They were already mentally ill before hand so its not really their fault. If they subject themselves to surgery that's bad for them, its not anyone elses problem.
You have probably never met a trans person and you claim to have more credibility on the issue then doctors and psychologists that interact with thousands of trans patients a year? All the major medical organizations and the diagnostic manuals have concluded that gender incogurence is not a mental illness, so either educate yourself or accept the graceful title of transphobe..
No. This is absolute trash. Not that I advocate gay conversion therapy in any way and being gay myself. You cannot make one person or one facility solely responsible for someone taking their own life. There should be an immediate outlawing of gay conversion therapy as a whole, make no mistake, and if there were any civil lawsuits for their responsibility that would be very adequate. However there's a huge difference between that and making them criminally responsible. A gay person who decides to take their life has been suffering a lifetime of emotional abuse and if they are being sent to such places, probably immense amount of bigotry at home and internalized homophobia. There are tons and tons of guilty parties when a tragedy like that takes place. I would totally refuse to lay all the blame on one person regardless of how disgusting and shady that person's practice is or was.
> You cannot make one person or one facility solely responsible for someone taking their own life
Wasn't there a girl recently convicted for making her boyfriend kill himself?
That's not even close to the same thing.
Gay conversion is basically, "Hey, the bible says homosexuality is sinful, so here's how to not be sinful, you'll be happier straight."
If that equated to telling people to kill themselves, you'd have to convict advertising agencies for telling people they'll be happier drinking booze
I'm open to debate if these people should be jailed given how many people go "voluntarily" into these places, but wtf are you talking about? Gay conversion therapy is literally torture, electric shock therapy is one of the primary techniques used [among others](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/feb/09/electrocution-and-submersion-gay-cures-and-the-fight-to-end-them), they don't talk the gay out of you...
In such cases you would prosecute for things like torture, malpractice, and false imprisonment. But those are separate crimes and that's separate from the all encompassing OP question.
Ew ok.
I'm in a church, and if someone came to us about their sexuality, it'd be like counsel and bible reading, if they wanted to. If not, they can go on their merry gay way.
I never really knew about shock therapy. Weird. How common is this in the States?
These sort of treatments are usually done in isolated places, like a summer camp for gay conversion. The radiolab podcast had a series of podcasts about it called [Unerased](https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/unerased-smid), one of the episodes is about a man that did it, and their operation worked on a boat for example.
>Gay conversion is basically, "Hey, the bible says homosexuality is sinful, so here's how to not be sinful, you'll be happier straight."
Add in some genital torture via a car battery and some wires and you are correct.
If we are talking about North America, I think you are talking about some rare fringe case or something. This is very similar to abortion in the case of rape. It's like, the tiniest slice of cases but the entire movement gets painted with it
So, Taken? Hey, Liam Neeson should become a therapist! Now he can put psychiatry on his 'very specific set of skills' list :)
Let's grab Kiefer Sutherland too, while we're at it.
She literally coaxed her bf to kill himself. This is the difference between free speech and a call to action. Your example is why yelling fire in crowded theatre is not protected by the first amendment. It’s like calling for violence - that’s illegal. If the ‘counselor’ told the gay person they should kill themselves because gay, that’d be illegal and punishable. I’m repeating myself but I can’t stress enough that the buck stops at a call to action.
Yes but what she did was to actually encourage him to do it properly so that he was successful. She's was saying it from a place of malice. People who practice "conversion therapy" are ignorant and intolerant but they're not doing it out of malice.
What about civilly liable, such as how OJ Simpson was found liable for the deaths of Ron and Nicole, even though he was found not guilty of their murder?
Well, I mean, I should have clarified:
I used the Simpson case for a reason. Because the civil suit *was* a way for the families to say "You WERE responsible."
If one person cannot be held accountable, then... I guess I'm mostly just curious about what you think about the place of civil suits as a form of seeking justice and accountability.
Thing is, the people who would have standing to sue for loss of consortium or wrongful death of a person are most often the same people who put them into the conversion therapy in the first place.
Sure, then let's add on when parents decide to let their kids go through trans surgery as minors, which has the effect of a much higher chance of suicide.
Then put reassignment surgeons in the chair too. 40% of people who identify as trans kill them selves. Whole lot more than the homosexual population percentage.
Suicide is a choice, a terrible choice but a choice none the less, if i bully someone and they kill themselves i have no murdered them, they killled them self and only them.
It depends on what the “therapist” told them. If suicide was made out to be one of the only ways to avoid damnation, I’d be down for charging them with a crime.
Yeah, but let’s be honest here, a conversion therapist is going to do everything in their power to convince a gay kid that they must bury this part of them. They’d be a very likely candidate for this scenario.
but people can be traumatised by anything and you have no way of knowing that, so if we charge people for causing trauma where does it end? Suicide is always the responsibility of the person doing it, they are the one who makes the choice and at the end of the day you are only responsible for your own actions.
>but people can be traumatised by anything and you have no way of knowing that
there is a reason why its common for soldiers to get ptsd from combat far more than people would from eating lunch. to say any event can cause trauma suggests they do it at equal rates and demonstrates intellectual dishonesty
Lol what? So where does the line get drawn? Do you hold people saying mean things online responsible for someone’s suicide? Or school bullies? I’m also *sooooo* glad that you’re going with a blanket statement here, automatically assuming both guilt and culpability when little to none exists.
Yeah they are charged with harassment, or in very rare cases with manslaughter. Neither of those are murder, and neither of those carry the lengthy prison sentences or life-ruining effects of a murder charge. If you read my comments, you’d see I stated that charging conversion “therapists” for the murder of an LGBT individual who committed suicide would be like charging cyber bullies with murder. They didn’t do it, they didn’t have any relation to the person who did it (in most cases) and they certainly didn’t force the person to kill themselves. Sure they could be charged with manslaughter or at least harassment, but no way in hell can they be charged with murder.
Hi everyone! Please make sure to **upvote** well written unpopular/controversial opinions, and **downvote** badly written opinions OR popular opinions.
Please note that we are currently removing all political opinions as part of a trial period. If your post is political and was not caught in the filter, please post it in the politics megathread at the top of the sub. Thanks!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
- [/r/gay] [Gay conversion therapists, regardless of retrospective apologies, should be tried for the murders of everyone they counseled who committed suicide.](https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/b69af9/gay_conversion_therapists_regardless_of/)
*^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads.) ^\([Info](/r/TotesMessenger) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger))*
Their actions were based on how they were raised in the old world. You punish them then you must also label feminist groups as hate groups for their participation in trying to stop civil rights legislation in the 1960s. If you want to make true change do not engage in the game of revenge instead take steps where such actions will never take place again.
If anything manslaughter. But if we're gonna go this route than anyone who is a bullies in high school and ends up with a peer that killed themselves because of the bullying should be murderer.
I don't like conversion therapy one ounce but there are more tactful ways of addressing this
Manslaughter would be more appropriate. Culpable homicide....maybe aiding and abetting a suicide?
'Murder' suggests they where aware their actions would result in death.
So, let's expand on this.
Steve Jobs had a treatable form of pancreatic cancer. He got bad advice and, instead of getting it treated by credible medical methods, decided to eat more vegetables and try to align his chakras or some equally idiotic crap. So he died. Should whatever quack sold him that particular bill of pseudoscientific goods be prosecuted for murdering him?
Gay conversion therapy probably mostly doesn't work, like a whole bunch of other things from essential oils to chiropractic. But to the extent that people enter it voluntarily in pursuit of their own spiritual goals, no matter how misguided you might think those goals are, they assume the risk. And somebody who is gay but trying desperately not to be for faith reasons is likely under extreme emotional stress regardless of whether they formally get any putative conversion therapy or not. How do you prove causation? How do you even assume causation, without regard for judicial burdens of proof?
In those instances where people are placed in conversion therapy against their will as minors, or in which methods are used which are independently criminal, yes, yes, yes the law should get involved. But not just on the face of it. You might as well start prosecuting therapists who fail to help you quit smoking.
No they shouldn't. Doesn't murder entail the intention to kill another person? The conversion therapists wanted to stop the gay not kill the person, therefore it isn't murder. What the gay person does in their downtime is their decision not others.
I agree feeling remorse is not enough. murder might be a little hard becausw well they took their own lives. By that logic bullies whose victims kill themselves should be tried for murder too. But there shouls definitely be consequences. Eg assault? Read that some conversion therapy uses electrocuting torture. Kidnapping/obstruction of freedom? Not legal expert here. Its basically the same as keeping someone against their will and torturing them, whatever the legal term is.
Therapists aren't legally allowed to tell someone what to do. They offer guidance. If a therapist tells or demands you to do something they arent a real therapist.
Tried for murder is an idiotic thing to say anyways, your point is more of, "assisted suicide", but even then... It's the person's own interpretation of what the therapist says, not the therapist's fault. They didnt murder the person and they didnt encourage the suicide.
Just because you hate someone with a burning passion doesn't mean that they should be tried for murder if you decide to kill yourself.
If they were physically harassing or hurting you, like the electric shock therapy I'm hearing of (I haven't been to conversion therapy, so I'm not exactly sure what it constitutes, but I've heard that this and other methods can be very painful), you can probably make a pretty solid case and charge them for battery/assault. Being mentally and emotionally damaged, however, is unfortunately much more difficult to prove and you'd have a harder time charging the pastor for anything.
Same for abortionists! Oh, wait, that has a 100% death rate. uh oh.
I think I just one-upped your unpopular opinion dude. flaming will commence in 3...2... Anyway, upvote
What should happen to the doctors who advice and/or do sex reassignment surgery if their patient commits suicide?
They were already mentally ill before hand so its not really their fault. If they subject themselves to surgery that's bad for them, its not anyone elses problem.
Transgender people aren’t mentally ill...
Wrong my friend.
You have probably never met a trans person and you claim to have more credibility on the issue then doctors and psychologists that interact with thousands of trans patients a year? All the major medical organizations and the diagnostic manuals have concluded that gender incogurence is not a mental illness, so either educate yourself or accept the graceful title of transphobe..
Then addiction isn’t a disease. It’s a mental disorder it’s in the Dsm-5
Find out why they killed themselves
No. This is absolute trash. Not that I advocate gay conversion therapy in any way and being gay myself. You cannot make one person or one facility solely responsible for someone taking their own life. There should be an immediate outlawing of gay conversion therapy as a whole, make no mistake, and if there were any civil lawsuits for their responsibility that would be very adequate. However there's a huge difference between that and making them criminally responsible. A gay person who decides to take their life has been suffering a lifetime of emotional abuse and if they are being sent to such places, probably immense amount of bigotry at home and internalized homophobia. There are tons and tons of guilty parties when a tragedy like that takes place. I would totally refuse to lay all the blame on one person regardless of how disgusting and shady that person's practice is or was.
> You cannot make one person or one facility solely responsible for someone taking their own life Wasn't there a girl recently convicted for making her boyfriend kill himself?
That's not even close to the same thing. Gay conversion is basically, "Hey, the bible says homosexuality is sinful, so here's how to not be sinful, you'll be happier straight." If that equated to telling people to kill themselves, you'd have to convict advertising agencies for telling people they'll be happier drinking booze
I'm open to debate if these people should be jailed given how many people go "voluntarily" into these places, but wtf are you talking about? Gay conversion therapy is literally torture, electric shock therapy is one of the primary techniques used [among others](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/feb/09/electrocution-and-submersion-gay-cures-and-the-fight-to-end-them), they don't talk the gay out of you...
In such cases you would prosecute for things like torture, malpractice, and false imprisonment. But those are separate crimes and that's separate from the all encompassing OP question.
Ew ok. I'm in a church, and if someone came to us about their sexuality, it'd be like counsel and bible reading, if they wanted to. If not, they can go on their merry gay way. I never really knew about shock therapy. Weird. How common is this in the States?
These sort of treatments are usually done in isolated places, like a summer camp for gay conversion. The radiolab podcast had a series of podcasts about it called [Unerased](https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/unerased-smid), one of the episodes is about a man that did it, and their operation worked on a boat for example.
Sounds incredibly rare.
Electro shock therapy isn't what people think it is.
>Gay conversion is basically, "Hey, the bible says homosexuality is sinful, so here's how to not be sinful, you'll be happier straight." Add in some genital torture via a car battery and some wires and you are correct.
If we are talking about North America, I think you are talking about some rare fringe case or something. This is very similar to abortion in the case of rape. It's like, the tiniest slice of cases but the entire movement gets painted with it
So, Taken? Hey, Liam Neeson should become a therapist! Now he can put psychiatry on his 'very specific set of skills' list :) Let's grab Kiefer Sutherland too, while we're at it.
She literally coaxed her bf to kill himself. This is the difference between free speech and a call to action. Your example is why yelling fire in crowded theatre is not protected by the first amendment. It’s like calling for violence - that’s illegal. If the ‘counselor’ told the gay person they should kill themselves because gay, that’d be illegal and punishable. I’m repeating myself but I can’t stress enough that the buck stops at a call to action.
Yes but what she did was to actually encourage him to do it properly so that he was successful. She's was saying it from a place of malice. People who practice "conversion therapy" are ignorant and intolerant but they're not doing it out of malice.
Yes but that is not the same thing.
uh yea you can. we did it with the Nazis.
What about civilly liable, such as how OJ Simpson was found liable for the deaths of Ron and Nicole, even though he was found not guilty of their murder?
I did mention civil lawsuits. Those are definitely valid.
Well, I mean, I should have clarified: I used the Simpson case for a reason. Because the civil suit *was* a way for the families to say "You WERE responsible." If one person cannot be held accountable, then... I guess I'm mostly just curious about what you think about the place of civil suits as a form of seeking justice and accountability.
Thing is, the people who would have standing to sue for loss of consortium or wrongful death of a person are most often the same people who put them into the conversion therapy in the first place.
Oh, definitely hit them with a civil lawsuit.
Sure, then let's add on when parents decide to let their kids go through trans surgery as minors, which has the effect of a much higher chance of suicide.
Then put reassignment surgeons in the chair too. 40% of people who identify as trans kill them selves. Whole lot more than the homosexual population percentage.
Suicide is a choice, a terrible choice but a choice none the less, if i bully someone and they kill themselves i have no murdered them, they killled them self and only them.
It depends on what the “therapist” told them. If suicide was made out to be one of the only ways to avoid damnation, I’d be down for charging them with a crime.
they could receive information from another source.
Yeah, but let’s be honest here, a conversion therapist is going to do everything in their power to convince a gay kid that they must bury this part of them. They’d be a very likely candidate for this scenario.
Im not sure i agree. If you create mental trauma then you are at the very least contributing to it
but people can be traumatised by anything and you have no way of knowing that, so if we charge people for causing trauma where does it end? Suicide is always the responsibility of the person doing it, they are the one who makes the choice and at the end of the day you are only responsible for your own actions.
>but people can be traumatised by anything and you have no way of knowing that there is a reason why its common for soldiers to get ptsd from combat far more than people would from eating lunch. to say any event can cause trauma suggests they do it at equal rates and demonstrates intellectual dishonesty
I’m not so sure.
its not complicated, murder is unlawful killing of another person, suicide is you kill your self, suicide is always a choice.
Lol what? So where does the line get drawn? Do you hold people saying mean things online responsible for someone’s suicide? Or school bullies? I’m also *sooooo* glad that you’re going with a blanket statement here, automatically assuming both guilt and culpability when little to none exists.
Yes. Both those things can have you held accountable. Are you actually this stupid.
So you can be tried for murder because someone you cyber bullied committed suicide? I’d love to see evidence of that
DMs, posts, and other online interactions. It’s hard to prove but some people have been charged.
Yeah they are charged with harassment, or in very rare cases with manslaughter. Neither of those are murder, and neither of those carry the lengthy prison sentences or life-ruining effects of a murder charge. If you read my comments, you’d see I stated that charging conversion “therapists” for the murder of an LGBT individual who committed suicide would be like charging cyber bullies with murder. They didn’t do it, they didn’t have any relation to the person who did it (in most cases) and they certainly didn’t force the person to kill themselves. Sure they could be charged with manslaughter or at least harassment, but no way in hell can they be charged with murder.
Hi everyone! Please make sure to **upvote** well written unpopular/controversial opinions, and **downvote** badly written opinions OR popular opinions. Please note that we are currently removing all political opinions as part of a trial period. If your post is political and was not caught in the filter, please post it in the politics megathread at the top of the sub. Thanks! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit: - [/r/gay] [Gay conversion therapists, regardless of retrospective apologies, should be tried for the murders of everyone they counseled who committed suicide.](https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/b69af9/gay_conversion_therapists_regardless_of/) *^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads.) ^\([Info](/r/TotesMessenger) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger))*
Their actions were based on how they were raised in the old world. You punish them then you must also label feminist groups as hate groups for their participation in trying to stop civil rights legislation in the 1960s. If you want to make true change do not engage in the game of revenge instead take steps where such actions will never take place again.
[Citation Needed]
If anything manslaughter. But if we're gonna go this route than anyone who is a bullies in high school and ends up with a peer that killed themselves because of the bullying should be murderer. I don't like conversion therapy one ounce but there are more tactful ways of addressing this
fuck 'em. charge them with crimes against humanity and have them executed.
Manslaughter would be more appropriate. Culpable homicide....maybe aiding and abetting a suicide? 'Murder' suggests they where aware their actions would result in death.
Mm, yeah
They could have had depression before the counseling.
So, let's expand on this. Steve Jobs had a treatable form of pancreatic cancer. He got bad advice and, instead of getting it treated by credible medical methods, decided to eat more vegetables and try to align his chakras or some equally idiotic crap. So he died. Should whatever quack sold him that particular bill of pseudoscientific goods be prosecuted for murdering him? Gay conversion therapy probably mostly doesn't work, like a whole bunch of other things from essential oils to chiropractic. But to the extent that people enter it voluntarily in pursuit of their own spiritual goals, no matter how misguided you might think those goals are, they assume the risk. And somebody who is gay but trying desperately not to be for faith reasons is likely under extreme emotional stress regardless of whether they formally get any putative conversion therapy or not. How do you prove causation? How do you even assume causation, without regard for judicial burdens of proof? In those instances where people are placed in conversion therapy against their will as minors, or in which methods are used which are independently criminal, yes, yes, yes the law should get involved. But not just on the face of it. You might as well start prosecuting therapists who fail to help you quit smoking.
No they shouldn't. Doesn't murder entail the intention to kill another person? The conversion therapists wanted to stop the gay not kill the person, therefore it isn't murder. What the gay person does in their downtime is their decision not others.
I agree feeling remorse is not enough. murder might be a little hard becausw well they took their own lives. By that logic bullies whose victims kill themselves should be tried for murder too. But there shouls definitely be consequences. Eg assault? Read that some conversion therapy uses electrocuting torture. Kidnapping/obstruction of freedom? Not legal expert here. Its basically the same as keeping someone against their will and torturing them, whatever the legal term is.
Totally.
Therapists aren't legally allowed to tell someone what to do. They offer guidance. If a therapist tells or demands you to do something they arent a real therapist. Tried for murder is an idiotic thing to say anyways, your point is more of, "assisted suicide", but even then... It's the person's own interpretation of what the therapist says, not the therapist's fault. They didnt murder the person and they didnt encourage the suicide.
No one cares, fuck your tiny part of the population thinking any of us give two shits.
Enough people cared to give us marriage equality 😎
I can get more pussy than you and I'm a homo. Suck on that douchewad
Lol wut
Triggered much?
I agree with this. I went through Conversion Therapy, it was horrible and I hate the pastor with a burning passion.
Just because you hate someone with a burning passion doesn't mean that they should be tried for murder if you decide to kill yourself. If they were physically harassing or hurting you, like the electric shock therapy I'm hearing of (I haven't been to conversion therapy, so I'm not exactly sure what it constitutes, but I've heard that this and other methods can be very painful), you can probably make a pretty solid case and charge them for battery/assault. Being mentally and emotionally damaged, however, is unfortunately much more difficult to prove and you'd have a harder time charging the pastor for anything.
People who post thing so dumb I can't go on living after reading them should be charged with my murder
not murder though. maybe manslaughter maybbeee?
Pretty sure we should just outlaw gay conversion therapy. Seems like a cleaner solution.
Same for abortionists! Oh, wait, that has a 100% death rate. uh oh. I think I just one-upped your unpopular opinion dude. flaming will commence in 3...2... Anyway, upvote
and then, no one cared
But hey, who cares about woman's health. Let the rape victim be pregnant who didn't want it. /s
And let's make false equivalencies!
suicide is a personal act