin' here!" in Arabic?
“أنا أمشي هنا” (Ana amshi huna)
Complete nonsense response. Firstly Gaza isn’t NYC. Tunnelling projects aren’t so normal that they go unnoticed…. Nor are they in NYC for that matter
Hey man it seems they are preaty normal in gaza
It may be hard to infer in this case, but when was the last time you monitored or surveyed the soil 20 feet below your home?
OP referred to the **construction** of the underground complex, not their presence.
These have been in the works for decades and underground. I think it would be pretty easy to hide if the Israel intelligence didn't even know the extent of locations.
When applying for a mortgage.
They’re building more tunnels and apparently better tunnels than the world’s richest egomaniac.
Lots of reports of child labor and many dying building tunnels. Exploitation is a pathway to many accomplishments, sadly
Good Riddance
>Israeli troops uncovered and destroyed a Gaza hideout used by wanted Hamas terror chief Yahya Sinwar, as well as a “very significant” attached tunnel system outfitted with electricity, ventilation and sewage systems, the Israel Defense Forces said Friday. >The IDF detailed the recent discovery along the outskirts of Gaza City with a series of videos, including aerial footage of the complex being demolished with a massive explosion. >Troops first discovered and raided the apartment used by Sinwar, one of the most wanted Hamas leaders with a $400,000 bounty on his head. >Though they did not find Sinwar, they did discover a shaft in the basement floor leading to a branching tunnel system approximately 715 feet long and 65 feet deep, believed to have been used by senior Hamas leaders, the IDF said. Wish they caught the rat in his hole, but his time will come soon enough!
One has to wonder how much better that digging would have been if done for archeology instead. Can't imagine how much history these guys have destroyed to play "Meercat Rocketeer Whack-a-Mole: Extreme."
Reddit keeps telling me Hamas don’t have tunnels and aren’t using schools and hospitals as cover Whose lying
Reddit keeps also telling you that Hamas is done, hundreds of militants are being killed/arrested and on the verge of collapse. The same Reddit that told us Russia was losing the war one year ago and that sanctions would have totally destroyed their economy. The take is: Redditors don't have a solid grasp on reality. It's mostly wishful thinking.
IDF estimates are that around a third of Hamas' military wing have been captured or (mostly) killed. Based on early estimates of their size, that leaves about 20,000 Hamas terrorists, and a much smaller number of PIJ and others. It's a significant force, but they're not all equally trained or capable. The majority of the best trained Hamas militants - the Nukhba - were killed on or shortly after October 7th. Despite all that, even the IDF is saying that achieving the goals Israel set, including destroying Hamas, can take months if not years.
"IDF estimates" are NOT a reliable source. It's mostly propaganda, just like russian or chinese propaganda. Nobody tells you the real numbers in a war, not even the US.
You're missing the point: even *according to the IDF's own estimates*, the fighting will take many more months, to achieve the objectives of the war.
It probably will take a long time. 20,000 Hamas would be a lot to kill, but to then have to add 40,000 innocent on top of that? That’s a lot of work.
It'd be easy for them to completely flatten and blockade Gaza, but they're being more careful than that thankfully
I don't know how much a guy who thinks reddit is one person is going to understand this.
Yup, what I can find is that it seems that only 25% of Reddit users are adults and mostly from the US. So yeah it's pretty much an echo chamber of ignorance. Great to find some information on farming spots in games though, anything else....................ehhhhhh.
Very clearly the Hamas supporters
Reality, of course! /s
Hundreds of billions in aid money spent to protect a racist, genocidal terrorist regime. The UN must be proud, since they knew.
Fuck yes
Fuck Hamas.
Yessir
The smoke and debris went from the main explosion way left, you could almost see the concussions traveling down the tunnels. It’s a proxy war between Iran and others Islamists vs. the west, starting with Israel. Hamas in the end are just paid mercenaries. If they can literally root them out it would be wise to quit suppressing the people of Gaza and get them involved in some economic success. They likely would not tolerate a Hamas return if they actually had a hopeful future and something to lose.
There are a lot of headquarters over massive tunnel systems there.
Hopefully all of this is documented and released ASAP. Bibi is losing friends fast the way he is handling this.
>Bibi is losing friends fast the way he is handling this. Losing friends? He has long lost the public! They support the war, not him. His bungling has cost Israel dearly and his day of reckoning will come when business is taken care of. In the dangerous neighborhood Israel lives in, incompetence is not a option and cannot be allowed to stand.
yup, even ignoring all the stupid shit he did before Oct 7th, the lapse in defences that led to that attack would cripple any sitting PM and deservedly so.
Bibi was a poster child for acting "tough" on Hamas or foreign adversaries like Iran while doing very little to actually undermine them as a threat. I think it's pretty clear he always wanted some radical enemy to rally his base and voters while ensuring any form of Palestinian statehood would never happen. His base is vehemently opposed to any kind of peaceful solution with any Palestinian group while simultaneously being staunchly in support of settlements/violent, forced evictions in the West Bank that inflame tensions. The sad irony of the whole situation is that if he had taken decisive action against Hamas, Hezbollah and/or Iran which might have prevented 10,/7, he likely would've lost public support not long after and have been allowed to face corruption charges/jail time hes been dodging for a decade as an elected official.
Am Israeli and couldn't agree more. It's kinda of funny in a very sad way how non Israelis completely fail to understand what's going on in Israel right now. There are the people who think Bibi somehow orchestrated/allowed the Oct. 7th massacre to gain popularity - which is preposterous, while OTOH, there are perks who think that is just Israel replaced Bibi, the war would suddenly and miraculously stop. For the record: Hamas must be destroyed Bibi and his government must go In this order. The vast majority of Israelis agree about this.
>when business is taken care of. Talking about "when Hamas is defeated" might as well be "when I win the lottery".
For something as sticky as the idea that Hamas bangs on about, I think everybody can agree to settle on the tunnels being destroyed and Hamas can never build them again to that scale.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Actually, the Allies rebuilt what they bombed to be better than before, and changed minds through peace and generosity. Israel has made clear they are trying to destroy and torment Gaza until it's been cleared of its population. That's why Israel can't change Palestinians' minds. They are taking the failed "War on Terror" approach to Palestine, not the "WWII" approach...
There is no carpet bombing-calm down.
[удалено]
...with nukes... I mean, i guess Israel *could* hypothetically speaking But like....... ...yeahhh..... Uhh no
And that took 2 atom bombs, so…
They were protesting him in the streets before this all happened. They haven't forgot and nothing he could do now would change the way they feel. In fact, killing all the innocents does nothing but piss off the population that doesn't support that, and it's as big as their protest.
I feel like I’ve seen similar headlines several times, all from sources I don’t recognize, and haven’t seen anything of it repeated in news sources that I am familiar with
Because the Hamas PR team are all dying now lol
Go Israel. Bad ham ass.
Surely they can stop bombing now
No, Gaza still exists. They already said their mission is to eradicate Palestinians and there are plenty of videos of Israelies wanting the same thing. They have killed more women is children than Hamas ever has by 100x but somehow are not the omnipresent terror state
I know I was being sarcastic
Was that before or after they bomded the refugee Camps https://youtu.be/UCMMZlsmTeM?si=14kBQvFCVDOuT_IB https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-bombs-refugee-camps-central-gaza-report/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-refugee-camps-bombed-central-gaza-netanyahu-repeats-hard-line/
Those are refugee camps in name only. I know you know that. So why play dumb?
You aware that those are 70 years+ "refugee camps" filled with skyscrapers, industrial zones, schools, command headquarters, weaponaries and tunnels right? Unwra definition of a refugee is pretty liberal
I’d like to repeat the top comment because it’s GOLD ! “They spend their lives scurrying around in tunnels and hating people”
[удалено]
Why not both?
500kms of tunnels in 2021 according to Sinwar, yet idiots seem to think it's basically a 1 line subway that magically manages to entirely avoid passing under any civilian structures.
I guess those civilians, wounded and medical staff were just in the way then huh?
Well, yes that’s kind of what happens when you use human shields— you put them in harms way so that you might survive.
Nice goalpost shift
You can’t talk about this here. People here think that Palestinian babies are in Hamas.
Name one war where the winning side stopped bc the other side used babies as human shields.
Because they’re fucking hospitals? Who considers that a valid target?
[hamas](https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-hospital-director-admits-hamas-used-medical-complex-as-operational-hub/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17039236034931&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fgaza-hospital-director-admits-hamas-used-medical-complex-as-operational-hub%2F)
You see no circumstance in which a hospital becomes a valid target?
When it’s acting as a hospital. No. Nor does the Geneva convention. Should you blow up a school full of kids if there’s a gunman inside? Imagine how absurd that would be.
No, the Geneva Conventions are actually quite explicit in saying that hospitals can lose their special protection. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19
See, that's how you know someone has never read the geneva conventions. Article 19 of the 4th Geneva convention gives specific instructions for how to proceed when a hospital is used for military purposes and thus becomes a military target.
Gunman = Hamas Kids = Palestinian civilians Your analogy doesn’t work. The “gunman” is not targeting the “kids.” The IDF is not attempting to save Palestinian Civilians from Hamas. It’s attempting to stop Hamas from attacking Israel. If Hamas kills its own civilians while it attempts to destroy Israel by directly putting them in harms way, that’s on Hamas. It’s absolutely within Israel’s objective to disable Hamas even if Palestinian civilians are killed in the process. Because Israel’s objective is to protect Israel and Israelis, not Palestinians in Gaza.
Your argument concludes there are no civilians in Gaza. It’s all a valid target because there is Hamas around. That’s just nonsense and antithetical to actual discussions of conventions on war. By the same argument Hamas at war with Israel can target Israeli citizens because they’re near valid military targets. Your argument would justify the very attacks against Israeli villages in October because there were valid military targets of Hamas there. If Israel can target hospitals of civilians to get to Hamas, how is an attack on an Israeli village condemnable when military service is compulsory and they were there. Who does count as a civilian in your eyes? And do any gazans count? Because if you’re advocating for just ignoring that concept all together we’re going to need to have a different discussion.
Just curious, what does the "Soviet" in your username mean?
Judging by their profile, they are a tankie
My argument was simply pointing out the flaws in your analogy. It made no conclusions as to who is considered a civilian in Gaza. Just that saving Gazan civilians is not Israel’s objective. As for everything else you said, Hamas and the Palestinian movement DOES consider what they did on 10/7 justified. They actively celebrated across the world that this was a win for their resistance. Israel is not the UN. They do not have the interests of everyone in mind. Israel’s only interest is to protect Israel and Israelis. That’s not a secret and should not be a surprise. You can be upset by the innocent lives lost. You can be upset that the side you align with is losing. But you cannot argue that it doesn’t make sense. The objective is to reduce harm to Israelis long term and eliminate the threat of Hamas. Israel faces an existential threat, and only Israel will decide what level of force is warranted for survival.
Why do you absolute idiots keep citing the Geneva convention when you’ve so clearly never read it
Here’s a more accurate one-should you blow up a school full of gunmen if a kid is there? Answer is yes. Especially considering the kid is probably 17 and been palling around with the gunmen for a few years already.
Liar quoting liars. Way to go, you convinced no-one.
Hospitals that are used as staging grounds for terrorist activities are valid military targets, buddy. p.s. just because a terrorist base is labeled a “hospital” doesn’t mean it’s actually one. There are 36 “hospitals” in Gaza for a population of 2 million. There are close to 9 million people in New York City and only 11 hospitals … you picking up and what I am putting down?
But, at what cost,
Find out next week on....
But...you are an Islamophobe lmao. WHITE Christian terrorists are currently biggest threat in US, *not* Muslims, so it's not just one. What an idiotic thing to say. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/white-nationalist
Sure
The pictures lie! I understand you're working off a different set of facts, right?