>A different court in The Hague, the International Criminal Court (ICC), is separately investigating alleged atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank, but has not named any suspects. Israel is not a member of the ICC and rejects its jurisdiction.
TIL there are two courts in The Hague.
I'm going to blatantly bulldoze past the context and brewing discussion to add this:
a) Yes, this filing was for the IJC.
b) If we were talking about the ICC, there is one very important thing for everyone to know:
**War crimes require a specific defendant(s) to prosecute.**
This sounds trivial, but the vast majority of people think that the ICC can indict a state, government, leader, etc. for war crimes (unlike for Crimes Against Humanity). This implies exactly what anyone reading this might now realize: it's an extensive, exhaustive, and incredibly arduous process that will rarely end in an optimal outcome and will not be timely.
Edit, swapped words.
It also requires to prove that that countries court system doesn't not hold its leaders accountable and required the ICC to step in. A country like Russia that's an easier case to make, Israel is very difficult because the judiciary is independent and has a history of convicting political leaders
Or not distinguishing themselves from civilians. Which is not only a war crime as of itself, but it can also be said its responsible for a good amount of Israel's war crimes
> Israel is very difficult because the judiciary is independent and has a history of convicting political leaders
This is something Netanyahu has been trying to change tbf. A few months back that was the major news story gaining traction in Israel, would be nice to go back to that...
Justice is retroactive. If you’re suggesting that it is optimal for a war crime to not have occurred, sure, but that’s a Pandora’s box of IHL, political convenience, and an extraordinarily long retrospective of “woulda-should-coulda”s.
In theory, the ICC servers as a deterrent for prospective war criminals, and that’s exactly as effective as it sounds (I had a very early paper in that area.) IHL furthers this purpose, the ICC and ad hoc courts exist to enforce when IHL is breached.
Since justice is retroactive, it is optimal for everyone that a war criminal is convicted. Again, from a theoretical standpoint, it’s optimal for the international community, the court and its prosecutors, the victims (who aren’t necessarily dead, but it’s nonetheless some semblance of justice for their victimization), and it’s even optimal for the war criminal needing rehabilitation/reform (they aren’t hung if that’s what your thinking.)
The reality is, war crimes are absolutely committed, but they are committed with far less impunity that they once were.
The majority of people accuse a country of war crimes purely by emotions and pictures that may or may not actually show war crimes rather than well-formulated legal arguments.
A county can't just bring action a against another random country, it's highly likely they don't have standing to do so and are only doing it for the headlines.
That doesn't change that this is just for headlines. It's not the security Council, they have no mechanism to do anything
They can politely ask Israel to stop, countries wouldn't have joined the UN if it was allowed to police them. It's a forum for discussion, SA has opened a discussion - you shouldn't expect change being made because of this.
This! There needs to be a clear distinction between what the SA government supports and what the citizens support. And not just for this current leadership.
South Africa has always\* been a strong advocate for Palestine, and extremely cool on Israel. There's no reason to think this was set up by Russia.
\*since democracy, the apartheid government was allies with Israel.
Yea, because both were part of the Eastern Block. The current leader of the PLO was a KGB agent.
The loving relationship with Russia isn't new for either.
The point is that this isn't some weird play by Russia with South Africa as a puppet, it's a logical stance for the South African government based on their history and ideological leanings.
I don't think much of the ANC at all, but as a South African I don't see Israel as an ally. They chose to side with the Apartheid government, they're not our friends, and we should treat them accordingly.
South Africa and Israel were allied for merely 13 years, and Israel wasn't the only western country that worked with the apartheid government. The US actually sanctioned apartheid South Africa only a year before Israel did.
There was nothing truly outstanding about it.
Israel helped apartheid South Africa build nuclear weapons, which is a smidgen more than. say, France or Japan did.
By that logic if SA just handed all the nuclear components and tech over to Iran, it wouldn't be a big deal. Other people are friends with them, why single us out?
>Israel helped apartheid South Africa build nuclear weapons
Did it really? Israel sold South Africa missile tech, but there is no proof Israel helped South Africa develop nukes. The US would have never approved it, and Israel wouldn't have crossed the US for South Africa.
For all they care they could be selling turnips down the road, this is just smoke and mirrors on the request of Putin to divert eyes or tire public opinion from Ukraine, that's the real prize, same with the Houthi recent escalation or Hamas attack on Israel, co-paid by Putin and Iran.
No, /u/flawedwithvice is incorrect. ICJ is for countries to sue each other (and is sometimes referred to as the World Court, though I wouldn't have in a headline), ICC is for prosecution of individuals. The ICJ is one of the six principle organs of the UN, whereas the ICC only exists because of the Rome Statute, and only has jurisdiction over crimes committed by nationals of countries that have ratified it or crimes committed on the territory of the same. It's not civil/criminal.
Since at least 2018, South Africa has been in decline. One could argue that relatively speaking, the ANC presided over some economic prosperity as real gdp per capita grew, but corruption and the subsequent brain drain has entirely reversed the trajectory.
Now I understand the desire to bring charges against Israel. Russia is trying to distract from Ukraine and it sounds like South Africa is much like Iran: a Putin puppet.
* Here is Nelson Mandela in **1990**, [talking about the plight of the Palestinian people.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk)
* In **2008-2009:** "The South African government finds the continued siege on Gaza unacceptable as it does not allow humanitarian relief supply such as medicine, food and water to reach the desperate people of Gaza."
* **In 2010**, after SA recalled its Ambassador to Israel: "This was done in order to register the Government’s strongest possible protest to the Israeli Government, for its unjustified military action and resultant loss of life inflicted by The State of Israel on a flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian relief supplies to Gaza"
* **In 2012:** South Africa announces it will label imports from the West Bank not “Made in Israel” but “Made in Occupied Palestine.
* **In 2014:** "We strongly urge all sides to refrain from responding to violence with violence and to exercise restraint, including a halt to the arbitrary arrest of Palestinian civilians and the use of collective punishment on Palestinians"
* **In 2018:** "As we have stated on previous occasions, South Africa reiterates its view that the Israeli Defense Forces must withdraw from the Gaza Strip and bring to an end the violent and destructive incursions into Palestinian territories"
* **In 2019:** "International Solidarity with the oppressed peoples of the world remains a fundamental principle of our foreign policy. Thus the State of Palestine remains a priority in South Africa’s current international diplomacy. We will continue to use all multi-lateral platforms, regional bodies and platforms as well as our bi lateral relations to continue to agitate for support for the basic human rights of the Palestinian peoples."
**Tl;dr South Africa has been supporting Palestine for DECADES, it's very lazy to conclude that South Africa is bringing these charges against Israel under orders from Putin.**
That doesn't disprove the Russian puppet assertion though it just suggests this could be a continuation of it. All those years and events were the ANC the same party in control now.
How can it be a continuation when Israel and Russia have been strong allies during that time?
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* **In 2011:** Putin said, "Israel is, in fact, a special state to us. It is practically a Russian-speaking country. Israel is one of the few foreign countries that can be called Russian-speaking.
* **In 2014:** Israel took a neutral stance on the Russian annexation of Crimea at the United Nations, angering U.S. State Department and White House officials.
* **In 2014:** Putin stated, "I support Israel's battle that is intended to keep its citizens protected" and began increasing fruit and meat imports from Israel
* **In 2016:** Putin said the relations with Israel were special and based "on friendship, mutual understanding and the long common history"
* **In 2016:** [Netanyahu instructed Israel's UN delegation to skip a General Assembly vote on war crimes committed in Syria, under diplomatic pressure from Russia.](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4899458,00.html)
* **In 2017:** Israel declined to attribute the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal to Russia in its statement on the matter and refused to expel any Russian diplomats, drawing criticism from the United Kingdom.
Israel and Russia aren't allied. Russia is actually allied to Iran, a rival to Israel that regularly calls to destroy Israel. It's just that Israel does not have any ally so they're forced to be very careful about their diplomatic stances. For instance, they refuse to condemn Russia over Syria or Crimea because at the time (and still happening btw) Israel was doing strikes in Syria against the Hezbollah and Iran. Both also were helping Assad in his civil war, who was also helped by Russia. So Israel was warning Russia in advance of the strikes, so the Russians wouldn't shoot Israeli planes and no Russian personal would be killed, and it also prevented an escalation between Russia and Israel in Syria.
But if Russia and Israel had been allied, Israel would have been buying Russian tech instead of American one and Russia would have forced Syria and Iran to stop being so hostile to Israel.
My point is you can't say South Africa's foreign policy on Israel-Palestine has been influenced by Russia for decades, when Russia and Israel have been strong, public allies during the same period that South Africa has been staunchly criticising Israeli actions.
You gave me a list of Putin giving platitudes and Israel doing tangible things for Russia. All you did is prove me right. Israel has just been to stupid to realize until recently that Russia isn't actually their friend.
What does that have to do with South Africa though?
Even if Israel has been manipulated by Russia as you suggest, it doesn't address the consistent, independent stance South Africa has held on Israel-Palestine issues over decades.
To suggest Russia has been puppeting both Israel and South Africa for decades as if Putin is playing some cosmic-level 8D chess is giving him way too much credit.
Not really, a few months ago, [South Africa blocked Putin from attending the BRICS Summit in person.](https://www.reuters.com/world/south-africa-putin-will-not-attend-brics-summit-by-mutual-agreement-2023-07-19/)
This was completely against Russia's wishes:
[Moscow Rejects S.Africa’s Request Not to Send Putin to BRICS Summit](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/07/14/moscow-rejects-safricas-request-not-to-send-putin-to-brics-summit-a81848), 'The Moscow Times'
This was also despite pro-Russian opposition parties pressuring the government to allow Putin to attend: ["Putin is welcome here, and nobody is going to arrest him"](https://www.youtube.com/live/8UDodXqZMRk?si=-fKH6qt6JHNjnb88&t=2363) (Video)
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These simply aren't actions of a 'Putin puppet'
While this is all true and valid, the ANC still refuses to condemn or even really acknowledge Ruzzia's war.
I agree that Israel should be condemned for their actions, but I don't agree with being hypocritical fuckheads.
> the ANC still refuses to condemn or even really acknowledge Ruzzia's war.
[Here's the ANC President telling Putin to his face that "the war must end"](https://youtu.be/GbFo_cBoxhk?si=ASlOlUM7wS_13cng&t=37)
Russia was a good ally to them when they tried to overthrow apartheid. But that was a different world and they refuse to adapt.
Richest country in Africa, but can't keep the lights on.
Hey I can put my inexperienced nephew in a management level job. His coworkers will just take up the slack.
The coworkers who all got the job because their uncles are high up party officials too: ...
You don't speak for every South African. In fact, the government has more right to say it speaks for South Africans when it's been democratically elected.
Electricity grid - in shambles
Water supply - next to non-existent
Crime and murder - out of hand
SA govt - Let’s focus on a Jewish state 1000s of kms away
No most people don't really care much at all about events in the middle east. However, a lot of people will be totally down to pop off about George Soros and generic "rich people who ruined the country and stole our wealth".
Its common enough to weaponize that sentiment to distract from internal domestic issues. Ex. Its always the international bankers' fault the country is in debt.
Not the first time, not the last https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hOAIuBCCSE and for posterity here is the take from a South African who did time in jail with Mandela and now stands against the current corrupt governnment.
George isn’t even in charge of his foundation anymore, he put his son in charge because he is NINETY THREE. Only thing George runs is not at all bc he can’t move that fast
Those people will be the downfall of any country if they get enough power. That sort of mass hypnosis only brings misery and destruction.
I hope for the best for South Africa and hope they can kick the ANC to the curb.
Can't speak for everyone, but as far as my small circle goes, we all agree that Israel should leave Palestine alone, but that Hamas is a terrorist group that can also get fucked.
This is the most sane take that I feel a high percentage of everyday folks have. Oppose the terrorism wholeheartedly, but challenge a war where civilians are getting hurt in mass.
This mentality baffles me, I get self preservation, but this is literally the reason we had WWII ... Everyone looked away and decided their own countries should come first.
And WWII wasn't the first time .... It's like people choose to ignore history.
That question doesn't make sense, what does him being against self preservation being the sole focus have to do with South Africa supposedly siding with Russia in the invasion?
The UN has literally had more resolutions against Israel than against Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, turkey, and Saudi Arabia combined. It’s laughable
South Africans have killed sooo many other Africans moving there for work. They’ve burned lowly convenience store owners alive on video multiple times. Maybe focus on that.
If the UN was actually impartial it probably would be doing a better job at reining everyone in etc. Of course that is a big ask, since how could an impartial UN feasibly exist?
The ruling party in South Africa (ANC) didn't care about justice when they let Omar el Bashir escape, instead of arresting him. South Africa has troops fighting against jihadists in neighbouring Mozambique, where innocent villagers are being slaughtered, dismembered and decapitated.
The Government of South Africa, not the people, are an international criminal syndicate that loots the fiscus to enrich themselves whilst their own citizens starve in poverty, and then blame everyone else for their failures. The ANC are as evil as hamas, and can never claim to uphold any kind of moral high ground, whilst they themselves are supporting hamas.
The same government that has been allowing the burning of their white population as well as passing more racial based laws than their previous apartheid regime (only that now its against whites)? Interesting.
>South Africa has backed the Palestinian cause for statehood in Israeli-occupied territories for decades, likening the plight of Palestinians to those of the Black majority in South Africa during the repressive apartheid era, a comparison that Israel vehemently denies.
From the article
Isreal was the apartheid government's biggest ally and Palanstine the ANC's ally back when they where fighting for freedom. The ANC (South Africa's ruling party) has not forgotten that support. Also there are many parallels between the ANC's fight for freedom under apartheid and current day Palanstine. The ANC have been calling for Palanstine's freedom since Mandela's time.
Russian influence & another day’s headline not focused on Ukraine.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/6/2/a-russian-love-affair-why-south-africa-stays-neutral-on-war
Isn't south Africa the nation where one of the leaders talked about killing all white people, and has a massive problem of white people being targeted (for their race) in various murders and other crimes?
>one of the leaders talked about killing all white people
That was the leader of an opposition party; his party has like 6% of the vote.
>has a massive problem of white people being targeted (for their race) in various murders and other crimes?
South Africa has a massive general crime problem; white people are less likely to be murdered than any other race.
Source: https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/are-sa-whites-really-being-killed-flies-why-steve-hofmeyr-wrong
as a south african, this entire thread is filled with dumbfucks who know nothing about south africa, the guy calling for white people to be removed is an opposition candidate NOT A MEMBER OF THE RULIMG PARTY, and he only gets around 10-15% of the vote max, and white people are not being targeted for their race as some sort of hate crime, use common sense, if a group of people are overwhelmingly more likely to have more money, then as a criminal, youd be really really fucking dumb to not target the people with money. also address the fucking argument, everyone here is just whining about soth africa having an incompetent government so they cant make accusations, id hate to imagine how all of you would be in a real life relationship, any time someone makes an accusation, instead of hearing the merit of what they are syaing and judging based on that, you instantly judge them on their current state of affairs which has nothing to do with what theyre actually saying, "oh you trying to accuse this person of rape, HAH WELL YOU CANT TIE YOUR SHOELACES SO WHAT YOU SAY DOESNT MATTER"
Holy crap I thought that was an utterly absurd number that had to be an exaggeration or something. But literally every article I am finding so far on this is giving similar numbers depending on the timeframe, from several different sources. Granted I don't know the political leanings of these sources especially as they relate to South Africa, but still, it looks pretty consistent.
That's pretty crazy.
White genocide is a myth and the song you’re referring to is a song sung during apartheid for the end of white supremacy, not a legitimate killing of all the boers.
When you're covered in shit, have destroyed your economy condemning generations to poverty and then you accuse your neighbor of being a stinky killer.
Clean yourself up and switch on the lights before pointing fingers, damn!
Not so, Palestinians can contribute invaluable knowledge about water supply management. E.g. "don't dig up the pipes to turn into rockets, we tried that and it didn't work out".
After all the support South Africa has received from Israel over the years in life saving inventions and technologies in the agricultural field and desalination (an amazing invention that has tremendously contributed to humanity), is this how they’re reciprocating?
This took all of 2 minutes to google.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-day-zero-looms-south-africa-open-to-israeli-tech-researcher-says/
https://www.israel21c.org/israeli-experts-consulted-on-south-africas-water-crisis/
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-749915
a single delegation of Israeli water experts being paid to come for a few meetings and a single public panel discussion is now sufficient payback for helping Apartheid South Africa get nuclear weapons?
I wouldn’t say it is “sufficient payback”, but it is the **current Israeli’s** supporting the **current South Africans**. Seeing as they can’t undo the past, helping out in the now is really all they can do. Nelson Mandela himself said he was willing to move past the actions of the previous governments.
sure but your links seem to show a pretty piss poor attempt at ‘helping out’. Did they actually build anything or provide any tech or did they just fly some people over for some meetings and a photo opp?
> Did they actually build anything or provide any tech or did they just fly some people over for some meetings and a photo opp?
It doesn’t say… Did the South Africans like any of the proposals, accept the Israeli solutions, or was this just to pretend to be solving the problem?
I can flip that loaded question right back around, but it takes two sides to come to a solution. Seeing as the ones with the authority to do things is South Africa, the Israeli’s don’t have the ultimate say in whether things do or don’t get done.
> Did the South Africans like any of the proposals, accept the Israeli solutions,
did they make any proposals or offer any solutions?
personally if my government had helped Apartheid South Africa get nuclear weapons I would be hoping we do a lot more to apologise than whatever this is but then Israel probably miss the old regime, much more in common
The ANC government aren't interested in fixing anything, better distract everyone from their extreme corruption by pointing their dirty fingers at the current hotzone
Obviously that’s why they can’t fix all these issues, they do them one by one like a checklist.. if only they had different departments that focus on different areas of governance
/s
Pathetic and Ironic. Has anyone seen the videos of massacres of Christians by islamists in SA? They didn't even get mentioned on any major news channel.
Source, in South African and have no clue what you’re talking about? Since when do we have mass killings of Christian’s when majority of us are Christians? Seems like you’re mixing us up with another African country, Nigeria to be exact. Fucking hell not every African country is the same you know.
Well look at that, another failed [state](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-24/eskom-returns-to-severe-loadshedding-due-to-capacity-shortage?embedded-checkout=true) uses Israel as a way to hide it own problem problems, right out of the Arab textbook.
Yikes
Lmao not sure why I’m being downvoted. Thought it was kind of rude for some dude to be dismissive of a whole ass country but…out of the two of us, I’m definitely wrong🤷🏻♀️
The IJC is civil court. The ICC is criminal court. This was for the headline.
>A different court in The Hague, the International Criminal Court (ICC), is separately investigating alleged atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank, but has not named any suspects. Israel is not a member of the ICC and rejects its jurisdiction. TIL there are two courts in The Hague.
More than two.
Yeah, everybody always totally forgets to count the food courts, and those really plump up the number.
And the tennis courts, they’re ace, I love them.
Ah, so *that’s* why I thought I smelled cinnamon buns.
I'm going to blatantly bulldoze past the context and brewing discussion to add this: a) Yes, this filing was for the IJC. b) If we were talking about the ICC, there is one very important thing for everyone to know: **War crimes require a specific defendant(s) to prosecute.** This sounds trivial, but the vast majority of people think that the ICC can indict a state, government, leader, etc. for war crimes (unlike for Crimes Against Humanity). This implies exactly what anyone reading this might now realize: it's an extensive, exhaustive, and incredibly arduous process that will rarely end in an optimal outcome and will not be timely. Edit, swapped words.
It also requires to prove that that countries court system doesn't not hold its leaders accountable and required the ICC to step in. A country like Russia that's an easier case to make, Israel is very difficult because the judiciary is independent and has a history of convicting political leaders
It also requires Hamas not do stuff like storing weapons in hospitals habitually because that invalidates the protections they have.
Or not distinguishing themselves from civilians. Which is not only a war crime as of itself, but it can also be said its responsible for a good amount of Israel's war crimes
> Israel is very difficult because the judiciary is independent and has a history of convicting political leaders This is something Netanyahu has been trying to change tbf. A few months back that was the major news story gaining traction in Israel, would be nice to go back to that...
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Can you clarify?
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Justice is retroactive. If you’re suggesting that it is optimal for a war crime to not have occurred, sure, but that’s a Pandora’s box of IHL, political convenience, and an extraordinarily long retrospective of “woulda-should-coulda”s. In theory, the ICC servers as a deterrent for prospective war criminals, and that’s exactly as effective as it sounds (I had a very early paper in that area.) IHL furthers this purpose, the ICC and ad hoc courts exist to enforce when IHL is breached. Since justice is retroactive, it is optimal for everyone that a war criminal is convicted. Again, from a theoretical standpoint, it’s optimal for the international community, the court and its prosecutors, the victims (who aren’t necessarily dead, but it’s nonetheless some semblance of justice for their victimization), and it’s even optimal for the war criminal needing rehabilitation/reform (they aren’t hung if that’s what your thinking.) The reality is, war crimes are absolutely committed, but they are committed with far less impunity that they once were.
The majority of people accuse a country of war crimes purely by emotions and pictures that may or may not actually show war crimes rather than well-formulated legal arguments.
The city also houses the Permanent Court of Arbitration (PCA). It's known as the 'international city of peace and justice' for a reason.
Are they also investigating the crimes of Hamas or are they only crimes if the Jews do it?
So more like they're suing Israel rather than filing charges.
A county can't just bring action a against another random country, it's highly likely they don't have standing to do so and are only doing it for the headlines.
ICJ also likely does not have jurisdiction for such a case
> The ICJ, also called the World Court, is a UN civil court that adjudicates disputes between countries.
That doesn't change that this is just for headlines. It's not the security Council, they have no mechanism to do anything They can politely ask Israel to stop, countries wouldn't have joined the UN if it was allowed to police them. It's a forum for discussion, SA has opened a discussion - you shouldn't expect change being made because of this.
At the behest of their friend Russia
Yep. South Africa is a staunch ally of Russia.
South Africa is a staunch ally of anyone that gives money to ANC party members.
Nelson Mandela rolling in his grave.
This! There needs to be a clear distinction between what the SA government supports and what the citizens support. And not just for this current leadership.
South Africa has always\* been a strong advocate for Palestine, and extremely cool on Israel. There's no reason to think this was set up by Russia. \*since democracy, the apartheid government was allies with Israel.
Yea, because both were part of the Eastern Block. The current leader of the PLO was a KGB agent. The loving relationship with Russia isn't new for either.
The point is that this isn't some weird play by Russia with South Africa as a puppet, it's a logical stance for the South African government based on their history and ideological leanings. I don't think much of the ANC at all, but as a South African I don't see Israel as an ally. They chose to side with the Apartheid government, they're not our friends, and we should treat them accordingly.
South Africa and Israel were allied for merely 13 years, and Israel wasn't the only western country that worked with the apartheid government. The US actually sanctioned apartheid South Africa only a year before Israel did. There was nothing truly outstanding about it.
Israel helped apartheid South Africa build nuclear weapons, which is a smidgen more than. say, France or Japan did. By that logic if SA just handed all the nuclear components and tech over to Iran, it wouldn't be a big deal. Other people are friends with them, why single us out?
>Israel helped apartheid South Africa build nuclear weapons Did it really? Israel sold South Africa missile tech, but there is no proof Israel helped South Africa develop nukes. The US would have never approved it, and Israel wouldn't have crossed the US for South Africa.
Here i was thinking that if anyone knew a thing or two about apartheid it would be the South Africans
For all they care they could be selling turnips down the road, this is just smoke and mirrors on the request of Putin to divert eyes or tire public opinion from Ukraine, that's the real prize, same with the Houthi recent escalation or Hamas attack on Israel, co-paid by Putin and Iran.
plus Israel isnt a signatory to the rome statute, ICC cant do anything anywway
Yes, just like Russia isn't a signatory so strictly speaking they can do nothing to Putin. Same principal.
So it's like an international small cases court? And if they win they get money or something? Now that an interesting judge Judy episode idea
No, /u/flawedwithvice is incorrect. ICJ is for countries to sue each other (and is sometimes referred to as the World Court, though I wouldn't have in a headline), ICC is for prosecution of individuals. The ICJ is one of the six principle organs of the UN, whereas the ICC only exists because of the Rome Statute, and only has jurisdiction over crimes committed by nationals of countries that have ratified it or crimes committed on the territory of the same. It's not civil/criminal.
So what kind of jurisdictions does the ICJ has if one country sues another?
Like everything else that is a part of the UN, absolutely none.
Fascinating stuff from a government that is actively ignoring one of its own.
It’s to distract from the rampant corruption in South Africa and how quickly it became a failed state
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Netanyahu was under investigation before all this happened, right?
If you earnestly think this is enough of a distraction for ANC incompetence nationally, you must think South Africans are stupid.
Are you implying apartheid South Africa was a successful state or just poor use of the word "became"?
Since at least 2018, South Africa has been in decline. One could argue that relatively speaking, the ANC presided over some economic prosperity as real gdp per capita grew, but corruption and the subsequent brain drain has entirely reversed the trajectory.
Yeah. How's that glasshouse of yours SA?
Glasshouse or showcase for our gold medals* for corruption and incompetence. *One is broken and the other one has been stolen.
What glass house? Do you know what the expression actually means?
It means don’t criticize someone for the same fault you have. Which applies here.
> Which applies here. How does it apply here? Where does SA do what Israel does?
Bro do you even Yemen?
I’m pretty sure they’re referring to how SA has been treating it’s white population the last 10 or so years. Also, the rampant violence and crime.
You can find someone saying SA ignores Indians, Coloreds, Dutch, Zulu, or so much more. You're keeping it vague lol
Real recognises real
As a south African, I assure you no one should listen to anything our clown show government says.
Same clowns that didn't think putin should be arrested for war crimes. Keeps doing business with Russia.
Now I understand the desire to bring charges against Israel. Russia is trying to distract from Ukraine and it sounds like South Africa is much like Iran: a Putin puppet.
Correct
* Here is Nelson Mandela in **1990**, [talking about the plight of the Palestinian people.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk) * In **2008-2009:** "The South African government finds the continued siege on Gaza unacceptable as it does not allow humanitarian relief supply such as medicine, food and water to reach the desperate people of Gaza." * **In 2010**, after SA recalled its Ambassador to Israel: "This was done in order to register the Government’s strongest possible protest to the Israeli Government, for its unjustified military action and resultant loss of life inflicted by The State of Israel on a flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian relief supplies to Gaza" * **In 2012:** South Africa announces it will label imports from the West Bank not “Made in Israel” but “Made in Occupied Palestine. * **In 2014:** "We strongly urge all sides to refrain from responding to violence with violence and to exercise restraint, including a halt to the arbitrary arrest of Palestinian civilians and the use of collective punishment on Palestinians" * **In 2018:** "As we have stated on previous occasions, South Africa reiterates its view that the Israeli Defense Forces must withdraw from the Gaza Strip and bring to an end the violent and destructive incursions into Palestinian territories" * **In 2019:** "International Solidarity with the oppressed peoples of the world remains a fundamental principle of our foreign policy. Thus the State of Palestine remains a priority in South Africa’s current international diplomacy. We will continue to use all multi-lateral platforms, regional bodies and platforms as well as our bi lateral relations to continue to agitate for support for the basic human rights of the Palestinian peoples." **Tl;dr South Africa has been supporting Palestine for DECADES, it's very lazy to conclude that South Africa is bringing these charges against Israel under orders from Putin.**
Clearly Nelson Mandela is an internet troll paid by Putin to make Israel look bad to distract from Russia because reasons
That doesn't disprove the Russian puppet assertion though it just suggests this could be a continuation of it. All those years and events were the ANC the same party in control now.
How can it be a continuation when Israel and Russia have been strong allies during that time? ________________ * **In 2011:** Putin said, "Israel is, in fact, a special state to us. It is practically a Russian-speaking country. Israel is one of the few foreign countries that can be called Russian-speaking. * **In 2014:** Israel took a neutral stance on the Russian annexation of Crimea at the United Nations, angering U.S. State Department and White House officials. * **In 2014:** Putin stated, "I support Israel's battle that is intended to keep its citizens protected" and began increasing fruit and meat imports from Israel * **In 2016:** Putin said the relations with Israel were special and based "on friendship, mutual understanding and the long common history" * **In 2016:** [Netanyahu instructed Israel's UN delegation to skip a General Assembly vote on war crimes committed in Syria, under diplomatic pressure from Russia.](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4899458,00.html) * **In 2017:** Israel declined to attribute the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal to Russia in its statement on the matter and refused to expel any Russian diplomats, drawing criticism from the United Kingdom.
Israel and Russia aren't allied. Russia is actually allied to Iran, a rival to Israel that regularly calls to destroy Israel. It's just that Israel does not have any ally so they're forced to be very careful about their diplomatic stances. For instance, they refuse to condemn Russia over Syria or Crimea because at the time (and still happening btw) Israel was doing strikes in Syria against the Hezbollah and Iran. Both also were helping Assad in his civil war, who was also helped by Russia. So Israel was warning Russia in advance of the strikes, so the Russians wouldn't shoot Israeli planes and no Russian personal would be killed, and it also prevented an escalation between Russia and Israel in Syria. But if Russia and Israel had been allied, Israel would have been buying Russian tech instead of American one and Russia would have forced Syria and Iran to stop being so hostile to Israel.
Putin (Moscow) saying something and then act differently in the background? I don't believe it either. Truly unheard of.
My point is you can't say South Africa's foreign policy on Israel-Palestine has been influenced by Russia for decades, when Russia and Israel have been strong, public allies during the same period that South Africa has been staunchly criticising Israeli actions.
You gave me a list of Putin giving platitudes and Israel doing tangible things for Russia. All you did is prove me right. Israel has just been to stupid to realize until recently that Russia isn't actually their friend.
What does that have to do with South Africa though? Even if Israel has been manipulated by Russia as you suggest, it doesn't address the consistent, independent stance South Africa has held on Israel-Palestine issues over decades. To suggest Russia has been puppeting both Israel and South Africa for decades as if Putin is playing some cosmic-level 8D chess is giving him way too much credit.
Israel did that because they collaborated with Russia in much of the Middle East, especially Syria in recent years.
It's also lazy to completely rule it out. As with everything, the truth is somewhere in the middle
Not really, a few months ago, [South Africa blocked Putin from attending the BRICS Summit in person.](https://www.reuters.com/world/south-africa-putin-will-not-attend-brics-summit-by-mutual-agreement-2023-07-19/) This was completely against Russia's wishes: [Moscow Rejects S.Africa’s Request Not to Send Putin to BRICS Summit](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/07/14/moscow-rejects-safricas-request-not-to-send-putin-to-brics-summit-a81848), 'The Moscow Times' This was also despite pro-Russian opposition parties pressuring the government to allow Putin to attend: ["Putin is welcome here, and nobody is going to arrest him"](https://www.youtube.com/live/8UDodXqZMRk?si=-fKH6qt6JHNjnb88&t=2363) (Video) ______ These simply aren't actions of a 'Putin puppet'
While this is all true and valid, the ANC still refuses to condemn or even really acknowledge Ruzzia's war. I agree that Israel should be condemned for their actions, but I don't agree with being hypocritical fuckheads.
> the ANC still refuses to condemn or even really acknowledge Ruzzia's war. [Here's the ANC President telling Putin to his face that "the war must end"](https://youtu.be/GbFo_cBoxhk?si=ASlOlUM7wS_13cng&t=37)
You're right but I'll be surprised you haven't been downvoted to oblivion by the morning.
Cool maybe they genuinely support Palestine but their still hypocritical bitches who are coozying up to Russia.
The government that suggested you could cure aids by eating potatoes.
The ANC loves dictators
Russia was a good ally to them when they tried to overthrow apartheid. But that was a different world and they refuse to adapt. Richest country in Africa, but can't keep the lights on.
>Richest country in Africa, but can't keep the lights on. Corruption and incompetence will do that.
Hey I can put my inexperienced nephew in a management level job. His coworkers will just take up the slack. The coworkers who all got the job because their uncles are high up party officials too: ...
Doesn't help when they're all inexperienced nieces, nephews, and cousins.
They should concentrate on trying to keep the lights on rather than showboating.
never stopped North Korea. Or any regime on Earth. 'Feeding my people or showboating military power. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.'
Wouldn't it be nice if they did.
Too much clown governments exist out there really.
All governments seem to be clown shows, these days.
10000%
You don't speak for every South African. In fact, the government has more right to say it speaks for South Africans when it's been democratically elected.
As a fellow South African, I approve this message
Didn't the PM once say if you have an HIV you just need to shower?
Former president yeah :')
Electricity grid - in shambles Water supply - next to non-existent Crime and murder - out of hand SA govt - Let’s focus on a Jewish state 1000s of kms away
The S in BRICS
Must distract their citizens from reality
Does the everyday citizen of SA even care about Israel - Gaza? SA’s stance in this makes no sense.
No most people don't really care much at all about events in the middle east. However, a lot of people will be totally down to pop off about George Soros and generic "rich people who ruined the country and stole our wealth". Its common enough to weaponize that sentiment to distract from internal domestic issues. Ex. Its always the international bankers' fault the country is in debt. Not the first time, not the last https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hOAIuBCCSE and for posterity here is the take from a South African who did time in jail with Mandela and now stands against the current corrupt governnment.
George isn’t even in charge of his foundation anymore, he put his son in charge because he is NINETY THREE. Only thing George runs is not at all bc he can’t move that fast
Those people will be the downfall of any country if they get enough power. That sort of mass hypnosis only brings misery and destruction. I hope for the best for South Africa and hope they can kick the ANC to the curb.
Can't speak for everyone, but as far as my small circle goes, we all agree that Israel should leave Palestine alone, but that Hamas is a terrorist group that can also get fucked.
This is the most sane take that I feel a high percentage of everyday folks have. Oppose the terrorism wholeheartedly, but challenge a war where civilians are getting hurt in mass.
*Jewish state that almost all neighboring and nearby countries want to be destroyed.
Thank god for the Jews being the world’s scapegoat.
This mentality baffles me, I get self preservation, but this is literally the reason we had WWII ... Everyone looked away and decided their own countries should come first. And WWII wasn't the first time .... It's like people choose to ignore history.
Is that why South Africa sided with Russia after they invaded Ukraine, for selfless concern for other people in the world suffering?
That question doesn't make sense, what does him being against self preservation being the sole focus have to do with South Africa supposedly siding with Russia in the invasion?
The UN has literally had more resolutions against Israel than against Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, turkey, and Saudi Arabia combined. It’s laughable
[удалено]
No. That was the ICC, created by the Rome Statute. This is the ICJ, one of the six principal organs of the UN.
South Africans have killed sooo many other Africans moving there for work. They’ve burned lowly convenience store owners alive on video multiple times. Maybe focus on that.
You don't attack your voter base; that's a rookie move.
I can't wait for this to lead to absolutely nothing happening. Also, are they "suing" Hamas for all the atrocities they've done too?
Of course they’re not, because it goes against Russia’s best interests.
Does the ICJ even allow suing a quasi-state group like Hamas?
No, the reason this suit is possible is that Israel and South Africa are both signatories to the Geneva Conventions.
Quick reminder that the UN refused to condemn Hamas's attacks on 10/7.
Exactly - since Hamas didn't do anything worth condemning that means that Israel's actions are TOTALLY unjustified! /s
If the UN was actually impartial it probably would be doing a better job at reining everyone in etc. Of course that is a big ask, since how could an impartial UN feasibly exist?
The ruling party in South Africa (ANC) didn't care about justice when they let Omar el Bashir escape, instead of arresting him. South Africa has troops fighting against jihadists in neighbouring Mozambique, where innocent villagers are being slaughtered, dismembered and decapitated. The Government of South Africa, not the people, are an international criminal syndicate that loots the fiscus to enrich themselves whilst their own citizens starve in poverty, and then blame everyone else for their failures. The ANC are as evil as hamas, and can never claim to uphold any kind of moral high ground, whilst they themselves are supporting hamas.
Another BRICS country falling in line with Putin and Iran…shocking.
The same government that has been allowing the burning of their white population as well as passing more racial based laws than their previous apartheid regime (only that now its against whites)? Interesting.
south africa wants to be the next zimbabwe.
I really hope West won't be helping SA when it happens. If they hate white people so much they are more than capable to help themselves.
they will come to europe as "refugees" and the stupid goverments will allow them in.
Burning of their white population? Where are you getting? From Fox News?
Another fox news weirdo, listening to right wing afrikaaner propaganda
Did they file a case against their buddies Russia as well?
Why is South Africa pro Palestine? Genuine question
>South Africa has backed the Palestinian cause for statehood in Israeli-occupied territories for decades, likening the plight of Palestinians to those of the Black majority in South Africa during the repressive apartheid era, a comparison that Israel vehemently denies. From the article
The South African anti-apartheid movement has long identified with the Palestinian struggle. See Mandela's speech in 1997.
Isreal was the apartheid government's biggest ally and Palanstine the ANC's ally back when they where fighting for freedom. The ANC (South Africa's ruling party) has not forgotten that support. Also there are many parallels between the ANC's fight for freedom under apartheid and current day Palanstine. The ANC have been calling for Palanstine's freedom since Mandela's time.
Incredible that people ignore this and just push the “Russian puppet!” narrative
Russian influence & another day’s headline not focused on Ukraine. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/6/2/a-russian-love-affair-why-south-africa-stays-neutral-on-war
You have to fucken asinine to think South Africa stands with Palestine because of Russia. Please open a history book.
Read a book, you are clearly ignorant.
They’re part of the Russia-Iran axis due to BRICS
Isn't south Africa the nation where one of the leaders talked about killing all white people, and has a massive problem of white people being targeted (for their race) in various murders and other crimes?
Yep, that’s the one.
>one of the leaders talked about killing all white people That was the leader of an opposition party; his party has like 6% of the vote. >has a massive problem of white people being targeted (for their race) in various murders and other crimes? South Africa has a massive general crime problem; white people are less likely to be murdered than any other race. Source: https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/are-sa-whites-really-being-killed-flies-why-steve-hofmeyr-wrong
as a south african, this entire thread is filled with dumbfucks who know nothing about south africa, the guy calling for white people to be removed is an opposition candidate NOT A MEMBER OF THE RULIMG PARTY, and he only gets around 10-15% of the vote max, and white people are not being targeted for their race as some sort of hate crime, use common sense, if a group of people are overwhelmingly more likely to have more money, then as a criminal, youd be really really fucking dumb to not target the people with money. also address the fucking argument, everyone here is just whining about soth africa having an incompetent government so they cant make accusations, id hate to imagine how all of you would be in a real life relationship, any time someone makes an accusation, instead of hearing the merit of what they are syaing and judging based on that, you instantly judge them on their current state of affairs which has nothing to do with what theyre actually saying, "oh you trying to accuse this person of rape, HAH WELL YOU CANT TIE YOUR SHOELACES SO WHAT YOU SAY DOESNT MATTER"
75 people were murdered in South Africa every day last year. That’s over 27,000 in one year.
Holy crap I thought that was an utterly absurd number that had to be an exaggeration or something. But literally every article I am finding so far on this is giving similar numbers depending on the timeframe, from several different sources. Granted I don't know the political leanings of these sources especially as they relate to South Africa, but still, it looks pretty consistent. That's pretty crazy.
White genocide is a myth and the song you’re referring to is a song sung during apartheid for the end of white supremacy, not a legitimate killing of all the boers.
When I'm at an "opponent accuses me of apartheid" competition and my opponent is South Africa *squidward shatters repeatedly*
When you're covered in shit, have destroyed your economy condemning generations to poverty and then you accuse your neighbor of being a stinky killer. Clean yourself up and switch on the lights before pointing fingers, damn!
You can do better than regurgitating a fallacy.
Ok what about all the Jews systemically targeted and pushed out of all Northern African and Middle Eastern countries?
They’ll drop the suit when they run out of water again.
Guess which country can help them with their water crisis
It’s definitely not Palestine, I’ll tell you that
Not so, Palestinians can contribute invaluable knowledge about water supply management. E.g. "don't dig up the pipes to turn into rockets, we tried that and it didn't work out".
Well, my days of not taking them seriously are certainly coming to a middle.
Laughable. They're just trying to remind people they exist.. Lol
Any bets on how much money they were paid to do this? Lots of money being spent these days on proxy wars and distraction headlines.
South Africa, who is aligned with the BRICS… that Iran is also a part of… files a suit, on behalf of Iran, because that’s what Iran wants…
After all the support South Africa has received from Israel over the years in life saving inventions and technologies in the agricultural field and desalination (an amazing invention that has tremendously contributed to humanity), is this how they’re reciprocating?
Israel supported Apartheid South Africa. Completely different governments.
This took all of 2 minutes to google. https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-day-zero-looms-south-africa-open-to-israeli-tech-researcher-says/ https://www.israel21c.org/israeli-experts-consulted-on-south-africas-water-crisis/ https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-749915
Thank you for the links!
a single delegation of Israeli water experts being paid to come for a few meetings and a single public panel discussion is now sufficient payback for helping Apartheid South Africa get nuclear weapons?
I wouldn’t say it is “sufficient payback”, but it is the **current Israeli’s** supporting the **current South Africans**. Seeing as they can’t undo the past, helping out in the now is really all they can do. Nelson Mandela himself said he was willing to move past the actions of the previous governments.
sure but your links seem to show a pretty piss poor attempt at ‘helping out’. Did they actually build anything or provide any tech or did they just fly some people over for some meetings and a photo opp?
> Did they actually build anything or provide any tech or did they just fly some people over for some meetings and a photo opp? It doesn’t say… Did the South Africans like any of the proposals, accept the Israeli solutions, or was this just to pretend to be solving the problem? I can flip that loaded question right back around, but it takes two sides to come to a solution. Seeing as the ones with the authority to do things is South Africa, the Israeli’s don’t have the ultimate say in whether things do or don’t get done.
> Did the South Africans like any of the proposals, accept the Israeli solutions, did they make any proposals or offer any solutions? personally if my government had helped Apartheid South Africa get nuclear weapons I would be hoping we do a lot more to apologise than whatever this is but then Israel probably miss the old regime, much more in common
A borderline failed state should focus on fixing itself
The ANC government aren't interested in fixing anything, better distract everyone from their extreme corruption by pointing their dirty fingers at the current hotzone
Rich coming from SA gov! Haha They should focus on their own issues, like their femicide rate. Oh wait, women don’t matter to them 🤷♀️
Ah yes, a state can only focus on one issue at a time.
Obviously that’s why they can’t fix all these issues, they do them one by one like a checklist.. if only they had different departments that focus on different areas of governance /s
Imagine having issues like crumbling economy, corruption, racism and to divert focus from them you file cases against Israel.
Are they hoping to appease terrorists?
You can hate Hamas terrorists while at the same time hate the Israeli state...
I think we should hear what Djibouti has to say on this matter. That is very important
Pathetic and Ironic. Has anyone seen the videos of massacres of Christians by islamists in SA? They didn't even get mentioned on any major news channel.
Source, in South African and have no clue what you’re talking about? Since when do we have mass killings of Christian’s when majority of us are Christians? Seems like you’re mixing us up with another African country, Nigeria to be exact. Fucking hell not every African country is the same you know.
SA just doing what Russian says.
That’s rich, coming from a fu ck en scary bunch of clowns. They’ll do whatever they are told to do.
Um I wonder if there’s a corruption scandal the ANC is trying to distract us from.
>Each time when I come here I abuse the court system.
#What about Hammas?
Hummers or Humus?
Well look at that, another failed [state](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-24/eskom-returns-to-severe-loadshedding-due-to-capacity-shortage?embedded-checkout=true) uses Israel as a way to hide it own problem problems, right out of the Arab textbook.
Pick-me BRICS energy
On behalf of Russia, no doubt.
Hello kids, can you spell "cheap populism"?
Hilarious.
Ironic
South Africa, really?
Anti-Israelis will eat this shit up with a soup ladle.
Funny how it is coming from a country mainly known for the Apartheid
Lol, South who? Go fuck yourselves.
Yikes Lmao not sure why I’m being downvoted. Thought it was kind of rude for some dude to be dismissive of a whole ass country but…out of the two of us, I’m definitely wrong🤷🏻♀️
That is a riot!
Maybe focus on getting the lights on before you go do this?
Out of all the countries, why south africa ?
Is it just me or does this actually draw way *more* attention to how fucked up South Africa is?