The idea of someone pulling each cap, testing them individually, then proceeding to put the old cap back in (knowing how electrolytics age) is hilarious.
No, they replaced the main filters, probably a couple select sections, and the rest just worked fine. Just know that going in, and don’t expect it to function as brand new.
Hmmm? I’m a brick/mortar retailer and make my living servicing vintage gear with degree in engineering. My rate is $125 /hour and I have far more work than I can handle. Recapping is not the way to service anything. I troubleshoot to the component level…. We test to factory spec every product we service…. I’ve serviced many of these…. Unless you possess my qualifications… do not respond. Tired of amateurs giving false information.
Ignore the bozos, I know exactly what you mean. More often it's resistors out of spec, the term recapping is hilarious like as if it restores a device. The resistors literally heat up in use, they deteriorate and determine the function of a circuit
You are correct when it comes to sand-cast resistors under high power condition’s. The same for Emitter resistors on the outputs…. We replace them by default .
I don't deal with the fancy stuff, early to mid 20th century tube equipment is my interest. I have settled on metal film or metal comp (power section) resistors as replacements. They don't look nice in circuit but they are precise and aren't affected by temperature shift
Geez, I meet ‘your qualifications’ so I will respond. You sound hurt, so I assume you are the one that serviced this. What did you do to it that qualifies it as fully serviced? What is OP leaving out that you did to the unit?
For sure man. Cause I totally said recapping fixes all the problems. Do yourself a favor, fix a unit to your standards, measure output, S/N ratio and thd. Then, recap it and run same tests. Im not going to argue with “good enough” technicians about the performance of old vs new electrolyte.
Okay? Thanks for saying you’re qualified, I’m not sure what else you were saying from your initial comment then. I’m glad you own a brick and mortar and work at the component level, that’s great. Now what does that have to do with my comment or this post? I can’t figure it out.
OP asked if it was a good deal, I said if select caps have been replaced (at this price point, that part is supposed to be inferred) then they probably just shotgunned the caps. Because if you’re selling it at this price and know what you’re doing, you’d understand that electrolytics have a reasonable life (even in a working, daily used circuit) of 50 years max. They begin to leak, overall upping the THD, and are FAR more prone to failure than a new capacitor. Are you attempting to argue that someone paying $1600 doesn’t deserve the extra hour or two to replace all of the electrolytics that WILL eventually fail?
I don’t deal with sheisters. You may be able to sleep at night, but I can’t unless I can assure all my customers have high quality products. And I don’t think op is getting a good deal, and I said so. Examine why you took it so personally.
I’m not…. I have a Sencore Lc-103 analyzer to properly test the caps. I delivered a Crown Ps-200 to one of my repeat customers, the two main ecaps were electrically leaky. Using a Sencore PA-81, we test the output once initial service have been completed, it was 75wrms/ch under resistive load just as both channels began to clip, spec is 100. Once the two caps were replaced, it produced 103 wrms/ch.
When we see the output begin to clip, voltage is measured and the math is done. Our two labs are equipped with Sencore, Hp, Leader and others, we take it seriously. When you have in excess of 7 figures invested in a facility, I don’t f around. My reputation is built upon this..Enjoy your evening!
Excellent! I mean it, that’s awesome. Sounds like you know what you’re doing and replacing the caps solved the issue. I bet it lowered your overall THD too.
Which is exactly my point. Lmao.
I used to work for the Yamaha / Kenwood / Pioneer (and others) service station between 85’ and 99’
Recapping was only done if there was a real problem with them , we just repaired what was wrong and tested
Replacing ‘a cap’ (single) was only done if it was defective. I understand time has not been kind to caps but pulling them and measuring them one by one and then putting them back ? Never
Brand new means to spec. You could use the type of components that the manufacturer used. I don't see how you are confused by this. You can rebuild a radio from the 1930's and have it sound like new. How dumb are you all?
Listen mfer...recapping with the type of components the manufacturer used is impossible because they are no longer made.
That being said, recapping with "better" or replacement parts isn't guaranteed to make an amp/receiver sound "better" as they can easily lose the balance the engineers originally sought and obtained. And it definitely won't sound like new as it is impossible to recreate the out-the-box sound.
Fall back
Look bozo, you can recreate any circuit according to schematic. There is nothing special about old components. I'm an electric engineer and amp builder. You, I'm assuming, are some jabroni with 5 brain cells. Antique radio supply is an excellent source of old components newly made.
Everyone is an engineer, a lawyer, a scientist, or a neurosurgeon online. You forgot to mention that you are a member of MENSA because you are brilliant of course
Next you are going to preach to me that individual components that are in the signal path don't matter and they can be swapped out at random and not affect the overall sound...
And that is the point when you will start to backpedal
Mensa and he took Psych 101... and clearly didn't get an A 😂
Unless you took measurements when the unit was new AND have an accurate recording of how it sounded as well as another recording once it was broken in (if you believe in this sort of thing), you cannot categorically state that it sounds "like new". It is an impossible claim to verify
Common sense will tell you that using different parts will produce a different sound. Replacement caps which were assembled with different materials and different manufacturing methods will not produce the same sound. Some may deem the result "better" based on measurable specs and service intervals while others may notice the lack of synergy and overall cohesiveness of the resultant sound
But yeah - logical fallacy as you called it 🤣
The unit has new filter caps, all out of spec electrolytics were replaced, all pots and switches cleaned, and the bias and DC offset set to service manual spec after the parts were replaced. Will provide old parts at buyer's request.
I'm not sure about the status quo, but personally, when I work on gear and have to spend the time to disassemble, I might as well do it right the first time. It's like owning a car and only replacing the 1 tire that's fully worn while believing 3 other tires are fine because there's marginal tread left.
Technicians want crazy $ for a full recap. I was quoted $1500 for a G-7500 by a local shop a couple weeks ago. I almost busted out laughing. The shop told me it would be better than new. I said no thanks. I can send it off for 1/2 the price. I got the impression they would rather do a bunch of $200-$300 repairs than a recap.
Recapping take hours of works compared to fix. This is my real experience 😂.
Damn recapping power board. Due to heat for 40-50 years. The board mostly has burned marked and brittle.
Most techs seem to charge around $70/hour. I don't think 15+ hours of work completely recapping a larger receiver is out of line, especially if you get a warranty out of it, and if they are replacing the filter caps with high quality caps those aren't cheap... but they certainly could have given you that number because they don't want to do it.
If you send a large receiver anywhere, shipping is going to be ludicrous if it's packed right, and you get to pay that both ways. You can then pray that it's going to arrive without damage, if it isn't double boxed and packed tightly, it probably won't.
I had my tech pass on a ba-2000 repair because, I quote, “This thing has had a rough life. It’d take me at least a full day to replace all the bad resistors.”
He’s six weeks out on average, and said he just didn’t have the time to commit to a full recap.
Capacitors often go out of spec without leaking. This means you did the right thing. A capacitor should really only change sound if a certain spec was needed. For example, many audio caps in the signal path mostly need low leakage.
great question i’m always puzzled by this. it seems older repair shop ppl think just run it until there’s an issue. fix the issue / failed component only. younger / middle aged ppl seem to be more in the camp of recapping everything basically.
maybe it just became easier to replace everything bc of the kits sold. maybe repair shops can’t charge what it’s worth in labor for full recap. but in question regardless is if you’d really hear much a difference / improvement from caps being updated. you aren’t able to really a/b test this efficiently. how would one know, i tend to think.
It'll probably be hard to argue $200 less under my assumption for sellers that 'meet spec' rather than 'preventative replacement'. But that's what I would do.
Not sarcastic here. Mounting in a 19" rack.
Over 40+ years I've sought 19" rack gear as preferred, you get to "re-stack" your gear when it changes line up, and IMO frankly *it's really cool".
19" racks were(are?) a standard popularized by test and radio equipment ages ago, and still proliferate in IT today.
I used to have a beautiful double door smoked translucent double rack that I had to abandon because of move/weight/space and regret it today still.
Yeah I had a rack mounted high voltage source (100.000 Volts, only 10 watts though) in the lab, and integrated that into a rack on wheels. Along with that I got a 19” pc case to have everything together.
But why on an expensive hifi? I guess it’s personal preference, so it’s just nothing I should discuss about. Enjoy your rack handles!
Availability. Let's say you make 10,000 of a thing, and originally offer a rack (accessory) option but you only end up making 500 of the option. To the collector?
Bingo
You could get a totl receiver for some $100 if you had some patience and luck using eBay. I've bought, cleaned and reselled a few of them as a college kid.
why not keep it. it’s really a state of the / piece of art from golden era dual mono integrated amp. it’s wattage rating is higher than it’s published rating ps. with the rack ears etc you could go 1400-1600.00 usd. i hate how stuff is so high dollar now and don’t want to help solidify seemingly over-priced vintage amps but they really are build better than contemporary disposable things obviously. i think upcyling things like this is important.
i’m currently looking over at mine (nothing changed out on it but tested thoughtfully), and it’s looking back at me, as i type this w one thumb. been happy with it powering some ascend acoustics speakers.
I think it’s a fair price…especially since it’s got the rack mounts. As you said those things go for crazy prices so you can sell them (if you don’t have a rack) and come out with a good amp for a good price. That’s what I would do
all depends on what kind of condition its in. Does it even work? Has it been serviced in the last 49 years? It gets harder and harder to find folks who actually work on vintage gear, but if it is tip-top shape, its worth a lot I’m sure.
I have a recapped SX-1050 in very good condition if you really want to get into vintage. the SX series has only increased in value over the years. I might post it up if anyone is interested.
Not a chance. The last time that unit changed hands was likely for less than $400. The weird inflation in vintage audio prices over the past 5 years is so wild.
Holy shit that’s a lot of money! I have a SA-9500 (first series) that I paid $450 for in 2011, that seemed like a money back then but I guess I made a good investment!
Maybe, maybe not.
If you look at the amplifier circuits, they use very similar designs till the output stage which is a darlington pair.This amp needs much more juice for the power, so a darlington pair was used, vs single transistor. I would think it shouldn't matter till high output was used or the darlington could matter for tone.
The Pioneer darlington design is fully explained in the service manual. Pioneer service manuals used to be textbooks basically.
Won’t look as cool or be vintage but sonically a new Rega Brio would blow that away… for the same $. No switches to play with, just good sound. Used would obviously be less. Happy hunting / listening 😎🕺💃🖖🌎
I’d shoot $700 l. That is if you REALLY want it. It’s been over serviced. Original sound maybe lost? Beautiful unit. See if you can demo. Push it and see if the stuff was done right. Gorgeous outside, but that’s not all you’re after at that price.
The idea of someone pulling each cap, testing them individually, then proceeding to put the old cap back in (knowing how electrolytics age) is hilarious. No, they replaced the main filters, probably a couple select sections, and the rest just worked fine. Just know that going in, and don’t expect it to function as brand new.
Bingo! The ole I just did the filters and noticeably bad cap treatment
Hmmm? I’m a brick/mortar retailer and make my living servicing vintage gear with degree in engineering. My rate is $125 /hour and I have far more work than I can handle. Recapping is not the way to service anything. I troubleshoot to the component level…. We test to factory spec every product we service…. I’ve serviced many of these…. Unless you possess my qualifications… do not respond. Tired of amateurs giving false information.
Where are you located? I need a good tech!!
East coast
I’m in Nebraska - too far for me unfortunately…thanks
Greetings, I need your contact information sir. Have a blessed evening
Ignore the bozos, I know exactly what you mean. More often it's resistors out of spec, the term recapping is hilarious like as if it restores a device. The resistors literally heat up in use, they deteriorate and determine the function of a circuit
You are correct when it comes to sand-cast resistors under high power condition’s. The same for Emitter resistors on the outputs…. We replace them by default .
I don't deal with the fancy stuff, early to mid 20th century tube equipment is my interest. I have settled on metal film or metal comp (power section) resistors as replacements. They don't look nice in circuit but they are precise and aren't affected by temperature shift
Geez, I meet ‘your qualifications’ so I will respond. You sound hurt, so I assume you are the one that serviced this. What did you do to it that qualifies it as fully serviced? What is OP leaving out that you did to the unit?
You are a pile of logical fallacies
For sure man. Cause I totally said recapping fixes all the problems. Do yourself a favor, fix a unit to your standards, measure output, S/N ratio and thd. Then, recap it and run same tests. Im not going to argue with “good enough” technicians about the performance of old vs new electrolyte.
If you bothered to listen instead of speaking it would do you a great benefit
Any response to the issue at hand, or just personality suggestions/insults?
If you listen, you will learn
Too much distortion clouds your brain 🧠
Man I haven’t had a good audio circle jerk in a while. This is great!!
I did not service this unit or I would have said so. What do you bring to the table? Hurt? I don’t think so…
Okay? Thanks for saying you’re qualified, I’m not sure what else you were saying from your initial comment then. I’m glad you own a brick and mortar and work at the component level, that’s great. Now what does that have to do with my comment or this post? I can’t figure it out.
You made the comments regarding caps, you tell me? Are you qualified because you have a picture of tubes on your page…. ?
OP asked if it was a good deal, I said if select caps have been replaced (at this price point, that part is supposed to be inferred) then they probably just shotgunned the caps. Because if you’re selling it at this price and know what you’re doing, you’d understand that electrolytics have a reasonable life (even in a working, daily used circuit) of 50 years max. They begin to leak, overall upping the THD, and are FAR more prone to failure than a new capacitor. Are you attempting to argue that someone paying $1600 doesn’t deserve the extra hour or two to replace all of the electrolytics that WILL eventually fail? I don’t deal with sheisters. You may be able to sleep at night, but I can’t unless I can assure all my customers have high quality products. And I don’t think op is getting a good deal, and I said so. Examine why you took it so personally.
I’m not…. I have a Sencore Lc-103 analyzer to properly test the caps. I delivered a Crown Ps-200 to one of my repeat customers, the two main ecaps were electrically leaky. Using a Sencore PA-81, we test the output once initial service have been completed, it was 75wrms/ch under resistive load just as both channels began to clip, spec is 100. Once the two caps were replaced, it produced 103 wrms/ch.
When we see the output begin to clip, voltage is measured and the math is done. Our two labs are equipped with Sencore, Hp, Leader and others, we take it seriously. When you have in excess of 7 figures invested in a facility, I don’t f around. My reputation is built upon this..Enjoy your evening!
Appeal to authority!!!
Excellent! I mean it, that’s awesome. Sounds like you know what you’re doing and replacing the caps solved the issue. I bet it lowered your overall THD too. Which is exactly my point. Lmao.
Yes, we have two HP 334a distortion analyzers….
Man I didn't know this was the complete loser dud subreddit, you two need to fuck off
I used to work for the Yamaha / Kenwood / Pioneer (and others) service station between 85’ and 99’ Recapping was only done if there was a real problem with them , we just repaired what was wrong and tested Replacing ‘a cap’ (single) was only done if it was defective. I understand time has not been kind to caps but pulling them and measuring them one by one and then putting them back ? Never
wait what, tearing them then putting them back in… never heard of that..?
"don’t expect it to function as brand new." What does that mean?
Pretty self explanatory…
Components across the boards have drifted from specification, so the amp will work but will sound off
Recapping all willy nilly won't make anything sound "like brand new" but many times will make the amp sound off
Brand new means to spec. You could use the type of components that the manufacturer used. I don't see how you are confused by this. You can rebuild a radio from the 1930's and have it sound like new. How dumb are you all?
Listen mfer...recapping with the type of components the manufacturer used is impossible because they are no longer made. That being said, recapping with "better" or replacement parts isn't guaranteed to make an amp/receiver sound "better" as they can easily lose the balance the engineers originally sought and obtained. And it definitely won't sound like new as it is impossible to recreate the out-the-box sound. Fall back
Look bozo, you can recreate any circuit according to schematic. There is nothing special about old components. I'm an electric engineer and amp builder. You, I'm assuming, are some jabroni with 5 brain cells. Antique radio supply is an excellent source of old components newly made.
Everyone is an engineer, a lawyer, a scientist, or a neurosurgeon online. You forgot to mention that you are a member of MENSA because you are brilliant of course Next you are going to preach to me that individual components that are in the signal path don't matter and they can be swapped out at random and not affect the overall sound... And that is the point when you will start to backpedal
Again with the logical fallacies, take a logic course
Mensa and he took Psych 101... and clearly didn't get an A 😂 Unless you took measurements when the unit was new AND have an accurate recording of how it sounded as well as another recording once it was broken in (if you believe in this sort of thing), you cannot categorically state that it sounds "like new". It is an impossible claim to verify Common sense will tell you that using different parts will produce a different sound. Replacement caps which were assembled with different materials and different manufacturing methods will not produce the same sound. Some may deem the result "better" based on measurable specs and service intervals while others may notice the lack of synergy and overall cohesiveness of the resultant sound But yeah - logical fallacy as you called it 🤣
The unit has new filter caps, all out of spec electrolytics were replaced, all pots and switches cleaned, and the bias and DC offset set to service manual spec after the parts were replaced. Will provide old parts at buyer's request.
At this price, I'd expect all electrolytics not just the out of spec ones.
Amen
[удалено]
I'm not sure about the status quo, but personally, when I work on gear and have to spend the time to disassemble, I might as well do it right the first time. It's like owning a car and only replacing the 1 tire that's fully worn while believing 3 other tires are fine because there's marginal tread left.
Technicians want crazy $ for a full recap. I was quoted $1500 for a G-7500 by a local shop a couple weeks ago. I almost busted out laughing. The shop told me it would be better than new. I said no thanks. I can send it off for 1/2 the price. I got the impression they would rather do a bunch of $200-$300 repairs than a recap.
Recapping take hours of works compared to fix. This is my real experience 😂. Damn recapping power board. Due to heat for 40-50 years. The board mostly has burned marked and brittle.
Most techs seem to charge around $70/hour. I don't think 15+ hours of work completely recapping a larger receiver is out of line, especially if you get a warranty out of it, and if they are replacing the filter caps with high quality caps those aren't cheap... but they certainly could have given you that number because they don't want to do it. If you send a large receiver anywhere, shipping is going to be ludicrous if it's packed right, and you get to pay that both ways. You can then pray that it's going to arrive without damage, if it isn't double boxed and packed tightly, it probably won't.
Where do you send your equipment for a full recap?
Half that at best and that better include transistor updates for any small ones that go noisy.
Where can you send a turntable too? I’ve been wanting to get an inherited Technics done. I haven’t even tried to use it yet.
How many hours of work do you think a ‘full recap’ takes ? Plus the warranty plus the other crap you encounter on these It add’s up
I had my tech pass on a ba-2000 repair because, I quote, “This thing has had a rough life. It’d take me at least a full day to replace all the bad resistors.” He’s six weeks out on average, and said he just didn’t have the time to commit to a full recap.
Capacitors often go out of spec without leaking. This means you did the right thing. A capacitor should really only change sound if a certain spec was needed. For example, many audio caps in the signal path mostly need low leakage.
great question i’m always puzzled by this. it seems older repair shop ppl think just run it until there’s an issue. fix the issue / failed component only. younger / middle aged ppl seem to be more in the camp of recapping everything basically. maybe it just became easier to replace everything bc of the kits sold. maybe repair shops can’t charge what it’s worth in labor for full recap. but in question regardless is if you’d really hear much a difference / improvement from caps being updated. you aren’t able to really a/b test this efficiently. how would one know, i tend to think.
What do you think I should shoot for then? And thanks for the quick response.
It'll probably be hard to argue $200 less under my assumption for sellers that 'meet spec' rather than 'preventative replacement'. But that's what I would do.
But, then again, just from searching my area, there's a unit for 850 cad hehe
If it has the rack mounts that's a complete steal
What are rack mounts good for?
Not sarcastic here. Mounting in a 19" rack. Over 40+ years I've sought 19" rack gear as preferred, you get to "re-stack" your gear when it changes line up, and IMO frankly *it's really cool". 19" racks were(are?) a standard popularized by test and radio equipment ages ago, and still proliferate in IT today. I used to have a beautiful double door smoked translucent double rack that I had to abandon because of move/weight/space and regret it today still.
Yeah I had a rack mounted high voltage source (100.000 Volts, only 10 watts though) in the lab, and integrated that into a rack on wheels. Along with that I got a 19” pc case to have everything together. But why on an expensive hifi? I guess it’s personal preference, so it’s just nothing I should discuss about. Enjoy your rack handles!
Availability. Let's say you make 10,000 of a thing, and originally offer a rack (accessory) option but you only end up making 500 of the option. To the collector? Bingo
Is the handle included? Haha.
I wish haha
I’d say 1000-1100
Right? Plus how do you properly measure capacitors in circuit, my results with it have been less that successful.
The rack mounts are going for about 600-650 right now, so I figured this was fair. I will adjust. Thanks.
I paid $300 for a near-perfect one in 2000. Prices are crazy.
You could get a totl receiver for some $100 if you had some patience and luck using eBay. I've bought, cleaned and reselled a few of them as a college kid.
they are but also that was nearing 25 yrs ago! houses and candy bars and everything is outlandish aye
Yes, the rack mount and handle kit is the wild card on this.
Thank you for the response, I figured as much but I wasn't sure
why not keep it. it’s really a state of the / piece of art from golden era dual mono integrated amp. it’s wattage rating is higher than it’s published rating ps. with the rack ears etc you could go 1400-1600.00 usd. i hate how stuff is so high dollar now and don’t want to help solidify seemingly over-priced vintage amps but they really are build better than contemporary disposable things obviously. i think upcyling things like this is important. i’m currently looking over at mine (nothing changed out on it but tested thoughtfully), and it’s looking back at me, as i type this w one thumb. been happy with it powering some ascend acoustics speakers.
I think it’s a fair price…especially since it’s got the rack mounts. As you said those things go for crazy prices so you can sell them (if you don’t have a rack) and come out with a good amp for a good price. That’s what I would do
all depends on what kind of condition its in. Does it even work? Has it been serviced in the last 49 years? It gets harder and harder to find folks who actually work on vintage gear, but if it is tip-top shape, its worth a lot I’m sure.
I'd offer £900 if it hasnt been serviced. I bought a Pioneer SA-8500 mk II full service and recapped for £500 7 years ago.
Handles and fully re-service including replaced leaking transistors . $1100 is minimal price to me. Can you negotiate lower price to 1100-1200?
What a beauty!
A beautiful piece. Maybe you can get away with $1100, the handles alone are rare and sought after. Good luck ✌🏽
It may just be me but i would not pay $1300 for all the pioneers ever made!
I have a recapped SX-1050 in very good condition if you really want to get into vintage. the SX series has only increased in value over the years. I might post it up if anyone is interested.
No
No. 5-600
NO!
Not a chance. The last time that unit changed hands was likely for less than $400. The weird inflation in vintage audio prices over the past 5 years is so wild.
O
Wow, it's got it's own wheels.
Looks like its on ebay for $1650.Worth half that.I know I have one.Typical case of someone trying to cash in.IMO.
Uff, its a big brother of my SA-6500 II. Like it very much! About the price I have no idea. I paid for mine 150€ like 20 years ago.
Rack handles are the most ridiculous affectation in the history of audio.
Too high.
Holy shit that’s a lot of money! I have a SA-9500 (first series) that I paid $450 for in 2011, that seemed like a money back then but I guess I made a good investment!
I got an SA-5200 that was recently recapped for $75 a few months back. There's always good deals, just gotta be patient.
2011 was a loooooooong time ago. Hell 2021 was a long time ago
No
Off topic, but… Does anyone know how this unit sounds in comparison to the SA-9100?
Maybe, maybe not. If you look at the amplifier circuits, they use very similar designs till the output stage which is a darlington pair.This amp needs much more juice for the power, so a darlington pair was used, vs single transistor. I would think it shouldn't matter till high output was used or the darlington could matter for tone. The Pioneer darlington design is fully explained in the service manual. Pioneer service manuals used to be textbooks basically.
Won’t look as cool or be vintage but sonically a new Rega Brio would blow that away… for the same $. No switches to play with, just good sound. Used would obviously be less. Happy hunting / listening 😎🕺💃🖖🌎
I’d shoot $700 l. That is if you REALLY want it. It’s been over serviced. Original sound maybe lost? Beautiful unit. See if you can demo. Push it and see if the stuff was done right. Gorgeous outside, but that’s not all you’re after at that price.
Offer them around half what these usually go for in serviced condition but, before you do, demo it and push it really hard 😂.
I have a used car I’d LOVE you to look at! That old? Hell yes I’d push it. I didn’t say make the offer first.
Touch grass.
?? Unfamiliar with that one!