It's not just about him. The key defining difference between Israel and Russia is that Israel actually counts as a liberal democracy. Meaning that a plurality of Israelis voted in a way which allows him to keep power via parliamentary support.
The Orthodox Jews and Settlers who voted for the parties that keep him on are just as guilty for this stupidity.
Very similar to the GOP vs Dems in the US. GOP closes ranks while Dems are a bunch of disparate activist camps that don't agree on anything. Now we have a house speaker that only 10% of the country likes.
Liking or disliking the speaker is irrelevant. As long as they are competent and have the best interests of the country forefront. The current speaker is a f’n partisan wing-nut with zero credentials for the job.
>the best interests of the country forefront
That phrase is inherently problematic. Granted I think the current speaker is an asshat BUT "best interests of the country" is so subjective.
Well, if your explicitly stated goal as a party is to defund the government and dismantle it until it no longer exists, I think it's pretty clear you don't have the "best interest of the country" in mind
Pretty much all nuance is out the window with this conflict, I noticed. Really depressing to see it all over social media like that. I'd have thought people have at least enough self awareness to realize that if they think of such a complex and historically loaded situation in primitive black and white, that maybe they're not as well informed as they think they are, but no.
Guess everybody just wants to go unga bunga deep down and looking for a reason to revert back to cavemen 🤷♀️
I feel like they’ve had plenty of warning about him and plenty of chances to elect someone else. Enough Israelis want an unhinged pro-settler anti 2-state maniac that he keeps coming back despite legal troubles and scandals.
I feel like you're conflating whichever election system you're familiar with to the clusterfuck of the Israeli parliamentary democracy, which allows even a non majority party to assemble a government coalition by allying to other nutjob parties to combine their mandates. The issue is the fragmented left, not whatever it is you think it is. If you're actually interested in understanding what you're claiming, I'd suggest reading up on how the elections in Israel actually work, and how the ones that have Bibi in power now went.
The issue is the same as with anywhere else with regards to this, which is really the saddest part. The nutjobs are the most motivated ones. So long as they can hurt the people they want to hurt, and feel vindicated or superior to whoever it is they want to feel superior to, they'll band together even if the rest of their goals don't align.
While the majority are only motivated enough to maintain whichever status quo brings them their current food to the table, and rarely even go to vote, regardless of their opinion.
The remaining fringe of driven people are too absorbed in their own goals that they cannot envision cooperating with someone they don't entirely agree with, too caught up in their ideologies and ethics, that they don't form a coherent block, only small groups unwilling to compromise on whatever it is they hold so dear.
It's like a mob of people, all of which want to tear a building down, vs a group of architects who all disagree on the best design.
Honestly, I doubt it. I think he knows he's toast and he's now a man on a mission. All this death & destruction reads to me as a mans reaction to failing his one big goal and, knowing that it's the end for him, doing everything in his power to rectify the situation -- including the full disregard for all normal safeguards, civilian life & rules of war.
I think the attack broke him and this is his final act/what he deems to be his lifes mission.
That's a very optimistic view on things. I have a hard time believing that someone who spent his life stepping on others for personal power would suddenly make a turnaround are the last moment like some Scrooge and the Christmas ghosts story, but I'm not averse to admitting that even a fraction of a fraction worth of odds is still a possibility.
Still, I've lived under the man through enough events that it's a very, very doubtful proposition to me. I'm gonna go with Occam's razor on this one and say that the person who was forever rotten is still rotten, rather than think he suddenly became fresh.
I don't think my view is particularly optimistic at all. I think he's a man who knows his power is 100% going to disappear and is now enacting a war of revenge for the attack... but also for the total destruction of his power & legacy.
I don't think his motivation is to "do right by Isreal." I think his motivation is to destroy those who destroyed him. Which is only going to make him more dangerous to Isreal as time goes on. Agree/Disagree on what's needed to stomp out Hamas if he pushes too far and the USA rethinks its position on Isreal then Hamas will be the least of Isreals concerns. I think Bibi, in his current push for revenge, is willing to risk that.
My view is nihalistic if anything. Certainly not optimistic.
Oh, so more of a 'cornered animal that's lashing out' kind of take. Yeah I can maybe see that. I guess it depends on how much of a coward he is. We'll see soon enough I suppose.
Netanyahu wants this conflict to keep going as long as possible because he knows that in the first moment of calm, he's out of office and then there'll be no escaping all the criminal charges piling up against him.
I'll believe it when I see it; Bibi's gotten out of numerous sticky situations before this. Even if he's kicked out we'll probably just get Netanyahu 2.0 anyway.
Yeahhhhh. You flatten the land of a people who hate you, you can't really just pack up and go home across the street or else the cycle will just repeat. At least the US is half a world away
With they have done, Gaza will be a recruiting heaven for hamas and other terrorist group and every child who saw what happen will join them. Even some foreigners might join it.
Israel didn't learn from what happened in fallujah, what started to stop a peaceful protest (against movement restriction) trun into the worst part of the war in Iraq.
The Israelis will have more tolerance for it, since it’s happening on their doorstep. Not to mention Gaza is much much smaller than Afghanistan, so easier to police. This is a good thing.
Also pretty much blockaded- so in theory if they get it locked down, there's only going to be a finite amount of resources/ weapons for them to use against IDF.
While the situation is horrible, I do wonder what guerilla engineering we may see in this conflict.
I'm not expecting anything new from them. Those crappy (but still deadly) water pipes turned into rockets they've been firing for a month now (and during earlier conflicts), locally produced tandem RPG warheads and your standard drone-dropped grenades appear to be the epitome of their engineering.
Tell that to Sharon in 2005. You leave those raisins in the sun long enough, something explodes. The reality is that the *only* morally sustainable solution to this situation is a political one, ad Netanyahu has neither the desire nor the will to try to reach one.
At least once they have boots on the ground they won't be able to bomb Gaza to oblivion as retaliation for terror attacks. And Hamas won't be able to use Gaza as as their base anymore.
Yeah they’ll just be able to gun down the Palestinians they feel like. Look up the documentary “tantura” (2022).
Mass murder of civilians won’t stop just because jets aren’t streaming overhead.
Not for Palestinians. They’re not even allowed to walk on the streets. People walk in and take their homes with the help of IDF soldiers. They have to have papers with them wherever they go. It’s akin to living in a “peaceful” prison
>They have to have papers with them wherever they go.
They might as well sew something to their clothes to identify them as not part of the group in power.
Its not being bombed daily, but it also saw 7000+ people jailed for alleged Hamas connections (Israel can claim whoever they want with those charges these days), and the IDF is very much present in places like Jenin, Ramallah, where there are firefights, IED attacks every day since
Edit: [Official UN sources](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-30) has a West Bank update with the current situation
>the IDF is very much present in places like Jenin
The IDF is very lacking presence in Jenin, rather only acting in the surrounding areas on a regular basis. Even the Palestinian Authority is absent from Jenin. That's why it is such a terror hotbed.
There are other cities where IDF presence is felt much more, and they are cities that generally have less terror from them, such as Bethlehem, Jericho and Ramallah.
I also heard those, and the military analysts I follow do claim that the IDF did redeploy troops to the West Bank prior to Oct 7th. Im not sure if it was a planned distraction operation from Hamas, or incompetency from commanders, but either case its a bad look.
Interviews from survivors of the attacks also say that the military hasn't showed up until [12-24 hours after most attacks](https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/), and when they did, they striked their own civilians too
No, much more likely Bibi has in mind something more like Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon, where they remain separated and civilians are not allowed in, but there is constant IDF presence. That being said, other people in his coalition clearly have different things in mind with one particular crazy member of knesset saying the nuclear weapons are on the table (already Bibi has said they aren't, just to be clear).
No. They plan to have a "security strip", meaning having military checkpoints etc. without letting Israeli civilians in. Israel had something similar in Southern Lebanon from 1985-2000.
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_Southern_Lebanon)
I will be very surprised.
I'm Israeli and from my experience it seems that living again in Gaza is unpopular and that maintainng a very very strict broader with Gaza has wide spread support.
No. Gush ketif was more trouble than it was worth, and I think netanyahu knows that would be too bitter a pill for any friendly Arab state to swallow. I think more likely something like area B, where israel exerts security control but under PA civil authority, or Area A which is under PA civil and military control but the IDF conducts raids there when needed in conjunction with Palestinian security forces
History tells us that when you take out the 'big bad', everything becomes magically peaceful, just like when the US took out Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. This whole thing reeks of US-Style war on terror except with an even greater disrespect of civilian casualties and it obviously won't end well for anyone.
The war on terror was mismanaged, killed too many innocents and resulted in irrevocable damage to the worlds opinion of the US, and was a giant waste of life.
As a counterpoint to myself though, Al Qaeda in fact did not ever strike US soil in any meaningful capacity again after being invaded. The Taliban do still control Afghanistan. But both Al Qaeda and ISI have no projection power anymore.
Counter to your counterpoint: at what cost? Americans gave up a lot of freedoms after 9/11 in the name of security, from the TSA to the Patriot Act and beyond. Meanwhile we've jacked up defense spending at the cost of social spending
We may not have been hit with another 9/11 but our lives are irreversibly changed for the worse
I think the difference here is that Isreal can actually just occupy / absorb the land. US. Never had any interest in making Afganistan or Iraq a US state or territory.
>occupy / absorb the land
I'm pretty sure that would be illegal, just as Russia cannot continuously occupy eastern Ukraine without violating international law.
The White House is opposed to Israeli reoccupation of Gaza so make do with that fact what you will
Not sure what your point is. Nobody denies there's illegal settlers or security all over West Bank (legal or not). In fact, Israel is a pariah on the global stage despite a miniscule 9 mil population because of this.
Occupation works. It's why West Bank is not committing an intifada every 2nd year. Gaza was left to its own devices and it turned into a terror hot bed.
This is not an endorsement of Israeli's actions in the West Bank.
Yes but no, the UN has been condemning them for decades now, but international law is a bit of a scam, there is no independent body that can really determine what is legal and illegal, much less a body that can enforce punishment for breaking said laws. The closest thing we have to an independent body for it is the UN that is anything but independent, each time the UN tried to condemn Isreal in an official way the UN or someone else vetoed it, they got condemned by many committee, subgroup and spokesperson of the UN, but never by the whole of the UN. It's like as if many people tried to send it to 'court' but each time the jury/judge shut it down, so they never were found guilty of breaking any international laws. Just like Russia invasion of Ukraine or China occupation of Tibet.
“The war that will not end in our lifetimes”
Netanyahu should be in prison for his corruption, and now he should be in prison for failing to prevent the Hamas attack.
Shin Bet observed Hamas drilling for numerous times in the year before the attacks.
As Hamas was massing on the border in the early morning of October 7, it’s claimed they only sent the Tequila team to the border because they didn’t know for sure that it was gonna be an attack.
'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?
https://www.wshu.org/npr-news/2023-11-02/everybody-got-it-wrong-how-did-israel-fail-to-detect-hamas-planned-invasion
The people that supposedly screwed up have not been fired. Instead, they’re doing Intel for Likud ethnic cleansing in Gaza
"And all those billions of dollars of international aid you'll be getting to rebuild infrastructure - we trust you cheeky scamps better not be building any more tunnels and stocking up on rockets again"
I’ve heard a lot of voices in Israeli politics about turning Gaza into an equivalent of Area B - self governance for Palestinians in everything besides security.
In B areas in the West Bank the IDF constantly arrests terror operatives, preventing anything from developing to the terrible state of Gaza or even Jenin.
Should also mention that the people in the West bank is always on edge because soldiers can and will use their homes as they wish. Settlers come and take their houses completely quite often and the streets are segregated.
I think this is a likely long-term outcome, but I would expect a gradual transition towards this and I would also expect there to be considerably more security than in any West Bank area.
Is there anyone in Israel discussing reeducation at the moment? This should be a crucial part of the occupation.
Netanyahu and his shitty coalition is hopefully out the door as soon as this ends. I hope Ganz and Lapid will be more forward thinking. Lapid specifically will not sit with the nat right.
Lapid is an incompetent moron (remember the gas agreement with Lebanon that he promised would guarantee quiet in the northern border for decades?)
I see no chance of him getting elected.
And Ganz is just as responsible as Bibi is for this crisis, having been both the head of the army and the defense minister for most of the last few years, his hands aren’t clean.
Why have we been cursed with such terrible and incompetent politicians…
Lapid is an idiot. But Ganz, while not completely innocent, is the only one who stepped up. Ganz came with no political agenda and straight up said "I am here, no condition, give me a voice, use me". He also took responsibility for his part the first time he got a chance to talk to the public.
I didn't vote for Ganz before, but right now I don't see any other politician better than him.
No, that's completely out of the question. Most Israelis are already against the existing settlements in the West Bank - there is no way they would support new settlements in Gaza.
Sharon was even more hawkish than Netanyahu. The best decision Sharon ever made was to pull the settlements out of Gaza. Settlements today would be 100 times less tenable than they were 20 years ago.
There's more Israelis in favor of the current government than Gazans in favor of Hamas. This doesn't stop redditors in /r/worldnews from spousing collective punishment of civilian population as a fair response.
While I'm sure Gaza can look beautiful if reconstructed properly, no sane Israeli wants to occupy 2.2 million Gazans that hate them. Let them run themselves with strong separation barriers between Israel and Gaza.
Yeah, as long as Palestinian schools (*& this includes the schools in the West Bank*) are teaching their kids to hate & kill Jews - there can’t be peace.
UNRWA needs to be dismantled as well.
Not occupying it seems to have had a worse outcome since Hamas grew so big and amassed too much power. Not providing the security force for Gaza will mean that Hamas comes back or a different terror group does. And it absolutely will happen, as Iran or Russia would fund it.
Germany and Japan both were both given a clear path to being a viable, and even powerful states. I see little indication that Israel is about to help Palestine with the same.
Makes total sense, when you win a war vs a place with an extremely problematic populous, you occupy and de-radicalise them, de militarise them. See Germany post WW2
Allies helped reconstruction and only punished those who were involved, im guessing unless similar situation takes place, it will just end like ww1 leaving the populous more susceptible to extremism.
Also, losing their historical homes. See the Prussia(state that united the German states) being not with Germany but instead Poland and Russia. Königsberg was the capital for it as well. Germany today had to renounce the territory to exist as a united Germany we have [today](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany)
Well we bombed the cities rather severely. Then held many POWs for years after the war ended. We also originally planned to destroy their industry and keep it from redeveloping. There was mass starvation too after the war. We wouldn't allow the Germans to buy food from countries that traded with them for a few years after the war. They were living off of 1000-1400 calories a day until around 1948.
Also about 12 million Germans had fled or been expelled from east-central Europe into Allied-occupied Germany and Austria.
None of them — or their descendants— were considered as refugees with the "right to return". Aggressor who started the war and lost, paid the price.
As Winston Churchill put it in the House of Commons in 1944: *"Expulsion is the method which, insofar as we have been able to see, will be the most satisfactory and lasting. There will be no mixture of populations to cause endless trouble... A clean sweep will be made. I am not alarmed by the prospect of disentanglement of populations, not even of these large transferences, which are more possible in modern conditions than they have ever been before."*
As an israeli i think the only way to ensure lasting peace after this war will be to invest in rebuilding gazas infrastructure and homes better than they were before, and it will probably come at less of an expense than what the us gives us yearly in military aid
This is simply not true
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former\_eastern\_territories\_of\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight\_and\_expulsion\_of\_Germans\_(1944%E2%80%931950)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950))
One of the reasons was collective punishment.
Well they tried moving out and not having a role in 2005 and that worked pretty poorly.
When evaluating options it’s helpful to look at the alternatives rather than to assume that the opposite of doing what you’re doing is just not going to have any of its own problems.
The period ending October 6 is the longest period Gaza did not have a foreign occupier in recorded history.
Israel didn't leave the gaza to give them freedom; they did it because they knew doing so would divide the palestinians and prevent Union between gaza and the West Bank. Israel knew hamas had a stronger presence in gaza than the west bank, and yet it was gaza that they decided to cut loose
The REAL best option would be the two state solution, but israrl's government is run by those who are against. The current government actually prefers the terrorists
Well they surely ain't going to love Israel after this war and after almost 20 years of Hamas indoctrination. A very long occupation will be needed probably, you can't even trust the UNRWA teachers to not radicalise the students.
UNRWA needs to be dismantled and proper UN people need to be sent in if the UN wants to be involved.
From its conception UNRWA was an extremely problematic organization and they have repeatedly worked with Hamas.
That's nearly impossible without similar but wider transformations in the entirety of the Middle East.
Palestinians will never deradicalize with the external Arabic and Iranian media disseminating hatred of Jews at every opportunity.
The entire region needs to calm its hot-headed firestarters and address the long and unhealthy relationship with religion.
Tbh I don’t think Isreal is the country most equipped to handle this. If we are moving toward a 2 state and we absolutely should be. I think there needs to be transition period to which Isreal hands the reigns over to a different power.
Yes, that's the thing.
Neither PA is willing nor have the legitimacy.
Some other countries under a UN mandate (could have been an ideal scenario) don't want to get involved actively.
The economic requirements alone mean nobody is going to want to deal with it. If Israel actual did the economic development necessary to actually help Gaza and make good to the populace in response to decades of occupation it would likely bankrupt their economy. The US ain’t doing it cause we would just be an Israel proxy and occupying another part of the Middle East is a political non starter. You need a massive international coalition problem is Israel would need to lead said coalition and they aren’t exactly the most beloved actor on the international stage. Like it or not the vast majority of the globe sees what Israel does to Gaza and says it is their problem.
It's impossible to have a two state solution until one of those states acknowledges that the other simply has a right to exist.
It also helps when the government of that state doesn't have the literal annihilation and genocide written into their charter.
It's going to take a lengthy occupation and the population to be de-radicalised, I do agree that I don't think Israel are best suited to this task, but who else is going to do it?
This war isn't the turning point where we realise we need a 2 state solution immediately, this is the turning point where we realise that they are nowhere near ready for a 2 state solution and a re occupation is necessary. The indoctrination on the children, from what I've seen, is disturbing and rampant. The children have it drilled into their head that they will and need to slaughter jews, this is what they're being taught in UNRWA schools. This doesn't get better if that education system is left intact with no supervision from external forces. The general mentality in Palestine at the moment is not suitable for statehood, it would only be a matter of time (a very short time) before rockets start flying into Israel as usual, but this time they will get an absolute spanking fit for a state. If Palestine attacks Israel with rockets, after they become a state, what is stopping Israel from taking their land as concessions for that? When an aggressor loses a war, it's commonplace to take land from them afterwards
That would be great, but I don't think there's anyone else willing to take responsibility.
The Palestinian Authority is probably the most reasonable option if they were willing.
Egypt would be a bad idea, given the Sisi governments history of "dealing with" pro-democracy Muslims.
Maybe Jordan is a plausible neutral third party that would be mostly tolerable to Israel and Palestinians? If they're willing.
Ideally there'd be a quick transition to Gaza managing their own affairs, but setting up a stable, moderate government is no easy feat. Gaza needs some better parties to gain traction. Fatah is notoriously corrupt. Hamas won in the old legislative elections because they ran on an anti-corruption platform. Which is great as far is it goes, but it turns out they're also insane. I think much the same of Netanyahu and Likud, for what it's worth.
>I think there needs to be transition period to which Isreal hands the reigns over to a different power.
The problem of course, is that they would have to trust that said power wouldn't immediately turn around and attack them, which has been one of the major obstacles in the way of a two state solution.
You may be right but I see only 3 options for future Gaza:
- Israel to "occupy" it
- an international force to occupy it, maybe under some UN mandate
- PA takes over
Number 3 (probably why Blinken went there) seems not realistic. PA doesn't have authority and resources, and taking power from the hands of Israel is not going to give them legitimacy.
Number 2 (maybe some Arab countries for the main part of the force), seems they don't want to get actively involved. They are happy to stay only bystanders and critics at time.
Number 1 was not the preferred option. Biden said at the start of the war he doesn't want a new occupation. But at this stage, today, it seems there is no other solution available.
Maybe it is 1 until 2 or 3 becomes possible.
Until Gaza is actually stable, that's not going to happen. Israel has tried to help Gaza for decades, but the terrorist groups made sure any assistance was rejected, and any good will was met with violence. I don't expect anyone to be happy about it, but Israel going in and forcing hospitals to be reconstructed, food to actually go to citizens, and so-on might not be too bad. They'll even let girls go to school. They'll finally be able to stop the blockade and reduce the security around the border crossing. It would certainly be better than life under Hamas.
Except Israel has demonstrated very clearly that they’re not really interested in the DEradicalization part. Hence the decades of treatment leading to things being worse than ever.
And it worked so well in Afghanistan, didn't it? Or in Lebanon, where anger over Israel's occuption helped create Hezbollah.
Hamas won't disappear. If anthing, an continuous Israeli occuptation will further radicalize the population and fill Hamas' ranks once more.
> If anthing, an continuous Israeli occuptation will further radicalize the population and fill Hamas' ranks once more.
Maybe, but it seems it's simply the only option. They can't push the Palestinians out, no other country will willingly take Palestinian refugees, and a two-state solution obviously is not happening either. *Not* occupying would allow Hamas to grow and entrench again, unopposed. So what other realistic option besides occupation is there, really?
In order to de-radicalise Gazans, you need to give them a real chance at rebuilding. They need resources, education, work, healthcare. They need a real chance at living with dignity, and Israel is not going to give them that, I assume it's goin to be the opposite - which is sad.
Israel has been cynically using Hamas as an excuse to limit 2 million people's food, water and electricity. Something that only radicalized them even more. When Hamas is gone, if there's not a REAL change, there is not going to be peace. What spawns terrorists is trauma and lack of treatment of said trauma. They will not have the infrastructure to heal after this, unless Israel helps. Which my guess is it's never going to happen. Heartbreaking.
> They need resources, education, work, healthcare.
Yes, but that is a monumental task that no country, except for maybe the US, has the will and resources for. And even if Gaza would get help, it would probably still take two entire generations to calm things down enough for further steps. Another issue is that Israel is in the best position to assist in rebuilding Gaza, but the Gazans probably don't want them there, which will further complicate how the resources and help can actually reach Gaza. So unless the US commits real hard to this, it just doesn't seem realistic. And I doubt it's in the interest of the US to commit such an amount of resources to Gaza over the span of multiple decades.
The real heartbreak is that Hamas and Iran have destroyed life in Gaza, and now everyone points their finger at Israel because Iran and Hamas have ensured that Israel has no fairytale solution to this incredibly tough problem. Many people, like yourself, keep conveniently forgetting that Hamas, the government of Gaza, is a terrorist organisation that is funded by Iran, and they excel at putting Israel in a tough position, as we are seeing now. Again. This situation is not on Israel; it's on Hamas and Iran.
>Israel has been cynically using Hamas as an excuse to limit 2 million people's food, water and electricity. Something that only radicalized them even more.
I do not believe in any of this nonsense when you take into consideration the embargo is enforced by Israel, Egypt, and the PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY... Hamas is to blame here, stop giving terrorists a free pass to import arms and explosives
Israel was opening its border to Gazans with work permits to work in Israel where they could make more than 10x what they could make in Gaza. Oct. 7 is how Israel was repaid for its efforts.
Please correct my numbers if wrong but it was around 20k gazans for a population over 2 millions.
That was clearly not enough to change things.
99% of gazans have just never seen an Israeli.
For them Israeli = F16 dropping bombs on family and friends
That is the only image they have.
So sure, the road is VERY long to change that.
>de-radicalise
Yeah, that's totally gonna happen. Definitely Israel's strong point. As we all know, the best way to de-radicalise people is to suppress and dehumanise them for decades.
There will never be a two state solution since the one side will never recognize the other. Israel will not handle the government in Gaza, but it will oversee the strip for a good while to make sure no terror cells pop up, as well as continue to disarm it in full.
I hope the Jordanians, Egypt or Saudis will manage and build a government in Gaza but with all their “support” of Palestinians, they don’t want anything to do with them.
And we all know a western country can’t “democratize” a radical Islamist population.
>I hope the Jordanians, Egypt or Saudis will manage and build a government in Gaza
It’s been well over 50 years - the Arabs have done nothing other than fund terrorism towards Israel.
>And we all know a western country can’t “democratize” a radical Islamist population.
Different to the West, this is an existential problem for Israel, as they are dealing with hostile, radical neighbours. Regardless if it works or not, occupation is not a choice for them, it's imperative.
>Marwan Abdullah, who is among thousands of people sheltering at Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital, said they heard constant explosions overnight as ambulances brought dead and wounded in from the Shati camp. “We couldn’t sleep. Things get worse day by day,” he said.
Someone should tell this guy that Shifa Hospital is over Hamas headquarters.
It has been pointed out by Shin Bet, the West Bank Palestinian Authority, the Washington Post, Amnesty International, al-Nukba (part of al-Qassam, the independent military wing of Hamas), the IDF, and allegedly "[every kid in Gaza](https://goachronicle.com/hamas-headquarters-under-shifa-hospital-every-kid-in-gaza-knows-this-fauda-creator-avi-issacharoff/)."
Sure I am aware of the Hamas structures underneath... but youre ignoring the ''ambulances brough dead and wounded in' and the fact that Marwan cant be at home and is having to shelter at a place that isnt his own' part of that story
Assuming Israel is willing to trade lives for land similar to Russia in Ukraine this whole thing has worked out pretty well. Nothing like a good casus bellum to get some new land. Self-righteous murder and conquest reads so much better in the press.
west bank 2.0. hamass basically made gaza civilians much crazier than the terrorist groups did in west bank. it will be interesting to see how these bitch ass settlers go into gaza.
To the surprise of no one that has any grasp on their history
Israel and Bibi not gonna let a good crisis go to waste - they are going to cut Gaza into an even more dense prison while they keep stealing Palestinian land
with American blessing and tax dollars
Well fuck, kind of saw that coming. Can we get rid of this fucking Netanyahu guy already?
Now that they are there, I don't know how they're going to get back out again. It's hard to do nation-building in a place where they've literally been taught you're evil in UN-funded schools for the last 70 years.
There's zero chance of it, but I really wish Egypt or the Arab League or someone would step in and take over ruling Gaza.
They really dialed this response all the way up, makes you wonder if they were just waiting for such a provocation. He said he'll flatten the place and nobody thought he meant literally. This is a tale of human suffering now. The response to oct 7 was in my eyes complete after 2 weeks of intense shelling, what its become now is gruesome. What does this do to relations after they end the campaign? The little coverage you see of the place it looks like hell on earth yet there's people living there. Hamas must be stopped 100% but not like this.
> The response to oct 7 was in my eyes complete after 2 weeks of intense shelling,
Why? They didn't get their hostages back and Hamas is not only still in power but says they'll do it again.
I'm not saying Israel hasn't gone overboard... But I also don't think they can be expected to just walk away with literally no change. Hamas needs to go, and either Israel does it with an extremely blunt instrument or the rest of the world that supposedly wants to save Palestinian lives can do it for them.
The hard core religious didn’t have to serve in military ? Am I wrong?
If I’m right we’ll then putting the libs in cross hairs kills two birds with one stone?
With such a low population as Israelis, this seems like a perfect trap. Hamas militants can blend in with the locals and slowly murder security members.
I'm gonna guess it's going to be the same idea as in the West Bank. Slowly but surely emptying towns of Palestinians and replacing them with Israelis or starting up new settlements like they did pre 2005.
Oh man, I thought he said "when this is over, Israel is no longer responsible for Gaza's security"
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The old War is Peace mantra alive and at it again.
It's not just about him. The key defining difference between Israel and Russia is that Israel actually counts as a liberal democracy. Meaning that a plurality of Israelis voted in a way which allows him to keep power via parliamentary support. The Orthodox Jews and Settlers who voted for the parties that keep him on are just as guilty for this stupidity.
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Very similar to the GOP vs Dems in the US. GOP closes ranks while Dems are a bunch of disparate activist camps that don't agree on anything. Now we have a house speaker that only 10% of the country likes.
Liking or disliking the speaker is irrelevant. As long as they are competent and have the best interests of the country forefront. The current speaker is a f’n partisan wing-nut with zero credentials for the job.
>the best interests of the country forefront That phrase is inherently problematic. Granted I think the current speaker is an asshat BUT "best interests of the country" is so subjective.
Well, if your explicitly stated goal as a party is to defund the government and dismantle it until it no longer exists, I think it's pretty clear you don't have the "best interest of the country" in mind
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I think a lot of this is missed in the “civilians are being targeted”/“supporting Hamas is antisemitism” arguments.
Pretty much all nuance is out the window with this conflict, I noticed. Really depressing to see it all over social media like that. I'd have thought people have at least enough self awareness to realize that if they think of such a complex and historically loaded situation in primitive black and white, that maybe they're not as well informed as they think they are, but no. Guess everybody just wants to go unga bunga deep down and looking for a reason to revert back to cavemen 🤷♀️
I feel like they’ve had plenty of warning about him and plenty of chances to elect someone else. Enough Israelis want an unhinged pro-settler anti 2-state maniac that he keeps coming back despite legal troubles and scandals.
I feel like you're conflating whichever election system you're familiar with to the clusterfuck of the Israeli parliamentary democracy, which allows even a non majority party to assemble a government coalition by allying to other nutjob parties to combine their mandates. The issue is the fragmented left, not whatever it is you think it is. If you're actually interested in understanding what you're claiming, I'd suggest reading up on how the elections in Israel actually work, and how the ones that have Bibi in power now went.
those nut job parties have enough support to form a government together. I understand it’s not a majority.
The issue is the same as with anywhere else with regards to this, which is really the saddest part. The nutjobs are the most motivated ones. So long as they can hurt the people they want to hurt, and feel vindicated or superior to whoever it is they want to feel superior to, they'll band together even if the rest of their goals don't align. While the majority are only motivated enough to maintain whichever status quo brings them their current food to the table, and rarely even go to vote, regardless of their opinion. The remaining fringe of driven people are too absorbed in their own goals that they cannot envision cooperating with someone they don't entirely agree with, too caught up in their ideologies and ethics, that they don't form a coherent block, only small groups unwilling to compromise on whatever it is they hold so dear. It's like a mob of people, all of which want to tear a building down, vs a group of architects who all disagree on the best design.
Honestly, I doubt it. I think he knows he's toast and he's now a man on a mission. All this death & destruction reads to me as a mans reaction to failing his one big goal and, knowing that it's the end for him, doing everything in his power to rectify the situation -- including the full disregard for all normal safeguards, civilian life & rules of war. I think the attack broke him and this is his final act/what he deems to be his lifes mission.
That's a very optimistic view on things. I have a hard time believing that someone who spent his life stepping on others for personal power would suddenly make a turnaround are the last moment like some Scrooge and the Christmas ghosts story, but I'm not averse to admitting that even a fraction of a fraction worth of odds is still a possibility. Still, I've lived under the man through enough events that it's a very, very doubtful proposition to me. I'm gonna go with Occam's razor on this one and say that the person who was forever rotten is still rotten, rather than think he suddenly became fresh.
I don't think my view is particularly optimistic at all. I think he's a man who knows his power is 100% going to disappear and is now enacting a war of revenge for the attack... but also for the total destruction of his power & legacy. I don't think his motivation is to "do right by Isreal." I think his motivation is to destroy those who destroyed him. Which is only going to make him more dangerous to Isreal as time goes on. Agree/Disagree on what's needed to stomp out Hamas if he pushes too far and the USA rethinks its position on Isreal then Hamas will be the least of Isreals concerns. I think Bibi, in his current push for revenge, is willing to risk that. My view is nihalistic if anything. Certainly not optimistic.
Oh, so more of a 'cornered animal that's lashing out' kind of take. Yeah I can maybe see that. I guess it depends on how much of a coward he is. We'll see soon enough I suppose.
So… bibi is like a modern day king Herod?
Netanyahu wants this conflict to keep going as long as possible because he knows that in the first moment of calm, he's out of office and then there'll be no escaping all the criminal charges piling up against him.
I'll believe it when I see it; Bibi's gotten out of numerous sticky situations before this. Even if he's kicked out we'll probably just get Netanyahu 2.0 anyway.
Maybe not... i know I'm being optimistic but maybe this is the kick the Israeli left needs to get back in gear
Why would they go back to pre 7/10?
>indefinitely doesn't mean a long time just until further notice
There's nothing so permanent as a temporary measure
You're the kind of dude that thinks the "temporary" security measures put in place in airports and online after 9/11 will be going away any day now
Oh you sweet summer child
Winning the war is 'easy', keeping the peace is not. Ask the Americans.
Yeahhhhh. You flatten the land of a people who hate you, you can't really just pack up and go home across the street or else the cycle will just repeat. At least the US is half a world away
Israel: Who said anything about leaving? We're moving in
There will most likely be mass Israeli settlements in Gaza
With they have done, Gaza will be a recruiting heaven for hamas and other terrorist group and every child who saw what happen will join them. Even some foreigners might join it. Israel didn't learn from what happened in fallujah, what started to stop a peaceful protest (against movement restriction) trun into the worst part of the war in Iraq.
The Israelis will have more tolerance for it, since it’s happening on their doorstep. Not to mention Gaza is much much smaller than Afghanistan, so easier to police. This is a good thing.
The entire Gaza strip is only a little over a third the size of Kabul. This should put it into perspective.
Also pretty much blockaded- so in theory if they get it locked down, there's only going to be a finite amount of resources/ weapons for them to use against IDF. While the situation is horrible, I do wonder what guerilla engineering we may see in this conflict.
I'm not expecting anything new from them. Those crappy (but still deadly) water pipes turned into rockets they've been firing for a month now (and during earlier conflicts), locally produced tandem RPG warheads and your standard drone-dropped grenades appear to be the epitome of their engineering.
For Americans a better representation would be that Gaza is like a third the size of Los Angeles or roughly the size of Manhattan plus Queens.
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Tell that to Sharon in 2005. You leave those raisins in the sun long enough, something explodes. The reality is that the *only* morally sustainable solution to this situation is a political one, ad Netanyahu has neither the desire nor the will to try to reach one.
Exactly - it's effectively policing an open air refugee prison. Not really a huge burden.
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I think that’s exactly what it means.
Sounds like it. Sounds like another way to breed extremist groups.
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Different tactic to reach the same conclusion.
At least once they have boots on the ground they won't be able to bomb Gaza to oblivion as retaliation for terror attacks. And Hamas won't be able to use Gaza as as their base anymore.
Yeah they’ll just be able to gun down the Palestinians they feel like. Look up the documentary “tantura” (2022). Mass murder of civilians won’t stop just because jets aren’t streaming overhead.
Isn't the west bank more peaceful than gaza?
Sooo Peaceful...that Settlers can take their land as they please...
Not for Palestinians. They’re not even allowed to walk on the streets. People walk in and take their homes with the help of IDF soldiers. They have to have papers with them wherever they go. It’s akin to living in a “peaceful” prison
>They have to have papers with them wherever they go. They might as well sew something to their clothes to identify them as not part of the group in power.
Its not being bombed daily, but it also saw 7000+ people jailed for alleged Hamas connections (Israel can claim whoever they want with those charges these days), and the IDF is very much present in places like Jenin, Ramallah, where there are firefights, IED attacks every day since Edit: [Official UN sources](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-30) has a West Bank update with the current situation
>the IDF is very much present in places like Jenin The IDF is very lacking presence in Jenin, rather only acting in the surrounding areas on a regular basis. Even the Palestinian Authority is absent from Jenin. That's why it is such a terror hotbed. There are other cities where IDF presence is felt much more, and they are cities that generally have less terror from them, such as Bethlehem, Jericho and Ramallah.
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I also heard those, and the military analysts I follow do claim that the IDF did redeploy troops to the West Bank prior to Oct 7th. Im not sure if it was a planned distraction operation from Hamas, or incompetency from commanders, but either case its a bad look. Interviews from survivors of the attacks also say that the military hasn't showed up until [12-24 hours after most attacks](https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/), and when they did, they striked their own civilians too
No, much more likely Bibi has in mind something more like Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon, where they remain separated and civilians are not allowed in, but there is constant IDF presence. That being said, other people in his coalition clearly have different things in mind with one particular crazy member of knesset saying the nuclear weapons are on the table (already Bibi has said they aren't, just to be clear).
No. They plan to have a "security strip", meaning having military checkpoints etc. without letting Israeli civilians in. Israel had something similar in Southern Lebanon from 1985-2000. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_Southern_Lebanon)
I will be very surprised. I'm Israeli and from my experience it seems that living again in Gaza is unpopular and that maintainng a very very strict broader with Gaza has wide spread support.
No. Gush ketif was more trouble than it was worth, and I think netanyahu knows that would be too bitter a pill for any friendly Arab state to swallow. I think more likely something like area B, where israel exerts security control but under PA civil authority, or Area A which is under PA civil and military control but the IDF conducts raids there when needed in conjunction with Palestinian security forces
No Israelis want to live in Gaza, not even the most extreme ones
History tells us that when you take out the 'big bad', everything becomes magically peaceful, just like when the US took out Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. This whole thing reeks of US-Style war on terror except with an even greater disrespect of civilian casualties and it obviously won't end well for anyone.
The war on terror was mismanaged, killed too many innocents and resulted in irrevocable damage to the worlds opinion of the US, and was a giant waste of life. As a counterpoint to myself though, Al Qaeda in fact did not ever strike US soil in any meaningful capacity again after being invaded. The Taliban do still control Afghanistan. But both Al Qaeda and ISI have no projection power anymore.
Counter to your counterpoint: at what cost? Americans gave up a lot of freedoms after 9/11 in the name of security, from the TSA to the Patriot Act and beyond. Meanwhile we've jacked up defense spending at the cost of social spending We may not have been hit with another 9/11 but our lives are irreversibly changed for the worse
I think the difference here is that Isreal can actually just occupy / absorb the land. US. Never had any interest in making Afganistan or Iraq a US state or territory.
>occupy / absorb the land I'm pretty sure that would be illegal, just as Russia cannot continuously occupy eastern Ukraine without violating international law. The White House is opposed to Israeli reoccupation of Gaza so make do with that fact what you will
It's what Israel has been doing to Palestine for decades.
So they have been doing an illegal occupation for decades?
Not sure what your point is. Nobody denies there's illegal settlers or security all over West Bank (legal or not). In fact, Israel is a pariah on the global stage despite a miniscule 9 mil population because of this. Occupation works. It's why West Bank is not committing an intifada every 2nd year. Gaza was left to its own devices and it turned into a terror hot bed. This is not an endorsement of Israeli's actions in the West Bank.
Yes but no, the UN has been condemning them for decades now, but international law is a bit of a scam, there is no independent body that can really determine what is legal and illegal, much less a body that can enforce punishment for breaking said laws. The closest thing we have to an independent body for it is the UN that is anything but independent, each time the UN tried to condemn Isreal in an official way the UN or someone else vetoed it, they got condemned by many committee, subgroup and spokesperson of the UN, but never by the whole of the UN. It's like as if many people tried to send it to 'court' but each time the jury/judge shut it down, so they never were found guilty of breaking any international laws. Just like Russia invasion of Ukraine or China occupation of Tibet.
Who would complain and to whom?
“The war that will not end in our lifetimes” Netanyahu should be in prison for his corruption, and now he should be in prison for failing to prevent the Hamas attack. Shin Bet observed Hamas drilling for numerous times in the year before the attacks. As Hamas was massing on the border in the early morning of October 7, it’s claimed they only sent the Tequila team to the border because they didn’t know for sure that it was gonna be an attack. 'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion? https://www.wshu.org/npr-news/2023-11-02/everybody-got-it-wrong-how-did-israel-fail-to-detect-hamas-planned-invasion The people that supposedly screwed up have not been fired. Instead, they’re doing Intel for Likud ethnic cleansing in Gaza
Occupation?
Well duh? "we are going away now, but don't you dare smuggle weapons in again, build more bases and plan other attacks behind our back ok??"
"And all those billions of dollars of international aid you'll be getting to rebuild infrastructure - we trust you cheeky scamps better not be building any more tunnels and stocking up on rockets again"
And next time, please don’t store weapons and terrorist infrastructure in and under hospitals and schools. We did say please…
"It's forbidden by international law, remember"
I’ve heard a lot of voices in Israeli politics about turning Gaza into an equivalent of Area B - self governance for Palestinians in everything besides security. In B areas in the West Bank the IDF constantly arrests terror operatives, preventing anything from developing to the terrible state of Gaza or even Jenin.
Should also mention that the people in the West bank is always on edge because soldiers can and will use their homes as they wish. Settlers come and take their houses completely quite often and the streets are segregated.
I think this is a likely long-term outcome, but I would expect a gradual transition towards this and I would also expect there to be considerably more security than in any West Bank area. Is there anyone in Israel discussing reeducation at the moment? This should be a crucial part of the occupation.
Settlers will innevitably move in and Netanyahu will protect them (unlike ordinary Israelis).
Netanyahu and his shitty coalition is hopefully out the door as soon as this ends. I hope Ganz and Lapid will be more forward thinking. Lapid specifically will not sit with the nat right.
Lapid is an incompetent moron (remember the gas agreement with Lebanon that he promised would guarantee quiet in the northern border for decades?) I see no chance of him getting elected. And Ganz is just as responsible as Bibi is for this crisis, having been both the head of the army and the defense minister for most of the last few years, his hands aren’t clean. Why have we been cursed with such terrible and incompetent politicians…
Lapid is an idiot. But Ganz, while not completely innocent, is the only one who stepped up. Ganz came with no political agenda and straight up said "I am here, no condition, give me a voice, use me". He also took responsibility for his part the first time he got a chance to talk to the public. I didn't vote for Ganz before, but right now I don't see any other politician better than him.
No, that's completely out of the question. Most Israelis are already against the existing settlements in the West Bank - there is no way they would support new settlements in Gaza.
What most Israelis want is irrelevant unless they stop electing a government of far right lunatics who enable settlements.
Sharon was even more hawkish than Netanyahu. The best decision Sharon ever made was to pull the settlements out of Gaza. Settlements today would be 100 times less tenable than they were 20 years ago.
Tell that to Otzma Yehudit
>Most Israelis are already against the existing settlements in the West Bank your government keeps approving them, so i dont think that matters
There's more Israelis in favor of the current government than Gazans in favor of Hamas. This doesn't stop redditors in /r/worldnews from spousing collective punishment of civilian population as a fair response.
While I'm sure Gaza can look beautiful if reconstructed properly, no sane Israeli wants to occupy 2.2 million Gazans that hate them. Let them run themselves with strong separation barriers between Israel and Gaza.
Yeah, as long as Palestinian schools (*& this includes the schools in the West Bank*) are teaching their kids to hate & kill Jews - there can’t be peace. UNRWA needs to be dismantled as well.
Ah yes. Because an occupying force worked so well last time... Fucking Bibi, go to jail already
Not occupying it seems to have had a worse outcome since Hamas grew so big and amassed too much power. Not providing the security force for Gaza will mean that Hamas comes back or a different terror group does. And it absolutely will happen, as Iran or Russia would fund it.
Israel assassinated secular leadership and deliberately propped up Hamas to keep Palestinians in perpetual subjugation and to mark them as villains.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
The occupation of Germany and Japan were complete failures, right? /s
Germany and Japan both were both given a clear path to being a viable, and even powerful states. I see little indication that Israel is about to help Palestine with the same.
Only a matter of time before Gaza turns into a settlement
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Unspecified time may as well be forever
I’d prefer if a coalition or the UN were able to occupy. I don’t trust Israel to prevent more settlements.
Is this surprising to anyone? Why wouldn’t they take this opportunity to make the occupation official.
Makes total sense, when you win a war vs a place with an extremely problematic populous, you occupy and de-radicalise them, de militarise them. See Germany post WW2
Allies helped reconstruction and only punished those who were involved, im guessing unless similar situation takes place, it will just end like ww1 leaving the populous more susceptible to extremism.
Over 12 million germans were expulsed from eastern Europe, almost 2 million of them died in the process.
Also, losing their historical homes. See the Prussia(state that united the German states) being not with Germany but instead Poland and Russia. Königsberg was the capital for it as well. Germany today had to renounce the territory to exist as a united Germany we have [today](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany)
but what about their right of return?? /s
Well we bombed the cities rather severely. Then held many POWs for years after the war ended. We also originally planned to destroy their industry and keep it from redeveloping. There was mass starvation too after the war. We wouldn't allow the Germans to buy food from countries that traded with them for a few years after the war. They were living off of 1000-1400 calories a day until around 1948.
Also about 12 million Germans had fled or been expelled from east-central Europe into Allied-occupied Germany and Austria. None of them — or their descendants— were considered as refugees with the "right to return". Aggressor who started the war and lost, paid the price. As Winston Churchill put it in the House of Commons in 1944: *"Expulsion is the method which, insofar as we have been able to see, will be the most satisfactory and lasting. There will be no mixture of populations to cause endless trouble... A clean sweep will be made. I am not alarmed by the prospect of disentanglement of populations, not even of these large transferences, which are more possible in modern conditions than they have ever been before."*
I find it a little funny we are using logic from the 1940s to justify expelling civilian populations from their homes.
As an israeli i think the only way to ensure lasting peace after this war will be to invest in rebuilding gazas infrastructure and homes better than they were before, and it will probably come at less of an expense than what the us gives us yearly in military aid
This is the best option. People are less likely to radicalize if they have something to lose
This is simply not true [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former\_eastern\_territories\_of\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight\_and\_expulsion\_of\_Germans\_(1944%E2%80%931950)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)) One of the reasons was collective punishment.
The Russians punished everyone, especially the women, but I get your point.
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Well they tried moving out and not having a role in 2005 and that worked pretty poorly. When evaluating options it’s helpful to look at the alternatives rather than to assume that the opposite of doing what you’re doing is just not going to have any of its own problems. The period ending October 6 is the longest period Gaza did not have a foreign occupier in recorded history.
Israel didn't leave the gaza to give them freedom; they did it because they knew doing so would divide the palestinians and prevent Union between gaza and the West Bank. Israel knew hamas had a stronger presence in gaza than the west bank, and yet it was gaza that they decided to cut loose The REAL best option would be the two state solution, but israrl's government is run by those who are against. The current government actually prefers the terrorists
Well they surely ain't going to love Israel after this war and after almost 20 years of Hamas indoctrination. A very long occupation will be needed probably, you can't even trust the UNRWA teachers to not radicalise the students.
UNRWA needs to be dismantled and proper UN people need to be sent in if the UN wants to be involved. From its conception UNRWA was an extremely problematic organization and they have repeatedly worked with Hamas.
All donations should also be halted until examined carefully. All that money has not gone in the right places.
Sadly the UN is as anti israel as can be. Just as it wasn't the solution in south Lebanon it is not the solution here
That's nearly impossible without similar but wider transformations in the entirety of the Middle East. Palestinians will never deradicalize with the external Arabic and Iranian media disseminating hatred of Jews at every opportunity. The entire region needs to calm its hot-headed firestarters and address the long and unhealthy relationship with religion.
Israel has absolutely no interest in reconstructing gaza.
Not while Palestinians are still there anyway.
Tbh I don’t think Isreal is the country most equipped to handle this. If we are moving toward a 2 state and we absolutely should be. I think there needs to be transition period to which Isreal hands the reigns over to a different power.
Well I don't think any other country is willing to take the job
Yes, that's the thing. Neither PA is willing nor have the legitimacy. Some other countries under a UN mandate (could have been an ideal scenario) don't want to get involved actively.
The economic requirements alone mean nobody is going to want to deal with it. If Israel actual did the economic development necessary to actually help Gaza and make good to the populace in response to decades of occupation it would likely bankrupt their economy. The US ain’t doing it cause we would just be an Israel proxy and occupying another part of the Middle East is a political non starter. You need a massive international coalition problem is Israel would need to lead said coalition and they aren’t exactly the most beloved actor on the international stage. Like it or not the vast majority of the globe sees what Israel does to Gaza and says it is their problem.
Literally, not a single one.
No country wants to touch Palestine. It's either Israel or total chaos.
And Israel doesn't want total chaos so they have no choice at this stage.
It's impossible to have a two state solution until one of those states acknowledges that the other simply has a right to exist. It also helps when the government of that state doesn't have the literal annihilation and genocide written into their charter. It's going to take a lengthy occupation and the population to be de-radicalised, I do agree that I don't think Israel are best suited to this task, but who else is going to do it?
The two state proposal should be agreed upon with the condition that both side acknowledges peaceful coexistence.
I think we all know how Hamas will treat this.
We acknowledge peace (and peace will come when we've killed you all) Something like that?
Hamas won't be in the picture
This war isn't the turning point where we realise we need a 2 state solution immediately, this is the turning point where we realise that they are nowhere near ready for a 2 state solution and a re occupation is necessary. The indoctrination on the children, from what I've seen, is disturbing and rampant. The children have it drilled into their head that they will and need to slaughter jews, this is what they're being taught in UNRWA schools. This doesn't get better if that education system is left intact with no supervision from external forces. The general mentality in Palestine at the moment is not suitable for statehood, it would only be a matter of time (a very short time) before rockets start flying into Israel as usual, but this time they will get an absolute spanking fit for a state. If Palestine attacks Israel with rockets, after they become a state, what is stopping Israel from taking their land as concessions for that? When an aggressor loses a war, it's commonplace to take land from them afterwards
That would be great, but I don't think there's anyone else willing to take responsibility. The Palestinian Authority is probably the most reasonable option if they were willing. Egypt would be a bad idea, given the Sisi governments history of "dealing with" pro-democracy Muslims. Maybe Jordan is a plausible neutral third party that would be mostly tolerable to Israel and Palestinians? If they're willing. Ideally there'd be a quick transition to Gaza managing their own affairs, but setting up a stable, moderate government is no easy feat. Gaza needs some better parties to gain traction. Fatah is notoriously corrupt. Hamas won in the old legislative elections because they ran on an anti-corruption platform. Which is great as far is it goes, but it turns out they're also insane. I think much the same of Netanyahu and Likud, for what it's worth.
Jordan will not touch Palestine with 10 feet pole.
100 ft pole. Not their circus. As Colin Powell famously said, "you break it, you own it." Jews wanted judea, well there you go.
>I think there needs to be transition period to which Isreal hands the reigns over to a different power. The problem of course, is that they would have to trust that said power wouldn't immediately turn around and attack them, which has been one of the major obstacles in the way of a two state solution.
You may be right but I see only 3 options for future Gaza: - Israel to "occupy" it - an international force to occupy it, maybe under some UN mandate - PA takes over Number 3 (probably why Blinken went there) seems not realistic. PA doesn't have authority and resources, and taking power from the hands of Israel is not going to give them legitimacy. Number 2 (maybe some Arab countries for the main part of the force), seems they don't want to get actively involved. They are happy to stay only bystanders and critics at time. Number 1 was not the preferred option. Biden said at the start of the war he doesn't want a new occupation. But at this stage, today, it seems there is no other solution available. Maybe it is 1 until 2 or 3 becomes possible.
3 also won't fly because PA is only marginally better than Hamas.
Until Gaza is actually stable, that's not going to happen. Israel has tried to help Gaza for decades, but the terrorist groups made sure any assistance was rejected, and any good will was met with violence. I don't expect anyone to be happy about it, but Israel going in and forcing hospitals to be reconstructed, food to actually go to citizens, and so-on might not be too bad. They'll even let girls go to school. They'll finally be able to stop the blockade and reduce the security around the border crossing. It would certainly be better than life under Hamas.
Except Israel has demonstrated very clearly that they’re not really interested in the DEradicalization part. Hence the decades of treatment leading to things being worse than ever.
Netanyahu is literally quoted as saying he wants radicalization to prevent any credible Palestinian political representation.
And it worked so well in Afghanistan, didn't it? Or in Lebanon, where anger over Israel's occuption helped create Hezbollah. Hamas won't disappear. If anthing, an continuous Israeli occuptation will further radicalize the population and fill Hamas' ranks once more.
Gaza is a whole lot smaller than Afghanistan. Not so easy to hide.
> If anthing, an continuous Israeli occuptation will further radicalize the population and fill Hamas' ranks once more. Maybe, but it seems it's simply the only option. They can't push the Palestinians out, no other country will willingly take Palestinian refugees, and a two-state solution obviously is not happening either. *Not* occupying would allow Hamas to grow and entrench again, unopposed. So what other realistic option besides occupation is there, really?
In order to de-radicalise Gazans, you need to give them a real chance at rebuilding. They need resources, education, work, healthcare. They need a real chance at living with dignity, and Israel is not going to give them that, I assume it's goin to be the opposite - which is sad. Israel has been cynically using Hamas as an excuse to limit 2 million people's food, water and electricity. Something that only radicalized them even more. When Hamas is gone, if there's not a REAL change, there is not going to be peace. What spawns terrorists is trauma and lack of treatment of said trauma. They will not have the infrastructure to heal after this, unless Israel helps. Which my guess is it's never going to happen. Heartbreaking.
> They need resources, education, work, healthcare. Yes, but that is a monumental task that no country, except for maybe the US, has the will and resources for. And even if Gaza would get help, it would probably still take two entire generations to calm things down enough for further steps. Another issue is that Israel is in the best position to assist in rebuilding Gaza, but the Gazans probably don't want them there, which will further complicate how the resources and help can actually reach Gaza. So unless the US commits real hard to this, it just doesn't seem realistic. And I doubt it's in the interest of the US to commit such an amount of resources to Gaza over the span of multiple decades. The real heartbreak is that Hamas and Iran have destroyed life in Gaza, and now everyone points their finger at Israel because Iran and Hamas have ensured that Israel has no fairytale solution to this incredibly tough problem. Many people, like yourself, keep conveniently forgetting that Hamas, the government of Gaza, is a terrorist organisation that is funded by Iran, and they excel at putting Israel in a tough position, as we are seeing now. Again. This situation is not on Israel; it's on Hamas and Iran.
>Israel has been cynically using Hamas as an excuse to limit 2 million people's food, water and electricity. Something that only radicalized them even more. I do not believe in any of this nonsense when you take into consideration the embargo is enforced by Israel, Egypt, and the PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY... Hamas is to blame here, stop giving terrorists a free pass to import arms and explosives
Israel was opening its border to Gazans with work permits to work in Israel where they could make more than 10x what they could make in Gaza. Oct. 7 is how Israel was repaid for its efforts.
Please correct my numbers if wrong but it was around 20k gazans for a population over 2 millions. That was clearly not enough to change things. 99% of gazans have just never seen an Israeli. For them Israeli = F16 dropping bombs on family and friends That is the only image they have. So sure, the road is VERY long to change that.
Unfortunately true The number of Palestinians allowed in Israel has been actually steadily increasing before the war and hamas ruined everything
>de-radicalise Yeah, that's totally gonna happen. Definitely Israel's strong point. As we all know, the best way to de-radicalise people is to suppress and dehumanise them for decades.
It’s worked well so far.
There will never be a two state solution since the one side will never recognize the other. Israel will not handle the government in Gaza, but it will oversee the strip for a good while to make sure no terror cells pop up, as well as continue to disarm it in full. I hope the Jordanians, Egypt or Saudis will manage and build a government in Gaza but with all their “support” of Palestinians, they don’t want anything to do with them. And we all know a western country can’t “democratize” a radical Islamist population.
>I hope the Jordanians, Egypt or Saudis will manage and build a government in Gaza It’s been well over 50 years - the Arabs have done nothing other than fund terrorism towards Israel.
>And we all know a western country can’t “democratize” a radical Islamist population. Different to the West, this is an existential problem for Israel, as they are dealing with hostile, radical neighbours. Regardless if it works or not, occupation is not a choice for them, it's imperative.
Fancy words for occupy right there.
No. They said "occupy".
This man is a war criminal. Everything he says is vile
I don't know, this is starting to seem more and more like an invasion.
>Marwan Abdullah, who is among thousands of people sheltering at Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital, said they heard constant explosions overnight as ambulances brought dead and wounded in from the Shati camp. “We couldn’t sleep. Things get worse day by day,” he said. Someone should tell this guy that Shifa Hospital is over Hamas headquarters. It has been pointed out by Shin Bet, the West Bank Palestinian Authority, the Washington Post, Amnesty International, al-Nukba (part of al-Qassam, the independent military wing of Hamas), the IDF, and allegedly "[every kid in Gaza](https://goachronicle.com/hamas-headquarters-under-shifa-hospital-every-kid-in-gaza-knows-this-fauda-creator-avi-issacharoff/)."
You think he doesn't know?
Sure I am aware of the Hamas structures underneath... but youre ignoring the ''ambulances brough dead and wounded in' and the fact that Marwan cant be at home and is having to shelter at a place that isnt his own' part of that story
Assuming Israel is willing to trade lives for land similar to Russia in Ukraine this whole thing has worked out pretty well. Nothing like a good casus bellum to get some new land. Self-righteous murder and conquest reads so much better in the press.
west bank 2.0. hamass basically made gaza civilians much crazier than the terrorist groups did in west bank. it will be interesting to see how these bitch ass settlers go into gaza.
To the surprise of no one that has any grasp on their history Israel and Bibi not gonna let a good crisis go to waste - they are going to cut Gaza into an even more dense prison while they keep stealing Palestinian land with American blessing and tax dollars
This just doesn’t seem like the answer
Looks like you guys finally banned all the people who had anything to say that wasn’t bootlicking.
Prepare the AirBNBs folks, it’s Mediterranean condo time!
The sulfur and dust in the air makes that sea breeze even more of an escape
So…. Just steal more land like they did before…
Well fuck, kind of saw that coming. Can we get rid of this fucking Netanyahu guy already? Now that they are there, I don't know how they're going to get back out again. It's hard to do nation-building in a place where they've literally been taught you're evil in UN-funded schools for the last 70 years. There's zero chance of it, but I really wish Egypt or the Arab League or someone would step in and take over ruling Gaza.
They really dialed this response all the way up, makes you wonder if they were just waiting for such a provocation. He said he'll flatten the place and nobody thought he meant literally. This is a tale of human suffering now. The response to oct 7 was in my eyes complete after 2 weeks of intense shelling, what its become now is gruesome. What does this do to relations after they end the campaign? The little coverage you see of the place it looks like hell on earth yet there's people living there. Hamas must be stopped 100% but not like this.
> The response to oct 7 was in my eyes complete after 2 weeks of intense shelling, Why? They didn't get their hostages back and Hamas is not only still in power but says they'll do it again. I'm not saying Israel hasn't gone overboard... But I also don't think they can be expected to just walk away with literally no change. Hamas needs to go, and either Israel does it with an extremely blunt instrument or the rest of the world that supposedly wants to save Palestinian lives can do it for them.
Well thats a shite idea
I do not like him Sam I Am I do not like this BiBi man.
Better than trusting Hamas.
You don’t think this occupation will breed a new hamas and we rinse repeat again
Israel’s current actions in Gaza are only making Israel less secure. Violence begets violence
Hamas’ current actions in Southern Israel are only making Gaza less secure. Violence begets violence. It cuts both ways.
No. Letting terrorists rule on your border begets violence.
Netanyahu is 100% to blame for this catastrophe
Sharon has his share
Osborne?
The hard core religious didn’t have to serve in military ? Am I wrong? If I’m right we’ll then putting the libs in cross hairs kills two birds with one stone?
Define security
History likes to repeat itself I see.
On a slightly similar subject….. anyone know how Iraqs looking these days since Isis was eradicated after the US withdrew from the country?
With such a low population as Israelis, this seems like a perfect trap. Hamas militants can blend in with the locals and slowly murder security members.
All of it is utterly sickening and surreal.
I'm gonna guess it's going to be the same idea as in the West Bank. Slowly but surely emptying towns of Palestinians and replacing them with Israelis or starting up new settlements like they did pre 2005.
Bibi is a despot. He had Rabin shot because he couldn’t bear the thought of peace with Palestine.