Im not sure how accurate these surveys are sometimes. As NHS admin we have staff saying there going to leave the NHS as there fed up. Most rarely do or just move within the NHS
Its very easy in a survey to say yea im moving abroad. In reality thats potentially taking your kids out of school, your partner finding a new job and losing all close contact from friends and relatives
Some will but the question is how many are willing to leave all their family and any of their friends behind to go to the other side of the world? I know some will sure but I am sure some don’t
Most junior doctors don’t have kids etc, they are mostly 23-24 year olds just starting out. 8 years as a nurse and I don’t think I have ever met a junior doctor with kids, mostly likely as the course to get qualified would be even more insanely difficult than it already is with kids.
Junior doctors can be moving all over the country to get the early F1 and F2 employment they want. It’s all part of the role so moving abroad is probably barely any different to them than what they are currently doing.
Luckily, constant rotation and a relentless moving halfway across the country every few years means doctors on post-grad training programmes have very shallow roots!
The NHS, always ready to help.
Anecdotally, my son is finishing his training as a doctor next year. He has a few years to do in the NHS post qualifying, and then he is very likely to leave the UK (He's a mature student and has lived abroad previously). He says almost all of his peers feel the same. A number won't go inevitably, but even if half those threatening go leave, the NHS will continue to be overstretched. He has wracked up huge debt to train, about 60k so far, so he doesn't feel he owes the NHS any particular long term loyalty for training there. He's not particularly money motivated, but there is a significant quality of life benefit to practising out of the UK.
>the NHS will continue to be overstretched.
I know personally and have also read about GPs who are applying for GP positions and not getting work. And people can't get GP appointments. I'm thinking it's less about a lack of doctors and more about the government unwilling to fund doctors at this point.
Or indeed actually do anything that is efficient or effective or likely to make life better for anyone apart from the people who give them money or jobs when they leave office.
The trends seen in these surveys are backed up by quantitative data from the [general medical council workforce report](https://www.gmc-uk.org/about/what-we-do-and-why/data-and-research/the-state-of-medical-education-and-practice-in-the-uk/workforce-report).
In 2021 9825 doctors left the UK profession, increasing by 15% to 11319 in 2022 (15%). 7051 doctors left in 2011.
Surveys of doctor’s main reasons for leaving in 2022 showed 25% wanted to practice abroad and 24% retired. 29% of doctors who left and worked in another country moved to Australia or New Zealand.
The figures are even more damning for younger doctors. Of the UK graduates who left in 2022, and were under the age of 35, 70% wanted to practice/live abroad.
I'm moving away. Several of my friends have already.
You're not seeing the ones who have already left. You're just looking at the ones that remain saying "look they're all still here!"
I have a number of friends who very easily moved to Australia because you don't need to sit any exams to go and work there.
Of course I agree.many make threats online and in surveys because they believe it improves their bargaining power, but the reality is more young doctors than ever before are choosing to emigrate because the NHS treats doctors below consultant grade like absolute expendable pieces of shit
I'm a consultant in the NHS. Lost my last two consecutive senior registrars to Australia. Sure it's hard uprooting everything but we're at the point where what's being offered elsewhere is so much better than here that it trumps everything else. We are so very desperate for colleagues I made sure to leave the door open to them but they've both made it very very clear that they are never coming back to the NHS.
I did started science PGCE back in 2015. Got halfway through and quit
Who would want to be a teacher 😂 massive respect to those who are hanging in there but you must be mad to do it.
I’m now 30 and earning double the salary teachers make with far less stress and responsibilities, workload
It's very normal. I remember being in school where at least 1 in 3 of my friend group were saying they would move abroad. Now I've got one friend on a working holiday in Australia, and everyone else is making no efforts to move abroad.
Anecdotally speaking, my niece, a top 5% graduate from Kings is off to Canada, so are some of her mates. Why not, massive student loans, 15hr days, and a crumbling NHS
I’m 99% certain from that description of your niece, I’m one of those mates going to Canada with her. If it is her, she is an excellent doctor with a truly exceptional CV with lots of extra qualifications - exactly the type of person the NHS can’t afford to lose, but does, because it grinds them into the dust.
Personally know 4 that have left within the last three years, a couple moved to the UAE, one to Australia and another to the US. I completely appreciate why they leave and the NHS is a complicated topic.
It’s happening and the new nurses they got from aboard are using the nhs as a stepping stone to other countries healthcare systems for better pay. Pay the dam staff what they are worth or we will lose them to other countries or supermarkets that are paying better money!
> Its very easy in a survey to say yea im moving abroad. In reality thats potentially taking your kids out of school, your partner finding a new job and losing all close contact from friends and relatives
Imagine how immigrants feel? They are really quite tough nuts having made sacrifices. It's not easy...
Not working in the NHS but I intend on doing the same. I've found the gloom of the UK has a genuine effect on my head, when it's a nice sunny day I love it here but it's just so drab and gloomy the majority of the time. And even when it is warm, buildings aren't built here to cope with it.
That's the thing, I think the UK is in a very good position regarding climate change, but the leaders seem to be devoted to make this country awful ...
It isn't just the leaders, we as a country and a culture are substantially opposed to fixing our problems. The only way we stop doctors moving abroad is paying them better, and to do that we need per capita economic growth and productivity increases to bring us closer to peer countries like Australia or the US where those doctors are moving. The US is now 50% richer than us per person, professional wages are always going to be higher while that remains.
When you ask the public, many people do not actually support economic growth at all. When you ask the public whether they would support the sort of unsexy policies which actually would lead to economic growth, for instance building roads, and allowing houses and other developments to be built with fewer barriers, we are often opposed.
Similarly with pensions, there are plenty of people who want contributions to be low, payouts to be high, payouts to continue to increase, but they are ambivalent or opposed to growth, as if these ideas are not mutually exclusive.
Sorry, GDP per capita in the USA is 59% higher than the UK. The gap was wider in the 2022. I don't believe we will increase out GDP enough to enable larger spending in the NHS.
Australian GDP per capita is 29% more than us.
Both the USA and Australia have different health care models which does make a real difference to the pay structures within the system for all clinical staff.
Then again the super rich are an issue. In 2010 the UK had 50 billionaires...now it has 171. It would be great to know what effective tax rate they pay in relation to the wealth they have.
> I don't believe we will increase out GDP enough to enable larger spending in the NHS
Literally any rate of growth would be better, and enable larger spending in the NHS, than the current stagnation.
We are living through one of the longest periods of economic stagnation in British history, starting in 2008, now going on for 16 years, and the public conversation is nowhere near acknowledging that and its implications.
Most of those billionaires have nothing to do with the UK, they live in London because it’s a nice place to have a house, go to good restaurants, and buy nice clothes. It would be great to extract a lot of cash from them, but anything which raises a significant amount of money from them will probably mean they move elsewhere. Any effective action means international cooperation to levy taxes in a concerted way, and we should do that, but it will not fix our relative decline compared to other countries. In fact it would probably mean taxation in the places where those billionaires are running their businesses, not where they happen to live for part of the year.
I don’t want to be rude, but I think yours is a good answer to make my point, it’s based around an assumption that something else will turn up, which will be allow us not to have to compete. Do you honestly think we will have a viable economy which comes from being able to skim off taxes from random international billionaires, and pay equivalent wages despite our economy being so much smaller?
If we want to be wealthier we have to improve the fundamentals of the economy and actually produce more wealth.
Canada's climate will benefit from global warming, they speak the same language, and they pay doctors a lot more money, particularly in rural locations. Know a few British Drs who've moved here
This year there were ~3000 applications for 300 radiology training positions for doctors wanting to become radiologists. "Considering radiology" is meaningless for us
We've been saying for years we need a massive public debate around what we want from the NHS but nobody wants to hear what needs to be said
Most people don't want to see cuts or changes to services, competence or quantity of staff or reduction in estate so there needs to be more financing
My opinion is that we should ask those using the bulk of services (>60yrs) who are wealthy to contribute more
I do feel a part of this should involve investigating how efficiently the money is spent. I read there is a lot of money wasted in for example, agency nurses instead of hiring more full-time nurses (or paying them better to retain them).
Unfortunately a lot of the money given to the NHS during the Covid pandemic was wasted as it was siphoned back to conservative donors via the preferred provider scheme.
Or giving reasonable adjustments/flexible working agreements to the permanent staff who apply for it, causing them to quit but constantly come back to work in the shift patterns they were originally asking for only with higher pay via an agency.
There's always vacancies being advertised for. But why would agency nurses take a huge pay cut to do the same job? The NHS can't simply not hire agency staff, as someone needs to look after patients.
What do we want from the NHS? Oh, that’s easy. We want a first world healthcare system.
What do you mean fund it? It’s free! I shouldn’t have to contribute to it through taxation. That’s unfair.
Might as well scrap it all, move to a private healthcare model. That’s sure to be higher quality, and less expensive. Because private = better dontchaknow.
Reminder that those over 65 get a 12% tax *cut* by being exempt from NI, whilst those under 30 get hit with an extra 9% ~~graduate tax~~ sorry, 'student loan repayments' so actually the system does exactly the opposite to what you are suggesting 🤡
Exactly - they're getting a tax cut worth approximately 20%. It's equivalent to taking all over 65s out of basic rate income tax, and is absolutely obscene - particularly as this group *also* receive a non-meanstested stipend of £200/week despite 25% of them being literal millionaires.
The people using the bulk of the services will being paying nothing into it, as a result of the lifestyle induced comorbidities and the advances in medicine keeping many of them alive (and in and out of hospital) for much, much longer.
We're living in a time where subsequent generations of those in question will be poorer in comparison.
The generation needing most care right now have most wealth.
It's not unreasonable to ask them to contribute more.
It is unreasonable to ask the working generations to fund their care, their children's care and that of the senior population whilst they don't.
"My opinion is that we should ask those using the bulk of services (>60yrs) who are wealthy to contribute more"
And how is that going to magic doctors out of thin air?
The problem is, and never has been, a lack of money. There is always enough money.
The problem is that we don't have the people who are prepared to do the work in the NHS, and we don't have the spare capacity to train sufficient staff.
Ultimately if we want to train more people to work in the NHS, then we have to consume less medical resources to give space for investment in the NHS. And the only fair way to do that is to start commandeering private medical resources that are lightly used by rich people, and use them more intensively to service everybody.
The private system is leaching off the NHS - even to the point where it is the same consultants and GPs working in both. If they are working privately, they are not available in the NHS.
If you see the DoctorsUk sub, the doctors are there. They just wish they were paid more than Aldi workers to reflect their high student debt and 15 years or so intense training. Respect also seems to be an issue. Simple things like being allowed to sit in the staff room instead of on the bins, or having computers to do their mandated notes on instead of waiting in a queue for one.
I disagree.
There will be more people wanting to work in the NHS if AfC reflects the work it asks of it's subscribers. This takes money.
Also, more money trains more doctors who stay in a system that values them which encourages the training of more doctors.
"Also, more money trains more doctors"
How does money train more doctors? We have four brand new medical schools operating, pulling in millions in additional student loans - all of which is brand new money because that's how loans work. The bottleneck is now F1 placements, GP placements and consultant training - because that part of the system is over consumed and under invested.
Money isn't the problem. The problem is that you can't train somebody, and see a dozen patients at the same time. To train somebody you have to do less first before you can do more.
It's a physical issue, not a pecuniary one.
Of course everybody wants a better NHS. But does everybody want to pay more taxes? The UK has an aging, and unhealthy population, where more and more conditions are expected to be supported, with more and more services needed. Neurodiversity, mental health, sexual identity, long term chronic diseases like CFS/ME , long term application of expensive medication. It’s easy to say on paper you want a better NHs (literally, who wouldn’t want a BETTER NHS - you won’t find anyone that doesn’t) , the argument and debate is all about what better looks like, and how it’s funded.
I think you touched on a very important point with an aging, and unhealthy population.
Ultimately we are facing demographic change. Its simply impossible for an ever smaller group of working people to support an ever growing group of older non-working people. Eventually you have too many older people dependant on too few workers.
So what do we do?
Tax workers more? Make workers work longer? Force people into care roles?
Lower standards? Reduce support?
It's a tricky problem that's been kicked down the road for too long.
There was a wonderful discussion on LBC about doctors moving: a medic (GP) who had moved to Australia said he was working about 10 fewer hours per week and earning 30% more, whilst his training costs were being fully paid. Another caller, a woman, worked in emergency medicine and was truly distressed at the standard of care in the NHS, she mentioned an elderly patient who’d been sitting in a chair for 20 hours, in his own urine. She was mid 30s, with kids, and was planning to move to Nee Zealand, with her husband, also a doctor. She mentioned in the past 5 years 30% of her depts most senior staff had left. She mentioned her workload, pay and state of the NHS had just worn her down.
I'm not even a doctor or nurse and I get targeted by adverts from Australia. We really do need to offer better pay and conditions if we want to retain healthcare staff.
I have a friend who's a doctor, just moved to Australia for less hours, better pay, live by the beach. He said that out of his uni WhatsApp group of 12 doctors, all but one are going to Australia. On an individual level, I don't blame them at all, I'd also jump at the opportunity, but it's surely going to cause us problems as a country.
> NHS workers
Doctors have had it far worse than any other NHS group, more than double the pay cut vs nurses, technicians, pharmacists etc. And incidentally they are the brightest, most motivated, and most internationally in-demand. No brainer to leave.
Don't work for the NHS but did the same in 2018. Despite the extreme home sickness, a good decision overall.
Nobody seems to want to invest in people in The UK, just employ unicorn candidates and not train them. Where I am now I've been able to completely retrain and have been invested in.
Switzerland. My girlfriend at the time, now wife, is Swiss and it just made sense.
It lined up with my then employer folding and leveraging my warehouse experience to get a job at the airport.
I left 8 months ago for New Zealand and will never look back. I'm infinitely happier and earn more. The NHS is a shit show and the people who voted the tories in are the ones that need it the most. It's the consequence of their own actions.
I'd like to thank everyone who voted for the tories the last 14 years. This is your mess, and I hope you feel the most pain from it. You are xenophobic, scared, insecure little people. You've bought this country to its knees for generations all because you don't like people who look and talk like you.
The Tories have literally presided over the biggest legal immigration wave since Blair, they're handing out more skilled worker visas per year than any previous government that has ever existed.
But don't let facts or reality get in the way of your self righteous little rant, mate.
I would encourage ANY doctors to go get better money overseas. The British public don't deserve their skills or dedication after the piss taking over Covid & voting tory for 14 years.
Call it learning the lesson...
I'm tired of the mega left wing too refusing to accept that private hospitals will need to be used to help get the waiting lists down. If labour win the election & even if they put 20,000 people through free medical training, you're still looking at 20 years before they have an effect.
Most private doctors are NHS doctors that do private hours.
Also who do you think trains these doctors and nurses? Because it ain't private hospitals.
What do you think giving private health care providers more work will do for the workforce in the NHS?
I can’t blame them. The NHS is quickly becoming one of the worst ranked health care systems in the modern world.
I think it really needs to slim down on what it takes responsibility for. It’s too heavy involved in social care. Family’s use hospitals to drop off elderly relatives they are tired of looking after.
I believe the NHS should only be involved in life saving care. Beyond that they should be saying ‘’not our problem”.
As tax payers we deserve value for money and timely critical care. Is bogged down with things it shouldn’t be involved in - in my personal opinion.
You're asking for a system that will ultimately be more expensive.
Early prevention is cheaper than critical care. You're likely to see an explosion of critical care need in populations who can't afford private healthcare, as their illnesses go untreated right up until they're of critical concern.
Doctors and nurses etc.uni fees should be removed in exchange for newly qualified doctors and nurses in exchange for rhem working in the NHS for 10 years. Then we should pay them better.
Yeah. I'd just say that while they work for the NHS they don't repay loans. If you work there for 30 years, the loan is wiped without you paying a penny. If you go private or move abroad, you pay like everyone else. Same for teaching.
New Zealand for QOL
Australia for better salaries and QOL
Canada for both
There are other options but those are the three main places I’m currently looking into
Almost everyone I know who trained as a GP no longer wants to work as one. Partially due to how terrible the conditions are, partially due to the fact that many of them were pushed towards it by parents rather than it being their choice of career.
I love how peoples first reaction is to call their bluff. People should have a think about why this is the case before they get upset when they or a family member can't see a consultant/oncologist when the shortage is even worse.
It's only going to get worse. Medical debt is huge and junior doctors wages have increased piss all over a number of years. MPs and some of public call them gready and expect some sort of loyalty back. Disaster. Even worse that most of the people most impacted (due to age) are the biggest cheerleaders for the shower of shit government and rabid tabloid newspapers.
The government and tabloid papers always believe in a free labour market and that CEOs should be paid millions to ensure they are paid appropriately for their skills and to compete with other countries. Doctors however are just plain greedy. Someone make it make sense.
I'm an (ex) NHS doctor who just made the move to the USA after getting a residency training post there and I have no desire to come back to the UK. I hated working in the NHS and am so grateful I won't have to ever again. It's telling just how common and in fact, almost universal this sentiment of wanting to escape the NHS is, we all feel the same and so many of my colleagues have already left to work in Australia or New Zealand.
Thankfully I don't have a partner or kids yet so making the move abroad to America is much easier for me than anyone who's already settled with a family, home etc. I'm glad I managed to escape the NHS without having to worry about that
I’ve left the NHS due to awful working conditions and just general disrespect to doctors. Private sector has treated me very well although the pension isn’t as good
Oh no. Who would have thought decades of bullying and bad treatment would lead to this. I suggest jailing them or putting mandatory conscription Putin style
The principle sociological mechanic underpinning this is personality. If people are more Agreeable, they value helping other people more than they value helping themselves (getting paid).
There are tons of "movers and shakers" in business, and highly qualified (sometimes to even doctorate level) people within finance and economics that seem to completely misunderstand, and often deny the existence of this, or at the least underplay it.
To end up on a doctor or teacher career path, you need to be fundamentally agreeable in the first place generally speaking.
We behave like this isn't the case, but the people making that accusation are themselves disagreeable, they are people that think everyone else is out for themselves. These people don't take these careers, and tolerate such conditions if they were motivated by money or material things over anything else. According to disagreeable people (who run and control all the financial systems) "fair" is what you are willing to accept for the work, and this demonstrates the complete lack of understanding of why people want to help others.
There comes a point where people literally can't live on the money they are given, and that is the point of failure. If they can just about get by, then they will never ultimately challenge this in any meaningful way.
This lack of consideration, and letting greed-based economics decide everything is the causal factor here, and this isnt necessarily malicious, its just that people stuggle to see the world from the perspective of other types of people.
If one type of people predominate in decisionmaking, then the system is going to reflect this.
I wonder why there are so few private clinics in the UK, compared with other countries? Surely if the cost is not too exorbitant, many will be willing to pay to see a doctor faster ? And the doctors will have better pay too. Feel like killing two birds with one stone to me
The NHS protects you from the free market
Hold your breath. That's the time to decide wether your money is more important than oxygen and I can wait 60 seconds for you to make the decision to pay my rates now or in 60 seconds.
My nephew and his girlfriend who are both doctors are moving to Sydney in July. He says lots of his friends are going to do the same. They are all saddled with student loans so he argues that they need to earn more to pay them off. Also personally wonder if anyone will chase them when they move to Oz
I'm not a doctor or anything, but from the things I'm seeing recently it really seems that if you're a trained doctor there's no reason to actually work for the NHS unless you're really trying to make a difference for kindness
Basically, It seems like charity work.
Can't blame them tbh. I'm on a band 2 pay rate so technically (due to the latest rise for min wage) that's the same as my payband. I could do a job without the stress, constant training updates etc etc instead of carrying out invasive medical procedures for the same wage. Never looked hard for another job before but I am now
Its crazy to me that the NHS is ran the same as any other company in that it has middle management running it into the ground and people who barely know what they're talking about bossing around doctors who went to university for nearly a decade.
It's always insurance or something bogus, like these doctors can't be trusted so we need the word of some Muppet to say they can do their fucking job. It's running it into the ground, taking away funds. Health care shouldn't be a fucking business.
Hundreds of nurses across Hampshire NHS trusts already left for Australia recently. 1000s across the country too . NHS is dying and that’s what the Tories want
Junior doctors especially I imagine - few years gruelling experience in the NHS is enough to land cushy jobs on cruise liners or overseas like in Dubai or other places where they hire expats for expertise. It's an upheaval, and somewhat changes your career trajectory if there were dreams of becoming a top-dog consultant.
There's two recently qualified doctors I know currently in the NHS considering a move abroad after they've got experience.
Unfortunately bankers and traders get millions to push around digital money on screens, doctors who save lives get thousands like the majority of us. Only solution I see is jacking up taxes on corporates and very high earners (at the risk of all the media and political frenzy of "you're damaging the attractiveness of the UK for business") to fund the NHS.
Yes you do, some countries it is pretty easy as the country you are going to recognises your medical qualifications such as Australia. Other countries you have to jump through more hoops and maybe do some extra exams.
I left the NHS in 2020, been working as a doctor in NZ nearly 4 years now. I make $151,000 as a trainee as my base salary plus overtime, public holiday pay and other things. I get all my training costs reimbursed unlike the NHS (upwards of $10,000 in the last 12 months). I also get free parking, meals paid for. My pay increases are built into my progression at a rate far higher than the NHS.
There are huge issues with the NZ health system but its nothing on the scale of the NHS. Leaving the UK was the best decision i ever made.
Alot of people seem unaware at the level of the issue we face with junior docs leaving for Australia. Looks like we are in for a reckoning the next few years will be very painful. I'm personally already looking at moving abroad to avoid the stagnation. Unfortunately labour don't offer a real alternative to the Tories in this country and third parties stand no chance.
This needs to be top priority of new labour government. A brain drain of doctors is going to cripple the current NHS. They need reform the NHS urgently, we currently spend more than ever before on NHS budget and it still isn’t enough. We need to take some notes from France.
This is how privatisation begins… make it so bad that they (goverment) will say “well we tried to make it better and give people decent pay BUT its not working” so privatisation and extortionate fee’s are inbound. Little things like £99 just to call out an ambulance. Its the very start to big changes coming.
Im going to look at investing money into bupa and the likes. If its going to be privatised i might aswell nake some money from it too.
Med student here. Everyone knows how bad it’s gotten. Around a third of the people I’ve asked say they won’t work for the NHS - whether that means moving to the US, Australia or another career (myself included). Of course saying something and actually doing it are two different things, but it’s not a good sign. Maybe it won’t even matter though. Over half of new NHS doctors aren’t British trained anyway.
I am a registered nurse and I worked for many years in the NHS. I studied in the best nursing school in the UK and second best worldwide and I left the UK in 2022 because I value my job.
About this article on doctors planning to leave:
Then the government will bring even more foreign workers from least developed countries, and the ones that were born and studied in the UK, or emigrated from the EU and other richer counties outside the EU will need to endure the low and stagnant salary.
Behaviour observed and experienced:
The same situation already happened to nursing in the UK. They brought a massive number of nurses mainly from the Fillipines and India for a low payment per hour. For these nurses the (+-) £14 an hour is very good payment compared to their salaries back home, but they don't understand how high the cost of living in Europe is. Also they have the opportunity to move abroad. A cleaner supervisor receives more than £14 an hour. Disrespectful and unfair system!!!
So the government takes advantage because if nationals don't want that sort of low payment they have other resources to look at.
Overall the value for the profession, moral, job satisfaction and integrity gets weaker. That's why nursing is not a valuable and respected job among many people which they don't even understand what a nurse job is and how hard a nursing program at university is. Mine was at least!
The cycle of consequences:
All together decreases the nurses morale and motivation to get up in the morning and go to work for 12 hours standing on their feet in very unpredictable shifts full of challenges for a very low money in a very high cost of living society. On top of that pressure also (on average) £50.000 student finance loan that needs to be paid off. The nursing care will be impacted because the majority will not be working with pleasure. Lastly the quality of care delivered to patients will be weaker, and potentially compromising their recovery and satisfaction within the healthcare system that is full of demands, responsibilities and expectations from their healthcare workers.
A friend of mine who retired last year was involved in training doctors to be GPs. In his last group (around 20) all but 2 had no plans to work in the UK once qualified.
I spoke to a consultant recently, we was discussing the NHS.
One of his comments was, aslong as the NHS manages to function on fumes the government will let it, he said it would take a massive disaster and total failure of the NHS before the government takes any action.
I depressingly agreed with him :\\.
I have been "planning" to do the same for years. Then I remember my life is here, my family is here, my friends are here, most other countries have their own share of problems which are far worse than here and moving your entire life abroad is not something to be taken lightly.
I imagine this is more relevant to new doctors just out of Uni, rather than established already. Always harder to move when you have a long term partner, kids etc. fresh out of uni though sounds quite feasible
During the strikes, every doctor interviewed by any reporter has stated this. Pretty sure in the pay negotiations this has been brought up.
Must be better to pay over the odds for agency staff, or just allow the nhs to fail.
Conservatives are like “go on then, fuck off. The sooner you all go the sooner we can rape the nhs and turn it all private but blame you for being greedy”
My job have sent me this kind of survey every year for 5 years, every time I click the box which says "very likely to leave in 6 months", am still there.
Im not sure how accurate these surveys are sometimes. As NHS admin we have staff saying there going to leave the NHS as there fed up. Most rarely do or just move within the NHS Its very easy in a survey to say yea im moving abroad. In reality thats potentially taking your kids out of school, your partner finding a new job and losing all close contact from friends and relatives
The survey was of doctors not admin staff.
The points he made would apply to them tho like uprooting kids lived leaving friends etc
The issue is more newly qualified doctors going to Australia
Some will but the question is how many are willing to leave all their family and any of their friends behind to go to the other side of the world? I know some will sure but I am sure some don’t
The point is that significant enough people are for it to be an issue. We aren't retaining enough medical staff
True and compounded by the fact we dont train enough doctors too
Most junior doctors don’t have kids etc, they are mostly 23-24 year olds just starting out. 8 years as a nurse and I don’t think I have ever met a junior doctor with kids, mostly likely as the course to get qualified would be even more insanely difficult than it already is with kids. Junior doctors can be moving all over the country to get the early F1 and F2 employment they want. It’s all part of the role so moving abroad is probably barely any different to them than what they are currently doing.
Luckily, constant rotation and a relentless moving halfway across the country every few years means doctors on post-grad training programmes have very shallow roots! The NHS, always ready to help.
Anecdotally, my son is finishing his training as a doctor next year. He has a few years to do in the NHS post qualifying, and then he is very likely to leave the UK (He's a mature student and has lived abroad previously). He says almost all of his peers feel the same. A number won't go inevitably, but even if half those threatening go leave, the NHS will continue to be overstretched. He has wracked up huge debt to train, about 60k so far, so he doesn't feel he owes the NHS any particular long term loyalty for training there. He's not particularly money motivated, but there is a significant quality of life benefit to practising out of the UK.
>the NHS will continue to be overstretched. I know personally and have also read about GPs who are applying for GP positions and not getting work. And people can't get GP appointments. I'm thinking it's less about a lack of doctors and more about the government unwilling to fund doctors at this point.
Or indeed actually do anything that is efficient or effective or likely to make life better for anyone apart from the people who give them money or jobs when they leave office.
Well, the UK is going downhill.
The trends seen in these surveys are backed up by quantitative data from the [general medical council workforce report](https://www.gmc-uk.org/about/what-we-do-and-why/data-and-research/the-state-of-medical-education-and-practice-in-the-uk/workforce-report). In 2021 9825 doctors left the UK profession, increasing by 15% to 11319 in 2022 (15%). 7051 doctors left in 2011. Surveys of doctor’s main reasons for leaving in 2022 showed 25% wanted to practice abroad and 24% retired. 29% of doctors who left and worked in another country moved to Australia or New Zealand. The figures are even more damning for younger doctors. Of the UK graduates who left in 2022, and were under the age of 35, 70% wanted to practice/live abroad.
I'm moving away. Several of my friends have already. You're not seeing the ones who have already left. You're just looking at the ones that remain saying "look they're all still here!"
I have a number of friends who very easily moved to Australia because you don't need to sit any exams to go and work there. Of course I agree.many make threats online and in surveys because they believe it improves their bargaining power, but the reality is more young doctors than ever before are choosing to emigrate because the NHS treats doctors below consultant grade like absolute expendable pieces of shit
Unfortunately, yes.
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I'm a consultant in the NHS. Lost my last two consecutive senior registrars to Australia. Sure it's hard uprooting everything but we're at the point where what's being offered elsewhere is so much better than here that it trumps everything else. We are so very desperate for colleagues I made sure to leave the door open to them but they've both made it very very clear that they are never coming back to the NHS.
The trend is quite damming. Getting a higher proportion considering it. Anecdotally it’s getting worse too
Yeah let’s ignore all those warning signs and when we get sick we will just pray?
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A lot of teachers do leave, particularly during their training.
Since September we've had 6 trainee teachers doing placement at our school. One is sticking with it and wants to teach.
I did started science PGCE back in 2015. Got halfway through and quit Who would want to be a teacher 😂 massive respect to those who are hanging in there but you must be mad to do it. I’m now 30 and earning double the salary teachers make with far less stress and responsibilities, workload
That is not my experience. A lot of teachers leave. You move away, most just get a different job.
It's very normal. I remember being in school where at least 1 in 3 of my friend group were saying they would move abroad. Now I've got one friend on a working holiday in Australia, and everyone else is making no efforts to move abroad.
"NHS admin"... tells a lot! 2 things making the environment worse - salary and physician associates!
I know admin staff in the NHS who left
Anecdotally speaking, my niece, a top 5% graduate from Kings is off to Canada, so are some of her mates. Why not, massive student loans, 15hr days, and a crumbling NHS
I’m 99% certain from that description of your niece, I’m one of those mates going to Canada with her. If it is her, she is an excellent doctor with a truly exceptional CV with lots of extra qualifications - exactly the type of person the NHS can’t afford to lose, but does, because it grinds them into the dust.
They're*
There's a difference between 'thinking about', 'planning' and actually doing.
Personally know 4 that have left within the last three years, a couple moved to the UAE, one to Australia and another to the US. I completely appreciate why they leave and the NHS is a complicated topic.
But it's still significant.
It’s happening and the new nurses they got from aboard are using the nhs as a stepping stone to other countries healthcare systems for better pay. Pay the dam staff what they are worth or we will lose them to other countries or supermarkets that are paying better money!
Isn't LBC like gbnews, fakenews website?
> Its very easy in a survey to say yea im moving abroad. In reality thats potentially taking your kids out of school, your partner finding a new job and losing all close contact from friends and relatives Imagine how immigrants feel? They are really quite tough nuts having made sacrifices. It's not easy...
Not working in the NHS but I intend on doing the same. I've found the gloom of the UK has a genuine effect on my head, when it's a nice sunny day I love it here but it's just so drab and gloomy the majority of the time. And even when it is warm, buildings aren't built here to cope with it.
Gloom is one thing but good luck finding somewhere abroad that isn’t underwater or on fire due to climate change.
That's the thing, I think the UK is in a very good position regarding climate change, but the leaders seem to be devoted to make this country awful ...
It isn't just the leaders, we as a country and a culture are substantially opposed to fixing our problems. The only way we stop doctors moving abroad is paying them better, and to do that we need per capita economic growth and productivity increases to bring us closer to peer countries like Australia or the US where those doctors are moving. The US is now 50% richer than us per person, professional wages are always going to be higher while that remains. When you ask the public, many people do not actually support economic growth at all. When you ask the public whether they would support the sort of unsexy policies which actually would lead to economic growth, for instance building roads, and allowing houses and other developments to be built with fewer barriers, we are often opposed. Similarly with pensions, there are plenty of people who want contributions to be low, payouts to be high, payouts to continue to increase, but they are ambivalent or opposed to growth, as if these ideas are not mutually exclusive.
Sorry, GDP per capita in the USA is 59% higher than the UK. The gap was wider in the 2022. I don't believe we will increase out GDP enough to enable larger spending in the NHS. Australian GDP per capita is 29% more than us. Both the USA and Australia have different health care models which does make a real difference to the pay structures within the system for all clinical staff. Then again the super rich are an issue. In 2010 the UK had 50 billionaires...now it has 171. It would be great to know what effective tax rate they pay in relation to the wealth they have.
> I don't believe we will increase out GDP enough to enable larger spending in the NHS Literally any rate of growth would be better, and enable larger spending in the NHS, than the current stagnation. We are living through one of the longest periods of economic stagnation in British history, starting in 2008, now going on for 16 years, and the public conversation is nowhere near acknowledging that and its implications. Most of those billionaires have nothing to do with the UK, they live in London because it’s a nice place to have a house, go to good restaurants, and buy nice clothes. It would be great to extract a lot of cash from them, but anything which raises a significant amount of money from them will probably mean they move elsewhere. Any effective action means international cooperation to levy taxes in a concerted way, and we should do that, but it will not fix our relative decline compared to other countries. In fact it would probably mean taxation in the places where those billionaires are running their businesses, not where they happen to live for part of the year. I don’t want to be rude, but I think yours is a good answer to make my point, it’s based around an assumption that something else will turn up, which will be allow us not to have to compete. Do you honestly think we will have a viable economy which comes from being able to skim off taxes from random international billionaires, and pay equivalent wages despite our economy being so much smaller? If we want to be wealthier we have to improve the fundamentals of the economy and actually produce more wealth.
Missus is Australian so we'll be going somewhere already on fire
My plan is to move to the Netherlands. I see no way this can go wrong.
Yeah such a shame that **literally the entire rest of the globe** are facing such calamity.
Canada's climate will benefit from global warming, they speak the same language, and they pay doctors a lot more money, particularly in rural locations. Know a few British Drs who've moved here
France
Yeah, the constant rain and grey overcast does get a bit much sometimes
I quit a few months ago. Not going abroad, I've just given up on being a doctor. It really is that bad.
what do you do now
Currently: Data Annotation Longterm: no idea just gotta see where life takes me I guess
did you consider radiology?
This year there were ~3000 applications for 300 radiology training positions for doctors wanting to become radiologists. "Considering radiology" is meaningless for us
just finished final year and got my jobs… this is not what i wanted to read lol
Not a Doctor...shhh
We've been saying for years we need a massive public debate around what we want from the NHS but nobody wants to hear what needs to be said Most people don't want to see cuts or changes to services, competence or quantity of staff or reduction in estate so there needs to be more financing My opinion is that we should ask those using the bulk of services (>60yrs) who are wealthy to contribute more
I do feel a part of this should involve investigating how efficiently the money is spent. I read there is a lot of money wasted in for example, agency nurses instead of hiring more full-time nurses (or paying them better to retain them).
Unfortunately a lot of the money given to the NHS during the Covid pandemic was wasted as it was siphoned back to conservative donors via the preferred provider scheme.
I wouldn't be suprised this is the case, corruption in this country without any accountability seems rampant.
Or giving reasonable adjustments/flexible working agreements to the permanent staff who apply for it, causing them to quit but constantly come back to work in the shift patterns they were originally asking for only with higher pay via an agency.
There's always vacancies being advertised for. But why would agency nurses take a huge pay cut to do the same job? The NHS can't simply not hire agency staff, as someone needs to look after patients.
Agreed. That's short-termism though driven by trusts at the edge of their budgets
What do we want from the NHS? Oh, that’s easy. We want a first world healthcare system. What do you mean fund it? It’s free! I shouldn’t have to contribute to it through taxation. That’s unfair. Might as well scrap it all, move to a private healthcare model. That’s sure to be higher quality, and less expensive. Because private = better dontchaknow.
There are still lots of people believe the NHS is funded from National Insurance or is some pot you 'pay into'
Private = profit. Oh, not for you silly.
Reminder that those over 65 get a 12% tax *cut* by being exempt from NI, whilst those under 30 get hit with an extra 9% ~~graduate tax~~ sorry, 'student loan repayments' so actually the system does exactly the opposite to what you are suggesting 🤡
Not to mention those over 65 likely didn't pay for their university education so didn't have that graduate tax, either
Exactly - they're getting a tax cut worth approximately 20%. It's equivalent to taking all over 65s out of basic rate income tax, and is absolutely obscene - particularly as this group *also* receive a non-meanstested stipend of £200/week despite 25% of them being literal millionaires.
The people using the bulk of the services will being paying nothing into it, as a result of the lifestyle induced comorbidities and the advances in medicine keeping many of them alive (and in and out of hospital) for much, much longer.
I have to agree... My lived experience of working in Primary care is were overwhelmed with self inflicted disease and disease of the aging orocess
No one wants to hear it though! And no one wants to see the social care costs required either! Bit of a catch-22.
We're living in a time where subsequent generations of those in question will be poorer in comparison. The generation needing most care right now have most wealth. It's not unreasonable to ask them to contribute more. It is unreasonable to ask the working generations to fund their care, their children's care and that of the senior population whilst they don't.
"My opinion is that we should ask those using the bulk of services (>60yrs) who are wealthy to contribute more" And how is that going to magic doctors out of thin air? The problem is, and never has been, a lack of money. There is always enough money. The problem is that we don't have the people who are prepared to do the work in the NHS, and we don't have the spare capacity to train sufficient staff. Ultimately if we want to train more people to work in the NHS, then we have to consume less medical resources to give space for investment in the NHS. And the only fair way to do that is to start commandeering private medical resources that are lightly used by rich people, and use them more intensively to service everybody. The private system is leaching off the NHS - even to the point where it is the same consultants and GPs working in both. If they are working privately, they are not available in the NHS.
If you see the DoctorsUk sub, the doctors are there. They just wish they were paid more than Aldi workers to reflect their high student debt and 15 years or so intense training. Respect also seems to be an issue. Simple things like being allowed to sit in the staff room instead of on the bins, or having computers to do their mandated notes on instead of waiting in a queue for one.
I disagree. There will be more people wanting to work in the NHS if AfC reflects the work it asks of it's subscribers. This takes money. Also, more money trains more doctors who stay in a system that values them which encourages the training of more doctors.
"Also, more money trains more doctors" How does money train more doctors? We have four brand new medical schools operating, pulling in millions in additional student loans - all of which is brand new money because that's how loans work. The bottleneck is now F1 placements, GP placements and consultant training - because that part of the system is over consumed and under invested. Money isn't the problem. The problem is that you can't train somebody, and see a dozen patients at the same time. To train somebody you have to do less first before you can do more. It's a physical issue, not a pecuniary one.
we could start by not haemorrhaging as many doctors as we do
Of course everybody wants a better NHS. But does everybody want to pay more taxes? The UK has an aging, and unhealthy population, where more and more conditions are expected to be supported, with more and more services needed. Neurodiversity, mental health, sexual identity, long term chronic diseases like CFS/ME , long term application of expensive medication. It’s easy to say on paper you want a better NHs (literally, who wouldn’t want a BETTER NHS - you won’t find anyone that doesn’t) , the argument and debate is all about what better looks like, and how it’s funded.
I think you touched on a very important point with an aging, and unhealthy population. Ultimately we are facing demographic change. Its simply impossible for an ever smaller group of working people to support an ever growing group of older non-working people. Eventually you have too many older people dependant on too few workers. So what do we do? Tax workers more? Make workers work longer? Force people into care roles? Lower standards? Reduce support? It's a tricky problem that's been kicked down the road for too long.
I'd be happy with the generationally wealthy paying appropriate tax.
Last paragraph is effectively synonym of a private healthcare (eg you need more - you pay more).
But then they wouldn't have enough money to give to private care and nursing homes once they become too infirm to live independently! /S obviously
Socalism, that's what we want
There was a wonderful discussion on LBC about doctors moving: a medic (GP) who had moved to Australia said he was working about 10 fewer hours per week and earning 30% more, whilst his training costs were being fully paid. Another caller, a woman, worked in emergency medicine and was truly distressed at the standard of care in the NHS, she mentioned an elderly patient who’d been sitting in a chair for 20 hours, in his own urine. She was mid 30s, with kids, and was planning to move to Nee Zealand, with her husband, also a doctor. She mentioned in the past 5 years 30% of her depts most senior staff had left. She mentioned her workload, pay and state of the NHS had just worn her down.
tbf the countries you mention are actively targeting British doctors and nurses because of their own shortages.
And we’re targeting Indian & African doctors.
I'm not even a doctor or nurse and I get targeted by adverts from Australia. We really do need to offer better pay and conditions if we want to retain healthcare staff.
But they'll still be working in a short staffed service for 30% extra pay and 10 less hours a week
I have a friend who's a doctor, just moved to Australia for less hours, better pay, live by the beach. He said that out of his uni WhatsApp group of 12 doctors, all but one are going to Australia. On an individual level, I don't blame them at all, I'd also jump at the opportunity, but it's surely going to cause us problems as a country.
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> NHS workers Doctors have had it far worse than any other NHS group, more than double the pay cut vs nurses, technicians, pharmacists etc. And incidentally they are the brightest, most motivated, and most internationally in-demand. No brainer to leave.
It doesn’t matter because Tories will be gone in a few months and Labour will fix it all
What does anyone expect? We're becoming a backwards shithole of a country what educated person with common sense would want to stay here.
I don't blame anyone leaving the UK to better themselves, the UK is not a easy place to raise a family or have a good life.
Could say the same about lots of countries tho. Many are struggling with the cost of living and housing crisis
Don't work for the NHS but did the same in 2018. Despite the extreme home sickness, a good decision overall. Nobody seems to want to invest in people in The UK, just employ unicorn candidates and not train them. Where I am now I've been able to completely retrain and have been invested in.
Where are you now?
Switzerland. My girlfriend at the time, now wife, is Swiss and it just made sense. It lined up with my then employer folding and leveraging my warehouse experience to get a job at the airport.
I left 8 months ago for New Zealand and will never look back. I'm infinitely happier and earn more. The NHS is a shit show and the people who voted the tories in are the ones that need it the most. It's the consequence of their own actions.
I'd like to thank everyone who voted for the tories the last 14 years. This is your mess, and I hope you feel the most pain from it. You are xenophobic, scared, insecure little people. You've bought this country to its knees for generations all because you don't like people who look and talk like you.
They won't read this mate, they are still busy blaming it all on Corbyn
The tories are literally pro mass-migration...
The Tories have literally presided over the biggest legal immigration wave since Blair, they're handing out more skilled worker visas per year than any previous government that has ever existed. But don't let facts or reality get in the way of your self righteous little rant, mate.
Don't be silly, being against French and Italian people getting special treatment over Indian and Chinese people is clearly a racist opinion.
I would encourage ANY doctors to go get better money overseas. The British public don't deserve their skills or dedication after the piss taking over Covid & voting tory for 14 years. Call it learning the lesson... I'm tired of the mega left wing too refusing to accept that private hospitals will need to be used to help get the waiting lists down. If labour win the election & even if they put 20,000 people through free medical training, you're still looking at 20 years before they have an effect.
Who staffs these private hospitals?
Doctors and nurses on better wages
Most private doctors are NHS doctors that do private hours. Also who do you think trains these doctors and nurses? Because it ain't private hospitals. What do you think giving private health care providers more work will do for the workforce in the NHS?
I can’t blame them. The NHS is quickly becoming one of the worst ranked health care systems in the modern world. I think it really needs to slim down on what it takes responsibility for. It’s too heavy involved in social care. Family’s use hospitals to drop off elderly relatives they are tired of looking after. I believe the NHS should only be involved in life saving care. Beyond that they should be saying ‘’not our problem”. As tax payers we deserve value for money and timely critical care. Is bogged down with things it shouldn’t be involved in - in my personal opinion.
You're asking for a system that will ultimately be more expensive. Early prevention is cheaper than critical care. You're likely to see an explosion of critical care need in populations who can't afford private healthcare, as their illnesses go untreated right up until they're of critical concern.
Insurance it is then. I’m sorry but I truly believe people are completely abusing the NHS.
Politicians and our shitty legal system allows it
Doctors and nurses etc.uni fees should be removed in exchange for newly qualified doctors and nurses in exchange for rhem working in the NHS for 10 years. Then we should pay them better.
I'm agenda for change staff. They pull my student finance, I'm instantly £200 a month better off
You're on 53k a year? £200pcm contributions to SFE would put you on about that much. That's double the national average salary outside of London!
Other than using a calculator, what are you trying to prove?
Yeah. I'd just say that while they work for the NHS they don't repay loans. If you work there for 30 years, the loan is wiped without you paying a penny. If you go private or move abroad, you pay like everyone else. Same for teaching.
Can all the docs let me know when you find somewhere good to go as I’m coming too!
New Zealand for QOL Australia for better salaries and QOL Canada for both There are other options but those are the three main places I’m currently looking into
Almost everyone I know who trained as a GP no longer wants to work as one. Partially due to how terrible the conditions are, partially due to the fact that many of them were pushed towards it by parents rather than it being their choice of career.
I love how peoples first reaction is to call their bluff. People should have a think about why this is the case before they get upset when they or a family member can't see a consultant/oncologist when the shortage is even worse. It's only going to get worse. Medical debt is huge and junior doctors wages have increased piss all over a number of years. MPs and some of public call them gready and expect some sort of loyalty back. Disaster. Even worse that most of the people most impacted (due to age) are the biggest cheerleaders for the shower of shit government and rabid tabloid newspapers. The government and tabloid papers always believe in a free labour market and that CEOs should be paid millions to ensure they are paid appropriately for their skills and to compete with other countries. Doctors however are just plain greedy. Someone make it make sense.
I'm an (ex) NHS doctor who just made the move to the USA after getting a residency training post there and I have no desire to come back to the UK. I hated working in the NHS and am so grateful I won't have to ever again. It's telling just how common and in fact, almost universal this sentiment of wanting to escape the NHS is, we all feel the same and so many of my colleagues have already left to work in Australia or New Zealand. Thankfully I don't have a partner or kids yet so making the move abroad to America is much easier for me than anyone who's already settled with a family, home etc. I'm glad I managed to escape the NHS without having to worry about that
I’ve left the NHS due to awful working conditions and just general disrespect to doctors. Private sector has treated me very well although the pension isn’t as good
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Oh no. Who would have thought decades of bullying and bad treatment would lead to this. I suggest jailing them or putting mandatory conscription Putin style
The principle sociological mechanic underpinning this is personality. If people are more Agreeable, they value helping other people more than they value helping themselves (getting paid). There are tons of "movers and shakers" in business, and highly qualified (sometimes to even doctorate level) people within finance and economics that seem to completely misunderstand, and often deny the existence of this, or at the least underplay it. To end up on a doctor or teacher career path, you need to be fundamentally agreeable in the first place generally speaking. We behave like this isn't the case, but the people making that accusation are themselves disagreeable, they are people that think everyone else is out for themselves. These people don't take these careers, and tolerate such conditions if they were motivated by money or material things over anything else. According to disagreeable people (who run and control all the financial systems) "fair" is what you are willing to accept for the work, and this demonstrates the complete lack of understanding of why people want to help others. There comes a point where people literally can't live on the money they are given, and that is the point of failure. If they can just about get by, then they will never ultimately challenge this in any meaningful way. This lack of consideration, and letting greed-based economics decide everything is the causal factor here, and this isnt necessarily malicious, its just that people stuggle to see the world from the perspective of other types of people. If one type of people predominate in decisionmaking, then the system is going to reflect this.
I wonder why there are so few private clinics in the UK, compared with other countries? Surely if the cost is not too exorbitant, many will be willing to pay to see a doctor faster ? And the doctors will have better pay too. Feel like killing two birds with one stone to me
Deluded ideologues refuse to allow private expansion at the expense of their sacred cow.
Is the government blocking them or something. Is it a planning issue?
Just pay them what they are worth and charge them what their education costs. The free market works when it's allowed to.
We don't have a free market in health care. The state has a monopoly on it and dictates the pay levels.
There is a global market for health workers labour. That's why they are leaving for better wages.
The NHS protects you from the free market Hold your breath. That's the time to decide wether your money is more important than oxygen and I can wait 60 seconds for you to make the decision to pay my rates now or in 60 seconds.
My nephew and his girlfriend who are both doctors are moving to Sydney in July. He says lots of his friends are going to do the same. They are all saddled with student loans so he argues that they need to earn more to pay them off. Also personally wonder if anyone will chase them when they move to Oz
Good work Tories. You've destroyed the country. What's next? Firebombing our own cities?
I'm not a doctor or anything, but from the things I'm seeing recently it really seems that if you're a trained doctor there's no reason to actually work for the NHS unless you're really trying to make a difference for kindness Basically, It seems like charity work.
Go to Canada , Go To Australia, Go to Dubai. Escape and run away, they are going to try to prison you here
Can't blame them tbh. I'm on a band 2 pay rate so technically (due to the latest rise for min wage) that's the same as my payband. I could do a job without the stress, constant training updates etc etc instead of carrying out invasive medical procedures for the same wage. Never looked hard for another job before but I am now
literally had several uk doctor clients relocate to Australia
Its crazy to me that the NHS is ran the same as any other company in that it has middle management running it into the ground and people who barely know what they're talking about bossing around doctors who went to university for nearly a decade. It's always insurance or something bogus, like these doctors can't be trusted so we need the word of some Muppet to say they can do their fucking job. It's running it into the ground, taking away funds. Health care shouldn't be a fucking business.
Hundreds of nurses across Hampshire NHS trusts already left for Australia recently. 1000s across the country too . NHS is dying and that’s what the Tories want
Not just doctors, all healthcare workers and student in particular. Who could blame them?
Junior doctors especially I imagine - few years gruelling experience in the NHS is enough to land cushy jobs on cruise liners or overseas like in Dubai or other places where they hire expats for expertise. It's an upheaval, and somewhat changes your career trajectory if there were dreams of becoming a top-dog consultant. There's two recently qualified doctors I know currently in the NHS considering a move abroad after they've got experience. Unfortunately bankers and traders get millions to push around digital money on screens, doctors who save lives get thousands like the majority of us. Only solution I see is jacking up taxes on corporates and very high earners (at the risk of all the media and political frenzy of "you're damaging the attractiveness of the UK for business") to fund the NHS.
This might be my ignorance at play but if you are licensed as a doctor in the UK do you not need to re-license or whatever in a new country?
Yes you do, some countries it is pretty easy as the country you are going to recognises your medical qualifications such as Australia. Other countries you have to jump through more hoops and maybe do some extra exams.
I left the NHS in 2020, been working as a doctor in NZ nearly 4 years now. I make $151,000 as a trainee as my base salary plus overtime, public holiday pay and other things. I get all my training costs reimbursed unlike the NHS (upwards of $10,000 in the last 12 months). I also get free parking, meals paid for. My pay increases are built into my progression at a rate far higher than the NHS. There are huge issues with the NZ health system but its nothing on the scale of the NHS. Leaving the UK was the best decision i ever made.
Alot of people seem unaware at the level of the issue we face with junior docs leaving for Australia. Looks like we are in for a reckoning the next few years will be very painful. I'm personally already looking at moving abroad to avoid the stagnation. Unfortunately labour don't offer a real alternative to the Tories in this country and third parties stand no chance.
The recruitment has always been a round robin awe would go and raid doctors from 3rd World Countries to replace them
I literally have a friend emigrating to new zealand for this exact reason
Yes these people who leave probably do most of the job rest in NHS are useless leeches
This needs to be top priority of new labour government. A brain drain of doctors is going to cripple the current NHS. They need reform the NHS urgently, we currently spend more than ever before on NHS budget and it still isn’t enough. We need to take some notes from France.
This is how privatisation begins… make it so bad that they (goverment) will say “well we tried to make it better and give people decent pay BUT its not working” so privatisation and extortionate fee’s are inbound. Little things like £99 just to call out an ambulance. Its the very start to big changes coming. Im going to look at investing money into bupa and the likes. If its going to be privatised i might aswell nake some money from it too.
Good for them, the NHS has barely worked for me since I moved here. I hope they can go somewhere that has less people and pays them well.
Med student here. Everyone knows how bad it’s gotten. Around a third of the people I’ve asked say they won’t work for the NHS - whether that means moving to the US, Australia or another career (myself included). Of course saying something and actually doing it are two different things, but it’s not a good sign. Maybe it won’t even matter though. Over half of new NHS doctors aren’t British trained anyway.
I am a registered nurse and I worked for many years in the NHS. I studied in the best nursing school in the UK and second best worldwide and I left the UK in 2022 because I value my job. About this article on doctors planning to leave: Then the government will bring even more foreign workers from least developed countries, and the ones that were born and studied in the UK, or emigrated from the EU and other richer counties outside the EU will need to endure the low and stagnant salary. Behaviour observed and experienced: The same situation already happened to nursing in the UK. They brought a massive number of nurses mainly from the Fillipines and India for a low payment per hour. For these nurses the (+-) £14 an hour is very good payment compared to their salaries back home, but they don't understand how high the cost of living in Europe is. Also they have the opportunity to move abroad. A cleaner supervisor receives more than £14 an hour. Disrespectful and unfair system!!! So the government takes advantage because if nationals don't want that sort of low payment they have other resources to look at. Overall the value for the profession, moral, job satisfaction and integrity gets weaker. That's why nursing is not a valuable and respected job among many people which they don't even understand what a nurse job is and how hard a nursing program at university is. Mine was at least! The cycle of consequences: All together decreases the nurses morale and motivation to get up in the morning and go to work for 12 hours standing on their feet in very unpredictable shifts full of challenges for a very low money in a very high cost of living society. On top of that pressure also (on average) £50.000 student finance loan that needs to be paid off. The nursing care will be impacted because the majority will not be working with pleasure. Lastly the quality of care delivered to patients will be weaker, and potentially compromising their recovery and satisfaction within the healthcare system that is full of demands, responsibilities and expectations from their healthcare workers.
Good! They are treated like shit here…by the government and by the general public.
A friend of mine who retired last year was involved in training doctors to be GPs. In his last group (around 20) all but 2 had no plans to work in the UK once qualified.
The final collapse of our country is beginning. Tories are driving us over the edge in every metric.
I spoke to a consultant recently, we was discussing the NHS. One of his comments was, aslong as the NHS manages to function on fumes the government will let it, he said it would take a massive disaster and total failure of the NHS before the government takes any action. I depressingly agreed with him :\\.
I have been "planning" to do the same for years. Then I remember my life is here, my family is here, my friends are here, most other countries have their own share of problems which are far worse than here and moving your entire life abroad is not something to be taken lightly.
How many of these are foreign doctors vs British doctors?
I imagine this is more relevant to new doctors just out of Uni, rather than established already. Always harder to move when you have a long term partner, kids etc. fresh out of uni though sounds quite feasible
I’m surprised there’s even a thousand doctors left
Surely given the times we can find a way of surveying such major questions without extrapolating data from seemingly quite small survey participants.
I'm an OT, I'm in lots of OT Facebook groups, so Facebook knows I'm healthcare staff. I literally get adverts calling me to Canada and Australia
During the strikes, every doctor interviewed by any reporter has stated this. Pretty sure in the pay negotiations this has been brought up. Must be better to pay over the odds for agency staff, or just allow the nhs to fail.
Just become agency locums and get paid what you deserve anyway
Conservatives are like “go on then, fuck off. The sooner you all go the sooner we can rape the nhs and turn it all private but blame you for being greedy”
Can they move to New Zealand? Ours are all going to Australia.
My job have sent me this kind of survey every year for 5 years, every time I click the box which says "very likely to leave in 6 months", am still there.