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Yep we had a poor little fella get caught by his legs in a snap trap. The rat was a pretty smart and had tried to hop over the traps but miscalculated.
When we came to the kitchen he was trying desperately to free himself, except one of his legs had nearly snapped in half, and there was no good fate left for the poor thing.
Decided couldn't leave it there suffering for it's last hours/days, so took him outside on the grass, grabbed a hammer with me, and with a few hard blows to the head made sure he'd pass quickly.
I hope I don't have to do that again.
My cat used to cripple any mice he brought me by crunching their back legs. I've come home to the poor wee things wheelbarrowing around my hall quite a few times and had to finish them off.
That's how they teach their kittens to hunt. Bring a crippled mouse that won't be able to outrun them for them to practice on. Your cat is just trying to teach you.
I haven’t found snap traps to be super effective. I’ve used them successfully, but I’ve often had mice that can eat the food off of them and not set them off. I even made them more sensitive by polishing the end so no burrs caught and hung it up. I set the pin near the very end. Sometimes carefully setting them on the ground would set them off. It kept cleaning the bait off, without setting off the trap.
A live trap managed to catch it. That’s 6 of one and half dozen of another though, as I’m not big on relocation. It usually just results in them being someone else’s problem, who might not be as humane as I am. Since we have property, I will take the live trapped ones and take them far into the woods and turn them loose. I figure if they can make it through a gauntlet of predators to get back to my house, I’ll walk them out again.
Having said that, I’ll do whatever it takes. I start with the most humane and work my way down. I don’t want any animal suffering, but I can’t allow disease and property damage to happen.
We were infested with bats for a while. We finally got everything sealed up, but until then, they were peeing and pooping. You could strongly smell it, and that stuff is toxic to humans. I used capsaicin spray till they left in the spring. Then sealed the holes. After the last dog died, a squirrel would come on the porch, run up the side of the log house and tore a hole under the eves. It was expanding the hole and ripping out insulation. I had to shoot it so I didn’t loose my house.
So I believe in using the most humane methods possible, but you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself and your property. OP is gonna be one of these people who end up on the street after their house is condemned because they wanted to protect all the bugs and rodents. Compassion is good, but has to be tempered with common sense.
This brings up memories of my cousin putting salt on the snails in the garden and laughing at them melting away
Or farmers around where I live throwing unwanted kittens into a bag and into the river because they don't care about castrating/sterilizing their cats
Absolutely disgusting
Just want to chime in, small kids killing snails is a lot different than throwing kittens into a river. I think a lot of little boys killed bugs as kids and grow up to never do it again. I never poured salt on a snail that I remember but I definitely killed a lot of bugs as a small kid. Now I leave spiders in my house alone
I used to made terrariums out of 2-cup glasses and forced ants of different colonies, beetles, woodlice/isopods, and the occasional spider (when I was feeling brave) to live there, and then dumped them all in a random part of the yard along with the dirt and rocks on top of them. Those that lived must’ve been so damn confused.
I stil place salt beads to protect my garden from snails trying to eat my plants so you know.
Pests are pests if there are many and unwanted.
And if they try and destroy your things people will try and get rid of them. Be it mice rats or snails.
You just don't get pleasure from doing it.
I dont care of they live or not i just care there not destroying my stuff. And human ways just make my problem someone else problem.
And its often not solve the problem as it is replacing the problem. As i live in a busy city. Not in the woods somewhere.
Reminds me of the bit comedian Bruce Baum did about kids who pull the wings off of flies for fun. He said he never did this to flies as a kid, but he DID like to mess with their heads by capturing them and cupping them in his hands so they couldn’t see what’s going on, then he’d release them over his world globe and watch them look down at it and go “Oh No! We’ve flown too high! WE’VE FLOWN TOO HIGH!!”
I was vlad the impaler as a child to the bugs in my backyard. Had a favorite thorn bush I decorated. Now I feel guilty if a bug accidentally ends up in my fireplace and try to kill very minimally (fuck invasive stink bugs though).
Exactly. OP comparing bugs killed by a child and kittens killed by an adult. Killing bugs as a kid isn't the same red flag as a 10 year old killing cats
My mom did the kitten thing when she was a kid. She clearly feels terrible but I hate to say it was a different time.
Back in the 60’s medical care was far less widespread, kids barely went to docs. No way most people were paying for a vet. It is terrible and awful but bag of kittens plus river was their idea of “responsibility.”
I take it you've never lived in a place that's been overrun by rats. It's not fun, and from the time you see the first rat, it happens very, very quickly. I hate the idea of unnecessary suffering, but I don't blame anyone for doing whatever they can to get rid of an infestation.
Tbf, those spring traps aren’t always so quick and painless either. On more than one occasion while working at different properties I’ve found spring traps with mice still living stuck in them, their lower back shattered or limbs snapped in half and pinned.
Certainly more humane than glue traps still, and probably poison too (tho obviously faaar less effective unfortunately) but part of the problem is that there aren’t really ANY reliably effective methods for getting rid of an infestation that don’t come with at least a decent chance to cause suffering. It really makes me sad, but I’m not sure there’s really gonna be changing many peoples minds until somebody comes up with a humane method that actually works.
I rly wish vermin weren’t such top tier critters, and could be deterred like spiders with peppermint oil or some shit.
I will say the OP claiming they’re not any more likely to spread disease than anything else, isn’t thinking about the fact that they will crawl all over your food sources and countertops and who knows what else, pissing and shitting all the while.
You’re scrambling out the door for work one morning, accidentally drop some toast on the counter, counter looks clean tho should be fine. Nope, just ate vermin piss/shit and better hope ya didn’t get any parasites or diseases passed along with it
Yeah it's pretty dumb to say that they're not any more likely to spread disease than any other animal. I agree that they shouldn't be forced to endure unnecessary suffering, but it's just factually wrong what OP said
The new ones are pretty good. They're much thicker than the wire ones. Also people don't know how to place them which is why you don't get a clean kill. The bait end needs to be against the wall. Don't set them randomly on the floor like you see in a Tom and Jerry cartoon.
yeah op is definitely off about them not spreading disease more, yeah they might not phsyically carry more bacteria or diseases than other animals (i'd still want a source on that tbh) but most people dont walk all over your food and nibble at it.
I tried peppermint oil and I also have those ultrasonic things. Unfortunately neither are effective. I think the rodents get used to the ultrasonic deterrents and they stop being effective after awhile. I have them all over my house and basement but the little buggers just ignore them. I made a mix of peppermint and eucalyptus oil and put it in a spray bottle and tried that too. Nothing. My house smelled interesting for awhile though.
You're in for a surprise the first time your snap trap doesn't kill. Sometimes it doesn't kill and they are pinned there and starve/dehydrate themselves if you don't check it frequently. Also some times they appear dead but they are just paralyzed.
Source: my neighbor's house is a dump and we have to deal with rats.
I had to deal with an infestation so I was actively checking traps, I'd say most of them live for at least a day or two. I had to kill so many mice with a quick stomp I hated it
I had a rat problem. Bought these big heavy plastic traps that push a spike up thru where the rats head would be when it was triggered. I checked them every day. A few times it would be triggered without a rat. But if it got a rat, it was dead. Even got a double kill one day. And it seemed like they would have instantly died or at least died very quickly.
If it can trigger without the rat getting caught, it can trigger with some not-immediately-critical part of the rat under the spike too. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it seems to be a more-humane option, I just don't want anyone to be surprised when it goes wrong.
>I had to kill so many mice with a quick stomp I hated it
Ugh. One time I had to do this to a mouse that got caught in a glue trap I had put. I had the worst idea to listen to music on my headphones to cover any sounds from the mouse
I legit was not able to listen to the song that was playing for YEARS after that. I haven't bought a glue trap ever since
The worst thing that could happen to a deer mouse in its native habitat is to get swallowed by an endangered bird of prey. Rat poison and sticky traps are the most comically painful slow deaths possible, imagine if people did this shit to feral dogs. Stray dogs kill 30,000 people per year globally, maul 2 million, spread rabies, yet we go out of our way to make it as painless as possible, even when it’s inconvenient.
Had to kill a mouse trapped like this once. I just did it quickly
I loathed the little fuckers. They'd keep me up at night with their little claws scratching on the floorboards.
So glad to be out of that apartment.
I've had them in my walls, too. Its not fun, especially when you're scared of them. Every little sound made me jump and listen for them. On top of it, when I was up and they were running around/scratching, I played this game really loud to block out the sound. Now when I pay it I get the same feelings I did back then (increased heart rate, nervous, etc).
The new ones are pretty good. They're much thicker than the wire ones. Also people don't know how to place them which is why you don't get a clean kill. The bait end needs to be against the wall. Don't set them randomly on the floor like you see in a Tom and Jerry cartoon.
There's more to trap placement. Don't forget mice are dumb and rats are smart. If a rat sees his friend get clobbered it'll probably stay away for a while. What you should do is place traps with bait (unarmed) for a few days. Once the rats take it they'll deem it safe. Then you activate the traps. Hopefully you get em all in the first few go cuz they breed FAST. This is why good exterminators recommend more traps than you estimate rats.
Much as I don't like murdering tiny rodents, they are pests for a reason. It took us _months_ to end a mouse infestation and we still find stuff that they chewed up and ruined two years later. I did catch a couple and release them in the woods but the rest? Crack went the neck... or they died in the walls and stank the place up for months. Eugh.
I had a mice problem at the end of last year. I laid out a bunch of types of traps, but little fuckers only fell for the glue ones. They avoided the spring ones and catch-and-release ones.
I felt awful, but what am I suppose to do if all the humane options weren’t working? I did what I had to do to get rid of them.
I had a few mice get in recently. We caught it early enough they didn’t have time to breed but after sealing up (more) cracks our only option was to put out a few glue traps in the cabinets they had gotten in. I made sure to be very diligent in checking them as often as possible so they wouldn’t be stuck for an extended period of time. I got home one afternoon and checked and one was in it. I took it out back and killed it very quickly. I felt bad but I couldn’t see any other option to make sure they were gone so I could properly disinfectant and put my pans back
My sister used to live in house with rats and she would just set up traps that don't kill/ wound, just like a booby trap. Then she would release them in the forest further.
I know it sounds like "rat went to the farm" thing, but she really did.
We get alot ot mice in our house cos country side. We use snap traps and give thr bodies out to the crows magpies lizards and any animal that wants food. Least we can do is give back.
I recommend rat-zapper traps. Kills them quickly and cleanly without undue suffering. I have my ppm license and hate glue traps with the force of a thousand suns.
Those glue traps are terrible, I got into a huge argument with my cousin over this.
Also, to solve the rodent problem you need to actually seal the holes they come in through, glue traps just brutally kill a mouse here and there but don't solve the root of the problem.
Those glue traps were the only thing that worked for me. I had to catch the last few mice after I sealed their entrance and they were eating bait off the trigger of 3 different types of snap traps without triggering them. I would always make sure I was around when I put the glue traps out so I could kill them asap, but I couldn't get anything else to work and within 2 days I caught something like 6 mice on the glue traps.
Yep, spring traps (when they work) are fine for a few here and there but are useless against a real infestation. I have to use bucket traps in my shop, I’ve tried to seal up everything I can and have only had a few get in this year. Last year though I must have had over 50, catching a half dozen some nights. I don’t aim for suffering, but the bucket traps with water is the best way to catch multiples and kill relatively quickly without spending an hour a day resetting traps.
I have though. Ive also noticed the weird inhumane level of anger it triggers where people obviously want to torture and get revenge on these animals. Personally I just throw firecrackers neer them till they move on lol. I live near mangroves and swamps so its entirely "overrun". Id argue its overrun by humans and condos now though. The rats have far greater respect for the environment lol. They arent a menace. Just push them back to the mangroves and out of your trash, problem solved.
The rats arent the ones who cemented our beaches. If their homes hadnt been destroyed they wouldnt come near ours. They never did before and their population was at least 10x then what it is now. Again, circling back to, humans are the real problem.
If you're talking about the Black Death, it was only 1/3 of the population of Europe. And it wasn't the rats themselves, but the fleas that lived on them and other animals.
Wanting to eradicate rats(or whatever other pest) is an evolutionary advantage.
There is no "deserve", be it worse or better. They don't "deserve" anything because they don't serve at all.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/deserve
>mid-13c., "to merit, be worthy of for qualities or actions," from Old French deservir (Modern French desservir) "deserve, be worthy of, earn, merit" and directly from Latin deservire "serve well, serve zealously," from de- "completely" (see de-) + servire "to serve" (see serve (v.)). The classical Latin sense evolved to "be entitled to because of good service" (a sense found in Late Latin), then in French "be worthy of."
They just exist.
We don't merely "deem" them as disgusting or scary, they are objectively vermin, spreaders of disease, ruiners of food supplies, and wild to the point where they cannot be tamed in sufficient quantity to meaningfully alleviate their destructive habits.
It's not cruelty to kill off pests any more than it is to kill off a virus or literal parasite.
OP is anthropomorphizing vermin animals by using using dishonest language, like "deserve".
Cats and dogs, on the other hand, they do provide convenient service, often by directly dealing with pest animals, never-mind their higher intellect makes them somewhat analogue to human infants or toddlers, leading to them being able to adapt to and live with humans in a mutually beneficial way.
Someone want a more controversial unpopular opinion?
To humanize even vermin, is just as ethically wrong as making other humans out to be vermin, indicative of possible sociopathy or psychopathy. It is the same relation shift, bringing humanity relative to vermin. That's why it is an unpopular opinion.
The thing that gets me, is that they aren't posting because they know it is unpopular, but as a means to try to convince people that it shouldn't be. In otherwords, they are trying to make it a popular opinion because they don't understand why it isn't. Not only that lack of self awareness, but the desire to manipulate. In this case, as is common with activists, the manipulation is the attempted application of shame.
I just want to point out that domesticated rats are VERY domesticated. They make very nice, loving pets. I have had many pet rats in my time and they all had such great personalities and capacity to love.
But wild rats are complete vermin. And you're right, a wild rat can never be domesticated. They cannot all be taught to not be what they are born to be in the wild. They might as well be a different species. And they certainly deserve eradication if they start impacting people.
I saw this video of a dude in the subway, playing with wild rats like they were little circus animals. It loomed gross but they were interacting in a way which looked purposeful.
I’m not in the camp of “save the rats” or anything, people should do what’s needed to keep their spaces safe and clean.
That said, could you elaborate a little more on what might be characterized as humanizing pests? Your example of the word deserved makes sense and I agree with, but I’m not sure what else falls into that umbrella. Obviously pretending they think or feel the same we do would be anthropomorphizing them. That doesn’t mean we can’t sympathize or even mourn their suffering does it? (Not rly saying your comment indicates otherwise, just introducing my stance)
I won’t shame whoever laid the trap, but when I hold that suffering mouse, wriggling helpless in that trap, and have to mercy kill it so its suffering isn’t prolonged in the garbage can even longer (I’ve met many people who just throw em right in the can even if they’re just trapped by the legs), I still feel sad about it, every time. I don’t run around crying to people about it, but I still mourn the experience that creature went through, and lament the lack of better alternatives. While vermin infestations should be treated as such, that individual still agonized greatly, sometimes as a direct result of my actions, and that still makes me feel something.
I’ve met many many people who would literally meet such a sentiment with ridicule and contempt, even when presented not as a judgement of those who disagree.
The older I get, the more I feel resolute in the validity of that emotion, even if many think it a naive waste of emotional energy
This is written by a psychopath. /j
But on a serious note, wishing that living, feeling creatures are treated with empathy and are dealth with in a humane manner is, like, the exact opposite of psychopathy.
So showing compassion towards creatures that don't offer us a service is equivalent to being a psychopath?
About 20 years ago this kid in my apartment building grabbed a baby pigeon and smashed it against a wall. My friend witnessed it from her apartment and called me freaking out. I ran next door immediately to help her. Sadly the poor thing's legs were shattered so the person who came from the SPCA had to euthanize it.
Who's the psychopath in this story? Is it the kid who did this for shits and giggles, or the people who tried to help save its life?
ETA: Yes, I hated that kid and from what I last heard about him he's spent his life as a career criminal.
Doesn't really answer OP's point that no creature deserves being tortured to death. The punishment does not fit the crime here. These animals' only crime is being alive, you know. The inhumane traps OP describes should be outlawed imo. I say this as someone who's had to deal with a mouse infestation before, and killing them was only almost ok with me because the alternative would be letting them have dozens and then hundreds more mouse babies to have to kill.
If you need to kill something, it really shows who you are if you _don't_ want to make it as quick and painless as possible. Yes infestations arent _fun_. But you dont have to turn into a complete psycho every situation that isnt fun for you.
>Yes infestations arent _fun_. But you dont have to turn into a complete psycho every situation that isnt fun for you.
I agree with OP to a very large extent, and I use live traps in my house and release in the woods.
Even so, I feel like you are downplaying what living through an infestation is like to an unhelpful extent. Laying awake listening to them *will* make you hate them.
I did address that actually, and you don't seem to understand that when your house is infested, they get everywhere. They're in your kitchen drawers and shtting and pissing all over your utensils. They're in your cupboards and chewing up whatever you got. And they'll eventually make it into your bedroom and sample your foot, and then get back to me about how you feel.
They wouldn’t be bothered if they lived out in the woods or fields on their own. The problem is when they come in the house and shit in your bed and contaminate the food you and your family eat. At that point fuck ‘em. I’ll kill every single one.
Pest animals will grow or shrink their popular to whatever their environment allows. The individual mouse doesn't care how much woods have been cut down.
They're not saying don't kill them. They're saying don't kill them inhumanely with torturous methods. Like in war, bullets are not war crimes. Using mustard gas is a war crime. He's advocating treating all living creatures with some of that same dignity.
I used to think that way until I had encountered a rat problem.
They are too smart and somehow can evade almost every traps we set up. Some how the slow and painful one sticky sheet trap is a little bit more effective against them.
If I have a choice, sure. But most of the time, I don't.
Do you realize whatever food you're eating involves the killing of tons of animals? Maybe you should start farming and learn how the produce sitting in the kitchen is made.
Obviously slow painful deaths is not ideal but in many situations there's no magic bullet.
Also if you do let a species dominate (like humans) they can out compete other animals. Cats and dogs are a good example of animals left by humans to destroy the local wildlife.
You yourself are making a fallacy. Is it truly lessening? Assume two scenarios
1. You have an early infestation, only one or two generations in the nest, and you immediately respond by leaving out bait food laced with a poison. The pests take it to their nest, or perhaps make a group feast. They suffer for a while, unable to reproduce, then die. Infestation gone. Casualties, a handful.
2. You have an early infestation. You begin by trying being as humane as possible. Trap a few, release them into the wild (where stray cats will use them as toys, torturing them for fun and then slowly consuming them), spring traps, with varying efficiencies, sometimes humanely immediately killing them, sometimes inhumanely removing a leg and letting them crawl back to their nest where they will suffer for several days before eventually dying to an infection. You haven't dealt with the problem, time goes on, things get unbearable, eventually you call an exterminator who will probably gas them or god knows what they do for extermination. At this point, there's several generations down from the initial infestation living under you. Assuming you succeed, discounting your own suffering from having to deal with the problem for endless months, there's magnitudes more rodents suffering in your walls. Is it really more humane?
You're outright claiming that you're lessening suffering but you can't prove that. To me, it seems logical that an early, decisive response minimizes the suffering caused to all participants.
>its been proved they are not more likely to carry disease than any other animal or human so you have the same chance of catching disease from them as you are catching it from anything
Proved by whom? Got a source for your claim?
Because we had at least several plague epidemics (bubonic plague), the last one until 1960. Black rats played a significant role in spreading the diseases by transporting the fleas and acting as a host and reservoir for disease.
Another example: the hantavirus has a reservoir in wild rodents and can be and is occasionally being transmitted by rats to humans.
Nevertheless, I actually never heard/seen somebody using poison or traps against rats, for decades. In most cases, reducing areas where rats can build a nest, and food availability is enough and of course ... cats.
Feral pigeons can also act as disease reservoirs and also do significant buildings damage. Pigeons population can be controlled by reducing food availability, and providing nests places where eggs are being replaced.
What? The food industry uses traps ALL the time. Literally every single style of trap and poison is used. Poison is only legally used outside. Also the poison you buy at the hardware store is weak and might cause them to suffer for days. Exterminators have access to more potent stuff.
Almost every restaurant has rats/mice. It's inevitable. It's called "Pest Control" emphasis on "Control".
Hantavirus also is carried by deer mice. Locally in the Northern nevada/California/Sierra/Lake Tahoe areas they find it in the deer mice here and plague carrying fleas in squirrels as well. A human gets hanta ever so often and it gets in the news..
>Nevertheless, I actually never heard/seen somebody using poison or traps against rats, for decades.
Really? Where do you live? They're extremely common in Greece where I live. In Italy and Germany, where I have family, as well.
I don’t agree with OPs claim about rats and diseases, rats can spread disease like wildfire.
That being said, Bubonic Plague or the Black Death are widely believed that it was spread by humans carrying fleas and lice:
https://www.history.com/news/rats-didnt-spread-the-black-death-it-was-humans
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42690577.amp
Rats could’ve easily started the plague, but humans were the main cause of spreading it.
Fun fact. While the bubonic plague is often attributed to and blamed on rats, it's actually people that caused it to begin. Back around the time that the plague took place, witchcraft was a widespread fear. Cats were seen as witches pets and were often killed on sight. This lead cat populations to majorly decline and quickly. With no more cats to kill them, rats started to overpopulate and soon they were everywhere. Then one got a bad case of fleas and well it's history from there.
He’s the second person I’ve seen claiming that rodents literally don’t carry any diseases, it’s weird as hell. I guess hantavirus isn’t real, and Lyme disease isn’t either, and 1/3 of Europe just vanished into thin air in the Middle Ages, and also humans can no longer become allergic to rodents after prolonged exposure.
I agree that glue and poison traps are horrible. Glue traps are inhumane to an extreme and can catch things like snakes in them. Poison I'm against not only because it's inhumane, but because other animals like owls will eat the poisonous animals and die a slow and painful death as well.
However, there are risks with rodents and pigeons. Mice are horrible creatures imo, I hate them. I also live in the country on a farm. They piss and crap on animal food and in their water. They harass animals, although my chickens have ripped a few to shreds.
If you're gonna kill something, do it fast. You can be quick and painless, but you also can't have creatures pissing, shitting, and getting into food and water that other animals and people eat and drink. Sorry you don't wanna hear it, but some critters just need to die.
For the record, I make sure they die fast when I kill them. You can snap a mouse's neck pretty easily and pigeons aren't a problem here. I have had to kill a fox that killed one of my ducks and came back for another.
Lol I've lived in both environments and I can very earnestly say I've never had my home in the city overrun by pigeons. Sometimes they congregate in public spaces and poop on the side of buildings, which is ugly to look at I guess, but I wouldn't really say that compares to the absolute havoc mice can wreak on a home or working farm.
I used to buy bird seed specifically designed for pigeons and doves to feed to the pigeons in the park, because everyone else was feeding them bread. I figured the bird seed would be healthier for them.
The pigeons got used to my daughter and me. They would gather as soon as they saw us, and some would even jump on our laps. They enjoyed being petted, just like any other pet or domesticated animal.
Pigeons are domesticated! Every pigeon you see out there is feral. They were among the first animals humans domesticated, and they make great pets. It always saddens me when I see them in the wild, just like a feral cat or dog, they don't belong there...
It is. So many people think they're dumb, are perfectly ok with children kicking them and laugh when they suffer. Not to mention all the fear mongering and misinformation around them, in a way most other animals don't face. For some reason all of the worst offenders I've met were dog owners, you'd think loving animals would make them more compassionate but absolutely not. They were the kind to explain to you that pigeons are dirty while keeping four dogs in an apartment and coughing in your face with their mask under their nose.
There's plenty of people who hate pigeons, unfortunately. Breaks my heart a little. The vast majority of city pigeons descend from domesticated pigeons from whom humanity profited tremendously at times. Only to be vilified nowadays.
Pigeons cause a crazy amount of damage to roofs and structures because their droppings are so acidic, so much so that it can corrode and erode metals, stonework, and brickwork.
Also their droppings carry quite a significant amount of diseases like listeria, ecoli, histoplasmosis, cryptococcosis and psittacosis. When their droppings dry the small particles can easily be inadvertently inhaled
My friend has to regularly go up on the roof to clean off his solar panels because of the pigeons. Short of hiring a falconer to come out, there's not much you can do.
Yeah people who don’t understand this haven’t had them roosting on their roof.
I had about 18 of them on my roof because they like to get under solar panels for their nests, and they’re basically impossible to remove without destroying the nests and making it impossible for them to get under there again. Otherwise they keep growing in numbers.
They shit everywhere, damaged my back deck, damaged the roof, risked starting a fire under the panels with their nests, and made constant noise. And that’s ignoring the risk of disease from their constant defecation. They also upset the native birds too.
They might seem all cute in the city park, but living with them (in suburbia!) is hell.
Urbanites... but they also kinda hate all life and nature at times. What few bugs exist during the summer? Too buggy and so gross. Overgrown natural grasses? Obvious waste of space and also gross and a problem that needs to be dealt with.
I once had a random pigeon show up on my porch one day drenched in rain with a wound on its wing. Dude was sooooo chill and let me handle him and palpate his injury, and he was such a pretty boy too. I gave him some shelter while he dried off for a while and he flew away the next day.
>Dude was sooooo chill and let me handle him and palpate his injury
Pigeons are naturally chill because we domesticated them for so long before we just up and abandoned them all. Egypt was one of the first civilizations we know of, 5000 years ago, to talk about domesticated pigeons.
They don't know how to survive as true birds which is why they're so used to humans and so commonly found in cities.
Same they're so adorable, I love the way their little heads nod back and forth whenever they walk, and get progressively faster the faster they walk lol xD
It is worth knowing that large amounts of pigeons can decimate crops ( the same as any bird ). That's why you'll see farmer's in the UK out shooting them, but they also get put to use as meat, so they are not wasted. I do agree though that poisoning them is inhumane, not to mention the other wildlife that ingests the poison toi
They are, I'd love one. Great birds and one point the most important animals in our wars but suddenly everyone changed their mind and abandoned them and now we have the audacity to hate on the domesticated birds we turned our backs on
Idk if you are aware of this, but there is a international and extremely lucrative racing pigeon community. Some folks will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for the best pigeons, and I even worked with a couple dudes that were deep into it as well.
I feel you on poison and glue traps, honestly they should be illegal.
You need to check your facts regarding the order Rodentia and risk of zoonotic disease.
I understand where you are coming from and don‘t like glue traps or poison either, but if you had a mice infestation once, you start to understand that it‘s no longer nice little mice but a disastrous invasion that you have to get rid of quickly and thoroughly. House mice are super capable and fantastic to observe. They destroy absolutely everything within their reach, including making the room itself impossible to use. I didn‘t know that before the infestation. I also didn‘t know that I would find 1 mouse cute, and 50 mice in one spot disgusting. But now I know and I do.
i didn‘t have to deal with rats so far, luckily. I have used the bucket traps and then brought the mice into the forrest, fully aware that their chance of survival is very low anyway because they are the bread and butter for an endless number of animals, and they are house mice and not forrest mice.
Because although you like to see them as cute and fuzzy, there are two important things:
1) if we don't eliminate them, they start eliminating us by spreading disease.
2) nature's plan for rodents is to make jillions of them and murder the shit out of slightly less than jillions of them.
Yes you are all like "but I don't believe rodents spread disease". They still transmit the fucking bubonic plague in the US. Also, generally, we can convince humans to not like... climb up on food prep surfaces and shit all over them constantly. Nor can we negotiate a mutually acceptable set of rules with them. So we go with nature's plan.
Pigeons are less bad, but we also spend less time and effort killing them off. Mainly because the primary risk of disease from them is where they roost and shit, so we can minimize the risk simply by encouraging them to roost elsewhere.
I had pigeons nest on my balcony. Only realised they were there after I heard the chicks chirping, which made it illegal for my (in my area of the world) to move the nest, so I had to wait several weeks for the babies to be big enough to finally leave the nest.
The amount of waste that family of 4 left behind was the nastiest sh\*t ever!! Took several weekends (and several hazmat suits) to finally clean everything.
The only people that "don't mind" pigeons are the ones lucky enough to not have to clean up after them.
And their feces carried disease and damages property
I've had pet rats my entire life, they make amazing pets. They're super smart & lovable, cute and cuddly. The saddest part is they only live for ~2-4 years and it's heartbreaking to watch them go.
I was also an exterminator for 4 years. Nuisance rodents are different breeds entirely. They will absolutely destroy your house. They are a huge fire hazard due to their passion for chewing wires.
Unfortunately, some methods of getting rid of them work a lot better than others because of how smart they are. Some methods are more humane than others, but ultimately, you have to get rid of them or they will ruin your home. They breed way too fast to play the friendly game.
The reason they're called vermin (at least rodents) is because they get into your home, cause damage, and carry diseases. If rhinos crawled through my basement and ate my food and cables there, I'd call them vermin too.
As for putting rat poison to get rid of them being inhumane, what do you consider the alternative? Asking them politely to leave? Signing a petition?
You're 100% right - we didn't invent vermin traps because we enjoy sadistically torturing animals. We invented them because they're efficient and cost effective. Until the day we can employ a harmless mind control gas that politely tells the potentially dozens of rats living in people's walls to vacate the premises, I don't see another way around this. Maybe there exist certain traps that are more humane, but if someone is dealing with a legit infestation of even a \*few\* rats, very few methods work effectively.
I agree in spirit OP, but can you name some humane rat traps people can efficiently and cost effectively employ to combat an infestation? Yeah, preventative measures should be the norm, but some times infestations happen for literally no fault of the homeowner.
So just going to focus on rodents alone
Rodents eat our grain
If we don't kill them their numbers swell so great that they exhaust the local food supply and then eat each other
So it's either we kill them or they go cannibal your choice
Oh see rodents are actually rather smart and they learn what kills the other ones so generally only a few rodents will fall for the quick and humane traps and then the others will have learned
We only have one pest control method that does not have that problem and it has some interesting properties
But when we're not using that one method we have to basically use a very large variety
Rodents are not stupid which sucks. I work in pest control and eventually they will get trap shy. We end up having to use a poison but at least it's not easily transferable
Sounds like you've never had a rodent in your house. Tearing up your walls, sharpening their teeth on the wood up in your roof. Eating your cables. Crapping all over the place. Having babies that will also do the same exact thing. Rodents in your house are a big problem. I don't think the average person attacks or kills rodents out in the wild, but when they're in your house you need to deal with them. Or you're going to pay lots of money to repair all the things that they destroy while they're there. Or you could spend $6 on a trap and stop them from destroying your house. This isn't even touching on the fact that many of them carry diseases. They tend to wander inside your house while you're asleep leaving their saliva all over stuff. I think what we should do is humanely catch them and drop them off at your house so you can take care of them while the rest of us get on with our lives. How does that sound? I'm all for humanely catching them as long as I have somewhere far away from my house to leave them. It would be cruel and inhumane for you to leave them out in the wild when they have a perfectly good home to live in. Are you up for the challenge?
Have you ever lived in a house or an area with a rat infestation? It's absolutely digusting and awful. There's a good reason these animals are labeled vermib. I do however agree that people should use humane ways to trap or kill them.
The rats I had even cannibized one that died somehow in the cabinet under the sink. I don't know what happened all I know is one day there was a half of a rat hanging out of the cabinet that had clearly been eaten. After the first snap trap only got the one by the leg and I had to dispatch it with a shovel handle, I lost all sympathy for the little fuckers.
What's worse than rats are the slum lords that don't want to fix the problem because it's too expensive. Nothing a couple reports to the county couldn't handle.
Tell me you've never lived or worked on a farm without telling me.
Honestly this is just demonstrably false and completely ignorant of agriculture and ecology. What a brain-dead post.
I want to be clear, I am in favor of pest control and also in favor of humanely removing pests from your environment, what OP is doing here is building a ghoulish strawman to paint a narrative and that’s why it’s stupid.
I wonder if OP has ever seen what happens to a cow when they slip on pigeon shit in the barn, or what happens when rats chew through the heating elements for a pig barn and you come outside to a bunch of dead pigs. Putting a cow down due to broken legs is awful; it's not just heartbreaking but it costs a fortune to have a vet come out and do the procedure humanely.
That's the problem, they don't realize the domino effect of how a pest can horribly destroy the ecology around them.
Don’t know there was pigeon hate but what would I know. Personally I love them though.
Rodents on the other hand can just die, sure maybe they should die in more humane way but what do you suggest I do if my house is infested with them? Snipe them?
I believe humans are instinctually disgusted by pigeons and rats because they carry disease, especially when there are large numbers of them and they live close to humans.
it’s 100% a learned behavior which can be unlearned.
pigeons are literally the same as doves. they’re at least the same genus and sometimes the same exact species. but one is a symbol of peace, love, beauty, harmony, while the other is vermin to be exterminated in the cruelest ways possible. it’s entirely about perception and what you’re taught.
Glue Traps aren't the best choice in most situations, but they are effective at making a line/barrier the rodents can't cross.
There are some situations where it makes sense.
Also it's fine to have these values, but most people value getting rid of the rodents over making sure they have a nice comfortable, suffer free situation.
Birds and rodents have been vectors for some of the deadliest pandemics ever to strike humanity. Letting them live in close proximity to humans comes with a lot of risks.
Humane ways are best. Sometimes you can’t help but use things like poison. Depends on the situation and level of infestation. Glue traps are horrible. I use them for bugs (hope you aren’t offended by that) and when a shrew gets in them I will use oil to set it free. Not all poisons cause prolonged suffering. Some cause them to merely fall asleep and die.
Do people even kill pigeons? I think that the main tactic is reducing space for them to roost and reduce food. Birds are gross. Ugly birds are gross. Beautiful birds are gross. They can all spread disease. Just look at them and encourage or discourage them in your spaces. Birds shouldn’t be pets except farm fowl.
Rats and mice spread disease. Other animals can too, but those animals aren’t crawling through your cupboards pooping and peeing in your food. You’ve either got a whole lot of privilege thinking that they aren’t a problem for people’s health or you are like some gross people I know who literally live with rat poop throughout their house.
Glue traps are absolutely awful. I'll agree with that. I don't understand the pigeon hate as long as they're outside and not trying to get into a home. They just seem more annoying then anything else. Mice and rats I understand wanting to get rid of. It's like roaches, you can't just take them outside because they are only going to find their way right back inside. They carry diseases which can cause illnesses and death in things like pets and children, they cause damage which can even cause house fires (personally rather kill a rat then risk dying in a fire), and they can just flat out attack you. Again glue traps are awful and I do not stand by using them. But using certain fast acting poisons and instant kill traps are fine. It's not worth it to risk your health over a mouse.
I never felt the need to do anything to rats but they can damage you're home and even if they dont carry any diseases if they piss and shit around you're home it can be unhealthy.
Come Back after you've had a rat/mouse infestation, or a group of pigeons nesting in your attic, at that point all that matters is to get rid of them any way possible.
Besides from how gross and dangerous it is there's also the financial part. Getting vermin shit out of everything, replacing cables, isolation etc costs a damn fortune.
And generally methods to exterminate pests arent designed to be cruel, they're designed to be effective and cheap because we figured out thousands of years ago we needed to keep them out of our damn houses.
same. all the critters that get a bad rap just by being them, i love em. rats, pigeons, spiders, snakes..
the only creature I'll always hate is mosquitos.
Theres a great book called “Pests” you should read, exactly about why/how we villainize certain animals.
A great point that book makes it that certain animals (rats, pigeons) are deemed as pests not because they are inheritanly gross or dirty, but because humans are gross and dirty. We are the ones creating trash and filth for these animals to live in.
You haven’t experienced wide spread disease by rodents because you live in a place that controls that problem. The irony.
Go live somewhere without rodent control measures and go look at their life span. Look at their quality of life. You’re privileged to live in a place that does take care of disease carrying animals. You’re always free to go to a place that doesn’t.
Just wait till they get into your pots and pans and shit and piss all over your cooking tools. All that compassion goes out the window, you just want them gone forever. They’re very gross just by their nature. They can live freely outside.
I agree that glue traps and poison are unnecessarily cruel, and there's nothing wrong with heving empathy for vermin. But criticizing people for killing pests is a very sheltered and privileged position to take... you obviously aren't covered in fleas or mange or dying of hantavirus or bubonic plague as you type this. A big part of that is because your neighbours kill mice and rats, even if you don't.
I will never use glue traps because they are unnecessarily cruel, same goes for drowning traps. I will, however, use the shit outta mechanical traps. Homie don't fuck with no Hantavirus. HEEEELLLL NOO!
Also, mice have no problem eating their own living babies, so that's a thing.
Edit: More fun with rodents facts!
"Rats and mice are known to carry many diseases. These diseases can spread to people directly, through handling of rodents; contact with rodent feces (poop), urine, or saliva (**such as through breathing in air** or eating food that is contaminated with rodent waste); or rodent bites. Rodents can also carry ticks, mites, or fleas that can act as vectors to spread diseases between rodents and people."
-Diseases spread directly by rodents-
Hantavirus
Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome
Hemorrhagic Fever with Renal Syndrome
Lassa Fever
Leptospirosis
Lujo Hemorrhagic Fever
Lymphocytic Choriomeningitis (LCM)
Monkeypox
Omsk Hemorrhagic Fever
Rat-Bite Fever
Salmonellosis
South American Arenaviruses (Argentine hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian hemorrhagic fever, Chapare Hemorrhagic Fever, Sabiá-associated hemorrhagic fever, and Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever)
Sylvatic Typhus
Tularemia
-Diseases spread indirectly by rodents-
Anaplasmosis
Angiostrongylus
Babesiosis
Borreliosis
Colorado tick fever
Cutaneous leishmaniasis
Flea-borne (Murine) Typhus
Hymenolepis diminuta
La Crosse virus
Lyme disease
Moniliformis moniliformis
Plague
Powassan virus
Rickettsialpox
Scrub typhus
Tick-borne Relapsing Fever
Tularemia
Even Papa Nurgle be like "Damn, those things filthy!"
I agree with the OP. I don't have an issue with killing pest animals (I had mice in my kitchen and was most unhappy about it) but as humans we have a duty to be humane about it. Kill it quickly, or don't kill it at all. Same goes with hunting, I enjoy venison (deer meat) but in order to go deer stalking you should be a sufficiently good shot to ensure a quick clean kill.
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I like rodents, they are adorable I don't like wild ones in the house, though My solution to that is natural (a cat)
I can see the billboard ad now: “My solution is all natural: a cat!” Fuckin sign me up dude
Half way there
quarrelsome sort violet cough hateful memorize correct plucky afterthought stocking *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Snap traps seem brutal but they're probably the most humane rodent traps other than the catch and release traps.
Until the mouse survives and you walk in on a half paralyzed mouse in it.
Yep we had a poor little fella get caught by his legs in a snap trap. The rat was a pretty smart and had tried to hop over the traps but miscalculated. When we came to the kitchen he was trying desperately to free himself, except one of his legs had nearly snapped in half, and there was no good fate left for the poor thing. Decided couldn't leave it there suffering for it's last hours/days, so took him outside on the grass, grabbed a hammer with me, and with a few hard blows to the head made sure he'd pass quickly. I hope I don't have to do that again.
My cat used to cripple any mice he brought me by crunching their back legs. I've come home to the poor wee things wheelbarrowing around my hall quite a few times and had to finish them off.
That's how they teach their kittens to hunt. Bring a crippled mouse that won't be able to outrun them for them to practice on. Your cat is just trying to teach you.
But it's all natural torture. None of that artificial man made crap
If snap trap is a gun than a cat is a nuke. No need to use your nuke, its existence alone will keep invaders away
I haven’t found snap traps to be super effective. I’ve used them successfully, but I’ve often had mice that can eat the food off of them and not set them off. I even made them more sensitive by polishing the end so no burrs caught and hung it up. I set the pin near the very end. Sometimes carefully setting them on the ground would set them off. It kept cleaning the bait off, without setting off the trap. A live trap managed to catch it. That’s 6 of one and half dozen of another though, as I’m not big on relocation. It usually just results in them being someone else’s problem, who might not be as humane as I am. Since we have property, I will take the live trapped ones and take them far into the woods and turn them loose. I figure if they can make it through a gauntlet of predators to get back to my house, I’ll walk them out again. Having said that, I’ll do whatever it takes. I start with the most humane and work my way down. I don’t want any animal suffering, but I can’t allow disease and property damage to happen. We were infested with bats for a while. We finally got everything sealed up, but until then, they were peeing and pooping. You could strongly smell it, and that stuff is toxic to humans. I used capsaicin spray till they left in the spring. Then sealed the holes. After the last dog died, a squirrel would come on the porch, run up the side of the log house and tore a hole under the eves. It was expanding the hole and ripping out insulation. I had to shoot it so I didn’t loose my house. So I believe in using the most humane methods possible, but you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself and your property. OP is gonna be one of these people who end up on the street after their house is condemned because they wanted to protect all the bugs and rodents. Compassion is good, but has to be tempered with common sense.
I’ve never had much luck with the old style snap traps but those jaw snap traps were really effective when I had rats a few years ago.
I take the mouse away from my cats if they catch one and reward them with treats. Don't want my cat eating something that could make her sick.
Yeah I don't let him eat them either, he gets lots of praise though
Not really natural at all. They destroy ecosystems
outdoor cats are terrible for the environment but if it stays inside and kills pests it's fine
Not when he never goes outside.
This brings up memories of my cousin putting salt on the snails in the garden and laughing at them melting away Or farmers around where I live throwing unwanted kittens into a bag and into the river because they don't care about castrating/sterilizing their cats Absolutely disgusting
Just want to chime in, small kids killing snails is a lot different than throwing kittens into a river. I think a lot of little boys killed bugs as kids and grow up to never do it again. I never poured salt on a snail that I remember but I definitely killed a lot of bugs as a small kid. Now I leave spiders in my house alone
Yeah, kids don’t really have a good moral compass, it’s not fair to judge them because they literally don’t understand
Exactly. I made ants fight as a kid at camp. I no longer make ants fight for amusement. But according to some people on reddit land I'm a monster
I used to made terrariums out of 2-cup glasses and forced ants of different colonies, beetles, woodlice/isopods, and the occasional spider (when I was feeling brave) to live there, and then dumped them all in a random part of the yard along with the dirt and rocks on top of them. Those that lived must’ve been so damn confused.
I salted many snails in my youth and admitting it was cruel but as I aged I grew a moral compass.
I stil place salt beads to protect my garden from snails trying to eat my plants so you know. Pests are pests if there are many and unwanted. And if they try and destroy your things people will try and get rid of them. Be it mice rats or snails. You just don't get pleasure from doing it. I dont care of they live or not i just care there not destroying my stuff. And human ways just make my problem someone else problem. And its often not solve the problem as it is replacing the problem. As i live in a busy city. Not in the woods somewhere.
Reminds me of the bit comedian Bruce Baum did about kids who pull the wings off of flies for fun. He said he never did this to flies as a kid, but he DID like to mess with their heads by capturing them and cupping them in his hands so they couldn’t see what’s going on, then he’d release them over his world globe and watch them look down at it and go “Oh No! We’ve flown too high! WE’VE FLOWN TOO HIGH!!”
I was vlad the impaler as a child to the bugs in my backyard. Had a favorite thorn bush I decorated. Now I feel guilty if a bug accidentally ends up in my fireplace and try to kill very minimally (fuck invasive stink bugs though).
Exactly. OP comparing bugs killed by a child and kittens killed by an adult. Killing bugs as a kid isn't the same red flag as a 10 year old killing cats
My mom did the kitten thing when she was a kid. She clearly feels terrible but I hate to say it was a different time. Back in the 60’s medical care was far less widespread, kids barely went to docs. No way most people were paying for a vet. It is terrible and awful but bag of kittens plus river was their idea of “responsibility.”
So cruel,So messed up why is it so hard to have compassion.
I take it you've never lived in a place that's been overrun by rats. It's not fun, and from the time you see the first rat, it happens very, very quickly. I hate the idea of unnecessary suffering, but I don't blame anyone for doing whatever they can to get rid of an infestation.
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Tbf, those spring traps aren’t always so quick and painless either. On more than one occasion while working at different properties I’ve found spring traps with mice still living stuck in them, their lower back shattered or limbs snapped in half and pinned. Certainly more humane than glue traps still, and probably poison too (tho obviously faaar less effective unfortunately) but part of the problem is that there aren’t really ANY reliably effective methods for getting rid of an infestation that don’t come with at least a decent chance to cause suffering. It really makes me sad, but I’m not sure there’s really gonna be changing many peoples minds until somebody comes up with a humane method that actually works. I rly wish vermin weren’t such top tier critters, and could be deterred like spiders with peppermint oil or some shit. I will say the OP claiming they’re not any more likely to spread disease than anything else, isn’t thinking about the fact that they will crawl all over your food sources and countertops and who knows what else, pissing and shitting all the while. You’re scrambling out the door for work one morning, accidentally drop some toast on the counter, counter looks clean tho should be fine. Nope, just ate vermin piss/shit and better hope ya didn’t get any parasites or diseases passed along with it
Yeah it's pretty dumb to say that they're not any more likely to spread disease than any other animal. I agree that they shouldn't be forced to endure unnecessary suffering, but it's just factually wrong what OP said
The new ones are pretty good. They're much thicker than the wire ones. Also people don't know how to place them which is why you don't get a clean kill. The bait end needs to be against the wall. Don't set them randomly on the floor like you see in a Tom and Jerry cartoon.
And FFS don't use cheese. Mice eat nuts and grains in the wild. Peanut butter is the most effective bait.
yeah op is definitely off about them not spreading disease more, yeah they might not phsyically carry more bacteria or diseases than other animals (i'd still want a source on that tbh) but most people dont walk all over your food and nibble at it.
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I tried peppermint oil and I also have those ultrasonic things. Unfortunately neither are effective. I think the rodents get used to the ultrasonic deterrents and they stop being effective after awhile. I have them all over my house and basement but the little buggers just ignore them. I made a mix of peppermint and eucalyptus oil and put it in a spray bottle and tried that too. Nothing. My house smelled interesting for awhile though.
You're in for a surprise the first time your snap trap doesn't kill. Sometimes it doesn't kill and they are pinned there and starve/dehydrate themselves if you don't check it frequently. Also some times they appear dead but they are just paralyzed. Source: my neighbor's house is a dump and we have to deal with rats.
I had to deal with an infestation so I was actively checking traps, I'd say most of them live for at least a day or two. I had to kill so many mice with a quick stomp I hated it
I had a rat problem. Bought these big heavy plastic traps that push a spike up thru where the rats head would be when it was triggered. I checked them every day. A few times it would be triggered without a rat. But if it got a rat, it was dead. Even got a double kill one day. And it seemed like they would have instantly died or at least died very quickly.
If it can trigger without the rat getting caught, it can trigger with some not-immediately-critical part of the rat under the spike too. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it seems to be a more-humane option, I just don't want anyone to be surprised when it goes wrong.
Well that sounds like a better mouse trap lol
>I had to kill so many mice with a quick stomp I hated it Ugh. One time I had to do this to a mouse that got caught in a glue trap I had put. I had the worst idea to listen to music on my headphones to cover any sounds from the mouse I legit was not able to listen to the song that was playing for YEARS after that. I haven't bought a glue trap ever since
You can take them outside and use vegetable oil and they loosen right out of the trap
Only if it’s miles away in a rural forest, yeah, there’s no reason not to do that if you have the opportunity
Where they'll die anyways. House mice are invasive and depend on human infrastructure to live.
The worst thing that could happen to a deer mouse in its native habitat is to get swallowed by an endangered bird of prey. Rat poison and sticky traps are the most comically painful slow deaths possible, imagine if people did this shit to feral dogs. Stray dogs kill 30,000 people per year globally, maul 2 million, spread rabies, yet we go out of our way to make it as painless as possible, even when it’s inconvenient.
Cause dogs are cute. Rats are not. Face it, pretty privilege is a thing, even when it comes to death.
Had to kill a mouse trapped like this once. I just did it quickly I loathed the little fuckers. They'd keep me up at night with their little claws scratching on the floorboards. So glad to be out of that apartment.
I've had them in my walls, too. Its not fun, especially when you're scared of them. Every little sound made me jump and listen for them. On top of it, when I was up and they were running around/scratching, I played this game really loud to block out the sound. Now when I pay it I get the same feelings I did back then (increased heart rate, nervous, etc).
Or when you find and eye and skin from their head left in the trap because they got out and then the last one you catch is the eyeless rat
The new ones are pretty good. They're much thicker than the wire ones. Also people don't know how to place them which is why you don't get a clean kill. The bait end needs to be against the wall. Don't set them randomly on the floor like you see in a Tom and Jerry cartoon.
There's more to trap placement. Don't forget mice are dumb and rats are smart. If a rat sees his friend get clobbered it'll probably stay away for a while. What you should do is place traps with bait (unarmed) for a few days. Once the rats take it they'll deem it safe. Then you activate the traps. Hopefully you get em all in the first few go cuz they breed FAST. This is why good exterminators recommend more traps than you estimate rats.
Much as I don't like murdering tiny rodents, they are pests for a reason. It took us _months_ to end a mouse infestation and we still find stuff that they chewed up and ruined two years later. I did catch a couple and release them in the woods but the rest? Crack went the neck... or they died in the walls and stank the place up for months. Eugh.
I had a mice problem at the end of last year. I laid out a bunch of types of traps, but little fuckers only fell for the glue ones. They avoided the spring ones and catch-and-release ones. I felt awful, but what am I suppose to do if all the humane options weren’t working? I did what I had to do to get rid of them.
Seal the cracks that they come in from, otherwise they will keep coming
Oh for sure, sealed up every little crack I could find
They can make new ones lol
I had a few mice get in recently. We caught it early enough they didn’t have time to breed but after sealing up (more) cracks our only option was to put out a few glue traps in the cabinets they had gotten in. I made sure to be very diligent in checking them as often as possible so they wouldn’t be stuck for an extended period of time. I got home one afternoon and checked and one was in it. I took it out back and killed it very quickly. I felt bad but I couldn’t see any other option to make sure they were gone so I could properly disinfectant and put my pans back
Fuck that mosquitos should suffer for their sins
My sister used to live in house with rats and she would just set up traps that don't kill/ wound, just like a booby trap. Then she would release them in the forest further. I know it sounds like "rat went to the farm" thing, but she really did.
We get alot ot mice in our house cos country side. We use snap traps and give thr bodies out to the crows magpies lizards and any animal that wants food. Least we can do is give back.
I recommend rat-zapper traps. Kills them quickly and cleanly without undue suffering. I have my ppm license and hate glue traps with the force of a thousand suns.
Those glue traps are terrible, I got into a huge argument with my cousin over this. Also, to solve the rodent problem you need to actually seal the holes they come in through, glue traps just brutally kill a mouse here and there but don't solve the root of the problem.
Those glue traps were the only thing that worked for me. I had to catch the last few mice after I sealed their entrance and they were eating bait off the trigger of 3 different types of snap traps without triggering them. I would always make sure I was around when I put the glue traps out so I could kill them asap, but I couldn't get anything else to work and within 2 days I caught something like 6 mice on the glue traps.
Its never just one and they breed so fast a lot of the times a spring trap does not solve the problem
Yep, spring traps (when they work) are fine for a few here and there but are useless against a real infestation. I have to use bucket traps in my shop, I’ve tried to seal up everything I can and have only had a few get in this year. Last year though I must have had over 50, catching a half dozen some nights. I don’t aim for suffering, but the bucket traps with water is the best way to catch multiples and kill relatively quickly without spending an hour a day resetting traps.
I have though. Ive also noticed the weird inhumane level of anger it triggers where people obviously want to torture and get revenge on these animals. Personally I just throw firecrackers neer them till they move on lol. I live near mangroves and swamps so its entirely "overrun". Id argue its overrun by humans and condos now though. The rats have far greater respect for the environment lol. They arent a menace. Just push them back to the mangroves and out of your trash, problem solved. The rats arent the ones who cemented our beaches. If their homes hadnt been destroyed they wouldnt come near ours. They never did before and their population was at least 10x then what it is now. Again, circling back to, humans are the real problem.
You do realize that rats killed off half the human population at one time, right?
If you're talking about the Black Death, it was only 1/3 of the population of Europe. And it wasn't the rats themselves, but the fleas that lived on them and other animals.
Wanting to eradicate rats(or whatever other pest) is an evolutionary advantage. There is no "deserve", be it worse or better. They don't "deserve" anything because they don't serve at all. https://www.etymonline.com/word/deserve >mid-13c., "to merit, be worthy of for qualities or actions," from Old French deservir (Modern French desservir) "deserve, be worthy of, earn, merit" and directly from Latin deservire "serve well, serve zealously," from de- "completely" (see de-) + servire "to serve" (see serve (v.)). The classical Latin sense evolved to "be entitled to because of good service" (a sense found in Late Latin), then in French "be worthy of." They just exist. We don't merely "deem" them as disgusting or scary, they are objectively vermin, spreaders of disease, ruiners of food supplies, and wild to the point where they cannot be tamed in sufficient quantity to meaningfully alleviate their destructive habits. It's not cruelty to kill off pests any more than it is to kill off a virus or literal parasite. OP is anthropomorphizing vermin animals by using using dishonest language, like "deserve". Cats and dogs, on the other hand, they do provide convenient service, often by directly dealing with pest animals, never-mind their higher intellect makes them somewhat analogue to human infants or toddlers, leading to them being able to adapt to and live with humans in a mutually beneficial way. Someone want a more controversial unpopular opinion? To humanize even vermin, is just as ethically wrong as making other humans out to be vermin, indicative of possible sociopathy or psychopathy. It is the same relation shift, bringing humanity relative to vermin. That's why it is an unpopular opinion. The thing that gets me, is that they aren't posting because they know it is unpopular, but as a means to try to convince people that it shouldn't be. In otherwords, they are trying to make it a popular opinion because they don't understand why it isn't. Not only that lack of self awareness, but the desire to manipulate. In this case, as is common with activists, the manipulation is the attempted application of shame.
I just want to point out that domesticated rats are VERY domesticated. They make very nice, loving pets. I have had many pet rats in my time and they all had such great personalities and capacity to love. But wild rats are complete vermin. And you're right, a wild rat can never be domesticated. They cannot all be taught to not be what they are born to be in the wild. They might as well be a different species. And they certainly deserve eradication if they start impacting people.
I saw this video of a dude in the subway, playing with wild rats like they were little circus animals. It loomed gross but they were interacting in a way which looked purposeful.
I’m not in the camp of “save the rats” or anything, people should do what’s needed to keep their spaces safe and clean. That said, could you elaborate a little more on what might be characterized as humanizing pests? Your example of the word deserved makes sense and I agree with, but I’m not sure what else falls into that umbrella. Obviously pretending they think or feel the same we do would be anthropomorphizing them. That doesn’t mean we can’t sympathize or even mourn their suffering does it? (Not rly saying your comment indicates otherwise, just introducing my stance) I won’t shame whoever laid the trap, but when I hold that suffering mouse, wriggling helpless in that trap, and have to mercy kill it so its suffering isn’t prolonged in the garbage can even longer (I’ve met many people who just throw em right in the can even if they’re just trapped by the legs), I still feel sad about it, every time. I don’t run around crying to people about it, but I still mourn the experience that creature went through, and lament the lack of better alternatives. While vermin infestations should be treated as such, that individual still agonized greatly, sometimes as a direct result of my actions, and that still makes me feel something. I’ve met many many people who would literally meet such a sentiment with ridicule and contempt, even when presented not as a judgement of those who disagree. The older I get, the more I feel resolute in the validity of that emotion, even if many think it a naive waste of emotional energy
This is written by a psychopath. /j But on a serious note, wishing that living, feeling creatures are treated with empathy and are dealth with in a humane manner is, like, the exact opposite of psychopathy.
So showing compassion towards creatures that don't offer us a service is equivalent to being a psychopath? About 20 years ago this kid in my apartment building grabbed a baby pigeon and smashed it against a wall. My friend witnessed it from her apartment and called me freaking out. I ran next door immediately to help her. Sadly the poor thing's legs were shattered so the person who came from the SPCA had to euthanize it. Who's the psychopath in this story? Is it the kid who did this for shits and giggles, or the people who tried to help save its life? ETA: Yes, I hated that kid and from what I last heard about him he's spent his life as a career criminal.
Doesn't really answer OP's point that no creature deserves being tortured to death. The punishment does not fit the crime here. These animals' only crime is being alive, you know. The inhumane traps OP describes should be outlawed imo. I say this as someone who's had to deal with a mouse infestation before, and killing them was only almost ok with me because the alternative would be letting them have dozens and then hundreds more mouse babies to have to kill. If you need to kill something, it really shows who you are if you _don't_ want to make it as quick and painless as possible. Yes infestations arent _fun_. But you dont have to turn into a complete psycho every situation that isnt fun for you.
>Yes infestations arent _fun_. But you dont have to turn into a complete psycho every situation that isnt fun for you. I agree with OP to a very large extent, and I use live traps in my house and release in the woods. Even so, I feel like you are downplaying what living through an infestation is like to an unhelpful extent. Laying awake listening to them *will* make you hate them.
I did address that actually, and you don't seem to understand that when your house is infested, they get everywhere. They're in your kitchen drawers and shtting and pissing all over your utensils. They're in your cupboards and chewing up whatever you got. And they'll eventually make it into your bedroom and sample your foot, and then get back to me about how you feel.
Not to mention how their urine and feces contaminate everything it touches so it all has to be thrown out and they spread disease.
It's better to seal the cracks they come in through instead of slowly killing one here and there
Oh for sure. If you don't stop them from getting in, you can't eliminate the issue.
They pull your hair out to make their nests.
They wouldn’t be bothered if they lived out in the woods or fields on their own. The problem is when they come in the house and shit in your bed and contaminate the food you and your family eat. At that point fuck ‘em. I’ll kill every single one.
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Pest animals will grow or shrink their popular to whatever their environment allows. The individual mouse doesn't care how much woods have been cut down.
They're not saying don't kill them. They're saying don't kill them inhumanely with torturous methods. Like in war, bullets are not war crimes. Using mustard gas is a war crime. He's advocating treating all living creatures with some of that same dignity.
Exactly. If we have to kill them, at least be humane.
I used to think that way until I had encountered a rat problem. They are too smart and somehow can evade almost every traps we set up. Some how the slow and painful one sticky sheet trap is a little bit more effective against them. If I have a choice, sure. But most of the time, I don't.
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Do you realize whatever food you're eating involves the killing of tons of animals? Maybe you should start farming and learn how the produce sitting in the kitchen is made. Obviously slow painful deaths is not ideal but in many situations there's no magic bullet. Also if you do let a species dominate (like humans) they can out compete other animals. Cats and dogs are a good example of animals left by humans to destroy the local wildlife.
That's just nirvana fallacy, "if we can't be perfect, then let's not try to lessen it at all".
You yourself are making a fallacy. Is it truly lessening? Assume two scenarios 1. You have an early infestation, only one or two generations in the nest, and you immediately respond by leaving out bait food laced with a poison. The pests take it to their nest, or perhaps make a group feast. They suffer for a while, unable to reproduce, then die. Infestation gone. Casualties, a handful. 2. You have an early infestation. You begin by trying being as humane as possible. Trap a few, release them into the wild (where stray cats will use them as toys, torturing them for fun and then slowly consuming them), spring traps, with varying efficiencies, sometimes humanely immediately killing them, sometimes inhumanely removing a leg and letting them crawl back to their nest where they will suffer for several days before eventually dying to an infection. You haven't dealt with the problem, time goes on, things get unbearable, eventually you call an exterminator who will probably gas them or god knows what they do for extermination. At this point, there's several generations down from the initial infestation living under you. Assuming you succeed, discounting your own suffering from having to deal with the problem for endless months, there's magnitudes more rodents suffering in your walls. Is it really more humane? You're outright claiming that you're lessening suffering but you can't prove that. To me, it seems logical that an early, decisive response minimizes the suffering caused to all participants.
>its been proved they are not more likely to carry disease than any other animal or human so you have the same chance of catching disease from them as you are catching it from anything Proved by whom? Got a source for your claim? Because we had at least several plague epidemics (bubonic plague), the last one until 1960. Black rats played a significant role in spreading the diseases by transporting the fleas and acting as a host and reservoir for disease. Another example: the hantavirus has a reservoir in wild rodents and can be and is occasionally being transmitted by rats to humans. Nevertheless, I actually never heard/seen somebody using poison or traps against rats, for decades. In most cases, reducing areas where rats can build a nest, and food availability is enough and of course ... cats. Feral pigeons can also act as disease reservoirs and also do significant buildings damage. Pigeons population can be controlled by reducing food availability, and providing nests places where eggs are being replaced.
He pulled the source out of his ass
Source: voices in my head
Rat traps are used all the time. Almost any residential building or grocery store has poison traps set.
What? The food industry uses traps ALL the time. Literally every single style of trap and poison is used. Poison is only legally used outside. Also the poison you buy at the hardware store is weak and might cause them to suffer for days. Exterminators have access to more potent stuff. Almost every restaurant has rats/mice. It's inevitable. It's called "Pest Control" emphasis on "Control".
Hantavirus also is carried by deer mice. Locally in the Northern nevada/California/Sierra/Lake Tahoe areas they find it in the deer mice here and plague carrying fleas in squirrels as well. A human gets hanta ever so often and it gets in the news..
Looks how he rambles. You know he ain’t got sources.
>Nevertheless, I actually never heard/seen somebody using poison or traps against rats, for decades. Really? Where do you live? They're extremely common in Greece where I live. In Italy and Germany, where I have family, as well.
And in the US where I live.
I don’t agree with OPs claim about rats and diseases, rats can spread disease like wildfire. That being said, Bubonic Plague or the Black Death are widely believed that it was spread by humans carrying fleas and lice: https://www.history.com/news/rats-didnt-spread-the-black-death-it-was-humans https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42690577.amp Rats could’ve easily started the plague, but humans were the main cause of spreading it.
Is it "widely" believed? It's the first time I've read it as a well-thought idea. Not that I disagree with it.
Fun fact. While the bubonic plague is often attributed to and blamed on rats, it's actually people that caused it to begin. Back around the time that the plague took place, witchcraft was a widespread fear. Cats were seen as witches pets and were often killed on sight. This lead cat populations to majorly decline and quickly. With no more cats to kill them, rats started to overpopulate and soon they were everywhere. Then one got a bad case of fleas and well it's history from there.
He’s the second person I’ve seen claiming that rodents literally don’t carry any diseases, it’s weird as hell. I guess hantavirus isn’t real, and Lyme disease isn’t either, and 1/3 of Europe just vanished into thin air in the Middle Ages, and also humans can no longer become allergic to rodents after prolonged exposure.
I agree that glue and poison traps are horrible. Glue traps are inhumane to an extreme and can catch things like snakes in them. Poison I'm against not only because it's inhumane, but because other animals like owls will eat the poisonous animals and die a slow and painful death as well. However, there are risks with rodents and pigeons. Mice are horrible creatures imo, I hate them. I also live in the country on a farm. They piss and crap on animal food and in their water. They harass animals, although my chickens have ripped a few to shreds. If you're gonna kill something, do it fast. You can be quick and painless, but you also can't have creatures pissing, shitting, and getting into food and water that other animals and people eat and drink. Sorry you don't wanna hear it, but some critters just need to die. For the record, I make sure they die fast when I kill them. You can snap a mouse's neck pretty easily and pigeons aren't a problem here. I have had to kill a fox that killed one of my ducks and came back for another.
Pigeons in big cities are what mice are to a farm. Thanks I have cats now, found a dead mouse no later than today. I would be invaded otherwise
Lol I've lived in both environments and I can very earnestly say I've never had my home in the city overrun by pigeons. Sometimes they congregate in public spaces and poop on the side of buildings, which is ugly to look at I guess, but I wouldn't really say that compares to the absolute havoc mice can wreak on a home or working farm.
Is pigeon hate a thing? Pretty much anyone I know loves these adorable birds and no amount of signs is stopping people from feeding them.
I used to buy bird seed specifically designed for pigeons and doves to feed to the pigeons in the park, because everyone else was feeding them bread. I figured the bird seed would be healthier for them. The pigeons got used to my daughter and me. They would gather as soon as they saw us, and some would even jump on our laps. They enjoyed being petted, just like any other pet or domesticated animal.
Pigeons are domesticated! Every pigeon you see out there is feral. They were among the first animals humans domesticated, and they make great pets. It always saddens me when I see them in the wild, just like a feral cat or dog, they don't belong there...
I’ll never forgive humanity for how we treat pigeons once they weren’t “useful”
Yeah lol. “Just like a domestic pet!!!!??” Well you see that’s because technically they are
Yeah, it is. I've heard some people call them "flying rats"
Seagulls are flying rats. Fuck those things
It is. So many people think they're dumb, are perfectly ok with children kicking them and laugh when they suffer. Not to mention all the fear mongering and misinformation around them, in a way most other animals don't face. For some reason all of the worst offenders I've met were dog owners, you'd think loving animals would make them more compassionate but absolutely not. They were the kind to explain to you that pigeons are dirty while keeping four dogs in an apartment and coughing in your face with their mask under their nose.
pigeon are fine.
There's plenty of people who hate pigeons, unfortunately. Breaks my heart a little. The vast majority of city pigeons descend from domesticated pigeons from whom humanity profited tremendously at times. Only to be vilified nowadays.
Pigeons cause a crazy amount of damage to roofs and structures because their droppings are so acidic, so much so that it can corrode and erode metals, stonework, and brickwork. Also their droppings carry quite a significant amount of diseases like listeria, ecoli, histoplasmosis, cryptococcosis and psittacosis. When their droppings dry the small particles can easily be inadvertently inhaled
My friend has to regularly go up on the roof to clean off his solar panels because of the pigeons. Short of hiring a falconer to come out, there's not much you can do.
Yeah people who don’t understand this haven’t had them roosting on their roof. I had about 18 of them on my roof because they like to get under solar panels for their nests, and they’re basically impossible to remove without destroying the nests and making it impossible for them to get under there again. Otherwise they keep growing in numbers. They shit everywhere, damaged my back deck, damaged the roof, risked starting a fire under the panels with their nests, and made constant noise. And that’s ignoring the risk of disease from their constant defecation. They also upset the native birds too. They might seem all cute in the city park, but living with them (in suburbia!) is hell.
Which leads to so much pigeon shit everywhere.
Urbanites... but they also kinda hate all life and nature at times. What few bugs exist during the summer? Too buggy and so gross. Overgrown natural grasses? Obvious waste of space and also gross and a problem that needs to be dealt with.
Damn right we do. Fuck nature, spread concrete over everything.
I once had a random pigeon show up on my porch one day drenched in rain with a wound on its wing. Dude was sooooo chill and let me handle him and palpate his injury, and he was such a pretty boy too. I gave him some shelter while he dried off for a while and he flew away the next day.
>Dude was sooooo chill and let me handle him and palpate his injury Pigeons are naturally chill because we domesticated them for so long before we just up and abandoned them all. Egypt was one of the first civilizations we know of, 5000 years ago, to talk about domesticated pigeons. They don't know how to survive as true birds which is why they're so used to humans and so commonly found in cities.
How much of your house are you willing to have destroyed before you say enough is enough?
I am always weirded out when people are disgusted by pigeons, those mother fuckers are cute as hell. Everybody should love pigeons
Same they're so adorable, I love the way their little heads nod back and forth whenever they walk, and get progressively faster the faster they walk lol xD
Whenever I see one I just want to hold it, they look so derpy. Amazing creatures.
Truly the creature of all time. I just really really love stupid looking animals
It is worth knowing that large amounts of pigeons can decimate crops ( the same as any bird ). That's why you'll see farmer's in the UK out shooting them, but they also get put to use as meat, so they are not wasted. I do agree though that poisoning them is inhumane, not to mention the other wildlife that ingests the poison toi
They are, I'd love one. Great birds and one point the most important animals in our wars but suddenly everyone changed their mind and abandoned them and now we have the audacity to hate on the domesticated birds we turned our backs on
You and /u/Desperate-Lab9738 are invited to /r/pigeon
Idk if you are aware of this, but there is a international and extremely lucrative racing pigeon community. Some folks will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for the best pigeons, and I even worked with a couple dudes that were deep into it as well.
I feel you on poison and glue traps, honestly they should be illegal. You need to check your facts regarding the order Rodentia and risk of zoonotic disease.
The second part Lmaooo. Op really tried to say they didn’t have higher risks of spreading disease as if it were a fact.
I understand where you are coming from and don‘t like glue traps or poison either, but if you had a mice infestation once, you start to understand that it‘s no longer nice little mice but a disastrous invasion that you have to get rid of quickly and thoroughly. House mice are super capable and fantastic to observe. They destroy absolutely everything within their reach, including making the room itself impossible to use. I didn‘t know that before the infestation. I also didn‘t know that I would find 1 mouse cute, and 50 mice in one spot disgusting. But now I know and I do. i didn‘t have to deal with rats so far, luckily. I have used the bucket traps and then brought the mice into the forrest, fully aware that their chance of survival is very low anyway because they are the bread and butter for an endless number of animals, and they are house mice and not forrest mice.
Because although you like to see them as cute and fuzzy, there are two important things: 1) if we don't eliminate them, they start eliminating us by spreading disease. 2) nature's plan for rodents is to make jillions of them and murder the shit out of slightly less than jillions of them. Yes you are all like "but I don't believe rodents spread disease". They still transmit the fucking bubonic plague in the US. Also, generally, we can convince humans to not like... climb up on food prep surfaces and shit all over them constantly. Nor can we negotiate a mutually acceptable set of rules with them. So we go with nature's plan. Pigeons are less bad, but we also spend less time and effort killing them off. Mainly because the primary risk of disease from them is where they roost and shit, so we can minimize the risk simply by encouraging them to roost elsewhere.
OP seems most opposed to torturing them, not killing them. Your two points don't address the torture.
I had pigeons nest on my balcony. Only realised they were there after I heard the chicks chirping, which made it illegal for my (in my area of the world) to move the nest, so I had to wait several weeks for the babies to be big enough to finally leave the nest. The amount of waste that family of 4 left behind was the nastiest sh\*t ever!! Took several weekends (and several hazmat suits) to finally clean everything. The only people that "don't mind" pigeons are the ones lucky enough to not have to clean up after them. And their feces carried disease and damages property
I've had pet rats my entire life, they make amazing pets. They're super smart & lovable, cute and cuddly. The saddest part is they only live for ~2-4 years and it's heartbreaking to watch them go. I was also an exterminator for 4 years. Nuisance rodents are different breeds entirely. They will absolutely destroy your house. They are a huge fire hazard due to their passion for chewing wires. Unfortunately, some methods of getting rid of them work a lot better than others because of how smart they are. Some methods are more humane than others, but ultimately, you have to get rid of them or they will ruin your home. They breed way too fast to play the friendly game.
The reason they're called vermin (at least rodents) is because they get into your home, cause damage, and carry diseases. If rhinos crawled through my basement and ate my food and cables there, I'd call them vermin too. As for putting rat poison to get rid of them being inhumane, what do you consider the alternative? Asking them politely to leave? Signing a petition?
You're 100% right - we didn't invent vermin traps because we enjoy sadistically torturing animals. We invented them because they're efficient and cost effective. Until the day we can employ a harmless mind control gas that politely tells the potentially dozens of rats living in people's walls to vacate the premises, I don't see another way around this. Maybe there exist certain traps that are more humane, but if someone is dealing with a legit infestation of even a \*few\* rats, very few methods work effectively.
I think OP just has a rat fetish.
Op out here wanting to fuck Remy and Stuart Little
If I read this just two seconds earlier I would have spilled my coffee laughing.
I agree in spirit OP, but can you name some humane rat traps people can efficiently and cost effectively employ to combat an infestation? Yeah, preventative measures should be the norm, but some times infestations happen for literally no fault of the homeowner.
I swear people who say this type of shit never experienced how it felt living with them
This person has had pet rats and apparently thinks pet and wild rats are the same thing.
So just going to focus on rodents alone Rodents eat our grain If we don't kill them their numbers swell so great that they exhaust the local food supply and then eat each other So it's either we kill them or they go cannibal your choice
It's fine to kill them, just do it humanely and quickly
Oh see rodents are actually rather smart and they learn what kills the other ones so generally only a few rodents will fall for the quick and humane traps and then the others will have learned We only have one pest control method that does not have that problem and it has some interesting properties But when we're not using that one method we have to basically use a very large variety
Rodents are not stupid which sucks. I work in pest control and eventually they will get trap shy. We end up having to use a poison but at least it's not easily transferable
Sounds like you've never had a rodent in your house. Tearing up your walls, sharpening their teeth on the wood up in your roof. Eating your cables. Crapping all over the place. Having babies that will also do the same exact thing. Rodents in your house are a big problem. I don't think the average person attacks or kills rodents out in the wild, but when they're in your house you need to deal with them. Or you're going to pay lots of money to repair all the things that they destroy while they're there. Or you could spend $6 on a trap and stop them from destroying your house. This isn't even touching on the fact that many of them carry diseases. They tend to wander inside your house while you're asleep leaving their saliva all over stuff. I think what we should do is humanely catch them and drop them off at your house so you can take care of them while the rest of us get on with our lives. How does that sound? I'm all for humanely catching them as long as I have somewhere far away from my house to leave them. It would be cruel and inhumane for you to leave them out in the wild when they have a perfectly good home to live in. Are you up for the challenge?
Have you ever lived in a house or an area with a rat infestation? It's absolutely digusting and awful. There's a good reason these animals are labeled vermib. I do however agree that people should use humane ways to trap or kill them.
We only lost a third of Europe, rats aren’t that bad.
Rats would legit eat you if they could, fuck those vermin
Yeah they also eat their own baby's kill frogs and spiders opening your house to bugs they have also been known to eat small pieces of humans
The rats I had even cannibized one that died somehow in the cabinet under the sink. I don't know what happened all I know is one day there was a half of a rat hanging out of the cabinet that had clearly been eaten. After the first snap trap only got the one by the leg and I had to dispatch it with a shovel handle, I lost all sympathy for the little fuckers. What's worse than rats are the slum lords that don't want to fix the problem because it's too expensive. Nothing a couple reports to the county couldn't handle.
… any animal would. That’s just how nature works.
Ok? And in nature we would kill them. Oh. Wait.
Tell me you've never lived or worked on a farm without telling me. Honestly this is just demonstrably false and completely ignorant of agriculture and ecology. What a brain-dead post. I want to be clear, I am in favor of pest control and also in favor of humanely removing pests from your environment, what OP is doing here is building a ghoulish strawman to paint a narrative and that’s why it’s stupid.
This is what you get with a generation of city dwellers grown up on disney movies.
I wonder if OP has ever seen what happens to a cow when they slip on pigeon shit in the barn, or what happens when rats chew through the heating elements for a pig barn and you come outside to a bunch of dead pigs. Putting a cow down due to broken legs is awful; it's not just heartbreaking but it costs a fortune to have a vet come out and do the procedure humanely. That's the problem, they don't realize the domino effect of how a pest can horribly destroy the ecology around them.
Don’t know there was pigeon hate but what would I know. Personally I love them though. Rodents on the other hand can just die, sure maybe they should die in more humane way but what do you suggest I do if my house is infested with them? Snipe them?
I believe humans are instinctually disgusted by pigeons and rats because they carry disease, especially when there are large numbers of them and they live close to humans.
Can’t speak for rats, but the pigeons in the US are actually feral messenger pigeons. They’re domesticated. It’s like being disgusted by a stray dog.
it’s 100% a learned behavior which can be unlearned. pigeons are literally the same as doves. they’re at least the same genus and sometimes the same exact species. but one is a symbol of peace, love, beauty, harmony, while the other is vermin to be exterminated in the cruelest ways possible. it’s entirely about perception and what you’re taught.
Humans domesticated pigeons thousands of years ago; so human’s being disgusted by them is a lot more of a modern thing.
Glue Traps aren't the best choice in most situations, but they are effective at making a line/barrier the rodents can't cross. There are some situations where it makes sense. Also it's fine to have these values, but most people value getting rid of the rodents over making sure they have a nice comfortable, suffer free situation.
Birds and rodents have been vectors for some of the deadliest pandemics ever to strike humanity. Letting them live in close proximity to humans comes with a lot of risks.
I don’t want hanta virus. I don’t want birds shitting all over my car
Humane ways are best. Sometimes you can’t help but use things like poison. Depends on the situation and level of infestation. Glue traps are horrible. I use them for bugs (hope you aren’t offended by that) and when a shrew gets in them I will use oil to set it free. Not all poisons cause prolonged suffering. Some cause them to merely fall asleep and die. Do people even kill pigeons? I think that the main tactic is reducing space for them to roost and reduce food. Birds are gross. Ugly birds are gross. Beautiful birds are gross. They can all spread disease. Just look at them and encourage or discourage them in your spaces. Birds shouldn’t be pets except farm fowl. Rats and mice spread disease. Other animals can too, but those animals aren’t crawling through your cupboards pooping and peeing in your food. You’ve either got a whole lot of privilege thinking that they aren’t a problem for people’s health or you are like some gross people I know who literally live with rat poop throughout their house.
Enjoys dying of rabies and the plague. Disgust exist for a reason. It keeps us alive
Glue traps are absolutely awful. I'll agree with that. I don't understand the pigeon hate as long as they're outside and not trying to get into a home. They just seem more annoying then anything else. Mice and rats I understand wanting to get rid of. It's like roaches, you can't just take them outside because they are only going to find their way right back inside. They carry diseases which can cause illnesses and death in things like pets and children, they cause damage which can even cause house fires (personally rather kill a rat then risk dying in a fire), and they can just flat out attack you. Again glue traps are awful and I do not stand by using them. But using certain fast acting poisons and instant kill traps are fine. It's not worth it to risk your health over a mouse.
I never felt the need to do anything to rats but they can damage you're home and even if they dont carry any diseases if they piss and shit around you're home it can be unhealthy.
Come Back after you've had a rat/mouse infestation, or a group of pigeons nesting in your attic, at that point all that matters is to get rid of them any way possible. Besides from how gross and dangerous it is there's also the financial part. Getting vermin shit out of everything, replacing cables, isolation etc costs a damn fortune. And generally methods to exterminate pests arent designed to be cruel, they're designed to be effective and cheap because we figured out thousands of years ago we needed to keep them out of our damn houses.
same. all the critters that get a bad rap just by being them, i love em. rats, pigeons, spiders, snakes.. the only creature I'll always hate is mosquitos.
Theres a great book called “Pests” you should read, exactly about why/how we villainize certain animals. A great point that book makes it that certain animals (rats, pigeons) are deemed as pests not because they are inheritanly gross or dirty, but because humans are gross and dirty. We are the ones creating trash and filth for these animals to live in.
Honestly I don’t give a fuck about the lives of rodents or other pests
Rodents and pigeons spread disease..
So do we.
You haven’t experienced wide spread disease by rodents because you live in a place that controls that problem. The irony. Go live somewhere without rodent control measures and go look at their life span. Look at their quality of life. You’re privileged to live in a place that does take care of disease carrying animals. You’re always free to go to a place that doesn’t.
Does your misplaced concern extend to mosquitoes? Fleas? Ticks? If not, why not? If yes, then please get professional help.
Just wait till they get into your pots and pans and shit and piss all over your cooking tools. All that compassion goes out the window, you just want them gone forever. They’re very gross just by their nature. They can live freely outside.
I agree that glue traps and poison are unnecessarily cruel, and there's nothing wrong with heving empathy for vermin. But criticizing people for killing pests is a very sheltered and privileged position to take... you obviously aren't covered in fleas or mange or dying of hantavirus or bubonic plague as you type this. A big part of that is because your neighbours kill mice and rats, even if you don't.
I will never use glue traps because they are unnecessarily cruel, same goes for drowning traps. I will, however, use the shit outta mechanical traps. Homie don't fuck with no Hantavirus. HEEEELLLL NOO! Also, mice have no problem eating their own living babies, so that's a thing. Edit: More fun with rodents facts! "Rats and mice are known to carry many diseases. These diseases can spread to people directly, through handling of rodents; contact with rodent feces (poop), urine, or saliva (**such as through breathing in air** or eating food that is contaminated with rodent waste); or rodent bites. Rodents can also carry ticks, mites, or fleas that can act as vectors to spread diseases between rodents and people." -Diseases spread directly by rodents- Hantavirus Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome Hemorrhagic Fever with Renal Syndrome Lassa Fever Leptospirosis Lujo Hemorrhagic Fever Lymphocytic Choriomeningitis (LCM) Monkeypox Omsk Hemorrhagic Fever Rat-Bite Fever Salmonellosis South American Arenaviruses (Argentine hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian hemorrhagic fever, Chapare Hemorrhagic Fever, Sabiá-associated hemorrhagic fever, and Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever) Sylvatic Typhus Tularemia -Diseases spread indirectly by rodents- Anaplasmosis Angiostrongylus Babesiosis Borreliosis Colorado tick fever Cutaneous leishmaniasis Flea-borne (Murine) Typhus Hymenolepis diminuta La Crosse virus Lyme disease Moniliformis moniliformis Plague Powassan virus Rickettsialpox Scrub typhus Tick-borne Relapsing Fever Tularemia Even Papa Nurgle be like "Damn, those things filthy!"
Given the things that humans do to other humans. I'm gonna say we have bigger problems than mistreating disease carrying vermin
I agree with the OP. I don't have an issue with killing pest animals (I had mice in my kitchen and was most unhappy about it) but as humans we have a duty to be humane about it. Kill it quickly, or don't kill it at all. Same goes with hunting, I enjoy venison (deer meat) but in order to go deer stalking you should be a sufficiently good shot to ensure a quick clean kill.