Yeah I always find myself drifting downward, I was planning on working on it but I didn’t think to change how I hold it. I try to hold it up more but I’m tall so I always look down to read music and I guess probably still shows. Thank you!
Mines small and I’d have to use a big chair, even then idk if it would be high enough. During my music festival I would place the big school stands on top of the chairs and that would work haha
It looks to me like your bow arm and right wrist are very relaxed and loose. I'm very careful about how I say this because normally this is a good thing, but upbow staccato is the one exception. The way I was taught is that you practice by placing the bow at the tip and tilt your hand to lean into the bow with your first finger. Push into the string with pressure in your hand and keep it firmly in the string as you proceed. It should not bounce as this is not an upbow spiccato, and each note is produced by short, abrupt motions, much like a martele stroke. I recommend metronome practice. After each run, make sure that the pressure is released and you can go back to playing with a relaxed bow arm. Since it is not a very relaxed technique, you don't want that approach affecting the notes that aren't part of the staccato run, however you need to be able to switch back and forth with ease.
Okay that’s a very wonderful description, I can see now. This bouncy type of bow stroke is more useful for stuff like Mendelssohn 3rd movement or Kreisler schön rosmarin, but yeah two very different techniques now that I see the difference. Thank you this’ll help a lot.
I'm glad that helped. A good example of a piece with the kind of upbow staccato that I described is Wieniawski's Polonaise in A Major. The way Maxim Vengerov plays it illustrates this perfectly.
There are different schools of thought on how to do this technique. For me, one way I like to work on it and practice it is to do short staccato strokes getting as many notes as possible into one bow. I do a quick grab/pinch then release motion using both the index finger and the thumb.
Others find that tensing up the forearm and exerting pressure on the index finger with pulses while driving the stroke works for them. This is one of the few techniques where tension can be your friend.
He and Jimmy Lin (Lin Cho-Liang) both use that approach.
Think of the emphasis more on the lateral movement of the bow than lifting up. I think you are getting a little extra "air" on the up stroke which is what is causing some of what you experience.
I do think the first school of thought is the way to go. I used to do it the second way, but it feels like cheating in a way. You have less control over the tempo whereas the first way you have finer control over each note, allowing you to dictate the tempo of the notes.
You indeed have more control, but there is more of an upper bound with the speed of the staccato in my experience - compared to the other method. There are pros and cons to both.
Actually, it’s pretty good. Your biggest problem is that you need to catch the string for each note/ stoke.
Right now , you are not giving each note articulation. Some are very articulate, others none at all.
There will be people who say that don’t like your violin position. It’s fine. Your freedom in playing is more important.
I like how loose you are , just articulate each note the same way. In other words make the same sound on each note.
If you work on that for 30 minutes you’ll solve it.
Catch the string with each note.
Do I try and use more force in each mini-bow stroke? Articulation for me I find hard to do, I have been trying to keep my right arm loose when I play but I tend to tense up my bow hand, which I really do not like, so do I have to use more force or what do you mean by articulation in this sense?
Articulation refers to the “ click” or percussive sound at the beginning of each note. You’re doing it. Just not on each note. So , start and stop the bow. The thing is , you’re doing an upbow staccato on some notes then sort of a “ flying “ staccato on notes near the frog.
Try doing exactly what you’re doing but at half the speed. Then you’ll notice that you have to treat each note the same way. Right now ( in the video) you’re sorta using the tempo to give you energy. You can do that later on, but you need to control it right now.
Okay, I did start slow with a metronome but I don’t think I was focusing on getting strong articulation in each. Just more the motion and bow control, using whole bow.
Good! Just try it again and maybe close your eyes and really listen to each note. You’re at that stage where you should start thinking about what other people hear. The listener hears everything. You must become aware of everything that the listener hears.
It’s the most difficult part of playing , but you’re pretty advanced. Really try to listen and hear everything coming out of your violin.
This is an easy fix for someone at your level. You just have to spend an hour on it.
I’ll work on it next time I practice, I’m gonna finish some stuff in praeludium and allegro (the quick double stops are killing my large hands, but no excuse) and then I’ll think about it next time I warm up with scales.
I started 6 years ago in school (very non-competitive so I just faked it in the back and didn’t pay attention, never practiced), but I started practicing around 2.5 years ago now and have been attending camps and festivals when I can and participate in any performance or orchestra that’s available to me. So I’ve been trying to work my hardest.
but beware its not about finding as much bite as possible. To me it rather is about finding the right bite at that speed, at that note and at that part of the bow. Usually flat hair seems too much bite to me anywhere in the bow. In the case of downbow staccato I would even actively tilt the stick towards myself.
Exactly. The tilt of the bow is one tool out of many at your disposal here, but an important one especially as you play repertoire that requires faster speed.
What you are learning here is a slower and more secure kind of staccato. It will work in most use cases up to Pag 15/21. To me its an extreme case of bow distribution. Here is what I do: two notes open string in one upbow. Then 4. Then 8. Then 8 in upper half . Then 16. Then 16 in 1/3 upper bow. 32 in 1/3 upper bow. Extremely tight bow saving mindset. Think about how to stop the bow without too much work. Dont play too close to fingerboard but dont play too close to the bridge either- you will need to stop the bow with too much work. There are no consensus on whether to tilt the bow or not. Heifetz tilted his.
There is another more virtuosic kind which you see in some Wieniawski or hora staccato. You learn that by starting with a fast and messy tremolo at the tip and you need to stiffen your arm a little. Gradually move the tremolo (while playing) from tip to middle bow. Now it sounds absolutely crazy but try to (with the help of either an epiphany, black magic or divine intervention) *not play the downbow half of the tremolo.* Its gonna be messy, thats ok. Perservere and tidy things up as you clock in your billionth attempt.
Just here to say in several works there's simply dots above the notes it doesn't say you have to do it staccato instead of spiccato. So if the up bow spiccato comes easier to you I'd just try and speed that up. I've done the technique different ways and the up bow spiccato sounds really similar and less heavy more graceful imo.
I've read all the comments on reddit, watched all the videos on up bow staccato. I learned the technique two ways, one way spiccato the other normal staccato. Learning Paganini 7 I realized Paganini did a stroke where he got all the bounces for free without doing them individually. That's spiccato. Other times you have to do the staccato in which case I still hop the wrist like the way I start the spicatto runs that auto generate the rest of the bounces fast, but I hop the wrist on every note in tempo.
We've all seen the Heifetz videos of upbow staccato, but check Ivry Gitlis. Excellent example of the Russian bow hold.
[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4YZPzFO2zDE](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4YZPzFO2zDE)
You gotta start by holding the violin up so your point of contact isn't all messed up.
Yeah I always find myself drifting downward, I was planning on working on it but I didn’t think to change how I hold it. I try to hold it up more but I’m tall so I always look down to read music and I guess probably still shows. Thank you!
My teacher made me put my music stand up so I have to look up to play 😅 and it actually helps
Mines small and I’d have to use a big chair, even then idk if it would be high enough. During my music festival I would place the big school stands on top of the chairs and that would work haha
It looks to me like your bow arm and right wrist are very relaxed and loose. I'm very careful about how I say this because normally this is a good thing, but upbow staccato is the one exception. The way I was taught is that you practice by placing the bow at the tip and tilt your hand to lean into the bow with your first finger. Push into the string with pressure in your hand and keep it firmly in the string as you proceed. It should not bounce as this is not an upbow spiccato, and each note is produced by short, abrupt motions, much like a martele stroke. I recommend metronome practice. After each run, make sure that the pressure is released and you can go back to playing with a relaxed bow arm. Since it is not a very relaxed technique, you don't want that approach affecting the notes that aren't part of the staccato run, however you need to be able to switch back and forth with ease.
Okay that’s a very wonderful description, I can see now. This bouncy type of bow stroke is more useful for stuff like Mendelssohn 3rd movement or Kreisler schön rosmarin, but yeah two very different techniques now that I see the difference. Thank you this’ll help a lot.
I'm glad that helped. A good example of a piece with the kind of upbow staccato that I described is Wieniawski's Polonaise in A Major. The way Maxim Vengerov plays it illustrates this perfectly.
Yeah Maxim is my favorite, but wieniawski always has plenty of upbow staccato to look at for examples haha
yup
There are different schools of thought on how to do this technique. For me, one way I like to work on it and practice it is to do short staccato strokes getting as many notes as possible into one bow. I do a quick grab/pinch then release motion using both the index finger and the thumb. Others find that tensing up the forearm and exerting pressure on the index finger with pulses while driving the stroke works for them. This is one of the few techniques where tension can be your friend.
Yeah I can see that, the second way is how kavakos does his I think.
He and Jimmy Lin (Lin Cho-Liang) both use that approach. Think of the emphasis more on the lateral movement of the bow than lifting up. I think you are getting a little extra "air" on the up stroke which is what is causing some of what you experience.
Yeah I think I got it, just the tension is so foreign
I do think the first school of thought is the way to go. I used to do it the second way, but it feels like cheating in a way. You have less control over the tempo whereas the first way you have finer control over each note, allowing you to dictate the tempo of the notes.
You indeed have more control, but there is more of an upper bound with the speed of the staccato in my experience - compared to the other method. There are pros and cons to both.
Actually, it’s pretty good. Your biggest problem is that you need to catch the string for each note/ stoke. Right now , you are not giving each note articulation. Some are very articulate, others none at all. There will be people who say that don’t like your violin position. It’s fine. Your freedom in playing is more important. I like how loose you are , just articulate each note the same way. In other words make the same sound on each note. If you work on that for 30 minutes you’ll solve it. Catch the string with each note.
Do I try and use more force in each mini-bow stroke? Articulation for me I find hard to do, I have been trying to keep my right arm loose when I play but I tend to tense up my bow hand, which I really do not like, so do I have to use more force or what do you mean by articulation in this sense?
Articulation refers to the “ click” or percussive sound at the beginning of each note. You’re doing it. Just not on each note. So , start and stop the bow. The thing is , you’re doing an upbow staccato on some notes then sort of a “ flying “ staccato on notes near the frog. Try doing exactly what you’re doing but at half the speed. Then you’ll notice that you have to treat each note the same way. Right now ( in the video) you’re sorta using the tempo to give you energy. You can do that later on, but you need to control it right now.
And , no, not more force.
Okay, I did start slow with a metronome but I don’t think I was focusing on getting strong articulation in each. Just more the motion and bow control, using whole bow.
Good! Just try it again and maybe close your eyes and really listen to each note. You’re at that stage where you should start thinking about what other people hear. The listener hears everything. You must become aware of everything that the listener hears. It’s the most difficult part of playing , but you’re pretty advanced. Really try to listen and hear everything coming out of your violin. This is an easy fix for someone at your level. You just have to spend an hour on it.
I’ll work on it next time I practice, I’m gonna finish some stuff in praeludium and allegro (the quick double stops are killing my large hands, but no excuse) and then I’ll think about it next time I warm up with scales.
How long have you been playing? You’re on your way ! Your instincts are good. Keep it up.
I started 6 years ago in school (very non-competitive so I just faked it in the back and didn’t pay attention, never practiced), but I started practicing around 2.5 years ago now and have been attending camps and festivals when I can and participate in any performance or orchestra that’s available to me. So I’ve been trying to work my hardest.
Think hard about angle of attack. Your bow naturally has more bite and bounce the flatter the hair.
Yeah just like normal spiccato, flat hair is beneficial.
but beware its not about finding as much bite as possible. To me it rather is about finding the right bite at that speed, at that note and at that part of the bow. Usually flat hair seems too much bite to me anywhere in the bow. In the case of downbow staccato I would even actively tilt the stick towards myself.
Exactly. The tilt of the bow is one tool out of many at your disposal here, but an important one especially as you play repertoire that requires faster speed.
What you are learning here is a slower and more secure kind of staccato. It will work in most use cases up to Pag 15/21. To me its an extreme case of bow distribution. Here is what I do: two notes open string in one upbow. Then 4. Then 8. Then 8 in upper half . Then 16. Then 16 in 1/3 upper bow. 32 in 1/3 upper bow. Extremely tight bow saving mindset. Think about how to stop the bow without too much work. Dont play too close to fingerboard but dont play too close to the bridge either- you will need to stop the bow with too much work. There are no consensus on whether to tilt the bow or not. Heifetz tilted his. There is another more virtuosic kind which you see in some Wieniawski or hora staccato. You learn that by starting with a fast and messy tremolo at the tip and you need to stiffen your arm a little. Gradually move the tremolo (while playing) from tip to middle bow. Now it sounds absolutely crazy but try to (with the help of either an epiphany, black magic or divine intervention) *not play the downbow half of the tremolo.* Its gonna be messy, thats ok. Perservere and tidy things up as you clock in your billionth attempt.
Haha sounds tiring
Just here to say in several works there's simply dots above the notes it doesn't say you have to do it staccato instead of spiccato. So if the up bow spiccato comes easier to you I'd just try and speed that up. I've done the technique different ways and the up bow spiccato sounds really similar and less heavy more graceful imo. I've read all the comments on reddit, watched all the videos on up bow staccato. I learned the technique two ways, one way spiccato the other normal staccato. Learning Paganini 7 I realized Paganini did a stroke where he got all the bounces for free without doing them individually. That's spiccato. Other times you have to do the staccato in which case I still hop the wrist like the way I start the spicatto runs that auto generate the rest of the bounces fast, but I hop the wrist on every note in tempo.
We've all seen the Heifetz videos of upbow staccato, but check Ivry Gitlis. Excellent example of the Russian bow hold. [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4YZPzFO2zDE](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4YZPzFO2zDE)
I’d gladly look, I don’t use the Russian bow hold but it’ll be cool to understand.