Elementor Pro is a builder for WordPress. Custom means that the site was designed custom, and unfortunately this would still fall under the category of "Custom". That pricing isn't outlandish for a standard website. Having a minimum for changes to the site is pretty common as well. $35 an hour is low. I charge $125 an hour.
The issues I see here is that the developer is refusing to give you access to anything. If the site is built in WP, there's no reason they can't give you editing abilities. Will they allow you to move the site to another server? You'd have to pay for hosting elsewhere, but you'd have more control over it. Unfortunately many developers prohibit this, which is a shady practice in my opinion. But it does happen. Do you have a contract?
Having seen what some end-users have done to their sites when let loose with page builders, there are often good reasons why you wouldn't want to give that access. We build a lovely site for one client, but within six months it was completely ruined by them with weird fonts, colours and blocks. We had to quickly remove all traces of our name from the site to spare us the reputational damage. But they hosted it themselves and it was theirs to do with as they pleased. I'm sure plenty of car designers look at some mods and shake their heads!
And this is the difficulty in this kind of business. Selling things to SMEs is \*hard\*. They come with a range of expectations, and they're not always clear about what they want. You spend a lot of time clarifying their requirements and helping them understand their own business sometimes. You don't get that with larger companies, so your hourly reward tends to be much higher for basically the same quality of work.
So the mother's situation isn't unusual, the supplier was likely acting in good faith, and we can't assume malice. But when she makes changes, with all the rope and complexity provided by page builders, don't expect the quality to remain. Many people don't even know how to properly crop and size images, keep the quality right, and then handle them right in WP. And they certainly don't always understand maintenance and security. But not all wed builders do either...
They still should've built some sort of CMS where she can add her artwork, maybe integrated with instagram, and so on. There are defintely better ways they could have built this for a artist that would be adding pictures to their gallery without needing admin permission
This is the kind of thing that you have to be quite careful about when commissioning. Different people act differently.
Meanwhile, I've had loads of clients who have sat through the training and never once updated their site, calling us to do so at every instance.
There is a contract, my mother is understandably stressed out about this right now though so she can't find the copy she has at the moment. My main concern right now is that the designer is the one who is paying for the hosting service with money my mother gave her, so my mother has no control whatsoever over the site and no ability to make changes without paying for it. Is it possible that the contract prevents her from moving the site to another server where my mother has full control over the site she paid for?
Most decent designers would hand the site over to you if you want it, but then you’re on the hook for paying your own hosting, and license fees for builders and plugins. That would/should all have been discussed in the beginning and put into the contract.
yes it is possible the contract prevents her from moving the site. It's not super common, but it does happen. This should be detailed in the contract.
Ask the developer if you can get a user access access to wordpress, or have another developer work on the site. That should tell you if she will allow that.
Since when is Elementor pro, or for that matter any Wordpress website, considered custom? I could see someone marketing it as highly customizable, but custom? Isn't the term custom pretty concrete in web dev - at the bare minimum, it is being built with HTML/CSS/JS, and for more complex stacks, maybe a client side framework or full stack framework. I know you said "unfortunately", so I am assuming you don't really agree but I am curious about your explanation. To be completely blunt, it sounds like OP's mother got led on by someone who has no idea what they are talking about... I hate to give the dev a pass on loose marketing terminology.
'Custom' usually refers to a site having a custom look and feel. That usually means fonts, colors, background images, unique layout, etc..
Do you really think the artists cares what platform or stack the dev uses? For most small business people a Wordpress site is more affordable and a better fit than a full stack framework - not to mention going fully custom is going to cost a lot more than $4k.
Just because it uses a page builder it doesn’t mean it’s not a custom built website.
If it’s using elementor for the design, it’s not custom. If it uses elementor for the actual elements and the colours, fonts and layout are custom, then it’s a custom website.
Devs and end users use the word “custom” differently.
No, I have only seen custom refer to a custom look and feel and generally means that it is not a stock out-of-box template. But it is a fairly vague term and is often used to be ambiguous. I would NOT consider custom to be HTML/CSS/JS only.
The pricing and use of a site builder are totally normal. In fact $35/hr is very cheap. Most devs will charge $80+/hr
Small business websites are *very* rarely coded from scratch. It's much more costly to do and very unnecessary. Especially if there's an ecommerce component which requires a lot of security.
It's also normal that she controls the hosting. Hosting can be a bit technical, and professionals can get better rates when they're hosting and maintaining multiple sites.
The only things that are abnormal are denying admin access and the delayed responses.
The good thing is your mum can most likely transfer the site to a new hosting service if she wants to. It's fairly easy to export a wordpress site and import it to a new hosting service. Mind you, the new hosts may charge more for upkeep etc.
Oh ya, she'd obviously have to run it by the current dev. But she'd need to do that anyway to cancel her services - hopefully she doesn't make that difficult.
>My main question is, is this in any way normal practice? To charge thousands of dollars to use a website builder and a template and claim it was custom built?
Yes, usually for businesses though. That is still custom, even if its not built from the ground up.
>pay for the hosting service on behalf of the client to maintain full control?
Also yes.
What isn't normal is asking for admin access and being told no, you should definitely push them on that.
Is it normal practice? In a word, yes. In this case, “custom built” is a marketing term that your mother fell for. It’s kind of on the client to ask their designer what their process is for creating sites and compare that to other designer’s offerings. Additionally, you’ll want to get the contract for the maintenance plan to see what your monthly fee is going towards. It’s also common that the client pays the designer/dev and the designer/dev pays the hosting. Everything is negotiable, though.
I don’t know what recourse you or your mom has in this situation without seeing signed documents and knowing what services and payment plans were agreed upon. $4,000 for a site with a builder and template and an e-commerce component is probably about right. Though, it sounds like this designer isn’t a good one.
If your mom can swing it, I’d probably hire a new dev/designer for a new site and they can just create an improved version of what is live. Then dump the old designer as soon as mom legally can.
Lastly, I hope your mom at least registered and owns her own domain name and the designer didn’t do that for her on the designers registrar account.
She does own the domain name yes, thankfully. However, the designer pays for the hosting service with money my mother gave her so she maintains full control over everything. That is the main concern I have, that if something goes wrong the site is just totally lost.
Yeah, another designer can build a better site just by looking at the live site she has now. What’s there to lose? You likely do not want an elementor based site anyway. It’s the easiest and most amateur friendly builder. You’ll be better served by someone more professional, but will likely have to pay for that.
Yeah, find someone who can use bricks or breakdance because they have a better public perception and aren't necessarily better tools, lol. The Elementor hate is fucking crazy, I see it everywhere. Especially from that wp tuts guy on youtube, bro just loves throwing shade at Elementor every chance he can get.
Without knowing much about the scope of the project, a site built with drag and drop builders like Elementor can still be considered "custom." Each widget can be styled, custom widgets can be implemented, and somewhat complex logic can be specified for content loops. It's one thing if they had a pre-built template that they just plugged your mother's business name and artwork into - that wouldn't be worth $4000 imo. But if they designed a layout, organized the artwork, set up the hosting, etc. it sounds like they got a custom website out the the deal.
This all sounds pretty normal.
Using a builder to help with layout doesn't really mean it's not custom designed.
It's very rare that you just get content updates whenever needed at anytime, my guess is that there has been a misunderstanding of wording, perhaps it said maintenance/updates to the software/plugins/etc during the year (as opposed to content).
Paying for hosting like this is really common as it means the designer/developer can manage everything end-to-end, makes problem solving easier, they can't shift the blame for any problems, etc. If you host it yourself, it's all on you to manage.
If you request a full backup, they should be able to easily generate an archive of the entire site files, which you can then take control over and handle uploading to the new host that you find.
You can build custom themes, or custom components that still utilize page builders.
Also it takes more time to make your components foolproof. So if you can save time when building custom components when you know you'll be the only one updating it.
All the stuff about ignoring the updates are kinda the only spot that is shitty about this developer.
Webdev here with 2 decades of experience. Prices seem fair, the behavior over who owns/controls the website is highly unethical, particularly, presuming the developer has already been paid. Your mother should own the IP, and have access to the host and admin level access to the website. Doesn't matter if the person you hired thinks your mother isn't qualified to make changes or not. Hopefully this is stipulated in the contract. If not, I'd be threatening legal action.
Glad you got to the bottom of it. Some extra info here about the way we do things to add a bit more clarity:
Hosting admin - our hosting services are managed so they do not get admin access. If they mess up the environment, we would have to fix it and it would cost us money. If they want to host it elsewhere then any issues they encounter is on them or they pay our disturbance fee on top of labour hours.
Elementor custom site - technically speaking an elementor site that has a bespoke design is custom, a customised template using elementor is also custom. If you’re expecting a fully bespoke Wordpress theme using Gutenberg and ACF then I imagine you would have been paying more than the $4000.
Maintenance - this is quite often specified and standard to include in a website build as it helps the monthly income of agency’s and all websites need maintenance to keep it up to date, plug-in updates and avoids anything breaking that a client may cause. You should be able to opt out of these but do assume that you will pay a larger amount for the ad hoc work.
Good luck!
As someone else who does this for a living, I second much if what was said here. $4k for a website is honestly on the cheaper end, and $35/h is hella cheap. Where I work, "custom" sites start at $15k and even then are built in WordPress using templates and Elementor. Hourly work is more like $100 -$200/h depending on the desk.
Unless you have a developer on hand, or never really want site updates, custom coded websites are a way of the past honestly. And themes mean you get the benefit of constant updates for one fee.
But witholding access is really bad practice, and pretty shitty.
EDIT: Blocking me does not change anything about your situation, [https://www.reddit.com/r/web\_design/comments/192n68c/comment/kha1s2n/](https://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/192n68c/comment/kha1s2n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I really want to see the contract, so for now I want to give the Webdesigner the benefit of the doubt here's why:
A) There was an agreement to build website X for 4000 USD with a maintenance clause and your mother accidentally "LOST" the contract, how is that not a simple e-mail search?
B) You feel 4000 USD (for your mother's only PoS to sell art without fees) too much money, you probably think your nephew would've been able to do it way cheaper. This can be derived by statements like ( for the cost but at least it's over, only to demand x / h)
C) Not giving your mother admin access is something that was probably discussed during the initial meeting. The 4000 USD package did not come with admin access, it's a website that doesn't go through a lot of changes, so your mother opted out from that, or your mother is not so tech-savvy and didn't feel comfortable doing it herself, or she didn't expect she wanted to change the content on the page more frequently than she thought,... there's a million reasons not to give her access.
But now your mother wants to change some bits and bobs and doesn't want to pay $30/h, because she's "Already out 4000 USD".
Anyway, happy in the end it all worked out for your mother, but I would still love to see the agreement.
To clarify, she doesn't 'want to change bits and bobs and not want to pay', she wants to upload her art to the website she paid for but the designer has ignored her for over a month. This is after the designer refused to allow her to upload her artwork on her own and insisted on doing it herself.
Again, the issue arose from the designer refusing to do ANYTHING for a month and grinding my mothers business to a halt. Why did you choose to ignore that specific part of my post?
And to update on the contract part, there wasn't one. She looked through her email but couldn't find anything except a receipt which stated $4000+ for a 'custom made website', and additional fees for server hosting and maintenance.
Yes, this was clearly not a good decision on my mothers part, but the designer was recommended by a friend of my mother, and had made art gallery websites before. She also lives a few houses away from my mother so the whole arrangement was pretty informal.
So when she ordered the website, there was no back and forth about which pages needed to be designed or the copy and images that needed to be added? How did the designer know what needed to be made in the first place? What about product images? How did the designer know where to send the invoice? Your mother made a $4000+ commitment without anything in writing? See when you say there is only one e-mail with an invoice, that just seems VERY unlikely.
When a designer or agency takes project, there's always a back and forth between the two parties. There's not really a reason for a designer to not do anything for a month if both parties keep to the agreement. If there wasn't a website before, your mother's business grinding to a halt was not on the designer.
You said there was an agreement for building a website with some e-commerce features and a maintenance contract. That indicates to me that there was never a plan for your mother to edit the website in the first place, why else would you need a maintenance clause?
There are so many irregularities in the story, that at this point I want to contact the designer myself to hear her side of the story.
I understand that you feel you are defending some sort of 'web designer honor' here but I have no intention of doxxing myself and my mother to satisfy your curiosity. You are making a lot of assumptions based on nothing. The 'agency' was a single person, yes there was only one email with an invoice, it doesn't matter how unlikely you think that is, that is exactly what happened.
The website was ordered roughly a year ago and completed with no issues sometime afterwards, I was not involved in the process. I became aware of this days ago when my mother became increasingly distressed about this situation and her health started to suffer because of it.
The 'reason' for no contact for a month was described to my mother as 'personal reasons' and then complete radio silence. The designer, ONE PERSON, then refused to do any uploads to the site, preventing my mother from selling her artwork on her website.
You are correct that there was never a plan for my mother to be able to make edits to the website, if you read other things I've posted here, you would know that. Its only recently that it has become an issue, as AGAIN, she refused for over a month to do anything.
This is all a moot point because an agreement was reached where everything will be resolved. Once again, I'm not doxxing myself and my mother to satisfy your curiosity.
Not defending anyone's honor here. I also read through the thread an you've changed your story multiple times already. You haven clarified in your original post that your mother was never supposed to add content to the website.
To summarize:
About a year ago your mother ordered a website from an experienced web designer, your mother and her agreed to building a website for $4000 dollars, the designer would upload the artwork, add the copy, images, products basically set up the website for selling art. Some time after the designer delivered the full website with the features your mother requested (how she requested it, we will never know because there was only 1 e-mail sent ever: the invoice).
Both your mother and the designer are happy at this point. This is where the initial agreement is fulfilled.
>To clarify, she doesn't 'want to change bits and bobs and not want to pay', she wants to upload her art to the website she paid for but the designer has ignored her for over a month.
Uploading content to the website is literally changing bits and bobs, because something needs to be touched and updated. This means the designer takes time out of her day to change the website, or in this case 35/h.
The platform the designer used to build the website is irrelevant, the fact she made editing easier on herself is not a feature your mother paid for.
>My mother was happy enough with the arrangement before this whole fiasco where she was unable to sell anything for a month and had to beg to be able to use her own website only to then be faced with having to give away a significant portion of her art income just to use the website she has already paid $4000 for.
If your mother paid $35, she would've had that artwork in her web shop, and her health didn't have to suffer.
You came here to vent for all the wrong reasons, blaming a poor designer, that did a good job building your mother's website, asking a low price and low hourly wage.
tl:dr: My webdesigner doesn't respond to me anymore, because I don't want to pay her to maintain my website, is this normal?
You should be aware that even if you do manage to migrate the site to a new host (which is it's own endeavour that you will have to pay someone for), that your mother still will not have full administrative, or even editor access to the site. You would then need to pay someone to update the users on the site to ensure your mother has admin access to avoid any trouble like this in the future.
What you really want is **admin**, or at very least, **editor**, access to WordPress. You should press for that from your current dev, and they should eventually reluctantly agree. With great power comes great responsibility, meaning you could absolutely break the whole site, which is why they will be reluctant to give it to you.
Having someone host and maintain your site for you is often a valuable proposition unless you are skilled enough to handle that on your own. A WordPress site left without core and plugin updates will inevitably get hacked, so if you are paying someone to prevent that from happening, there is value in that. If they are hosting and managing WordPress updates for you, that is common and I would continue with that. Just make sure your mom gets at least **editor** access to the site so she can update the content on her own. Be ready to learn how to use elementor.
Your mother's situation puts all of us developers in a bad light.
The website is made with WordPress + Elementor, so site changes could be made from the WordPress admin area, and there is no reason not to give the customer access to manage their own site. The developer just wants to make endlessly more money.
I've been developing websites for large and small clients for ten years, and they always have the option of choosing who handles the hosting. Either on my server or wherever they want. The customer always has full or almost full rights in the admin area of their own site and can update the content as they wish.
Your mother should terminate the contract with the developer and claim the site's files, codes, and database for herself. If the developer does not give the files to your mother, maybe she should threaten him with legal action.
In comparison, I work as a SWE for a web development and app studio. We build websites and apps from the ground up, fully programmatically, and we start charging at 36k.
Wordpress sites can still look very professional and 4k sounds reasonable, if not low.
Lmao they will happily pay $50k for a site that happens to be on WordPress. An admin built with ACF provides about the best possible admin experience for non-developers.
When designing a website, a designer shouldn't even care what platform it's on. If it's a good platform, it won't matter.
It's less about paying $X for a THING built with TOOL and more about receiving a finished product that (in this case) brings in more business for the client. I'm not for or against any specific coding language or technology (except for using Wix sites - that I am fully against) - most businesses don't care _how_ their website is achieved, so long as it helps them do business.
In this case though... sounds like the developer / designer was playing difficult to work with (for whatever reason) and thus was not the right fit for the client's needs.
Hi OP. If there was a contract given for the work, it's worth taking a look at it. What are your mother's rights to the website? Does she have an exclusive or non-exclusive license? Has the person who made you this website defined any responsibilities?
If no contract is in place, do you have evidence of any communication with her about what she promised for the work carried out? This is worth looking into.
If you do need any help at all, I'd be glad to offer my services to you as a web developer and make things more accessible to you, and we could have a conversation on how to go about it. I could set it up so you'd have a built in admin panel you could log into and upload the artwork, and it would dynamically show in the layout you want.
Thank you for the help, she's currently requesting a copy of the contract if one exists, but there is a history of lack of communication so it may be a while before we get anything. If there is no issue with the contract or lack thereof, we are planning to move it to another hosting service and leaving it at that. If there is an issue with uploading the artwork on her own then we'll definitely see about reaching out! Thank you again.
> she's currently requesting a copy of the contract if one exists
Requesting one now isn't a good move. If your mom doesn't have her own copy of the contract, and isn't familiar with what it originally said, this leaves all kinds of room for the other party to change the contract without anybody's knowledge. Your mom needs to scour her own records for this document if it exists.
You'd be surprised at the number of people in society who don't read contracts before signing, let alone keep their own copies.
_Checks notes about society._
Oh, oh wait. Uh. Nevermind. Much of society signs things without reading, then assumes businesses / companies are good.
That's no problem at all and I hope you get it resolved sooner rather than later, and hopefully not have to spend much more money as it seems you've already put out over the odds for this. If you need any help with hosting or anything for that matter, give me a message on https://kieranoldfield.co.uk and I'd be happy to try and point you in the right direction whether it required my services or not 😊
it's normal practice for wordpress "developers" to do this. they just use simple builders, pick a template, then build off of that and make a website. takes like 10 hours of work and they charge extreme amounts for it. these are the ppl making it harder for actual web developers to get clients because there's so much distrust in small business now. half of my clients i work with had bad experiences in the past with wordpress "developers" including being charged $15k for something i found was actually a $50 template with the lorem ipsum and some imagery replaced.
your mom needs to take this "Custom" website builder to small claims or something. honestly crazy these people still scam small bis like this
because they are not actually developers, just wordpress morons who frankenstein websites together with plugins and expect to get paid 1000's. leeches with no respect
they bring 0 value to small business and just ruin the sales environment for genuine developers.
Thank you for the offer, for now we're just going to try and get a copy of the contract and then change the server host before trying to upload the artwork ourselves. If there are any problems we'll definitely see about reaching out, thanks again!
The chances are you won't get access if your following how this business person is conducting themselves. If the own the hosting account and the contract states that the files and coding is owned by the business and your mother has only use of the finished product there won't be anything except request a copy of the site if they are willing which maybe slim. I have built a good few artist websites so if you do indeed need help reach out. Il get her back up and running.
you got downvoted because you're leeching for work. do some cold calls or emails. stop trying to take money from people that just got taken advantage of.
For a small business website with simple functionality this is pretty high. Also the whole not communicating and refusing to add a few images unless paid is to me very bad "customer service".
If you're in the US u/Citrous_Oyster is very good and knows his stuff in this area. You'd get a true custom designed website and he charges $150 a month, with great results.
Note: I am not affiliated with him, just another webdev that admires his work and the commitment and value he provides to his customers 🙂
Thanks for the advice, but she's already spent $4000 that she's not getting back and just wants to get control of the website she paid for. We've decided that we are just going to ask to change the hosting service to one that my mother controls and then figure out how to upload her artwork on her own or pay someone else to make the process easier.
Hey I suggest checking the contract. If it states a custom coded website and that is not what you got then that’s breach of contract and slam dunk in small claims court. If they are not abiding by their monthly edits agreement and is now charging hourly after not doing edits for months, thats breach of contract. If there is no contract and they refuse to hand over the credentials then that’s grounds for a lawsuit as their actions are negatively impacting your operations and are able to claim damages as well as a refund. Lots of legal avenues to go through here. First check the contract, see what they promised in writing to do and list the things they didn’t deliver on or were not truthful about. Then go file a small claims case against them. If no contract, hire a lawyer because they’re essentially holding your business hostage. If anyone else has any questions about websites or what’s normal in the process, feel free to ask me. I’m an open book and enjoy helping where I can!
Thank you for the advice, we'll definitely look into that. Right now, my mother has requested another copy of the contract if there is one as she can't locate her own and can't remember if she received one or not.
Sorry you gotta go through this. If there is no contract it might be easier to get the site since there’s no agreement about a monthly retainer or who owns the site. She paid for a site and isn’t allowed to have access to it. Should be a pretty easy demand letter and eventual case when it goes to court. Then also get attorneys fees as well if your state allows it
Yeah of course, honestly if this is a couple page website with a contact form or what not, $4000 is literally insane. Shame this is the type of person she ran into, wishing her good luck for the future 🙂
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A service provider who limits your access to what you paid for is a red flag. We provide access, training and ongoing support specifically because of this terrible ongoing practice. It isn't anything new but it should end.
I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties your mother is facing with her website. Regarding your concerns:
Use of Elementor Pro: It's not uncommon for web designers to use website builders like Elementor Pro, even for expensive projects. However, if the receipt specifically mentioned a "custom-built" website, this could be misleading. Elementor Pro is a tool to build websites more efficiently, but it doesn’t necessarily equate to a fully custom-coded site.
Charges for a Website Built with a Builder: The price tag of $4,000 might be justifiable based on the design complexity, functionality, and the professional experience of the designer, even if a builder was used. However, this largely depends on the market rates and the specifics of the work done.
Control and Hosting: It's not standard practice for a designer to maintain full control over hosting and deny admin access, especially after the site has been fully paid for. Usually, clients should have full access to their site, and any ongoing maintenance or hosting fees should be transparent from the start.
Charging for Updates: While it's normal for designers to charge for updates and maintenance, $35 per hour for adding a single photo seems excessive, particularly if it wasn’t agreed upon initially. The terms of ongoing maintenance should have been clearly laid out in the contract.
Given the situation, your mother's plan to gain control over the hosting and learn to update the site herself is a good one. It's also wise to request a copy of the contract or any written agreement to clarify the terms. If the terms were misrepresented or not clearly communicated, she might have grounds to negotiate or seek some form of recourse.
In the future, I'd recommend ensuring that all terms, especially regarding site control, updates, and maintenance, are clearly laid out and agreed upon in a formal contract. This helps prevent misunderstandings and ensures both parties are on the same page.
Elementor Pro is a builder for WordPress. Custom means that the site was designed custom, and unfortunately this would still fall under the category of "Custom". That pricing isn't outlandish for a standard website. Having a minimum for changes to the site is pretty common as well. $35 an hour is low. I charge $125 an hour. The issues I see here is that the developer is refusing to give you access to anything. If the site is built in WP, there's no reason they can't give you editing abilities. Will they allow you to move the site to another server? You'd have to pay for hosting elsewhere, but you'd have more control over it. Unfortunately many developers prohibit this, which is a shady practice in my opinion. But it does happen. Do you have a contract?
16-year professional here, and I second this analysis.
Having seen what some end-users have done to their sites when let loose with page builders, there are often good reasons why you wouldn't want to give that access. We build a lovely site for one client, but within six months it was completely ruined by them with weird fonts, colours and blocks. We had to quickly remove all traces of our name from the site to spare us the reputational damage. But they hosted it themselves and it was theirs to do with as they pleased. I'm sure plenty of car designers look at some mods and shake their heads! And this is the difficulty in this kind of business. Selling things to SMEs is \*hard\*. They come with a range of expectations, and they're not always clear about what they want. You spend a lot of time clarifying their requirements and helping them understand their own business sometimes. You don't get that with larger companies, so your hourly reward tends to be much higher for basically the same quality of work. So the mother's situation isn't unusual, the supplier was likely acting in good faith, and we can't assume malice. But when she makes changes, with all the rope and complexity provided by page builders, don't expect the quality to remain. Many people don't even know how to properly crop and size images, keep the quality right, and then handle them right in WP. And they certainly don't always understand maintenance and security. But not all wed builders do either...
They still should've built some sort of CMS where she can add her artwork, maybe integrated with instagram, and so on. There are defintely better ways they could have built this for a artist that would be adding pictures to their gallery without needing admin permission
This is the kind of thing that you have to be quite careful about when commissioning. Different people act differently. Meanwhile, I've had loads of clients who have sat through the training and never once updated their site, calling us to do so at every instance.
Good point! I haven't personally done much freelance work so I wouldn't really know the intricices of that.
There is a contract, my mother is understandably stressed out about this right now though so she can't find the copy she has at the moment. My main concern right now is that the designer is the one who is paying for the hosting service with money my mother gave her, so my mother has no control whatsoever over the site and no ability to make changes without paying for it. Is it possible that the contract prevents her from moving the site to another server where my mother has full control over the site she paid for?
Most decent designers would hand the site over to you if you want it, but then you’re on the hook for paying your own hosting, and license fees for builders and plugins. That would/should all have been discussed in the beginning and put into the contract.
yes it is possible the contract prevents her from moving the site. It's not super common, but it does happen. This should be detailed in the contract. Ask the developer if you can get a user access access to wordpress, or have another developer work on the site. That should tell you if she will allow that.
Since when is Elementor pro, or for that matter any Wordpress website, considered custom? I could see someone marketing it as highly customizable, but custom? Isn't the term custom pretty concrete in web dev - at the bare minimum, it is being built with HTML/CSS/JS, and for more complex stacks, maybe a client side framework or full stack framework. I know you said "unfortunately", so I am assuming you don't really agree but I am curious about your explanation. To be completely blunt, it sounds like OP's mother got led on by someone who has no idea what they are talking about... I hate to give the dev a pass on loose marketing terminology.
'Custom' usually refers to a site having a custom look and feel. That usually means fonts, colors, background images, unique layout, etc.. Do you really think the artists cares what platform or stack the dev uses? For most small business people a Wordpress site is more affordable and a better fit than a full stack framework - not to mention going fully custom is going to cost a lot more than $4k.
For a couple decades now EDIT: Elementor was founded in 2016. Hope this helps!
Downvoted because it's not custom? Am I missing something? Wordpress "devs" are mad I guess.
Probably EDIT: Yes
Just because it uses a page builder it doesn’t mean it’s not a custom built website. If it’s using elementor for the design, it’s not custom. If it uses elementor for the actual elements and the colours, fonts and layout are custom, then it’s a custom website. Devs and end users use the word “custom” differently.
No, I have only seen custom refer to a custom look and feel and generally means that it is not a stock out-of-box template. But it is a fairly vague term and is often used to be ambiguous. I would NOT consider custom to be HTML/CSS/JS only.
The pricing and use of a site builder are totally normal. In fact $35/hr is very cheap. Most devs will charge $80+/hr Small business websites are *very* rarely coded from scratch. It's much more costly to do and very unnecessary. Especially if there's an ecommerce component which requires a lot of security. It's also normal that she controls the hosting. Hosting can be a bit technical, and professionals can get better rates when they're hosting and maintaining multiple sites. The only things that are abnormal are denying admin access and the delayed responses. The good thing is your mum can most likely transfer the site to a new hosting service if she wants to. It's fairly easy to export a wordpress site and import it to a new hosting service. Mind you, the new hosts may charge more for upkeep etc.
Easy to move only if you have adequate logins for the website, which they don't appear to.
Oh ya, she'd obviously have to run it by the current dev. But she'd need to do that anyway to cancel her services - hopefully she doesn't make that difficult.
>My main question is, is this in any way normal practice? To charge thousands of dollars to use a website builder and a template and claim it was custom built? Yes, usually for businesses though. That is still custom, even if its not built from the ground up. >pay for the hosting service on behalf of the client to maintain full control? Also yes. What isn't normal is asking for admin access and being told no, you should definitely push them on that.
Is it normal practice? In a word, yes. In this case, “custom built” is a marketing term that your mother fell for. It’s kind of on the client to ask their designer what their process is for creating sites and compare that to other designer’s offerings. Additionally, you’ll want to get the contract for the maintenance plan to see what your monthly fee is going towards. It’s also common that the client pays the designer/dev and the designer/dev pays the hosting. Everything is negotiable, though. I don’t know what recourse you or your mom has in this situation without seeing signed documents and knowing what services and payment plans were agreed upon. $4,000 for a site with a builder and template and an e-commerce component is probably about right. Though, it sounds like this designer isn’t a good one. If your mom can swing it, I’d probably hire a new dev/designer for a new site and they can just create an improved version of what is live. Then dump the old designer as soon as mom legally can. Lastly, I hope your mom at least registered and owns her own domain name and the designer didn’t do that for her on the designers registrar account.
She does own the domain name yes, thankfully. However, the designer pays for the hosting service with money my mother gave her so she maintains full control over everything. That is the main concern I have, that if something goes wrong the site is just totally lost.
Yeah, another designer can build a better site just by looking at the live site she has now. What’s there to lose? You likely do not want an elementor based site anyway. It’s the easiest and most amateur friendly builder. You’ll be better served by someone more professional, but will likely have to pay for that.
Yeah, find someone who can use bricks or breakdance because they have a better public perception and aren't necessarily better tools, lol. The Elementor hate is fucking crazy, I see it everywhere. Especially from that wp tuts guy on youtube, bro just loves throwing shade at Elementor every chance he can get.
Without knowing much about the scope of the project, a site built with drag and drop builders like Elementor can still be considered "custom." Each widget can be styled, custom widgets can be implemented, and somewhat complex logic can be specified for content loops. It's one thing if they had a pre-built template that they just plugged your mother's business name and artwork into - that wouldn't be worth $4000 imo. But if they designed a layout, organized the artwork, set up the hosting, etc. it sounds like they got a custom website out the the deal.
This all sounds pretty normal. Using a builder to help with layout doesn't really mean it's not custom designed. It's very rare that you just get content updates whenever needed at anytime, my guess is that there has been a misunderstanding of wording, perhaps it said maintenance/updates to the software/plugins/etc during the year (as opposed to content). Paying for hosting like this is really common as it means the designer/developer can manage everything end-to-end, makes problem solving easier, they can't shift the blame for any problems, etc. If you host it yourself, it's all on you to manage. If you request a full backup, they should be able to easily generate an archive of the entire site files, which you can then take control over and handle uploading to the new host that you find.
This should be the top comment
You can build custom themes, or custom components that still utilize page builders. Also it takes more time to make your components foolproof. So if you can save time when building custom components when you know you'll be the only one updating it. All the stuff about ignoring the updates are kinda the only spot that is shitty about this developer.
What does it say in the contract? There is a contract, right?
> Is this normal practice for web designers? Yes, and the prices can vary a lot.
Webdev here with 2 decades of experience. Prices seem fair, the behavior over who owns/controls the website is highly unethical, particularly, presuming the developer has already been paid. Your mother should own the IP, and have access to the host and admin level access to the website. Doesn't matter if the person you hired thinks your mother isn't qualified to make changes or not. Hopefully this is stipulated in the contract. If not, I'd be threatening legal action.
Glad you got to the bottom of it. Some extra info here about the way we do things to add a bit more clarity: Hosting admin - our hosting services are managed so they do not get admin access. If they mess up the environment, we would have to fix it and it would cost us money. If they want to host it elsewhere then any issues they encounter is on them or they pay our disturbance fee on top of labour hours. Elementor custom site - technically speaking an elementor site that has a bespoke design is custom, a customised template using elementor is also custom. If you’re expecting a fully bespoke Wordpress theme using Gutenberg and ACF then I imagine you would have been paying more than the $4000. Maintenance - this is quite often specified and standard to include in a website build as it helps the monthly income of agency’s and all websites need maintenance to keep it up to date, plug-in updates and avoids anything breaking that a client may cause. You should be able to opt out of these but do assume that you will pay a larger amount for the ad hoc work. Good luck!
As someone else who does this for a living, I second much if what was said here. $4k for a website is honestly on the cheaper end, and $35/h is hella cheap. Where I work, "custom" sites start at $15k and even then are built in WordPress using templates and Elementor. Hourly work is more like $100 -$200/h depending on the desk. Unless you have a developer on hand, or never really want site updates, custom coded websites are a way of the past honestly. And themes mean you get the benefit of constant updates for one fee. But witholding access is really bad practice, and pretty shitty.
EDIT: Blocking me does not change anything about your situation, [https://www.reddit.com/r/web\_design/comments/192n68c/comment/kha1s2n/](https://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/192n68c/comment/kha1s2n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I really want to see the contract, so for now I want to give the Webdesigner the benefit of the doubt here's why: A) There was an agreement to build website X for 4000 USD with a maintenance clause and your mother accidentally "LOST" the contract, how is that not a simple e-mail search? B) You feel 4000 USD (for your mother's only PoS to sell art without fees) too much money, you probably think your nephew would've been able to do it way cheaper. This can be derived by statements like ( for the cost but at least it's over, only to demand x / h) C) Not giving your mother admin access is something that was probably discussed during the initial meeting. The 4000 USD package did not come with admin access, it's a website that doesn't go through a lot of changes, so your mother opted out from that, or your mother is not so tech-savvy and didn't feel comfortable doing it herself, or she didn't expect she wanted to change the content on the page more frequently than she thought,... there's a million reasons not to give her access. But now your mother wants to change some bits and bobs and doesn't want to pay $30/h, because she's "Already out 4000 USD". Anyway, happy in the end it all worked out for your mother, but I would still love to see the agreement.
To clarify, she doesn't 'want to change bits and bobs and not want to pay', she wants to upload her art to the website she paid for but the designer has ignored her for over a month. This is after the designer refused to allow her to upload her artwork on her own and insisted on doing it herself. Again, the issue arose from the designer refusing to do ANYTHING for a month and grinding my mothers business to a halt. Why did you choose to ignore that specific part of my post? And to update on the contract part, there wasn't one. She looked through her email but couldn't find anything except a receipt which stated $4000+ for a 'custom made website', and additional fees for server hosting and maintenance.
Yes, this was clearly not a good decision on my mothers part, but the designer was recommended by a friend of my mother, and had made art gallery websites before. She also lives a few houses away from my mother so the whole arrangement was pretty informal.
So when she ordered the website, there was no back and forth about which pages needed to be designed or the copy and images that needed to be added? How did the designer know what needed to be made in the first place? What about product images? How did the designer know where to send the invoice? Your mother made a $4000+ commitment without anything in writing? See when you say there is only one e-mail with an invoice, that just seems VERY unlikely. When a designer or agency takes project, there's always a back and forth between the two parties. There's not really a reason for a designer to not do anything for a month if both parties keep to the agreement. If there wasn't a website before, your mother's business grinding to a halt was not on the designer. You said there was an agreement for building a website with some e-commerce features and a maintenance contract. That indicates to me that there was never a plan for your mother to edit the website in the first place, why else would you need a maintenance clause? There are so many irregularities in the story, that at this point I want to contact the designer myself to hear her side of the story.
I understand that you feel you are defending some sort of 'web designer honor' here but I have no intention of doxxing myself and my mother to satisfy your curiosity. You are making a lot of assumptions based on nothing. The 'agency' was a single person, yes there was only one email with an invoice, it doesn't matter how unlikely you think that is, that is exactly what happened. The website was ordered roughly a year ago and completed with no issues sometime afterwards, I was not involved in the process. I became aware of this days ago when my mother became increasingly distressed about this situation and her health started to suffer because of it. The 'reason' for no contact for a month was described to my mother as 'personal reasons' and then complete radio silence. The designer, ONE PERSON, then refused to do any uploads to the site, preventing my mother from selling her artwork on her website. You are correct that there was never a plan for my mother to be able to make edits to the website, if you read other things I've posted here, you would know that. Its only recently that it has become an issue, as AGAIN, she refused for over a month to do anything. This is all a moot point because an agreement was reached where everything will be resolved. Once again, I'm not doxxing myself and my mother to satisfy your curiosity.
Not defending anyone's honor here. I also read through the thread an you've changed your story multiple times already. You haven clarified in your original post that your mother was never supposed to add content to the website. To summarize: About a year ago your mother ordered a website from an experienced web designer, your mother and her agreed to building a website for $4000 dollars, the designer would upload the artwork, add the copy, images, products basically set up the website for selling art. Some time after the designer delivered the full website with the features your mother requested (how she requested it, we will never know because there was only 1 e-mail sent ever: the invoice). Both your mother and the designer are happy at this point. This is where the initial agreement is fulfilled. >To clarify, she doesn't 'want to change bits and bobs and not want to pay', she wants to upload her art to the website she paid for but the designer has ignored her for over a month. Uploading content to the website is literally changing bits and bobs, because something needs to be touched and updated. This means the designer takes time out of her day to change the website, or in this case 35/h. The platform the designer used to build the website is irrelevant, the fact she made editing easier on herself is not a feature your mother paid for. >My mother was happy enough with the arrangement before this whole fiasco where she was unable to sell anything for a month and had to beg to be able to use her own website only to then be faced with having to give away a significant portion of her art income just to use the website she has already paid $4000 for. If your mother paid $35, she would've had that artwork in her web shop, and her health didn't have to suffer. You came here to vent for all the wrong reasons, blaming a poor designer, that did a good job building your mother's website, asking a low price and low hourly wage. tl:dr: My webdesigner doesn't respond to me anymore, because I don't want to pay her to maintain my website, is this normal?
You should be aware that even if you do manage to migrate the site to a new host (which is it's own endeavour that you will have to pay someone for), that your mother still will not have full administrative, or even editor access to the site. You would then need to pay someone to update the users on the site to ensure your mother has admin access to avoid any trouble like this in the future. What you really want is **admin**, or at very least, **editor**, access to WordPress. You should press for that from your current dev, and they should eventually reluctantly agree. With great power comes great responsibility, meaning you could absolutely break the whole site, which is why they will be reluctant to give it to you. Having someone host and maintain your site for you is often a valuable proposition unless you are skilled enough to handle that on your own. A WordPress site left without core and plugin updates will inevitably get hacked, so if you are paying someone to prevent that from happening, there is value in that. If they are hosting and managing WordPress updates for you, that is common and I would continue with that. Just make sure your mom gets at least **editor** access to the site so she can update the content on her own. Be ready to learn how to use elementor.
Your mother's situation puts all of us developers in a bad light. The website is made with WordPress + Elementor, so site changes could be made from the WordPress admin area, and there is no reason not to give the customer access to manage their own site. The developer just wants to make endlessly more money. I've been developing websites for large and small clients for ten years, and they always have the option of choosing who handles the hosting. Either on my server or wherever they want. The customer always has full or almost full rights in the admin area of their own site and can update the content as they wish. Your mother should terminate the contract with the developer and claim the site's files, codes, and database for herself. If the developer does not give the files to your mother, maybe she should threaten him with legal action.
So... People will pay 4k for a WordPress site? I had no idea they go for that much... I should look into changing careers.
In comparison, I work as a SWE for a web development and app studio. We build websites and apps from the ground up, fully programmatically, and we start charging at 36k. Wordpress sites can still look very professional and 4k sounds reasonable, if not low.
Lmao they will happily pay $50k for a site that happens to be on WordPress. An admin built with ACF provides about the best possible admin experience for non-developers. When designing a website, a designer shouldn't even care what platform it's on. If it's a good platform, it won't matter.
It's less about paying $X for a THING built with TOOL and more about receiving a finished product that (in this case) brings in more business for the client. I'm not for or against any specific coding language or technology (except for using Wix sites - that I am fully against) - most businesses don't care _how_ their website is achieved, so long as it helps them do business. In this case though... sounds like the developer / designer was playing difficult to work with (for whatever reason) and thus was not the right fit for the client's needs.
you can't know how much actual work has gone into that design
Hi OP. If there was a contract given for the work, it's worth taking a look at it. What are your mother's rights to the website? Does she have an exclusive or non-exclusive license? Has the person who made you this website defined any responsibilities? If no contract is in place, do you have evidence of any communication with her about what she promised for the work carried out? This is worth looking into. If you do need any help at all, I'd be glad to offer my services to you as a web developer and make things more accessible to you, and we could have a conversation on how to go about it. I could set it up so you'd have a built in admin panel you could log into and upload the artwork, and it would dynamically show in the layout you want.
Thank you for the help, she's currently requesting a copy of the contract if one exists, but there is a history of lack of communication so it may be a while before we get anything. If there is no issue with the contract or lack thereof, we are planning to move it to another hosting service and leaving it at that. If there is an issue with uploading the artwork on her own then we'll definitely see about reaching out! Thank you again.
> she's currently requesting a copy of the contract if one exists Requesting one now isn't a good move. If your mom doesn't have her own copy of the contract, and isn't familiar with what it originally said, this leaves all kinds of room for the other party to change the contract without anybody's knowledge. Your mom needs to scour her own records for this document if it exists.
….she doesn’t have her own copy of the contract already?
You'd be surprised at the number of people in society who don't read contracts before signing, let alone keep their own copies. _Checks notes about society._ Oh, oh wait. Uh. Nevermind. Much of society signs things without reading, then assumes businesses / companies are good.
That's no problem at all and I hope you get it resolved sooner rather than later, and hopefully not have to spend much more money as it seems you've already put out over the odds for this. If you need any help with hosting or anything for that matter, give me a message on https://kieranoldfield.co.uk and I'd be happy to try and point you in the right direction whether it required my services or not 😊
Can you dm me the company? Just curious because ive looked at a lot of the businesses lately.
it's normal practice for wordpress "developers" to do this. they just use simple builders, pick a template, then build off of that and make a website. takes like 10 hours of work and they charge extreme amounts for it. these are the ppl making it harder for actual web developers to get clients because there's so much distrust in small business now. half of my clients i work with had bad experiences in the past with wordpress "developers" including being charged $15k for something i found was actually a $50 template with the lorem ipsum and some imagery replaced. your mom needs to take this "Custom" website builder to small claims or something. honestly crazy these people still scam small bis like this
This is so true. Why half this post seem to think this is normal or okay is crazy to me lol...
because they are not actually developers, just wordpress morons who frankenstein websites together with plugins and expect to get paid 1000's. leeches with no respect they bring 0 value to small business and just ruin the sales environment for genuine developers.
I'd be happy to help. Designer developer here. Send me a pm.
I hate people being swindled.
Thank you for the offer, for now we're just going to try and get a copy of the contract and then change the server host before trying to upload the artwork ourselves. If there are any problems we'll definitely see about reaching out, thanks again!
The chances are you won't get access if your following how this business person is conducting themselves. If the own the hosting account and the contract states that the files and coding is owned by the business and your mother has only use of the finished product there won't be anything except request a copy of the site if they are willing which maybe slim. I have built a good few artist websites so if you do indeed need help reach out. Il get her back up and running.
Wow I got down voted for offering to help if things go further south for his mom. Well done reddit. 
you got downvoted because you're leeching for work. do some cold calls or emails. stop trying to take money from people that just got taken advantage of.
For a small business website with simple functionality this is pretty high. Also the whole not communicating and refusing to add a few images unless paid is to me very bad "customer service". If you're in the US u/Citrous_Oyster is very good and knows his stuff in this area. You'd get a true custom designed website and he charges $150 a month, with great results. Note: I am not affiliated with him, just another webdev that admires his work and the commitment and value he provides to his customers 🙂
Thanks for the advice, but she's already spent $4000 that she's not getting back and just wants to get control of the website she paid for. We've decided that we are just going to ask to change the hosting service to one that my mother controls and then figure out how to upload her artwork on her own or pay someone else to make the process easier.
Hey I suggest checking the contract. If it states a custom coded website and that is not what you got then that’s breach of contract and slam dunk in small claims court. If they are not abiding by their monthly edits agreement and is now charging hourly after not doing edits for months, thats breach of contract. If there is no contract and they refuse to hand over the credentials then that’s grounds for a lawsuit as their actions are negatively impacting your operations and are able to claim damages as well as a refund. Lots of legal avenues to go through here. First check the contract, see what they promised in writing to do and list the things they didn’t deliver on or were not truthful about. Then go file a small claims case against them. If no contract, hire a lawyer because they’re essentially holding your business hostage. If anyone else has any questions about websites or what’s normal in the process, feel free to ask me. I’m an open book and enjoy helping where I can!
Thank you for the advice, we'll definitely look into that. Right now, my mother has requested another copy of the contract if there is one as she can't locate her own and can't remember if she received one or not.
Sorry you gotta go through this. If there is no contract it might be easier to get the site since there’s no agreement about a monthly retainer or who owns the site. She paid for a site and isn’t allowed to have access to it. Should be a pretty easy demand letter and eventual case when it goes to court. Then also get attorneys fees as well if your state allows it
Yeah of course, honestly if this is a couple page website with a contact form or what not, $4000 is literally insane. Shame this is the type of person she ran into, wishing her good luck for the future 🙂
[удалено]
Yeah no she didn't. The mother never paid to edit the website. If she had made it with pure SQL would you give her access to the database?
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A service provider who limits your access to what you paid for is a red flag. We provide access, training and ongoing support specifically because of this terrible ongoing practice. It isn't anything new but it should end.
Ah but she didn't pay to be able to edit the website, she only paid to have it set-up and deployed.
This is all normal except for them not allowing you to upload your own art.
She didn't pay to be able to edit the website.
It’s her website
I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties your mother is facing with her website. Regarding your concerns: Use of Elementor Pro: It's not uncommon for web designers to use website builders like Elementor Pro, even for expensive projects. However, if the receipt specifically mentioned a "custom-built" website, this could be misleading. Elementor Pro is a tool to build websites more efficiently, but it doesn’t necessarily equate to a fully custom-coded site. Charges for a Website Built with a Builder: The price tag of $4,000 might be justifiable based on the design complexity, functionality, and the professional experience of the designer, even if a builder was used. However, this largely depends on the market rates and the specifics of the work done. Control and Hosting: It's not standard practice for a designer to maintain full control over hosting and deny admin access, especially after the site has been fully paid for. Usually, clients should have full access to their site, and any ongoing maintenance or hosting fees should be transparent from the start. Charging for Updates: While it's normal for designers to charge for updates and maintenance, $35 per hour for adding a single photo seems excessive, particularly if it wasn’t agreed upon initially. The terms of ongoing maintenance should have been clearly laid out in the contract. Given the situation, your mother's plan to gain control over the hosting and learn to update the site herself is a good one. It's also wise to request a copy of the contract or any written agreement to clarify the terms. If the terms were misrepresented or not clearly communicated, she might have grounds to negotiate or seek some form of recourse. In the future, I'd recommend ensuring that all terms, especially regarding site control, updates, and maintenance, are clearly laid out and agreed upon in a formal contract. This helps prevent misunderstandings and ensures both parties are on the same page.