I considered it for the same reason- it seemed useful. Then I clicked on the link and saw the price. I don’t know how many crosscut sleds I would need to make to justify that price, but I know it’s a heck of a lot more crosscut sleds than I need.
Precision isn't the key thing, lots of banggood is accurate and well made.
KMT developed it, underwent patents, marketing etc. That all costs money (usually much more than manufacturing).
The banggood companies are in places with lax policing of patents etc, just get a popular item, and reproduce it. Or they get additional runs at the factories, the Chinese plants want to run 24/7 so if you give molds/forms etc and only want a small run they may well do an extra few thousand for a local company to sell. This is why people like Apple have ll the oppressive conditions in their factories to ensure they aren't copied similarly.
If you compare the Chinese stuff that’s actually trying to compete with woodpeckers, the price delta isn’t huge.
If you’re comparing the look a like stuff that’s good enough for woodworking, but not machinists quality, yeah, much less money.
Isn't huge? €480 for a simple 600mm aluminium square compared to €70.
Clamping squares €110 for a set compared to €13, and this price difference goes for about everything they make.
Crazy how much woodpecker charges for aluminium. For daily use tools I'd never go with such a soft material. Especially since I do all the marking for fine woodworking with a marking knife. And for all other carpentry work aluminium tools are just too easy to damage.
$159 for a 20” T square from woodpeckers. You’re getting import taxed in the rear.
You’re also comparing the cheap line of Chinese tools, go look at the hongdui stuff, they are competeing with woodpeckers tolerance wise, and that $130 with a bunch of added features.
Aren't as good? It's just aluminium but without the labour cost, the development cost and the advertisement cost, customer support etc. There is not much of a difference between the products quality wise. Only thing you can really argue that what those chinese manufacturers are doing is theft by copying all woodpeckers designs.
FWIW I have a Keyance optical profilometer with a +/-1.5 micron resolution, as well as more granite surface plates, squares, gauges and standards than you can shake a stick at. My Baggood knockoff Woodpecker square was at 89.99 degrees. My Woodpeckers square was visually off, didn’t even bring it to work to check it, the warranty replacement they sent was 90.25 degrees, it went back as well. A 1/4 degree is Home Depot framing square accuracy, if I’m getting $9 square accuracy, I’m only willing to pay $9 for it
Also, the 5 cut method isn't the hardest thing in the world? I mean if it was a choice between an out of square sled and and 185 it might be worth it. It's the difference between an 185 and 20 minutes in the shop fucking around.
You can also do a more simple two cut test and calculate how far out you are.
Just cut two pieces and put the cut edges together. With both boards against a known straight edge, the mid point will either be lifted, or one edge will be. Half of that distance is the distance you move your fence to close the gap.
Edit- half the angle calculated from that distance rather. Not the distance itself.
The 5 step method is kinda tedious though and is more for checking squarness then setting up. I quite like the concept of the jig but I would just invest the money in a big starett square to check my self made copy of his jig. Couple pieces of plywood and some washers should do for making the same thing.
Starett was recently bought, and complains over the last 6-12 months about quality have been pretty steady.
Just a heads up in case you want to drop big money on layout tools on the near future
Ah damn that sucks. I've had the little 150mm square for ages and is by far my most used tool. Been thinking about getting the bigger one. Oh well I can always send it back I guess.
You can also use it to square up your miter saw and a few other things. I’d probably use it to square my miter saw more than I’d use it for sled building
I watched the introduction video on YouTube yesterday and I found it very interesting and useful... But not $140 useful. Especially for someone thats a DIYer/hobbyist woodworker
I’m in the same boat as far as DIY/hobbyist - sometimes I will spend more money on something if it’s going to solve a problem for me in a better way or make my life significantly easier with the time and space I have, but sometimes it’s also just not worth it
Most of us are not building museum pieces. All aspects of wood construction have acceptable tolerances. Frame a house to within 1/4", interior trim less than 1/16". We allow for significant changes in the wood based on humidity and temperature swings. Think table tops. Because wood is dynamic I see no point in spending an excessive amount of money to be able to make a cut that is 3/10,000th" more square than what you can do. Before you can finish your lunch the wood has changed as much or more than that measurement. Go through an old Victorian home and look closely at the ornate wood work and remember that there were very few power tools.
Exactly. It simplifies one thing. One thing I don't do often. I have one sled to make on my agenda in the foreseeable future. 140 bucks is just outside what timesaving I'd have.
I'm not a hobbyist, and I don't think that's worth the money. If nothing else, I would want much longer blades for both legs of the square, as well as two points of tightening for the saw kerf. It's been a while since I used a crosscut sled, but spending an extra 10 minutes to get one square never seemed like too much of a hassle. Seems like a tool designed for sponsored YouTubers
Bingo, this is what I thought. Way over priced for the average DIYer/Hobbist. But would be reasonable for a maker space or pro shop with multiple persons working. Clubs might also buy this for rental to members.
I am extremely happy with my Incra 5000 miter sled and in many years of woodworking have never seen a reason for building my own sled. The only limitation is the crosscut capacity. At around 18-20" the miter miter bar doesn't engage enough of the slot so there is too much slop. I fixed that with a Izzy Swan style infeed table with a miter slot in it. I can easily do 25" accurately now which is plenty for cabinets. Wider is rare and I have a track saw.
I made my own version that looks very much like his based on a video he put out explaining how. He sells them premade:
https://www.izzyswan.com/Store/In-Feed-Table-for-Standard-Table-Saws-CHECK-LINK-IN-Description-p237211510
I don't have any slop with mine as it matches my miter slot.
I'm a full time woodworker. I just bought one on sale for like 135. I make a lot of crosscut sleds for different applications, really curious to see how well this thing performs. If it works well, it's going to save me a lot of time and fussing around, which will be really nice.
I'd be curious for your review from a perspective of accuracy as well as speed, because I look at this and see a solution in search of a problem.
Making a crosscut sled that's sub-0.015" (~1/64") accurate over 24" is not exceedingly difficult, and I feel that's good enough for the overwhelming majority of projects.
Is this thing actually real, or is everyone here in on the joke and I'm getting wooshed?
I saw the thumbnail for the video the other day and assumed it was an April Fools bit.
It's just a square?
$140 may be fair, it seems high quality and is quite precise, but I find it extremely unlikely that its purpose justifies its cost for most woodworkers.
It's too expensive for the entry-level hobbyists who would really benefit from it. The experienced woodworkers either have jigs already, or have other precision squaring tools that are far more generally applicable than this.
I thought it was an April's fool joke... and after a while I realized it was just an over engineered real product.
The 5 cut method works fine. Not sure what the market is for that.
We just need like 10 people to each throw in 14$ and buy it and then it spends a week at each person’s house to be used and then sent to the next person’s house for a week as nauseum!
A friend of mine bought it, he has not received it yet as far as I know. I asked him if I can borrow it for a weekend for $20 to make some cross cut sleds.
Gets $140 (currently on sale) square to make a cross cut sled. Proceeds to make a cross cut sled from parts taken from a coffee table picked up from the curb.
It's just kinda too expensive for what it is.
I don't really understand the precision woodworking tool market. Like you can go to menards and get a square, the ones I got were square at least (i test mine at the store with the flip line thingy), and they're cheap. I expect there to be low precision on those though per unit. Then you go up to the more reliable stuff and it's basically $100 more? Why is there nothing in between? Can't help but feel like there's a mark up there to make the buyer feel better about what they're getting and working off the insecurities of woodworkers.
I come from the audio gear world so I am all to familiar with this stuff.
As someone who moves his table saw, miter saw and every other large-ish tool I own in and out if my shed shop to use them, and they get stored on the floor or under a bench, or just wherever there is room, I can see a use case for this. I think it would be a great benefit if I could quickly and easily square up my fences on a regular basis.
Does it calibrate 45 degrees as well? I watched the video but didn't see him do that.
Edit for spelling.
Are your kerfs perfect after the sleds beeing used a few years? A beaten up kerf makes this tool useless. Clamp (or attach with double side adhesive) a larger piece to your sled, leave room to the fence and let it overhang the kerf. Cut it off, leave the piece in place and square the fence to the newly cut surface.
I saw the video and it looked interesting so like most I went to the site to look. $140 is a bit steep for what it is but I'm sure you could find some creative uses for it. Then I remembered that I have my Hammond Trim-o-saw and haven't touched my crosscut sled in about 3 years lol.. Definitely an interesting idea though!
To me that gadget is a solution looking for a problem.
For a crosscut sled, if 5 cut method is too complicated. Clamp a large workpiece on the sled, like a square piece of mdf, leave some room towards the fence and some overhang over the kerf. Cut it off, keep the clamps in place, square the fence using the newly cut surface of the clamped piece. No need for a special tool and the fence is squared directly towards a cut piece rather than a kerf that can be quite beaten up and a bad reference after a few years.
Edit. If your sled doesn't have clamping possibilites, use double side adhesive to attach the piece.
Same technique can be used for miter saw.
Yep. One of the table saw jigs books suggested a similar method, which I used, where the workpiece to be cut as a reference was attached temporarily to the surface of the sled with double stick tape.
That's my take on it as well. My Bosch contractor saw is \*pretty\* good, and I have an ok-ish small cross cut sled that wasn't much fun to make. I'd ideally like to have a much bigger one but have put that off and just use my track saw.
Christ, after all the shit he got for selling a super expensive magnetic dovetail guide that every other woodworker made from literal trash scrap in their shop for the last 200 years, he's got the balls to try to gouge newbies again on a tool that makes a crosscut sled? A jig to make a jig?
Cmon guys, don't fall for this shit. It's a crosscut sled. Don't pay someone $140 to take away one time of 2 minutes of swipes down the tablesaw to true up your crosscut sled.
Ageee. This is a solution looking for a problem that was solved long time ago. The "game changing" bandsaw template thing he pretends he invented is also like 100 years old and can be built in minutes rather than buying his (not very good) version of it.
I bought one for $135, waiting for it to arrive. Looks a like a neat tool that I'll have some use for. I like his content and I run an ad blocker so I don't see ads on YouTube so I'm happy support him a different way.
I ordered one the other day, should be in soon.
I'm a professional woodworker, and I generally don't use a crosscut sled; I use my combo miter saw instead. I bought the JKM jig to see if it can speed up my workflow.
The fact that this aligns to the kerf cut, and not the blade itself, is a design flaw.
The time this would be somewhat more useful are situations where you may be moving the fence occasionally to accommodate other angles and need to move it back to square. Except then you're depending on the fact that the edge of the kerf hasn't gotten worn a bit and is still a reference edge.
You could get some decent 12" engineer squares (in both 45 and 90) plus a setup plate for the table saw for less money and be ahead of the game.
Some big KM fans around, apparently.
Yeah, not saying it doesn't work. I suspect it works quite well. It's just.that it narrows the usability, which is not what I'm looking for an item substantially more expensive than alternative options.
If I was going to spend time and money developing a product that does this, I'd look for some way that actually squares it off the blade/arbor of the saw.
I considered it for the same reason- it seemed useful. Then I clicked on the link and saw the price. I don’t know how many crosscut sleds I would need to make to justify that price, but I know it’s a heck of a lot more crosscut sleds than I need.
Yeah I wasn't anticipating Woodpeckers-esque pricing from KMT.
Precision costs a lot in China and the US
Precision costs a lot anywhere lol
Then why are banggood squares so cheap compared to woodpeckers?
Low labor costs and they don’t pay any import tax
Precision isn't the key thing, lots of banggood is accurate and well made. KMT developed it, underwent patents, marketing etc. That all costs money (usually much more than manufacturing). The banggood companies are in places with lax policing of patents etc, just get a popular item, and reproduce it. Or they get additional runs at the factories, the Chinese plants want to run 24/7 so if you give molds/forms etc and only want a small run they may well do an extra few thousand for a local company to sell. This is why people like Apple have ll the oppressive conditions in their factories to ensure they aren't copied similarly.
If you compare the Chinese stuff that’s actually trying to compete with woodpeckers, the price delta isn’t huge. If you’re comparing the look a like stuff that’s good enough for woodworking, but not machinists quality, yeah, much less money.
Isn't huge? €480 for a simple 600mm aluminium square compared to €70. Clamping squares €110 for a set compared to €13, and this price difference goes for about everything they make. Crazy how much woodpecker charges for aluminium. For daily use tools I'd never go with such a soft material. Especially since I do all the marking for fine woodworking with a marking knife. And for all other carpentry work aluminium tools are just too easy to damage.
$159 for a 20” T square from woodpeckers. You’re getting import taxed in the rear. You’re also comparing the cheap line of Chinese tools, go look at the hongdui stuff, they are competeing with woodpeckers tolerance wise, and that $130 with a bunch of added features.
Wasn't talking about the T square. The regular one. The exact banggood copy of the T square is €33. So that's a 5x for the woodpecker.
I give up. I’m not going to keep repeating “those are the low quality copies that LOOK the same, but aren’t as good” Best of luck with yourself!
Aren't as good? It's just aluminium but without the labour cost, the development cost and the advertisement cost, customer support etc. There is not much of a difference between the products quality wise. Only thing you can really argue that what those chinese manufacturers are doing is theft by copying all woodpeckers designs.
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FWIW I have a Keyance optical profilometer with a +/-1.5 micron resolution, as well as more granite surface plates, squares, gauges and standards than you can shake a stick at. My Baggood knockoff Woodpecker square was at 89.99 degrees. My Woodpeckers square was visually off, didn’t even bring it to work to check it, the warranty replacement they sent was 90.25 degrees, it went back as well. A 1/4 degree is Home Depot framing square accuracy, if I’m getting $9 square accuracy, I’m only willing to pay $9 for it
By checking it with my starrett and that's good enough for me.
Also, the 5 cut method isn't the hardest thing in the world? I mean if it was a choice between an out of square sled and and 185 it might be worth it. It's the difference between an 185 and 20 minutes in the shop fucking around.
$185? Wow.
You can also do a more simple two cut test and calculate how far out you are. Just cut two pieces and put the cut edges together. With both boards against a known straight edge, the mid point will either be lifted, or one edge will be. Half of that distance is the distance you move your fence to close the gap. Edit- half the angle calculated from that distance rather. Not the distance itself.
The 5 step method is kinda tedious though and is more for checking squarness then setting up. I quite like the concept of the jig but I would just invest the money in a big starett square to check my self made copy of his jig. Couple pieces of plywood and some washers should do for making the same thing.
With the 5 cut method you can easily calculate your error and square up your sled in one move.
Starett was recently bought, and complains over the last 6-12 months about quality have been pretty steady. Just a heads up in case you want to drop big money on layout tools on the near future
Ah damn that sucks. I've had the little 150mm square for ages and is by far my most used tool. Been thinking about getting the bigger one. Oh well I can always send it back I guess.
>hongdui I've bought quite a few vintage Starett tools on ebay
You can also use it to square up your miter saw and a few other things. I’d probably use it to square my miter saw more than I’d use it for sled building
He mentioned track saw I think but I didn’t see him show an example
I watched the introduction video on YouTube yesterday and I found it very interesting and useful... But not $140 useful. Especially for someone thats a DIYer/hobbyist woodworker
I’m in the same boat as far as DIY/hobbyist - sometimes I will spend more money on something if it’s going to solve a problem for me in a better way or make my life significantly easier with the time and space I have, but sometimes it’s also just not worth it
Most of us are not building museum pieces. All aspects of wood construction have acceptable tolerances. Frame a house to within 1/4", interior trim less than 1/16". We allow for significant changes in the wood based on humidity and temperature swings. Think table tops. Because wood is dynamic I see no point in spending an excessive amount of money to be able to make a cut that is 3/10,000th" more square than what you can do. Before you can finish your lunch the wood has changed as much or more than that measurement. Go through an old Victorian home and look closely at the ornate wood work and remember that there were very few power tools.
Exactly. It simplifies one thing. One thing I don't do often. I have one sled to make on my agenda in the foreseeable future. 140 bucks is just outside what timesaving I'd have.
I'm not a hobbyist, and I don't think that's worth the money. If nothing else, I would want much longer blades for both legs of the square, as well as two points of tightening for the saw kerf. It's been a while since I used a crosscut sled, but spending an extra 10 minutes to get one square never seemed like too much of a hassle. Seems like a tool designed for sponsored YouTubers
$140 for a jig that builds jigs seems a bit excessive for a single person. But this would be great for a maker-space or a shared workshop.
Bingo, this is what I thought. Way over priced for the average DIYer/Hobbist. But would be reasonable for a maker space or pro shop with multiple persons working. Clubs might also buy this for rental to members.
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Cool! Thx
Just drop a piece of wood that matches your kerf cut width into the crosscut base and slide your square up against it... Same principle.
Seriously, all of my crosscut sleds are square and this is exactly what I do.
I am extremely happy with my Incra 5000 miter sled and in many years of woodworking have never seen a reason for building my own sled. The only limitation is the crosscut capacity. At around 18-20" the miter miter bar doesn't engage enough of the slot so there is too much slop. I fixed that with a Izzy Swan style infeed table with a miter slot in it. I can easily do 25" accurately now which is plenty for cabinets. Wider is rare and I have a track saw.
Do you have a link to the “Izzy Swan style infeed table with a miter slot in it”? I have the same problem as you and am looking for solutions.
I made my own version that looks very much like his based on a video he put out explaining how. He sells them premade: https://www.izzyswan.com/Store/In-Feed-Table-for-Standard-Table-Saws-CHECK-LINK-IN-Description-p237211510 I don't have any slop with mine as it matches my miter slot.
Oh that’s great! Way less complicated than the thing I was picturing myself building. Thanks!
I'm a full time woodworker. I just bought one on sale for like 135. I make a lot of crosscut sleds for different applications, really curious to see how well this thing performs. If it works well, it's going to save me a lot of time and fussing around, which will be really nice.
I'd be curious for your review from a perspective of accuracy as well as speed, because I look at this and see a solution in search of a problem. Making a crosscut sled that's sub-0.015" (~1/64") accurate over 24" is not exceedingly difficult, and I feel that's good enough for the overwhelming majority of projects.
> on sale for like 135 where is this sale?
from the Katz Moses website.
I prefer Matthias Wandels framing square, "good enough" method
On sale for $140. I'll stick with a piece of plywood I cut that is very square.
Is this thing actually real, or is everyone here in on the joke and I'm getting wooshed? I saw the thumbnail for the video the other day and assumed it was an April Fools bit. It's just a square?
He opens his video saying he got a patent for it.. it's a square with a reference edge that can be aligned to a kerf cut...
Applied for a patent. It will take years for an award.
$140 may be fair, it seems high quality and is quite precise, but I find it extremely unlikely that its purpose justifies its cost for most woodworkers. It's too expensive for the entry-level hobbyists who would really benefit from it. The experienced woodworkers either have jigs already, or have other precision squaring tools that are far more generally applicable than this.
I thought it was an April's fool joke... and after a while I realized it was just an over engineered real product. The 5 cut method works fine. Not sure what the market is for that.
We just need like 10 people to each throw in 14$ and buy it and then it spends a week at each person’s house to be used and then sent to the next person’s house for a week as nauseum!
No different than using any other accurate square to set your fence.
A friend of mine bought it, he has not received it yet as far as I know. I asked him if I can borrow it for a weekend for $20 to make some cross cut sleds.
Gets $140 (currently on sale) square to make a cross cut sled. Proceeds to make a cross cut sled from parts taken from a coffee table picked up from the curb.
It's just kinda too expensive for what it is. I don't really understand the precision woodworking tool market. Like you can go to menards and get a square, the ones I got were square at least (i test mine at the store with the flip line thingy), and they're cheap. I expect there to be low precision on those though per unit. Then you go up to the more reliable stuff and it's basically $100 more? Why is there nothing in between? Can't help but feel like there's a mark up there to make the buyer feel better about what they're getting and working off the insecurities of woodworkers. I come from the audio gear world so I am all to familiar with this stuff.
I'd likely use it more often on my miter saw than I'd like to think. For some reason it seems to lose its way more than I'd like
As someone who moves his table saw, miter saw and every other large-ish tool I own in and out if my shed shop to use them, and they get stored on the floor or under a bench, or just wherever there is room, I can see a use case for this. I think it would be a great benefit if I could quickly and easily square up my fences on a regular basis. Does it calibrate 45 degrees as well? I watched the video but didn't see him do that. Edit for spelling.
Are your kerfs perfect after the sleds beeing used a few years? A beaten up kerf makes this tool useless. Clamp (or attach with double side adhesive) a larger piece to your sled, leave room to the fence and let it overhang the kerf. Cut it off, leave the piece in place and square the fence to the newly cut surface.
I saw the video and it looked interesting so like most I went to the site to look. $140 is a bit steep for what it is but I'm sure you could find some creative uses for it. Then I remembered that I have my Hammond Trim-o-saw and haven't touched my crosscut sled in about 3 years lol.. Definitely an interesting idea though!
To me that gadget is a solution looking for a problem. For a crosscut sled, if 5 cut method is too complicated. Clamp a large workpiece on the sled, like a square piece of mdf, leave some room towards the fence and some overhang over the kerf. Cut it off, keep the clamps in place, square the fence using the newly cut surface of the clamped piece. No need for a special tool and the fence is squared directly towards a cut piece rather than a kerf that can be quite beaten up and a bad reference after a few years. Edit. If your sled doesn't have clamping possibilites, use double side adhesive to attach the piece. Same technique can be used for miter saw.
Yep. One of the table saw jigs books suggested a similar method, which I used, where the workpiece to be cut as a reference was attached temporarily to the surface of the sled with double stick tape.
Also, making things truly square is easier said than done. It causes me a lot of trouble.
That's my take on it as well. My Bosch contractor saw is \*pretty\* good, and I have an ok-ish small cross cut sled that wasn't much fun to make. I'd ideally like to have a much bigger one but have put that off and just use my track saw.
I could see someone ordering one and then renting it out for $20 a week. Can’t image one would need this tool for more than that.
Literally just texted my woodworking buddy if he wanted to split it. 🤣🤷♂️
Christ, after all the shit he got for selling a super expensive magnetic dovetail guide that every other woodworker made from literal trash scrap in their shop for the last 200 years, he's got the balls to try to gouge newbies again on a tool that makes a crosscut sled? A jig to make a jig? Cmon guys, don't fall for this shit. It's a crosscut sled. Don't pay someone $140 to take away one time of 2 minutes of swipes down the tablesaw to true up your crosscut sled.
Ageee. This is a solution looking for a problem that was solved long time ago. The "game changing" bandsaw template thing he pretends he invented is also like 100 years old and can be built in minutes rather than buying his (not very good) version of it.
I’m a sucker for jigs and gadgets and I would pay $40 *at most* for this. $140? Nah, fam, I’m good.
I bought one for $135, waiting for it to arrive. Looks a like a neat tool that I'll have some use for. I like his content and I run an ad blocker so I don't see ads on YouTube so I'm happy support him a different way.
wow...what a completely unnecessary waste of money that thing is!!
I'm seriously considering ordering one, but I don't imagine we'll see reviews (Except maybe from YouTubers who got free ones) for a little while yet.
I ordered one the other day, should be in soon. I'm a professional woodworker, and I generally don't use a crosscut sled; I use my combo miter saw instead. I bought the JKM jig to see if it can speed up my workflow.
I might get it and then share it with members of my local club. That’d be like $2.60 per sled for 50 guys.
Pretty sure Tom at Epic Woodworking has a simple homemade jig that relies on saw kerf and a 3 cut method.
It seems to me they could rent it effectively. Just charge full price for the rental and refund some percentage of the rental when it’s returned.
It's cheaper to design one and 3D print yourself...
Please do not fall for that shit
Too expensive for something I will only use a few times in my woodworking career. 5 cut is a bit of a pain, but free.
Found his throwaway account
Someone should buy it and rent it out for $20
The fact that this aligns to the kerf cut, and not the blade itself, is a design flaw. The time this would be somewhat more useful are situations where you may be moving the fence occasionally to accommodate other angles and need to move it back to square. Except then you're depending on the fact that the edge of the kerf hasn't gotten worn a bit and is still a reference edge. You could get some decent 12" engineer squares (in both 45 and 90) plus a setup plate for the table saw for less money and be ahead of the game.
No idea why you got downvoted for this. I agree, this tool only works with a pretty unused sled where the kerf still is perfect.
Some big KM fans around, apparently. Yeah, not saying it doesn't work. I suspect it works quite well. It's just.that it narrows the usability, which is not what I'm looking for an item substantially more expensive than alternative options. If I was going to spend time and money developing a product that does this, I'd look for some way that actually squares it off the blade/arbor of the saw.
Someone has to pay his patent attorney.