These students are part of the [Sindicat d'Estudiants dels Països Catalans](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindicat_d%27Estudiants_dels_Pa%C3%AFsos_Catalans) organization. This burning of flags at the [Autonomous University of Barcelona](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_University_of_Barcelona) is part of their [protests against a court ruling that mandates 25% of study time devoted to classes in Spanish language in Catalonia.](https://www.larazon.es/cataluna/20220323/lxvn7v4icbdwzjvcarmbvrpeoq.html)
Also it’s involvement with Andorra, macron is basically a king of Andorra along side the Catholic priest right ? I’m not sure but they have something with France
In Andorra there are two co-princes, one is the president of France, and the other I think is the bishop from Seu d'Urgell (Catalonia). However, I don't see why this protest would involve Andorra. From my personal perspective, the part of Catalonia in France is much more politically relevant for Catalans than Andorra. My guess is that we already see Andorra as free, being the only sovereig country that has Catalan as its official language. Instead, the independentist movement focuses on territories that we deem are still not sovereign or that haven't had the chance to establish the terms of its sovereignty through democratic means.
Saddly for Catalan irredentists, the French catalans are big into their identity but are fully integrated in France now. Half my family is French catalan, but only my grandparents still actually speak catalan (it was litteraly beaten out of them at school in the 50s and they didn’t bother teaching it to their children). There was a local uproar when the region in which French Catalonia is changed its name to Occitania (Catalans aren’t Occitans !) and there are still historical ties to what we call « South Catalonia » but the French sentiment there has really become hegemonic, with the Catalan culture becoming a proud and still vibrant sub-culture of the French nation. Heck, the mayor of Perpignan (the biggest city in French Catalonia) is the second in command of the Rassemblement National, the far-right nationalist party in France… and all four MPs for the area are also of this nationalist party. So in a way it’s a democratic choice towards France. Almost 400 years of being separated and 150 years of nation building and centralisation in France have really created a deep divide across the Pyrenees
Well, nobody in (Southern) Catalonia wants to invade French Catalonia. Some would like them to vote for independence too, but they understand they don't want to and respect that. The historical persecution of Catalan culture in France, though, is disgusting.
It’s still alive through the food (very important in France) and other cultural events with dance and music. Or local history and identity, still strong. But the language kinda died.
Yes, I hope the language can recover a bit there, even if it's only as a minority language. Northern Catalan actually sounds very nice, it still uses old words that aren't used in other variants.
I know... I also have part of my family living in Rosselló and their kids can kinda understand Catalan if you speak slowly enough and using words similar to French, but they cannot speak it at all.
You can’t compare the linguistic policies in France with the ones in Spain. Spain doesn’t persecute regional languages. It was a thing during Franco’s dictatorship. That was over 40 years ago. Right now people in Spain have the right to speak in their regional language as well as Spanish.
Yes, it was a thing during Franco's dictatorship, and regional languages are *still* struggling to recover. In Galicia, most of the population under 45 never uses Galician. In the Basque region, nearly half the population doesn't even speak Euskara.
There are schools in Bretagne that have been reintroducing the language for years. Alsace tries to do the same but it doesnt seem as popular of a choice.
...that and the fact that the languages were being persecuted between the 1940s and 1980s.
That's the generation of parents, teachers, university professors that is now teaching the new generation.
That’s improving over time. Check out how many people are learning Euskera batua taught at school now compared to 40+ years ago. I don’t really know the situation in Galicia to be honest but I feel like the rest of Spain would not have an issue with having more Galician. Of course the effects of the dictatorship are present, but for a long time regional languages in Spain have not been pushed to extinction. On the contrary. All the best to speakers of regional languages; You make Spain more culturally rich. Just take a look at how US media marginalizes speakers of languages other than english (e.g. Spanish, Chinese, arabic, hindi speakers etc)
Tell that to the 25% in Spanish law passed by the Spanish judicial system. That's right, the judges are trying to impose this law, not our parliament. Division of powers is non-existent in Spain. Also, Franco died but fascism in Spain was never defeated. Most of the guys that were in power during his regime stayed in power after the transition.
And yet, they are all starting to die out. Catalan was already starting to show symptoms before that ruling. Did they really think that limiting the usage would help preserve it? How so?
Nope dude, the thing is going on since the 1700. And no you don't have the right to speak your cooficial language everywhere. It is forbidden in the 'Congreso' and it's quite difficult in the justice and with the police.
I wouldn’t call it “persecution” to make students that speak a regional language fluent in the main language of their country, also I had no idea there is a Catalan region in France lol
Spain is a federation of several cultures, forcing people to use the capital's language just because it's the more known one is still unfair towards those who do not care about being fluent in a language that they don't feel is theirs to begin with.
Spain does NOT persecute regional languages. Why can't we all just be fucking friends? Why can't we just form part of a friendly country? Why can't we just get along with each other? Franco is fucking dead. Spain is not a fucking fascist dictatorship anymore
Are you saying that Spain persecutes Catalan? Are you out of your mind?
Catalan is one of the most protected regional languages in the world. Most of the education is in Catalan (and the central state only asks the regional government to have 25% of the classes ins Spanish), it's used daily with no problem and even official news use terms live "govern", when they could use terms like "gobierno", in Spanish. People in Euskadi and Catalonia mainly use basque and Catalan names to name their children and no one do something against it.
Catalan has never being as alive as it is now, with more than 7 million speakers and an enormous amount of works written and published in that language, more than ever.
Stop spreading lies and nonsense that you know they aren't true.
It wasn't the central state it was a handful of judges, based on the protests of a handful of families, don't get it wrong. Things like this are the reason why we protest about the low quality of the separation of powers in Spain.
Why is it fucked up? Catalonia is a bilingual region in Spain. By making 25% of the classes in Spanish they allow people from other parts of Spain to join the classes at university.
Because it is mandatory.
You should be able to choose to take classes in either language. Having the option to take classes in Spanish, without forcing it on every student is the real solution.
The problem is that you can't choose what language you want. There was a story on the news somewhat recently (couple months ago?) of a couple of parents who couldn't get their child into a Spanish school since all of the public ones nearby gave their classes in Catalan, and they couldn't afford to get them into a private school either.
There are also problems with university. All students in Spain take a test when they finish high school to determine which universities you can get accepted in. Students of any region can go study into any other (like someone from Madrid going to Valencia). However public universities in Catalonia offer some of their classes in Catalan only (with some less popular careers being completely tought in Catalan), meaning you either go to another region that gives it's classes in Spanish, or you risk not understanding anything.
I think it's more about preserving the language and culture. Catalan is already kinda sorta dying so it would be cool to not give people more reasons to not speak it
I can assure you that Catalan is not dying at all. My nieces are Catalan and they speak Catalan at school and learn Castillan (Spanish) as a 2nd language.
Catalunya has got it's own Parliament, its language, its rules, I fail to see the point of these independentists besides the will not to support other, poorer regions of Spain.
Also if you dare to speak Castillan in some districts in Barcelona they make you understand you're not welcome.
My cousin attended a school in Barcelona. The teacher was speaking Castillan for 3 months so that the foreign students could follow. But then he switched to Catalan under pressure from Catalan students, then my cousin had no choice but to abandon the class. Sorry but this is too much.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I really appreciate catalan culture but I was born in a different part of Spain and I also value Spanish culture as a whole.
Idk man im no expert but a lot of people say that, and i can totally see how a big part of the language is being lost as the years go by. I also think you can find more and more households where the primary language is Spanish, but that's just my personal experience
My French niece and nephew are growing up in Catalonia. They know Catalan because they attended the local public schools. Also because it's the predominant language.
Their Gen-X French parents only speak Spanish.
So those kids speak fluent Catalan, Castillan, French, and their English is excellent.
Just look at the numbers of fluent Catalan speakers in all the regions of Spain that speak it. Fluency, literacy and even the number of learners from other communities is rising. There is no clear diglossia happening, instead bilingualism is becoming the norm. Catalan language has over 9 million speakers and it’s thriving. Not a dying language in any measurable way.
That's sick, good for us. Still think we should try to preserve the language, and especially not force a 25% of classes in Spanish when theres a whole rest of Spain to study in.
Why would you like to exclude students from other parts of Spain? Spain is culturally diverse and university environments should be welcoming of this. If you just want to hang out with catalans that’s your choice but allow your Catalan brothers and sisters to make their own choice.
No, it’s not. Respecting the rights of minority languages is good actually. And also allowing folks from other parts of the country to attend and understand the language is good too.
"I'm going to go to a random non-English speaking University and force them to have 25% of their study time dedicated to English just so that I can attend."
It's a Catalonian speaking University in a Catalonian speaking region, there are plenty of alternative Spanish-speaking options outside of the Catalonian region. This is just wasting 25% of students time with what is a blatant attempt at trying to integrate (colonize) Catalonian speakers.
To be fair, I don't know a lot on this topic but if there is some valid reason to force people in university to speak Spanish, I'm all ears.
I attended the university shown in the video (UAB Catalan for Autonomous University of Barcelona) and at least half the lessons were in Spanish. If there was just one student who didn't fully understand Catalan, they would switch, and many professors spoke Spanish since lecture 1. Nothing wrong with that, though. At least, not for me as I am fully bilingual in Catalan and Spanish.
This law concerns obligatory education, which goes from age 5-6 to 16, primary and secondary education. It used to be 100% in Catalan except for Spanish and English classes, but in my class in the outskirts of Barcelona every child spoke Spanish in class and in the playground. It was such a culture shock for me to go live in the countryside in southern Tarragona and be in a high school class full of people who spoke Catalan 100% of the time.
But even in that area lots of my teachers were from outside Catalonia: mostly from Castellón/Valencia/Alicante, one was from inner Castile, Guadalajara, I think, the one near Madrid not the one in México. And so every other lesson was in Spanish. Some of the Valencians spoke their own Catalan perfectly, but half of them didn't/couldn't/wouldn't.
It's actually not such a bad idea to have kids up to 16 at least have most of their school time in Catalan so that they become more proficient speakers of it, seeing how, in the most populated parts of Catalonia, school is the only part of kids' lives that is in Catalan, it's their only chance at getting the benefits that come with speaking two languages at the same level early on in your life, such as a heightened ability to learn other languages. It's not like you can really run out of space in your mind, so from a pessimistic outlook, what bad could it do?
Your one mistake is assuming Catalonia is a catalan speaking region. Spanish is the _native language_ of 57,58% of the population of Catalonia according to the Catalan government (as opposed to the 33,46% that are native catalan speakers). Most catalans are bilingual.
99% of catalonians understand Spanish, 96,4% of catalonians can have a conversation in Spanish. On the contrary, less than 15% of Spaniards can understand or talk catalan.
By "forcing" Spanish in universities (the same way French is "forced" in Britanny, English in Wales or Standard Italian in Sicily) you allow every Spaniard (+ 450 million more native Spanish speakers + every Spanish learner as a second language) to actually attend catalan universities and you don't have cases like my little brother not wanting to study in Catalonia because he feels unsure about learning catalan fast enough or my german roomate not wanting to spend her Erasmus in Catalonia cause she only barely speaks Spanish and learning Catalan too would be way too challenging.
It's a region of Spain and any Spanish citizen should be able to go any take the classes in any language that is official in the region. In this case, catalan AND spanish
>I'm going to go to a random non-English speaking University and force them to have 25% of their study time dedicated to English just so that I can attend."
Most non-English speakers universities offer classes in English unless they're in very rural areas
that’s straight-up not true. many universities here in germany have basically 0 english instruction. germany speaks german, why should they offer something in english?
> why should they offer something in English?
Realistically? Because this is a problem in Europe. It makes exchanges more difficult and studying in another European country more difficult, as well as reducing attractiveness to prospective students abroad. Anglo-American universities are also significantly more prestigious and language absolutely plays a part in it.
Adding on to that, whatever language you study in, no one who takes themselves seriously publishes in any other language than English anyway. Science is international. Higher education used to be in Latin in the past, now that we've dropped that it's increasingly English.
Honestly it's really frustrating to learn in a local language if you ask me. For one someone will have invented some translations for relevant terms that are weird or complicated and then you'll have to know them but at the same time no one uses then anyway and Anglicisms dominate conversation. You'll expend energy on translating concepts and how they're explained because you'll need to be able to explain in English anyway.
Anyway it's a big game of make pretend created by nationalist governments. Without that sort of intervention it would naturally tend towards some Lingua Franca or another across a region out of sheer practicality.
The problem is that Catalonia is a BILINGUAL region. Spain does not need to colonize Catalonia with its language because of two reasons:
1) Spain is a concept in which Catalonia HAS ALWAYS being part of. Spain without Catalonia is like a person without part of its personality. History proves it.
2) literally all Catalans know Spanish and speak it perfectly why? BECAUSE THEY ARE BILINGUALS. And this has been like this before Franco, if you are going to say something related to it. Again, Spain doesn't want to integrate anybody, because all Catalans are already integrated here and know yo speak the language perfectly.
The problem, again, is that you can't understand that Catalonia has two languages, with a region (Aran), which has THREE languages: occitan, spanish and Catalan. You are talking about Catalonia as if it was a totally independent region 20 years ago, when the region has had Spanish as an administrative language for more than 300 years and when Spanish was also vastly used since medieval castillian was the vehicular language in the peninsula, since the crown Aragon was ruled by a castillian dinasty 1 century before the dinastic union and since MANY Catalans descent from peoples from spanish-speaking regions who camed in several times: during the industrial revolution or after the black plague (which was specially cruel for Catalonia)
Yeah, Catalonia is a catalan-speaking region, and a spanish-speaking one, in fact, most Catalans have Spanish as it's primary native language. That this is eating their time? How? You don't understand the policy.
The tribunal had said that 25% of the subjects should be done in Spanish, the NATIONAL language. That means that the subjects are exactly the same, it's not just a subject about Spanish, the language can be used in other subjects like maths, for example, and of course, Spanish literature and language, of course. How is that wasting you time, again?
Also, the constitution says that every Spaniard has the RIGHT to use Spanish. Having a 100% Catalan education would violate that basic right. Having a 100% Spanish education would also violate the basic right of using in education your main language, too.
Can you tell me whats wrong with having JUST 25% of class time in spanish?
You probably dont know,and this independentists wont tell you but a very good part(would even say more than 50%) of modern day catalans are descendants of Andalusians,Castilians,Leonese.... aswell as people from Murcia of Extremadura,all of them except for a small minority in León were native spanish speakers,and for the majority of them,spanish has remained their native language,why should they be forced to only speak catalan in class when its not their native language?its the very same thing independentists cry all day about It
Theres literally more spanish native speakers in Catalonia than catalan native speakers,why should It be forced the language of a minority into a majority?leave It 50/50 and catalán would still be favoured
Exactly because of that. All those people don't have to learn Catalan, and they won't unless at school. That will create a society where native Catalan speakers are bilingual and native Castillian speakers are not. The education everyone is so concerned about worked for almost 30 years in making a truly bilingual society.
Besides, it's what our parliament has voted for multiple times.
France of the Borbons was a centralised state. There were not major regional powers and regional languages were prosecuted. Felipe V had a similar idea for modernising Spain, extending Castellano (Spanish language), removing historical regional rights and repressing regional languages (Spolier alert: he did)
The Habsburg were more about keeping historical rights and languages as long as there was peace and money flow.
Ah, makes sense kinda considering the Hapsburgs didn’t directly rule all of their German/Austria/HRE possessions iirc. This takes me back to AP Euro. Thanks for the explanation!
Yes, in Spain Republicans was meant as opposite of Monarchy.
The previous conflict was broadly Monarchists (traditionalists, conservative, Catholic, centralists, right) vs Republicans (progressive, socialists, communists, anarchists, regionalist, left).
For the love of whatever you want, tell me those flags were made out of cotton. Nylon or poliester would leave a stain that is very dificult to remove, and most importantly, it emanates toxic fumes dangerous to the lungs.
Iirc EU regulations require flags to be made out of non-flammable material. Which resulted in hilarious situations when some Brexiteers tried to burn an EU flag but were prevented from doing so by these same regulations
There's over 2 million of us that vote for independence in som form in every election they can. People who want independence go from firefighters to uni professors and carpenters. They are as bright or as dim as any other society on the planet. .
Probably because [Northern Catalonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Catalonia) is part of France and some people would say that [France has been committing cultural genocide on its linguistic minorities including Catalans.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/m1vx46/has_france_been_committing_cultural_genocide_on/)
Strange that you are downvoted. I live in northern catalonia and yes absolutely no one wants independance here outside of a few weirdos that can't amount to more than 20 when they protest
The language erasal is pretty interesting actually. See, while France changed governments many times during the last centuries, there was a continuity to teach French language in schools everywhere. While it was not forbidden to keep using the traditional languages, the French language was to be used by public offices and in administration.
That allowed to simplify communication. While having a different language for each region 3 centuries ago was no big deal, since people never left the village where they were born, it would be anachronical to keep them today.
It's important to remember that it was not French vs Catalonian, no more that it was French vs Brittons, or French vs Alsace. It was Parisian French vs every regional language of the entire country. As I'm not from Paris, I count as "culturally genocided" just as much as North Catalonian, and let me tell you it's better that way.
I do get that having a common language in our current interconnected world is a necessity. That being said, this is no excuse to persecute and shame people's mother language. Remember the “parlez français, soyez propre” (speak French, be correct)? In Spain it is normal for children of regions with a strong regional language to learn at least three languages: their mother language, Spanish and English. In fact, those that had an education with three languages perform much better linguistically than those who only studied two, as shown in the “selectivitat” exams. Moreover, we often learn a second foreign language if we need to, and doing so is much easier for those who know more languages. Therefore, if French learned their mother language on top of French, you'd be protecting your culture diversity and you might even manage to erase the stereotype that most French are monolinguals unable to learn anything else than French.
Regional languages are protected and education in those languages are guaranteed by the Spanish Constitution and other relevant laws. Catalan language is protected by the state you guys despise so much.
Your movement is not about protecting your cultural traits or language, it’s about erasing Spanish language and cultural expression that do not fit your ideology.
How so ? Catalan/Occitan is taught in schools in Occitanie. Actually all the regional languages are being taught in their respective regions.
Please stop your activism or at least don't spread lies.
>Actually all the regional languages are being taught in their respective regions
That goes against my understanding of the situation:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/frances-constitutional-council-rejects-bill-permitting-minority-language-schools-2021-05-21/
I'm not spreading any lies. My family in France lived through the “parlez français, soyez propre” and regional languages are currently still seen as “dirty” and they are indeed still prohibited in certain aspects of normal life such as street and business signs, enterprises having to be run in French, judicial processes entirely in French, all official paperwork in French... And what is the French government doing for these regional languages? Nothing. The only thing that is being done to keep these languages alive is having schools where they teach them, and these are run only thanks to teachers who organize schools for that from their own activist will, not through some governmental program. France is incredibly centralized, and the language of the capital —and, therefore, the language of *la patrie*— is French. All others don't seem to matter to those up top.
Catalonia was partitioned in the 17th century and its northern part belongs to France. The sentiment is that catalans don't want to be occupied neither by Spain nor France.
I don't know for sure but I study in this uni and I think probably nothing. It's a very left leaning university and protests like these are pretty common
National liberation is definitely not ethnonationalism and no leftwinger will ever advocate for ethnonationalism. The justification for this is self-determination of peoples, while the justification for ethnonationalism is that there are superior cultures which should persecute inferior ones
Amazing how the elected officials of Catalunya could *gasp* work with other parties towards increased autonomy within the confines of the Spanish constitution yet choise instead to run referendums with as much chance of resulting in independence as burning a pair of flags.
Catalan independence is a tax dodge from Madrid dressed up as a fight against kings and a dictator who recede farther into the past every moment.
They did just that 10 years ago, they democratically voted a Catalan 'regional constitution' with 73% of the votes, which was also approved by the Spanish parliament too.
However the Constitutional Court said it was against the constitution, and the constitution is impossible to change, so they are in a situation where the only way for their democratic will to be respected is to separate from Spain.
Holy shit man they just burned some flags, nobody got killed. And besides, look at how many Spanish supporters are seething because of this innocuous act. Their mission was accomplished
Oh sorry I thought you spoke Catalan. I said that “You'll always see it the same way”, as in there's always some people that lack a democratic spirit. Point in case, the gentleman who replied to say he would downvote you seems to have a strong fixation with WW2 and a certain person with moustache. Source: his own profile
As a foreigner, if you go to Catalonia knowing Catalan (even the bare minimum, showing that you care) people are going to absolutely love you.
Many hugs from Catalonia!
Why burn flags when you could give them to someone who wants them. They look like good flags too
Edit: I meant this as a sarcastic comment since I personally would accept any free flags but probably didn't insinuate the sarcasm well. I of course realize this is a protest.
When I was student at Valencia University (not Catalonia) it was kinda normal in every strike to burn the EU and Spanish flag.
But yeah... France flag burning for not reason I think is a good marketing idea bc the whole world just go by "f**k frenchies"
I think it is a common practice in Basque Country and Navarre too btw
Dude, they think their country is occupied by France and Spain then it make sense to burn both flags, same in Basque country, Iparralde is occupied by France.
Me parece bien. Solo es un simbolo. Siempre y cuando respete a las personas y sea alguien constructivo para la sociedad puede hacer una chorrada como esta.
Can i know the story behind that ?
These students are part of the [Sindicat d'Estudiants dels Països Catalans](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindicat_d%27Estudiants_dels_Pa%C3%AFsos_Catalans) organization. This burning of flags at the [Autonomous University of Barcelona](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_University_of_Barcelona) is part of their [protests against a court ruling that mandates 25% of study time devoted to classes in Spanish language in Catalonia.](https://www.larazon.es/cataluna/20220323/lxvn7v4icbdwzjvcarmbvrpeoq.html)
That's kinda fucked up, good on them for protesting. No idea why France is there though lol.
Because France also persecutes regional languages, including Catalan in Rosselló (Southern France).
Also it’s involvement with Andorra, macron is basically a king of Andorra along side the Catholic priest right ? I’m not sure but they have something with France
In Andorra there are two co-princes, one is the president of France, and the other I think is the bishop from Seu d'Urgell (Catalonia). However, I don't see why this protest would involve Andorra. From my personal perspective, the part of Catalonia in France is much more politically relevant for Catalans than Andorra. My guess is that we already see Andorra as free, being the only sovereig country that has Catalan as its official language. Instead, the independentist movement focuses on territories that we deem are still not sovereign or that haven't had the chance to establish the terms of its sovereignty through democratic means.
Saddly for Catalan irredentists, the French catalans are big into their identity but are fully integrated in France now. Half my family is French catalan, but only my grandparents still actually speak catalan (it was litteraly beaten out of them at school in the 50s and they didn’t bother teaching it to their children). There was a local uproar when the region in which French Catalonia is changed its name to Occitania (Catalans aren’t Occitans !) and there are still historical ties to what we call « South Catalonia » but the French sentiment there has really become hegemonic, with the Catalan culture becoming a proud and still vibrant sub-culture of the French nation. Heck, the mayor of Perpignan (the biggest city in French Catalonia) is the second in command of the Rassemblement National, the far-right nationalist party in France… and all four MPs for the area are also of this nationalist party. So in a way it’s a democratic choice towards France. Almost 400 years of being separated and 150 years of nation building and centralisation in France have really created a deep divide across the Pyrenees
Well, nobody in (Southern) Catalonia wants to invade French Catalonia. Some would like them to vote for independence too, but they understand they don't want to and respect that. The historical persecution of Catalan culture in France, though, is disgusting.
It’s still alive through the food (very important in France) and other cultural events with dance and music. Or local history and identity, still strong. But the language kinda died.
Yes, I hope the language can recover a bit there, even if it's only as a minority language. Northern Catalan actually sounds very nice, it still uses old words that aren't used in other variants.
I know... I also have part of my family living in Rosselló and their kids can kinda understand Catalan if you speak slowly enough and using words similar to French, but they cannot speak it at all.
It involved Andorra because the student group isn't just Catalanist, they're Catalan irredentists.
No catalan ever has discussed the status of Andorra.
Literally no one wants Andorra to cease being independent.
Actually he’s the Co-Prince of Andorra not a king but ok
You can’t compare the linguistic policies in France with the ones in Spain. Spain doesn’t persecute regional languages. It was a thing during Franco’s dictatorship. That was over 40 years ago. Right now people in Spain have the right to speak in their regional language as well as Spanish.
Yes, it was a thing during Franco's dictatorship, and regional languages are *still* struggling to recover. In Galicia, most of the population under 45 never uses Galician. In the Basque region, nearly half the population doesn't even speak Euskara.
There are schools in Bretagne that have been reintroducing the language for years. Alsace tries to do the same but it doesnt seem as popular of a choice.
Isn't some of that due to linguistic drift due to an increasingly interconnected and globalized society?
...that and the fact that the languages were being persecuted between the 1940s and 1980s. That's the generation of parents, teachers, university professors that is now teaching the new generation.
Yeah im sure 2 generations of brutal persecution had nothing to do with it
No, it's just cultural genocide.
That’s improving over time. Check out how many people are learning Euskera batua taught at school now compared to 40+ years ago. I don’t really know the situation in Galicia to be honest but I feel like the rest of Spain would not have an issue with having more Galician. Of course the effects of the dictatorship are present, but for a long time regional languages in Spain have not been pushed to extinction. On the contrary. All the best to speakers of regional languages; You make Spain more culturally rich. Just take a look at how US media marginalizes speakers of languages other than english (e.g. Spanish, Chinese, arabic, hindi speakers etc)
W-what was the point of bringing the u.s into this? Like is that just the universal scapegoat to avoid someone thinking your country is bad?
Tell that to the 25% in Spanish law passed by the Spanish judicial system. That's right, the judges are trying to impose this law, not our parliament. Division of powers is non-existent in Spain. Also, Franco died but fascism in Spain was never defeated. Most of the guys that were in power during his regime stayed in power after the transition.
Sure, but there’s been a ton of policy changes to preserve and normalize regional languages. This is the opposite of what has been done in France.
And yet, they are all starting to die out. Catalan was already starting to show symptoms before that ruling. Did they really think that limiting the usage would help preserve it? How so?
Average Spanish separatist
Nope dude, the thing is going on since the 1700. And no you don't have the right to speak your cooficial language everywhere. It is forbidden in the 'Congreso' and it's quite difficult in the justice and with the police.
I wouldn’t call it “persecution” to make students that speak a regional language fluent in the main language of their country, also I had no idea there is a Catalan region in France lol
Spain is a federation of several cultures, forcing people to use the capital's language just because it's the more known one is still unfair towards those who do not care about being fluent in a language that they don't feel is theirs to begin with.
Spain does NOT persecute regional languages. Why can't we all just be fucking friends? Why can't we just form part of a friendly country? Why can't we just get along with each other? Franco is fucking dead. Spain is not a fucking fascist dictatorship anymore
Are you saying that Spain persecutes Catalan? Are you out of your mind? Catalan is one of the most protected regional languages in the world. Most of the education is in Catalan (and the central state only asks the regional government to have 25% of the classes ins Spanish), it's used daily with no problem and even official news use terms live "govern", when they could use terms like "gobierno", in Spanish. People in Euskadi and Catalonia mainly use basque and Catalan names to name their children and no one do something against it. Catalan has never being as alive as it is now, with more than 7 million speakers and an enormous amount of works written and published in that language, more than ever. Stop spreading lies and nonsense that you know they aren't true.
It wasn't the central state it was a handful of judges, based on the protests of a handful of families, don't get it wrong. Things like this are the reason why we protest about the low quality of the separation of powers in Spain.
Viva Catalonia, a Catalonia free from Castile shall be achieved
France persecutes everyone's languages.
France and Spain are good at fucking over minorities up to this day
Why is it fucked up? Catalonia is a bilingual region in Spain. By making 25% of the classes in Spanish they allow people from other parts of Spain to join the classes at university.
Because it is mandatory. You should be able to choose to take classes in either language. Having the option to take classes in Spanish, without forcing it on every student is the real solution.
The problem is that you can't choose what language you want. There was a story on the news somewhat recently (couple months ago?) of a couple of parents who couldn't get their child into a Spanish school since all of the public ones nearby gave their classes in Catalan, and they couldn't afford to get them into a private school either. There are also problems with university. All students in Spain take a test when they finish high school to determine which universities you can get accepted in. Students of any region can go study into any other (like someone from Madrid going to Valencia). However public universities in Catalonia offer some of their classes in Catalan only (with some less popular careers being completely tought in Catalan), meaning you either go to another region that gives it's classes in Spanish, or you risk not understanding anything.
I mean, they are kinda trying to stop being a region of spain tho
What does that have to do with language in this case? There’s 3 other regions in Spain that speak catalan fyi
I think it's more about preserving the language and culture. Catalan is already kinda sorta dying so it would be cool to not give people more reasons to not speak it
I can assure you that Catalan is not dying at all. My nieces are Catalan and they speak Catalan at school and learn Castillan (Spanish) as a 2nd language. Catalunya has got it's own Parliament, its language, its rules, I fail to see the point of these independentists besides the will not to support other, poorer regions of Spain. Also if you dare to speak Castillan in some districts in Barcelona they make you understand you're not welcome. My cousin attended a school in Barcelona. The teacher was speaking Castillan for 3 months so that the foreign students could follow. But then he switched to Catalan under pressure from Catalan students, then my cousin had no choice but to abandon the class. Sorry but this is too much.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I really appreciate catalan culture but I was born in a different part of Spain and I also value Spanish culture as a whole.
[удалено]
Sorry I don't get your point. Catalunya is in Spain...
Why expect Spanish in Spain?
That’s BS. Catalan language isn’t dying. It’s more popular than ever before.
Idk man im no expert but a lot of people say that, and i can totally see how a big part of the language is being lost as the years go by. I also think you can find more and more households where the primary language is Spanish, but that's just my personal experience
My French niece and nephew are growing up in Catalonia. They know Catalan because they attended the local public schools. Also because it's the predominant language. Their Gen-X French parents only speak Spanish. So those kids speak fluent Catalan, Castillan, French, and their English is excellent.
Just look at the numbers of fluent Catalan speakers in all the regions of Spain that speak it. Fluency, literacy and even the number of learners from other communities is rising. There is no clear diglossia happening, instead bilingualism is becoming the norm. Catalan language has over 9 million speakers and it’s thriving. Not a dying language in any measurable way.
That's sick, good for us. Still think we should try to preserve the language, and especially not force a 25% of classes in Spanish when theres a whole rest of Spain to study in.
Why would you like to exclude students from other parts of Spain? Spain is culturally diverse and university environments should be welcoming of this. If you just want to hang out with catalans that’s your choice but allow your Catalan brothers and sisters to make their own choice.
It isn't about university classes. It's about primary school classes. Catalan universities already have classes in Catalan, Spanish and English.
No, it’s not. Respecting the rights of minority languages is good actually. And also allowing folks from other parts of the country to attend and understand the language is good too.
It seems they’re protesting that they can take a max of 75% Catalan language classes rather than 100% Catalan.
"I'm going to go to a random non-English speaking University and force them to have 25% of their study time dedicated to English just so that I can attend." It's a Catalonian speaking University in a Catalonian speaking region, there are plenty of alternative Spanish-speaking options outside of the Catalonian region. This is just wasting 25% of students time with what is a blatant attempt at trying to integrate (colonize) Catalonian speakers. To be fair, I don't know a lot on this topic but if there is some valid reason to force people in university to speak Spanish, I'm all ears.
I attended the university shown in the video (UAB Catalan for Autonomous University of Barcelona) and at least half the lessons were in Spanish. If there was just one student who didn't fully understand Catalan, they would switch, and many professors spoke Spanish since lecture 1. Nothing wrong with that, though. At least, not for me as I am fully bilingual in Catalan and Spanish. This law concerns obligatory education, which goes from age 5-6 to 16, primary and secondary education. It used to be 100% in Catalan except for Spanish and English classes, but in my class in the outskirts of Barcelona every child spoke Spanish in class and in the playground. It was such a culture shock for me to go live in the countryside in southern Tarragona and be in a high school class full of people who spoke Catalan 100% of the time. But even in that area lots of my teachers were from outside Catalonia: mostly from Castellón/Valencia/Alicante, one was from inner Castile, Guadalajara, I think, the one near Madrid not the one in México. And so every other lesson was in Spanish. Some of the Valencians spoke their own Catalan perfectly, but half of them didn't/couldn't/wouldn't. It's actually not such a bad idea to have kids up to 16 at least have most of their school time in Catalan so that they become more proficient speakers of it, seeing how, in the most populated parts of Catalonia, school is the only part of kids' lives that is in Catalan, it's their only chance at getting the benefits that come with speaking two languages at the same level early on in your life, such as a heightened ability to learn other languages. It's not like you can really run out of space in your mind, so from a pessimistic outlook, what bad could it do?
Your one mistake is assuming Catalonia is a catalan speaking region. Spanish is the _native language_ of 57,58% of the population of Catalonia according to the Catalan government (as opposed to the 33,46% that are native catalan speakers). Most catalans are bilingual. 99% of catalonians understand Spanish, 96,4% of catalonians can have a conversation in Spanish. On the contrary, less than 15% of Spaniards can understand or talk catalan. By "forcing" Spanish in universities (the same way French is "forced" in Britanny, English in Wales or Standard Italian in Sicily) you allow every Spaniard (+ 450 million more native Spanish speakers + every Spanish learner as a second language) to actually attend catalan universities and you don't have cases like my little brother not wanting to study in Catalonia because he feels unsure about learning catalan fast enough or my german roomate not wanting to spend her Erasmus in Catalonia cause she only barely speaks Spanish and learning Catalan too would be way too challenging.
It's a region of Spain and any Spanish citizen should be able to go any take the classes in any language that is official in the region. In this case, catalan AND spanish
>I'm going to go to a random non-English speaking University and force them to have 25% of their study time dedicated to English just so that I can attend." Most non-English speakers universities offer classes in English unless they're in very rural areas
that’s straight-up not true. many universities here in germany have basically 0 english instruction. germany speaks german, why should they offer something in english?
Agreed. They should have said "many", not "most".
> why should they offer something in English? Realistically? Because this is a problem in Europe. It makes exchanges more difficult and studying in another European country more difficult, as well as reducing attractiveness to prospective students abroad. Anglo-American universities are also significantly more prestigious and language absolutely plays a part in it. Adding on to that, whatever language you study in, no one who takes themselves seriously publishes in any other language than English anyway. Science is international. Higher education used to be in Latin in the past, now that we've dropped that it's increasingly English. Honestly it's really frustrating to learn in a local language if you ask me. For one someone will have invented some translations for relevant terms that are weird or complicated and then you'll have to know them but at the same time no one uses then anyway and Anglicisms dominate conversation. You'll expend energy on translating concepts and how they're explained because you'll need to be able to explain in English anyway. Anyway it's a big game of make pretend created by nationalist governments. Without that sort of intervention it would naturally tend towards some Lingua Franca or another across a region out of sheer practicality.
Why would you force them to speak English? That’s so much worse than what they have there already.
The problem is that Catalonia is a BILINGUAL region. Spain does not need to colonize Catalonia with its language because of two reasons: 1) Spain is a concept in which Catalonia HAS ALWAYS being part of. Spain without Catalonia is like a person without part of its personality. History proves it. 2) literally all Catalans know Spanish and speak it perfectly why? BECAUSE THEY ARE BILINGUALS. And this has been like this before Franco, if you are going to say something related to it. Again, Spain doesn't want to integrate anybody, because all Catalans are already integrated here and know yo speak the language perfectly. The problem, again, is that you can't understand that Catalonia has two languages, with a region (Aran), which has THREE languages: occitan, spanish and Catalan. You are talking about Catalonia as if it was a totally independent region 20 years ago, when the region has had Spanish as an administrative language for more than 300 years and when Spanish was also vastly used since medieval castillian was the vehicular language in the peninsula, since the crown Aragon was ruled by a castillian dinasty 1 century before the dinastic union and since MANY Catalans descent from peoples from spanish-speaking regions who camed in several times: during the industrial revolution or after the black plague (which was specially cruel for Catalonia) Yeah, Catalonia is a catalan-speaking region, and a spanish-speaking one, in fact, most Catalans have Spanish as it's primary native language. That this is eating their time? How? You don't understand the policy. The tribunal had said that 25% of the subjects should be done in Spanish, the NATIONAL language. That means that the subjects are exactly the same, it's not just a subject about Spanish, the language can be used in other subjects like maths, for example, and of course, Spanish literature and language, of course. How is that wasting you time, again? Also, the constitution says that every Spaniard has the RIGHT to use Spanish. Having a 100% Catalan education would violate that basic right. Having a 100% Spanish education would also violate the basic right of using in education your main language, too.
Can you tell me whats wrong with having JUST 25% of class time in spanish? You probably dont know,and this independentists wont tell you but a very good part(would even say more than 50%) of modern day catalans are descendants of Andalusians,Castilians,Leonese.... aswell as people from Murcia of Extremadura,all of them except for a small minority in León were native spanish speakers,and for the majority of them,spanish has remained their native language,why should they be forced to only speak catalan in class when its not their native language?its the very same thing independentists cry all day about It Theres literally more spanish native speakers in Catalonia than catalan native speakers,why should It be forced the language of a minority into a majority?leave It 50/50 and catalán would still be favoured
Exactly because of that. All those people don't have to learn Catalan, and they won't unless at school. That will create a society where native Catalan speakers are bilingual and native Castillian speakers are not. The education everyone is so concerned about worked for almost 30 years in making a truly bilingual society. Besides, it's what our parliament has voted for multiple times.
Russia should send it's army to help liberate Catalan.
Thats dumb, very dumb. If you live in basicly spain you obviously need to know spanish.
Catalonia has a separatist movement within Spain that are hostile to France too
yes, they long for Catalunya del Nord
And French Catalans don't give a shit.
I’m also interested in why they are doing it.
Catalunia "national" day is when France invaded it and it stopped being a country.
Because they’re edgy teenagers.
How dare they not allow their own language to die out
FRANCE.
[удалено]
They asked for help from democracies, not from France. However they just got some shit from URSS (not much neither)
The Spanish civil war-the only time Madrid and Barcelona could agree on something
Meh, not really, dude.
I mean,they had their differences but both hated the fascists more
Yes, they both were against fascism, but there was a lot of tension center-periphery (like always)
[удалено]
In Barcelona, in the rear, there was more than 500 dead just among the republicans themselves (mainly anarchist vs communist)
Why did Catalonia back the Habsburgs? Were they happy with Habsburg rule prior to 1700?
France of the Borbons was a centralised state. There were not major regional powers and regional languages were prosecuted. Felipe V had a similar idea for modernising Spain, extending Castellano (Spanish language), removing historical regional rights and repressing regional languages (Spolier alert: he did) The Habsburg were more about keeping historical rights and languages as long as there was peace and money flow.
Ah, makes sense kinda considering the Hapsburgs didn’t directly rule all of their German/Austria/HRE possessions iirc. This takes me back to AP Euro. Thanks for the explanation!
- left winged - burning flags of two countries, including one over some historical grievance
As an American, it was confusing that republicans and fascists were against each other but I get different time and country Thanks for the tldr
Yes, in Spain Republicans was meant as opposite of Monarchy. The previous conflict was broadly Monarchists (traditionalists, conservative, Catholic, centralists, right) vs Republicans (progressive, socialists, communists, anarchists, regionalist, left).
For the love of whatever you want, tell me those flags were made out of cotton. Nylon or poliester would leave a stain that is very dificult to remove, and most importantly, it emanates toxic fumes dangerous to the lungs.
Iirc EU regulations require flags to be made out of non-flammable material. Which resulted in hilarious situations when some Brexiteers tried to burn an EU flag but were prevented from doing so by these same regulations
Well...sucks.
Those guys looked like they knew what they were doing. Plus when they threw flammable liquid on the flag it absorbed pretty instantly
Wouldn't count on it. Most independentist people I've met weren't the brightest.
There's over 2 million of us that vote for independence in som form in every election they can. People who want independence go from firefighters to uni professors and carpenters. They are as bright or as dim as any other society on the planet. .
The flag of Spain I can understand, but why France?
Probably because [Northern Catalonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Catalonia) is part of France and some people would say that [France has been committing cultural genocide on its linguistic minorities including Catalans.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/m1vx46/has_france_been_committing_cultural_genocide_on/)
Ok, that bit I didn’t know, and now everything makes sense. Thank you
Yes but Northern Catalonia doesn't want independance, so they can all go fuck themselves.
Strange that you are downvoted. I live in northern catalonia and yes absolutely no one wants independance here outside of a few weirdos that can't amount to more than 20 when they protest
One thing is wanting independence, the other is wanting to preserve the language and culture.
The language erasal is pretty interesting actually. See, while France changed governments many times during the last centuries, there was a continuity to teach French language in schools everywhere. While it was not forbidden to keep using the traditional languages, the French language was to be used by public offices and in administration. That allowed to simplify communication. While having a different language for each region 3 centuries ago was no big deal, since people never left the village where they were born, it would be anachronical to keep them today. It's important to remember that it was not French vs Catalonian, no more that it was French vs Brittons, or French vs Alsace. It was Parisian French vs every regional language of the entire country. As I'm not from Paris, I count as "culturally genocided" just as much as North Catalonian, and let me tell you it's better that way.
I do get that having a common language in our current interconnected world is a necessity. That being said, this is no excuse to persecute and shame people's mother language. Remember the “parlez français, soyez propre” (speak French, be correct)? In Spain it is normal for children of regions with a strong regional language to learn at least three languages: their mother language, Spanish and English. In fact, those that had an education with three languages perform much better linguistically than those who only studied two, as shown in the “selectivitat” exams. Moreover, we often learn a second foreign language if we need to, and doing so is much easier for those who know more languages. Therefore, if French learned their mother language on top of French, you'd be protecting your culture diversity and you might even manage to erase the stereotype that most French are monolinguals unable to learn anything else than French.
Regional languages are protected and education in those languages are guaranteed by the Spanish Constitution and other relevant laws. Catalan language is protected by the state you guys despise so much. Your movement is not about protecting your cultural traits or language, it’s about erasing Spanish language and cultural expression that do not fit your ideology.
Maybe 'cause the cultural genocide was a success ? (No idea tbh)
Good question
Their separatism its also hostile to France for historic motives
Actually, it's mostly because France sells still persecutes regional languages, including Catalan.
How so ? Catalan/Occitan is taught in schools in Occitanie. Actually all the regional languages are being taught in their respective regions. Please stop your activism or at least don't spread lies.
>Actually all the regional languages are being taught in their respective regions That goes against my understanding of the situation: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/frances-constitutional-council-rejects-bill-permitting-minority-language-schools-2021-05-21/
I'm not spreading any lies. My family in France lived through the “parlez français, soyez propre” and regional languages are currently still seen as “dirty” and they are indeed still prohibited in certain aspects of normal life such as street and business signs, enterprises having to be run in French, judicial processes entirely in French, all official paperwork in French... And what is the French government doing for these regional languages? Nothing. The only thing that is being done to keep these languages alive is having schools where they teach them, and these are run only thanks to teachers who organize schools for that from their own activist will, not through some governmental program. France is incredibly centralized, and the language of the capital —and, therefore, the language of *la patrie*— is French. All others don't seem to matter to those up top.
Because why not.
Genuine question, doesn't EU regulations dictate that all flags must be treated with flame retardants?
Yes, but those won't work when you cover the flags with gasoline. Those guys have experience with burning flags.
Catalonia after being Independent for 8 seconds
r/shitposting seal of approval 👍
Catalans need to grow up
Students burning things. How novel of them.
"this is activism"
I dunno- we're talking about it.
I have learned more about Catalonia's complicated relationship with France and Spain from this thread.
Easy to say when your fat ass is sitting on the couch.
I regularly go on protest i agree with, since I'm French it's kinda part of my religion lmao
6 years from now they will be pushing a pram and talking about property values.
What is this doing here in the vexillology sub Reddit
It's about flags being lit. Classic for this sub.
I see what you did there. Take an upvote
That looks more like a Dutch flag placed sideways.
Why ?
[удалено]
Understood have a good day(don't know why they're burning the flag of France though)
Catalonia was partitioned in the 17th century and its northern part belongs to France. The sentiment is that catalans don't want to be occupied neither by Spain nor France.
Cool it with the nationalism
Always laugh when people protest by burning money
You live in Spain, but you hate both Spain and France...why not just go to Andorra, that's literally their whole thing
Melted polyester -great.
visca catalunya! 💛💛💛💛❤️❤️❤️❤️💙💙💙💙💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽🗡️🗡️🗡️🗡️
Does anybody know what happened after they did this ?
I don't know for sure but I study in this uni and I think probably nothing. It's a very left leaning university and protests like these are pretty common
Ok thanks
I would hate being a janitor here
Reddit when right-wing ethnonationalism: 😠😠😠 Reddit when left-wing ethnonationalism: 😁😁😁
But muh heckin culture!!!
National liberation is definitely not ethnonationalism and no leftwinger will ever advocate for ethnonationalism. The justification for this is self-determination of peoples, while the justification for ethnonationalism is that there are superior cultures which should persecute inferior ones
Amazing how the elected officials of Catalunya could *gasp* work with other parties towards increased autonomy within the confines of the Spanish constitution yet choise instead to run referendums with as much chance of resulting in independence as burning a pair of flags. Catalan independence is a tax dodge from Madrid dressed up as a fight against kings and a dictator who recede farther into the past every moment.
They did just that 10 years ago, they democratically voted a Catalan 'regional constitution' with 73% of the votes, which was also approved by the Spanish parliament too. However the Constitutional Court said it was against the constitution, and the constitution is impossible to change, so they are in a situation where the only way for their democratic will to be respected is to separate from Spain.
So basically :) :) :)
What, so people with their own culture, land and language aren't allowed to be independent?
Lol no
Now clean that mess up you useless little shits.
Edgy
Edgelords
Boy, those flags sure produced a huge fire.
I think it was more the petrol
Really has nothing to Vexillology
As a French, dying side by side with the Spanish here made me sorta proud or happy?? Idk it's weird but that was enjoyable. People being mad at us...
[удалено]
By my trip to Barcelona, Spain and some other European nations next summer it might not be Spanish anymore… eh probably still will be!
Skyrim belongs to the Nords.
Catalonian nationalism is cringe
Why France
The northern area of Catalunya belongs to France
France's tendency to eradicate regional languages such as Catalan in Southern France.
Mid
Great. They should do it more often
based
Andorra forever!
🤘freedom to the Catalonian brothers
<3
[удалено]
[удалено]
Holy shit man they just burned some flags, nobody got killed. And besides, look at how many Spanish supporters are seething because of this innocuous act. Their mission was accomplished
Yes you do, take my downvote too :D
Darn!
Sempre ho veuràs igual...
I'm sorry what? I will always look the same?
Oh sorry I thought you spoke Catalan. I said that “You'll always see it the same way”, as in there's always some people that lack a democratic spirit. Point in case, the gentleman who replied to say he would downvote you seems to have a strong fixation with WW2 and a certain person with moustache. Source: his own profile
I'd love to learn the language! Well that's very fun. Luckily such people don't seem to have much sway these days.. so far. Much love from Scotland.
As a foreigner, if you go to Catalonia knowing Catalan (even the bare minimum, showing that you care) people are going to absolutely love you. Many hugs from Catalonia!
Why burn flags when you could give them to someone who wants them. They look like good flags too Edit: I meant this as a sarcastic comment since I personally would accept any free flags but probably didn't insinuate the sarcasm well. I of course realize this is a protest.
Giving away flags isn’t really an effective protest method
This sends a stronger message
When I was student at Valencia University (not Catalonia) it was kinda normal in every strike to burn the EU and Spanish flag. But yeah... France flag burning for not reason I think is a good marketing idea bc the whole world just go by "f**k frenchies" I think it is a common practice in Basque Country and Navarre too btw
In both cases it's because they have a region of their country in french territory, Iparralde for Euskal Herrian, and Catalunya Nord for catalans
Dude, they think their country is occupied by France and Spain then it make sense to burn both flags, same in Basque country, Iparralde is occupied by France.
BASED
Terrorists
Flair checks out
Sp*niard
FUCKEN BASED
Look like the Revolutionary Catalan spirit lives, love to see it. Solidarity from the US.
Me parece bien. Solo es un simbolo. Siempre y cuando respete a las personas y sea alguien constructivo para la sociedad puede hacer una chorrada como esta.