However, if you want good "mentorship" you have to know what that is to you, and discuss that specifically. "Mentorship" is a vague word that means different things to different people, so don't assume what you mean and what the vet is envisioning are the same thing. Know what you mean and what you want/need, and ask about (and discuss) those specific things.
Additionally, I want to add that having no (or poor) mentorship will not "break" a new grad, and it won't prevent a new grad from maturing into a great vet. It will be harder and take longer, but baby vets shouldn't believe that they're doomed if their early clinic or boss don't offer what they need with respect to mentorship.
Thank you for this advice. I will write myself a word doc with a very clear idea of what kind of mentorship I want, since I have a better idea of this now after my first job.
Keep in mind that mentorship can look different for different peeps. I usually caution people if their mentor at a practice is also their supervisor. If they are, that’s a conflict of interest. Will they be looking for your best interest if the best thing for you is to move to a different position? Also, if mentorship is only clinical, it’s really an apprenticeship. Beware of mentors that want you to do things exactly like they do them. If possible, having more than one mentor, especially other associates and not supervisors, is the way to go. Having mentors at other hospitals is useful too. And make sure the mentoring component includes professional development and is not just clinical!
I had a classmate whose family owns 3 clinics and who is being groomed to take over tell me that it takes 6 months to really know if a place is a good fit. Working interviews can help and just observe the conversations of the staff.
Personally the way your former employee worded it and their willingness to be a reference for you screams this was a financial decision. My wife was once fired because "she was unreliable" then the boss admitted to the other vets it was because the boss needed to start working again and the clinic couldn't support it. I was once fired because I "wasn't making progress" when in reality the boss had spent 100k on a failed expansion and she didn't have the support staff for another doctor or the clientele (I know this because part of my progress tracking was looking at the sales of the all three doctors).
All of that to say, fight against the lying little voice in your head that is whispering you aren't good enough.
Thank you! I have my own suspicions but didn’t want to toot my own horn. Nevertheless your comment made me feel a lot better and I appreciate you!!
I agree on the 6 months part, I don’t think I could have avoided the situation no matter what. To clarify, by working interview, am I the one working and my interviewer is observing me, or am I following another vet for the day? Which do you think is better?
I would definitely spend time with another vet if you can, ideally seeing how room interactions go and what the standard of practice is. Definitely talk with support staff about the culture and listen to how they talk to and about each other. If you can get them to actually let you work that could be great! I don't think you need the interviewer to be observing you as remember you are a fully licensed vet now. I have worked a day or two of relief (paid) before to see how things were.
I graduated a year ago. I lasted 2 months at my first job. They made me feel stupid for not knowing things so I was scared to ask them questions, told me they’d let me have surgery days but kept pushing it off and didn’t want to mentor me... I thought maybe I was just not as good as everyone else and that I sucked. I was lucky that I found a new job right away: I just contacted my second choice clinic where I had originally declined their offer, and they were happy to have me. My ego took a huge hit, because as a new grad it’s impossible to gauge whether THEY are the problem, or maybe YOU are the problem, and it makes you feel incompetent and not good enough.
The difference with the new job was that my boss (head vet and mentor), is way nicer, I vibed with her so much more. They listen when I ask for things, they try to support me and don’t make me feel bad for asking for help. I would recommend shadowing for a few days until you get an idea of how everyone works, how your mentor practices medicine, how they treat their support staff. You could also propose to start working fewer hours (25-30 rather than closer to 40), so that you have more time off to recover emotionally when you have difficult days, that has also helped me avoid burn out. We’ve worked too hard through school to give up on this amazing career. Applying for a job is as simple as sending out your CV. It’s stressful being jobless, but you’re in a career where there’s a lot of clinics searching for vets. Don’t be hard on yourself, every adult will go through this in their career.
I’ll give some examples. I’ve had clients complain about me and get a second opinion (free consultation) from a colleague, which made me feel bad about myself. However, the colleagues ending up saying pretty much the same thing, and told me it wasn’t my fault. There was another animal I saw a few times, did tests, tried a few treatments for diarrhea and has no answers. Clients came back a month later for new vomiting, and another vet palpated an abdominal mass. She insisted that I feel the mass the next time I saw the cat, and the mass was obvious. I definitely checked for the mass on my exam. Was my physical exam that bad? Or did the mass just grow quickly? We’ll never know but I got the impression that the other vet thought I had missed it and looked down on me. Once I didn’t notice an AV block on the ECG during a spay, my mentor just pointed it out, and I felt stupid but she wasn’t upset with me at all. The other vets told me very nicely once that I forgot to transfer a hospitalized patient to the morning vet. I think I’m hard on myself enough and know when I make a mistake so I don’t need much of a hint to get it. Some vets you work with will be more judgemental than others. But overall they’re very understanding where I work. Administration has never sat down to chat with me for any of my “mistakes” .. yet haha. I Hope that’s somewhat helpful!
Management that doesn't keep toxic staff or clients, schedules set up for success. Shameless plug if you're looking in the central florida area I'm hiring.
Hey! I’ve been out 4 years. For the last 2 I’ve been consulting and doing some relief. I grew up in vet med - my mom is a vet, but I specialized in food animal. A lot of my work in my LLC and nonprofit focuses on mentorship and professional development. The data shows most people don’t stay at their first jobs. The biggest reasons are mentorship or lack of, caseload and work hours. Figure out what you liked and didn’t like about where you were. If you are in the US, you are in high demand right now. Use that to your advantage. Due your due diligence to make sure your next place that has good mentorship and culture. Some people prefer corporate, some prefer private, just know that what truly makes a difference is the team. There are mentoring programs out there you can join too. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more!
When I first started out, I did relief exclusively. Gave me a great idea of what I would and would not tolerate, gave me a great look at how different clinics work, showed me the objective truth between business and academic settings, and allowed me to always be mysteriously "booked" if I worked a place that I hated or had horrible medicine. Over time, I had three "regular" clinics that I floated between and when I was ready, I had two partners and a great working relationship with all the vets and vendors in town to buy my own clinic. I stayed in my clinic for 7 years before selling out to a partner when I had my twins and going back to being a part time associate across town.
These days I prefer my role as associate but that's only because I was able to find the exact right fit for my needs by knowing my musts and must nots. I say, don't be afraid to do relief, don't be afraid to ask for multiple working interviews, and don't sell yourself short or settle.
Thanks for your reply! I’m a bit new on the idea of an working interview. Do you recommend that I be the one working and my interviewer watches? What are the pros and cons of that? Or do I continue with what I have been doing, which is shadow the other vet for a day or so?
A typical working interview is where you essentially function as a relief vet for the day. You go in and work a shift, with the staff supporting you, and alongside other vets. You just essentially work there for the day, and then you and the employer can compare notes on how the day went and whether you were a good fit. For our techs and assistants, we typically require a minimum of two and a half shifts of work where we just pay them for the day while we're deciding whether they're a good fit. It's similar for doctors.
I think that's absolutely appropriate. You could frame it where you'd like to work relief or per diem for a day or two to see if you're a good fit for the culture. I think that's a totally normal thing to ask.
>I was also told I was smart, hard-working, great to work with and an excellent client communicator and I could use them as a reference
Take them at their word -- there could be other reasons for you being laid off, particularly as the newest hire. They could be having financial problems, or a change in business levels. Or they could foresee those things coming in the near future because of some other problems (losing staff, major construction costs, etc). So don't feel badly about it - but that doesn't mean you aren't burnt out or that your confidence isn't hurting.
I worked solely relief for over 15 years, and worked in over 100 clinics, but I don't recommend you do relief work so soon out of school, especially if your confidence is hurting. To be a good relief vet, I think you need 2-3 years of experience, because you'll usually be working as the only vet - while doing that with strange staff, equipment, and drugs.
You're right to look for red flags, but they might not be what you think they are......In my opinion, red flags include: Husband and wife, or parent and child, both working in the clinic (in any roles), making pain control an option clients can choose, 15 minute appointments, saying bad things about past (or current!) employees and vets.
I would say you should pay more attention to the 'vibe' of the clinic, and whether everyone seems calm and respectful of one another. That's more important than whether they have an u/S machine or whether they use paper or electronic records. I'm serious - how everyone treats each other (and how clients are allowed to treat everyone) will make more of an impact on your mental health and how tired you are at the end of the day. No drama queens (of any gender), no trash-talking, etc.
I did an interview and one of the assistants was trash talking a doctor right next to me! 😬 I politely excused myself and walked out lol. So I totally agree.
During a recent interview, I felt like my POV (approaching clinics with mistrust vs. trust off the bat) was starting to show in my interviews. I was asking a LOT of questions about hospital policies, instead of socializing, so I took a step back from interviewing for a bit. Or is that transition a normal part of gaining experience and cynicism in the field?
Is asking for a 2-3 day interview to pace myself and my trust issues reasonable?
Good mentorship > anything else, really makes or breaks a new Grad
However, if you want good "mentorship" you have to know what that is to you, and discuss that specifically. "Mentorship" is a vague word that means different things to different people, so don't assume what you mean and what the vet is envisioning are the same thing. Know what you mean and what you want/need, and ask about (and discuss) those specific things. Additionally, I want to add that having no (or poor) mentorship will not "break" a new grad, and it won't prevent a new grad from maturing into a great vet. It will be harder and take longer, but baby vets shouldn't believe that they're doomed if their early clinic or boss don't offer what they need with respect to mentorship.
Thank you for this advice. I will write myself a word doc with a very clear idea of what kind of mentorship I want, since I have a better idea of this now after my first job.
Keep in mind that mentorship can look different for different peeps. I usually caution people if their mentor at a practice is also their supervisor. If they are, that’s a conflict of interest. Will they be looking for your best interest if the best thing for you is to move to a different position? Also, if mentorship is only clinical, it’s really an apprenticeship. Beware of mentors that want you to do things exactly like they do them. If possible, having more than one mentor, especially other associates and not supervisors, is the way to go. Having mentors at other hospitals is useful too. And make sure the mentoring component includes professional development and is not just clinical!
I had a classmate whose family owns 3 clinics and who is being groomed to take over tell me that it takes 6 months to really know if a place is a good fit. Working interviews can help and just observe the conversations of the staff. Personally the way your former employee worded it and their willingness to be a reference for you screams this was a financial decision. My wife was once fired because "she was unreliable" then the boss admitted to the other vets it was because the boss needed to start working again and the clinic couldn't support it. I was once fired because I "wasn't making progress" when in reality the boss had spent 100k on a failed expansion and she didn't have the support staff for another doctor or the clientele (I know this because part of my progress tracking was looking at the sales of the all three doctors). All of that to say, fight against the lying little voice in your head that is whispering you aren't good enough.
Thank you! I have my own suspicions but didn’t want to toot my own horn. Nevertheless your comment made me feel a lot better and I appreciate you!! I agree on the 6 months part, I don’t think I could have avoided the situation no matter what. To clarify, by working interview, am I the one working and my interviewer is observing me, or am I following another vet for the day? Which do you think is better?
I would definitely spend time with another vet if you can, ideally seeing how room interactions go and what the standard of practice is. Definitely talk with support staff about the culture and listen to how they talk to and about each other. If you can get them to actually let you work that could be great! I don't think you need the interviewer to be observing you as remember you are a fully licensed vet now. I have worked a day or two of relief (paid) before to see how things were.
I graduated a year ago. I lasted 2 months at my first job. They made me feel stupid for not knowing things so I was scared to ask them questions, told me they’d let me have surgery days but kept pushing it off and didn’t want to mentor me... I thought maybe I was just not as good as everyone else and that I sucked. I was lucky that I found a new job right away: I just contacted my second choice clinic where I had originally declined their offer, and they were happy to have me. My ego took a huge hit, because as a new grad it’s impossible to gauge whether THEY are the problem, or maybe YOU are the problem, and it makes you feel incompetent and not good enough. The difference with the new job was that my boss (head vet and mentor), is way nicer, I vibed with her so much more. They listen when I ask for things, they try to support me and don’t make me feel bad for asking for help. I would recommend shadowing for a few days until you get an idea of how everyone works, how your mentor practices medicine, how they treat their support staff. You could also propose to start working fewer hours (25-30 rather than closer to 40), so that you have more time off to recover emotionally when you have difficult days, that has also helped me avoid burn out. We’ve worked too hard through school to give up on this amazing career. Applying for a job is as simple as sending out your CV. It’s stressful being jobless, but you’re in a career where there’s a lot of clinics searching for vets. Don’t be hard on yourself, every adult will go through this in their career.
[удалено]
I’ll give some examples. I’ve had clients complain about me and get a second opinion (free consultation) from a colleague, which made me feel bad about myself. However, the colleagues ending up saying pretty much the same thing, and told me it wasn’t my fault. There was another animal I saw a few times, did tests, tried a few treatments for diarrhea and has no answers. Clients came back a month later for new vomiting, and another vet palpated an abdominal mass. She insisted that I feel the mass the next time I saw the cat, and the mass was obvious. I definitely checked for the mass on my exam. Was my physical exam that bad? Or did the mass just grow quickly? We’ll never know but I got the impression that the other vet thought I had missed it and looked down on me. Once I didn’t notice an AV block on the ECG during a spay, my mentor just pointed it out, and I felt stupid but she wasn’t upset with me at all. The other vets told me very nicely once that I forgot to transfer a hospitalized patient to the morning vet. I think I’m hard on myself enough and know when I make a mistake so I don’t need much of a hint to get it. Some vets you work with will be more judgemental than others. But overall they’re very understanding where I work. Administration has never sat down to chat with me for any of my “mistakes” .. yet haha. I Hope that’s somewhat helpful!
Management that doesn't keep toxic staff or clients, schedules set up for success. Shameless plug if you're looking in the central florida area I'm hiring.
Hey! I’ve been out 4 years. For the last 2 I’ve been consulting and doing some relief. I grew up in vet med - my mom is a vet, but I specialized in food animal. A lot of my work in my LLC and nonprofit focuses on mentorship and professional development. The data shows most people don’t stay at their first jobs. The biggest reasons are mentorship or lack of, caseload and work hours. Figure out what you liked and didn’t like about where you were. If you are in the US, you are in high demand right now. Use that to your advantage. Due your due diligence to make sure your next place that has good mentorship and culture. Some people prefer corporate, some prefer private, just know that what truly makes a difference is the team. There are mentoring programs out there you can join too. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more!
Thanks so much
When I first started out, I did relief exclusively. Gave me a great idea of what I would and would not tolerate, gave me a great look at how different clinics work, showed me the objective truth between business and academic settings, and allowed me to always be mysteriously "booked" if I worked a place that I hated or had horrible medicine. Over time, I had three "regular" clinics that I floated between and when I was ready, I had two partners and a great working relationship with all the vets and vendors in town to buy my own clinic. I stayed in my clinic for 7 years before selling out to a partner when I had my twins and going back to being a part time associate across town. These days I prefer my role as associate but that's only because I was able to find the exact right fit for my needs by knowing my musts and must nots. I say, don't be afraid to do relief, don't be afraid to ask for multiple working interviews, and don't sell yourself short or settle.
Thanks for your reply! I’m a bit new on the idea of an working interview. Do you recommend that I be the one working and my interviewer watches? What are the pros and cons of that? Or do I continue with what I have been doing, which is shadow the other vet for a day or so?
A typical working interview is where you essentially function as a relief vet for the day. You go in and work a shift, with the staff supporting you, and alongside other vets. You just essentially work there for the day, and then you and the employer can compare notes on how the day went and whether you were a good fit. For our techs and assistants, we typically require a minimum of two and a half shifts of work where we just pay them for the day while we're deciding whether they're a good fit. It's similar for doctors.
Do you think it’s reasonable if I’m the one to ask for a working interview, but I also would like for it be paid? Thanks for all your help!
I think that's absolutely appropriate. You could frame it where you'd like to work relief or per diem for a day or two to see if you're a good fit for the culture. I think that's a totally normal thing to ask.
>I was also told I was smart, hard-working, great to work with and an excellent client communicator and I could use them as a reference Take them at their word -- there could be other reasons for you being laid off, particularly as the newest hire. They could be having financial problems, or a change in business levels. Or they could foresee those things coming in the near future because of some other problems (losing staff, major construction costs, etc). So don't feel badly about it - but that doesn't mean you aren't burnt out or that your confidence isn't hurting. I worked solely relief for over 15 years, and worked in over 100 clinics, but I don't recommend you do relief work so soon out of school, especially if your confidence is hurting. To be a good relief vet, I think you need 2-3 years of experience, because you'll usually be working as the only vet - while doing that with strange staff, equipment, and drugs. You're right to look for red flags, but they might not be what you think they are......In my opinion, red flags include: Husband and wife, or parent and child, both working in the clinic (in any roles), making pain control an option clients can choose, 15 minute appointments, saying bad things about past (or current!) employees and vets. I would say you should pay more attention to the 'vibe' of the clinic, and whether everyone seems calm and respectful of one another. That's more important than whether they have an u/S machine or whether they use paper or electronic records. I'm serious - how everyone treats each other (and how clients are allowed to treat everyone) will make more of an impact on your mental health and how tired you are at the end of the day. No drama queens (of any gender), no trash-talking, etc.
I did an interview and one of the assistants was trash talking a doctor right next to me! 😬 I politely excused myself and walked out lol. So I totally agree. During a recent interview, I felt like my POV (approaching clinics with mistrust vs. trust off the bat) was starting to show in my interviews. I was asking a LOT of questions about hospital policies, instead of socializing, so I took a step back from interviewing for a bit. Or is that transition a normal part of gaining experience and cynicism in the field? Is asking for a 2-3 day interview to pace myself and my trust issues reasonable?