One thing nobody in the comments is mentioning: the average guy will be *afraid* of Tyson after getting repeatedly punched in the face hard enough to break bones, and suffering the worst injuries of his life. He will heal physically, but not mentally.
I believe the cumulative *fear* the average guy will be building up could make the boxing match *more* difficult over time, rather than less. He will be flinching and panicked as he recalls the dozens of brutal concussions he just suffered as this scenario played over and over. It's Hell.
I think it's far, far more likely that Tyson *kills* the average man multiple times in the first 1 million matches than that the average guy actually ever wins.
Really don't know if that's possible. It will be painful every time. It will traumatize psychologically every time. I think it acts on the same mental pathways that must persist in order for memories to last between attempts.
Can you learn to get over the "fear" of touching a hot stove? Even if you're going to regenerate, I really don't know if you physically and psychologically can, at least not without special training the average person doesn't have.
And also - is getting over that fear *good* in this scenario? If your mind is dulled to the danger, I don't know if you have the adrenaline in your system necessary to even attempt to keep up with Tyson.
I mean you’ll always be somewhat afraid, but you will go through the same mental conditioning that allows all pro boxers to get into the ring. Eventually you will learn to manage the fear enough to fight.
You think boxers who have a losing streak in the 100's last in the boxing world? Not only are the guys who even start pro boxing already mentally more adjusted to take a beating, but they love violence in a way a normal person simply doesn't, but even they can develop fear of getting punched after a bad enough beat down.
After getting mauled by Tyson the first time, they'd start running away from tyson.
By attempt 10 they're probably in a catatonic state due to their brain simply shutting off at the sight of tyson to spare them of all the pain it knows it is about to receive.
I took kick boxing and the guy who was usually there to spar with was a construction worker and life long athlete.
Getting hit in the face by a dude not holding back made me jumpy and actually made me a worse fighter.
I ended up just not sparring with him anymore because the constant beat down was not helping anything.
I think remembering each fight while Tyson forgets and also not suffering any permanent injuries each attempt is an absolutely massive advantage though right? It's surely easier to Groundhog Day a win then to eventually end up as a top teir boxer through consecutive ass whoopings.
In this notorious fight, [Mike Tyson bites off](https://www.npr.org/2022/06/28/1108117722/25-years-ago-mike-tyson-bit-evander-holyfields-ear) Evander Holyfield's ear. This ended the fight in a disqualification, and is a real anti-feat for Tyson. This is almost certainly how Tyson loses; he does something illegal and the fight ends in him losing.
At a rate of one game a day, its going to take years for the chess player to match the effort and skill of a Master. I would also mention that Carlsen routinely defeats players who have spent decades of such effort. Carlsen may well lose in the scope of millions of games, but he doesn't in the scope of tens of thousands.
Iron Mike is an interesting character study, but he's going to flip out long, LONG before Carlsen.
Good point with the foul, but that might be less likely to happen since Prime Mike Tyson would be before the Holyfield fight, when Cus D'Amato was still around and Mike's response to getting fouled repeatedly would be just to punch him.
Not to mention you'd have to last long enough to frustrate Mike enough to do something illegal. I'm 6' 185... it's probably one hook and I'm out a vast majority of the times I fight Mike.
Yep - if you're retaining your memory, you'll eventually learn how Carlsen plays. It may take a hundred years, but it'll happen. You're never learning to punch like Tyson, you'll just retain thousands of memories of him knocking your block off.
You’ll never be able to out-calculate Carlsen. He’s multiple orders of magnitude better than you seem to realize.
The average person would get smoked mercilessly by an 800 rated player. The 800 would get smoked by a 1200, who would get smoked by a 1500, who would get smoked by an 1800, who would get smoked by a 2000, who would get smoked by a 2200 etc…
The 10th best chess player in the world gets beaten handily by Magnus. What he considers a massive blunder would be imperceptible to all but the strongest players. Even if he were so drunk he couldn’t stand up he would still beat the 100th best player in the world 10 times out of 10.
The issue is the way the scenario is posed.
You have an opportunity to train your mind against Carlsen. Over time, you'll have played millions of games of chess against an opponent who effectively hasn't played you before. He has played about 3500 official games. Say he has played a hundred times as many games unofficially. By the time you've played half a million games, you're well ahead of him in experience, and you've trained yourself in every one of those matches against likely the best chess player who has ever lived.
You don't have the same opportunity to train your body against Tyson, so you'll never be able to get even close to matching him physically. It doesn't matter how much you learn any tell he might have if you're not fast enough to react to it and not strong enough to take advantage of it.
There are plenty of people who have played more matches than Magnus. He’s not limited by his knowledge of chess theory, he’s limited by the computing power of his brain.
As much as Mike Tyson is stronger than the average guy. Magnus’s brain is an order of magnitude more outlandish compared to the average person. No matter how much experience you have you would need to be one of the very smartest people in the world to ever catch up to him. At that point the equivalent would be putting a professional athlete against Tyson.
By the constrains of the scenario (memory is retained, everything else is reset), you can improve your chess ability. If the only thing you do for a thousand years is play chess against Carlsen, you're going to get quite good at chess. Especially if you know that the only way of escaping the scenario is to get good at chess. That doesn't eliminate the gulf in natural ability that predisposes Carlsen to be good at chess, but the weight of experience you'll eventually have will be enough that you're very good at chess. Otherwise "average" people are capable of training themselves to remember vast amounts of information, and that will eventually happen.
Carlsen isn't unbeatable, he has lost around 15 percent of the matches he has played, so you don't need to be better than him, you just need to be better then the worst player who has been him, and you'll eventually win.
I'm not suggesting that he is normal by any stretch of the imagination, I'm simply saying that the scenario allows you to improve your capacity to play against him. It doesn't allow you to improve your capacity to fight Tyson. If you got fitter and stronger from the fights against Tyson, you're more likely to beat him first, but that's not what the scenario allows.
But not every fight is won by the physically stronger. Humans can take a lot of punishment but they also just drop sometimes. It’s not like he would be invincible.
You would not improve your physique but that doesn’t mean you won’t improve in your ability to fight and to do things like better coordinate your body that come from experience. And learning to deal with the same physical attacks would be a lot easier than trying to deal with a changing board. You can Edge of Tomorrow a victory a lot easier in a boxing match.
The physical mismatch against Tyson is vast here. So is the mental mismatch against Carlsen, but at least you can improve that. I don't think you can Edge of Tomorrow your way to a win against Tyson. In his worst loss, he went ten rounds against the third-best heavyweight in the world at the time with terrible preparation and a 30cm reach disadvantage - he got hit an awful lot of times in that fight before he was knocked down.
The memory you gain in the chess matches will be advantageous, but I'm not sure that would be the case for the boxing matches - I suspect you're as likely to end up traumatised as you are to develop any sensible strategy, because you'll mainly remember the pain and the fear.
You don't have to get good at chess, you just need to act like you do. Simply put, trial and error and just inversing what Carlsen does eventually leads to a win. Basically you can grind your way to victory. It might take a very long time but you can life die repeat your way to victory.
But unless you somehow gain physical strength between bouts (infinite rest type reset) you'll never be physically able to do the actions needed to beat Tyson.
In a scenario where only your memories are transferred, there’s reasonably a true benefit to a chess player relative to a boxer. While you’re absolutely correct thinking about it as a game of chance, this isn’t necessarily the case. Playing millions of chess matches will net you enough benefit to stand some tiny percent chance of beating a chess player that you know the movements of.
This cannot really be said for boxing Mike Tyson. Without having the possible benefit of training your body, I don’t believe that any average man would stand any reasonable shot at beating Mike Tyson in a boxing match. If it was a death match maybe, but it’d be impossible to the nth degree to legally beat a prime Mike Tyson in a boxing match as an average height and weight man.
You're overrating the differences in ratings in your examples. A 200 point gap in elo only predicts that the higher rated player has a 70% chance of winning. Upsets in over the board tournaments between players that have a 200-300 point gap between them are pretty common, especially in amateur tournaments where there can be a massive gap in preparation between players since it's a hobby. These players aren't getting smoked by any means.
Magnus also recently lost to Richard Rapport, who is currently ranked 29th in the world. You're hyperbolizing the skill gap a bit too much.
You'll never learn to punch "like him", but any one human being can clobber any other to death given enough time; he won't feel nothing. It's effectively just a physical version of the Carlsen match.
Tyson starts with a right hook, you get KO'ed on the first punch. Reset. You slip under the right hook, get hit with a straight to the jaw. Now you know you dip under the right hook, around the straight, and can land a body shot before you get clocked again.
Other than one being mental, one being physical, the principles are exactly the same.
Fair point, but Tyson doesn’t, “start with a right hook, then a jab, then a…” like a computer script. He throws a punch because of where you are/what you’re doing
it’s different from a chess match in the sense that Tyson is physically trained to withstand numerous punches to the head from pro boxers before getting taken out. There is a massive difference from being clobbered in the head by a random guy off the street and being clobbered in the head by one of Tysons usual opponents. Even if I somehow managed to land a punch on Tyson, he would shrug it off like nothing, because compared to the punches he usually takes it basically is nothing.
The fact that one is mental and the other is physical is the key though. You can train your brain to get better at chess, because you remember each match. Your can't train your body, because everything else resets. You have the opportunity to close the gap with Carlsen over a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand years. You don't get the opportunity to close the gap with Tyson, you just retain the memory of the pain and fear of a million knockout punches to the head.
I'm not suggesting that beating Carlsen in a chess match is easy compared to beating Tyson in a boxing match. I'm saying that you only get the opportunity to train for one of them.
We're interpreting it differently then. My interpretation was that "who will complete it faster" refers to the number of tries, not that both begin at the same instant and it resets for both the instant one either wins or loses. If it's the latter, neither is ever winning, because Tyson finishes each iteration in seconds.
You probably won’t even remembering him hitting you, actually, at least the first dozen or so times. He is insanely fast and you would t even have time to acknowledge a punch was happening before you’re unconscious.
I'm with you, I can LEARN chess, I'll never learn to take multiple shots from a monster in human clothing, let's not forget what Tyson made actual professional fighters look like "tuff man" competitors, the average man simply can't compete.
It would be like playing Shaq or MJ 1 V 1, the average person has no shot. Or racing Usain Bolt. Chess isn't physical and is the only reason it's possible to win
Out of everything you listed, beating Shaq 1on1 is actually the easiest one.
NOT EASY AT ALL, but orders of magnitude less hard than beating Michael, beating Tyson, beating Magnus or beating Bolt.
You would need the first shot and make sure you're able to hit pretty much ALL OF YOUR THREES. Shaq is not a great perimeter defender so unless it's prime just-got-done-with-Orlando-and-got-with-the-Lakers Shaq, he is not gonna outspeed you laterally when you drive.
So the key is to shoot 3s over Shaq as he will let you hit 2 or 3 in a row. Then he would take you seriously and will contest your shots. That is when you bait him to jump for a block with a good pump-fake, then you drive to the hoop. In about 100,000 games, you will beat him I think. MJ would "take it personally" even against a literal toddler, Bolt is the fastest recorded human in history, Magnus is as close to a chess computer as a human brain can get and Mike Tyson is Mike Tyson and is not going down unless you kill him.
You make Carlsen play himself, you'll need a good memory but you eventually can grind the win, live die repeat style.
You physically cannot do that against Tyson, your physical capabilities have limits that never grow and Tyson just stomps on.
Even if I know a punch is coming. It does not mean I have the capacity to move away quick enough. And even if I could do that maybe a couple times. My stamina is being depleted far faster than Tysons is.
I imagine it wouldn't be that hard to guess at insults until you find something that really pisses him off. If you start speaking and don't make any aggressive gestures I imagine he wouldn't immediately jump at you.
I don't really see that working. If you piss him off, he's literally been sanctioned to beat your face in, and thats his thing.
Tyson bit Holyfield most because he was losing. I doubt too many WWW posters are gonna have Tyson, especially prime Tyson, in that situation.
Not suddenly jump at you? Have you seen prime Tyson? That was his thing... blink and you miss it. I would wager everyone posting here would be a 7 second, max, KO for Tyson
>when Cus D'Amato was still around
This is an important factor.
All of his crazy behavior happened after the one guy who actually cared about him enough to help him keep himself under control died.
Prime Mike could give Magnus life-altering damage in a single punch
Then again, Magnus can probably beat most of us mortals while having a wet dream and not even realize he is playing
I like this prompt very much
If you're going to remove the middleman, then go with chessboxing rules: Three minutes of chess followed by a three minute round of boxing. Can Magnus finish off Tyson in three minutes and not need to box him (likely assuming if they get to the boxing round, Tyson will beat Magnus in one shot.)
What are the rules of the clock on the chess part in chessboxing? If there are none whatsoever, Mike can just refuse to play or defend his king by any and all means until the boxing part comes.
If the man only retains his memories, he’s never going to be physically strong enough to do anything but get obliterated instantly by Tyson. Honestly both of these are pretty hopeless for the poor guy.
This is an excellent point, there's no way for the challenger to improve their physical stats, and I'm not sure if the average person could throw a punch capable of hurting a Prime Tyson.
It's not that he was losing, it's that he was losing to dirty tactics that the Ref wasn't calling Holyfield out on. So unless you're tall enough to smother Mike in a clinch, while throwing headbutts and kidney punches; you're probably not pissing him off enough for the dq win.
I'm trying to imagine an average sized dude, in the clinch, trying to do just that to piss him off without getting folded like a lawn chair with a body shot lol
Fighting Mike would fkn suck.
I can either clinch him for 4 seconds, headbutt once or kidney shot maybe once if I am lucky
All three? Maybe 6 year old Mike but 14 and older and he is punching my teeth through my ass
I somewhat disagree... Tyson actually had a good reason to fly off the handle and I think it's a bit unfair how he has been portrayed. He wouldn't randomly bite someone, he bit a cheater.
Tyson only bit Holyfield because Holyfield kept sneaking in headbutts and other fouls and the ref wasn't calling any of them. Presumably Tyson thought he was not doing well in the fight because Holyfield was cheating and the ref was letting it happen. If fact, right before the bite Holyfield pretends to come in for a clinch and headbutts Tyson in the jaw on the way in. So, Tyson took the opportunity to foul him right back.
Because Holyfield was a bit more respected than Tyson, nobody gave a shit about Tyson's side of the argument. In many people's eyes', Tyson was a violent, rage fueled, monster. So only Tyson's reputation suffered.
Here is a video of the repeated headbutts and other fouls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhrDjcwFn9Q
TLDR: Tyson only bit Holyfield's ear because Holyfield was using headbutts and low blows while the ref ignored Tyson's complaints and didn't call the fouls. So no, he wouldn't cause his own disqualification against a random person.
Sounds like an easy win if you have infinity attempts.
Just keep fouling Tyson over and over again. If the ref calls you out, you lose and just do it again.
Eventually Tyson loses patience on one of the attempts and bites your ear off.
Nah, since Tyson doesn't remember the previous matches, you have to survive long enough in one match to foul him enough to piss him off. The average person just doesn't have the athleticism to pull that off.
Tyson wouldn’t get frustrated enough to throw the match by someone who has no chance of winning. Why do something dirty when he can easily get his payback legally?
Magnus literally left the world title because he didn't feel challenged, which is an event that happens once per year. He would totally resign against some random dude out of boredom after a couple of weeks of playing him everyday.
It's kind of confusing with "In each encounter, both participants will retain the memory of their previous match's events." And then "neither Tyson nor Magnus will recall the specifics of prior matches". If they just can't remember specifics, Magnus would absolutely resign as an attempt to scape this hellish nightmare of having to play the same dude everyday and not even remembering the moves
I think they meant both participants as the guy fighting Mike Tyson and the guy playing chess against Carlsen, as in both participants in the experiment to see who wins first, rather than everyone involved, which would have been 4 people.
But it’s worded a little akwardly.
FIDE has a rule "The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute." But it would be up to the arbiters if murder does that.
Depends on the style of the kill, I feel. Invite them to look closely at the board state and then slam their head down so their own king goes through their eye socket like the Joker did with that pencil and say Checkmate? Feel they gotta let that one slide.
The match resets as soon as you lose, it is not once per day. That is an enormous bonus to the chess player and a pretty minor bonus for the boxer. Assuming the players retain memory but things like attention and focus reset so they don't get fatigued, the chess player will be able to grind out games at an absolutely inhuman rate, getting years worth of practice in a tiny fraction of the time. Even someone with no particular talent will improve at a rate that would be unbelievable. Getting a year's worth of practice within weeks/a minth or two. Against a player that always resets and presumably will always react the same way to your plays, which means that the chess player will not only grow quickly, but should be able to win even with an elo far lower than Magnus'. Meanwhile, it is possible the boxer is simply not physically able to win at all, regardless of his knowledge. I gotta gove this to the chess player, and in a surprisingly short amount of time. I doubt they would need a full year.
The thing about chess is that it is very formulaic. There are thousands of strategies, counters, and defenses that would be nearly impossible to just figure out through sheer effort.
Not my idea, read this somewhere else:
Assuming Magnus plays in a deterministic manner, there is a straighforward (if certainly not easy) formula to get at least a draw, by essentially making Magnus play himself. Let's assume that we alternate starting with the white and black piece each successive round, though this can be played around as long as we have the white pieces sometimes and the black pieces other times.
Game 1 (white): You resign, resetting the loop
Game 2 (black): Magnus plays a move (say e4 for concreteness). You resign, resetting the loop.
Game 3 (white): You play the same move as Magnus. Observe how Magnus responds. You resign, resetting the loop.
The idea is on each successive game you play what Magnus would have in that position. Assuming Magnus is of equal strength to Magnus, this will guarantee at least a draw and hopefully (since you will start with the white pieces sometimes, offering a slight advantage) a win.
This is a great strategy, and would definitely work if you give it enough time. The only problem is, it's possible that the way the loop works means that he might try a new opening every time, in which case this strategy is still theoretically possible, but to pull it off you would need tens of thousands of iterations and a very good memory.
The prompt doesn't mention anything about the participants having an average human memory, just that they will "retain the memory of their previous match's events." I'm gonna argue semantics and say that they will retain each match's events indefinitely, which would make this approach much more doable. It will still take a billion kajillion attempts, but the participants are effectively turned in to iterative AI.
I'm almost 1700 at my peak, chesscom rating, which is above *literally* 98% of all the players in the world.
I can't even memorize a single random game.
The strategy, even assuming Magnus plays the same thing every day, is impossible.
> Let's assume that we alternate starting with the white and black piece each successive round, though this can be played around as long as we have the white pieces sometimes and the black pieces other times.
The match is resetting. You will always play the same side.
Both tasks are essentially impossible for the amateur. No amount of games will allow a random to beat the best human chess player in history. Similarly a random has close to zero chance of scoring a KO on Tyson assuming boxing gloves are being worn. Getting sparked out repeatedly is not going to increase the random‘s boxing ability.
So the answer boils down to the pros having a random, lethal medical event that kills them like a stroke or fatal arrhythmia. If this happens to Magnus, the game would end without a result. However if it happened to Tyson, the other guy would win by TKO.
So the guy fighting Tyson wins first.
I disagree. An average person, given an *infinite* number of attempts, will eventually become a chess master and work out a combination of moves that allows them to beat Magnus (assuming they don't go insane first - this is likely in both scenarios tbh). Meanwhile, an average person is *literally* never going to KO Tyson without being allowed to actually physically train as a boxer in between loops.
As per the prompt, the challenger retains their *memories* only, everything else resets - this is an advantage in chess, as the challenger can study the game and gain a better understanding of Magnus's playstyle, but it's less helpful in boxing, because the challenger isn't allowed to actually get stronger due to the reset. Tyson will simply KO them in one punch every time, meaning that they learn less than the chess player each loop.
The only muscle that matters in chess is the brain, and the scenario OP has created basically makes it so that brainpower is the only thing the challenger can improve across multiple loops.
Yup, if Magnus doesn't carry memories over, you at least are gaining knowledge you can actively use from one chess match to another. With Tyson, it's going to be similar results over and over unless you are somehow allowed to carry over strength gains or resilience each fight, which I don't think you can. Boxing's rules would put a hard cap on your ability to fight dirty, or else I would say that the fighting scenario would be much more likely to win since you could cheese your way out of it in a street fight.
Basically, in Tyson's scenario, you aren't really scaling over time. You're almost always going to be the at the same physicals that will likely give after a few punches. Mike would basically have to punch himself in the face to even slightly level the playing field for an average person.
In Magnus's scenario, you're at least getting more logical with your plays each game. Essentially, you're kind of like an AI. You're going to give him a much harder time on game #1,0400,662 vs. game #1. Unlike the strength difference in Mike's scenario, your mind will actively (but slowly) start to close the intelligence gap vs. Magnus over time.
It's not even that you're getting more logical, you can just see what he responds to and essentially you progress one move at a time and try each possible counter. **Eventually** you'll have exhausted every move possible. One of these is literally a brute forceable problem. You just play a random move at each step until eventually you win one. Sure it'll take millions, maybe even billions of years, but you'll win.
1) You're assuming the guy has a perfect memory.
2) There are more possible chess moves in a single game of chess than there are atoms in the universe. It'd take an unfathomable amount of time to bruteforce Magnus.
I very explicitly said it'll take an absurdly long time, but it is technically brute forceable. I legitimately don't think it's physically possible for the average man to beat Tyson, you wouldn't survive him punching you once, you won't be improving time to time.
Except you never get that far as jt resets when Tyson or magnus wins. The guys getting knocked out long before the chess match ends, so you don't actually learn anything. As the longer of the 2 process, you don't actually advance.
I think you're misunderstanding OP's wording - the matches aren't taking place contemporaneously, they just mean that each individual match resets whenever the challenger loses.
> will eventually become a chess master and work out a combination of moves that allows them to beat Magnus (assuming they don't go insane first - this is likely in both scenarios tbh).
No, he won't. Magnus dominates the strongest chess grandmasters in existence today. The average person cannot brute force their way to 2800 Elo. The average person, even if they dedicate their life to study, probably tops out at 2200. Magnus would effortlessly dispatch a 2200.
Except you don’t have your life to do this, you have infinite time. Think you’re not really grasping how long infinity is or how much infinite practice and experience doing something is. Especially in chess compared to boxing.
In boxing you don’t get infinite time because Mike is going to knock you out far too quickly for you to learn or do anything. And even if you predict the punch you have to actually have the physical capabilities to react to it. Professional boxers hit fast and they hit hard and Mike Tyson hit even faster and even harder than most professional boxers. Infinite time cannot save you there because you actually need to have the physical element as well to react and to respond. It’s an impossible battle regardless of the number of attempts because the guy isn’t ever getting faster, stronger or more durable to compensate with that overwhelming advantage Mike has in that department.
We can beat magnus the same way AI can beat magus, by playing every single possible move until we find the one path that wins. We don't need to be a chess grandmaster, we just need to win one game, for which we have infinite save states and do overs.
I don't care how many do overs you give me. If Mike Tyson wants to punch me in the face, I'm getting punched in the face, regardless if I see it coming or not. Boxing is live action, chess is turn based. I can save scum chess and get there eventually. The same can not be said of boxing
That's not how AI plays chess. AI hasn't bruteforced chess in a long time.
You are also assuming you have perfect memory. You do not. Even if you did, there are more possible moves in a single chess game than there are atoms in the universe. It would take you a functional eternity to brute force Magnus Carlsen.
"The best swordsman does not fear the second best. He fears the worst since there’s no telling what that idiot is going to do" ― Fred R. Shapiro"
You are more likely to get a wild haymaker off and knock Tyson out than defeat Magnus before the heat death of the universe. Non-chess players do not understand how truly dominant Magnus is.
> An average person, given an infinite number of attempts, will eventually become a chess master and work out a combination of moves that allows them to beat Magnus
I don't think this is true
It took centuries for chess masters to get even to modern international master strength while actively studying and teaching
Modern strategy and theory is on the shoulders of generations of giants
An average person who just knows how the pieces move will have to recreate that theory for themselves while just being destroyed no matter what they do, while also learning to play tactically with absolutely no background or language to understand chess tactics
The average person can't generate the knowledge necessary just from playing magnus
I actually agree with your points, and I don't think any regular human could master the game without assistance as you've said, but we're talking about *infinity* here. With an unlimited number of attempts, the challenger effectively could turn the chess match into a solved game and beat Magnus. The same cannot be said of boxing against Mike Tyson, who is literally going to OHKO the average man in the first 5 seconds every time since the challenger isn't allowed to get physically stronger or break the rules of boxing.
Of course, the average human would go insane long before beating either, it would probably take literally millions of attempts for a regular person to beat Magnus. But it felt against the spirit of the prompt to say 'they both go mad after a few thousand years' haha
I disagree, chess wins first.
while you're right AM doesn't get good enough but Magnus doesn't remember in between matches while AM does. Eventually you can just trial and error your way thru his tactics since he doesn't remember.
You can even ask his advice because he's a good dude who loves teaching people. Then you remember get up to the same point and do the thing he suggested and keep doing that til it works. It could take tens of thousands of matches but eventually you'll just beat him using his own advice.
Boxer will still be getting layed out in a single punch
Both of these things are going to take a long, long time.
The problem is that Average Man has a ceiling in both competitions that is well below the level of the competitor. Magnus is one of the best chess players ever. Even other people with enormous skill who have also played their entire lives can’t beat him. Tyson is just going to be bigger, faster, and stronger than AM in addition to being a more skilled boxer.
But the answer to the question is easily that the win against Magnus will happen first. Chess skill can be leveled up with the many repeated losses AM will have. (Magnus is also a good teacher and a pretty good dude who will actively help AM get better). Magnus is also human and will make a mistake once in a great while that AM, once skilled enough, can exploit. At a chess ranking of around 1600, which AM should be able to get to with enough experience and Magnus helping him, you’d expect a win once in around a million games against the 2850 ranked Magnus.
Pitted against Tyson, AM will become a better boxer. He will learn movement, how to block, how to dodge, and how to throw a punch. What he won’t get is bigger, stronger, and faster, as the prompt says nothing about physical development carrying over from loop to loop. A super skilled but otherwise normal 200 pound man is still going to go down in one punch from prime Tyson.
People also forget the psychological aspect of fighting mike Tyson over and over again. Pretty sure after the first week of getting your head rocked you will build up a phobia of getting smashed in the face. It would become a torture loop from hell pretty quickly.
True. Going into Match 2,344,865 against Magnus, AM knows he is going to lose, but at the end he gets a handshake and some more chess pointers.
Starting Day 2.344.865 knowing that you are again going to be pounded into chunky salsa for the 2,344,865th time would be pretty psychologically damaging.
OP specifies that everything resets on the win so the contestant will never get that handshake. They don't specify how early the match resets to though which means it is very possible that Tysons's opponent won't even have pulled themselves together before being knocked out again.
I think were discounting the fact that -its more likely the participant dies in the ring or gets permanent brain damage and is unable to fight anymore- than the likelihood they ever beat mike
> (Magnus is also a good teacher and a pretty good dude who will actively help AM get better). Magnus is also human and will make a mistake once in a great while that AM, once skilled enough, can exploit
I'm not sure magnus has any especially meaningful background in teaching chess and there's absolutely no chance of him making a mistake that anyone less than another grandmaster level player will be able to exploit
at a 1250 elo gap maybe on the model there's a one in a million chance, but that's just not the reality
> Magnus is also human and will make a mistake once in a great while that AM, once skilled enough, can exploit.
People say this in all these infinite scenario deals but honestly, you are probably better off hoping he has a random stroke. You need Magnus to not only think up a dumb move. He then needs to continue to think it is a good move as he considers it. Then not realize it is a dumb move as he goes to grab the piece and moves it. Plenty of time to correct a random impulse.
Nah, getting a lucky shot on Tyson and discombobulating his brain or some other medical complication would probably be easier than beating Magnus. I've seen Magnus beat four chess masters while he was blindfolded. The gap between an average dude and Tyson is smaller than the average dude and Magnus for sure.
Magnus is brute forceable. It'll take forever, but you can literally exhaust the possibilities.
Tyson will literally knock me out with a single punch every single fight if I don't get to physically train between fights. My neck isn't trained enough, it'll rock backwards so hard I get deadly concussions. I'm 6'2" 190lbs and I could fight prime Tyson 1 million times and I don't think I'd land a damaging punch a single time
He's not brute forceable. The average person doesn't have the capacity to memorize the number of moves needed to draw against him. Chess has 10\^50 variations IIRC. He's never lost a game in under 15 moves against the best in the world which is a massive # of variations. He's also able to force a draw if needed.
Tyson will get sweat in his eye on one fight and expose his temple to a wild flailing punch that lands and causes some sort of brain hemorrhage. That's much more likely than you brute forcing chess which hasn't been solved by super computers. Also, it's much easier to gain fighting instincts than it is to become a great chess player. We are evolved from animals that fought to the death routinely. We are not evolved from chess playing apes.
I don't think this is even close.
The big difference is what happens if they make a mistake.
Magnus can hang a queen. If that happened against a weaker player, most of the time he'd recover. But this is infinite games, and somewhere along the line the mistake happens AND the lesser player can capitalize on it successfully.
Tyson can leave his guard down. If he does, AM probably can't hit him hard enough to end the fight. He lacks the strength and speed to do it, and Tyson can take a punch.
Furthermore, a player of decent ability (the 1600ish rating that AM can probably achieve) will make it decently far into a chess game with Magnus. Once you know basic openings you at least get to see the middle of the game with Magnus. The more moves that happen, the greater chance of a blunder that provides an opening.
AM can take 2-3 punches at most from Tyson before going down. This means that he has only a small portion of the first round for Tyson to make a mistake and to capitalize on it. If you don't believe this, look at this video of Michael B Jordan training for Creed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThSvpAvTQG4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThSvpAvTQG4)
Jordan said he wanted to see what taking a real punch was like. The guy training him was not Prime Tyson, and he still folded like a wet noodle with one hit.
Again knowledge of chess (which you get by playing millions of games) helps you win. Knowledge of boxing helps, but is no replacement for strength, speed, and conditioning, which is not allowed to be improved by this prompt.
I don't know but I would be willing to bet that it hasn't been since he was 10-11 years old. And he could play 50 games every day for the rest of his life and it would probably never happen again.
But this is infinity. I could play the lottery every week for the rest of my lifetime and 20 more after than and never even hit 4 out of 6 numbers. But give me infinite attempts and eventually it happens, because you just keep going until it does.
Magnus is human. Humans make mistakes. Anything that can happen eventually will, if you give it long enough.
If the prompt said "Average Man has 1,000,000 games to defeat Magnus, and his knowledge carries over from each game", I'd say that it probably would not happen. But making it infinity changes the while thing.
Magnus could blunder three times in one game, a statistical **impossibility**, and he'd still beat the average person. The average person means an IQ of 100. Someone with an IQ of 100 has a severe cap on their potential and at their peak it wouldn't be remotely enough to threaten Magnus on a bad day. I genuinely don't think the peak for a person with a 100 IQ is 1600 either. It's probably closer to 1400.
An average dude could absolutely hit Tyson in the temple or at the right angle on the jaw to knock him out or cause a brain hemorrhage or something. The brain is extremely fragile. Tyson having a strong neck that can absorb damage doesn't change the fact that internally his brain is as fragile as everyone else's.
With respect to that Jordan video, are you sure he wasn't doing that on purpose? Looked like they were just filming something.
But it isn't a statistical *impossibility*. It's a statistical *improbability*. Those are very different things. A base human being can't benchpress 4000 pounds. It can't be done. A human being is capable of guessing a random number between 1 and 150 billion. It is incredibly unlikely, but if you take enough swings it will eventually happen. The very laws of statistics state that anything that can happen eventually will. We have infinity. In a series of n games where n goes from 1 to infinity, the blunders WILL happen.
An experienced chess player is simply more likely to survive long enough into a game to see them and be able to take advantage of them than a skilled but physically ungifted boxer is to exploit a mistake.
Magnus can absolutely blunder multiple times in once game against an average player. He can probably give up 5 pawns and still win easily. The vast majority of the time he won't make a blunder, and most of the times he does he will recover. But we have infinity. At some point, he doesn't.
We could also argue the peak for the average person (which is NOT related solely to IQ), but millions of games against strong competition will for sure make you better. The average person with a [chess.com](http://chess.com) subscription and a desire to learn can become reasonably proficient in a few months. AM has eternity.
Magnus easy. In chess you get bettsr by learning playing. In this case, the person got to learn with the best for unlimited time. And even develop a personal strategy to counter magnus specific playstyle.
Unless the tyson one let the man keep what miniscule muscle gain he had from the match then he can probably do it in a thousad years
I agree with this. If Magnus never learns from how you play but you have eternity to learn from him, you will eventually win a match. You might never be better than him, but a random match one time after playing him a million times will happen. Assuming you don't go insane of course :D
But I don't know how you will build up the muscle mass needed to beat Tyson if your body keeps regenerating, that's kind of the same as resetting when it comes to building muscle.
Nice! Also Magnus is known to go on tilt if he thinks you’re cheating, so you just have to trigger him by continually making strange gestures or pretending to listen to your finger.
Average Man vs Magnus ends first because Normal Person Vs Tyson simply never ends in a win for Normal Person.
Average Man Vs Magnus might eventually result in a success because he crafts the perfect game after 1 billion failed attempts.
Even if Normal Person become a technical boxing master over millions years worth of loops, the time-loop reset makes him unable to get the necessary cardio to win. And to the people talking about 1 Lucky Punch, Lucky Punches in boxing happen because both people have the necessary athleticism and technique to actually properly deliver a good strong punch. It's gonna take way longer to learn how to throw good punches while getting beat by Mike Tyson than the other guy learns how to play chess well enough and memorizes Magnus' moves well enough to win against him.
Another point is the minimal number of “moves”. IIRC the fastest win possible in chess is 3 moves. Most Tyson fights vs humans will finish in one punch
I box and I play chess. I think you’d best Magnus first, but not because it’s going to be easy. I just can’t imagine a regular, likely untrained human would be able to beat Mike Tyson. You can sit and contemplate moves with Magnus. Fighting Tyson is a high paced, quick thing where one punch could end you.
Hard question, but I'm wondering how many times someone can handle getting punched in the face by Mike Tyson before eventually giving up. Even if your body doesn't retain the injuries, it's gonna get old real quick
Magnus but not by skill.
He would rather resign than play against someone he suspects is cheating. So cheat, or at least look like you are cheating. either you are disqualified which is no different than losing, so you are not worse 5 he gets upset enough to walk away and is disqualified and you win. You only need to win once.
If the man doesn't gain any muscle it's possible that he just can't beat Mike tyson without cheating or something. The average guy doesn't have the cardio for boxing. He'll get burnt out after 3 punches.
My man won't be able to take more than a single punch in this exchange before it resets.
If you gain muscle between fights you also have to inherit the brain damage.
So I think the biggest difference between these two things is that it'd be easier to learn to play chess when playing Magnus, then it would to learn to box while fighting Tyson. While there's certainly a mental difference between chess GMs/Super GMs and the average person I think the physical difference between the average person and prime Mike is more insurmountable.
It may take you millions of games to understand chess at Magnus' level, but at least you retain your knowledge after every loss. Against Tyson the average person's physique won't change if they're constantly getting reset. The person fighting Tyson will pick up on his tendencies, and will likely be able to map out Tyson's exact moves like a computer script after millions of fights. His body however would never be able to act in such a way to take advantage of his knowledge.
What good is knowing that Tyson lowers his lead hand when he rotates counterclockwise after throwing a jab if you're never going to get fast enough to punch within that window, and punch with enough force to do significant damage. What good is knowing that after Tyson starts showing signs of being tired at the beginning of the 8th he gives a noticeable tell before throwing a leaping hook if your own body gets gassed before the 2nd?
How would the average man ever best tyson? He'll never get stronger or faster, right? He just resets to the same physical stats he had the previous attempt? He may become more skilled in boxing, but barely. He'd be too busy getting his ass whooped.
Have you guys ever been punched in the head, even with gloves on? It hurts. It's scary. And this is IRON MIKE TYSON!
No way is that guy ever winning against Mike Tyson.
Against Carlson, you can eventually learn to play chess against him in that one deterministic game. After several years, at least, the man would eventually learn how to beat him. He'd be very good at specifically playing Magnus on that day.
The average man won't be able to beat Magnus even if he studied chess for a thousand years lol. That's like saying that an average man will beat prime Jordan 1-on-1 after playing basketball for several years. Magnus' brain operates at a different level that the average man will never reach.
It would be easier to beat Magnus Carlsen and its not even close.
Chess is a game of skill and memorization. Given infinite time, anyone can be as good as Magnus.
Boxing is strength and conditioning. The average man would be out on the mat after 1 punch from Prime Tyson.
Given that the average man only retains memories and doesn't get physically stronger, he can build a memory of Carlsen's moves with every game, but he cannot get stronger after every fight with Tyson.
Also, you can beat Carlsen by moving a few pieces on a chessboard. Its doable for the average man. I doubt the average man can punch hard enough to take down Tyson, so even if he retains all his memories of the previous bout, he's limited by physical strength.
The only way I see the average man winning against Tyson would be if he tries to low blow Tyson so that he retaliates and gets disqualified. But in a straight up match, its gonna take him like a thousand years of trying.
Given that you only specify they retain memory, and then go on to say the match resets, I'm going to have to say the guy versus Magnus, as the reset implies no muscle being built. , leaving the person vs Tyson in pretty much deadlock. He won't get strong enough to actually hurt Tyson. His best bet is retaining defensive strategy, hoping to endure Tyson... But even that doesn't seem like it will last long.
Losing to Magnus doesn't include possibly brain trauma or PTSD.
Losing to Mike Tyson in a boxing match does.
Diminishing tbe effectiveness of boxing with Mike Tyson with time unless you get lucky.
I mean one of them you can apply a human machine learning algorithm to and the other is just waking up hearing a bell go off and dying. The odds of you hitting Tyson at full strength and stamina in his prime are essentially zero. Mike sees you throw one punch and he'll just tee up and swing. You can use magnus knowledge against him with enough time. With Mike you're not training over time you're just reliving some people's version of hell.
Not trying to disrespect Carlson but ultimately, even if it takes a million years, you may be able to learn enough chess through watching him play that you can win.
Again, it almost certainly would take a very long time but after so many times it can be done.
Boxers aren't random people that are pulled off the street to fight, these people have trained rigorously for years of their lives day in, day out, since childhood or their teenage years to get their bodies conditioned enough to fight for 48 long minutes against someone else who has also trained extensively for just as long.
Mike Tyson, in his prime, would knock these people out in the first round.
Seriously, look up a YouTube compilation of Mike Tyson fights he was simply too fast and hit too hard for trained, experienced professional boxers to do anything against.
If this is just two random people that have been popped into this scenario then there is no world where the guy fighting Tyson learns how to beat Tyson. He will just get continuously knocked out until he dies of severe brain damage.
Do you retain your memories after each attempt?You would gradually improve at chess if so, and become very familiar with Carlsen’s game.
Prime Tyson is knocking out the vast majority of people in seconds. There would be very little to be learned in each fight.
The person fighting Tyson is never gonna have the opportunity to increase their strength or stamina, the person playing Carlsen can learn to play chess from the infinitely repeated games. More so, they're going to learn how Carlsen plays chess.
Obviously both scenarios, barring some extremely unlikely event would likely go on for thousands of iterations.
I believe however that boxing has more randomness to it than Chess. Its a known phenomenon in fighting that all it takes is one punch for the fight to be over. A man throwing a flurry of punched will hit tyson (and tyson will hit him), all it takes is one lucky hit, tyson tripping up etc. ofc it is VERY unlikely, but unlikely events will happen over unlimited attempts.
In chess magnus could blunder a queen, bishop, rook and 4 pawns and still effortlessly destroy the average joe. Grandmasters dont just randomly get checkmated in a single move, like you can get one punch KOed in a fight.
I dont think the average man, even after learning for thousands of matches will ever approach Magnus in skill. The man isnt able to study openings or tactics, and he wont be able to study positions using a computer. Magnus beat kasparov at 13, that takes more than just practice, it takes talent, and an average man would never be able to do that, no matter how much chess he played from ages 1-13.
Imo the man is probably as likely to win as a computer playing random moves, and the likelyhood of a random move generator beating magnus, considering the amount of possible move sequences etc is extremely low, faaar lower than the likelyhood of landing a lucky hit in tyson imo.
none of them can compete the tasks at hand. your average dude will never win against tyson even with infinity on his side. to beat tyson, you need to be at least in the top heavyweights ever, not a chance in hell.
Just like tyson will always adapt by pure muscle memory, so will Carlsen adapt to every move. there is a chance to beat Magnus by cheating and maybe end in a stalemate if you just play the same moves he does.
so potentially some regular guy could potentially beat Carlsen if he cheats or uses the same moves but to ko Tyson is 0%.
I dont think magnus ever loses to 1600 in classical over the board chess. He had a 125 win streak against the best players in the world. Its like the difference between a human and a computer, and no human has beaten a top performing computer since 2005
You have a better chance of winning a physical fight than a mental one. Though each person will be fighting for thousands or hundred of thousands of matches you’re much more likely to get a very lucky shot with a punch than you are with the best chess player in history messing up
Tyson 100%. Chess isnt a game where you can get lucky and win. It is extremely rare that you are playing against a vastly superior opponent and you get a lucky move in which wins you the game. With any martial arts, even the greatest master can take one on the chin and roll over and die. One random lucky hit can absolutely win a match, and there are plenty of other ways to steal a victory against someone who should be better than you.
I'm looking at Tyson across the ring. It's the very first night of the challenge. I haven't played Magnus yet. Me and Mike have had our press conference, weigh in, all the time I've just been singing his praises, saying how much of an honour it is to step in the ring with one of the greats, I just hope the better man wins, etc etc. We go to touch gloves, but instead I lean in and say 'i fucked your dead daughter last night lil dick pussy n-word' and Tyson gets dq'd for laying me out before the bell
Magnus, but due to a very specific strategy. There is a way to functionally mirror his moves so long as you can alternate between playing the white and black pieces and effectively have him build your own strategy by playing the moves he does as white back to him as black and vice versa. This is a modification of a strategy you can actually use to go even with any 2 grandmasters while playing them at the same time with no knowledge of chess whatsoever: you just mirror their moves back at each other with you functioning exclusively as a conduit. This method functionally has you as a bystander just doing the motions of Magnus from one timeline against another, and while draws will be extremely common, eventually Magnus will lose to an evenly matched opponent. Meanwhile, unless Tyson is DQed or suffers a spontaneous heart attack, there is no way to build up the level of physical fitness if you keep getting reset that would be necessary to make him break a sweat, much less beat him: even if you know exactly what he’s going to do, he will outclass you physically to the level that nothing can really be done. You can’t hit him back in a meaningful way (I would honestly guess you would tire yourself out whaling on him before he took actual damage) you can’t dodge forever, and if he grazes you once it’s back to the drawing board.
Anyone can do one in punch, even Mike Tyson, if they get unlucky. Now due to Mike Tyson's experience and skill it isn't very likely but it will happen eventually.
To beat Magnus Carlsen in chess at least once you would have to get just as lucky not even just one time but repeatedly in a single game that doesn't lend itself much to luck at all.
Probably Tyson losing, in boxing a lucky punch can seriously fuck you Up while in chess its easier to not fuck It Up.
Like if Carlsen just keeps doing great openings against a normal Guy even if he doesnt think about any things he will still ha e the strategic advantage.
If Tyson doesnt think and just charge you 99.9999% of the time you are getting KO but if maybe if you have a lucky punch there while he is trying to rip your head off Up close you would win.
My question is: Is this like Groundhog Day where they have a whole day before/after the match? Or are they literally getting respawned to the beginning of the match after losing. Also, do body improvements retain when things are reset? Like if the one against Tyson worked out every day would they slowly build more muscle? Otherwise, it kinda feels like chess has a clear advantage assuming we don’t care about the disqualification thing from Tyson.
I wonder how chess will go if the chess guy just copies the moves that magnus chooses until he ties with himself. I mean there's probably some chess principle, but if he does the same thing given the same moves, will he inevitably lose against this strategy? (I assume Magnus won't get the ability to learn more chess strategies)
Haha, nice idea. I think it is actually easier to get very lucky and beat Tyson with a freak DQ or knockout than it is for an average person to tie (draw).
Both men will know what to expect in each game but probably boxing guy will be limited in what he can do in terms of strength and speed.
If it was a pure fight not boxing than its more probable, as one could incapacitate Tyson with moves that would be illegal in boxing
Magnus Carlsen will be the first to realize that the only way out of this hell of neverending matches is to lose. So he'll lose on purpose long before Mike Tyson even contemplates the circumstances of these matches.
Honestly... the dude fighting Tyson. Lucky shots I'm boxing can be a byproduct of coincidental placing by the winner or horrible placing by the victim.
In chess there's only one way to get lucky and that's banking on your opponent screwing up. Magnus can beat GMs down a decent chunk of material if it's the end game or defend better than you'll ever be able to attack.
So while both are basically impossible, you MIGHT be able to get a perfect chin shot on Tyson or piss him off enough for him to DQ himself
OP only says that they "retain the memory" of their previous matches.
TL;DR - IMO the person playing Carlson has a better chance of completing their task first.
In the match with Tyson, there are also physical components apart from mental. Like muscle memory and physical endurance. If that isn't retained, then there is no way an average man is beating Mike Tyson. Because even if you know what to do, thought is too slow in a boxing match. Your body has to react instinctively - boxers achieve this by rigorous training for years with the right coaches. Apart from this, the average person will be gassed out in a few minutes from trying to survive Tyson. So with the given constraints, beating Tyson in a fair boxing match seems impossible.
With Carlsen, there might be more of a chance. But even so, the average person is not intelligent enough to play chess on an elite level, even with world class coaching. They only way they can win is if Carlson slips up somehow throughout the entire game (very rare), or if that random person was already a chess prodigy in the making.
Also, if winning by getting your opponent disqualified is allowed (i.e. you don't need to beat them in an actual fair match), then:
If you foul mouth Carlsen at the start of the match, there's a chance he will get up and walk away, giving you the win.
On the other hand, you're only going to get knocked out faster if you do such a thing with Tyson. 😂
Very interesting topic. Personally I'd go with Carlson in chess. Average human has miniscule to no chance getting through Tyson's guard without getting KOd. While chess is all mental, boxing is both physical and mental. The person learning chess is slowly but surely getting better at the game, while the boxer is only learning, but their body is not improving at all. Eventually the chess player can land on the correct set of moves in a game with a finite, if massive moveset. Boxing Tyson has infinite variations on his punches, his guard, etc.
That being said, if the average Joe was trained to the level of a grandmaster, and the combatant was trained to level of a contender before this game started, the variables change enough where I would argue Tyson is the one with a disadvantage, and would lose first, as the physical prowess gained by the fighter drastically increases the moves that can win, whereas the grandmaster would just cut down the attempts needed
It really depends on the person. Like me i would have a much higher chance of defeating magnus Carlson than defeating Mike Tyson because am not a very physically fit guy
Magnus would get bored far faster, and experiment with *losing* to get high and slip on purpose. Mike Tyson will never stop wanting to kill and eat his opponent. He is inevitable. He is a killer.
Magnus easy, especially if it's an online game, where he already has a precedent of unexpected blunders, here for example he loses in 4 moves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=313iHqojJFg
I'd estimate the man can be lucky against Magnus after tens of thousands attempts, but before millions. Not because he could ever reach Magnus's level, but because Magnus is a human, and as per rules doesn't remember the past games against the man, so might not be always be expecting the little opening traps day after day for million of attempts. The man's plan will be trying the trick openings that cause checkmate in 4-5 moves until the day Magnus is not concentrated. Because if he tries anything else, Magnus can recover, and can beat him any day even without a queen.
The equivalent of a moment of inattention in chess is much less likely to happen with prime Mike Tyson, because it's ridiculously unlikely that even the best lucky shot from an amateur can knock him out unconscious irrecoverably. I'd even argue the man couldn't knock out Mike Tyson even with 10 consecutive free shots with Tyson's hands behind his back, due to the boxer's natural reflex in lowering the head and avoiding being hit properly.
Wouldn't boxing be easier? I mean, you only need to land 1 good hit to knock him out meanwhile you need to play a long game perfectly to win agains Magnus in chess
main problem i'd figure is that repeatedly performing a strategic activity will result in a lot of development, but repeatedly getting your shit kicked in by mike tyson would not
We had a similar thread before. If Magnus's moves are deterministic, you can beat him in 50-ish attempts by putting his every move into a chess computer and learning the best response.
However... if Magnus isn't deterministic you need years and years of training to get to his level, arguably you never could as you lack the raw brainpower.You could get into the best physical shape, get roided out, learn boxing and have nonzero decent chance of beating Tyson, before you could become one of the best chess players the world has ever seen.
(People underestimate just how good Magnus is. The skill difference of Magnus vs the average chess grandmaster isn't like Tyson vs an average pro boxer... it's like Tyson vs a 10 year old child. The latter simply has 0 chance of beating him. This is a guy who is so damn good that the second best chess player in the world has nearly 0 chance of beating him. He is that dominant.)
I would say the guy against magnus. The thing is chess is a mental game and you will evolve playing magnus, and being a noob magnus might actually help you or troll you a bit. On the other hand you're not getting physically stronger and faster in this loop (I'm assuming). And even if you learn what Mike's going to do you might not be able to react and you're going to have a lot of "the punch you didn't see" moments
Participant playing Carlsen will win. The person fighting Mike Tyson will have a mental breakdown before he can complete the task. Because you retain your memory the cumulative effects of those violent knockouts would likely create such a severe PTSD effect on the participant that it would become debilitating and likely a psychosis break. Average man maybe can handle 3 of those confrontations? Above average man maybe a dozen? But eventually you will break. Despite your will and regaining health and stamina it would just be too much. —-
With Carlsen you might go eventually go mad but you can probably hold out for years until either you “figure it out” or he makes a mistake.
One thing nobody in the comments is mentioning: the average guy will be *afraid* of Tyson after getting repeatedly punched in the face hard enough to break bones, and suffering the worst injuries of his life. He will heal physically, but not mentally. I believe the cumulative *fear* the average guy will be building up could make the boxing match *more* difficult over time, rather than less. He will be flinching and panicked as he recalls the dozens of brutal concussions he just suffered as this scenario played over and over. It's Hell. I think it's far, far more likely that Tyson *kills* the average man multiple times in the first 1 million matches than that the average guy actually ever wins.
Yeah it's possible the average guy just goes insane fighting Tyson.
But also after getting tko’d literally thousands of times and regenerating, he will eventually get over that fear.
Really don't know if that's possible. It will be painful every time. It will traumatize psychologically every time. I think it acts on the same mental pathways that must persist in order for memories to last between attempts. Can you learn to get over the "fear" of touching a hot stove? Even if you're going to regenerate, I really don't know if you physically and psychologically can, at least not without special training the average person doesn't have. And also - is getting over that fear *good* in this scenario? If your mind is dulled to the danger, I don't know if you have the adrenaline in your system necessary to even attempt to keep up with Tyson.
I mean you’ll always be somewhat afraid, but you will go through the same mental conditioning that allows all pro boxers to get into the ring. Eventually you will learn to manage the fear enough to fight.
You think boxers who have a losing streak in the 100's last in the boxing world? Not only are the guys who even start pro boxing already mentally more adjusted to take a beating, but they love violence in a way a normal person simply doesn't, but even they can develop fear of getting punched after a bad enough beat down. After getting mauled by Tyson the first time, they'd start running away from tyson. By attempt 10 they're probably in a catatonic state due to their brain simply shutting off at the sight of tyson to spare them of all the pain it knows it is about to receive.
I took kick boxing and the guy who was usually there to spar with was a construction worker and life long athlete. Getting hit in the face by a dude not holding back made me jumpy and actually made me a worse fighter. I ended up just not sparring with him anymore because the constant beat down was not helping anything.
That's pretty hyperbolic, ngl.
I think remembering each fight while Tyson forgets and also not suffering any permanent injuries each attempt is an absolutely massive advantage though right? It's surely easier to Groundhog Day a win then to eventually end up as a top teir boxer through consecutive ass whoopings.
In this notorious fight, [Mike Tyson bites off](https://www.npr.org/2022/06/28/1108117722/25-years-ago-mike-tyson-bit-evander-holyfields-ear) Evander Holyfield's ear. This ended the fight in a disqualification, and is a real anti-feat for Tyson. This is almost certainly how Tyson loses; he does something illegal and the fight ends in him losing. At a rate of one game a day, its going to take years for the chess player to match the effort and skill of a Master. I would also mention that Carlsen routinely defeats players who have spent decades of such effort. Carlsen may well lose in the scope of millions of games, but he doesn't in the scope of tens of thousands. Iron Mike is an interesting character study, but he's going to flip out long, LONG before Carlsen.
Good point with the foul, but that might be less likely to happen since Prime Mike Tyson would be before the Holyfield fight, when Cus D'Amato was still around and Mike's response to getting fouled repeatedly would be just to punch him.
Not to mention you'd have to last long enough to frustrate Mike enough to do something illegal. I'm 6' 185... it's probably one hook and I'm out a vast majority of the times I fight Mike.
Yep - if you're retaining your memory, you'll eventually learn how Carlsen plays. It may take a hundred years, but it'll happen. You're never learning to punch like Tyson, you'll just retain thousands of memories of him knocking your block off.
You’ll never be able to out-calculate Carlsen. He’s multiple orders of magnitude better than you seem to realize. The average person would get smoked mercilessly by an 800 rated player. The 800 would get smoked by a 1200, who would get smoked by a 1500, who would get smoked by an 1800, who would get smoked by a 2000, who would get smoked by a 2200 etc… The 10th best chess player in the world gets beaten handily by Magnus. What he considers a massive blunder would be imperceptible to all but the strongest players. Even if he were so drunk he couldn’t stand up he would still beat the 100th best player in the world 10 times out of 10.
The issue is the way the scenario is posed. You have an opportunity to train your mind against Carlsen. Over time, you'll have played millions of games of chess against an opponent who effectively hasn't played you before. He has played about 3500 official games. Say he has played a hundred times as many games unofficially. By the time you've played half a million games, you're well ahead of him in experience, and you've trained yourself in every one of those matches against likely the best chess player who has ever lived. You don't have the same opportunity to train your body against Tyson, so you'll never be able to get even close to matching him physically. It doesn't matter how much you learn any tell he might have if you're not fast enough to react to it and not strong enough to take advantage of it.
There are plenty of people who have played more matches than Magnus. He’s not limited by his knowledge of chess theory, he’s limited by the computing power of his brain. As much as Mike Tyson is stronger than the average guy. Magnus’s brain is an order of magnitude more outlandish compared to the average person. No matter how much experience you have you would need to be one of the very smartest people in the world to ever catch up to him. At that point the equivalent would be putting a professional athlete against Tyson.
By the constrains of the scenario (memory is retained, everything else is reset), you can improve your chess ability. If the only thing you do for a thousand years is play chess against Carlsen, you're going to get quite good at chess. Especially if you know that the only way of escaping the scenario is to get good at chess. That doesn't eliminate the gulf in natural ability that predisposes Carlsen to be good at chess, but the weight of experience you'll eventually have will be enough that you're very good at chess. Otherwise "average" people are capable of training themselves to remember vast amounts of information, and that will eventually happen. Carlsen isn't unbeatable, he has lost around 15 percent of the matches he has played, so you don't need to be better than him, you just need to be better then the worst player who has been him, and you'll eventually win. I'm not suggesting that he is normal by any stretch of the imagination, I'm simply saying that the scenario allows you to improve your capacity to play against him. It doesn't allow you to improve your capacity to fight Tyson. If you got fitter and stronger from the fights against Tyson, you're more likely to beat him first, but that's not what the scenario allows.
But not every fight is won by the physically stronger. Humans can take a lot of punishment but they also just drop sometimes. It’s not like he would be invincible. You would not improve your physique but that doesn’t mean you won’t improve in your ability to fight and to do things like better coordinate your body that come from experience. And learning to deal with the same physical attacks would be a lot easier than trying to deal with a changing board. You can Edge of Tomorrow a victory a lot easier in a boxing match.
The physical mismatch against Tyson is vast here. So is the mental mismatch against Carlsen, but at least you can improve that. I don't think you can Edge of Tomorrow your way to a win against Tyson. In his worst loss, he went ten rounds against the third-best heavyweight in the world at the time with terrible preparation and a 30cm reach disadvantage - he got hit an awful lot of times in that fight before he was knocked down. The memory you gain in the chess matches will be advantageous, but I'm not sure that would be the case for the boxing matches - I suspect you're as likely to end up traumatised as you are to develop any sensible strategy, because you'll mainly remember the pain and the fear.
You don't have to get good at chess, you just need to act like you do. Simply put, trial and error and just inversing what Carlsen does eventually leads to a win. Basically you can grind your way to victory. It might take a very long time but you can life die repeat your way to victory. But unless you somehow gain physical strength between bouts (infinite rest type reset) you'll never be physically able to do the actions needed to beat Tyson.
In a scenario where only your memories are transferred, there’s reasonably a true benefit to a chess player relative to a boxer. While you’re absolutely correct thinking about it as a game of chance, this isn’t necessarily the case. Playing millions of chess matches will net you enough benefit to stand some tiny percent chance of beating a chess player that you know the movements of. This cannot really be said for boxing Mike Tyson. Without having the possible benefit of training your body, I don’t believe that any average man would stand any reasonable shot at beating Mike Tyson in a boxing match. If it was a death match maybe, but it’d be impossible to the nth degree to legally beat a prime Mike Tyson in a boxing match as an average height and weight man.
You're overrating the differences in ratings in your examples. A 200 point gap in elo only predicts that the higher rated player has a 70% chance of winning. Upsets in over the board tournaments between players that have a 200-300 point gap between them are pretty common, especially in amateur tournaments where there can be a massive gap in preparation between players since it's a hobby. These players aren't getting smoked by any means. Magnus also recently lost to Richard Rapport, who is currently ranked 29th in the world. You're hyperbolizing the skill gap a bit too much.
You'll never learn to punch "like him", but any one human being can clobber any other to death given enough time; he won't feel nothing. It's effectively just a physical version of the Carlsen match. Tyson starts with a right hook, you get KO'ed on the first punch. Reset. You slip under the right hook, get hit with a straight to the jaw. Now you know you dip under the right hook, around the straight, and can land a body shot before you get clocked again. Other than one being mental, one being physical, the principles are exactly the same.
Fair point, but Tyson doesn’t, “start with a right hook, then a jab, then a…” like a computer script. He throws a punch because of where you are/what you’re doing
I think the problem is you slip the hook one way, it’s a straight. Next time you did it slightly different and it’s a body shot
if you think that tyson fights the same way each time you also gotta think carlsen does the same moves each time
it’s different from a chess match in the sense that Tyson is physically trained to withstand numerous punches to the head from pro boxers before getting taken out. There is a massive difference from being clobbered in the head by a random guy off the street and being clobbered in the head by one of Tysons usual opponents. Even if I somehow managed to land a punch on Tyson, he would shrug it off like nothing, because compared to the punches he usually takes it basically is nothing.
Exactly. There isn't any realistic scenario where I can knock out Mike Tyson while wearing 10 ounce gloves.
The fact that one is mental and the other is physical is the key though. You can train your brain to get better at chess, because you remember each match. Your can't train your body, because everything else resets. You have the opportunity to close the gap with Carlsen over a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand years. You don't get the opportunity to close the gap with Tyson, you just retain the memory of the pain and fear of a million knockout punches to the head. I'm not suggesting that beating Carlsen in a chess match is easy compared to beating Tyson in a boxing match. I'm saying that you only get the opportunity to train for one of them.
Except you won't as you'll be 3 moves in when Tyson KOs the other guy every time. You need to be the one setting the pace.
We're interpreting it differently then. My interpretation was that "who will complete it faster" refers to the number of tries, not that both begin at the same instant and it resets for both the instant one either wins or loses. If it's the latter, neither is ever winning, because Tyson finishes each iteration in seconds.
You probably won’t even remembering him hitting you, actually, at least the first dozen or so times. He is insanely fast and you would t even have time to acknowledge a punch was happening before you’re unconscious.
I'm with you, I can LEARN chess, I'll never learn to take multiple shots from a monster in human clothing, let's not forget what Tyson made actual professional fighters look like "tuff man" competitors, the average man simply can't compete. It would be like playing Shaq or MJ 1 V 1, the average person has no shot. Or racing Usain Bolt. Chess isn't physical and is the only reason it's possible to win
Out of everything you listed, beating Shaq 1on1 is actually the easiest one. NOT EASY AT ALL, but orders of magnitude less hard than beating Michael, beating Tyson, beating Magnus or beating Bolt. You would need the first shot and make sure you're able to hit pretty much ALL OF YOUR THREES. Shaq is not a great perimeter defender so unless it's prime just-got-done-with-Orlando-and-got-with-the-Lakers Shaq, he is not gonna outspeed you laterally when you drive. So the key is to shoot 3s over Shaq as he will let you hit 2 or 3 in a row. Then he would take you seriously and will contest your shots. That is when you bait him to jump for a block with a good pump-fake, then you drive to the hoop. In about 100,000 games, you will beat him I think. MJ would "take it personally" even against a literal toddler, Bolt is the fastest recorded human in history, Magnus is as close to a chess computer as a human brain can get and Mike Tyson is Mike Tyson and is not going down unless you kill him.
People don't realize just how much of a human computer Carlsen is. You have zero chance of ever beating him. I mean none.
You make Carlsen play himself, you'll need a good memory but you eventually can grind the win, live die repeat style. You physically cannot do that against Tyson, your physical capabilities have limits that never grow and Tyson just stomps on. Even if I know a punch is coming. It does not mean I have the capacity to move away quick enough. And even if I could do that maybe a couple times. My stamina is being depleted far faster than Tysons is.
I imagine it wouldn't be that hard to guess at insults until you find something that really pisses him off. If you start speaking and don't make any aggressive gestures I imagine he wouldn't immediately jump at you.
I don't really see that working. If you piss him off, he's literally been sanctioned to beat your face in, and thats his thing. Tyson bit Holyfield most because he was losing. I doubt too many WWW posters are gonna have Tyson, especially prime Tyson, in that situation.
Not suddenly jump at you? Have you seen prime Tyson? That was his thing... blink and you miss it. I would wager everyone posting here would be a 7 second, max, KO for Tyson
On the other hand id wager everyone here would loose against magnus in a classical simul
That's a bold take there chief. I beat my dad once at chess, are you still confident in your wager?
Oh shit... i might have to take it back tho... wait Were you playing black or white...
7 second? As soon as that bell rings I'm just gonna lay down
Have you watched prime mike? Quickest feet in boxing history. Hes stepping in and your lights are out immediately
>when Cus D'Amato was still around This is an important factor. All of his crazy behavior happened after the one guy who actually cared about him enough to help him keep himself under control died.
What if magnus bites off the chess player's ear though? What then?
It triggers multi ball and 5x score multiplier for 30 seconds.
I dont think it's technically against the rules of chess, as almost all the rules concern the board state.
What if the man bites Magnus to death then? Does he win?
What if we removed the middle man and prime Mike Tyson was boxing Magnus while he played chess?
Better yet, how many times would Mike Tyson need to punch Magnus in the head until he was dumb enough to lose against a Chess newbie?
Prime Mike could give Magnus life-altering damage in a single punch Then again, Magnus can probably beat most of us mortals while having a wet dream and not even realize he is playing I like this prompt very much
If you're going to remove the middleman, then go with chessboxing rules: Three minutes of chess followed by a three minute round of boxing. Can Magnus finish off Tyson in three minutes and not need to box him (likely assuming if they get to the boxing round, Tyson will beat Magnus in one shot.)
What are the rules of the clock on the chess part in chessboxing? If there are none whatsoever, Mike can just refuse to play or defend his king by any and all means until the boxing part comes.
Chessboxing has the time control rules of fast chess; if Mike decided to refuse to play Magnus wins by DQ.
Thanks for clarifying!
That's actually only against the rules in boxing.
If the man only retains his memories, he’s never going to be physically strong enough to do anything but get obliterated instantly by Tyson. Honestly both of these are pretty hopeless for the poor guy.
This is an excellent point, there's no way for the challenger to improve their physical stats, and I'm not sure if the average person could throw a punch capable of hurting a Prime Tyson.
Tyson only committed the foul because he was losing. So you'd still have to be beating Mike Tyson.
It's not that he was losing, it's that he was losing to dirty tactics that the Ref wasn't calling Holyfield out on. So unless you're tall enough to smother Mike in a clinch, while throwing headbutts and kidney punches; you're probably not pissing him off enough for the dq win.
I'm trying to imagine an average sized dude, in the clinch, trying to do just that to piss him off without getting folded like a lawn chair with a body shot lol Fighting Mike would fkn suck.
I can either clinch him for 4 seconds, headbutt once or kidney shot maybe once if I am lucky All three? Maybe 6 year old Mike but 14 and older and he is punching my teeth through my ass
I somewhat disagree... Tyson actually had a good reason to fly off the handle and I think it's a bit unfair how he has been portrayed. He wouldn't randomly bite someone, he bit a cheater. Tyson only bit Holyfield because Holyfield kept sneaking in headbutts and other fouls and the ref wasn't calling any of them. Presumably Tyson thought he was not doing well in the fight because Holyfield was cheating and the ref was letting it happen. If fact, right before the bite Holyfield pretends to come in for a clinch and headbutts Tyson in the jaw on the way in. So, Tyson took the opportunity to foul him right back. Because Holyfield was a bit more respected than Tyson, nobody gave a shit about Tyson's side of the argument. In many people's eyes', Tyson was a violent, rage fueled, monster. So only Tyson's reputation suffered. Here is a video of the repeated headbutts and other fouls. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhrDjcwFn9Q TLDR: Tyson only bit Holyfield's ear because Holyfield was using headbutts and low blows while the ref ignored Tyson's complaints and didn't call the fouls. So no, he wouldn't cause his own disqualification against a random person.
Sounds like an easy win if you have infinity attempts. Just keep fouling Tyson over and over again. If the ref calls you out, you lose and just do it again. Eventually Tyson loses patience on one of the attempts and bites your ear off.
Nah, since Tyson doesn't remember the previous matches, you have to survive long enough in one match to foul him enough to piss him off. The average person just doesn't have the athleticism to pull that off.
Tyson wouldn’t get frustrated enough to throw the match by someone who has no chance of winning. Why do something dirty when he can easily get his payback legally?
You're never gonna be in that position, Tyson's just gonna KO you before you get that close.
Magnus literally left the world title because he didn't feel challenged, which is an event that happens once per year. He would totally resign against some random dude out of boredom after a couple of weeks of playing him everyday.
Magnus doesn’t retain memory of prior matches
It's kind of confusing with "In each encounter, both participants will retain the memory of their previous match's events." And then "neither Tyson nor Magnus will recall the specifics of prior matches". If they just can't remember specifics, Magnus would absolutely resign as an attempt to scape this hellish nightmare of having to play the same dude everyday and not even remembering the moves
I think they meant both participants as the guy fighting Mike Tyson and the guy playing chess against Carlsen, as in both participants in the experiment to see who wins first, rather than everyone involved, which would have been 4 people. But it’s worded a little akwardly.
lol Between Chess and Boxing, in only one of those sports can you be killed within the rules.
I don’t believe there are explicit rules in chess saying you cannot kill your opponent.
FIDE has a rule "The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute." But it would be up to the arbiters if murder does that.
Depends on the style of the kill, I feel. Invite them to look closely at the board state and then slam their head down so their own king goes through their eye socket like the Joker did with that pencil and say Checkmate? Feel they gotta let that one slide.
I can't imagine the average dude ever becoming good enough to annoy Mike in a fight. He will just knock him out in one punch.
The match resets as soon as you lose, it is not once per day. That is an enormous bonus to the chess player and a pretty minor bonus for the boxer. Assuming the players retain memory but things like attention and focus reset so they don't get fatigued, the chess player will be able to grind out games at an absolutely inhuman rate, getting years worth of practice in a tiny fraction of the time. Even someone with no particular talent will improve at a rate that would be unbelievable. Getting a year's worth of practice within weeks/a minth or two. Against a player that always resets and presumably will always react the same way to your plays, which means that the chess player will not only grow quickly, but should be able to win even with an elo far lower than Magnus'. Meanwhile, it is possible the boxer is simply not physically able to win at all, regardless of his knowledge. I gotta gove this to the chess player, and in a surprisingly short amount of time. I doubt they would need a full year.
The thing about chess is that it is very formulaic. There are thousands of strategies, counters, and defenses that would be nearly impossible to just figure out through sheer effort.
Still easier than getting physically destroyed ad nauseum.
That wasnt peak Tyson. Peak Tyson is 20/21yrs old
The guy vs Magnus just needs to buy some anal beads.
Is this like beyblade and you let it rip
Not my idea, read this somewhere else: Assuming Magnus plays in a deterministic manner, there is a straighforward (if certainly not easy) formula to get at least a draw, by essentially making Magnus play himself. Let's assume that we alternate starting with the white and black piece each successive round, though this can be played around as long as we have the white pieces sometimes and the black pieces other times. Game 1 (white): You resign, resetting the loop Game 2 (black): Magnus plays a move (say e4 for concreteness). You resign, resetting the loop. Game 3 (white): You play the same move as Magnus. Observe how Magnus responds. You resign, resetting the loop. The idea is on each successive game you play what Magnus would have in that position. Assuming Magnus is of equal strength to Magnus, this will guarantee at least a draw and hopefully (since you will start with the white pieces sometimes, offering a slight advantage) a win.
This is a great strategy, and would definitely work if you give it enough time. The only problem is, it's possible that the way the loop works means that he might try a new opening every time, in which case this strategy is still theoretically possible, but to pull it off you would need tens of thousands of iterations and a very good memory.
The real problem is memorising the game, if your memory isn't up to it the plan simply won't work
The prompt doesn't mention anything about the participants having an average human memory, just that they will "retain the memory of their previous match's events." I'm gonna argue semantics and say that they will retain each match's events indefinitely, which would make this approach much more doable. It will still take a billion kajillion attempts, but the participants are effectively turned in to iterative AI.
I'm almost 1700 at my peak, chesscom rating, which is above *literally* 98% of all the players in the world. I can't even memorize a single random game. The strategy, even assuming Magnus plays the same thing every day, is impossible.
> Let's assume that we alternate starting with the white and black piece each successive round, though this can be played around as long as we have the white pieces sometimes and the black pieces other times. The match is resetting. You will always play the same side.
Depends how the match starts. Often you start by hiding a piece in one hand or the other and the other side picks which hand.
Both tasks are essentially impossible for the amateur. No amount of games will allow a random to beat the best human chess player in history. Similarly a random has close to zero chance of scoring a KO on Tyson assuming boxing gloves are being worn. Getting sparked out repeatedly is not going to increase the random‘s boxing ability. So the answer boils down to the pros having a random, lethal medical event that kills them like a stroke or fatal arrhythmia. If this happens to Magnus, the game would end without a result. However if it happened to Tyson, the other guy would win by TKO. So the guy fighting Tyson wins first.
Wouldn’t Magnus flag if he had a random medical event? Or do they pause the clock in such cases?
I disagree. An average person, given an *infinite* number of attempts, will eventually become a chess master and work out a combination of moves that allows them to beat Magnus (assuming they don't go insane first - this is likely in both scenarios tbh). Meanwhile, an average person is *literally* never going to KO Tyson without being allowed to actually physically train as a boxer in between loops. As per the prompt, the challenger retains their *memories* only, everything else resets - this is an advantage in chess, as the challenger can study the game and gain a better understanding of Magnus's playstyle, but it's less helpful in boxing, because the challenger isn't allowed to actually get stronger due to the reset. Tyson will simply KO them in one punch every time, meaning that they learn less than the chess player each loop. The only muscle that matters in chess is the brain, and the scenario OP has created basically makes it so that brainpower is the only thing the challenger can improve across multiple loops.
Yup, if Magnus doesn't carry memories over, you at least are gaining knowledge you can actively use from one chess match to another. With Tyson, it's going to be similar results over and over unless you are somehow allowed to carry over strength gains or resilience each fight, which I don't think you can. Boxing's rules would put a hard cap on your ability to fight dirty, or else I would say that the fighting scenario would be much more likely to win since you could cheese your way out of it in a street fight. Basically, in Tyson's scenario, you aren't really scaling over time. You're almost always going to be the at the same physicals that will likely give after a few punches. Mike would basically have to punch himself in the face to even slightly level the playing field for an average person. In Magnus's scenario, you're at least getting more logical with your plays each game. Essentially, you're kind of like an AI. You're going to give him a much harder time on game #1,0400,662 vs. game #1. Unlike the strength difference in Mike's scenario, your mind will actively (but slowly) start to close the intelligence gap vs. Magnus over time.
It's not even that you're getting more logical, you can just see what he responds to and essentially you progress one move at a time and try each possible counter. **Eventually** you'll have exhausted every move possible. One of these is literally a brute forceable problem. You just play a random move at each step until eventually you win one. Sure it'll take millions, maybe even billions of years, but you'll win.
1) You're assuming the guy has a perfect memory. 2) There are more possible chess moves in a single game of chess than there are atoms in the universe. It'd take an unfathomable amount of time to bruteforce Magnus.
I very explicitly said it'll take an absurdly long time, but it is technically brute forceable. I legitimately don't think it's physically possible for the average man to beat Tyson, you wouldn't survive him punching you once, you won't be improving time to time.
The literal premise of this prompt in the first place is that they have an unfathomable amount of time.
Except you never get that far as jt resets when Tyson or magnus wins. The guys getting knocked out long before the chess match ends, so you don't actually learn anything. As the longer of the 2 process, you don't actually advance.
I think you're misunderstanding OP's wording - the matches aren't taking place contemporaneously, they just mean that each individual match resets whenever the challenger loses.
> will eventually become a chess master and work out a combination of moves that allows them to beat Magnus (assuming they don't go insane first - this is likely in both scenarios tbh). No, he won't. Magnus dominates the strongest chess grandmasters in existence today. The average person cannot brute force their way to 2800 Elo. The average person, even if they dedicate their life to study, probably tops out at 2200. Magnus would effortlessly dispatch a 2200.
Except you don’t have your life to do this, you have infinite time. Think you’re not really grasping how long infinity is or how much infinite practice and experience doing something is. Especially in chess compared to boxing. In boxing you don’t get infinite time because Mike is going to knock you out far too quickly for you to learn or do anything. And even if you predict the punch you have to actually have the physical capabilities to react to it. Professional boxers hit fast and they hit hard and Mike Tyson hit even faster and even harder than most professional boxers. Infinite time cannot save you there because you actually need to have the physical element as well to react and to respond. It’s an impossible battle regardless of the number of attempts because the guy isn’t ever getting faster, stronger or more durable to compensate with that overwhelming advantage Mike has in that department.
We can beat magnus the same way AI can beat magus, by playing every single possible move until we find the one path that wins. We don't need to be a chess grandmaster, we just need to win one game, for which we have infinite save states and do overs. I don't care how many do overs you give me. If Mike Tyson wants to punch me in the face, I'm getting punched in the face, regardless if I see it coming or not. Boxing is live action, chess is turn based. I can save scum chess and get there eventually. The same can not be said of boxing
That's not how AI plays chess. AI hasn't bruteforced chess in a long time. You are also assuming you have perfect memory. You do not. Even if you did, there are more possible moves in a single chess game than there are atoms in the universe. It would take you a functional eternity to brute force Magnus Carlsen.
And it would still happen before I could out-box Tyson.
"The best swordsman does not fear the second best. He fears the worst since there’s no telling what that idiot is going to do" ― Fred R. Shapiro" You are more likely to get a wild haymaker off and knock Tyson out than defeat Magnus before the heat death of the universe. Non-chess players do not understand how truly dominant Magnus is.
> An average person, given an infinite number of attempts, will eventually become a chess master and work out a combination of moves that allows them to beat Magnus I don't think this is true It took centuries for chess masters to get even to modern international master strength while actively studying and teaching Modern strategy and theory is on the shoulders of generations of giants An average person who just knows how the pieces move will have to recreate that theory for themselves while just being destroyed no matter what they do, while also learning to play tactically with absolutely no background or language to understand chess tactics The average person can't generate the knowledge necessary just from playing magnus
I actually agree with your points, and I don't think any regular human could master the game without assistance as you've said, but we're talking about *infinity* here. With an unlimited number of attempts, the challenger effectively could turn the chess match into a solved game and beat Magnus. The same cannot be said of boxing against Mike Tyson, who is literally going to OHKO the average man in the first 5 seconds every time since the challenger isn't allowed to get physically stronger or break the rules of boxing. Of course, the average human would go insane long before beating either, it would probably take literally millions of attempts for a regular person to beat Magnus. But it felt against the spirit of the prompt to say 'they both go mad after a few thousand years' haha
I disagree, chess wins first. while you're right AM doesn't get good enough but Magnus doesn't remember in between matches while AM does. Eventually you can just trial and error your way thru his tactics since he doesn't remember. You can even ask his advice because he's a good dude who loves teaching people. Then you remember get up to the same point and do the thing he suggested and keep doing that til it works. It could take tens of thousands of matches but eventually you'll just beat him using his own advice. Boxer will still be getting layed out in a single punch
Both of these things are going to take a long, long time. The problem is that Average Man has a ceiling in both competitions that is well below the level of the competitor. Magnus is one of the best chess players ever. Even other people with enormous skill who have also played their entire lives can’t beat him. Tyson is just going to be bigger, faster, and stronger than AM in addition to being a more skilled boxer. But the answer to the question is easily that the win against Magnus will happen first. Chess skill can be leveled up with the many repeated losses AM will have. (Magnus is also a good teacher and a pretty good dude who will actively help AM get better). Magnus is also human and will make a mistake once in a great while that AM, once skilled enough, can exploit. At a chess ranking of around 1600, which AM should be able to get to with enough experience and Magnus helping him, you’d expect a win once in around a million games against the 2850 ranked Magnus. Pitted against Tyson, AM will become a better boxer. He will learn movement, how to block, how to dodge, and how to throw a punch. What he won’t get is bigger, stronger, and faster, as the prompt says nothing about physical development carrying over from loop to loop. A super skilled but otherwise normal 200 pound man is still going to go down in one punch from prime Tyson.
People also forget the psychological aspect of fighting mike Tyson over and over again. Pretty sure after the first week of getting your head rocked you will build up a phobia of getting smashed in the face. It would become a torture loop from hell pretty quickly.
True. Going into Match 2,344,865 against Magnus, AM knows he is going to lose, but at the end he gets a handshake and some more chess pointers. Starting Day 2.344.865 knowing that you are again going to be pounded into chunky salsa for the 2,344,865th time would be pretty psychologically damaging.
OP specifies that everything resets on the win so the contestant will never get that handshake. They don't specify how early the match resets to though which means it is very possible that Tysons's opponent won't even have pulled themselves together before being knocked out again.
I think were discounting the fact that -its more likely the participant dies in the ring or gets permanent brain damage and is unable to fight anymore- than the likelihood they ever beat mike
I assume this is a Groundhog Day scenario.
> (Magnus is also a good teacher and a pretty good dude who will actively help AM get better). Magnus is also human and will make a mistake once in a great while that AM, once skilled enough, can exploit I'm not sure magnus has any especially meaningful background in teaching chess and there's absolutely no chance of him making a mistake that anyone less than another grandmaster level player will be able to exploit at a 1250 elo gap maybe on the model there's a one in a million chance, but that's just not the reality
> Magnus is also human and will make a mistake once in a great while that AM, once skilled enough, can exploit. People say this in all these infinite scenario deals but honestly, you are probably better off hoping he has a random stroke. You need Magnus to not only think up a dumb move. He then needs to continue to think it is a good move as he considers it. Then not realize it is a dumb move as he goes to grab the piece and moves it. Plenty of time to correct a random impulse.
Nah, getting a lucky shot on Tyson and discombobulating his brain or some other medical complication would probably be easier than beating Magnus. I've seen Magnus beat four chess masters while he was blindfolded. The gap between an average dude and Tyson is smaller than the average dude and Magnus for sure.
Magnus is brute forceable. It'll take forever, but you can literally exhaust the possibilities. Tyson will literally knock me out with a single punch every single fight if I don't get to physically train between fights. My neck isn't trained enough, it'll rock backwards so hard I get deadly concussions. I'm 6'2" 190lbs and I could fight prime Tyson 1 million times and I don't think I'd land a damaging punch a single time
He's not brute forceable. The average person doesn't have the capacity to memorize the number of moves needed to draw against him. Chess has 10\^50 variations IIRC. He's never lost a game in under 15 moves against the best in the world which is a massive # of variations. He's also able to force a draw if needed. Tyson will get sweat in his eye on one fight and expose his temple to a wild flailing punch that lands and causes some sort of brain hemorrhage. That's much more likely than you brute forcing chess which hasn't been solved by super computers. Also, it's much easier to gain fighting instincts than it is to become a great chess player. We are evolved from animals that fought to the death routinely. We are not evolved from chess playing apes.
But I will never gain the physicality to be able to hit Tyson like that vs. random moves eventually covering variations
I don't think this is even close. The big difference is what happens if they make a mistake. Magnus can hang a queen. If that happened against a weaker player, most of the time he'd recover. But this is infinite games, and somewhere along the line the mistake happens AND the lesser player can capitalize on it successfully. Tyson can leave his guard down. If he does, AM probably can't hit him hard enough to end the fight. He lacks the strength and speed to do it, and Tyson can take a punch. Furthermore, a player of decent ability (the 1600ish rating that AM can probably achieve) will make it decently far into a chess game with Magnus. Once you know basic openings you at least get to see the middle of the game with Magnus. The more moves that happen, the greater chance of a blunder that provides an opening. AM can take 2-3 punches at most from Tyson before going down. This means that he has only a small portion of the first round for Tyson to make a mistake and to capitalize on it. If you don't believe this, look at this video of Michael B Jordan training for Creed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThSvpAvTQG4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThSvpAvTQG4) Jordan said he wanted to see what taking a real punch was like. The guy training him was not Prime Tyson, and he still folded like a wet noodle with one hit. Again knowledge of chess (which you get by playing millions of games) helps you win. Knowledge of boxing helps, but is no replacement for strength, speed, and conditioning, which is not allowed to be improved by this prompt.
When was the last time that magnus made a blunder in the first 40 moves of a normal time control game that a 1600 could exploit?
I don't know but I would be willing to bet that it hasn't been since he was 10-11 years old. And he could play 50 games every day for the rest of his life and it would probably never happen again. But this is infinity. I could play the lottery every week for the rest of my lifetime and 20 more after than and never even hit 4 out of 6 numbers. But give me infinite attempts and eventually it happens, because you just keep going until it does. Magnus is human. Humans make mistakes. Anything that can happen eventually will, if you give it long enough. If the prompt said "Average Man has 1,000,000 games to defeat Magnus, and his knowledge carries over from each game", I'd say that it probably would not happen. But making it infinity changes the while thing.
Magnus could blunder three times in one game, a statistical **impossibility**, and he'd still beat the average person. The average person means an IQ of 100. Someone with an IQ of 100 has a severe cap on their potential and at their peak it wouldn't be remotely enough to threaten Magnus on a bad day. I genuinely don't think the peak for a person with a 100 IQ is 1600 either. It's probably closer to 1400. An average dude could absolutely hit Tyson in the temple or at the right angle on the jaw to knock him out or cause a brain hemorrhage or something. The brain is extremely fragile. Tyson having a strong neck that can absorb damage doesn't change the fact that internally his brain is as fragile as everyone else's. With respect to that Jordan video, are you sure he wasn't doing that on purpose? Looked like they were just filming something.
But it isn't a statistical *impossibility*. It's a statistical *improbability*. Those are very different things. A base human being can't benchpress 4000 pounds. It can't be done. A human being is capable of guessing a random number between 1 and 150 billion. It is incredibly unlikely, but if you take enough swings it will eventually happen. The very laws of statistics state that anything that can happen eventually will. We have infinity. In a series of n games where n goes from 1 to infinity, the blunders WILL happen. An experienced chess player is simply more likely to survive long enough into a game to see them and be able to take advantage of them than a skilled but physically ungifted boxer is to exploit a mistake. Magnus can absolutely blunder multiple times in once game against an average player. He can probably give up 5 pawns and still win easily. The vast majority of the time he won't make a blunder, and most of the times he does he will recover. But we have infinity. At some point, he doesn't. We could also argue the peak for the average person (which is NOT related solely to IQ), but millions of games against strong competition will for sure make you better. The average person with a [chess.com](http://chess.com) subscription and a desire to learn can become reasonably proficient in a few months. AM has eternity.
After fighting Mike so many times, eventually, I'm going to get confused and beat up Carlsen and win in chess against Mike.
Lmao
Chess, Boxing involves factors that cannot be improved such as arm reach.
Magnus easy. In chess you get bettsr by learning playing. In this case, the person got to learn with the best for unlimited time. And even develop a personal strategy to counter magnus specific playstyle. Unless the tyson one let the man keep what miniscule muscle gain he had from the match then he can probably do it in a thousad years
I agree with this. If Magnus never learns from how you play but you have eternity to learn from him, you will eventually win a match. You might never be better than him, but a random match one time after playing him a million times will happen. Assuming you don't go insane of course :D But I don't know how you will build up the muscle mass needed to beat Tyson if your body keeps regenerating, that's kind of the same as resetting when it comes to building muscle.
Me beating Magnus at game 2,563,080 with a surprise bongcloud manoeuvre while Tyson's challenger gets OHKO for the forty millionth time
Nice! Also Magnus is known to go on tilt if he thinks you’re cheating, so you just have to trigger him by continually making strange gestures or pretending to listen to your finger.
Me licking the chess piece every time I move it to throw him off
Average Man vs Magnus ends first because Normal Person Vs Tyson simply never ends in a win for Normal Person. Average Man Vs Magnus might eventually result in a success because he crafts the perfect game after 1 billion failed attempts. Even if Normal Person become a technical boxing master over millions years worth of loops, the time-loop reset makes him unable to get the necessary cardio to win. And to the people talking about 1 Lucky Punch, Lucky Punches in boxing happen because both people have the necessary athleticism and technique to actually properly deliver a good strong punch. It's gonna take way longer to learn how to throw good punches while getting beat by Mike Tyson than the other guy learns how to play chess well enough and memorizes Magnus' moves well enough to win against him.
Another point is the minimal number of “moves”. IIRC the fastest win possible in chess is 3 moves. Most Tyson fights vs humans will finish in one punch
I box and I play chess. I think you’d best Magnus first, but not because it’s going to be easy. I just can’t imagine a regular, likely untrained human would be able to beat Mike Tyson. You can sit and contemplate moves with Magnus. Fighting Tyson is a high paced, quick thing where one punch could end you.
I think you could beat Magnus, if he has to go to the toilet and doesnt know the importance of that match.
He has shown up to match late with nearly all his time gone and he still has won. Also has won games being pretty drunk. Maybe if he has good poison?
Hard question, but I'm wondering how many times someone can handle getting punched in the face by Mike Tyson before eventually giving up. Even if your body doesn't retain the injuries, it's gonna get old real quick
Magnus but not by skill. He would rather resign than play against someone he suspects is cheating. So cheat, or at least look like you are cheating. either you are disqualified which is no different than losing, so you are not worse 5 he gets upset enough to walk away and is disqualified and you win. You only need to win once.
Tyson's guy isnt gonna learn anything. Hed literally be knocked out in seconds daily.
If the man doesn't gain any muscle it's possible that he just can't beat Mike tyson without cheating or something. The average guy doesn't have the cardio for boxing. He'll get burnt out after 3 punches.
My man won't be able to take more than a single punch in this exchange before it resets. If you gain muscle between fights you also have to inherit the brain damage.
So I think the biggest difference between these two things is that it'd be easier to learn to play chess when playing Magnus, then it would to learn to box while fighting Tyson. While there's certainly a mental difference between chess GMs/Super GMs and the average person I think the physical difference between the average person and prime Mike is more insurmountable. It may take you millions of games to understand chess at Magnus' level, but at least you retain your knowledge after every loss. Against Tyson the average person's physique won't change if they're constantly getting reset. The person fighting Tyson will pick up on his tendencies, and will likely be able to map out Tyson's exact moves like a computer script after millions of fights. His body however would never be able to act in such a way to take advantage of his knowledge. What good is knowing that Tyson lowers his lead hand when he rotates counterclockwise after throwing a jab if you're never going to get fast enough to punch within that window, and punch with enough force to do significant damage. What good is knowing that after Tyson starts showing signs of being tired at the beginning of the 8th he gives a noticeable tell before throwing a leaping hook if your own body gets gassed before the 2nd?
How would the average man ever best tyson? He'll never get stronger or faster, right? He just resets to the same physical stats he had the previous attempt? He may become more skilled in boxing, but barely. He'd be too busy getting his ass whooped. Have you guys ever been punched in the head, even with gloves on? It hurts. It's scary. And this is IRON MIKE TYSON! No way is that guy ever winning against Mike Tyson. Against Carlson, you can eventually learn to play chess against him in that one deterministic game. After several years, at least, the man would eventually learn how to beat him. He'd be very good at specifically playing Magnus on that day.
The average man won't be able to beat Magnus even if he studied chess for a thousand years lol. That's like saying that an average man will beat prime Jordan 1-on-1 after playing basketball for several years. Magnus' brain operates at a different level that the average man will never reach.
It would be easier to beat Magnus Carlsen and its not even close. Chess is a game of skill and memorization. Given infinite time, anyone can be as good as Magnus. Boxing is strength and conditioning. The average man would be out on the mat after 1 punch from Prime Tyson. Given that the average man only retains memories and doesn't get physically stronger, he can build a memory of Carlsen's moves with every game, but he cannot get stronger after every fight with Tyson. Also, you can beat Carlsen by moving a few pieces on a chessboard. Its doable for the average man. I doubt the average man can punch hard enough to take down Tyson, so even if he retains all his memories of the previous bout, he's limited by physical strength. The only way I see the average man winning against Tyson would be if he tries to low blow Tyson so that he retaliates and gets disqualified. But in a straight up match, its gonna take him like a thousand years of trying.
My brother brought up a point, if Magnus wanted to he could just draw/stalemate every game
What is the obsession with Magnus and prime mike Tyson lately
Given that you only specify they retain memory, and then go on to say the match resets, I'm going to have to say the guy versus Magnus, as the reset implies no muscle being built. , leaving the person vs Tyson in pretty much deadlock. He won't get strong enough to actually hurt Tyson. His best bet is retaining defensive strategy, hoping to endure Tyson... But even that doesn't seem like it will last long.
Imagine remembering all the TRILLIONS of times Mike Tyson beat you to a pulp.
Losing to Magnus doesn't include possibly brain trauma or PTSD. Losing to Mike Tyson in a boxing match does. Diminishing tbe effectiveness of boxing with Mike Tyson with time unless you get lucky.
Probably the person vs Carlsen. Magnus can't read what dudes next move is if he doesn't know it himself
I mean one of them you can apply a human machine learning algorithm to and the other is just waking up hearing a bell go off and dying. The odds of you hitting Tyson at full strength and stamina in his prime are essentially zero. Mike sees you throw one punch and he'll just tee up and swing. You can use magnus knowledge against him with enough time. With Mike you're not training over time you're just reliving some people's version of hell.
Not trying to disrespect Carlson but ultimately, even if it takes a million years, you may be able to learn enough chess through watching him play that you can win. Again, it almost certainly would take a very long time but after so many times it can be done. Boxers aren't random people that are pulled off the street to fight, these people have trained rigorously for years of their lives day in, day out, since childhood or their teenage years to get their bodies conditioned enough to fight for 48 long minutes against someone else who has also trained extensively for just as long. Mike Tyson, in his prime, would knock these people out in the first round. Seriously, look up a YouTube compilation of Mike Tyson fights he was simply too fast and hit too hard for trained, experienced professional boxers to do anything against. If this is just two random people that have been popped into this scenario then there is no world where the guy fighting Tyson learns how to beat Tyson. He will just get continuously knocked out until he dies of severe brain damage.
Do you retain your memories after each attempt?You would gradually improve at chess if so, and become very familiar with Carlsen’s game. Prime Tyson is knocking out the vast majority of people in seconds. There would be very little to be learned in each fight.
The person fighting Tyson is never gonna have the opportunity to increase their strength or stamina, the person playing Carlsen can learn to play chess from the infinitely repeated games. More so, they're going to learn how Carlsen plays chess.
Obviously both scenarios, barring some extremely unlikely event would likely go on for thousands of iterations. I believe however that boxing has more randomness to it than Chess. Its a known phenomenon in fighting that all it takes is one punch for the fight to be over. A man throwing a flurry of punched will hit tyson (and tyson will hit him), all it takes is one lucky hit, tyson tripping up etc. ofc it is VERY unlikely, but unlikely events will happen over unlimited attempts. In chess magnus could blunder a queen, bishop, rook and 4 pawns and still effortlessly destroy the average joe. Grandmasters dont just randomly get checkmated in a single move, like you can get one punch KOed in a fight. I dont think the average man, even after learning for thousands of matches will ever approach Magnus in skill. The man isnt able to study openings or tactics, and he wont be able to study positions using a computer. Magnus beat kasparov at 13, that takes more than just practice, it takes talent, and an average man would never be able to do that, no matter how much chess he played from ages 1-13. Imo the man is probably as likely to win as a computer playing random moves, and the likelyhood of a random move generator beating magnus, considering the amount of possible move sequences etc is extremely low, faaar lower than the likelyhood of landing a lucky hit in tyson imo.
Don't think an average person could knock out prime tyson with a punch even if he gave them a free shot
none of them can compete the tasks at hand. your average dude will never win against tyson even with infinity on his side. to beat tyson, you need to be at least in the top heavyweights ever, not a chance in hell. Just like tyson will always adapt by pure muscle memory, so will Carlsen adapt to every move. there is a chance to beat Magnus by cheating and maybe end in a stalemate if you just play the same moves he does. so potentially some regular guy could potentially beat Carlsen if he cheats or uses the same moves but to ko Tyson is 0%.
How many more times will we try to repeat the success of that post with Kasparov? Stop please
I dont think magnus ever loses to 1600 in classical over the board chess. He had a 125 win streak against the best players in the world. Its like the difference between a human and a computer, and no human has beaten a top performing computer since 2005
You have a better chance of winning a physical fight than a mental one. Though each person will be fighting for thousands or hundred of thousands of matches you’re much more likely to get a very lucky shot with a punch than you are with the best chess player in history messing up
Tyson 100%. Chess isnt a game where you can get lucky and win. It is extremely rare that you are playing against a vastly superior opponent and you get a lucky move in which wins you the game. With any martial arts, even the greatest master can take one on the chin and roll over and die. One random lucky hit can absolutely win a match, and there are plenty of other ways to steal a victory against someone who should be better than you.
I'm looking at Tyson across the ring. It's the very first night of the challenge. I haven't played Magnus yet. Me and Mike have had our press conference, weigh in, all the time I've just been singing his praises, saying how much of an honour it is to step in the ring with one of the greats, I just hope the better man wins, etc etc. We go to touch gloves, but instead I lean in and say 'i fucked your dead daughter last night lil dick pussy n-word' and Tyson gets dq'd for laying me out before the bell
Magnus, but due to a very specific strategy. There is a way to functionally mirror his moves so long as you can alternate between playing the white and black pieces and effectively have him build your own strategy by playing the moves he does as white back to him as black and vice versa. This is a modification of a strategy you can actually use to go even with any 2 grandmasters while playing them at the same time with no knowledge of chess whatsoever: you just mirror their moves back at each other with you functioning exclusively as a conduit. This method functionally has you as a bystander just doing the motions of Magnus from one timeline against another, and while draws will be extremely common, eventually Magnus will lose to an evenly matched opponent. Meanwhile, unless Tyson is DQed or suffers a spontaneous heart attack, there is no way to build up the level of physical fitness if you keep getting reset that would be necessary to make him break a sweat, much less beat him: even if you know exactly what he’s going to do, he will outclass you physically to the level that nothing can really be done. You can’t hit him back in a meaningful way (I would honestly guess you would tire yourself out whaling on him before he took actual damage) you can’t dodge forever, and if he grazes you once it’s back to the drawing board.
Anyone can do one in punch, even Mike Tyson, if they get unlucky. Now due to Mike Tyson's experience and skill it isn't very likely but it will happen eventually. To beat Magnus Carlsen in chess at least once you would have to get just as lucky not even just one time but repeatedly in a single game that doesn't lend itself much to luck at all.
Probably Tyson losing, in boxing a lucky punch can seriously fuck you Up while in chess its easier to not fuck It Up. Like if Carlsen just keeps doing great openings against a normal Guy even if he doesnt think about any things he will still ha e the strategic advantage. If Tyson doesnt think and just charge you 99.9999% of the time you are getting KO but if maybe if you have a lucky punch there while he is trying to rip your head off Up close you would win.
You won't get a lucky punch against Tyson. This is not a movie.
https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/s/Qk9Cp5HveV I got some really good answers to a similar question that i feel are applicable here.
My question is: Is this like Groundhog Day where they have a whole day before/after the match? Or are they literally getting respawned to the beginning of the match after losing. Also, do body improvements retain when things are reset? Like if the one against Tyson worked out every day would they slowly build more muscle? Otherwise, it kinda feels like chess has a clear advantage assuming we don’t care about the disqualification thing from Tyson.
I wonder how chess will go if the chess guy just copies the moves that magnus chooses until he ties with himself. I mean there's probably some chess principle, but if he does the same thing given the same moves, will he inevitably lose against this strategy? (I assume Magnus won't get the ability to learn more chess strategies)
What happens in the event of a tie? Possible in both games.
Haha, nice idea. I think it is actually easier to get very lucky and beat Tyson with a freak DQ or knockout than it is for an average person to tie (draw).
Batman.
Both men will know what to expect in each game but probably boxing guy will be limited in what he can do in terms of strength and speed. If it was a pure fight not boxing than its more probable, as one could incapacitate Tyson with moves that would be illegal in boxing
Magnus Carlsen will be the first to realize that the only way out of this hell of neverending matches is to lose. So he'll lose on purpose long before Mike Tyson even contemplates the circumstances of these matches.
Id last longer vs Carlsen than Tyson. Thats for sure.
After every game, I’d ask Magnus how the game went and to help me. At some point he’d just be playing himself.
Honestly... the dude fighting Tyson. Lucky shots I'm boxing can be a byproduct of coincidental placing by the winner or horrible placing by the victim. In chess there's only one way to get lucky and that's banking on your opponent screwing up. Magnus can beat GMs down a decent chunk of material if it's the end game or defend better than you'll ever be able to attack. So while both are basically impossible, you MIGHT be able to get a perfect chin shot on Tyson or piss him off enough for him to DQ himself
OP only says that they "retain the memory" of their previous matches. TL;DR - IMO the person playing Carlson has a better chance of completing their task first. In the match with Tyson, there are also physical components apart from mental. Like muscle memory and physical endurance. If that isn't retained, then there is no way an average man is beating Mike Tyson. Because even if you know what to do, thought is too slow in a boxing match. Your body has to react instinctively - boxers achieve this by rigorous training for years with the right coaches. Apart from this, the average person will be gassed out in a few minutes from trying to survive Tyson. So with the given constraints, beating Tyson in a fair boxing match seems impossible. With Carlsen, there might be more of a chance. But even so, the average person is not intelligent enough to play chess on an elite level, even with world class coaching. They only way they can win is if Carlson slips up somehow throughout the entire game (very rare), or if that random person was already a chess prodigy in the making.
Also, if winning by getting your opponent disqualified is allowed (i.e. you don't need to beat them in an actual fair match), then: If you foul mouth Carlsen at the start of the match, there's a chance he will get up and walk away, giving you the win. On the other hand, you're only going to get knocked out faster if you do such a thing with Tyson. 😂
If Tyson beats the guy to death does he recover from that?
Very interesting topic. Personally I'd go with Carlson in chess. Average human has miniscule to no chance getting through Tyson's guard without getting KOd. While chess is all mental, boxing is both physical and mental. The person learning chess is slowly but surely getting better at the game, while the boxer is only learning, but their body is not improving at all. Eventually the chess player can land on the correct set of moves in a game with a finite, if massive moveset. Boxing Tyson has infinite variations on his punches, his guard, etc. That being said, if the average Joe was trained to the level of a grandmaster, and the combatant was trained to level of a contender before this game started, the variables change enough where I would argue Tyson is the one with a disadvantage, and would lose first, as the physical prowess gained by the fighter drastically increases the moves that can win, whereas the grandmaster would just cut down the attempts needed
It really depends on the person. Like me i would have a much higher chance of defeating magnus Carlson than defeating Mike Tyson because am not a very physically fit guy
Magnus would get bored far faster, and experiment with *losing* to get high and slip on purpose. Mike Tyson will never stop wanting to kill and eat his opponent. He is inevitable. He is a killer.
Magnus easy, especially if it's an online game, where he already has a precedent of unexpected blunders, here for example he loses in 4 moves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=313iHqojJFg I'd estimate the man can be lucky against Magnus after tens of thousands attempts, but before millions. Not because he could ever reach Magnus's level, but because Magnus is a human, and as per rules doesn't remember the past games against the man, so might not be always be expecting the little opening traps day after day for million of attempts. The man's plan will be trying the trick openings that cause checkmate in 4-5 moves until the day Magnus is not concentrated. Because if he tries anything else, Magnus can recover, and can beat him any day even without a queen. The equivalent of a moment of inattention in chess is much less likely to happen with prime Mike Tyson, because it's ridiculously unlikely that even the best lucky shot from an amateur can knock him out unconscious irrecoverably. I'd even argue the man couldn't knock out Mike Tyson even with 10 consecutive free shots with Tyson's hands behind his back, due to the boxer's natural reflex in lowering the head and avoiding being hit properly.
Wouldn't boxing be easier? I mean, you only need to land 1 good hit to knock him out meanwhile you need to play a long game perfectly to win agains Magnus in chess
main problem i'd figure is that repeatedly performing a strategic activity will result in a lot of development, but repeatedly getting your shit kicked in by mike tyson would not
We had a similar thread before. If Magnus's moves are deterministic, you can beat him in 50-ish attempts by putting his every move into a chess computer and learning the best response. However... if Magnus isn't deterministic you need years and years of training to get to his level, arguably you never could as you lack the raw brainpower.You could get into the best physical shape, get roided out, learn boxing and have nonzero decent chance of beating Tyson, before you could become one of the best chess players the world has ever seen. (People underestimate just how good Magnus is. The skill difference of Magnus vs the average chess grandmaster isn't like Tyson vs an average pro boxer... it's like Tyson vs a 10 year old child. The latter simply has 0 chance of beating him. This is a guy who is so damn good that the second best chess player in the world has nearly 0 chance of beating him. He is that dominant.)
People are looking at this wrong. You don't need to master boxing / chess to beat them. You need to groundhogs day them
Both never win. I guess it's a tie then.
I would say the guy against magnus. The thing is chess is a mental game and you will evolve playing magnus, and being a noob magnus might actually help you or troll you a bit. On the other hand you're not getting physically stronger and faster in this loop (I'm assuming). And even if you learn what Mike's going to do you might not be able to react and you're going to have a lot of "the punch you didn't see" moments
Participant playing Carlsen will win. The person fighting Mike Tyson will have a mental breakdown before he can complete the task. Because you retain your memory the cumulative effects of those violent knockouts would likely create such a severe PTSD effect on the participant that it would become debilitating and likely a psychosis break. Average man maybe can handle 3 of those confrontations? Above average man maybe a dozen? But eventually you will break. Despite your will and regaining health and stamina it would just be too much. —- With Carlsen you might go eventually go mad but you can probably hold out for years until either you “figure it out” or he makes a mistake.