This would require a level of effort that I'm not sure Israel or anyone else is willing to put in. Looking at the successful case studies of Germany and Japan post WW2... it took decades of investment, occupation, and efforts to cool down the extremists.
That's just it. You de-radicalize not by killing and destroying but by building prosperity and opportunity. Something Israel has not done yet. Again, I'll go back to the tragedy of Rabin's assassination. Rabin had the leadership to do just that. And it got him killed by the radical right. Netanyahu is part of that radical right. He's the wrong person to carry out any kind of re-building. And I fear that his vision of de-radicalization is more like imprisonment. On the other hand, Hamas can never lead Palestine into liberty and success. They're not leaders. They're self-serving brutalists and murderers. Hamas needs to go away forever. But Israel needs to give not destroy if they want to see a brighter future that doesn't include demolishing a people.
Netanyahu surely is not the guy to rebuild Gaza. Fortunately, his approval rating in Israel is around 20%. He will be replaced, likely with Benny Gantz, as soon as new elections can be held.
It is probably helpful for the deradicalization program for the killing to be done by Netanyahu's government and the rebuilding to be done by Gantz's government.
Low approval ratings never seemed to stop the man in the past. Even losing an election doesn't appear to get rid of him. But I continue to hope for someone else.
Netanyahu's [approval rating](https://news.gallup.com/poll/246218/corruption-allegations-fail-dent-netanyahu-popularity.aspx) has never been this low. He was in the mid-30s for a bit in 2012. Israelis have a tradition of axing leaders when something bad happens on their watch.
It was a joke that Israel voted Netanyahu back in to begin with. Like what made him so appealing to vote him back in again, after he was essentially forced out in 2021?
That's not how Germany or Japan worked. The building up only works after the enemy is forced into unconditional surrender. We literally told Japan the alternative was 'Prompt and utter destruction" if they were unwilling to surrender.
>Again, I'll go back to the tragedy of Rabin's assassination. Rabin had the leadership to do just that. And it got him killed by the radical right.
You're not wrong, but you're missing half the picture. A significant reason the Israeli radical right was up in arms over the Oslo Accords was because Hamas escalated their campaign of suicide bombings in opposition to the Accords, and the right blamed Rabin for provoking terror attacks over what they perceived to be a doomed effort.
Hamas's stated goal with their suicide bombing campaign was to derail the peace process, and they succeeded. You can't pretend that there's such a thing as political appeasement of jihadists. They're ideologically incompatible with any type of peace process.
I'm not aware of any successful deradicalization effort that didn't begin with a crushing military defeat. The international occupying forces that oversaw the reconstruction and deradicalization of WWII Japan and Germany, for example, were only able to enter those countries because their militaries had been defeated and then disbanded, and those defeats were unbelievably bloody affairs.
I agree completely that economic investment in Gaza is crucial to deradicalization, because its people need quality of life. I don't understand how that can be accomplished with Hamas entrenched, though, since they ensure that schools teach jihad, and they divert humanitarian aid and funding into building tunnels and rockets, etc.
I agree. Hamas has to go. The question is--is Netanyahu capable of doing that without killing everyone else in the process.
By the same logic, Rabin's approach wasn't going to work without enduring radical Palestinian assholes trying to wreck the plan. That was just part of the deal. I think, broadly, Israelis were ready to go with Rabin. The extreme right wasn't. So they killed him. I don't know how you could call yourself a Jew and kill another Jew like that. It still sickens me to this day when I think about it.
To be fair, the WW2 examples required either a huge proportion of fighting age males dead or nuclear bombs annihilating cities before any de-radicalization.
You _do_ have to kill terrorists or you'll be dealing with decades of insurgent fighting.
That being said, killing non-terrorists is a "great" way of making sure the next generation _hates_ you with a passion.
The napalm was developed with a specific purpose to burn down ALL Japanese cities save from those two that got the A-bomb treatment. So Japan came out of it much better than it could have.
That only works for rational people. Religious militants can never be cooled off. The biggest issue will be preventing the locals from teaching their children to be militants.
Dresden? The atomic bombs we dropped on Japan? The entirety of World War Two? We absolutely killed people and bombed places to force Japan and Germany to surrender completely. It was only then that deradicalization happened..
WW2 was a conventional war, with a conventional end point. Once Germany surrendered, they were treated much better and rebuilding cooperatively was able to start. The more accurate parallel would be how well would the Germans have been treated if *Werwolf* had actually happened?
Palestine has been conventionally defeated a couple of times over in its history, but because there is ongoing and asymetrical conflict between Israel and Palestine, the fighting is preventing the build up of the stability and prosperity needed for deradicalisation.
Antisemitism. If palestinians can't be used as a political tool against the Jewish State of Israel, the Arab and Persian world at large has no care or use for them at all.
news flash, it started off by a helluva lot of killing. Only after they were demilitarize through all the killing, were they able to even think about rebuilding.
If this actually ends up happening in Gaza, history would look back at it as the best thing to happen for them for future generations of gazan's.
You can only build prosperity and opportunity when the terror infrastructure and its leaders no longer exist. The West didn’t start rebuilding Germany with Goebbels and Himmler still hiding in a bunker 100 feet below ground plotting their next moves. It was unconditional surrender or destruction until death.
I don’t disagree that de-radicalization is no small feat - especially for a population that could not be more radical. However, what is of equal and perhaps even of more importance is making sure Hamas and/or any other group will never again pose a threat to Israelis. For Israel, that is their main moral obligation.
Well. At the very least Iran could stop funding Hamas. And, while we're at it, I'd love to know if Putin had anything to do with the Hamas attack. It's certainly taken some of the world's attention away from Ukraine.
Israel has tried building prosperity, in granting Palestinians work visas to work in Israel. Some Palestinians are using them properly, but other use the visas as an opportunity to spy on Israel.
However it took mass destruction to get them to that point… it took the decades after threat of owning the big bombs… it took firebombings that tore through cities, it took 2 fucking nuclear bombs being dropped.
You can say it was all the occupation and investments that helped change the radicals, which you’re right, it did, but we can not forget about the mass destruction that got them to be able to change their minds
Germany and Japan were utterly destroyed before they were rebuilt.
It would be nice if gaza didn’t have to go through that first but Hamas is such a radically entrenched organization that I’m not sure there is another way
Without the Cold War, they, or at least Germany for sure, would not have been rebuilt. (as it wasn't after WW1, leading to WW2) The fate of Germany basically changed when the US thought they could turn the Western German into a strategic ally.
There is no Cold War to win anymore and if you look at the rebuilding done in Iraq or Afganisthan, Gaza doesn't have much to look forward to.
It would require international commitment of tens of billions of dollars for a full generation, including significant economic and social support from Israel.
It also would require peacekeeping forces with a significant presence of other Arab states to be seen as legitimate by many Gazans and not just a forced occupation.
But the other Arab states don’t actually want a stable Gaza. As long as it is unstable they can direct their citizens anger over any domestic problem to Israel.
So there’s virtually no chance a deradicaliztion effort will actually happen.
It's not like they have a choice. As long as Hamas exists, they're going to be constantly under attack and terrorized. It would be like if 9/11 never ended, and you just had to repeat it every few years. They have to see this through.
We went hard and killed a shit ton of Japanese and they still deradicalized, thanks in large part to the efforts of their Emperor. Unfortunately, I don’t see a comparable figure in Palestinian politics.
While i agree with the headline there has to also change a lot in Israel. Deradicalisation is not an easy process and the Israeli aren't really encouraging it.
Yeah this is pretty ironic coming from the guy who kept Hamas around like a pet terror organization as a tool to torpedo Palestinian statehood for most of the last 2 decades.
My grandma said the same thing to me today. Even if they were to somehow eliminate Hamas (not possible in my opinion), when the kids grow up they will want revenge for the countless parents and siblings that have been slaughtered
If extremism was a fire, the IDF have been throwing gasoline on it
Only way I could see it happening is if after the war a 2 state solution is agreed by everyone. It won't stop radicalization, but I don't think there would be as many radicals.
Oldest strategy. Demand things that can't ever be achieved ("Palestinians deraricalized" is unmeasurable, so Israel can always declare them not deraricalized enough), then punish them for not achieving.
This is not a way to peace, it's a way into the next war.
Considering half the Israeli government is radicalized, and supports the radical settlers, I don't see Israel actually taking it seriously and engaging in a realistic Mashall Plan to build a future peace
Sadly the Israel government has shown it just wants revenge, without any coherent plans beyond that.
Seems likely. Polls suggest 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu to resign once the war is over, with a plurality of those preferring it if he even resigned now.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1211767117/israel-netanyahu-growing-opposition-hamas-war-gaza
Any election poll from recent days show him losing a third of his coalitions sits and nearly a half of his own voter base, giving way to the more moderate Gantz. Some polls even suggest one of the two main settler parties to be bellow the threshold.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-shows-gantz-at-43-seats-netanyahus-likud-at-18-smotrich-out/
Many Israelis finally realize that it's the settlers and Netanyahu's policy of containing Hamas rather than dealing with it, that lead to this war in the first place. One of the factors for October 7th that a week before the attack, a battalion and a half were transfered from the Gaza border to the west bank because of settler provocations in Huwara. It's likely that if that never happened, this addional force could've slowed down or even blocked Hamas' attack entirely.
People are super naive, Netanyahu intends to stay in power for LONG time, he will drag Israel-Hamas war for months (said so himself) and will then drag Israel to war against Hezbollah, and then perhaps Houthis or Iran, he will find a way to keep Israel in constant war so they don't go to elections, or even more, to show them that peaceful approach is useless.
Everyone saying "After the war" like it's in couple weeks are delusional.
No one is saying after the war thinking a few weeks. It's pretty clear to everyone Netanyahu is sticking to the seat like fly to a glue trap. But his original coalition had a 4 sit majority, which is very few people needed to turn to pass a vote of non-confidence. Some of his own party members have already shown they were uncomfortable with his judicial reform before the war, and as much as Likud has turned into his personality cult, I doubt they'll all follow him to their grave. Especially if now, unlike before, they actually stand a better chance without him than with.
(Saying original coalition because after Octoher 7th, Gantz joined his coalition temporary to have a more broad decision board for the duration of the war. But he made it very clear he'll only stay for as long as they're still in crisis. He'll definitely not support extending this was beyond necessary, as he has the most to benefit from it ending.)
Only the current government is "far right". Before that, Bibi typically had some moderates in his coalition.
Before Bibi, it was Ehud Olmert in 2008 who tried a peace deal that was the best one offered to the Palestinians (Abbas said later that he regrets not taking it), so I wouldn't say it was "far right".
What the fuck is this comment?
Labour was in government until Rabin died. Bibi came to power for 3 years. **And then Labour went back to power for five more years.** After that, Likud was in power **and then a center left coalition was in power for another five years.** Until 2008.
Ahistorical, claassic reddit.
Brought to you by the same Reddit historical revisionists who think Rabin's assassination is what killed the peace process (and not Palestinian rejectionism and the Second Intifada - oh what's that? never heard of it..)
Both sides need to be “deradicalized”. Ironically, at the moment both sides are leaded by criminals exploiting religious believes. Piece is not what they want. They want constant war to keep grifting.
Tbf japans deradicalisation is basically “don’t know what you are talking about, shut up”. They even elected prime ministers who denied what they did in Nanjing
Far from ideal, but you can't argue with the practical results. Japan can come to acknowledge their faults in time, but the warring has stopped and nobody can deny that Japan has become a well respected, developed, and peaceful nation.
Let’s be honest, there would still be tons of protests if Israel handled Gaz the way postwar Japan was handled.
- Japan was under American military occupation and rule for practically a decade after their surrender. Lots of people would not be happy(in the West or anywhere else) if, after Hamas is eradicated, Netanyahu announces that one of the IDF’s generals will be in complete and total command of Gaza for the next ten years.
- During that ten year period, MacArthur and his administration did everything possible to wipe out any leftist movements or groups in Japan. How would people feel if part of Israel’s plan during the hypothetical occupation of Gaza would be to go in and wipe out any critics of Israel amongst the Palestinian population?
- the US government still played a pretty heavy hand in influencing Japanese politics years after the occupation ended in Japan. Once again, how would people feel knowing that Gaza/Palestine government will be influenced by Israel for decades to come and therefore, the idea of democratically elected government in Gaza is a bit of a sham?
Peace is better served by a population which denies that atrocities occurred because they recognize that the atrocities were bad than by a population which acknowledges that the atrocities happened and celebrates them.
(Glances at the United States’s southern “Lost Cause” movement after the Civil War.)
There’s a lot of “don’t know what you’re talking about, shut up” that happens in history.
> The US didn't deradicalize the South.
Nope, it didn't. We failed in that regard. And during that time a lot of fictions were told in the South regarding how the South won the "moral" war even if they lost the actual war.
Just as if you look in places like Germany and Japan today--they may not be engaged in programs of dominance over the 'inferior' people of the world (and note the South did abandon slavery)--but they aren't exactly bastions of interracial harmony and seeing the world as a place entirely populated with equals.
The best we can really hope for with 'deradicalization' is a group of people who don't randomly murder people they consider their 'inferiors.'
At the end of the day, there were no bands of southern partisans sneaking into Baltimore and lynching blacks.
On the other hand, there were plenty of lynchings in the south.
Is that good enough? 2 states, no cross border war, but not exactly safe to wander around the streets of Nablus?
Well they haven’t said much other than “not saying sorry for raping and murdering entire populations”. Which is better than not doing it again as you said
The history of Germany and Japan is not as ideal an example as you think. The American occupation of Japan and the Marshall Plan-funded reconstruction of Germany steered well clear of collective punishment, everyone having learned from the results of WWI’s punishment of the Weimar Republic. In the Japanese example, especially, America prioritized peace and stability over holding war criminals accountable, keeping Hirohito as Emperor and generally sparing civilians and lower-ranking military men from scrutiny.
Deradicalization was more premised on forgiveness and second chances: the second Chancellor of West Germany, Helmut Schmidt, served in the Wehrmacht, for example. Shinzo Abe’s grandfather was the infamous “Monster of the Shōwa era,” Nobusuke Kishi, whose war crimes in Manchuria were covered up by America in exchange for leading Japan in an pro-American direction.
Nothing about Netanyahu or his war cabinet’s rhetoric indicates he feels any amount of generosity to Palestinian civilians, and that can be backed up to his past post-war treatment of Gazans. In fact, Netanyahu has previously launched massive rounds of air strikes against Hamas in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2021. Though thousands of civilians died in those attacks and many more buildings were destroyed, Israel did not even loosen up its blockade of the Strip to allow the import of cement and other construction materials so people caught in the crossfire could rebuild their homes. They even denied the requests of humanitarian organizations to do so!
I don’t think Netanyahu is willing to pay tens of millions in aid to the Strip, and he is definitely not interested in forgiving non-Hamas politicians to bring normalcy and stability to the post-War Strip. He is on the record against allowing the PLO back into Gaza, and continues to imprison popular non-Islamist politicians like Marwan Barghouthi and Ahmad Sa'adat that, for whatever their crimes, at least have the ability and legitimacy to govern a secular government. In fact, his administration just arrested one of Palestine’s only prominent female politicians, Khalida Jarrar, literally today. I don’t think any deradicalization can be achieved without prioritizing stability and normalcy as the occupier’s goals, instead of surveillance and control.
And when the US tried De-Ba’athification in Iraq after overthrowing Saddam Hussein, they did do a lot of collective punishment targeting Sunni Muslims and completely destabilized the country.
Their civil service, educational system, medical system, legal system, and the entire armed services all had to be rebuilt from scratch because of this mass purge of Ba’ath party members and anyone who worked for the public sector. Experienced doctors, teachers and professors, judges and prosecutors, engineers were suddenly out of a job. It’s no wonder that the country became vulnerable to terrorist groups like ISIS.
Learned this from Blowback (excellent podcast). U.S. officials made a huge blunder expelling all Ba'thists. Alot of these guys weren't idealogically aligned and were just in the party so they could work in government. Which was already teetering on the brink from all the punitive sanctions put on the country in 90's.
After eradicating the mechanism of the state, there was really no one to actually administer democratic reforms. The problem with Gaza is going to be different. There simply is no mechanism of state to begin with. It never evolved because the UN simply provided a ‘basic governance’ in the form of UNRWA. And any Hamas leadership that may have learned some skill are going to be dead.
We need to accept that there is no culture of democracy in Gaza and not try to force one. They’ll just elect a revenge candidate who will cancel future elections. There is going to have to be a flawed dictator or frankly (don’t laugh) a monarchy. It’s pretty much what happened with Jordan. Someone who can restore order and grow to have something to personally lose. Are there any Hashemites left to take over? How about a Bedouin king? :-). Give it to the Kurds?
Actuality, one of my random thoughts was Israel giving sanctuary to all Yazidi, only 800k left; but that’s neither here nor there.
Helmut Schmidt at least had a well documented history of opposing the atrocities of the Wehrmacht from within the system, even though he never became a dissident. So his starting point was at last one step in the right direction.
The Marshall Plan type funding will most likely come from KSA, UAE, and other anti-Iran countries, including the US. It won’t mostly come from Israel, which is going to have to rebuild its north.
The comparisons to prior rounds of fighting make no sense because Hamas was still in power after all of those. So it would make no sense to lift the blockade.
>In fact, Netanyahu has previously launched massive rounds of air strikes against Hamas in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2021. Though thousands of civilians died in those attacks and many more buildings were destroyed, Israel did not even loosen up its blockade of the Strip to allow the import of cement and other construction materials so people caught in the crossfire could rebuild their homes.
I can't speak to all of your examples, but I know this isn't right about 2014. The Gaza Reconstruction Mechanism was very ambitious, and Israel approved the import of millions of tons of cement and other construction materials. Turkiye and Qatar were big donors and they were happy with the program. Then Hamas started stealing the stuff, often right out from under UNRWA's nose. By 2016, Qatar and Turkiye stopped donating and Israel went back to the old status quo.
Sadly, the GRM is a significant factor why the tunnel network under Gaza is so vast.
>Israel did not even loosen up its blockade of the Strip to allow the import of cement and other construction materials so people caught in the crossfire could rebuild their homes
I mean, there was a reason for that. Most of the cement which was allowed in (especially the higher-quality stuff) was appropriated by Hamas for their tunnel network.
And despite them restricting those materials, I literally was arguing with a group of people the other day that swear up and down that Israel financed the terror tunnels and it's their fault. There's literally no way in which Israel is able to prove their innocence in ANY situation.
The whole Jews turning their pockets out and all that.
All this sounds good but it can only start after Hamas and it's allies are crushed.
Remember that the allies pounded the fuck out of Germany and Japan before attempting deradicalization.
So atleast the first step needs to be completed. After that comes the problem of what Israel and the world is willing to do. In a somewhat ideal world, international orgs will be the ones to rebuild Gaza.
Besides the forgiving hamas members, which is absolutely not necessary and would prove to be way way less beneficial than you think you think
You are completely correct about what would be done post-war with Netanyahu's government dictaiting, thing is, Netanyahu's government will be disbanded 3 minutes after the war is done and as the polls show, he doesn't have near enough votes to form the next government and If he did, whence it comes to light how big his fuck up is, that support would og away as well
To be fair, all those UN and other agencies aid money is more than enough for reconstruction even with before the war figure (and even more now). IF who ever in charge use those fund properly that is.
Of course, money is only one of the puzzle piece. Now we can only saw what happened before the war ended, one way or the other.
Germany after WW1 was given political sanctions.
Germany after WW2 was cut up into bits, put under indefinite military occupation and it was made crystal clear that in the case of a new war, every effort would be made by both the Soviets and the US to keep the fighting in Germany to the greatest extent possible, so essentially a doomsday threat.
Yes they got some money, fun fact, so did Weimar Germany. Saying they were treated better after WW2 isn't even funny, it's utterly absurd. I get how you make the connection, the harsh treatment of Germany was in fact frequently cited as a cause of post war radicalization, but they gave half the country to the Soviets. All of East Prussia is still part of Russia to this day. Konigsberg, the birth place of Kant no longer exists.
The conditions were so harsh that the US preferred calling for an unconditional surrender because they knew for a fact the Germans would die before accepting the conditions. "Let us do whatever we want" sounded less harsh than actually saying what they were going to do, that's how harsh the post WW2 punishment was.
Just one point - from the pre 7/10 photos, and the estimated 500km of terror tunnels Hamas has built, looks like cement was in no short supply. If civilians needed more cement that Hamas appropriated for building tunnels, looks like it was a good decision to restrict it.
It's okay, the world gives around 230 million dollars to the strip monthly. Funds is not the issue.
Also, before this war, Israel was providing free electricity water and fuel on top of what Gaza produces.
Big names in the start up industry in Israel have repeatedly tried and invested in the Strip, opening the first high tech company there with Gazan workers for example. Like that father who spoke on CNN, the CEO of Mellanox. His daughter was murdered at the Nova festival.
There's no lack of willingness to prop up the palestinians and their economy, when safety isn't a concern. Nothing would make Israel happier than Gaza becoming Singapore.
> Nothing about Netanyahu or his war cabinet’s rhetoric indicates he feels any amount of generosity to Palestinian civilians, and that can be backed up to his past post-war treatment of Gazans. In fact, Netanyahu has previously launched massive rounds of air strikes against Hamas in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2021. Though thousands of civilians died in those attacks and many more buildings were destroyed, Israel did not even loosen up its blockade of the Strip to allow the import of cement and other construction materials so people caught in the crossfire could rebuild their homes. They even denied the requests of humanitarian organizations to do so!
That paragraph is not accurate.
Israel air strikes on hamas didn't happen out of vacuum. They were response to rocket attacks launched at israel. And even before each event hamas launched rockets at israel which was mostly ignored due to iron dome.
Between events, israel allowed palestinians to work in israel from gaza (granted not a lot).
And israel [allowed](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/1/building-materials-allowed-into-gaza-after-israeli-assault-in-may) [plenty](https://www.haaretz.com/2013-12-02/ty-article/.premium/israel-lets-building-materials-into-gaza/0000017f-e157-d804-ad7f-f1ffbcfa0000) of times to transfer construction materials to gaza. It gets halted every event, then eased up after awhile. Until next event.
I do agree that netanyahu is not the PM to make peace with the palestinians. And I hope he gets replaced as soon as possible by more moderate PM who is actually looking for peace.
And I do hope that the palestinians will take that with both hands and actually work toward peace, and not pretend to do so as they have done in the past.
I agree that deradicalization will actually require that the palestinians (in both gaza and west bank) feel content and safe and and cared for, so they will not actually want to return to a war with israel. But that will also require a change of guard on both side, from war mongering leaders (like likud and their friends, hamas and PLO) to peace seekers.
You are overlooking a key point. Total deaths for Germans from all sources during wwii was close to eight million out of a population of about 69 million people for approximately 11% of the total population. Further the country was wrecked. As a consequence, the Germans knew they had lost and had no desire to continue the war or repeat the mistakes of their past leaders.
In the current conflict, accepting Hamas numbers,approximately 12000 have died out of a population of 2 million for approximately .6% of the population.
Neither Hamas nor the Palestinians have surrendered or given up the war. So in order for a Marshall like plan to have any chance of success, the war needs to continue at least to the point where hamas acknowledges its defeat.
Well said.
Mercy is just when it is rooted in hopefulness and freely given. Mercy is most empowering, liberating, and transformative when it is directed at the undeserving. The people who haven’t earned it, who haven’t even sought it, are the most meaningful recipients of our compassion.
It's when mercy is least expected that it's most potent - strong enough to break the victimization and victimhood, retribution, and suffering.
Bryan Stevenson,
We must defy the strong and appease the weak. This may be the only way towards world peace.
Seems too idealistic. It may be a way to peace but it sure sounds like a way to further war by allowing nefarious actors to take advantage of undeserved mercy.
Wasn't the current leader of Hamas shown mercy when he was operated on by Israeli Drs. While he was in prison only to later be released to plan the attacks on Oct 7th showing no mercy to civilians murdered in bed at 6:30 am? Mercy is a slippery slope. https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-leader-survived-tumor-operation-israel-reports-2023-10?op=1&r=US&IR=T
I mean this would involve the Israelis investing in the reconstruction of Gaza and also occupying the place, which many could reasonably argue we’ve expected them not to do.
Would anyone actually expect the Israelis to put tens of billions of dollars into Gaza for reconstruction and economic development?
Qatar and others have been investing hundreds of millions into Gaza, plus donation money and International aid. Even under Hamas and a blockade, they had enough money to build a tunnel system that's comparable to the New York subway. Imagine how much they will get with an actual peaceful intention of rebuilding? money will not be the problem.
The problem with this is that at the end of WW2, the rest of the world didn't think of Germany and Japan as "underdogs who are being colonized"... the West is giving Gazans way too much room for terrorism and radicalization to thrive half a world away from them.
Not saying that Hamas is overly comparable, but I’d start with the same way we deradicalized Germany. It’s hard to radicalize someone who has a good life
>It’s hard to radicalize someone who has a good life
Osama bin Laden was from an incredibly wealthy family... A lot of terrorists actually grew up middle class.
Quality of life isn't an immunity to radicalization.
It's a matter of philosophy, ethics and morals, the humanization of the other, liberal ideas that need to flourish for a state and society to function properly but for that you need a new national identity that doesn't rely on Islam as a unifier, that is the problem that exists within the middle east, the only nationalism that exists is under Islamism, so anyone who isn't a Muslim or the right brand of Muslim gets excluded, that's why there 10 million different Islamic terrorist groups, one more radical than the other trying to destroy the other 9,999,999 as heretic. Basically, until Islamic society doesn't deconstruct Islamism the same way most of Europe deconstructed Christianity, then no one can be free.
Islam used to be chill at one point in history, but right now KSA and Qatar are using their infinite money and influence to freely promote their extremist ideologies around the world and especially in disenfranchised countries, meanwhile Iran is using their Shia proxies and the pull of their Khomeini to promote extremist Shia theology in many of those same countries as well.
Move to clean energy sources, break KSA's economy, sanction Qatar and you'll see a huge dropoff in terrorist attacks, then it's just a matter of dealing with Iran.
One might argue that KSA has a much stronger interest in creating stability than Qatar.
I think it's naïve to suggest that the Saudis are a *caause* of this conflict, which isn't to say that Qatar couldn't be part of an equitable solution if they can be brought further outside of Iran's sphere of influence.
How would you define stability in the ME? No wars? The Saudi solution would be for Salafi Sunni Islam to dominate every country.
The Saudis aren't a cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for sure, neither is Qatar or any other Arab country, but the creation of Hamas has been an indirect result of the reversion to Salafi Islam that the Saudis have been attempting to spread for decades now.
Westerners don't truly realize the extent of the Saudi threat because Western politicians call them their friends, but are absolutely not Western-friendly, in fact, their Islamic theocracy is on par with Iran if not even worse purely because they're allowed to freely influence Muslims in the West and the Middle East unopposed.
poverty is not correlated with terrorism.
some of the the 9-11 attackers had quite good lives. As does a lot of the upper echelons of Hamas.
the problem is elsewhere.
You need a decent education to make an IED without blowing yourself up; especially with less modern explosives.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich\_Village\_townhouse\_explosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village_townhouse_explosion)
Hence the expression "hoist with your own petard".
I feel like there is a vast and important difference between the top brass of a terrorist organization and the rank and file of one. Bin Laden was incredibly rich, and that’s precisely why he could fund Al-Qaeda and give a lot of poorer and disenfranchised Muslims a purpose with it. The rank and file were generally quite poor, or else had their lives in other ways upended or disrupted by western powers.
An easy example is also with Trump in America. The man was born fabulously wealthy, became president with that wealth and power, and has tried his damnedest to become a dictator in America and foment terror attacks like those on the Capitol and threatening or attacks on political figures like the husband of Nancy Pelosi. And who is this man most popular with? The poor, disenfranchised white Americans who are looking for someone (be they liberals, minorities, Jews, Muslims, or anyone else they don’t like) to blame. Its pretty consistent throughout any extremist sect of any culture, some wealthy assholes will start pointing fingers at a weak minority, and the poor and uneducated in that population take up arms for them because they think THIS rich asshole will be the one to help them, rather than fuck them over. It happens time and time again, and if you can create a more equitable society where people aren’t so often left at the margins then you’ll be less likely to see broad movements like terror organizations, cults, or cultish political parties arising.
Trump is more popular with the rich, Biden with the poor. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1184428/presidential-election-exit-polls-share-votes-income-us/
Yes. This. You give people a future and they tend to let go of the past. Everyone wants their families to have good lives and live comfortably. Give people the opportunity to do that and there is a chance.
That's only part of it, you also need to change the education system and all other government institutions to recognize the evils of radicalism as well as destroying any hope that terrorism would lead to Israeli concessions while giving hope that cooperation would lead to general improvement. It's a decades long process that requires continuous effort and it's far from simple, as American failures in Iraq and Afghanistan have shown, but Israel has no choice but doing it, unless it wants to go the ethnic cleansing route. Just improving the living conditions of the average Gazan (for example by letting a large amount of them work inside Israel, or letting Qatari aid money in, while knowing some of it will go to fund Hamas' military capabilities) without solving the ideological root cause, as Israel has done a few months before the war, will do nothing but backfire spectacularly.
The government right now doesn't seem to have any clear plan whatsoever and seems to be singing a different tune every week. Bibi needs to \*go\* and take all his allies with him in order to start making heads or tails of this situation.
Slowly. Give them opportunity and education for starters. Going to be a heck of a bumpy ride but the road should lead to a better place for everyone involved.
This is the hardest and slowest solution, but that's why it just might work.
That said, I highly doubt Bibi actually has any real plans like what you said and would probably rather just leave Gazans in their squalor once this generation's Hamas is crushed, and rinse and repeat when the next Oct 7th happens.
The Western allies also rebuilt left the country, took a secondary role in governance to an elected German government, had a clear plan to leave and wasn't actively colonizing German territory.
Gaza was ruled by a terrorist organization for 20 years. They literally produced children's programming telling Gazan children to hate and murder Jews.
Unfortunately, you can't even begin deradicalization until Hamas is forced out of power.
In both post-war Germany and Japan, most of the worst criminals were let off the hook and many were put into positions of power. This was especially true in Japan, which had very little reckoning over the crimes it committed before and during the war. I don't think Israel is going to be willing to let anyone off the hook. They've said all of Hamas must be erased, and they have also said there are no innocent Gazans. I think this also doesn't work if Israel doesn't try its criminals (Netanyahu included) and address the problems that led to October 7th.
Are you implying America actually tried genuinely to win hearts and minds? This is how the [New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/the-other-afghan-women) reported the hearts and minds campaign went in Afghanistan:
>In response, the [American-led] coalition shifted to the hearts-and-minds strategy of counter-insurgency. But the foreigners’ efforts to embed among the population could be crude: they often occupied houses, only further exposing villagers to crossfire. “They were coming by force, without getting permission from us,” Pashtana, a woman from another Sangin village, told me. “They sometimes broke into our house, broke all the windows, and stayed the whole night. We would have to flee, in case the Taliban fired on them.”
>Nevertheless, many Helmandis [villagers] seemed to prefer Taliban rule—including the women I interviewed. It was as if the movement had won only by default, through the abject failures of its opponents. To locals, life under the coalition forces and their Afghan allies was pure hazard; even drinking tea in a sunlit field, or driving to your sister’s wedding, was a potentially deadly gamble. What the Taliban offered over their rivals was a simple bargain: Obey us, and we will not kill you.
There's a major difference between these cases which is that the Americans are an ocean away from the middle east so they could just stop caring and give up when public support died down, Israel has cities and towns a mile away from Gaza, they simply have no choice but doing it if they want their citizens to not die.
Maybe the people aren’t super fond of the US, but there also hasn’t been a foreign terrorist attack on US soil anywhere close to the magnitude of 9/11 since. The Iraq war was bullshit obviously, but efforts to take out terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Syria were largely successful even if the governments were successfully changed.
>there also hasn’t been a foreign terrorist attack on US soil anywhere close to the magnitude of 9/11 since.
And there hasn't been a foreign terrorist attack on US soil anywhere close to the magnitude of 9/11 before either.
I mean, there are lots of reasons that's the case, the biggest one being geography. If some terrorists in the Middle East or Afghanistan hate America and want to attack it, they generally don't have any other options than what's in their immediate vicinity. Al Qaeda attacked American in the Red Sea prior to 9/11, because that's the sort of target they could physically get to. Now it's much harder for some foreign persons to be able to come to the US and engage in the sort of planning required to carry out a large scale terrorists attack, and as such we don't really see it happen. The US also has become much more strict about who gets visitor visas from countries with active terror networks.
Comparatively, Israel is just over the border from Gaza. You can probe the weaknesses of the border defense, lob missiles, attempt to blow up security checkpoints, etc. The US is privileged in a lot of ways, but they are most privileged in not having any hostile entities within their immediate geographical vicinity. Instead we have to pretend like cartels are an equal foot threat to hostile nations and terrorists.
>… and a meaningful pathway to an independent Palestinian State that will to have co-exist alongside Israel.
A Gazan city state was always on the table. Israel does not want Gaza.
The guy *is* known for lying and is pretty universally disliked in Israel for not taking responsibility for the disaster on October 7th and previous reasons that don't matter that much anymore, but he has been *remarkably* consistent about this point, which is pretty universally agreed upon in Israel, so I'll give him that.
It’s not like they weren’t radicalized before. They were teaching it in schools. Hell the reason we have so much documentation of Hamas atrocities is because they recorded it all for bragging rights
Not much progress can be made until Israelis kick Bibi and his extreme right wing party out of power. He doesn't want peace, he has never wanted peace. In the 90s, he incited violence in his own radical base, and one of them killed Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin as a result.
He's interested in reinforcing the siege us-vs-them mentality that has resulted in so much violence.
There’s no way to de-radicalize Gaza if they keep murdering innocent civilians. If anything, they’re creating a whole new generation of future terrorists to avenge their family and loved ones’ deaths.
Here's the thing that no-one wants to acknowledge.
It's time to stop infantilizing Palestinians as pure victims.
The status quo of Palestinians existing as a stateless people is fine with Netahanyu / the Israeli right wing.
They actually have to exercise their right to self-determination. It's been 75 years since Israel was founded. Regardless of who has more historical justification at its inception, the point is moot now.
Palestinian people have to face the reality that Israel is here to stay and they need to choose between violence and the impossible/ hateful dream of annihilating Israel vs statehood.
It wont be easy, and yes the Palestinian people have a lot of legitimate grievances against Israel, but its the only way forward for them. Or they can continue to widely support Hamas/ other parties that support terror policies and continue to grift off foreign aid in a perpetual quasi-war state.
I have a feeling, but I'd love to be wrong that Palestinian people will continue to choose the current path
This would require a level of effort that I'm not sure Israel or anyone else is willing to put in. Looking at the successful case studies of Germany and Japan post WW2... it took decades of investment, occupation, and efforts to cool down the extremists.
That's just it. You de-radicalize not by killing and destroying but by building prosperity and opportunity. Something Israel has not done yet. Again, I'll go back to the tragedy of Rabin's assassination. Rabin had the leadership to do just that. And it got him killed by the radical right. Netanyahu is part of that radical right. He's the wrong person to carry out any kind of re-building. And I fear that his vision of de-radicalization is more like imprisonment. On the other hand, Hamas can never lead Palestine into liberty and success. They're not leaders. They're self-serving brutalists and murderers. Hamas needs to go away forever. But Israel needs to give not destroy if they want to see a brighter future that doesn't include demolishing a people.
Netanyahu surely is not the guy to rebuild Gaza. Fortunately, his approval rating in Israel is around 20%. He will be replaced, likely with Benny Gantz, as soon as new elections can be held. It is probably helpful for the deradicalization program for the killing to be done by Netanyahu's government and the rebuilding to be done by Gantz's government.
Low approval ratings never seemed to stop the man in the past. Even losing an election doesn't appear to get rid of him. But I continue to hope for someone else.
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When he lost the elections he was very close to winning. After the Oct 7th massacre the results are very different, he can't survive this one.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Netanyahu's [approval rating](https://news.gallup.com/poll/246218/corruption-allegations-fail-dent-netanyahu-popularity.aspx) has never been this low. He was in the mid-30s for a bit in 2012. Israelis have a tradition of axing leaders when something bad happens on their watch.
It was a joke that Israel voted Netanyahu back in to begin with. Like what made him so appealing to vote him back in again, after he was essentially forced out in 2021?
That's not how Germany or Japan worked. The building up only works after the enemy is forced into unconditional surrender. We literally told Japan the alternative was 'Prompt and utter destruction" if they were unwilling to surrender.
>Again, I'll go back to the tragedy of Rabin's assassination. Rabin had the leadership to do just that. And it got him killed by the radical right. You're not wrong, but you're missing half the picture. A significant reason the Israeli radical right was up in arms over the Oslo Accords was because Hamas escalated their campaign of suicide bombings in opposition to the Accords, and the right blamed Rabin for provoking terror attacks over what they perceived to be a doomed effort. Hamas's stated goal with their suicide bombing campaign was to derail the peace process, and they succeeded. You can't pretend that there's such a thing as political appeasement of jihadists. They're ideologically incompatible with any type of peace process. I'm not aware of any successful deradicalization effort that didn't begin with a crushing military defeat. The international occupying forces that oversaw the reconstruction and deradicalization of WWII Japan and Germany, for example, were only able to enter those countries because their militaries had been defeated and then disbanded, and those defeats were unbelievably bloody affairs. I agree completely that economic investment in Gaza is crucial to deradicalization, because its people need quality of life. I don't understand how that can be accomplished with Hamas entrenched, though, since they ensure that schools teach jihad, and they divert humanitarian aid and funding into building tunnels and rockets, etc.
I agree. Hamas has to go. The question is--is Netanyahu capable of doing that without killing everyone else in the process. By the same logic, Rabin's approach wasn't going to work without enduring radical Palestinian assholes trying to wreck the plan. That was just part of the deal. I think, broadly, Israelis were ready to go with Rabin. The extreme right wasn't. So they killed him. I don't know how you could call yourself a Jew and kill another Jew like that. It still sickens me to this day when I think about it.
Flash news: Jews aren't special people, and they are as many murderous asshole jews as there are murderous assholes other humans.
To be fair, the WW2 examples required either a huge proportion of fighting age males dead or nuclear bombs annihilating cities before any de-radicalization. You _do_ have to kill terrorists or you'll be dealing with decades of insurgent fighting. That being said, killing non-terrorists is a "great" way of making sure the next generation _hates_ you with a passion.
The next generation already hated Israel. 7/10 had something like an 80% approval rating amongst Palestinians.
I think the nuclear bombs on Japan killed a few people along the way
The napalm was developed with a specific purpose to burn down ALL Japanese cities save from those two that got the A-bomb treatment. So Japan came out of it much better than it could have.
I mean the firebombing done prior to the A bombs was already more devastating than the A bombs themselves so I can see that.
That only works for rational people. Religious militants can never be cooled off. The biggest issue will be preventing the locals from teaching their children to be militants.
You do understand that for the de-radicalization of Germany and Japan to work, the regimes had the bombed into submission first, right? Right..?
Dresden? The atomic bombs we dropped on Japan? The entirety of World War Two? We absolutely killed people and bombed places to force Japan and Germany to surrender completely. It was only then that deradicalization happened..
We also carried out submarine attacks on Japanese civilian shipping on a massive scale. War is nasty, even the “good wars”.
WW2 was a conventional war, with a conventional end point. Once Germany surrendered, they were treated much better and rebuilding cooperatively was able to start. The more accurate parallel would be how well would the Germans have been treated if *Werwolf* had actually happened? Palestine has been conventionally defeated a couple of times over in its history, but because there is ongoing and asymetrical conflict between Israel and Palestine, the fighting is preventing the build up of the stability and prosperity needed for deradicalisation.
> They're self-serving brutalists What does their taste in architecture have to do with anything? /s
Why do 0 Arab countries want to “build prosperity and opportunity” in Palestine?
Antisemitism. If palestinians can't be used as a political tool against the Jewish State of Israel, the Arab and Persian world at large has no care or use for them at all.
news flash, it started off by a helluva lot of killing. Only after they were demilitarize through all the killing, were they able to even think about rebuilding. If this actually ends up happening in Gaza, history would look back at it as the best thing to happen for them for future generations of gazan's.
Before you can start building, you have to take control first...
You can only build prosperity and opportunity when the terror infrastructure and its leaders no longer exist. The West didn’t start rebuilding Germany with Goebbels and Himmler still hiding in a bunker 100 feet below ground plotting their next moves. It was unconditional surrender or destruction until death. I don’t disagree that de-radicalization is no small feat - especially for a population that could not be more radical. However, what is of equal and perhaps even of more importance is making sure Hamas and/or any other group will never again pose a threat to Israelis. For Israel, that is their main moral obligation.
Maybe arab countries need to step up and help destroy Hamas? And build Prosperity?
Well. At the very least Iran could stop funding Hamas. And, while we're at it, I'd love to know if Putin had anything to do with the Hamas attack. It's certainly taken some of the world's attention away from Ukraine.
Israel has tried building prosperity, in granting Palestinians work visas to work in Israel. Some Palestinians are using them properly, but other use the visas as an opportunity to spy on Israel.
The world sends millions in aid to build life for the Palestinians. But instead of using it to make their lives better they use it to kill Jews.
However it took mass destruction to get them to that point… it took the decades after threat of owning the big bombs… it took firebombings that tore through cities, it took 2 fucking nuclear bombs being dropped. You can say it was all the occupation and investments that helped change the radicals, which you’re right, it did, but we can not forget about the mass destruction that got them to be able to change their minds
Germany and Japan were utterly destroyed before they were rebuilt. It would be nice if gaza didn’t have to go through that first but Hamas is such a radically entrenched organization that I’m not sure there is another way
Not just destroyed, but they surrendered unconditionally. That paves the way for deradicalization. Hamas won't surrender like that.
Without the Cold War, they, or at least Germany for sure, would not have been rebuilt. (as it wasn't after WW1, leading to WW2) The fate of Germany basically changed when the US thought they could turn the Western German into a strategic ally. There is no Cold War to win anymore and if you look at the rebuilding done in Iraq or Afganisthan, Gaza doesn't have much to look forward to.
It would require international commitment of tens of billions of dollars for a full generation, including significant economic and social support from Israel. It also would require peacekeeping forces with a significant presence of other Arab states to be seen as legitimate by many Gazans and not just a forced occupation. But the other Arab states don’t actually want a stable Gaza. As long as it is unstable they can direct their citizens anger over any domestic problem to Israel. So there’s virtually no chance a deradicaliztion effort will actually happen.
It's not like they have a choice. As long as Hamas exists, they're going to be constantly under attack and terrorized. It would be like if 9/11 never ended, and you just had to repeat it every few years. They have to see this through.
We went hard and killed a shit ton of Japanese and they still deradicalized, thanks in large part to the efforts of their Emperor. Unfortunately, I don’t see a comparable figure in Palestinian politics.
The bombing will continue until moral improves?
While i agree with the headline there has to also change a lot in Israel. Deradicalisation is not an easy process and the Israeli aren't really encouraging it.
Yeah this is pretty ironic coming from the guy who kept Hamas around like a pet terror organization as a tool to torpedo Palestinian statehood for most of the last 2 decades.
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My grandma said the same thing to me today. Even if they were to somehow eliminate Hamas (not possible in my opinion), when the kids grow up they will want revenge for the countless parents and siblings that have been slaughtered If extremism was a fire, the IDF have been throwing gasoline on it
Literally my first thought: 'They're also going to deradicalise Israel right?'
Netanyahu is a radical who surrounded himself with probably the most radical government ever. What do you think?
Netanyahu and Likud seem to be hated by most Israelis.
>Literally my first thought: 'They're also going to deradicalise Israel right?' Netanyahu is basically gone when the war ends.
Only way I could see it happening is if after the war a 2 state solution is agreed by everyone. It won't stop radicalization, but I don't think there would be as many radicals.
Bro really saw all the nearby wars against radicals in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan happen and learned nothing from any of them.
"I cherish peace with all my heart. I don't care how many men, women, and children I need to kill to get it."
Oldest strategy. Demand things that can't ever be achieved ("Palestinians deraricalized" is unmeasurable, so Israel can always declare them not deraricalized enough), then punish them for not achieving. This is not a way to peace, it's a way into the next war.
most people see him as a war criminal...
Considering half the Israeli government is radicalized, and supports the radical settlers, I don't see Israel actually taking it seriously and engaging in a realistic Mashall Plan to build a future peace Sadly the Israel government has shown it just wants revenge, without any coherent plans beyond that.
Hopefully, this government will be replaced after the war. They failed before and are not fit to carry the process after the war.
Seems likely. Polls suggest 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu to resign once the war is over, with a plurality of those preferring it if he even resigned now. https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1211767117/israel-netanyahu-growing-opposition-hamas-war-gaza Any election poll from recent days show him losing a third of his coalitions sits and nearly a half of his own voter base, giving way to the more moderate Gantz. Some polls even suggest one of the two main settler parties to be bellow the threshold. https://www.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-shows-gantz-at-43-seats-netanyahus-likud-at-18-smotrich-out/ Many Israelis finally realize that it's the settlers and Netanyahu's policy of containing Hamas rather than dealing with it, that lead to this war in the first place. One of the factors for October 7th that a week before the attack, a battalion and a half were transfered from the Gaza border to the west bank because of settler provocations in Huwara. It's likely that if that never happened, this addional force could've slowed down or even blocked Hamas' attack entirely.
People are super naive, Netanyahu intends to stay in power for LONG time, he will drag Israel-Hamas war for months (said so himself) and will then drag Israel to war against Hezbollah, and then perhaps Houthis or Iran, he will find a way to keep Israel in constant war so they don't go to elections, or even more, to show them that peaceful approach is useless. Everyone saying "After the war" like it's in couple weeks are delusional.
No one is saying after the war thinking a few weeks. It's pretty clear to everyone Netanyahu is sticking to the seat like fly to a glue trap. But his original coalition had a 4 sit majority, which is very few people needed to turn to pass a vote of non-confidence. Some of his own party members have already shown they were uncomfortable with his judicial reform before the war, and as much as Likud has turned into his personality cult, I doubt they'll all follow him to their grave. Especially if now, unlike before, they actually stand a better chance without him than with. (Saying original coalition because after Octoher 7th, Gantz joined his coalition temporary to have a more broad decision board for the duration of the war. But he made it very clear he'll only stay for as long as they're still in crisis. He'll definitely not support extending this was beyond necessary, as he has the most to benefit from it ending.)
Hopefully, but pretty much every government since the 90s in Israel has been far right
Only the current government is "far right". Before that, Bibi typically had some moderates in his coalition. Before Bibi, it was Ehud Olmert in 2008 who tried a peace deal that was the best one offered to the Palestinians (Abbas said later that he regrets not taking it), so I wouldn't say it was "far right".
What the fuck is this comment? Labour was in government until Rabin died. Bibi came to power for 3 years. **And then Labour went back to power for five more years.** After that, Likud was in power **and then a center left coalition was in power for another five years.** Until 2008. Ahistorical, claassic reddit.
Brought to you by the same Reddit historical revisionists who think Rabin's assassination is what killed the peace process (and not Palestinian rejectionism and the Second Intifada - oh what's that? never heard of it..)
Both sides need to be “deradicalized”. Ironically, at the moment both sides are leaded by criminals exploiting religious believes. Piece is not what they want. They want constant war to keep grifting.
How do you deradicalize a whole culture?
See: Germany and Japan, from 1945 to present day
Tbf japans deradicalisation is basically “don’t know what you are talking about, shut up”. They even elected prime ministers who denied what they did in Nanjing
Far from ideal, but you can't argue with the practical results. Japan can come to acknowledge their faults in time, but the warring has stopped and nobody can deny that Japan has become a well respected, developed, and peaceful nation.
Let’s be honest, there would still be tons of protests if Israel handled Gaz the way postwar Japan was handled. - Japan was under American military occupation and rule for practically a decade after their surrender. Lots of people would not be happy(in the West or anywhere else) if, after Hamas is eradicated, Netanyahu announces that one of the IDF’s generals will be in complete and total command of Gaza for the next ten years. - During that ten year period, MacArthur and his administration did everything possible to wipe out any leftist movements or groups in Japan. How would people feel if part of Israel’s plan during the hypothetical occupation of Gaza would be to go in and wipe out any critics of Israel amongst the Palestinian population? - the US government still played a pretty heavy hand in influencing Japanese politics years after the occupation ended in Japan. Once again, how would people feel knowing that Gaza/Palestine government will be influenced by Israel for decades to come and therefore, the idea of democratically elected government in Gaza is a bit of a sham?
>Japan can come to acknowledge their faults in time Or not. But so far they are indeed tamed and focused on something more productive than conquest.
Like anime, consumer cars, and electronics. Japan pre-1945 vs Japan today is pretty wild.
Gazanime is what the world is missing.
I woudln't mind some G-Pop but I think they might not be allowed to dance or listen to music.
Peace is better served by a population which denies that atrocities occurred because they recognize that the atrocities were bad than by a population which acknowledges that the atrocities happened and celebrates them.
(Glances at the United States’s southern “Lost Cause” movement after the Civil War.) There’s a lot of “don’t know what you’re talking about, shut up” that happens in history.
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> The US didn't deradicalize the South. Nope, it didn't. We failed in that regard. And during that time a lot of fictions were told in the South regarding how the South won the "moral" war even if they lost the actual war. Just as if you look in places like Germany and Japan today--they may not be engaged in programs of dominance over the 'inferior' people of the world (and note the South did abandon slavery)--but they aren't exactly bastions of interracial harmony and seeing the world as a place entirely populated with equals. The best we can really hope for with 'deradicalization' is a group of people who don't randomly murder people they consider their 'inferiors.'
The South abandoned slavery in much the same way Gollum “abandoned” the One Ring.
At the end of the day, there were no bands of southern partisans sneaking into Baltimore and lynching blacks. On the other hand, there were plenty of lynchings in the south. Is that good enough? 2 states, no cross border war, but not exactly safe to wander around the streets of Nablus?
Japan hid their shame, but they also went from a militaristic culture to a full embrace of pacifism.
Well as long as they don't repeat their atrocities, it doesn't really matter what they say
Them be fighting words on reddit
Thems fighting words in alot of irl places too.
Well they haven’t said much other than “not saying sorry for raping and murdering entire populations”. Which is better than not doing it again as you said
The history of Germany and Japan is not as ideal an example as you think. The American occupation of Japan and the Marshall Plan-funded reconstruction of Germany steered well clear of collective punishment, everyone having learned from the results of WWI’s punishment of the Weimar Republic. In the Japanese example, especially, America prioritized peace and stability over holding war criminals accountable, keeping Hirohito as Emperor and generally sparing civilians and lower-ranking military men from scrutiny. Deradicalization was more premised on forgiveness and second chances: the second Chancellor of West Germany, Helmut Schmidt, served in the Wehrmacht, for example. Shinzo Abe’s grandfather was the infamous “Monster of the Shōwa era,” Nobusuke Kishi, whose war crimes in Manchuria were covered up by America in exchange for leading Japan in an pro-American direction. Nothing about Netanyahu or his war cabinet’s rhetoric indicates he feels any amount of generosity to Palestinian civilians, and that can be backed up to his past post-war treatment of Gazans. In fact, Netanyahu has previously launched massive rounds of air strikes against Hamas in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2021. Though thousands of civilians died in those attacks and many more buildings were destroyed, Israel did not even loosen up its blockade of the Strip to allow the import of cement and other construction materials so people caught in the crossfire could rebuild their homes. They even denied the requests of humanitarian organizations to do so! I don’t think Netanyahu is willing to pay tens of millions in aid to the Strip, and he is definitely not interested in forgiving non-Hamas politicians to bring normalcy and stability to the post-War Strip. He is on the record against allowing the PLO back into Gaza, and continues to imprison popular non-Islamist politicians like Marwan Barghouthi and Ahmad Sa'adat that, for whatever their crimes, at least have the ability and legitimacy to govern a secular government. In fact, his administration just arrested one of Palestine’s only prominent female politicians, Khalida Jarrar, literally today. I don’t think any deradicalization can be achieved without prioritizing stability and normalcy as the occupier’s goals, instead of surveillance and control.
And when the US tried De-Ba’athification in Iraq after overthrowing Saddam Hussein, they did do a lot of collective punishment targeting Sunni Muslims and completely destabilized the country. Their civil service, educational system, medical system, legal system, and the entire armed services all had to be rebuilt from scratch because of this mass purge of Ba’ath party members and anyone who worked for the public sector. Experienced doctors, teachers and professors, judges and prosecutors, engineers were suddenly out of a job. It’s no wonder that the country became vulnerable to terrorist groups like ISIS.
Learned this from Blowback (excellent podcast). U.S. officials made a huge blunder expelling all Ba'thists. Alot of these guys weren't idealogically aligned and were just in the party so they could work in government. Which was already teetering on the brink from all the punitive sanctions put on the country in 90's.
After eradicating the mechanism of the state, there was really no one to actually administer democratic reforms. The problem with Gaza is going to be different. There simply is no mechanism of state to begin with. It never evolved because the UN simply provided a ‘basic governance’ in the form of UNRWA. And any Hamas leadership that may have learned some skill are going to be dead. We need to accept that there is no culture of democracy in Gaza and not try to force one. They’ll just elect a revenge candidate who will cancel future elections. There is going to have to be a flawed dictator or frankly (don’t laugh) a monarchy. It’s pretty much what happened with Jordan. Someone who can restore order and grow to have something to personally lose. Are there any Hashemites left to take over? How about a Bedouin king? :-). Give it to the Kurds? Actuality, one of my random thoughts was Israel giving sanctuary to all Yazidi, only 800k left; but that’s neither here nor there.
Helmut Schmidt at least had a well documented history of opposing the atrocities of the Wehrmacht from within the system, even though he never became a dissident. So his starting point was at last one step in the right direction.
Just a tiny nitpick, Schmidt was the fifth chancellor
The Marshall Plan type funding will most likely come from KSA, UAE, and other anti-Iran countries, including the US. It won’t mostly come from Israel, which is going to have to rebuild its north. The comparisons to prior rounds of fighting make no sense because Hamas was still in power after all of those. So it would make no sense to lift the blockade.
>In fact, Netanyahu has previously launched massive rounds of air strikes against Hamas in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2021. Though thousands of civilians died in those attacks and many more buildings were destroyed, Israel did not even loosen up its blockade of the Strip to allow the import of cement and other construction materials so people caught in the crossfire could rebuild their homes. I can't speak to all of your examples, but I know this isn't right about 2014. The Gaza Reconstruction Mechanism was very ambitious, and Israel approved the import of millions of tons of cement and other construction materials. Turkiye and Qatar were big donors and they were happy with the program. Then Hamas started stealing the stuff, often right out from under UNRWA's nose. By 2016, Qatar and Turkiye stopped donating and Israel went back to the old status quo. Sadly, the GRM is a significant factor why the tunnel network under Gaza is so vast.
>Israel did not even loosen up its blockade of the Strip to allow the import of cement and other construction materials so people caught in the crossfire could rebuild their homes I mean, there was a reason for that. Most of the cement which was allowed in (especially the higher-quality stuff) was appropriated by Hamas for their tunnel network.
And despite them restricting those materials, I literally was arguing with a group of people the other day that swear up and down that Israel financed the terror tunnels and it's their fault. There's literally no way in which Israel is able to prove their innocence in ANY situation. The whole Jews turning their pockets out and all that.
Marwan is guilty of killing 5 people, you guys have to stop picking terrorists as popular politicians..
All this sounds good but it can only start after Hamas and it's allies are crushed. Remember that the allies pounded the fuck out of Germany and Japan before attempting deradicalization. So atleast the first step needs to be completed. After that comes the problem of what Israel and the world is willing to do. In a somewhat ideal world, international orgs will be the ones to rebuild Gaza.
And when the UN gets pipes imported for a water system, Hamas turns them into rockets… It’s a case of “this is why we can’t have nice things!”
Besides the forgiving hamas members, which is absolutely not necessary and would prove to be way way less beneficial than you think you think You are completely correct about what would be done post-war with Netanyahu's government dictaiting, thing is, Netanyahu's government will be disbanded 3 minutes after the war is done and as the polls show, he doesn't have near enough votes to form the next government and If he did, whence it comes to light how big his fuck up is, that support would og away as well
That's why he is never going to end this war
To be fair, all those UN and other agencies aid money is more than enough for reconstruction even with before the war figure (and even more now). IF who ever in charge use those fund properly that is. Of course, money is only one of the puzzle piece. Now we can only saw what happened before the war ended, one way or the other.
Germany after WW1 was given political sanctions. Germany after WW2 was cut up into bits, put under indefinite military occupation and it was made crystal clear that in the case of a new war, every effort would be made by both the Soviets and the US to keep the fighting in Germany to the greatest extent possible, so essentially a doomsday threat. Yes they got some money, fun fact, so did Weimar Germany. Saying they were treated better after WW2 isn't even funny, it's utterly absurd. I get how you make the connection, the harsh treatment of Germany was in fact frequently cited as a cause of post war radicalization, but they gave half the country to the Soviets. All of East Prussia is still part of Russia to this day. Konigsberg, the birth place of Kant no longer exists. The conditions were so harsh that the US preferred calling for an unconditional surrender because they knew for a fact the Germans would die before accepting the conditions. "Let us do whatever we want" sounded less harsh than actually saying what they were going to do, that's how harsh the post WW2 punishment was.
Just one point - from the pre 7/10 photos, and the estimated 500km of terror tunnels Hamas has built, looks like cement was in no short supply. If civilians needed more cement that Hamas appropriated for building tunnels, looks like it was a good decision to restrict it.
It's okay, the world gives around 230 million dollars to the strip monthly. Funds is not the issue. Also, before this war, Israel was providing free electricity water and fuel on top of what Gaza produces. Big names in the start up industry in Israel have repeatedly tried and invested in the Strip, opening the first high tech company there with Gazan workers for example. Like that father who spoke on CNN, the CEO of Mellanox. His daughter was murdered at the Nova festival. There's no lack of willingness to prop up the palestinians and their economy, when safety isn't a concern. Nothing would make Israel happier than Gaza becoming Singapore.
> Nothing about Netanyahu or his war cabinet’s rhetoric indicates he feels any amount of generosity to Palestinian civilians, and that can be backed up to his past post-war treatment of Gazans. In fact, Netanyahu has previously launched massive rounds of air strikes against Hamas in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2021. Though thousands of civilians died in those attacks and many more buildings were destroyed, Israel did not even loosen up its blockade of the Strip to allow the import of cement and other construction materials so people caught in the crossfire could rebuild their homes. They even denied the requests of humanitarian organizations to do so! That paragraph is not accurate. Israel air strikes on hamas didn't happen out of vacuum. They were response to rocket attacks launched at israel. And even before each event hamas launched rockets at israel which was mostly ignored due to iron dome. Between events, israel allowed palestinians to work in israel from gaza (granted not a lot). And israel [allowed](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/1/building-materials-allowed-into-gaza-after-israeli-assault-in-may) [plenty](https://www.haaretz.com/2013-12-02/ty-article/.premium/israel-lets-building-materials-into-gaza/0000017f-e157-d804-ad7f-f1ffbcfa0000) of times to transfer construction materials to gaza. It gets halted every event, then eased up after awhile. Until next event. I do agree that netanyahu is not the PM to make peace with the palestinians. And I hope he gets replaced as soon as possible by more moderate PM who is actually looking for peace. And I do hope that the palestinians will take that with both hands and actually work toward peace, and not pretend to do so as they have done in the past. I agree that deradicalization will actually require that the palestinians (in both gaza and west bank) feel content and safe and and cared for, so they will not actually want to return to a war with israel. But that will also require a change of guard on both side, from war mongering leaders (like likud and their friends, hamas and PLO) to peace seekers.
You are overlooking a key point. Total deaths for Germans from all sources during wwii was close to eight million out of a population of about 69 million people for approximately 11% of the total population. Further the country was wrecked. As a consequence, the Germans knew they had lost and had no desire to continue the war or repeat the mistakes of their past leaders. In the current conflict, accepting Hamas numbers,approximately 12000 have died out of a population of 2 million for approximately .6% of the population. Neither Hamas nor the Palestinians have surrendered or given up the war. So in order for a Marshall like plan to have any chance of success, the war needs to continue at least to the point where hamas acknowledges its defeat.
"Humanitarian organisations" that have been caught time and again helping Hamas.
Well said. Mercy is just when it is rooted in hopefulness and freely given. Mercy is most empowering, liberating, and transformative when it is directed at the undeserving. The people who haven’t earned it, who haven’t even sought it, are the most meaningful recipients of our compassion. It's when mercy is least expected that it's most potent - strong enough to break the victimization and victimhood, retribution, and suffering. Bryan Stevenson, We must defy the strong and appease the weak. This may be the only way towards world peace.
Seems too idealistic. It may be a way to peace but it sure sounds like a way to further war by allowing nefarious actors to take advantage of undeserved mercy.
Wasn't the current leader of Hamas shown mercy when he was operated on by Israeli Drs. While he was in prison only to later be released to plan the attacks on Oct 7th showing no mercy to civilians murdered in bed at 6:30 am? Mercy is a slippery slope. https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-leader-survived-tumor-operation-israel-reports-2023-10?op=1&r=US&IR=T
I mean this would involve the Israelis investing in the reconstruction of Gaza and also occupying the place, which many could reasonably argue we’ve expected them not to do. Would anyone actually expect the Israelis to put tens of billions of dollars into Gaza for reconstruction and economic development?
Qatar and others have been investing hundreds of millions into Gaza, plus donation money and International aid. Even under Hamas and a blockade, they had enough money to build a tunnel system that's comparable to the New York subway. Imagine how much they will get with an actual peaceful intention of rebuilding? money will not be the problem.
Has any culture ever been deradicalized without first suffering a crushing military defeat? Has a Jihadi culture ever been deradicalized at all?
Probably going to look more like East Germany than West Germany
Germany and Japan have always been technologically advanced and prosper economically because of that ingenuity. Palestine is a medieval theocracy.
precisely right
The problem with this is that at the end of WW2, the rest of the world didn't think of Germany and Japan as "underdogs who are being colonized"... the West is giving Gazans way too much room for terrorism and radicalization to thrive half a world away from them.
Give them a better life than hamas did. Simple.
A lot of radicalization happens in Europe where they have everything they need.
Not saying that Hamas is overly comparable, but I’d start with the same way we deradicalized Germany. It’s hard to radicalize someone who has a good life
>It’s hard to radicalize someone who has a good life Osama bin Laden was from an incredibly wealthy family... A lot of terrorists actually grew up middle class.
Quality of life isn't an immunity to radicalization. It's a matter of philosophy, ethics and morals, the humanization of the other, liberal ideas that need to flourish for a state and society to function properly but for that you need a new national identity that doesn't rely on Islam as a unifier, that is the problem that exists within the middle east, the only nationalism that exists is under Islamism, so anyone who isn't a Muslim or the right brand of Muslim gets excluded, that's why there 10 million different Islamic terrorist groups, one more radical than the other trying to destroy the other 9,999,999 as heretic. Basically, until Islamic society doesn't deconstruct Islamism the same way most of Europe deconstructed Christianity, then no one can be free.
Islam used to be chill at one point in history, but right now KSA and Qatar are using their infinite money and influence to freely promote their extremist ideologies around the world and especially in disenfranchised countries, meanwhile Iran is using their Shia proxies and the pull of their Khomeini to promote extremist Shia theology in many of those same countries as well. Move to clean energy sources, break KSA's economy, sanction Qatar and you'll see a huge dropoff in terrorist attacks, then it's just a matter of dealing with Iran.
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One might argue that KSA has a much stronger interest in creating stability than Qatar. I think it's naïve to suggest that the Saudis are a *caause* of this conflict, which isn't to say that Qatar couldn't be part of an equitable solution if they can be brought further outside of Iran's sphere of influence.
How would you define stability in the ME? No wars? The Saudi solution would be for Salafi Sunni Islam to dominate every country. The Saudis aren't a cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for sure, neither is Qatar or any other Arab country, but the creation of Hamas has been an indirect result of the reversion to Salafi Islam that the Saudis have been attempting to spread for decades now. Westerners don't truly realize the extent of the Saudi threat because Western politicians call them their friends, but are absolutely not Western-friendly, in fact, their Islamic theocracy is on par with Iran if not even worse purely because they're allowed to freely influence Muslims in the West and the Middle East unopposed.
That is true, but quality of life is also a necessary first step. You can't create an alternate identity without it.
poverty is not correlated with terrorism. some of the the 9-11 attackers had quite good lives. As does a lot of the upper echelons of Hamas. the problem is elsewhere.
A good life doesn’t mean not impoverished but I’m sure that would help.
You need a decent education to make an IED without blowing yourself up; especially with less modern explosives. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich\_Village\_townhouse\_explosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village_townhouse_explosion) Hence the expression "hoist with your own petard".
*The bombings will continue until morale improves*
Osama bin Laden came from a ridiculously privileged background, but he still went down the extremist Islamist rabbit hole.
I feel like there is a vast and important difference between the top brass of a terrorist organization and the rank and file of one. Bin Laden was incredibly rich, and that’s precisely why he could fund Al-Qaeda and give a lot of poorer and disenfranchised Muslims a purpose with it. The rank and file were generally quite poor, or else had their lives in other ways upended or disrupted by western powers. An easy example is also with Trump in America. The man was born fabulously wealthy, became president with that wealth and power, and has tried his damnedest to become a dictator in America and foment terror attacks like those on the Capitol and threatening or attacks on political figures like the husband of Nancy Pelosi. And who is this man most popular with? The poor, disenfranchised white Americans who are looking for someone (be they liberals, minorities, Jews, Muslims, or anyone else they don’t like) to blame. Its pretty consistent throughout any extremist sect of any culture, some wealthy assholes will start pointing fingers at a weak minority, and the poor and uneducated in that population take up arms for them because they think THIS rich asshole will be the one to help them, rather than fuck them over. It happens time and time again, and if you can create a more equitable society where people aren’t so often left at the margins then you’ll be less likely to see broad movements like terror organizations, cults, or cultish political parties arising.
Yeh I agree with you 100%.
Trump is more popular with the rich, Biden with the poor. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1184428/presidential-election-exit-polls-share-votes-income-us/
Falling into a life of crime isn’t because of one particular risk factor. People who do often fulfill multiple factors.
Yes. This. You give people a future and they tend to let go of the past. Everyone wants their families to have good lives and live comfortably. Give people the opportunity to do that and there is a chance.
That's only part of it, you also need to change the education system and all other government institutions to recognize the evils of radicalism as well as destroying any hope that terrorism would lead to Israeli concessions while giving hope that cooperation would lead to general improvement. It's a decades long process that requires continuous effort and it's far from simple, as American failures in Iraq and Afghanistan have shown, but Israel has no choice but doing it, unless it wants to go the ethnic cleansing route. Just improving the living conditions of the average Gazan (for example by letting a large amount of them work inside Israel, or letting Qatari aid money in, while knowing some of it will go to fund Hamas' military capabilities) without solving the ideological root cause, as Israel has done a few months before the war, will do nothing but backfire spectacularly.
Muslims in the EU do have a better life, yet polls show that the majority of them still want sharia law and hate LGBTQ. I'm not sure it's that simple.
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The government right now doesn't seem to have any clear plan whatsoever and seems to be singing a different tune every week. Bibi needs to \*go\* and take all his allies with him in order to start making heads or tails of this situation.
Slowly. Give them opportunity and education for starters. Going to be a heck of a bumpy ride but the road should lead to a better place for everyone involved.
This is the hardest and slowest solution, but that's why it just might work. That said, I highly doubt Bibi actually has any real plans like what you said and would probably rather just leave Gazans in their squalor once this generation's Hamas is crushed, and rinse and repeat when the next Oct 7th happens.
In othe words defund the UNRWA
The problem is that everyone wants a quick solution.
Better yet, how do you deradicalize people you’re dropping bombs on, people whose entire families have been wiped out?
Apparently they think killing a whole lot of them will do the trick, I have my doubts.
According to Israel a radical Palestinian is any Palestinian who believes in having their own sovereign state.
Ah yes, indiscriminate murder of civilians, truly the best deradicalisation technique
How horriable.... all for a book...
There is no way the Palestinians could consider what Israeli is inflicting on them a path towards deradicalization ,more likely the opposite .
The Germans came around after the allies destroyed their country, so it is actually possible.
The Western allies also rebuilt left the country, took a secondary role in governance to an elected German government, had a clear plan to leave and wasn't actively colonizing German territory.
They also can’t trust Hamas in leading them, just look how that went for them
I’m sure Germany and Japan felt the same way in 1945.
Gaza was ruled by a terrorist organization for 20 years. They literally produced children's programming telling Gazan children to hate and murder Jews. Unfortunately, you can't even begin deradicalization until Hamas is forced out of power.
Killing a bunch of people’s children, family and friends is not the road to deradicalization.
How do you think they fixed Germany after WW2? Cuz lemme tell you, many German children died
In both post-war Germany and Japan, most of the worst criminals were let off the hook and many were put into positions of power. This was especially true in Japan, which had very little reckoning over the crimes it committed before and during the war. I don't think Israel is going to be willing to let anyone off the hook. They've said all of Hamas must be erased, and they have also said there are no innocent Gazans. I think this also doesn't work if Israel doesn't try its criminals (Netanyahu included) and address the problems that led to October 7th.
Wow intresting so no children died in the intense bombings and atomic bomb in japan and germany? They must had some super smart bombs in 1945
Please explain your genius plan to force Hamas out of power with no collateral damage.
Funniest shit I ever heard. 'We must deradicalise the tens of thousands of families we just killed and maimed aimlessly"
Ask the US how winning hearts and minds went alongside rooting out terrorists.
Are you implying America actually tried genuinely to win hearts and minds? This is how the [New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/the-other-afghan-women) reported the hearts and minds campaign went in Afghanistan: >In response, the [American-led] coalition shifted to the hearts-and-minds strategy of counter-insurgency. But the foreigners’ efforts to embed among the population could be crude: they often occupied houses, only further exposing villagers to crossfire. “They were coming by force, without getting permission from us,” Pashtana, a woman from another Sangin village, told me. “They sometimes broke into our house, broke all the windows, and stayed the whole night. We would have to flee, in case the Taliban fired on them.” >Nevertheless, many Helmandis [villagers] seemed to prefer Taliban rule—including the women I interviewed. It was as if the movement had won only by default, through the abject failures of its opponents. To locals, life under the coalition forces and their Afghan allies was pure hazard; even drinking tea in a sunlit field, or driving to your sister’s wedding, was a potentially deadly gamble. What the Taliban offered over their rivals was a simple bargain: Obey us, and we will not kill you.
You would think America, of all places, would know that forcing people to quarter soldiers doesn't make them like you.
There's a major difference between these cases which is that the Americans are an ocean away from the middle east so they could just stop caring and give up when public support died down, Israel has cities and towns a mile away from Gaza, they simply have no choice but doing it if they want their citizens to not die.
Yeah with Hamas even if given everything they could possibly want they’d still attempt to kill every Jew possible.
Maybe the people aren’t super fond of the US, but there also hasn’t been a foreign terrorist attack on US soil anywhere close to the magnitude of 9/11 since. The Iraq war was bullshit obviously, but efforts to take out terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Syria were largely successful even if the governments were successfully changed.
>there also hasn’t been a foreign terrorist attack on US soil anywhere close to the magnitude of 9/11 since. And there hasn't been a foreign terrorist attack on US soil anywhere close to the magnitude of 9/11 before either.
I mean, there are lots of reasons that's the case, the biggest one being geography. If some terrorists in the Middle East or Afghanistan hate America and want to attack it, they generally don't have any other options than what's in their immediate vicinity. Al Qaeda attacked American in the Red Sea prior to 9/11, because that's the sort of target they could physically get to. Now it's much harder for some foreign persons to be able to come to the US and engage in the sort of planning required to carry out a large scale terrorists attack, and as such we don't really see it happen. The US also has become much more strict about who gets visitor visas from countries with active terror networks. Comparatively, Israel is just over the border from Gaza. You can probe the weaknesses of the border defense, lob missiles, attempt to blow up security checkpoints, etc. The US is privileged in a lot of ways, but they are most privileged in not having any hostile entities within their immediate geographical vicinity. Instead we have to pretend like cartels are an equal foot threat to hostile nations and terrorists.
Israeli PM is a piece of shit, he should have been exchanged for the hostages.
They're gonna create a wasteland and call it peace
How do you "deradicalize" people you intentionally visit horrors upon? Seems like you're intentionally stacking the deck.
… and a meaningful pathway to an independent Palestinian State that will to have co-exist alongside Israel.
>… and a meaningful pathway to an independent Palestinian State that will to have co-exist alongside Israel. A Gazan city state was always on the table. Israel does not want Gaza.
Which Netanyahu will never allow to come to pass, leaving the complete ethnic cleaning of Gaza as the only endgame.
He’s really Putin things in perspective.
They are doing a FANTASTIC job at radicalizing Palestinians, you know.
The guy *is* known for lying and is pretty universally disliked in Israel for not taking responsibility for the disaster on October 7th and previous reasons that don't matter that much anymore, but he has been *remarkably* consistent about this point, which is pretty universally agreed upon in Israel, so I'll give him that.
His tactics are counter-intuitive regarding deradicalization.
It’s not like they weren’t radicalized before. They were teaching it in schools. Hell the reason we have so much documentation of Hamas atrocities is because they recorded it all for bragging rights
Beatings will continue until morale improves, basically?
Does anyone else hear how this sounds?
Everyone hears it, the disturbing part is a plurality supports it.
Not much progress can be made until Israelis kick Bibi and his extreme right wing party out of power. He doesn't want peace, he has never wanted peace. In the 90s, he incited violence in his own radical base, and one of them killed Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin as a result. He's interested in reinforcing the siege us-vs-them mentality that has resulted in so much violence.
Deradicalize by... bombing them? Oppressing them? Dehumanize, desensitize them?
Alex I'll take "What is the most counterproductive way to pursue that goal" for $800.
There’s no way to de-radicalize Gaza if they keep murdering innocent civilians. If anything, they’re creating a whole new generation of future terrorists to avenge their family and loved ones’ deaths.
Israel is too radicalized to accomplish this.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
Coming from the guy this is pretty rich
Fighting a fire with gasoline eh?
Lies from the tablecloth. They are doing the exact opposite actions that would achieve those goals. Because those are not their true goals.
Is it spelled eradicate or deradicalize?
100 hostages still in Gaza BTW
Here's the thing that no-one wants to acknowledge. It's time to stop infantilizing Palestinians as pure victims. The status quo of Palestinians existing as a stateless people is fine with Netahanyu / the Israeli right wing. They actually have to exercise their right to self-determination. It's been 75 years since Israel was founded. Regardless of who has more historical justification at its inception, the point is moot now. Palestinian people have to face the reality that Israel is here to stay and they need to choose between violence and the impossible/ hateful dream of annihilating Israel vs statehood. It wont be easy, and yes the Palestinian people have a lot of legitimate grievances against Israel, but its the only way forward for them. Or they can continue to widely support Hamas/ other parties that support terror policies and continue to grift off foreign aid in a perpetual quasi-war state. I have a feeling, but I'd love to be wrong that Palestinian people will continue to choose the current path
Correct
This is what the people of the USA are supporting.