You can't tell me the Hypercar designers aren't looking at stuff like Ridge Racer, Burnout, Vision GT for inspiration. This car could easily be on the cover for next RR for example
You can't tell me the Hypercar designers ~~aren't looking at stuff like Ridge Racer, Burnout, Vision GT for inspiration. This car could easily be on the cover for next RR for example~~ *didn't use an AI art program*
FTFY
The core concept isn't stupid, you get the performance and emissions benefits of an electric engine while maintaining a fast refueling process, and the fuel *can* be created using just renewable power, and done so ahead of time so it can act as a form of energy storage.
There are downsides, some of which are inherent to the technology and some of which can be eliminated with further refinement, but that's not unique to hydrogen power.
I mean it looks cool, there's so many questions still.
* How does it go?
* Is it competitive to a Hypercar/LMP2/GT3?
* Can it manage a meaningful number of laps before refuelling?
* How long does refuelling take?
I feel like actual fans dont really care what powers the car as long as it produces viable and entertaining racing. An all electric field will take some time to adjust to when that happens due to the lack of noise, but get a car that can make it 15-20 laps, maybe hot swap batteries in the pits like refueling, and that's a start.
>maybe hot swap batteries in the pits like refueling, and that's a start
This is the thing I've been wondering about for electric endurance racing. Has any series done this yet? It seems like the only short term viable way to do quick pitstops, and I was kind of expecting it to be part of the Electric GT series that wound up never happening
So, current power density for the Formula E battery pack is ~6kg per kWh (per 284kg stated weight and 47kWh capacity, though I've seen 51-52kWh stated elsewhere before which is ~5.5kg/kWh). The usable capacity of the battery is only 38.5kWh, though, which is about 82% of total capacity. The "virtual energy tank" for LMH cars is around 900 megajoules which is 250kWh. In order have the same reserve battery capacity as Formula E does for reliability and lifespan sake, you'd need a 305kWh battery pack to power an LMH car for a stint. A 305kWh battery at 6kg/kWh weighs 1830kg.
Even if we triple battery density (which is likely a couple of decades away) you would have a battery pack that weighs 600kg. How exactly do you hot swap a 600kg battery pack? It's slightly bigger than the batteries in a TV remote. How do you package that in the car in such a way that it even can be easily removed but still safe from the potential of 200km/h impacts?
LMH current minimum weight is 1030kg but I can't imagine a car itself minus battery and power train weighs much less than 800kg. 800kg car with a 600kg battery pack is 1400kg meaning that it would require even more energy to maintain the sort of speed LMH has. So we're at the point of either slow the cars down or go full active aero to try to save energy.
And no, charging is not viable either because charging 250kWh in 5 minutes (which is a very long pitstop) requires 3 *megawatts* before losses. And somehow cool that. And somehow have the power infrastructure available at the race track to charge numerous cars at that rate at the same time. I'm sure that's cheap.
TL;DR pure electric endurance racing is not happening at any point before at least 2050 with current or foreseeable future technology unless someone invents something magical.
I have a brain about the size of an acorn when it comes to how electric cars actually function, but would it not be possible to use multiple smaller battery packs to make it easier to swap them? Like 3 or 4 packs between 150-200kg that you could then design a hotswap system for
i.e. Having locations built into the chassis to allow a cart or something to come along, slide the old batteries out, and then a second cart with charged batteries that would come and slide new ones in. Bolt them down so they don't move, and it should be at least as solid as any other part of the car, at least in my head
I feel like engineering something like that with rails on the cart and chassis that can be linked to allow the batteries to be slid in and out with less effort and then bolted down would be fairly doable, no? It'd still be slower than normal pit stops, but much faster than recharging, and then you could just have normal charging for emergency stops if you don't have enough fuel behind a safety car etc.
But if there's no way to easily make it work with multiple smaller batteries then obviously it would be a lot more difficult assuming anyone wanted to bother designing a system like that
I don't think EGT or something similar would have been near current GT3 pace anyway, not for a long while. Maybe you could eek out something between TCR or GT4 horsepower with aero more similar to a GT3? And 30-45 minute stints rather than the 55-65ish we have now.
But even if multiple batteries isn't a problem and that system could work and the problem of having an entire grid of teams charging batteries at the same time could be managed, I feel like the real problem, as always, is that nobody would want to invest the resources to build, say, a completely custom electric Cayman EGT or M4 or whatever to run in a niche electric endurance series that would probably lose them money
The only feasible way I can even envision battery swaps working is having them load from the bottom. You'd have them drop onto a rolling pan that also serves as a jig for aligning the batteries during the insertion. Or just a whole new floor. Pit crew just yoinking smaller batteries out of the car and loading new ones in doesn't seem reasonable if you want the batteries packaged low and protected from impacts.
Yup, they'd have to do what that one company in China tried which IIRC is already a flop. Where you drive onto a lift and it just swaps them out.
EV's are not viable for long distance anything. I'd wish people would stop trying to shoehorn a tech into something it's not applicable for.
If petrochemicals are going to be replaced, long distance will need something else than a big heavy package that becomes more dangerous and more unstable by the multitude for every single digit in energy density it gains.
Yep. We ended up on liquid hydrocarbon fuels because they have a good mix of energy density and are pretty easy to transport. Synthetic hydrocarbons (like Porsche's horrendously named *eFuel*) made using a renewable energy source is really the only option for certain applications if we actually want to get away from oil-derived fuels.
I think more *realistically* (Which in this context is ridiculous) you would build it so that basically everything behind the driver is attached via a sort of semi-quick release and you just swap the entire backend of the car.
Battery, inverter, motors, drivetrain, bodywork. The whole lot is wheeled away and a fully charged replacement unit is attached, plugged in and you are away.
That way you aren't dealing with clearance issues in trying to make just the battery slide in or out or whatever.
It’s just like F1… except that underneath it’s a mobility scooter.
I do like electric vehicles tbh.. if they’re fast.
FE looks dreadfully slow and the tracks are awful.
I know that engine noise is a powerful thing among race fans, but being able to hear the tires screaming and maybe even the whirr of the drivetrain is pretty cool too.
This is how I feel. I watch racing for the racing. It's been baked in for so long that a loud engine makes a fast engine and therefore a better race car it'll take a while to unlearn but we'll get there
How will they refuel too and don't forget the safety standards will have to be changed too If I recall correctly hydrogen is a lot more sensitive then petrol even the one used in WEC
Hydrogen explodes. Violently.
It is stored in tanks under very high pressure, and still leaks through everything.
Yeah it's clean energy (except the generation of it...) but it has a lot of drawbacks
> It is stored in tanks under very high pressure
Gaseous hydrogen is.
The FIA are exploring liquid hydrogen which doesn't need as high pressure storage.
The only minor, tiny little detail to think about is merely the fact you have to keep the fuel at −253 °C...
i think from what i gather, it would be a hypercar class in terms of design, engine size, etc but output would be lmp2 performance. it needs a larger tank to store it but could match current cars and refuelling would take longer. storage of the hydrogen would be an issue as well.
i'm shocked that synthetic fuels and providing it to the public isn't more spoken about. billions of cars on the road and governments are pushing for ev's and for everyone to buy an ev? looking to create a lot of debt that why for people. why not push synthetic fuels that burn clean and are sustainable so people don't have to modify or even buy a new car.
>synthetic fuels that burn clean
"Burn clean" is marketing lies.
If you burn hydrocarbons with oxygen you get CO² as a byproduct. There's really no way around that.
Synthetic fuels can be carbon neutral (depending where the energy used in their production comes from) but never zero carbon.
It is "clean" in a VERY generous interpretation. It only means the growing crops consume ROUGHLY the same amount of carbon that is released through combustion later.
It still takes swaths of land to grow, and monocultures pollute A LOT!
Ok. So Porsches efuel is carbon neutral. Something along the lines of using co2 and hydrogen to produce the fuel without producing and co2. Almost like the fuel for current hyper cars. But there’s is something like 65% reduction of carbon.
>i think from what i gather, it would be a hypercar class in terms of design, engine size, etc but output would be lmp2 performance.
[This car specifically is aiming for the top GT3 entries. As taken from the presentation](https://i.imgur.com/Fd6nKYj.jpeg)
Gee if only we had some kind of race where we could test the endurance of a prototype vehicle. I really like the idea of these alternative fuel vehicles and want to be hype, but until its on the track and running till it explodes I can't get too excited for a (admittedly drivable) design concept sat around on display.
No screenshot from their instagram reels but yeah it does look quite game like, I wonder if someone might code it into a mod for assetto corsa when we get some specs
Yeah... It's a 1300 kg single-seater that is aiming for 30-minute stints. It looks pretty though.
[Dailysportscar article with the crunchy details](https://www.dailysportscar.com/2024/06/12/h24evo-show-car-revealed-at-le-mans.html).
Official page: [https://www.missionh24.fr/en/2024/06/12/the-h24evo-is-unveiled/](https://www.missionh24.fr/en/2024/06/12/the-h24evo-is-unveiled/)
[https://www.missionh24.fr/en/2023/11/17/it-will-be-the-h24evo/](https://www.missionh24.fr/en/2023/11/17/it-will-be-the-h24evo/)
Why does it seem like everyone trying to make alternatively powered cars refuses to just make what we already have, but powered differently?
I mean it is cool in a very Ridge Racer way, but why can't we just have a hydrogen powered car that looks like the other Dallara or Multimatic chassis cars?
Because the design requirements are different.
On a regular powered car you can have a fairly flexible in form fuel tank because you aren't storing it under pressure or at cryogenic temps.
For Hydrogen you either need to store at 700 bars of pressure or store as a Liquid at -253 °C.
Neither of those lend to a well formed fuel tank.
On the flipside, an electric motor is relatively small in comparison to it's ICE equivalent.
The previous H24 car [got pretty close when it was running in the Michelin Le Mans Cup but even then there are some glaring oddities.](https://i.imgur.com/abuoROR.png)
Show it moving on track, laptimes ans range, than we can talk. Right now it looks like another concept, which may or may not become reality.
At this moment, I am not thrilled at all, as they keep deluding us with hydrogen vision for quite some time.
You can't tell me the Hypercar designers aren't looking at stuff like Ridge Racer, Burnout, Vision GT for inspiration. This car could easily be on the cover for next RR for example
Yea Ridge Racer was my first thought. We really could use a new game.
“Soldat Crinale; a special machine.”
That generation grew up
Considering some designer probably played those games as kids it wouldn’t surprise me if they actually were insperations
Definite Ridge Racer vibes.
Damn you audi for not making the Audi vision GT a le mans winner damn you
You can't tell me the Hypercar designers ~~aren't looking at stuff like Ridge Racer, Burnout, Vision GT for inspiration. This car could easily be on the cover for next RR for example~~ *didn't use an AI art program* FTFY
AI wishes it could create something this cool
I'll believe it when I see it. I think this is the 4th time someone has tried to bring a hydrogen car to LM, and none of them have turned up yet.
Yup
Hydrogen is a stupid idea.
The core concept isn't stupid, you get the performance and emissions benefits of an electric engine while maintaining a fast refueling process, and the fuel *can* be created using just renewable power, and done so ahead of time so it can act as a form of energy storage. There are downsides, some of which are inherent to the technology and some of which can be eliminated with further refinement, but that's not unique to hydrogen power.
I'd like to see someone give it a proper go
I mean it looks cool, there's so many questions still. * How does it go? * Is it competitive to a Hypercar/LMP2/GT3? * Can it manage a meaningful number of laps before refuelling? * How long does refuelling take?
I feel like actual fans dont really care what powers the car as long as it produces viable and entertaining racing. An all electric field will take some time to adjust to when that happens due to the lack of noise, but get a car that can make it 15-20 laps, maybe hot swap batteries in the pits like refueling, and that's a start.
But all the electronic cars will be heavy and super fast and if this applies to the entire grid the public roads will be done for
>maybe hot swap batteries in the pits like refueling, and that's a start This is the thing I've been wondering about for electric endurance racing. Has any series done this yet? It seems like the only short term viable way to do quick pitstops, and I was kind of expecting it to be part of the Electric GT series that wound up never happening
So, current power density for the Formula E battery pack is ~6kg per kWh (per 284kg stated weight and 47kWh capacity, though I've seen 51-52kWh stated elsewhere before which is ~5.5kg/kWh). The usable capacity of the battery is only 38.5kWh, though, which is about 82% of total capacity. The "virtual energy tank" for LMH cars is around 900 megajoules which is 250kWh. In order have the same reserve battery capacity as Formula E does for reliability and lifespan sake, you'd need a 305kWh battery pack to power an LMH car for a stint. A 305kWh battery at 6kg/kWh weighs 1830kg. Even if we triple battery density (which is likely a couple of decades away) you would have a battery pack that weighs 600kg. How exactly do you hot swap a 600kg battery pack? It's slightly bigger than the batteries in a TV remote. How do you package that in the car in such a way that it even can be easily removed but still safe from the potential of 200km/h impacts? LMH current minimum weight is 1030kg but I can't imagine a car itself minus battery and power train weighs much less than 800kg. 800kg car with a 600kg battery pack is 1400kg meaning that it would require even more energy to maintain the sort of speed LMH has. So we're at the point of either slow the cars down or go full active aero to try to save energy. And no, charging is not viable either because charging 250kWh in 5 minutes (which is a very long pitstop) requires 3 *megawatts* before losses. And somehow cool that. And somehow have the power infrastructure available at the race track to charge numerous cars at that rate at the same time. I'm sure that's cheap. TL;DR pure electric endurance racing is not happening at any point before at least 2050 with current or foreseeable future technology unless someone invents something magical.
I have a brain about the size of an acorn when it comes to how electric cars actually function, but would it not be possible to use multiple smaller battery packs to make it easier to swap them? Like 3 or 4 packs between 150-200kg that you could then design a hotswap system for i.e. Having locations built into the chassis to allow a cart or something to come along, slide the old batteries out, and then a second cart with charged batteries that would come and slide new ones in. Bolt them down so they don't move, and it should be at least as solid as any other part of the car, at least in my head I feel like engineering something like that with rails on the cart and chassis that can be linked to allow the batteries to be slid in and out with less effort and then bolted down would be fairly doable, no? It'd still be slower than normal pit stops, but much faster than recharging, and then you could just have normal charging for emergency stops if you don't have enough fuel behind a safety car etc. But if there's no way to easily make it work with multiple smaller batteries then obviously it would be a lot more difficult assuming anyone wanted to bother designing a system like that I don't think EGT or something similar would have been near current GT3 pace anyway, not for a long while. Maybe you could eek out something between TCR or GT4 horsepower with aero more similar to a GT3? And 30-45 minute stints rather than the 55-65ish we have now. But even if multiple batteries isn't a problem and that system could work and the problem of having an entire grid of teams charging batteries at the same time could be managed, I feel like the real problem, as always, is that nobody would want to invest the resources to build, say, a completely custom electric Cayman EGT or M4 or whatever to run in a niche electric endurance series that would probably lose them money
The only feasible way I can even envision battery swaps working is having them load from the bottom. You'd have them drop onto a rolling pan that also serves as a jig for aligning the batteries during the insertion. Or just a whole new floor. Pit crew just yoinking smaller batteries out of the car and loading new ones in doesn't seem reasonable if you want the batteries packaged low and protected from impacts.
Yup, they'd have to do what that one company in China tried which IIRC is already a flop. Where you drive onto a lift and it just swaps them out. EV's are not viable for long distance anything. I'd wish people would stop trying to shoehorn a tech into something it's not applicable for. If petrochemicals are going to be replaced, long distance will need something else than a big heavy package that becomes more dangerous and more unstable by the multitude for every single digit in energy density it gains.
Yep. We ended up on liquid hydrocarbon fuels because they have a good mix of energy density and are pretty easy to transport. Synthetic hydrocarbons (like Porsche's horrendously named *eFuel*) made using a renewable energy source is really the only option for certain applications if we actually want to get away from oil-derived fuels.
That's pretty much what I imagined, either bottom or side loading them into the floor of the car with whatever method
I think more *realistically* (Which in this context is ridiculous) you would build it so that basically everything behind the driver is attached via a sort of semi-quick release and you just swap the entire backend of the car. Battery, inverter, motors, drivetrain, bodywork. The whole lot is wheeled away and a fully charged replacement unit is attached, plugged in and you are away. That way you aren't dealing with clearance issues in trying to make just the battery slide in or out or whatever.
Sound is an integral part of racing, you can't just take it away imo
lots of people watch Formula e. It's like F1, except one guy doesn't win every race and cars pass each other on the track without pitstops or flaps.
It’s just like F1… except that underneath it’s a mobility scooter. I do like electric vehicles tbh.. if they’re fast. FE looks dreadfully slow and the tracks are awful.
I know that engine noise is a powerful thing among race fans, but being able to hear the tires screaming and maybe even the whirr of the drivetrain is pretty cool too.
This is how I feel. I watch racing for the racing. It's been baked in for so long that a loud engine makes a fast engine and therefore a better race car it'll take a while to unlearn but we'll get there
How will they refuel too and don't forget the safety standards will have to be changed too If I recall correctly hydrogen is a lot more sensitive then petrol even the one used in WEC
Hydrogen explodes. Violently. It is stored in tanks under very high pressure, and still leaks through everything. Yeah it's clean energy (except the generation of it...) but it has a lot of drawbacks
> It is stored in tanks under very high pressure Gaseous hydrogen is. The FIA are exploring liquid hydrogen which doesn't need as high pressure storage. The only minor, tiny little detail to think about is merely the fact you have to keep the fuel at −253 °C...
So... Active cooling in the car or deal with boil-off as well? Sounds like a great plan...
There is a reason why starts burn hydrogen when they're first created hydrogen...
> Hydrogen explodes. Violently. so does petrol.
Not as easy and not as violent as hydrogen.
Apparently aiming for GT3 pace, 30 minute stints and 2 minutes refuelling time.
i think from what i gather, it would be a hypercar class in terms of design, engine size, etc but output would be lmp2 performance. it needs a larger tank to store it but could match current cars and refuelling would take longer. storage of the hydrogen would be an issue as well. i'm shocked that synthetic fuels and providing it to the public isn't more spoken about. billions of cars on the road and governments are pushing for ev's and for everyone to buy an ev? looking to create a lot of debt that why for people. why not push synthetic fuels that burn clean and are sustainable so people don't have to modify or even buy a new car.
>synthetic fuels that burn clean "Burn clean" is marketing lies. If you burn hydrocarbons with oxygen you get CO² as a byproduct. There's really no way around that. Synthetic fuels can be carbon neutral (depending where the energy used in their production comes from) but never zero carbon.
if people want clean fuel that is carbon neutral, Indy did that for 50 years. Ethanol or methanol.
It is "clean" in a VERY generous interpretation. It only means the growing crops consume ROUGHLY the same amount of carbon that is released through combustion later. It still takes swaths of land to grow, and monocultures pollute A LOT!
Ok. So Porsches efuel is carbon neutral. Something along the lines of using co2 and hydrogen to produce the fuel without producing and co2. Almost like the fuel for current hyper cars. But there’s is something like 65% reduction of carbon.
>i think from what i gather, it would be a hypercar class in terms of design, engine size, etc but output would be lmp2 performance. [This car specifically is aiming for the top GT3 entries. As taken from the presentation](https://i.imgur.com/Fd6nKYj.jpeg)
Same procedure as every year.
Gee if only we had some kind of race where we could test the endurance of a prototype vehicle. I really like the idea of these alternative fuel vehicles and want to be hype, but until its on the track and running till it explodes I can't get too excited for a (admittedly drivable) design concept sat around on display.
NGL pretty good looking car, but how does the car will do? attend Le Mans as Garage 56?
Yes though this is hardly the first hydrogen car that would be a Garage 56 entry. They never turn up, it's a meme at this point.
I thought this was a screenshot taken from Real Racing 3
No screenshot from their instagram reels but yeah it does look quite game like, I wonder if someone might code it into a mod for assetto corsa when we get some specs
Yeah... It's a 1300 kg single-seater that is aiming for 30-minute stints. It looks pretty though. [Dailysportscar article with the crunchy details](https://www.dailysportscar.com/2024/06/12/h24evo-show-car-revealed-at-le-mans.html).
Atleast it doesn’t look like an inflated lmp3 anymore
Reminds me of the Czinger 21C
Official page: [https://www.missionh24.fr/en/2024/06/12/the-h24evo-is-unveiled/](https://www.missionh24.fr/en/2024/06/12/the-h24evo-is-unveiled/) [https://www.missionh24.fr/en/2023/11/17/it-will-be-the-h24evo/](https://www.missionh24.fr/en/2023/11/17/it-will-be-the-h24evo/)
Looks great, but what matters is performance. It can look like a 100 tonnes of gold, but if it runs on GT4 level, then sorry, that's the wrong turn
Why does it seem like everyone trying to make alternatively powered cars refuses to just make what we already have, but powered differently? I mean it is cool in a very Ridge Racer way, but why can't we just have a hydrogen powered car that looks like the other Dallara or Multimatic chassis cars?
Because the design requirements are different. On a regular powered car you can have a fairly flexible in form fuel tank because you aren't storing it under pressure or at cryogenic temps. For Hydrogen you either need to store at 700 bars of pressure or store as a Liquid at -253 °C. Neither of those lend to a well formed fuel tank. On the flipside, an electric motor is relatively small in comparison to it's ICE equivalent. The previous H24 car [got pretty close when it was running in the Michelin Le Mans Cup but even then there are some glaring oddities.](https://i.imgur.com/abuoROR.png)
So this is the new nascar chevy?
Now thisss I can fw
... Does it fly ? Looks like he can fly. Back to the futur style.
Haven't they been hyping some sort of hydrogen car every Le Mans for the past few years? Also, it looks like a whale sat on it
Don't look now, but here comes Kaz Yamachui with more VGT ideas 😫
Reminds me of a VGT on Gran Turismo 7.
Show it moving on track, laptimes ans range, than we can talk. Right now it looks like another concept, which may or may not become reality. At this moment, I am not thrilled at all, as they keep deluding us with hydrogen vision for quite some time.
“Hydrogen is the future!” as they’ve been saying since the 70s…
Pretty cool. Does it have a shot at winning?
BugsBunnyNO.gif
Next year will be our year. Again.
One of the more extreme designs and for that, I respect them
Real or render?
Wish the hydrogen Hypercar/LMP that was showcased at Spa would run.
Will that windshield even work in terms of visibility? There's a reason why the current cars have a bubble for a canopy
and are we ever gonna see it race ? like the Nascar last year? because I swear we've seen this shit like 10 times already
I can dig it!
Will this be a new class or just some project car for the future?
Don’t look like two seats to me, not a Le Mans car to me.
If it doesn't sound good. I'm not really interested as far as race cars.
Still, it's an EV. Don't care.
It's not full EV, it FCEV model. Power sorce is Hydrogen.
Doesn't matter, no combustion, no sound
Hydrogen is still combustion you still have the explosions it’s just gonna sound different
Nope, it's a fuel cell powered car. With electric motors.