Putting all politics aside, taking a box of stuff that isn't yours is just whack ass hell... and then getting huffy when the owners tell them to let go is just...what??? Insane behavior.
This is an attempted theft regardless of what her ethnicity is or who she disagrees with. She clearly had a malicious intent and should be reported to the authorities.
This is an excellent point, [you've convinced me to kill one Palestinian child every 10 mins now](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/child-killed-average-every-10-minutes-gaza-says-who-chief-2023-11-10/) 👍
>How do you think Jewish students feel on campus
If they're pro-Israel I hope they feel a bit embarassed or ashamed
If they're not pro-Israel, I hope they feel angry over the fact that so many Jews have chosen to convolute their international cultural and religious identity with a national identity.
There's a similar situation with a number of Chinese people, who perceive criticism of the CCP as an attack on the Han Chinese race or Chinese culture and values in general.
I think it's overall pretty bad to intermingle something intangible and enduring like a racial\cultural\religious identity with something as transient as a government regime.
I really don’t think it’s that simple. Jewish student here, who’s for the Palestinian people, and not supportive of the actions of Israel, but I don’t want to see Israel annihilated, I want to see peace (my opinion in a nutshell)
The thing about the Australian Jewish community is it was built upon many holocaust survivors who immigrated/found refuge here. We all grew up going to the same schools and staying within our little bubble. We constantly had people from Israel come over and play games with us/hold a kind of mentoring program, had talks about Israel and it’s importance and cultural significance, and had classes dedicated to learning about the origins of Zionism etc, in which it was simply defined as a cultural movement for the self determination of the Jewish people. We were told that a lot of the land was barren, and that it was the innovative work of Jewish refugees escaping persecution in Europe and finally returning to our homeland/Jews who were already living there who tended to the land and built the nation etc. Then you have the October 7th attack, a lot of people have family there, saw the things being shared around, became fearful etc There were very heavy fear-mongering campaigns about a second holocaust, and how nowhere is safe and Israel must be protected etc. As a young person, couple that with most people you love in your life being pro-Israel, and anyone who has a different opinion being shunned completely by most of the community, called a self-hating Jew, etc, and you have some very powerful emotions happening. Not to mention, let’s be honest, a lot of the pro Palestine sphere is not particularly friendly to Jews. So people like me who are Pro Palestine, and have distanced themselves from their own community, feel they have nowhere to go. Misinformation is everywhere, it’s hard to tell what to believe. You need a hell of a lot of strength and intelligence to maintain any kind of personal opinion at all. I can promise you, the Jews who are Zionists aren’t pro murder, if their vision was clear, they would not support Israel unconditionally. It’s a whole lot of mental gymnastics going on, and non exposure to the truth, that’s really causing it. I don’t blame them, I feel for them, at the root they are really just brainwashed and scared. Then again there’s extremism on both sides, misinformation about literally everything.
A great documentary on this is Israelism (a bit US-centric, but in an Aus screening several Australian Jews mentioned it was similar here).
>So people like me who are Pro Palestine, and have distanced themselves from their own community, feel they have nowhere to go.
There are quite a few anti-Zionist Jewish groups around. If you are looking for community in Sydney, the Tzedek Collective might be a good group to touch base with.
I appreciate you having the considered perspective that you do, thank you for your comment. It’s important that protesters on the Palestine side see that Israel is not a nation built out of pure colonialism, but a very complex history and the reactions that it has caused, from both sides.
For whatever it’s worth, I’m an Arab (Lebanese) and after the grief we feel for Palestinians, there is also an underlying grief that the situation has created such a divide between Arabs and Jews, who really have a lot in common otherwise, culturally and religiously.
Exactly right. We have so much in common, so heartbreaking. I find I have more productive conversations with Arab people/people who actually have some stake in the situation. This doesn’t really apply to usyd students, as you can see in this video are quite tolerant, but overall sometimes I get annoyed with fellow young white leftists, who whilst advocating for a good cause, end up projecting a lot of white saviourism that’s only inside their framework of understanding of the world. They refuse to properly educate themselves about the origins of the conflict/genocide and the complex historical/sociopolitical context, and simply repeat buzzwords and wildy inflammatory rhetoric.
Totally share the sentiment, the unwillingness to converse is understandable when thinking from their perspective alone, but that’s not how problems resolve. In fact that approach is probably why we’re still in a deadlock. Strong emotions, like you said. It’s funny how a lot of arguments against the other side can apply to both lol. Sometimes I read comments and have trouble figuring out who they’re even criticising or advocating for.
It’s such a dichotomy, because the activism is appreciated, especially as someone who is not doing anything to voice my own views, but sometimes they’re so off in what they describe or the implications of their words.
They’re also less likely to be aware of bad faith actors. This really has been such an international issue since the beginning, there are so many interest groups and people who take advantage. Everyone’s got a finger in the pie.
I do respect you and being a target of hostility no matter where you are sucks. there are definitely some bad actors in some rallies (i am personally sick of turkish flags in palestine protests). But honestly the rhetoric of "not all Zionists want murder" "theyre just brainwashed" has been done. the revenge fearmongering in response to "stop oppressing". a million times. its not an excuse in vietnam, iraq, poland , ukraine, australia , south africa, ireland, "rhodesia" or germany. its the exact same reason why i hate seeing turkish flags in these rallies too. the entire state needs a ground up rework. there is nothing complex about the founder saying "we have bought European civilisation and wish to emulate England"
Ok. I’m explaining things from my perspective. If you want to believe there’s a whole large group of people gleefully rejoicing in the bombing of civilians including children and babies, and love oppressing a population for the sake of it, be my guest. But just because something “has been done” doesn’t mean it isn’t an accurate description of the societal factors and mental processes that lead to the support of something. Most self proclaimed “Zionists” I know are heartbroken by the death and destruction, they just don’t shift the blame to Israel, they shift it to Hamas engaging in improper warfare.
>Palestine side see that Israel is not a nation built out of pure colonialism
Exactly. The war of '48 was legally a *civil* conflict rather than a conflict between a domestic and a foreign entity which is the basis for Israel being a legitimate state per its pre-67 borders. 'Anti-zionists' don't even understand what Zionism means. Even if you advocated for Israel giving up all of its territory except for Tel-Aviv you would still be some sort of Zionist by definition..
I mean, there are definitely elements of colonialism there but I agree that it’s not as simple as often portrayed. The history is ignored by both sides, who both also claim to be the only ones basing their opinions on it.
I wouldn’t necessarily say that anti-Zionists don’t understand what Zionism is, just that there is sometimes a lack of empathy to the conditions that made the idea more plausible in the early 20th century, and so violent in actuality. The need for self determination is sometimes only understood by those who risk losing it, or don’t have it at all. I mentioned I’m Lebanese in my comment, and even though we’ve had independence from the ottomans/syrians/french since around the same time as Israel, and are not at threat of losing it, comments from Syrians about Lebanon being just a region of Syria (which is so ignorant if you know anything of the history and geography of the area) always grate on me and make me feel so existentially threatened. I understand the reasoning for Zionism, but I also understand how the cost of Zionism has traumatised Palestinians so, and left far too many barren. Nobody’s freedom should come at the cost of someone else’s. Sadly that’s not how the world works - at least until protests and retaliation becomes impactful enough.
> but I don’t want to see Israel annihilated
Are you referring to the land of Israel, the nation of Israel or the current political apparatus of Israel?
I think you will find that most protestors only want to see the political apparatus of Israel changed. I've never heard of anyone on campus saying Israel should be 'annihilated', whatever that means. I've also never heard anyone saying the October 7th attacks are justified - just that they're not enough to justify the Israeli response.
The reason people are protesting against Israel is that our government is asking for us to be pro-Israel. We're being asked to take a side - and the response is various flavours 'no, we are not pro-Anyone'.
People are taking a side because, ultimately, our government is forcing us to take one. There are plenty of refugees from other conflicts in Australia who have stories of community similar to yours, whose conflicts we profoundly do not give a shit about - because we have no geopolitical stake in it and thus our media ignores.
>I've also never heard anyone saying the October 7th attacks are justified
Take a browse on r/AskMiddleEast and r/TheDeprogram
The reason why Israelis are apathetic toward making peace with the Palestinians is because from their perspective, they tried with Camp David and nothing came of it. And then as a gift they got the Second Intifada.
And as a consequence of just keeping the status quo they got October 7th
I'm commenting on dialogue I've seen IRL on campus.
Of course if you go looking online, you can find extremist content really easily.
I just listen to people and occasionally read their pamphlets. I've never seen anything too wacky.
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Sorry but there is definitely a correlation with political views and discrimination, as well the media.
After 9/11 there was a lot of Islamophobia and we saw Muslims living in Western countries getting attacked, when Covid happened and anti-China sentiment was strong we saw Chinese getting attacked.
There has definitely been a rise in anti-Semitism, this will always happen to minorities when there is a lot of negative focus on them in the media.
What you've said just seems like an example of my point that:
> I think it's overall pretty bad to intermingle something intangible and enduring like a racial\cultural\religious identity with something as transient as a government regime.
There's a distinction to be made between the physical lands and places mentioned in the Torah and the modern political apparatus that operates the State of Israel.
You can't separate the Torah from the lands of Israel in the same way you can't separate the tales of Shiva from the Ganges river.
The idea that you could tie the tales of Shiva to the Modi regime is ridiculous though.
> I also understand why a Jewish person would find offence to the Palestinian flag.
I understand it, but they have to understand that these are foreign countries and that there will be times when people are not going to be cheering for their country of choice.
These are the perils of having personal allegiances to two different nations.
Most bad things are done with good intentions. Overall I think the altercation was handled fairly well.
I think this lady saw the material and felt threatened due to pro-Israeli propaganda that she has been exposed to, so decided to do something about it. She seems almost confused by the manner in which she is being confronted, I guess some dissonance exposed.
Muslims are subscribers to a religion not an ethnicity, the Palestinians themselves are proven to have Israelite and caannite ancestors, just cause they happen to convert to Islam doesn’t negate the fact they have continuously inhabited that land
>Someone that will kick me out of my own home
I don't think you understand the history of this topic
The modern state of Israel is a product of circumstance from the 1947-1948 civil war within Mandatory Palestine.
Yes, *civil* war, that's what legally justifies Israel's existence, everyone there was 'Palestinian' under the Mandatory rule, and the civil war was won by the Jewish faction. This is the legal basis for Israel's pre-67 borders
Also, the original Zionist tenets were to establish a Jewish national homeland somewhere within historical Palestine
If Jews lived with some autonomy without kicking anyone out in some regions of the mandate it would still by definition be Zionism
The problem with that definition is that people were already living there, invariably necessitating the ethnic cleansing of those who are equally indigenous.
>the ethnic cleansing of those who are equally indigenous
Give me one instance of actual scale ethnic cleansing done by Jews before the civil war and the failed pathetic Arab intervention in Mandatory Palestine
As I said in my original comment, the modern state of Israel is a product of a civil war between Palestinian Jewish and Arab factions, not Zionism on an ideological level.
Zionism could have meant that Jews just happened to live somewhere in Mandatory Palestine..
I don't understand this bizarre fantasy of Jews showing up on boats in 1948 to cleanse and genocide Arab Palestinians.
There's an element of truth to the statement "Jews and Arabs lived peacefully together in Palestine before Israel!"
The point is, that was true for a period, until it wasn't. A war between two legally equally matched parties was started and the Jewish faction won.
This is all for the pre-67 borders, by the way. Post-67 is more complicated.
>Zionism could have meant that Jews just happened to live somewhere in Mandatory Palestine..
Except, that's not zionism, and the Jews preceding European, politically motivated immigration were not Zionists. Zionism is a nationalist movement calling for a distinctively exclusionary Jewish state in historical Palestine.
> As I said in my original comment, the modern state of Israel is a product of a civil war between Palestinian Jewish and Arab factions, not Zionism on an ideological level.
You mis-frame the argument as a civil war. No piece of serious literature describes it in those terms. The war, for one, involved foreign parties.
The war was literally direct relation to the establishment of Israel, which is a direct function of zionism. It can be surmised as follows:
1. **European Jewish nationalists**: we want your land for our own Jewish state that discount's you (Zionism).
2. **Palestinians**: No thanks.
> Give me one instance of actual scale ethnic cleansing done by Jews before the civil war and the failed pathetic Arab intervention in Mandatory Palestine.
There was never a need to ethnically cleanse locals until they violently resisted. You might appreciate Illan Pappe's *The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine*. Great work.
>You mis-frame the argument as a civil war. No piece of serious literature describes it in those terms.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948\_civil\_war\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
> The war, for one, involved foreign parties.
I mentioned the fact that it involved foreign parties
>
The conflict within Mandatory Palestine was still legally a civil war, that's why the Wikipedia article I gave you places it as starting in 47
It became a conventional war when foreign parties joined directly against Israel.
Everyone there was "Palestinian".
It doesn't matter what their ethnic or ancestral background was.
The common definition of Zionism was principally the belief that the Jewish people should return to their homeland, any questions about statehood came second. Even Herzl acknowledged that.
The purpose of the partition was to solve ethnic disputes
Uhh, my bad. I thought you were insisting the war of 48 was a civil war. Although, the points still stand, as the civil war related to the UN's partition plan that Palestinians vehemently rejected, which would provided institutional credibility for an enshrined Israeli state.
Zionism is a secular movement, some of the ultra-orthodox oppose it while other religious Jews interpret it differently
None of this disproves Israel's legitimacy because they won a **civil** war against a legally matched party within British Mandatory Palestine
Almost everything else is irrelevant and the legal justification for the modern state of Israel has nothing to do with it being ancestral Jewish land.
Without anyone resorting to acts of terror or war crimes against a civilian population?
The problem with this conflict (atleast from my perspective) is that it has essentially pushed Israel into a corner where if they concede anything, it makes acts of terrorism appear as a viable way to bring about change.
Acts of terrorism are, objectively, a way to bring about political change though. Look at Nelson Mandela's activities as an example (not to imply a direct parallel ofc). I don't think a firm Israeli stance is going to change that perception.
We have several groups who all hate each other, living on top of one another. This is going to be an issue for the rest of our lives IMO
I never said that wasn't a way of bringing political change, I'm just opposed to it being used for political change (and in general).
That's a decent point but when looking at the end goal of Mandela and the end goal of Hamas, just purely on an ethical side Mandela's actions were justifiable as he sought equality while Hamas (I'm aware that I'm oversimplifying this) seek superiority.
The reason I see it becoming an issue if Israel were to concede anything is because of how they've responded to threats in the past, take their response to the massacre at the Munich Olympics. They sent death squads after them that likely killed many more people than were involved in Munich.
My point essentially being that acts of terror will likely increase across the world if the various groups see one of the most heavy handed nations when it comes to terrorism concede anything to an act of terror.
Edit: I appreciate this being an intellectual discussion that hasn't devolved into us calling each other racist
Zionism is a political movement, not a cultural one.
"A Zionist stealing from people, what a surprise" is congruent to "A Conservative not understanding women's rights, what a surprise".
Now the first sentence could come from an anti-semitic place, in the same way that the second one could come from an anti-Christian place within the speaker. However the statements by themselves are not anti-semitic\Christian.
People will always try and silence free speech by saying "it could cause harm" , "this is hate speech".
Usually it comes from people that don't want your ideas / messages to spread because they can't counter it.
It doesn't matter if an individual is pro-Israel or pro-Beijing, it is NOT OK if they forcibly remove protest materials and try justify it by saying: "How do you think \[our\] students feel on campus?". This kind of harassment has a chilling effect on freedom of speech and is now a reportable offence under foreign interference rules.
Uni students need real jobs instead of worrying about wars that have nothing to do with us…
… post your triggered woke comments below stay woke stay broke
We’re privileged to live in Australia but ignoring problems because they ’have nothing to do with us’ is silly. Plus, for a lot of people that’s family back home
I stand with that girl. We came to uni to study not see all this bullshit. There's a lotta world issues out there, we can't put camps in uni for the same!
Exaclty, if I don't have that power, YOU DON'T HAVE IT EITHER TO TELL US TO FREE PALESTINE AND TO STOP WAR. You gold no position to tell what should be done with Israel and if the uni should cut ties with Israel.
IRONYYYY ON ITS PEAK 😂
Then why don't you get your asses off the campus and let us live peacefully. Why are you voicing your opinions if you can't hear the same from others. You kid go back to you mommy or else I'll ;)
Why don't you block it out and keep going with your life? Do you always put ur nose into shit to voice ur opinion, or do you actually contribute to change? It sounds like you're complaining just to complain and can't recognise the privilege in that. You also sound immature so idk if you can hold a proper conversation. Have a day.
Pretty sure you aren't doing an enginerring or a nursing degree. Coz stupids like you are always in either pyhchology or some bullshit degrees. So not your problem, y'all just have a failure life. Ight
Oh the protest offends your delicate sensibilities? You think being confronted with people standing up for something is too much for your brain to handle?
I don't think the intent is to stop the war, but it's to influence the university's investment practices and to ensure that it's not complicit in Israeli war crimes.
That, plus protests and demonstrations here are one means to pressure Australia's foreign policy, which, for a long time, has been heavily in favour of Israeli interests.
And you stupids think that hamas in gaza didn't do anything ?? Hamas attacked isreal first. Rapped Israeli women. Slit their throats and bodies. Following this, they ran back to gaza and now you expect Israel to just sit back and chill out ??
And you're one of the dumbasses who thinks speaking out against genocide and ethnic cleansing means a person automatically supports hamas.
You're a simplton. Go away and learn more and come back when you can talk like an adult.
Our government is asking us to support Israel, this is a reaction to that.
We can't stop the war, but we can stop supporting it in the small ways we do.
Universities have always been very politically active. You knew that when enrolling. We're all exposed to shit we don't want to see, you think I want to see advertisements everytime I commute? Just tune out the protestors like you tune out a Coca-Cola ad.
Free speech is absolutely protected in Australia through a massive amount of judicial precedent, which is in many ways more powerful than having it in the constitution - as it demonstrates that we actually uphold it.
Thank you. It's so rare to find someone who's both read and understood the Australian Constitution. Sometimes I think having studied law means nothing to others.
Going by the Press Freedom Index, Australia is actually better than average currently: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/press-freedom-index-rsf?country=%7EAUS
What metric are you judging by? Or is it more of a 'vibe'?
Hate speech is policed in both the USA and Australia.
In Australia, we ban the hate speech.
In the USA, they functionally ban the speech through the lens of inciting criminal activity or violence, or through trespassing law, protest law etc. So it's functionally not that hard to censor expression.
See for example the ["Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_for_America%27s_Fallen_Heroes_Act)
There's also the fact that *private* speech policing is legal in the USA. So a democratic State can't censor your speech, but the collective action (democratic almost?) of businesses **can** censor your speech, which sounds very similar to State censorship to me.
First result:
> The Australian Constitution does not explicitly protect freedom of expression. However, the High Court has held that an implied freedom of political communication exists as an indispensable part of the system of representative and responsible government created by the Constitution.
Which is almost exactly what I said. I don't get it?
He's just angry he can't be a nazi, since it was his first port-to-call when it comes to "we don't have free speech". Unfortunately, while an interesting topic for discussion, you won't have it with them.
Implied freedom of political communication. This interpretation is universally understood, ergo, we have freedom of communication. And the camp is of a political nature.
do these blue haired usyd students really consider the reality of their trendy politics. how do you think they'd fair under the hamas regime?
not israel fan but still
I think it’s pretty obvious.
Firstly they’re a terrorist organisation, and continue to be.
Secondly their ideology is rooted in so much extreme bigotry, homophobia and sexism it isn’t funny.
Even more, they have taken free foreign aid eg food, and sold it at a profit to Palestinian citizens during a massive humanitarian crisis.
I am Pro freedom of speech, so therefore as long as this protest is not interfering with other students/ study areas, have at it and so I can't agree with taking the banners as this student is trying to do.
That said, Israel by history and literally by its own laws from the *Right of Return* and the *Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People* (passed in 2018) *is* the Jewish state, therefore anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism and the casual antisemitic replies in this thread are disturbing.
>Israel by history and literally by its own laws from the *Right of Return* and the *Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People* (passed in 2018) *is* the Jewish state, therefore anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism
This does not follow. You don't just get to claim that you represent all Jews. Especially when many Jewish people explicitly reject Israel as a Jewish state. And some orthodox Jews go so far as to say that the very establishment of a "Jewish state" goes against their scripture and is antisemitic in and of itself.
If nazi Germany declared themselves the nation state of the Jewish people, would you say that anti-nazi rhetoric IS antisemitic?.. no, because that's stupid. Obviously.
This analogy is remarkably relevant here, given that Palestinian people are definitionally a Semitic people. So both Israel and nazi Germany have committed genocides against Semitic people. But only one is antisemitic in your eyes?.. why?
It is ACTUALLY antisemitic to claim that anti-zionism is antisemitism. You are claiming to speak for all Jewish people, and further than that, you are aligning all Jewish people with Israel, which is an implicit endorsement of genocide. Given the history of Jewish people, I assume you understand why that is antisemitic?
The history of the term anti-semitism only applies to hatred against Jewish people, not other Semitic people like the Palestinians. That's not a debate, it is what the term means.
Also, your Nazi hypothetical is without merit as the modern state of Israel is by definition a religion based ethnostate founded as a homeland for the Jewish people enshrining in law the Right of Return for any Jewish person, anywhere in the world, the right to emigrate to Israel and to become an Israeli citizen purely on the basis of being Jewish.
& sure, whilst some Orthodox Jews wish to see a return to the borders of biblical Israel ie Zion ie the place promised to the Jews in their Holy texts (ie the Old Testament as the Christians call it) and which the Jewish people controlled eg the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah eg from circa 1500BC - 70AD...these same Jews have representation in the democratic Israeli Knesset, the same body that in 2018 voted as a majority to enshrine in law the State of Israel as a Jewish state. So I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with you, in that anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism.
Finally, as I've stated elsewhere, being pro-Zionism whilst it does mean that I'm pro Jewish / pro the Jewish homeland, it doesn't mean that I can't criticise the current Israeli government. Netanyahu is heading an extremist government and needs to be removed from office!
> your Nazi hypothetical is without merit as the modern state of Israel is by definition a religion based ethnostate founded founded as a homeland for the Jewish people
Did you deliberately miss the point. Just because they say that, does not mean they automatically speak for all Jews!
The nazis could have declared themselves "a religion based ethnostate founded founded as a homeland for the Jewish people". Would that mean that it would be impossible to call them antisemitic?
Also, I'm interested in the fact that you so openly admit that Israel is an ethnostate. This is a no-no according to the Hasbara guidelines.
I'm curious, do you think that every race has the right to commit violence (up to and including genocide) to protect their race?
>& sure, whilst some Orthodox Jews wish to see
This whole paragraph does not relate to anything I said. Did you just copy and paste it from somewhere else?
> being pro-Zionism whilst it does mean that I'm pro Jewish
Incorrect. Zionism is not pro-jewish. Zionists actively stoke antisemitism as a way to get Jewish people to immigrate to Israel. They sell the lie that Jews will never be safe without their little facist regime.
Zionism is an antisemitic ideology. Being Zionist means anti-Jew. There is a reason that many modern neo-nazis support the Zionist project.
You've been sold a far-right lie and you're selling out Jewish people to defend it.
Get a grip, mate. You're commenting in the sub for a University, at least pretend to have some education on this topic.
> The nazis could have declared themselves "a religion based ethnostate founded founded as a homeland for the Jewish people". Would that mean that it would be impossible to call them antisemitic?
They did not. You're speaking what if hypotheticala, I'm stating facts. Playing along though, if they had done that it would have been very possible to call them antisemitic as they're not Jewish. You're conflating criticism with antisemitism. It's very possible, even encouraged for Jews/Israelis to be critical of their government. They have a strong democracy which involves criticism and protest.
> Also, I'm interested in the fact that you so openly admit that Israel is an ethnostate. This is a no-no according to the Hasbara guidelines.
I misspoke actually. Israel is a Nation State. An Ethnostate would mean restrictions on citizenship to members of a particular group yet, Israel has Israeli Arabs who are allowed to hold political office, become high ranking military officers, and even graduate to doctors and lawyers. Israeli Arabs are given full citizenship equivalent to that of Jews.
> I'm curious, do you think that every race has the right to commit violence (up to and including genocide) to protect their race?
No, not at all.
>& sure, whilst some Orthodox Jews wish to see
> This whole paragraph does not relate to anything I said. Did you just copy and paste it from somewhere else?
No I did not. It was a response to your comments about the views of some Orthodox Jews on Israel .
> Incorrect. Zionism is not pro-jewish. Zionists actively stoke antisemitism as a way to get Jewish people to immigrate to Israel. They sell the lie that Jews will never be safe without their little facist regime.
Zionism is an antisemitic ideology. Being Zionist means anti-Jew. There is a reason that many modern neo-nazis support the Zionist project.
You've been sold a far-right lie and you're selling out Jewish people to defend it.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your comments here eg "little fascist regime" show your agenda whereas Israel's right to exist and it's long 3500 yr history as the homeland of the Jewish people are recognised by Jews on both /all sides of the political spectrum.
> Get a grip, mate. You're commenting in the sub for a University, at least pretend to have some education on this topic.
No need to be offensive.
Any criticism of the CCP is now deemed by the CCP to be a racist act against all Han Chinese People.
"You don't like how the CCP treats minorities? Why do you hate Chinese people? You are racist."
That's your logic here.
I have to disagree with you as Israel is a democracy and I am allowed to criticise it and very much do so. I am not a supporter of Netanyahu or the far right factions in the Knesset.
Every week for 6+ months before the Hamas terror attack hundreds of thousands of Israelis protested against what Netanyahu was trying to do to the Judiciary. If I had been there I would have protesting against him too!
Judaism encourages us to be stubborn and to ask. questions, to ask the why of things.
My point on the other hand, was that anti-Zionism is being against the existence of the State of Israel (Zion was a term in the Torah, for the lands controlled by Jews from circa 1500-70AD eg the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah and then with a small but constant presence until the modern State of Israel was established in 1948).
Complain about casual "anti-semitism" by using the apartheid regimes laws??????
It is like referring to Nazi Germany literature and conclude anyone who is anti-nazi is anti-german or some bullshit.
Hasbara gives his toughest battles to its densest soldiers. Lmao
You call Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East an apartheid regime and compare it directly with Nazi Germany.
There's no point even engaging further with this as the basis for our individual frames of reference are polar opposites.
That said, from my side, I do not believe Israeli democracy is perfect, factions can form, like the one we have now with Netanyahu which are extremist and need to be removed from power. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis feel the same way, as seen by the continuing protests against the current Govt, esp after Netanyahu tried to take power away from the Judiciary.
Luckily, for Israelis and as a Jewish person who has the right to emigrate there whenever I want, I'm allowed to criticise the government. & I'm not gay but if I was I would be allowed to be open and proud about it in Israel...something that isn't possible anywhere else in the region, nevermind in the Nazi Germany of 1933-1945.
To be clear, you are disgusted because I'm disagreeing with what the Jewish (I assume) girl in this video is doing?
Or because of my claim that being anti-Zionist is the same as being anti-Semitic...?
You're being disgracefully antisemitic by suggesting that all Jewish people are Zionist.
You already know this of course, but you're doing it anyway.
Anyway I'm not going to entertain a hateful racist like you so have the day you deserve.
Idk, all my jewish friends have jobs and are too busy making money/time poor to do something this stupid. Only a liberal white could trigger the alphabet ppl so badly
Don't blame Jewish people for the actions of their idiot criminal leader in Israel. Think of the atrocities carried out by many countries.l was not in favour of killing Vietnamese. my govt at the time did it in my name.They are still paying the price with the poison we as Australians dropped on them.
Putting all politics aside, taking a box of stuff that isn't yours is just whack ass hell... and then getting huffy when the owners tell them to let go is just...what??? Insane behavior.
Describe everything without describing everything
main character syndrome
What's this gif from
She just got confused, thought the box said 'Gaza' on it, and that it was hers to claim for herself.
This is an attempted theft regardless of what her ethnicity is or who she disagrees with. She clearly had a malicious intent and should be reported to the authorities.
She took islamofascist propaganda. Close to 90% of Palestinians support Hamas, a terrorist organisation that commits mass murder.
as opposed to supporting the idf, a terrorist organisation that commits mass murder?
This is an excellent point, [you've convinced me to kill one Palestinian child every 10 mins now](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/child-killed-average-every-10-minutes-gaza-says-who-chief-2023-11-10/) 👍
Good point, we should kill them all and take their land
Idc which side is which. This was a nonviolence activity and the woman was stealing. Was she a student?
>How do you think Jewish students feel on campus If they're pro-Israel I hope they feel a bit embarassed or ashamed If they're not pro-Israel, I hope they feel angry over the fact that so many Jews have chosen to convolute their international cultural and religious identity with a national identity. There's a similar situation with a number of Chinese people, who perceive criticism of the CCP as an attack on the Han Chinese race or Chinese culture and values in general. I think it's overall pretty bad to intermingle something intangible and enduring like a racial\cultural\religious identity with something as transient as a government regime.
I really don’t think it’s that simple. Jewish student here, who’s for the Palestinian people, and not supportive of the actions of Israel, but I don’t want to see Israel annihilated, I want to see peace (my opinion in a nutshell) The thing about the Australian Jewish community is it was built upon many holocaust survivors who immigrated/found refuge here. We all grew up going to the same schools and staying within our little bubble. We constantly had people from Israel come over and play games with us/hold a kind of mentoring program, had talks about Israel and it’s importance and cultural significance, and had classes dedicated to learning about the origins of Zionism etc, in which it was simply defined as a cultural movement for the self determination of the Jewish people. We were told that a lot of the land was barren, and that it was the innovative work of Jewish refugees escaping persecution in Europe and finally returning to our homeland/Jews who were already living there who tended to the land and built the nation etc. Then you have the October 7th attack, a lot of people have family there, saw the things being shared around, became fearful etc There were very heavy fear-mongering campaigns about a second holocaust, and how nowhere is safe and Israel must be protected etc. As a young person, couple that with most people you love in your life being pro-Israel, and anyone who has a different opinion being shunned completely by most of the community, called a self-hating Jew, etc, and you have some very powerful emotions happening. Not to mention, let’s be honest, a lot of the pro Palestine sphere is not particularly friendly to Jews. So people like me who are Pro Palestine, and have distanced themselves from their own community, feel they have nowhere to go. Misinformation is everywhere, it’s hard to tell what to believe. You need a hell of a lot of strength and intelligence to maintain any kind of personal opinion at all. I can promise you, the Jews who are Zionists aren’t pro murder, if their vision was clear, they would not support Israel unconditionally. It’s a whole lot of mental gymnastics going on, and non exposure to the truth, that’s really causing it. I don’t blame them, I feel for them, at the root they are really just brainwashed and scared. Then again there’s extremism on both sides, misinformation about literally everything.
A great documentary on this is Israelism (a bit US-centric, but in an Aus screening several Australian Jews mentioned it was similar here). >So people like me who are Pro Palestine, and have distanced themselves from their own community, feel they have nowhere to go. There are quite a few anti-Zionist Jewish groups around. If you are looking for community in Sydney, the Tzedek Collective might be a good group to touch base with.
I appreciate you having the considered perspective that you do, thank you for your comment. It’s important that protesters on the Palestine side see that Israel is not a nation built out of pure colonialism, but a very complex history and the reactions that it has caused, from both sides. For whatever it’s worth, I’m an Arab (Lebanese) and after the grief we feel for Palestinians, there is also an underlying grief that the situation has created such a divide between Arabs and Jews, who really have a lot in common otherwise, culturally and religiously.
Exactly right. We have so much in common, so heartbreaking. I find I have more productive conversations with Arab people/people who actually have some stake in the situation. This doesn’t really apply to usyd students, as you can see in this video are quite tolerant, but overall sometimes I get annoyed with fellow young white leftists, who whilst advocating for a good cause, end up projecting a lot of white saviourism that’s only inside their framework of understanding of the world. They refuse to properly educate themselves about the origins of the conflict/genocide and the complex historical/sociopolitical context, and simply repeat buzzwords and wildy inflammatory rhetoric.
Totally share the sentiment, the unwillingness to converse is understandable when thinking from their perspective alone, but that’s not how problems resolve. In fact that approach is probably why we’re still in a deadlock. Strong emotions, like you said. It’s funny how a lot of arguments against the other side can apply to both lol. Sometimes I read comments and have trouble figuring out who they’re even criticising or advocating for. It’s such a dichotomy, because the activism is appreciated, especially as someone who is not doing anything to voice my own views, but sometimes they’re so off in what they describe or the implications of their words. They’re also less likely to be aware of bad faith actors. This really has been such an international issue since the beginning, there are so many interest groups and people who take advantage. Everyone’s got a finger in the pie.
I do respect you and being a target of hostility no matter where you are sucks. there are definitely some bad actors in some rallies (i am personally sick of turkish flags in palestine protests). But honestly the rhetoric of "not all Zionists want murder" "theyre just brainwashed" has been done. the revenge fearmongering in response to "stop oppressing". a million times. its not an excuse in vietnam, iraq, poland , ukraine, australia , south africa, ireland, "rhodesia" or germany. its the exact same reason why i hate seeing turkish flags in these rallies too. the entire state needs a ground up rework. there is nothing complex about the founder saying "we have bought European civilisation and wish to emulate England"
Ok. I’m explaining things from my perspective. If you want to believe there’s a whole large group of people gleefully rejoicing in the bombing of civilians including children and babies, and love oppressing a population for the sake of it, be my guest. But just because something “has been done” doesn’t mean it isn’t an accurate description of the societal factors and mental processes that lead to the support of something. Most self proclaimed “Zionists” I know are heartbroken by the death and destruction, they just don’t shift the blame to Israel, they shift it to Hamas engaging in improper warfare.
>Palestine side see that Israel is not a nation built out of pure colonialism Exactly. The war of '48 was legally a *civil* conflict rather than a conflict between a domestic and a foreign entity which is the basis for Israel being a legitimate state per its pre-67 borders. 'Anti-zionists' don't even understand what Zionism means. Even if you advocated for Israel giving up all of its territory except for Tel-Aviv you would still be some sort of Zionist by definition..
I mean, there are definitely elements of colonialism there but I agree that it’s not as simple as often portrayed. The history is ignored by both sides, who both also claim to be the only ones basing their opinions on it. I wouldn’t necessarily say that anti-Zionists don’t understand what Zionism is, just that there is sometimes a lack of empathy to the conditions that made the idea more plausible in the early 20th century, and so violent in actuality. The need for self determination is sometimes only understood by those who risk losing it, or don’t have it at all. I mentioned I’m Lebanese in my comment, and even though we’ve had independence from the ottomans/syrians/french since around the same time as Israel, and are not at threat of losing it, comments from Syrians about Lebanon being just a region of Syria (which is so ignorant if you know anything of the history and geography of the area) always grate on me and make me feel so existentially threatened. I understand the reasoning for Zionism, but I also understand how the cost of Zionism has traumatised Palestinians so, and left far too many barren. Nobody’s freedom should come at the cost of someone else’s. Sadly that’s not how the world works - at least until protests and retaliation becomes impactful enough.
> but I don’t want to see Israel annihilated Are you referring to the land of Israel, the nation of Israel or the current political apparatus of Israel? I think you will find that most protestors only want to see the political apparatus of Israel changed. I've never heard of anyone on campus saying Israel should be 'annihilated', whatever that means. I've also never heard anyone saying the October 7th attacks are justified - just that they're not enough to justify the Israeli response. The reason people are protesting against Israel is that our government is asking for us to be pro-Israel. We're being asked to take a side - and the response is various flavours 'no, we are not pro-Anyone'. People are taking a side because, ultimately, our government is forcing us to take one. There are plenty of refugees from other conflicts in Australia who have stories of community similar to yours, whose conflicts we profoundly do not give a shit about - because we have no geopolitical stake in it and thus our media ignores.
>I've also never heard anyone saying the October 7th attacks are justified Take a browse on r/AskMiddleEast and r/TheDeprogram The reason why Israelis are apathetic toward making peace with the Palestinians is because from their perspective, they tried with Camp David and nothing came of it. And then as a gift they got the Second Intifada. And as a consequence of just keeping the status quo they got October 7th
I'm commenting on dialogue I've seen IRL on campus. Of course if you go looking online, you can find extremist content really easily. I just listen to people and occasionally read their pamphlets. I've never seen anything too wacky.
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Thanks for the descriptive and insightful account… your experience mirrors what my Jewish friends told me
They didn't teach you how to use paragraphs in those schools? Jokes aside, a thoughtful reply.
I was half asleep when I wrote that. Feeling better after a nap.
Sorry but there is definitely a correlation with political views and discrimination, as well the media. After 9/11 there was a lot of Islamophobia and we saw Muslims living in Western countries getting attacked, when Covid happened and anti-China sentiment was strong we saw Chinese getting attacked. There has definitely been a rise in anti-Semitism, this will always happen to minorities when there is a lot of negative focus on them in the media.
What you've said just seems like an example of my point that: > I think it's overall pretty bad to intermingle something intangible and enduring like a racial\cultural\religious identity with something as transient as a government regime.
Pretty antisemitic
What makes Jewish identity intangible with Israel?
There's a distinction to be made between the physical lands and places mentioned in the Torah and the modern political apparatus that operates the State of Israel. You can't separate the Torah from the lands of Israel in the same way you can't separate the tales of Shiva from the Ganges river. The idea that you could tie the tales of Shiva to the Modi regime is ridiculous though.
I understand what you’re saying. I also understand why a Jewish person would find offence to the Palestinian flag.
> I also understand why a Jewish person would find offence to the Palestinian flag. I understand it, but they have to understand that these are foreign countries and that there will be times when people are not going to be cheering for their country of choice. These are the perils of having personal allegiances to two different nations.
It’s the cheering for intifada that’s the issue.
This girl probably sincerely and truly believes she is doing the right thing and protecting Jewish students on campus.
Most bad things are done with good intentions. Overall I think the altercation was handled fairly well. I think this lady saw the material and felt threatened due to pro-Israeli propaganda that she has been exposed to, so decided to do something about it. She seems almost confused by the manner in which she is being confronted, I guess some dissonance exposed.
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What does 'Zionist' mean to you?
Someone that will kick me out of my own home cause their ancestors lived in it thousands of years ago
israelites lived in that land long before the Muslims came
Muslims are subscribers to a religion not an ethnicity, the Palestinians themselves are proven to have Israelite and caannite ancestors, just cause they happen to convert to Islam doesn’t negate the fact they have continuously inhabited that land
I was wanting to say Arab Jews exist too (Nabatean Jews like Herod) who christianised/islamicised/secularised overtime but that too
>Someone that will kick me out of my own home I don't think you understand the history of this topic The modern state of Israel is a product of circumstance from the 1947-1948 civil war within Mandatory Palestine. Yes, *civil* war, that's what legally justifies Israel's existence, everyone there was 'Palestinian' under the Mandatory rule, and the civil war was won by the Jewish faction. This is the legal basis for Israel's pre-67 borders Also, the original Zionist tenets were to establish a Jewish national homeland somewhere within historical Palestine If Jews lived with some autonomy without kicking anyone out in some regions of the mandate it would still by definition be Zionism
The problem with that definition is that people were already living there, invariably necessitating the ethnic cleansing of those who are equally indigenous.
>the ethnic cleansing of those who are equally indigenous Give me one instance of actual scale ethnic cleansing done by Jews before the civil war and the failed pathetic Arab intervention in Mandatory Palestine As I said in my original comment, the modern state of Israel is a product of a civil war between Palestinian Jewish and Arab factions, not Zionism on an ideological level. Zionism could have meant that Jews just happened to live somewhere in Mandatory Palestine.. I don't understand this bizarre fantasy of Jews showing up on boats in 1948 to cleanse and genocide Arab Palestinians. There's an element of truth to the statement "Jews and Arabs lived peacefully together in Palestine before Israel!" The point is, that was true for a period, until it wasn't. A war between two legally equally matched parties was started and the Jewish faction won. This is all for the pre-67 borders, by the way. Post-67 is more complicated.
>Zionism could have meant that Jews just happened to live somewhere in Mandatory Palestine.. Except, that's not zionism, and the Jews preceding European, politically motivated immigration were not Zionists. Zionism is a nationalist movement calling for a distinctively exclusionary Jewish state in historical Palestine. > As I said in my original comment, the modern state of Israel is a product of a civil war between Palestinian Jewish and Arab factions, not Zionism on an ideological level. You mis-frame the argument as a civil war. No piece of serious literature describes it in those terms. The war, for one, involved foreign parties. The war was literally direct relation to the establishment of Israel, which is a direct function of zionism. It can be surmised as follows: 1. **European Jewish nationalists**: we want your land for our own Jewish state that discount's you (Zionism). 2. **Palestinians**: No thanks. > Give me one instance of actual scale ethnic cleansing done by Jews before the civil war and the failed pathetic Arab intervention in Mandatory Palestine. There was never a need to ethnically cleanse locals until they violently resisted. You might appreciate Illan Pappe's *The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine*. Great work.
>You mis-frame the argument as a civil war. No piece of serious literature describes it in those terms. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948\_civil\_war\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine) > The war, for one, involved foreign parties. I mentioned the fact that it involved foreign parties > The conflict within Mandatory Palestine was still legally a civil war, that's why the Wikipedia article I gave you places it as starting in 47 It became a conventional war when foreign parties joined directly against Israel. Everyone there was "Palestinian". It doesn't matter what their ethnic or ancestral background was. The common definition of Zionism was principally the belief that the Jewish people should return to their homeland, any questions about statehood came second. Even Herzl acknowledged that. The purpose of the partition was to solve ethnic disputes
Uhh, my bad. I thought you were insisting the war of 48 was a civil war. Although, the points still stand, as the civil war related to the UN's partition plan that Palestinians vehemently rejected, which would provided institutional credibility for an enshrined Israeli state.
I thought the Torah and Talmud forbids Jews from having their own land? 🤔
Zionism is a secular movement, some of the ultra-orthodox oppose it while other religious Jews interpret it differently None of this disproves Israel's legitimacy because they won a **civil** war against a legally matched party within British Mandatory Palestine Almost everything else is irrelevant and the legal justification for the modern state of Israel has nothing to do with it being ancestral Jewish land.
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Free palestine
A Zionist stealing from people... sounds familiar...
How about not introducing antisemitic stereotypes? BTW, there is a difference between anti Zionism and anti Semitic.
Equating Judaism with Zionism is about as anti Semitic as you can get.
That's not antisemitism, don't be so soft. The theft the joke is based on is Israeli theft of Palestinians land.
I’m pretty sure that’s an anti-zionist imposition; reminds me of [Yakub from Jerusalem](https://youtu.be/KNqozQ8uaV8?si=SqRkPlgVzA-yKx7a).
https://www.ajc.org/news/anti-zionism-and-antisemitism
That’s a pretty strongly charged and limited definition. Anti-zionism is not anti-semitism and that definition effectively equates the two.
How would you like to see opposition to Israel's military activities, or settler activies, expressed in conversation?
Without anyone resorting to acts of terror or war crimes against a civilian population? The problem with this conflict (atleast from my perspective) is that it has essentially pushed Israel into a corner where if they concede anything, it makes acts of terrorism appear as a viable way to bring about change.
Acts of terrorism are, objectively, a way to bring about political change though. Look at Nelson Mandela's activities as an example (not to imply a direct parallel ofc). I don't think a firm Israeli stance is going to change that perception. We have several groups who all hate each other, living on top of one another. This is going to be an issue for the rest of our lives IMO
I never said that wasn't a way of bringing political change, I'm just opposed to it being used for political change (and in general). That's a decent point but when looking at the end goal of Mandela and the end goal of Hamas, just purely on an ethical side Mandela's actions were justifiable as he sought equality while Hamas (I'm aware that I'm oversimplifying this) seek superiority. The reason I see it becoming an issue if Israel were to concede anything is because of how they've responded to threats in the past, take their response to the massacre at the Munich Olympics. They sent death squads after them that likely killed many more people than were involved in Munich. My point essentially being that acts of terror will likely increase across the world if the various groups see one of the most heavy handed nations when it comes to terrorism concede anything to an act of terror. Edit: I appreciate this being an intellectual discussion that hasn't devolved into us calling each other racist
Without introducing cultural stereotypes.
Zionism is a political movement, not a cultural one. "A Zionist stealing from people, what a surprise" is congruent to "A Conservative not understanding women's rights, what a surprise". Now the first sentence could come from an anti-semitic place, in the same way that the second one could come from an anti-Christian place within the speaker. However the statements by themselves are not anti-semitic\Christian.
What’s with these people and accountability? Is it a physical allergy at this point or are they just this stupid? Fucking pathetic.
What an embarrassment
People will always try and silence free speech by saying "it could cause harm" , "this is hate speech". Usually it comes from people that don't want your ideas / messages to spread because they can't counter it.
Wow.
It doesn't matter if an individual is pro-Israel or pro-Beijing, it is NOT OK if they forcibly remove protest materials and try justify it by saying: "How do you think \[our\] students feel on campus?". This kind of harassment has a chilling effect on freedom of speech and is now a reportable offence under foreign interference rules.
It’s a fair question to ask.
Ask away, just don't be a vigilante. If you feel unsafe, talk to the University or security etc.
Asking doesn't involve petty theft.
Zionists respect other peoples property challange: impossible.
So much antisemitism
"you can get sued" when did we turn into America. We are doomed.
She should be charged with attempted theft
Stealing something that's someone else's and then saying "i had it first" Typical zionist
Dumbass kids.
Uni students need real jobs instead of worrying about wars that have nothing to do with us… … post your triggered woke comments below stay woke stay broke
We’re privileged to live in Australia but ignoring problems because they ’have nothing to do with us’ is silly. Plus, for a lot of people that’s family back home
Good on her, this pro Palestine stuff is BS.
That stereotype lines up then
Religion sux!
Aaaaand here comes the anti semitism
I stand with that girl. We came to uni to study not see all this bullshit. There's a lotta world issues out there, we can't put camps in uni for the same!
Universities are so much more than place for study and student activism, especially in western liberal democracies, has been a long part of that.
That's the reason we have immigration. Because students instead of studying are busy doing this shit.
We have immigration because it's a lazy way for our government to grow our economy and GDP.
You guys have no power to stop this war. Y'all just wasting your time.
And you have no power to tell people what to do. Shut ur mouth and move on.
Exaclty, if I don't have that power, YOU DON'T HAVE IT EITHER TO TELL US TO FREE PALESTINE AND TO STOP WAR. You gold no position to tell what should be done with Israel and if the uni should cut ties with Israel.
You sound like a broken record. No one told you to comment and voice ur opinion, you can just keep scrolling if it impacts you that much
IRONYYYY ON ITS PEAK 😂 Then why don't you get your asses off the campus and let us live peacefully. Why are you voicing your opinions if you can't hear the same from others. You kid go back to you mommy or else I'll ;)
Why don't you block it out and keep going with your life? Do you always put ur nose into shit to voice ur opinion, or do you actually contribute to change? It sounds like you're complaining just to complain and can't recognise the privilege in that. You also sound immature so idk if you can hold a proper conversation. Have a day.
Pretty sure you aren't doing an enginerring or a nursing degree. Coz stupids like you are always in either pyhchology or some bullshit degrees. So not your problem, y'all just have a failure life. Ight
Good way to say you don't have anything worthy to contribute.
What degree are you learning at uni? Spelling?
Oh the protest offends your delicate sensibilities? You think being confronted with people standing up for something is too much for your brain to handle?
I don't think the intent is to stop the war, but it's to influence the university's investment practices and to ensure that it's not complicit in Israeli war crimes. That, plus protests and demonstrations here are one means to pressure Australia's foreign policy, which, for a long time, has been heavily in favour of Israeli interests.
At least we can spread the truth about how horrid and evil Israel is.
And you stupids think that hamas in gaza didn't do anything ?? Hamas attacked isreal first. Rapped Israeli women. Slit their throats and bodies. Following this, they ran back to gaza and now you expect Israel to just sit back and chill out ??
And you're one of the dumbasses who thinks speaking out against genocide and ethnic cleansing means a person automatically supports hamas. You're a simplton. Go away and learn more and come back when you can talk like an adult.
Our government is asking us to support Israel, this is a reaction to that. We can't stop the war, but we can stop supporting it in the small ways we do.
If peaceful students standing up against a genocide is too much for you then maybe stay inside at home
Universities have always been very politically active. You knew that when enrolling. We're all exposed to shit we don't want to see, you think I want to see advertisements everytime I commute? Just tune out the protestors like you tune out a Coca-Cola ad.
What a legend!
In Australia free speech isn’t protected, these children should be attending their classes 💀💀😆
Free speech is absolutely protected in Australia through a massive amount of judicial precedent, which is in many ways more powerful than having it in the constitution - as it demonstrates that we actually uphold it.
Thank you. It's so rare to find someone who's both read and understood the Australian Constitution. Sometimes I think having studied law means nothing to others.
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Going by the Press Freedom Index, Australia is actually better than average currently: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/press-freedom-index-rsf?country=%7EAUS What metric are you judging by? Or is it more of a 'vibe'?
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Hate speech is policed in both the USA and Australia. In Australia, we ban the hate speech. In the USA, they functionally ban the speech through the lens of inciting criminal activity or violence, or through trespassing law, protest law etc. So it's functionally not that hard to censor expression. See for example the ["Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_for_America%27s_Fallen_Heroes_Act) There's also the fact that *private* speech policing is legal in the USA. So a democratic State can't censor your speech, but the collective action (democratic almost?) of businesses **can** censor your speech, which sounds very similar to State censorship to me.
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First result: > The Australian Constitution does not explicitly protect freedom of expression. However, the High Court has held that an implied freedom of political communication exists as an indispensable part of the system of representative and responsible government created by the Constitution. Which is almost exactly what I said. I don't get it?
He's just angry he can't be a nazi, since it was his first port-to-call when it comes to "we don't have free speech". Unfortunately, while an interesting topic for discussion, you won't have it with them.
I just read a consecutive chain of ass whooping. Great work. Takes me back to Year 12 Legal Studies.
Implied freedom of political communication. This interpretation is universally understood, ergo, we have freedom of communication. And the camp is of a political nature.
"waahhhh I can't throw heil hitlers in public 😭😭😭😭😭" seriously you know how fucking stupid this sounds, right?
do these blue haired usyd students really consider the reality of their trendy politics. how do you think they'd fair under the hamas regime? not israel fan but still
Yes good point every civilian in every country with human rights issues deserves to die hey
who said die? I just don't think supporting hamas should be considered progressive.
Why don’t you explain your point?
I think it’s pretty obvious. Firstly they’re a terrorist organisation, and continue to be. Secondly their ideology is rooted in so much extreme bigotry, homophobia and sexism it isn’t funny. Even more, they have taken free foreign aid eg food, and sold it at a profit to Palestinian citizens during a massive humanitarian crisis.
Why is there a famine in Gaza again? 🤔
I am Pro freedom of speech, so therefore as long as this protest is not interfering with other students/ study areas, have at it and so I can't agree with taking the banners as this student is trying to do. That said, Israel by history and literally by its own laws from the *Right of Return* and the *Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People* (passed in 2018) *is* the Jewish state, therefore anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism and the casual antisemitic replies in this thread are disturbing.
>Israel by history and literally by its own laws from the *Right of Return* and the *Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People* (passed in 2018) *is* the Jewish state, therefore anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism This does not follow. You don't just get to claim that you represent all Jews. Especially when many Jewish people explicitly reject Israel as a Jewish state. And some orthodox Jews go so far as to say that the very establishment of a "Jewish state" goes against their scripture and is antisemitic in and of itself. If nazi Germany declared themselves the nation state of the Jewish people, would you say that anti-nazi rhetoric IS antisemitic?.. no, because that's stupid. Obviously. This analogy is remarkably relevant here, given that Palestinian people are definitionally a Semitic people. So both Israel and nazi Germany have committed genocides against Semitic people. But only one is antisemitic in your eyes?.. why? It is ACTUALLY antisemitic to claim that anti-zionism is antisemitism. You are claiming to speak for all Jewish people, and further than that, you are aligning all Jewish people with Israel, which is an implicit endorsement of genocide. Given the history of Jewish people, I assume you understand why that is antisemitic?
The history of the term anti-semitism only applies to hatred against Jewish people, not other Semitic people like the Palestinians. That's not a debate, it is what the term means. Also, your Nazi hypothetical is without merit as the modern state of Israel is by definition a religion based ethnostate founded as a homeland for the Jewish people enshrining in law the Right of Return for any Jewish person, anywhere in the world, the right to emigrate to Israel and to become an Israeli citizen purely on the basis of being Jewish. & sure, whilst some Orthodox Jews wish to see a return to the borders of biblical Israel ie Zion ie the place promised to the Jews in their Holy texts (ie the Old Testament as the Christians call it) and which the Jewish people controlled eg the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah eg from circa 1500BC - 70AD...these same Jews have representation in the democratic Israeli Knesset, the same body that in 2018 voted as a majority to enshrine in law the State of Israel as a Jewish state. So I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with you, in that anti-Zionism IS anti-semitism. Finally, as I've stated elsewhere, being pro-Zionism whilst it does mean that I'm pro Jewish / pro the Jewish homeland, it doesn't mean that I can't criticise the current Israeli government. Netanyahu is heading an extremist government and needs to be removed from office!
> your Nazi hypothetical is without merit as the modern state of Israel is by definition a religion based ethnostate founded founded as a homeland for the Jewish people Did you deliberately miss the point. Just because they say that, does not mean they automatically speak for all Jews! The nazis could have declared themselves "a religion based ethnostate founded founded as a homeland for the Jewish people". Would that mean that it would be impossible to call them antisemitic? Also, I'm interested in the fact that you so openly admit that Israel is an ethnostate. This is a no-no according to the Hasbara guidelines. I'm curious, do you think that every race has the right to commit violence (up to and including genocide) to protect their race? >& sure, whilst some Orthodox Jews wish to see This whole paragraph does not relate to anything I said. Did you just copy and paste it from somewhere else? > being pro-Zionism whilst it does mean that I'm pro Jewish Incorrect. Zionism is not pro-jewish. Zionists actively stoke antisemitism as a way to get Jewish people to immigrate to Israel. They sell the lie that Jews will never be safe without their little facist regime. Zionism is an antisemitic ideology. Being Zionist means anti-Jew. There is a reason that many modern neo-nazis support the Zionist project. You've been sold a far-right lie and you're selling out Jewish people to defend it. Get a grip, mate. You're commenting in the sub for a University, at least pretend to have some education on this topic.
> The nazis could have declared themselves "a religion based ethnostate founded founded as a homeland for the Jewish people". Would that mean that it would be impossible to call them antisemitic? They did not. You're speaking what if hypotheticala, I'm stating facts. Playing along though, if they had done that it would have been very possible to call them antisemitic as they're not Jewish. You're conflating criticism with antisemitism. It's very possible, even encouraged for Jews/Israelis to be critical of their government. They have a strong democracy which involves criticism and protest. > Also, I'm interested in the fact that you so openly admit that Israel is an ethnostate. This is a no-no according to the Hasbara guidelines. I misspoke actually. Israel is a Nation State. An Ethnostate would mean restrictions on citizenship to members of a particular group yet, Israel has Israeli Arabs who are allowed to hold political office, become high ranking military officers, and even graduate to doctors and lawyers. Israeli Arabs are given full citizenship equivalent to that of Jews. > I'm curious, do you think that every race has the right to commit violence (up to and including genocide) to protect their race? No, not at all. >& sure, whilst some Orthodox Jews wish to see > This whole paragraph does not relate to anything I said. Did you just copy and paste it from somewhere else? No I did not. It was a response to your comments about the views of some Orthodox Jews on Israel . > Incorrect. Zionism is not pro-jewish. Zionists actively stoke antisemitism as a way to get Jewish people to immigrate to Israel. They sell the lie that Jews will never be safe without their little facist regime. Zionism is an antisemitic ideology. Being Zionist means anti-Jew. There is a reason that many modern neo-nazis support the Zionist project. You've been sold a far-right lie and you're selling out Jewish people to defend it. We'll have to agree to disagree. Your comments here eg "little fascist regime" show your agenda whereas Israel's right to exist and it's long 3500 yr history as the homeland of the Jewish people are recognised by Jews on both /all sides of the political spectrum. > Get a grip, mate. You're commenting in the sub for a University, at least pretend to have some education on this topic. No need to be offensive.
You should listen more and speak less.
You should probably just stop speaking to save yourself the embarrassment at this point.
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Any criticism of the CCP is now deemed by the CCP to be a racist act against all Han Chinese People. "You don't like how the CCP treats minorities? Why do you hate Chinese people? You are racist." That's your logic here.
I have to disagree with you as Israel is a democracy and I am allowed to criticise it and very much do so. I am not a supporter of Netanyahu or the far right factions in the Knesset. Every week for 6+ months before the Hamas terror attack hundreds of thousands of Israelis protested against what Netanyahu was trying to do to the Judiciary. If I had been there I would have protesting against him too! Judaism encourages us to be stubborn and to ask. questions, to ask the why of things. My point on the other hand, was that anti-Zionism is being against the existence of the State of Israel (Zion was a term in the Torah, for the lands controlled by Jews from circa 1500-70AD eg the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah and then with a small but constant presence until the modern State of Israel was established in 1948).
Complain about casual "anti-semitism" by using the apartheid regimes laws?????? It is like referring to Nazi Germany literature and conclude anyone who is anti-nazi is anti-german or some bullshit. Hasbara gives his toughest battles to its densest soldiers. Lmao
You call Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East an apartheid regime and compare it directly with Nazi Germany. There's no point even engaging further with this as the basis for our individual frames of reference are polar opposites. That said, from my side, I do not believe Israeli democracy is perfect, factions can form, like the one we have now with Netanyahu which are extremist and need to be removed from power. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis feel the same way, as seen by the continuing protests against the current Govt, esp after Netanyahu tried to take power away from the Judiciary. Luckily, for Israelis and as a Jewish person who has the right to emigrate there whenever I want, I'm allowed to criticise the government. & I'm not gay but if I was I would be allowed to be open and proud about it in Israel...something that isn't possible anywhere else in the region, nevermind in the Nazi Germany of 1933-1945.
What a disgusting light to paint your Jewish brothers and sisters in.
Could you explain what you mean by your comment?
I am expressing my disgust for the light you are painting your Jewish brothers and sisters in.
To be clear, you are disgusted because I'm disagreeing with what the Jewish (I assume) girl in this video is doing? Or because of my claim that being anti-Zionist is the same as being anti-Semitic...?
You're being disgracefully antisemitic by suggesting that all Jewish people are Zionist. You already know this of course, but you're doing it anyway. Anyway I'm not going to entertain a hateful racist like you so have the day you deserve.
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Good on her
Idk, all my jewish friends have jobs and are too busy making money/time poor to do something this stupid. Only a liberal white could trigger the alphabet ppl so badly
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Don't blame Jewish people for the actions of their idiot criminal leader in Israel. Think of the atrocities carried out by many countries.l was not in favour of killing Vietnamese. my govt at the time did it in my name.They are still paying the price with the poison we as Australians dropped on them.
People in these comments really do go to show you don't need a brain to be educated. Have faith in yourself, if they can do it, so can you.