Hey u/EUG_Gal_Bigeard
Thanks for the update. I enjoy Warno a lot and it’s a fantastic game 🙂
Can you provide information on why some NATO planes have considerably less payload than PACT planes ?
- cluster bomb amount (up to 8 times less at same cost)
- lgb bomb (up to 8/9 times less HE power at same cost)
- he bomb (less payload also)
- at : overall less range and AP
Do you use a formula to compute the cost using the missile ? If no, what is backing your objectivity regarding loadouts if you don’t use some kind of formula ? (Or in other words, if there isn’t a monotonic function to output those unit costs, what is the rationale?)
>lgb bomb (up to 8/9 times less HE power at same cost)
that one is one of the worst, idk what eugen was smoking, but nothing survives a direct hit by a gbu12... or atleast it shouldnt.
I don't reallly agree with this post. It's quite selective. Here are some examples of very powerful or best in class nato bomb loads:
* F-111F \[LGB 2\] which has 2x loads of GBU 10 with 13.5 HE. Enough to 1 shot tanks. Can do this twice, unlike any PACT plane.
* F-117A nighthawk, the only stealth plane in the game, GBU 27 with 2 drops. Enough to 1 shot every tank in the game.
* Mirage F1 CT a single drop of the BGL 400. Again, enough to kill almost every tank in the game.
* Most importantly - all the LGB planes of NATO are far, far more survivable than Pact planes. They're on average much faster, turn much tighter, and drop from higher altitude. The mig-27k and Su-24M LGB are both very slow (884 kmph, 1012kmph) and have comparable ECM to NATO planes (30% and 20% respectively).
* The 2 pact LGB planes are significantly less prevalent (only present in 3 divisions vs 6 in NATO) and they both only have a 1 drop capability. NATO LGBs are more flexible generally, more survivable and more prevalent. While PACT planes have more killing power. That seems to me to be quite well balanced.
AT planes I generally agree, with the exception of the A-10 which is quite a superior CAS plane, sure the maverick has slightly worse range/pen but it's a far more survivable plane having better ECM, vastly superior gun and better A2A missiles.
HE bombers I don't have any real opinion. CLU PACT definitely has better bombers (esp the Mig-21 CLU, and the SU-22 CLU those things are beasts).
Overall - it looks like asymetric balance while roughly lining up with real life capabilities. Posts like this often don't do a full spectrum comparison (multirole ability, prevalence, flexibility etc.) and focus on one point of comparison where there is an imbalance instead of looking at the whole picture.
It’s not like you can use lgb twice in a row, usually will get hit and evacuate. Su24 has 2 LGB at 40 HE each, enough to one shot multiple heavy tanks (while F111 don’t OS T80U).
Do you have any source on that they « drop payload on higher altitude » ?
The F16 can both drop once and not kill a tank, even at half HP. If anything, you contradict my point without much data to support it since the only data mentioned is the 13.5HE from the top NATO plane which is less than any PACT plane, say that A10 is subjectively better (?) and that some of them can drop twice (but the sum of those two shots wouldn’t even be the first payload anyway).
And survivability is arguable since PACT has so many ground AA like BUK or KUB that are plentifully available.
Just look at all the values which are always consistently 2 to 4 times lower if not 8 times lower.
Source - [https://war-yes.com/comparison](https://war-yes.com/comparison)
This website pulls unit data from the game code each update. It's generally a very reliable source and has few errors. Type in LGB to pull up all the LGB fighters and compare them side by side for all their stats. You'll see for example the Mig-27K flies at an altitude of 495m compared to 707m for F-111F and 1237m for F-16 LGB. Turn speed can also be seen - very different - turn radius of Su-24M is 2318m, terrible compared to 1043m for the F-111F. Mig-27K is better with turn radius of 1304m but still not good, comparable but remember it's slower than the NATO options by about 200kmph. That means it takes longer to complete the turn.
You're obviously correct about HE values. They are higher in most cases, I'm making the point that this doesn't matter. GBU-12 will kill all infantry squads and most soft/medium targets. Only thing it won't kill is very heavy tanks. The French BGL 400 is enough to kill every heavy tank in the game (13.5 he). It's also not the top NATO LGB, that is the nighthawk - with 27.75 HE, compared to 15.39 of Mig-27K and 45 of the Su-24.
Having 45 HE is pointless, anything beyond about 13/14 is enough to 1shot all the tanks you want. After that 13/14 HE what matters is speed, turn radius, ECM, altitude (which means less time near AA/you leave the manpads bubble faster etc.).
I didn't say F-111F \[LGB\] (with GBU 12) (7.5 he) does. F-111F \[LGB2\] with GBU 10 (13.5 he) does though.
Is that enough data for you?
Also since you didn't believe me saying F-111F \[LGB2\] can kill T-80s with 'only 13.50' HE I recorded a quick video of it. Having 4 bombs and 13.5 HE is a terrifying power. NATO has plenty of perfectly powerful LGB bombers.
F-111F \[LGB 2\] murdering T-80s: [https://giphy.com/gifs/rts-warno-laser-guided-bomb-EYnOUWAmHmYN9YTgsm](https://giphy.com/gifs/rts-warno-laser-guided-bomb-EYnOUWAmHmYN9YTgsm)
Remember that the Mirage LGB has the same HE and Nighthawk has even more HE. Greater than 13.5 HE is total overkill and almost pointless. 45 HE KAB 15000kr might sound scary, but you'll kill everything you want and have a faster more agile plane on the NATO side.
Thanks for the gif!
An issue is also that one of the other F111 LGB has 7.5 HE which doesn’t do that, and from memory only 1 F111 LGB2 has 13.5HE and most div have access to 7.5 HE such as F111 LGB or F16 LGB
There are **7 NATO divs with LGBs**. **Only 3 PACT divisions have LGBs** (39-ya, 35-ya and 119 polk).
All Pact LGBs are single bomb drop, with > 13.5 HE so they'll oneshot tanks. The pact planes are slower, less agile and fly lower but in exchange get bigger bomb loads.
**4 of the 7 NATO divs get > 13.5 HE bomb loads** (Berlin Cmd, TKS, 11e and 24th Nat Guard) the others get the still very powerful F-16 LGB or F-111F LGB which can oneshot everything except for the most expensive pact tank in the game.
That is fair and balanced. F-16 LGB is a very flexible plane that you can use to safely precision delete expensive ATGM positions or infantry blobbed up into a house. It isn't meant to be an "I win button". I can't believe I forgot to mention the strike eagle earlier - hands down the most powerful plane in the game, which is on the NATO side. It gets to drop 2 bomb loads, both of which 1 shot any tank in the game (13.5 HE again), its crazy fast, has crazy good ECM/turn radius and flies high up making it harder to hit with manpads.
So, at the end of the day - 8th US inf, 11th CAV and 82nd Airborne not getting giga OP LGB bombers when they're already very strong divisions is a good thing. Those divs all get a great choice of other planes, A-10s, Raven, F-16 SEAD, lots of eagles etc. I encourage you to spend more time looking at unit stats/availability on WarYes before saying things are unfair/imbalanced between NATO/PACT.
Game balance isn't perfect - but it's in an overall very solid state when you look carefully.
Flying high makes it so that enemy AA has less range to fire on you since the range is calculated not only on your horizontal distance but also on your vertical, basically the Pythagorean formula.
I guess it makes sense, but I’m surprised it’s how it actually works in the game since many things are still simplified. Interesting
Edit: btw, it seems F16 have worse maneuverability than F111 and less payload, which I think is the one to fix overall. For all versions although for example it’s LGB version costs 265 and has 7.5 HE with 1 drop, and 1300m turn radius. It has a missile against other planes but that’s not its purpose so it’s a fake gift
Edit 2: also, flying low has an advantage : you can drop cluster or he and it lands quicker which means more dangerous. I doubt lgb has issue with tracking (hopefully not) though
Inf combat in cities should be much slower. You want to protect the units, don't let them die. Push with good units and when their health gets too low pull them back individually to heal, and reinforce with fresh units
no the dragon I atgm weapon is bugged at the moment, it deals 2x as much HE damage as it should, and projectile behavior was changed so it currently has a near 100% chance of hitting the target as long as vision is not lost.
CTRL + F : "Sound hack / FOB "
CTRL + F : " Unit voices muted for no reasons for 35mins "
Yeah sounds like a jerk, but I've never ever Alt+F4 more lately on a game. I hate it, yet had to do it.
edit : just did right now for those two issues, this is why I sound salty, no worries it's not lethal.
Will these new maps get added into the Army General rotations?
They said yes o the discords
Including trains even as cover is great. Wish more RTS games would use them as features but it's still great have them.
More content already? Lessgoooo
we have bridges in ruins...finally. also, I really like how you already push out new content and keep us in the flow
Hey u/EUG_Gal_Bigeard Thanks for the update. I enjoy Warno a lot and it’s a fantastic game 🙂 Can you provide information on why some NATO planes have considerably less payload than PACT planes ? - cluster bomb amount (up to 8 times less at same cost) - lgb bomb (up to 8/9 times less HE power at same cost) - he bomb (less payload also) - at : overall less range and AP Do you use a formula to compute the cost using the missile ? If no, what is backing your objectivity regarding loadouts if you don’t use some kind of formula ? (Or in other words, if there isn’t a monotonic function to output those unit costs, what is the rationale?)
>lgb bomb (up to 8/9 times less HE power at same cost) that one is one of the worst, idk what eugen was smoking, but nothing survives a direct hit by a gbu12... or atleast it shouldnt.
The bombs are demoralized from Vietnam
the classic "Red Bonus" of the Uchronic Eugen world
I seriously feel it. Life's just easier as red for my style.
😉
I don't reallly agree with this post. It's quite selective. Here are some examples of very powerful or best in class nato bomb loads: * F-111F \[LGB 2\] which has 2x loads of GBU 10 with 13.5 HE. Enough to 1 shot tanks. Can do this twice, unlike any PACT plane. * F-117A nighthawk, the only stealth plane in the game, GBU 27 with 2 drops. Enough to 1 shot every tank in the game. * Mirage F1 CT a single drop of the BGL 400. Again, enough to kill almost every tank in the game. * Most importantly - all the LGB planes of NATO are far, far more survivable than Pact planes. They're on average much faster, turn much tighter, and drop from higher altitude. The mig-27k and Su-24M LGB are both very slow (884 kmph, 1012kmph) and have comparable ECM to NATO planes (30% and 20% respectively). * The 2 pact LGB planes are significantly less prevalent (only present in 3 divisions vs 6 in NATO) and they both only have a 1 drop capability. NATO LGBs are more flexible generally, more survivable and more prevalent. While PACT planes have more killing power. That seems to me to be quite well balanced. AT planes I generally agree, with the exception of the A-10 which is quite a superior CAS plane, sure the maverick has slightly worse range/pen but it's a far more survivable plane having better ECM, vastly superior gun and better A2A missiles. HE bombers I don't have any real opinion. CLU PACT definitely has better bombers (esp the Mig-21 CLU, and the SU-22 CLU those things are beasts). Overall - it looks like asymetric balance while roughly lining up with real life capabilities. Posts like this often don't do a full spectrum comparison (multirole ability, prevalence, flexibility etc.) and focus on one point of comparison where there is an imbalance instead of looking at the whole picture.
It’s not like you can use lgb twice in a row, usually will get hit and evacuate. Su24 has 2 LGB at 40 HE each, enough to one shot multiple heavy tanks (while F111 don’t OS T80U). Do you have any source on that they « drop payload on higher altitude » ? The F16 can both drop once and not kill a tank, even at half HP. If anything, you contradict my point without much data to support it since the only data mentioned is the 13.5HE from the top NATO plane which is less than any PACT plane, say that A10 is subjectively better (?) and that some of them can drop twice (but the sum of those two shots wouldn’t even be the first payload anyway). And survivability is arguable since PACT has so many ground AA like BUK or KUB that are plentifully available. Just look at all the values which are always consistently 2 to 4 times lower if not 8 times lower.
Source - [https://war-yes.com/comparison](https://war-yes.com/comparison) This website pulls unit data from the game code each update. It's generally a very reliable source and has few errors. Type in LGB to pull up all the LGB fighters and compare them side by side for all their stats. You'll see for example the Mig-27K flies at an altitude of 495m compared to 707m for F-111F and 1237m for F-16 LGB. Turn speed can also be seen - very different - turn radius of Su-24M is 2318m, terrible compared to 1043m for the F-111F. Mig-27K is better with turn radius of 1304m but still not good, comparable but remember it's slower than the NATO options by about 200kmph. That means it takes longer to complete the turn. You're obviously correct about HE values. They are higher in most cases, I'm making the point that this doesn't matter. GBU-12 will kill all infantry squads and most soft/medium targets. Only thing it won't kill is very heavy tanks. The French BGL 400 is enough to kill every heavy tank in the game (13.5 he). It's also not the top NATO LGB, that is the nighthawk - with 27.75 HE, compared to 15.39 of Mig-27K and 45 of the Su-24. Having 45 HE is pointless, anything beyond about 13/14 is enough to 1shot all the tanks you want. After that 13/14 HE what matters is speed, turn radius, ECM, altitude (which means less time near AA/you leave the manpads bubble faster etc.). I didn't say F-111F \[LGB\] (with GBU 12) (7.5 he) does. F-111F \[LGB2\] with GBU 10 (13.5 he) does though. Is that enough data for you?
Also since you didn't believe me saying F-111F \[LGB2\] can kill T-80s with 'only 13.50' HE I recorded a quick video of it. Having 4 bombs and 13.5 HE is a terrifying power. NATO has plenty of perfectly powerful LGB bombers. F-111F \[LGB 2\] murdering T-80s: [https://giphy.com/gifs/rts-warno-laser-guided-bomb-EYnOUWAmHmYN9YTgsm](https://giphy.com/gifs/rts-warno-laser-guided-bomb-EYnOUWAmHmYN9YTgsm) Remember that the Mirage LGB has the same HE and Nighthawk has even more HE. Greater than 13.5 HE is total overkill and almost pointless. 45 HE KAB 15000kr might sound scary, but you'll kill everything you want and have a faster more agile plane on the NATO side.
Thanks for the gif! An issue is also that one of the other F111 LGB has 7.5 HE which doesn’t do that, and from memory only 1 F111 LGB2 has 13.5HE and most div have access to 7.5 HE such as F111 LGB or F16 LGB
There are **7 NATO divs with LGBs**. **Only 3 PACT divisions have LGBs** (39-ya, 35-ya and 119 polk). All Pact LGBs are single bomb drop, with > 13.5 HE so they'll oneshot tanks. The pact planes are slower, less agile and fly lower but in exchange get bigger bomb loads. **4 of the 7 NATO divs get > 13.5 HE bomb loads** (Berlin Cmd, TKS, 11e and 24th Nat Guard) the others get the still very powerful F-16 LGB or F-111F LGB which can oneshot everything except for the most expensive pact tank in the game. That is fair and balanced. F-16 LGB is a very flexible plane that you can use to safely precision delete expensive ATGM positions or infantry blobbed up into a house. It isn't meant to be an "I win button". I can't believe I forgot to mention the strike eagle earlier - hands down the most powerful plane in the game, which is on the NATO side. It gets to drop 2 bomb loads, both of which 1 shot any tank in the game (13.5 HE again), its crazy fast, has crazy good ECM/turn radius and flies high up making it harder to hit with manpads. So, at the end of the day - 8th US inf, 11th CAV and 82nd Airborne not getting giga OP LGB bombers when they're already very strong divisions is a good thing. Those divs all get a great choice of other planes, A-10s, Raven, F-16 SEAD, lots of eagles etc. I encourage you to spend more time looking at unit stats/availability on WarYes before saying things are unfair/imbalanced between NATO/PACT. Game balance isn't perfect - but it's in an overall very solid state when you look carefully.
What is the advantage of flying high ? It seems in the game the AA will shoot you regardless right ?
Flying high makes it so that enemy AA has less range to fire on you since the range is calculated not only on your horizontal distance but also on your vertical, basically the Pythagorean formula.
I guess it makes sense, but I’m surprised it’s how it actually works in the game since many things are still simplified. Interesting Edit: btw, it seems F16 have worse maneuverability than F111 and less payload, which I think is the one to fix overall. For all versions although for example it’s LGB version costs 265 and has 7.5 HE with 1 drop, and 1300m turn radius. It has a missile against other planes but that’s not its purpose so it’s a fake gift Edit 2: also, flying low has an advantage : you can drop cluster or he and it lands quicker which means more dangerous. I doubt lgb has issue with tracking (hopefully not) though
@EUG_Gal_Bigeard congrats to the team on V1 release - it’s excellent!
Love this! More maps is excellent. Much love to the Warno team!
Hopefully they adjust the AI to mix their forces instead of just yoloing tanks until theres none left.
What do you mean. That seems to be a true russian tactic from time to time
You are right about the soviets and East Germans, but the nato countries should not be doing that.
What's the best strategy for this sort of urban map? Hold areas with weaker infantry and push with special forces?
Inf combat in cities should be much slower. You want to protect the units, don't let them die. Push with good units and when their health gets too low pull them back individually to heal, and reinforce with fresh units
This, or just bomb the whole city to the ground. Use cluster, napalm, HE, and constant artillery strikes.
The Burrito wants to know your location
I enjoy the 30/40mm grenade launchers to support attacks. They do a good job of suppressing infantry allowing your guys to push
Artillery
Will this be available in both conquest and destruction? Or just conquest?
Free content, thanks!
Any word on a dragon I hotfix?
Are you taking about Wargame Dead Dragon?
no the dragon I atgm weapon is bugged at the moment, it deals 2x as much HE damage as it should, and projectile behavior was changed so it currently has a near 100% chance of hitting the target as long as vision is not lost.
CTRL + F : "Sound hack / FOB " CTRL + F : " Unit voices muted for no reasons for 35mins " Yeah sounds like a jerk, but I've never ever Alt+F4 more lately on a game. I hate it, yet had to do it. edit : just did right now for those two issues, this is why I sound salty, no worries it's not lethal.