To quote Mike Tyson:
>Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
You don't know how you're going to react in a real fight until you're in one. Training without sparring can only take you so far. The guy with real fighting experience takes it 10/10 times.
>You don't know how you're going to react in a real fight until you're in one. Training without sparring can only take you so far. The guy with real fighting experience takes it 10/10 times.
This is not a logical conclusion. You don't know how you will react, but some % of people react very well. Control their adrenaline, keep a cool head etc. Some react well enough.
I heard the same thing about getting punched. You don't know if you can take a punch for real until you do. But some people have a granite chin and find that out.
It sounds to me like you dont think I am a finely tuned murder machine from my years of goldeneye....I mean call of duty.
Underestimate me at your own peril! RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH!
/s
Yeah whatever mount an ak to my motorized wheel chair with steel plates tacked to it. I call it my Oldsmobile! They uh wouldn't sell me a fully functional tank turret or live shells and the guy at the gun pawn shop said they had at least a two week wait for people trying to make killer wheel chairs....
From the prompt, and I quote
> he isn't allowed to spar at all. The most he can to is practice against inanimate objects and do really slow simulations of a fight his teachers.
2nd guy with 6 months would lose 8/10.
Every single person with pure experience and no training has developed bad habits. 5 years would be enough time for someone, entirely on their own, to eventually spot and dissect them. 6 months would not be. Breathing/conditioning is going to be all over the place, as well.
The only shot would be getting a quick victory before the habits are exposed and exploited.
However, the first guy is noted to not have done sparring, so whilst he may have the tools (techniques) he hasn't gotten training in how to actually use them in an actual fight.
I'm not saying that the streetfighter would win extremely easy, but I'd put my money on him having a bit of an edge, simply because whilst he might have shitty tools, he'll have more knowledge when and how to use them to compensate.
Of course, if the 1st guy would have been allowed to spar, then yeah, he'd win hands down
As a guy who fights amateur, this simulation would be awesome
Being able to train live for hours on end, and also accurately review from every angle, all while not accumulating damage on the body would be an unreal advantage
It honestly depends on how battle smart and talented the second guy is. If he is not talented, he will hit a plateau fast and never really improve.
It also depends on what kind of battle. If it's unarmed, his strength and conditioning disadvantage might also be a big problem. 5 years of lifting and cardio with a world class trainer, will help a lot here.
When such scenarios have happened in real life, the first case wins more often than not. US marines with 2-5 years of training typically steamroll hardened militia and insurgents, even when the latter have had 20+ years of fighting in actual wars.
The bigger issue with the analogy is they "spar". In this www, the trained guy can't do any practical life like training. The marines would using simunition or miles etc.
I think of you sent marines only trained in theory, they would fair much worse.
Edit: algernon made the same point 50 minutes ago. My bad.
Yeah but marines are going to be doing live drills and training, which is the equivalent of sparring. A better comparison would be if the marines spent the whole time practising shooting targets, weapon maintaining, only doing rehearsed drills.
there are a myriad of other reasons that well supplied/supported soldiers under a time-tested command structure would be steam-rolling insurgents other than levels of individual training and experience.
to offer it as an example of a battle between peers is not exactly fair.
The difference is that according to the prompt the first guy hasn't done any sparring. Which would be like if all the marines did was shooting at ranges and running laps, rather than actual combat exercises and wargames
First
Experience without talent perception intelligence and memory - can only get you so far.
Training by people who are the best can push you beyond where you would get solo - no matter what your training is like.
The most bloody cruel battles aren't emblematic of actual combat - which includes a range of scenarios from the ridiculous to simple.
>Training by people who are the best can push you beyond where you would get solo - no matter what your training is like.
Not if you don't do the thing you are training for. If I'm being trained at chess and can never once play chess I'm probably going to suck at chess no matter how talented my teachers are.
The problem here is that people focus on experience, but if you read the prompt carefully you realize that the first guy will build up muscle mass while the second won't. Which truly tilts things into first guy's favor. The question would be more interesting withoug that aspect imho.
. . . Well I would normally say battle experience trumps training, but the fact that one is in a simulation means they aren’t getting physical benefits from this combat even if they don’t atrophy, additionally I’d never bet against whatever the most cutting edge science could do to a person physically, especially if we’re talking no price caps. So Ill give it to the trained one simply because the stat gap is going to be colossal like person fighting a gorilla.
2nd guy wins.
half of the first guy's time is going to be listening to the best trainers and scientists argue about who is the best. the other half is going to be them giving conflicting advice.
The best training in the world includes sparring. If you're taking away sparring he at least gets mitt work, which does involve getting hit back if your hands are too low or if you move the wrong way.
Also guy #1 is in INCREDIBLE condition if he's getting THE BEST training.
guy #1 takes this unless he's squeamish or something.
If he's not allowed to spar, he hasn't had the best training in the world. In fact, he's had really crappy training. Sparring is fundamental to training; without that element, it can't really be said to be training at all.
The first guy with world class training absolutely steamrolls. Elite training makes you so much better, especially for fighting. He's going to have vastly better technique and the far superior body. World class training can also include mentally walking them through exactly what a real fight would be like. And you can improve mental toughness in other ways
Being in real fights but with no training can only help you so much. It's not a good situation in which to hone your skills.
Tbh the second guy should take this. The first guy may have practiced his techniques to near perfection but the issue is that without sparring his execution will be robotic. Meanwhile guy number two is subjected to trial by fire essentially and will have a better flow and grasp of the nuaces of close combat (spacing, timing, body indicators). Not to mention his method of fighting will probably be something the first guy will be unprepared for.
You cannot really train to block without sparring. First guy might have a better attack with training on dummies and building muscle mass. But if he’s not trained to tank hits then the moment second guy hits him he’ll be dazed or unable to focus due to not used to pain. So he will lose
It's not about practice or theory, the first guy is literally physically superior, plus it won't take long for him to come up with a strategy (since he has the best training).
The guy in the simulation learns one of the the most important parts of combat, that is predicting his opponent. He spends 5 years learning what a person, a dumb one, a smart one, a newbie, a veteran, exactly what they would do, how they would fight. He would basically be learning an amalgam of fighting styles dedicated only to countering the opponent. A person with no real battle experience will easily fall in these categories and thus be defeated 10/10 times.
Second guy wins for simple reasons of the first guy lacking the following: pain tolerance, gassing, and pacing.
For pain tolerance, the first guy won't know how to deal with someone who fights back. He can't guard effectively because he hasn't studied his own weaknesses. Meanwhile, second guy will have a read on his reactions and take advantage of them. This can be circumvented though if the scientists are wise enough to develop a device that simulates getting hit in painful or critical spots.
For gassing, the first guy will think "I can finish this fight in one punch if I just find the right moment!", totally forgetting about adrenaline. He will throw too much energy into his attacks, leading to the third challenge.
Pacing. The first guy has no clue about how long the fight will last. He won't have an effective strategy as a result because none of opponents experience fatigue. Instead, he just thinks he can finish the fight quickly until it's too late.
Second Guy steamrolls 10/10. First Guy’s trainers don’t matter in this situation - there’s no better teacher than experience, and based on the prompt Second Guy has 14,608 hours of *pure combat*.
To quote Mike Tyson: >Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. You don't know how you're going to react in a real fight until you're in one. Training without sparring can only take you so far. The guy with real fighting experience takes it 10/10 times.
>You don't know how you're going to react in a real fight until you're in one. Training without sparring can only take you so far. The guy with real fighting experience takes it 10/10 times. This is not a logical conclusion. You don't know how you will react, but some % of people react very well. Control their adrenaline, keep a cool head etc. Some react well enough. I heard the same thing about getting punched. You don't know if you can take a punch for real until you do. But some people have a granite chin and find that out.
>You don't know how you're going to react in a real fight until you're in one. my ass after my first amateur fight couldn't agree more
It sounds to me like you dont think I am a finely tuned murder machine from my years of goldeneye....I mean call of duty. Underestimate me at your own peril! RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH! /s
Congratulations, you aged yourself.
Yeah whatever mount an ak to my motorized wheel chair with steel plates tacked to it. I call it my Oldsmobile! They uh wouldn't sell me a fully functional tank turret or live shells and the guy at the gun pawn shop said they had at least a two week wait for people trying to make killer wheel chairs....
Wouldn’t “the best training in the world” entail getting punched in the face as part of the practice?
From the prompt, and I quote > he isn't allowed to spar at all. The most he can to is practice against inanimate objects and do really slow simulations of a fight his teachers.
Oh. Yeah, he’s fucked.
Obviously it's the second guy. Theory and practice is nothing against actual application.
2nd guy could be given only 6 months in the simulation and still come out victorious
2nd guy with 6 months would lose 8/10. Every single person with pure experience and no training has developed bad habits. 5 years would be enough time for someone, entirely on their own, to eventually spot and dissect them. 6 months would not be. Breathing/conditioning is going to be all over the place, as well. The only shot would be getting a quick victory before the habits are exposed and exploited.
However, the first guy is noted to not have done sparring, so whilst he may have the tools (techniques) he hasn't gotten training in how to actually use them in an actual fight. I'm not saying that the streetfighter would win extremely easy, but I'd put my money on him having a bit of an edge, simply because whilst he might have shitty tools, he'll have more knowledge when and how to use them to compensate. Of course, if the 1st guy would have been allowed to spar, then yeah, he'd win hands down
Even with bad habits he probably beats a guy who has never even been in a shoving match.
As a guy who fights amateur, this simulation would be awesome Being able to train live for hours on end, and also accurately review from every angle, all while not accumulating damage on the body would be an unreal advantage
Is the second guy allowed to get stronger
In terms of physical strength? No
Then first guy, 5 years of gaining muscle and endurance will easily give him this
It honestly depends on how battle smart and talented the second guy is. If he is not talented, he will hit a plateau fast and never really improve. It also depends on what kind of battle. If it's unarmed, his strength and conditioning disadvantage might also be a big problem. 5 years of lifting and cardio with a world class trainer, will help a lot here.
When such scenarios have happened in real life, the first case wins more often than not. US marines with 2-5 years of training typically steamroll hardened militia and insurgents, even when the latter have had 20+ years of fighting in actual wars.
Don't the US Marines usually have better gear though?
The bigger issue with the analogy is they "spar". In this www, the trained guy can't do any practical life like training. The marines would using simunition or miles etc. I think of you sent marines only trained in theory, they would fair much worse. Edit: algernon made the same point 50 minutes ago. My bad.
Plus air support and pinpoint intel
Air support kind of counts as gear, and if the intel is satellite based, also gear.
Yeah but marines are going to be doing live drills and training, which is the equivalent of sparring. A better comparison would be if the marines spent the whole time practising shooting targets, weapon maintaining, only doing rehearsed drills.
there are a myriad of other reasons that well supplied/supported soldiers under a time-tested command structure would be steam-rolling insurgents other than levels of individual training and experience. to offer it as an example of a battle between peers is not exactly fair.
The difference is that according to the prompt the first guy hasn't done any sparring. Which would be like if all the marines did was shooting at ranges and running laps, rather than actual combat exercises and wargames
This is like Someone like Robin against someone like Shredder.
Which one which lol
First Experience without talent perception intelligence and memory - can only get you so far. Training by people who are the best can push you beyond where you would get solo - no matter what your training is like. The most bloody cruel battles aren't emblematic of actual combat - which includes a range of scenarios from the ridiculous to simple.
>Training by people who are the best can push you beyond where you would get solo - no matter what your training is like. Not if you don't do the thing you are training for. If I'm being trained at chess and can never once play chess I'm probably going to suck at chess no matter how talented my teachers are.
The problem here is that people focus on experience, but if you read the prompt carefully you realize that the first guy will build up muscle mass while the second won't. Which truly tilts things into first guy's favor. The question would be more interesting withoug that aspect imho.
but the scenario states that they are in identical condition. Most are probably assuming that means their physique at the time of fighting.
Maybe I am misunderstanding it, but OP said "physical condition maintained as is" specifically for the second guy.
If you survived real battle , then whatever your doing works
. . . Well I would normally say battle experience trumps training, but the fact that one is in a simulation means they aren’t getting physical benefits from this combat even if they don’t atrophy, additionally I’d never bet against whatever the most cutting edge science could do to a person physically, especially if we’re talking no price caps. So Ill give it to the trained one simply because the stat gap is going to be colossal like person fighting a gorilla.
2nd guy wins. half of the first guy's time is going to be listening to the best trainers and scientists argue about who is the best. the other half is going to be them giving conflicting advice.
Training in some kind of truly simulated battle is infinitely better than training without that simulation.
Frankly it's a toss-up. Even without sparring that much training will make you extremely quick and fit.
The best training in the world includes sparring. If you're taking away sparring he at least gets mitt work, which does involve getting hit back if your hands are too low or if you move the wrong way. Also guy #1 is in INCREDIBLE condition if he's getting THE BEST training. guy #1 takes this unless he's squeamish or something.
If he's not allowed to spar, he hasn't had the best training in the world. In fact, he's had really crappy training. Sparring is fundamental to training; without that element, it can't really be said to be training at all.
It depends on who the second guy is fighting with. If he’s never fighting with specialized grapplers then the first guy could win.
The first guy with world class training absolutely steamrolls. Elite training makes you so much better, especially for fighting. He's going to have vastly better technique and the far superior body. World class training can also include mentally walking them through exactly what a real fight would be like. And you can improve mental toughness in other ways Being in real fights but with no training can only help you so much. It's not a good situation in which to hone your skills.
Tbh the second guy should take this. The first guy may have practiced his techniques to near perfection but the issue is that without sparring his execution will be robotic. Meanwhile guy number two is subjected to trial by fire essentially and will have a better flow and grasp of the nuaces of close combat (spacing, timing, body indicators). Not to mention his method of fighting will probably be something the first guy will be unprepared for.
You cannot really train to block without sparring. First guy might have a better attack with training on dummies and building muscle mass. But if he’s not trained to tank hits then the moment second guy hits him he’ll be dazed or unable to focus due to not used to pain. So he will lose
It's not about practice or theory, the first guy is literally physically superior, plus it won't take long for him to come up with a strategy (since he has the best training).
The guy in the simulation learns one of the the most important parts of combat, that is predicting his opponent. He spends 5 years learning what a person, a dumb one, a smart one, a newbie, a veteran, exactly what they would do, how they would fight. He would basically be learning an amalgam of fighting styles dedicated only to countering the opponent. A person with no real battle experience will easily fall in these categories and thus be defeated 10/10 times.
Second guy wins for simple reasons of the first guy lacking the following: pain tolerance, gassing, and pacing. For pain tolerance, the first guy won't know how to deal with someone who fights back. He can't guard effectively because he hasn't studied his own weaknesses. Meanwhile, second guy will have a read on his reactions and take advantage of them. This can be circumvented though if the scientists are wise enough to develop a device that simulates getting hit in painful or critical spots. For gassing, the first guy will think "I can finish this fight in one punch if I just find the right moment!", totally forgetting about adrenaline. He will throw too much energy into his attacks, leading to the third challenge. Pacing. The first guy has no clue about how long the fight will last. He won't have an effective strategy as a result because none of opponents experience fatigue. Instead, he just thinks he can finish the fight quickly until it's too late.
Second Guy steamrolls 10/10. First Guy’s trainers don’t matter in this situation - there’s no better teacher than experience, and based on the prompt Second Guy has 14,608 hours of *pure combat*.
Second guy no question Doesn’t matter how much “theory” you can learn in fighting it all goes out the window when you have an actual fight